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Author Topic: Russian Church wants "concrete steps" from Vatican to make Patriarch-Pope meetin  (Read 12626 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 08, 2009, 04:57:02 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6712

07 December 2009, 11:56

Russian Church wants "concrete steps" from Vatican to make Patriarch-Pope meeting possible

Moscow, December 7, Interfax - The Russian Orthodox Church is not against a meeting between its head, Patriarch Kirill, and Pope Benedict XVI but expects the Vatican to "take "concrete steps to show that there is a desire to be cooperative," the Russian Church's foreign relations chief said in a television program on Saturday.

"Our position has remained unchanged for many years: we have never excluded the possibility of such a meeting. So said the late Patriarch Alexy II and so says the incumbent Patriarch, Kirill," head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations Archbishop Hilarion of Volokolamsk told Rossiya television.

But such a meeting needs good preparation "so that the current tension is eliminated," he said.

"We expect the Vatican, the Roman Catholic Church, to take concrete steps to show that there is a desire to be cooperative and heal all the wounds that were inflicted in the extremely harrowing period of the early 90s," the Archbishop said.

In that period, more than 500 Orthodox churches in Ukraine "were forcibly seized by Greek Catholics and the Orthodox believes were ousted from them".

"We are suggesting concrete solutions to the problems that exist," he said.

Archbishop Hilarion also commented on a recent decision by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev to seek diplomatic relations between Russia and the Vatican.

"This move on the part of the Russian state deserves nothing but being hailed," he said.

At the same time, there are problems in relations between the Russian Orthodox and Catholic Churches "that need to be solved in a completely different way and by different means, that cannot be solved merely by establishing diplomatic relations," he said.

"Above all, it is the problems of Western Ukraine, where there remains tension in relations between the Orthodox and Greek Catholics," Archbishop Hilarion said.


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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 10:48:51 AM »

^ I wonder if any of the churches that were "stolen" were Eastern Catholic Churches originally and then were seized and given to the RO Church during the the rule of communism.
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 11:10:23 AM »

^ I don't think there's much doubt about that.  On the other hand, it doesn't look like either side was innocent in this conflict in the early '90's, though I must confess that I am pretty foggy on the details.  I have heard that the Eastern Catholics took churches that had never been Eastern Catholic before as well.
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 11:45:56 AM »

^ I wonder if any of the churches that were "stolen" were Eastern Catholic Churches originally and then were seized and given to the RO Church during the the rule of communism.

I remember a Time or Newsweek article when communism was loosing its grip.  Some priest, stating that he "hear[d] the confessions" and that he "kn[e]w what [his] people believed," being installed in a brand new Church built by the ROC, began to commemorate the pope of Rome.   I wonder where that Church ended up, because he was still in possession of it after seizing it with false pretenses.

Then there is the problem that the Polish government, which invaded and occupied Galicia in the interwar period seized Orthodox properties as "restitution" for the Russian occupation, and turned them over to the Vatican.

Then there is the problem of Austria-Hungary denying the Back to Orthodoxy movement going on under their noses in Sub-carpathia.  That is when they weren't trying the Orthodox for treason.

And of course then there are the Churches which were forced into "union" under Brest and Uzhhorod.

And then there are the churches the Vatican built on the demolished Orthodox Churches, e.g. St. George Cathedral in Lviv.
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 11:47:29 AM »



And of course then there are the Churches which were forced into "union" under Brest and Uzhhorod.

Still upset about these are we?  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 12:28:45 PM »



And of course then there are the Churches which were forced into "union" under Brest and Uzhhorod.

Still upset about these are we?  Wink

Gotta pull weeds up by the root.

I've always been puzzled on how Latin Poles were so crazy about their saint Josephat Kuntsevych.  It only seems recently that the more extreme Ukrainians who want to be more Ultramontanist than the Vatican have picked up his cause. I seem to have found the reason why:
Religion and nationality in Western Ukraine: the Greek Catholic Church and the Ruthenians National Movement 1867-1900, By John-Paul Himka "The Canonization of Iosafat Kuntsevych and Its Reception in Galica."
http://books.google.com/books?id=j2yhkvCx60IC&pg=PA28&dq=canonization+of+Kuntsevych&cd=1#v=onepage&q=canonization%20of%20Kuntsevych&f=false
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 12:37:00 PM »

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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 01:26:08 PM »



And of course then there are the Churches which were forced into "union" under Brest and Uzhhorod.

Still upset about these are we?  Wink

Darn right we are and will continue to be. 

"Those who ignore history enable it to be repeated".  Especially the RCC which has a 1000 year old history of lies, deception, and broken promises where the Orthodox are concerned.

