Author Topic: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy  (Read 3676 times)

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Offline mike

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Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« on: December 09, 2009, 11:54:44 AM »
Quote
The 2nd round pan-Orthodox meeting opens today in Chemin de Chambésy in Switzerland, in preparation for the first pan-Orthodox Synod of the modern era. The first round last June, dealt with the issue of the Orthodox Diaspora, namely the management and jurisdiction of the Orthodox Churches founded by the Diaspora. This question has caused friction between Constantinople and Moscow, especially after the collapse of communist regimes and the subsequent massive migration of Eastern peoples outside their national borders. Until then, the Orthodox flock was under the jurisdiction of their national church, and the Diaspora under that of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, according to the current canons of the Eastern Church.

The first meeting in June decided on the creation of Episcopal conferences in the countries of the Diaspora, who will refer to Constantinople; in today's meeting - which will last one week - the issue of autonomy and the autocephalous nature of the Orthodox Churches will be discussed . In short the debate will centre of the cannons to define and accept the autonomy and autocephalous status of the new Churches within the spectrum of the Orthodox world.   The meeting aims to resolve issues that have emerged in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the consequent emergence of new nation states, whose churches have sought independence from the Patriarchate of Moscow, demanding so a return to the status they had before the birth of' USSR.

In a statement released yesterday the desire to end anomalies that have arisen over the course of time, largely due to historical junctures and the consequent pastoral needs of Orthodox flock, was expressed. The deep desire of Bartholomew I to proceed quickly in order to convene the first major pan-Orthodox Synod of the modern era was also noted.

In a homily he delivered on the feast of St. Andrew, November 30th in Istanbul, Bartholomew I focused on relations between the Orthodox churches and the Church of Rome. According to experts, the Patriarch has sent significant and important signals to the interested parties.

Regarding relations between the Orthodox Churches, Bartholomew said that "the role of Constantinople is one established by the canons of the Ecumenical Synods. It lies in the diaconate, having the responsibility for the coordination and expression of unanimity of the Orthodox Churches”. "Our primary goal - he continued - is the unity of Orthodoxy, because only then can there be witnesses to the truth of the Gospel in a modern world beset by many problems of many kinds. In this work of diaconate, the Church of Constantinople is forced to operate with great difficulty, because of the current context well known to all, but [it] finds solidarity in the Church of Old Rome, first of all, to whom we turn with loving thoughts at this time. "

The patriarch did not spare criticism of those in the Orthodox world who are against dialogue with the Church of Rome, saying that dialogue alone is the only way to peace and unity. "The peaceful adjustment of differences in relations between Christians - continued Bartholomew - does not mean detachment from the truth. Truth is not afraid of dialogue, but instead uses dialogue as a means to gain acceptance from those who have reservations. Arrogance and fanaticism causes the hardening of positions taken and entrenchment can only lead to a dead end. "

"Besides - concluded the Ecumenical Patriarch - dispassionate study without preconditions, will help us to understand the structure of the universal Church that was united  the 1st millennium, and will also help us to understand our mistakes in the 2nd millennium."

Meanwhile in recent days very important news has emerged. At the suggestion of Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan, there is the possibility of granting citizenship to the metropolitans of the Turkish Diaspora. This fact satisfies the ecumenical will of Bartholomew and unlocks the door to the possibility that in future a bishop who now resides outside of Turkey may be elected Ecumenical Patriarch. According to current rules, only those who have Turkish citizenship have the right to be elected to the patriarchal throne. Until now 20 metropolitans of the Diaspora have already applied for Turkish citizenship. In the eventual granting of Turkish citizenship to metropolitans of the Diaspora diplomatic circles see the first proof of the sincere will of the Erdogan government to be open to minorities. In fact, it must also be remembered that in mid-December the European Union will examine progress made by Ankara in its march towards Europe.

source

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 11:57:27 AM »
Lord have mercy!
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 12:07:05 PM »
The 2nd round pan-Orthodox meeting opens today in Chemin de Chambésy in Switzerland, in preparation for the first pan-Orthodox Synod of the modern era. The first round last June, dealt with the issue of the Orthodox Diaspora, namely the management and jurisdiction of the Orthodox Churches founded by the Diaspora. This question has caused friction between Constantinople and Moscow, especially after the collapse of communist regimes and the subsequent massive migration of Eastern peoples outside their national borders. Until then, the Orthodox flock was under the jurisdiction of their national church, and the Diaspora under that of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, according to the current canons of the Eastern Church.

