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Fr. George
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« on: December 09, 2009, 09:59:24 AM »

So this particular question has been haranguing my wife for a few months: how to get the baby to sleep through the night w/o introduction of other foods (than her natural stuff)?

She's tried a scheduling method ("Baby wise"), and most recently trying the "give her water when she wakes up at night so she won't wake up any more."  We still need to give that one a few days.

Does anyone else have any "tricks" they've been successful with?
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 10:31:58 AM »

Ignore her. (After first checking that nothing is wrong) This does work, but is very, very, very hard to do the first night, but will take three nights or less to work. 
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 10:39:56 AM »

How old is your little one?  I must admit that we did have to take the approach that AWR mentioned with our second daughter. At some point, a child has to learn that they can't simply cry to get mom/dad to take care of their every whim. It's a balance, they have to know that their parents will be there when they are in need, but they also have to grow up knowing that they have to be independent to some degree. Of course, every baby is different, so I'm not suggesting that this advice would work in every situation. I guess we got lucky in that our first baby slept through the night and we actually had to wake her up in the morning. Our second child did cry sometimes. After we made sure it wasn't something like a dirty diaper, we'd maybe read her a baby book, and then we would usually let her cry herself to sleep. Generally she fell asleep within 10-15 minutes. If 20-25 minutes passed and she was still crying, my wife would hold her for a while, and that usually did the trick.
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 11:24:34 AM »

She turns 6 months tomorrow.  Because of our home set-up, she sleeps in our room, which makes the "ignore" option particularly difficult.  But we can try it...

Oh, and she's teething.  2 teeth have broken through on the bottom.
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 11:50:13 AM »

The ignore method is effective, though heartbreaking.  With our daughter, we made sure she had a dry diaper and was comfortably fed before putting her to bed so she wouldn't be disturbed by hunger or being overly wet.  Keep in mind, too, that sometimes kids just don't sleep through the night until they're ready to do so and it could be any where from 6 months of age to over a year before they can make it through the night.  Also, if she's going through a growth spurt she'll be more likely to wake up hungry no matter if she's managed to sleep the night through before.  The best thing is just to give her some milk and get her back to bed as soon as possible.  It takes a lot of patience and endurance, but you'll get there!

EDIT: Ah yes, teething... that'll keep her up some nights even when she's able to sleep through the night.  With Cait, if she ran a fever when she was cutting a tooth we'd give her a little Tylenol and she'd usually go right back to sleep.  It really helped to have a pacifier for her, too, so she could gnaw on that if she needed to.
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 12:23:09 PM »

She turns 6 months tomorrow.  Because of our home set-up, she sleeps in our room, which makes the "ignore" option particularly difficult.  But we can try it...

Oh, and she's teething.  2 teeth have broken through on the bottom.

Teething double whammy; tylenol works ok, BUT if you can, also get baby oragel (or a storebrand nock-off). When used at the same time the oragel gives instant relief and by the time it wears off the tylenol has kicked in; although our personal experience showed that infant ibuprofin was better at toothache pain.
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 12:39:56 PM »

The ignore method is effective, though heartbreaking.  With our daughter, we made sure she had a dry diaper and was comfortably fed before putting her to bed so she wouldn't be disturbed by hunger or being overly wet.  Keep in mind, too, that sometimes kids just don't sleep through the night until they're ready to do so and it could be any where from 6 months of age to over a year before they can make it through the night.

I was 3 and my cousin was 5 before we slept through the night.

Come to think of it, to this day I have trouble sleeping through the night... I just don't wail about it as I use to!  laugh
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 08:55:18 PM »

Thank you all for the advice, and in advance for any more offered up in this thread.
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 06:53:00 PM »

Update: we slept out in the living room for 4 days (so she would be in her environment, and wouldn't hear us if/when she woke up during the night), and for the last 2 she's not cried for any extended period of time.  Each of the last 2 nights we heard her cry only once, and for less than 30 seconds.  Moving her to another room wasn't an option (space limitations), and besides, we figured we'd try to change as little as possible while getting her to transition to full-night sleep again.

Keep in mind, too, that sometimes kids just don't sleep through the night until they're ready to do so and it could be any where from 6 months of age to over a year before they can make it through the night. 