Your comment seems funny coming from a person who states here that the 'Quadripartite Agreement/Comission should have been burned.  Thereby preventing each parish from deciding what church they wanted to belong to.  Which is what happened in the end.  You defend what happened in the FORCED UNION of 1596 and then also defend what ultimately happened in the 1990's.  One can only surmise from this that you condone the use of force by RCC's to replenish their flock every time they lose adherents because of their deceit and treachory.  Examples:  The Protestant Reformation of the 1600's (forced union of Brest) and the use of force in the 1990's (when the RCC is closing parishes in leaps & bounds to pay for legal costs and LACK OF ATTENDANCE).

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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 01:26:59 PM »



And of course then there are the Churches which were forced into "union" under Brest and Uzhhorod.

Still upset about these are we?  Wink

Darn right we are and will continue to be. 

"Those who ignore history enable it to be repeated".  Especially the RCC which has a 1000 year old history of lies, deception, and broken promises where the Orthodox are concerned.

Your comment seems funny coming from a person who states here that the 'Quadripartite Agreement/Comission should have been burned.  Thereby preventing each parish from deciding what church they wanted to belong to.  Which is what happened in the end.  You defend what happened in the FORCED UNION of 1596 and then also defend what ultimately happened in the 1990's.  One can only surmise from this that you condone the use of force by RCC's to replenish their flock every time they lose adherents because of their deceit and treachory.  Examples:  The Protestant Reformation of the 1600's (forced union of Brest) and the use of force in the 1990's (when the RCC is closing parishes in leaps & bounds to pay for legal costs and LACK OF ATTENDANCE).

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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 03:03:11 PM »



And of course then there are the Churches which were forced into "union" under Brest and Uzhhorod.

Still upset about these are we?  Wink

You seem to be pretty upset over EO churches being handed back to the EO that are currently controlled by Latin Rite or Byzantine Rite Catholics.
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 03:05:20 PM »



And of course then there are the Churches which were forced into "union" under Brest and Uzhhorod.

Still upset about these are we?  Wink

You seem to be pretty upset over EO churches being handed back to the EO that are currently controlled by Latin Rite or Byzantine Rite Catholics.
Only the ones that rightfully belong to my Catholic Bretheren in Eastern Europe.
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 03:31:33 PM »



And of course then there are the Churches which were forced into "union" under Brest and Uzhhorod.

Still upset about these are we?  Wink

Darn right we are and will continue to be. 

"Those who ignore history enable it to be repeated".  Especially the RCC which has a 1000 year old history of lies, deception, and broken promises where the Orthodox are concerned.

Your comment seems funny coming from a person who states here that the 'Quadripartite Agreement/Comission should have been burned.  Thereby preventing each parish from deciding what church they wanted to belong to.  Which is what happened in the end.  You defend what happened in the FORCED UNION of 1596 and then also defend what ultimately happened in the 1990's.  One can only surmise from this that you condone the use of force by RCC's to replenish their flock every time they lose adherents because of their deceit and treachory.  Examples:  The Protestant Reformation of the 1600's (forced union of Brest) and the use of force in the 1990's (when the RCC is closing parishes in leaps & bounds to pay for legal costs and LACK OF ATTENDANCE).

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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 03:46:51 PM »



And of course then there are the Churches which were forced into "union" under Brest and Uzhhorod.

Still upset about these are we?  Wink

Darn right we are and will continue to be. 

"Those who ignore history enable it to be repeated".  Especially the RCC which has a 1000 year old history of lies, deception, and broken promises where the Orthodox are concerned.

Your comment seems funny coming from a person who states here that the 'Quadripartite Agreement/Comission should have been burned.  Thereby preventing each parish from deciding what church they wanted to belong to.  Which is what happened in the end.  You defend what happened in the FORCED UNION of 1596 and then also defend what ultimately happened in the 1990's.  One can only surmise from this that you condone the use of force by RCC's to replenish their flock every time they lose adherents because of their deceit and treachory.  Examples:  The Protestant Reformation of the 1600's (forced union of Brest) and the use of force in the 1990's (when the RCC is closing parishes in leaps & bounds to pay for legal costs and LACK OF ATTENDANCE).

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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 04:10:19 PM »

Well, at least Jesus' anger was righteous.
So was St. Alexei Kabalyuk's
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 04:34:22 PM »

Well, at least Jesus' anger was righteous.
So was St. Alexei Kabalyuk's

Who is this?
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 04:36:49 PM »

Well, at least Jesus' anger was righteous.
So was St. Alexei Kabalyuk's

I found this online:  "as the primary Orthodox leader who assisted the Soviets in the 1946 liquidation, is offensive to the Greek Catholics."

Now I see why you like him so much. He helped oppress Catholics.
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2009, 04:40:15 PM »

And the wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round, 'round and 'round, 'round and 'round...

LOOK, DRIVER, IT'S A kallikantzaros!!!
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 05:06:03 PM »



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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2009, 05:07:28 PM »

Papist:  Only the ones that rightfully belong to my Catholic Bretheren in Eastern Europe.