It is just this revisionism that gets the EP in trouble.

Quote
The first meeting in June decided on the creation of Episcopal conferences in the countries of the Diaspora, who will refer to Constantinople; in today's meeting - which will last one week - the issue of autonomy and the autocephalous nature of the Orthodox Churches will be discussed . In short the debate will centre of the cannons to define and accept the autonomy and autocephalous status of the new Churches within the spectrum of the Orthodox world.   The meeting aims to resolve issues that have emerged in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the consequent emergence of new nation states, whose churches have sought independence from the Patriarchate of Moscow, demanding so a return to the status they had before the birth of' USSR.

Before the Bolsheviks, they were part of the Russian Orthodox Church.  I don't think the Catholicos of Georgia wants that.


Quote
In a statement released yesterday the desire to end anomalies that have arisen over the course of time, largely due to historical junctures and the consequent pastoral needs of Orthodox flock, was expressed. The deep desire of Bartholomew I to proceed quickly in order to convene the first major pan-Orthodox Synod of the modern era was also noted.

In a homily he delivered on the feast of St. Andrew, November 30th in Istanbul, Bartholomew I focused on relations between the Orthodox churches and the Church of Rome. According to experts, the Patriarch has sent significant and important signals to the interested parties.

Regarding relations between the Orthodox Churches, Bartholomew said that "the role of Constantinople is one established by the canons of the Ecumenical Synods. It lies in the diaconate, having the responsibility for the coordination and expression of unanimity of the Orthodox Churches”. "Our primary goal - he continued - is the unity of Orthodoxy, because only then can there be witnesses to the truth of the Gospel in a modern world beset by many problems of many kinds. In this work of diaconate, the Church of Constantinople is forced to operate with great difficulty, because of the current context well known to all, but [it] finds solidarity in the Church of Old Rome, first of all, to whom we turn with loving thoughts at this time. "

The patriarch did not spare criticism of those in the Orthodox world who are against dialogue with the Church of Rome, saying that dialogue alone is the only way to peace and unity. "The peaceful adjustment of differences in relations between Christians - continued Bartholomew - does not mean detachment from the truth. Truth is not afraid of dialogue, but instead uses dialogue as a means to gain acceptance from those who have reservations. Arrogance and fanaticism causes the hardening of positions taken and entrenchment can only lead to a dead end. "

"Besides - concluded the Ecumenical Patriarch - dispassionate study without preconditions, will help us to understand the structure of the universal Church that was united  the 1st millennium, and will also help us to understand our mistakes in the 2nd millennium."

Meanwhile in recent days very important news has emerged. At the suggestion of Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan, there is the possibility of granting citizenship to the metropolitans of the Turkish Diaspora. This fact satisfies the ecumenical will of Bartholomew and unlocks the door to the possibility that in future a bishop who now resides outside of Turkey may be elected Ecumenical Patriarch. According to current rules, only those who have Turkish citizenship have the right to be elected to the patriarchal throne. Until now 20 metropolitans of the Diaspora have already applied for Turkish citizenship. In the eventual granting of Turkish citizenship to metropolitans of the Diaspora diplomatic circles see the first proof of the sincere will of the Erdogan government to be open to minorities. In fact, it must also be remembered that in mid-December the European Union will examine progress made by Ankara in its march towards Europe.