What kills us is that she actually did sleep through the night for awhile, and for awhile would only get up once.  But after our road-trip, it's been a pretty consistent diet of 2-3 wake-ups per night (and that's only counting between 11:30 and 8:00; she's in bed by 8 or 9pm but my wife goes to bed at 11pm and feeds her just before going to sleep).
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 07:29:43 PM »

Sleeping thru the night isn't entirely an option for us since we co-sleep and delay solids introductions until 1 year. Is she eating when she wakes or just comfort nursing? If you can try and do a dream feed around when she normally wakes in the night. This is when you nurse her while she is still slightly asleep. She will eat enough to curb the hunger before she wakes hungry and angry. (and inconsolable)
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2009, 07:46:28 PM »

Sleeping thru the night isn't entirely an option for us since we co-sleep and delay solids introductions until 1 year.

She's 6 months and still hasn't touched solids or anything else; she's even only had 1 serving of formula.

Is she eating when she wakes or just comfort nursing?

It depends, but usually eating.

If you can try and do a dream feed around when she normally wakes in the night. This is when you nurse her while she is still slightly asleep. She will eat enough to curb the hunger before she wakes hungry and angry. (and inconsolable)

There was no pattern, so it was difficult for my wife and I to try that; although that is essentially what our 11pm feeding is - my wife feeding her as she (wife) is ready to go to bed, but the baby's been asleep for hours, and we don't wake her.  Thankfully, the last two nights she has neither needed the 11pm feeding (thus, last feeding around 8pm), and she hasn't cried beyond 20 or 30 seconds before going back to sleep.
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2009, 08:37:13 PM »

Sounds like a growth spurt combined with teething. I typically do a 3 am dream feed which satisfies my babies until 7-8 am. Normally there is some pattern to when a baby wants to eat- every 3 hours, every 2 hours ect. So if normally she would be hungry within "x" number of hours you can do a feeding then. But if the baby sleeps separately from you this is more difficult and you would lose more sleep trying that then you could possibly gain if it worked. For me I roll over, latch the baby on and go back to sleep until they are done and then wake up when they are done and put them back in their spot on the bed. (we have a snuggle nest inbetween my husband and I's pillows) Since I delay solids I can't allow my kids to miss their feedings at night (up until they are 18 months they normally nurse 2-3 times between when they are out for the night around 9 and get up in the morning around 10).
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2009, 09:39:49 PM »

Rice cereal with milk was the catalyst for sleeping through the night at my home.  It was a mess to clean up  sticky babies late at night, but it worked.  I don't know when docs encourage parents to start rice cereal now, but they used to suggest feeding solids at 1 year of age.  Exhausted mothers always ignored this advice and started around 6 months...sometimes earlier.    I used to put rice cereal in milk in a night time bottle.  They liked it and would drink many ounces.   The rice came with tiny flakes of bananas in it.  Sometimes we put the rice cereal in a bottle at night with a tiny amount of  baby food fruit in it to sweeten it. 
My kiddos all survived feeding them solids early...and so did I with a few extra hours of sleep.   Best wishes!
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2009, 11:39:50 PM »

Update: we slept out in the living room for 4 days (so she would be in her environment, and wouldn't hear us if/when she woke up during the night), and for the last 2 she's not cried for any extended period of time.  Each of the last 2 nights we heard her cry only once, and for less than 30 seconds.  Moving her to another room wasn't an option (space limitations), and besides, we figured we'd try to change as little as possible while getting her to transition to full-night sleep again.

Keep in mind, too, that sometimes kids just don't sleep through the night until they're ready to do so and it could be any where from 6 months of age to over a year before they can make it through the night. 

What kills us is that she actually did sleep through the night for awhile, and for awhile would only get up once.  But after our road-trip, it's been a pretty consistent diet of 2-3 wake-ups per night (and that's only counting between 11:30 and 8:00; she's in bed by 8 or 9pm but my wife goes to bed at 11pm and feeds her just before going to sleep).

Awesome!  Sometimes teething and growth spurts do make babies wake up more frequently.  Unfortunately, no two kids are quite the same so it could be anything causing her to wake up.  Cait had a similar pattern where she would sleep the night through from 6 months until about 10 months and then she went through a big growth spurt and she was constantly hungry.  That and teething made her wake up at least once during the night, but she starting sleeping through the night again once she cut most of her teeth.  She's been getting through almost every night without waking up now.  In fact, the last few times she woke up crying was because she kicked off her blanket and got too cold or when she was sick.
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2010, 02:18:33 PM »

I am disappointed by the options presented in this thread. I would do a lot of research on Babywise before following such a program. Did you know that many of the guidelines in Babywise go against AAP recommendations? Did you know that the author of these books has no medical training whatsoever, has been excommunicated from several churches, and is now estranged from his children? Not exactly the type of person I would want to take advice from. For more information you can refer to this article: http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/babywise-linked-to-babies-dehydration.html