Can Russians apply?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 12:07:52 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline mike

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2009, 01:38:38 PM »
Here you got some pictures (clik on them to enlarge): http://www.cerkiew.pl/index.php?id=345&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=12234&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1&cHash=3afd895893

Offline mike

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 12:13:47 PM »
Some photos from the DL: http://www.cerkiew.pl/index.php?id=345&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=12242&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1&tx_ttnews[nphoto]=1&cHash=f86ab8f9bc

Offline Basil 320

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 05:20:18 PM »
Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy,
Kyrie Elieson, Kyrie Elieson, Kyrie Elieson,
Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord hav mercy,
Kyrie Elieson, Kyrie Elieson, Kyrie Elieson.
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Offline AntonI

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 06:54:45 AM »
An update:

http://www.dveri.bg/content/blogcategory/19/33/

Basically, in respect of the autocephalous argument, there seems to be a split between Greeks and non-Greeks as to what do do - the former want the EP to have more say whereas the latter want, as far as I can make it out, conciliarism in deciding when a daughter-Church becomes a sister-Church.

Apparently, the Church of Cyprus has indicated that it wishes to be raised to the rank of a patriarchate and the Church of Georgia wishes to be raised to the fifth rank in the diptychs, replacing the Church of Russia.

On a lighter note, the article does note that all the delegates are smiling in the picture...




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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 09:47:02 AM »
Thank you for the information, which I haven't seen elseware.

I hope they can respectfully disagree and not become excessively argumentative, asserting the disputes outside of the Pre-Conciliar process, such as having the churches make proclamations of the assertions of these new claims, that are surprising to me, i.e. Cyprus and Georgia.
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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 11:19:46 AM »
Thank you for the information, which I haven't seen elseware.

I hope they can respectfully disagree and not become excessively argumentative, asserting the disputes outside of the Pre-Conciliar process, such as having the churches make proclamations of the assertions of these new claims, that are surprising to me, i.e. Cyprus and Georgia.

I can see the Georgian claim, i.e. it is an ancient Patriarchate like the first four.  However I think the experience of having its autocephaly "abolished" by the Russian Holy Governing Synod, and present tensions lie behind this (with justification).

And I second the thanks.  When do offficial statements come out?

Other things which may be related: the Patriarchate of Moscow has sent a letter to the President of OCL, which states "...In 1970, the Russian Orthodox Church deemed it timely to grant the (autocephalous) status to its metropolia in North America. In this way, it continued the cause of St. Tikhon for building an independent church structure in the North American continent to be based on local rather than ethnic principle[s/].  I would like to wish you good health and spiritual and physical strength in your service of the unity of Orthodoxy in America."
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/moscow-clarifies-its-position-on-orthodoxy-in-america/

The EP has also "requested" that every bishop in "Diaspora" sign over a property to him "irreversibly" in the name of “Ecumenical Patriarch, instituted according to the International Law whose See is in Constantinople (Istanbul).”
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/patriarchate-asks-for-title-to-u-s-church-property/

« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 11:20:16 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 03:15:22 PM »
Thank you for the information, which I haven't seen elseware.

I hope they can respectfully disagree and not become excessively argumentative, asserting the disputes outside of the Pre-Conciliar process, such as having the churches make proclamations of the assertions of these new claims, that are surprising to me, i.e. Cyprus and Georgia.

I can see the Georgian claim, i.e. it is an ancient Patriarchate like the first four.  However I think the experience of having its autocephaly "abolished" by the Russian Holy Governing Synod, and present tensions lie behind this (with justification).

And I second the thanks.  When do offficial statements come out?

Other things which may be related: the Patriarchate of Moscow has sent a letter to the President of OCL, which states "...In 1970, the Russian Orthodox Church deemed it timely to grant the (autocephalous) status to its metropolia in North America. In this way, it continued the cause of St. Tikhon for building an independent church structure in the North American continent to be based on local rather than ethnic principle[s/].  I would like to wish you good health and spiritual and physical strength in your service of the unity of Orthodoxy in America."
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/moscow-clarifies-its-position-on-orthodoxy-in-america/

The EP has also "requested" that every bishop in "Diaspora" sign over a property to him "irreversibly" in the name of “Ecumenical Patriarch, instituted according to the International Law whose See is in Constantinople (Istanbul).”
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/patriarchate-asks-for-title-to-u-s-church-property/



It seems to me that the Patriarchate of Constantinople is trying to kill two birds with one stone: (1) advance a secular claim to ecumenical status (under international law--I don't have a clue what this may be, but I guess it is based on the premise of "an oft repeated claim.."), and (b) advance a real property based presence in the "diaspora."  This is getting really weird, when it is considered in the context of Orthodox Holy Tradition.

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 03:28:51 PM »
The EP has also "requested" that every bishop in "Diaspora" sign over a property to him "irreversibly" in the name of “Ecumenical Patriarch, instituted according to the International Law whose See is in Constantinople (Istanbul).”
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/patriarchate-asks-for-title-to-u-s-church-property/

You'll have to pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical of the claims of the writer, since he's had a seemingly-perpetual axe to grind against anything GOA-related.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 03:54:14 PM »
The EP has also "requested" that every bishop in "Diaspora" sign over a property to him "irreversibly" in the name of “Ecumenical Patriarch, instituted according to the International Law whose See is in Constantinople (Istanbul).”
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/patriarchate-asks-for-title-to-u-s-church-property/

You'll have to pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical of the claims of the writer, since he's had a seemingly-perpetual axe to grind against anything GOA-related.

Patriarchate Asks for Title to U.S. Church Property


Front Page
   •   Theodore Kalmoukos   •   December 12, 2009, 01:20 PM BOSTON - The Ecumenical Patriarchate – in an official letter recently sent to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and its local Metropolises - requested the official transfer of the owners...
http://www.thenationalherald.com/
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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2009, 03:57:24 PM »
The EP has also "requested" that every bishop in "Diaspora" sign over a property to him "irreversibly" in the name of “Ecumenical Patriarch, instituted according to the International Law whose See is in Constantinople (Istanbul).”
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/patriarchate-asks-for-title-to-u-s-church-property/

You'll have to pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical of the claims of the writer, since he's had a seemingly-perpetual axe to grind against anything GOA-related.

Patriarchate Asks for Title to U.S. Church Property


Front Page
   •   Theodore Kalmoukos   •   December 12, 2009, 01:20 PM BOSTON - The Ecumenical Patriarchate – in an official letter recently sent to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and its local Metropolises - requested the official transfer of the owners...
http://www.thenationalherald.com/

Same article, just in the original source rather than re-printed on the aoiusa website.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2009, 04:06:11 PM »
The EP has also "requested" that every bishop in "Diaspora" sign over a property to him "irreversibly" in the name of “Ecumenical Patriarch, instituted according to the International Law whose See is in Constantinople (Istanbul).”
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/patriarchate-asks-for-title-to-u-s-church-property/

You'll have to pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical of the claims of the writer, since he's had a seemingly-perpetual axe to grind against anything GOA-related.

Patriarchate Asks for Title to U.S. Church Property


Front Page
   •   Theodore Kalmoukos   •   December 12, 2009, 01:20 PM BOSTON - The Ecumenical Patriarchate – in an official letter recently sent to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and its local Metropolises - requested the official transfer of the owners...
http://www.thenationalherald.com/

Same article, just in the original source rather than re-printed on the aoiusa website.
Conspiracy?  Does Thedore Kalmoukos have an axe?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 04:08:10 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2009, 04:10:19 PM »
Conspiracy?  Does Thedore Kalmoukos have an axe?

I think he does.  Both of your links point to the same article written by the aforementioned Mr. Kalmoukos.  However, while I do indeed think he has an axe to grind (but I don't want to belabor that point), he has at times written good articles that have brought theretofore-unreleased information to the public.

(Oh, now I see what you mean, with the article not appearing on the National Herald's website.  I don't know why they would have done that - they have in the past unreservedly taken shots at the GOA, EP, etc., so there's no reason for them to stop now.)
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline AntonI

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2009, 06:14:18 AM »
The Communique is out (not a direct word-for-word translation):

http://www.dveri.bg/content/view/10499/33/

The Commission has agreed UNANIMOUSLY to adapt the 1993 communique on the issue, namely that with the approval of the Mother-Church, the Ecumenical Patriarch will officially grant autocephaly by issuing a Tomos.  The Tomos will be signed by the Ecumenical Patriarch whose signature signifies the entrance and invitation of the new Sister-Church into the communion of the Orthodox Church,

So basically, this tries to please all and sundry.  I guess if this is eventually adopted by the Pan-Orthodox Synid, it will be the best way to resolve the issue between the Greeks and non-Greeks over this issue.