The truth is that a baby's sleep is not a linear progression towards sleeping through the night. Breastfed babies are particulary bad about sleeping through the night, both because breastmilk digests very quickly and because nursing is the ultimate comfort. Frequent teething and growth spurts add to this. As difficult as it is, babies are hardwired to need their mother throughout the night. I co-slept with my son for the first year of his life and this enabled me to get enough sleep while also continuing to meet his needs. I didn't begin to night wean him until he was well over a year old, because I believe the evidence that shows young babies truly need the nutrition they receive at night.

I don't have a problem with some sleep training such as Ferber. I used Ferber's graduated extinction method on my son to help him learn to fall asleep on his own once he was around a year old. I do think that six months is a little young to night wean and definitely too young to completely ignore throughout the night. Humans are a continuous contact species, not a nesting species.

At 6 months old you can definitely start to establish a consistent bedtime routine. Ensure that baby is not overtired before bedtime. Here are some other ideas: http://www.parentingscience.com/infant-sleep-training.html I also found the ideas in the book "No Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley to be helpful.
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2010, 04:58:49 PM »

I didn't see anyone on here mention Babywise specifically. In addition, who cares what the AAP recommends? Just because they're physicians doesn't mean they are always right. In addition just because a person has a bad personal life doesn't mean that their methods and techniques don't work. Since you also linked to a person's blog, would you care to enlighten us as to what medical knowledge and experience and education this person has? From what I've seen it looks like a sight which supports the people who think that bottles are bad and you should always breastfeed in every circumstance. If that's the case, I wouldn't buy anything they are selling. My daughter sleeps fine through the night most of the time at 6 weeks of age. Most of the time my wife has to wake her up for feeding. If she is fussy, she gets a pacifier and she's out like a light in 10 minutes. I think the proper way to deal with a baby sleeping is on an individual basis and there is no one way that will work for everyone. Of course you could put a drop of liquor on her lips which might help with the teething. Yea, I know, old wives tale, but my parents said it worked for me.

-Nick

I am disappointed by the options presented in this thread. I would do a lot of research on Babywise before following such a program. Did you know that many of the guidelines in Babywise go against AAP recommendations? Did you know that the author of these books has no medical training whatsoever, has been excommunicated from several churches, and is now estranged from his children? Not exactly the type of person I would want to take advice from. For more information you can refer to this article: http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/babywise-linked-to-babies-dehydration.html

The truth is that a baby's sleep is not a linear progression towards sleeping through the night. Breastfed babies are particulary bad about sleeping through the night, both because breastmilk digests very quickly and because nursing is the ultimate comfort. Frequent teething and growth spurts add to this. As difficult as it is, babies are hardwired to need their mother throughout the night. I co-slept with my son for the first year of his life and this enabled me to get enough sleep while also continuing to meet his needs. I didn't begin to night wean him until he was well over a year old, because I believe the evidence that shows young babies truly need the nutrition they receive at night.

I don't have a problem with some sleep training such as Ferber. I used Ferber's graduated extinction method on my son to help him learn to fall asleep on his own once he was around a year old. I do think that six months is a little young to night wean and definitely too young to completely ignore throughout the night. Humans are a continuous contact species, not a nesting species.

At 6 months old you can definitely start to establish a consistent bedtime routine. Ensure that baby is not overtired before bedtime. Here are some other ideas: http://www.parentingscience.com/infant-sleep-training.html I also found the ideas in the book "No Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley to be helpful.
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2010, 05:10:50 PM »

You'll have to look again, Babywise was mention in the OP.

If the AAP says "we are concerned that this is dangerous for babies" then that is a red flag for me. It is a cause for investigation. Upon further investigation, I agree with the AAP's findings.

Ezzo's Babywise is all about how to raise godly children, particularly through the use of arbitrary feeding schedules. When that person himself has a bad personal life, then that too is a red flag for me.

The URL I provided is a link to an AAP article. There are many other evidence-based articles on the same website.
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2010, 08:25:34 PM »

I'm interested in the reasons for no solids until a year. My children all had solids (Farex to begin with) at around 4-5 months and they slept through the night unless teething.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2010, 08:26:48 PM »

You'll have to look again, Babywise was mention in the OP.

If the AAP says "we are concerned that this is dangerous for babies" then that is a red flag for me. It is a cause for investigation. Upon further investigation, I agree with the AAP's findings.