On a lesser matter, the Georgians will have to wait if they want to discuss moving up the Premium League and the Cypriots will also have to wait if they want to discuss promotion.  No time to discuss the issue and all that jazz.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 06:14:49 AM by AntonI »
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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2009, 10:07:00 AM »
The Communique is out (not a direct word-for-word translation):

http://www.dveri.bg/content/view/10499/33/

The Commission has agreed UNANIMOUSLY to adapt the 1993 communique on the issue, namely that with the approval of the Mother-Church, the Ecumenical Patriarch will officially grant autocephaly by issuing a Tomos.  The Tomos will be signed by the Ecumenical Patriarch whose signature signifies the entrance and invitation of the new Sister-Church into the communion of the Orthodox Church,

So basically, this tries to please all and sundry.  I guess if this is eventually adopted by the Pan-Orthodox Synid, it will be the best way to resolve the issue between the Greeks and non-Greeks over this issue.

On a lesser matter, the Georgians will have to wait if they want to discuss moving up the Premium League and the Cypriots will also have to wait if they want to discuss promotion.  No time to discuss the issue and all that jazz.

So are we to have a papacy all our own? It is of course interesting in that Constantinople wouldn't have autocephaly under the interpretation I am sure it puts on this.

So does the EP decide, and gets the approval of the Mother Church?  Or does the Mother Church decide and the EP issue the Tomos pro forma?

As to the unanimous problem (problem, of course, because an autocephalous Church is not present), the Patriarch of Moscow has just sent a letter reiterating its position on the 1970 OCA Tomos.  Does +Kyrill expect +Batholomew to get his signature stamp out?

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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2009, 01:52:46 PM »
A fuller version:
Quote
The Inter-Orthodox Preparatory Commission, meeting in Chambesy, Switzerland, closed its work on December 16 with a thanksgiving.

The Commission, whose task is to elaborate the agenda of a Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church, continued to consider the problem of autocephaly and ways of declaring it – the discussion which began in 1993, and prepared proposals on autonomy and ways of declaring it.

The documents prepared by the Commission will be submitted to a Pan-Orthodox Pre-Council Conference. They stipulate in particular that the ecclesiological, canonical and pastoral prerequisites for granting autocephaly to a particular church region, if requested, are to be assessed by the Mother Church at her Local Council. If the Council’s decision is favourable, the Mother Church is to notify it to the Ecumenical Patriarchate which is in its turn to inform other Local Autocephalous Churches in order to find out whether there is a pan-Orthodox consensus expressed in the unanimity of Councils or Synods of the autocephalous Churches. Expressing the consent of the Mother Church and the pan-Orthodox consensus, the Ecumenical Patriarch is to declare the autocephaly of a petitioning Church by issuing a Tomos of Autocephaly to be signed by the Ecumenical Patriarch and verified by the signatures of the Primates of Orthodox Churches invited for it by the Ecumenical Patriarch.

The question of the contents of the Tomos and the signing procedure will be considered additionally by the next meeting of the Inter-Orthodox Preparatory Commission.

The Commission has also prepared a document expressing a common position of Orthodox Churches on autonomy and the ways of declaring it, describing the notion of autonomy, the procedure to be observed in declaring autonomy and its consequences.

It was agreed that the initiation and completion of the procedure for granting autonomy to a certain part of its canonical jurisdiction is exclusively under the competence of the respective autocephalous Church. It is noted that in church practice there are different degrees in which an autonomous Church depends on the autocephalous Church that has granted autonomy to it. A petition for autonomy is considered by the autocephalous Church which, having assessed the prerequisites and reasons for this petition and taken a favourable decision, issues an appropriate Tomos defining the territorial boundaries of the autonomous Church and its relationships with the autocephalous Church to which it belongs in accordance with the established criteria of church Tradition. Then the primate of the autocephalous Church notifies the Ecumenical Patriarchate and other autocephalous Orthodox Churches on the declaration of an autonomous Church.

The draft document also provides for measures to find a canonical settlement of an issue in case of differences arising from two autocephalous Churches’ granting the autonomous status to church communities in the same geographical church region.

The question of Diptychs of the Primates of the Local Churches will be considered by the Inter-Orthodox Preparatory Commission at its next meeting.

DECR Communication Service

http://www.mospat.ru/en/2009/12/17/news10309/
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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2009, 01:57:38 PM »
So, in other words, the document is saying that Autocephaly should be granted by a combination of consent of the Mother Church and the Primates of the other Autocephalous Churches?

Astounding.  Sounds like what many of us have been advocating :)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 01:57:47 PM by Fr. George »
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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2009, 01:59:57 PM »
So, in other words, the document is saying that Autocephaly should be granted by a combination of consent of the Mother Church and the Primates of the other Autocephalous Churches?

Astounding.  Sounds like what many of us have been advocating :)

LOL! :D
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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2009, 02:03:02 PM »
Ukrainians were not invited...  :-[
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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2009, 02:17:43 PM »
So, in other words, the document is saying that Autocephaly should be granted by a combination of consent of the Mother Church and the Primates of the other Autocephalous Churches?

Astounding.  Sounds like what many of us have been advocating :)

Not in the Phanar.

The interesting thing would now be what does the EP do with the OCA.  The PoM has just reiterated, again, his position on the OCA Tomos of 1970.  What is advocated here doesn't have history to guide it: repeatedly there have been autocephlous Churches recognized by the Primates of the Other Autocephalous Churches but not the Mother Church, but the OCA situation is the only one where the Mother Church recognizes it and some Primates of the Other Autocephalous Churches do not.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2009, 02:23:16 PM »
Ukrainians were not invited...  :-[
Which ones were supposed to be?  I'd blame the Estonians (the ones from Zaire).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2009, 02:37:44 PM »
So, in other words, the document is saying that Autocephaly should be granted by a combination of consent of the Mother Church and the Primates of the other Autocephalous Churches?

Astounding.  Sounds like what many of us have been advocating :)

Not in the Phanar.

The interesting thing would now be what does the EP do with the OCA.  The PoM has just reiterated, again, his position on the OCA Tomos of 1970.  What is advocated here doesn't have history to guide it: repeatedly there have been autocephlous Churches recognized by the Primates of the Other Autocephalous Churches but not the Mother Church, but the OCA situation is the only one where the Mother Church recognizes it and some Primates of the Other Autocephalous Churches do not.

What will likely be done if the proposal of this session is adopted at the Pan-Orthodox Synod is the EP will then poll the Autocephalous Primates to see what their opinion is.  What's good about bringing the question (and the proposal) up is that they are recognizing that the history of "Autocephaly" is messy at best, but we don't want it to be so messy in the future.
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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2009, 02:50:21 PM »
Ukrainians were not invited...  :-[
We need to be patient. The meeting was about autocephaly and autonomy, and how it is recognised in the Church. To invite all the Churches which claim autocephalous or autonomous statuses which are not recognised yet by some of the Churches universally accepted as having autocephalous status would have thrown up walls in the talks as it would be seen as "demanding" their recognition rather than exploring how the Church should do this. Thus, had the Ukarnians under the EP been invited, it would have been seen as the EP enforcing its will on the talks. No one should be discouraged, neither the Ukrainians nor the OCA for not being invited, instead, they should be encouraged that the Church is seeking to resolve a way of having every Church's status clarified.
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Re: Second pan-Orthodox meeting opens in Chambésy
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2009, 03:25:02 PM »
Ukrainians were not invited...  :-[
We need to be patient. The meeting was about autocephaly and autonomy, and how it is recognised in the Church. To invite all the Churches which claim autocephalous or autonomous statuses which are not recognised yet by some of the Churches universally accepted as having autocephalous status would have thrown up walls in the talks as it would be seen as "demanding" their recognition rather than exploring how the Church should do this. Thus, had the Ukarnians under the EP been invited, it would have been seen as the EP enforcing its will on the talks. No one should be discouraged, neither the Ukrainians nor the OCA for not being invited, instead, they should be encouraged that the Church is seeking to resolve a way of having every Church's status clarified.

Well... this really sounds like words of a wise man.:) Thank you, George.
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