Ezzo's Babywise is all about how to raise godly children, particularly through the use of arbitrary feeding schedules. When that person himself has a bad personal life, then that too is a red flag for me.

The URL I provided is a link to an AAP article. There are many other evidence-based articles on the same website.

Oh, you are talking about "Growing Kids God's Way"! <shudder>  laugh
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2010, 11:03:13 PM »

I'm interested in the reasons for no solids until a year. My children all had solids (Farex to begin with) at around 4-5 months and they slept through the night unless teething.

Most advice recommends waiting until at least 4-6 months because babies still have the tongue reflex that causes them to push the food back out of their mouths.  I've read a few articles that suggest delaying solid foods may help prevent food allergies and eczema but there is not really any solid proof of this.  There are just as many articles suggesting delaying solid foods too long can actually cause allergic reactions.  I tend to go with what the AAP suggests (and for the record, they suggest 4-6 months for solid foods). 

From the AAP site:
"INTRODUCTION OF SOLID FOODS AND ALLERGIC REACTIONS

Late introduction of solid foods may increase the risk of allergic sensitization to food and inhalant allergens. In the study, “Age at the Introduction of Solid Foods During the First Year and Allergic Sensitization at Age 5 Years,” published in the January issue of Pediatrics (appearing online December 7), researchers examined the diets and allergic sensitivities of 994 children with susceptibility to type 1 diabetes. Results indicate that late introduction of solid foods was associated with increased allergic sensitization to food and inhalant allergens. Eggs, wheat and oats were most commonly related to food sensitization, while potatoes and fish were strongly associated with inhalant sensitization. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends the introduction of solid foods between the ages of 4 and 6 months. Study authors conclude that neither extended, exclusive breastfeeding, nor delaying the introduction of solid foods, may prevent allergic diseases in children. "
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2010, 12:10:34 AM »

All my children have pretty bad food allergies. Introducing solids before at least 9 months isn't an option, they typically break out in hives or scream in pain if we even try. Our pediatrician suggests that REGULAR meals of solids are not necessary when breastfeeding and can actually be unhealthy for babies in that they fill up on low calorie solids when they need to be drinking more breastmilk. If you are breast feeding, your child has no iron deficiency and they are gaining weight properly (on the breast feeding charts, not the formula charts) and you can do it, it is best to wait until about 9 months to introduce solids-then go straight to food like freshly mashed cooked apples, fresh bananas or something you can puree on the spot. I have been blessed to be able to wait until one year (or longer with two of the kids) to introduce solids. I make a great deal of milk, and have no problem feeding every 2-3 hours 24/7. (and right now I am nursing two kids with no ill effect on either) My kids do get to "try out" various foods on occasion (white rice, pears, fruit leather.....). Food before 9 months to a year are for taste and texture, not for nutrition according to both my pediatrician and the research I have done. There is anecdotal evidence like mentioned above that late food introduction can lead to food allergies. But that argument has been going round and round for years. It won't change how I introduce solids. My children gain beautifully in the first year without solids. My eldest daughter went from 7.2 to over 20 lbs in the first year. If parents want to introduce solids before a year that is fine by me, and if a child is fed any formula they should be given solids around 6 months, but that isn't something I ever plan to do. But then, I am one of those crazy Attachment Parenting people. (i.e. the antithesis of Ferber)
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2010, 12:19:55 PM »

You'll have to look again, Babywise was mention in the OP.

If the AAP says "we are concerned that this is dangerous for babies" then that is a red flag for me. It is a cause for investigation. Upon further investigation, I agree with the AAP's findings.

Ezzo's Babywise is all about how to raise godly children, particularly through the use of arbitrary feeding schedules. When that person himself has a bad personal life, then that too is a red flag for me.

The URL I provided is a link to an AAP article. There are many other evidence-based articles on the same website.

OK, I aparrently misread that.... Sorry... I'd still like to see some evidence of the claims you made against the author.

-Nick
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2010, 01:40:31 PM »

You can find a compilation of all the info at http://www.ezzo.info/index.htm
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2010, 02:11:25 PM »

You can find a compilation of all the info at http://www.ezzo.info/index.htm


Thank you lizzyd. Very informative. I never subscribed to any of the people doctors or not who had written books, but its good to know I should avoid reading Babywise in the future. Thanks again for providing the documentation.

-Nick
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2010, 02:12:52 PM »

Glad to help! There is just too much bad stuff surrounding Babywise to ignore.
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