Reply:  Shouldn't the paishioners decide this rather than the Vatican or the MP?  This is why the Quadripartite Agreement/Comission would have ensured.

Papist:  You are an angry man. 
   
Reply:  As is any Orthodox Catholic who knows thw whole history of what the RCC has done to their church in thast 100+ years.  Once again you avoid an answer to the Quardrpartite Ageement/Commission.  You no response says it all.  You like somany in the RCC are only to go back in history so far to TRY and prove the justification for what your church has done.  You are not willing to discuss what happened before or even after (in this case) to know why the distrust is there in the first place.  BY THEIR DEEDS THEY SHALL BE KNOWN.  To completely understand eany great novel one has to start from chapter one, page one and read to the last page.  One desn't just read the second half of the last chapter to base their understanding of the novel.   
   
scamandrius :  You seem to be pretty upset over EO churches being handed back to the EO that are currently controlled by Latin Rite or Byzantine Rite Catholics.
   
Reply:  Read my last reply above to Papist.   
   

Orthodoc   
   


   
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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 05:09:25 PM »

Well, at least Jesus' anger was righteous.
So was St. Alexei Kabalyuk's

I found this online:  "as the primary Orthodox leader who assisted the Soviets in the 1946 liquidation, is offensive to the Greek Catholics."

Now I see why you like him so much. He helped oppress Catholics.

No, he led Catholics.

Btw, I notice how you skipped the sentence before your quote "On the eve of WWI, Kabalyuk was jailed, and later was a major leader of the Carpathian Orthodox until his death in 1947."

Jailed is euphemistic, here's a contemporary source:
Quote
A movement led by an Orthodox priest of fascinating presence, Father Alexis Kabalyuk, resulted in large numbers of the Ruthenians in Hungary leaving the Greek Catholic for the Russian Orthodox Church...Accordingly 189 Ruthenians were accused of treason and put on trial at Marmaros
Sziget. The trial lasted two months and resulted in the finding of of thirty-two of the accused guilty of incitement against Church and State.  The heaviest was that imposed upon Kabalyuk, four and a half years' imprisonment...
http://books.google.com/books?id=IajPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA17&dq=Kabalyuk&cd=2#v=onepage&q=Kabalyuk&f=false
Quote
The truth was that under Polish influences new customs and ceremonies, abhorred by the people, were introduced into the Uniate Church by their Metropolitan, Count Andrew Shepticky.  As a result, thousands were leaving it, and were going back to the Orthodox Church.  Uniate priests who remained faithful to the ancient Slavonic Liturgy, so loved by the people, were harshly persecuted, while Orthodox priests, althoug native Galicians, were imprisoned.  The action of the Uniate ecclesiastical authorities, and not any propoganda from the neighbouring Russian Empire, was the cause of the Orthodox movement.
The inside story of Austro-German intrigue: or, How the World War was Brought About By Josef Goričar, Lyman Beecher Stowe
http://books.google.com/books?id=zOs1AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=Orthodox&f=false
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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2009, 05:31:51 PM »

scamandrius :  You seem to be pretty upset over EO churches being handed back to the EO that are currently controlled by Latin Rite or Byzantine Rite Catholics.
   
Reply:  Read my last reply above to Papist.   

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but Scamandrius' comment seemed to be directed to Papist; he is in essence saying "RCs are upset about Eastern-Rite Churches which were really EO Churches being handed back to the EO."
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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2009, 05:33:33 PM »

Quote
The truth was that under Polish influences new customs and ceremonies, abhorred by the people, were introduced into the Uniate Church by their Metropolitan, Count Andrew Shepticky.  As a result, thousands were leaving it, and were going back to the Orthodox Church.  Uniate priests who remained faithful to the ancient Slavonic Liturgy, so loved by the people, were harshly persecuted, while Orthodox priests, althoug native Galicians, were imprisoned.  The action of the Uniate ecclesiastical authorities, and not any propoganda from the neighbouring Russian Empire, was the cause of the Orthodox movement.


What were these abhorrent Polish-influenced customs and ceremonies?
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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2009, 05:54:28 PM »

This discussion has certainly provoked strong statements and evoked strong opinions. History placed the Galicians and Rusyns at the fault line of Europe, caught between the shifting geopolitical boundaries of three empires, i.e. the Russian, the Austro-Hungarian and the Polish-Lithuanian. What happened to these peoples, whose deep faith and simple piety was profound, ought to serve as warning to those of you who would put your trust in princes and expect any government to further the aims of the Faith. My family in both the United States and in Europe has members who remain Eastern Catholic and members, such as my immediate family, who returned to Orthodoxy. We have tried to understand the past and move forward into the future. In the United States the Rusyn community was driven asunder in community after community at least twice during the 20th Century as a result of arguments over forced Westernization (as perceived by some ) and forced Russification, as perceived by others."Neither to Moscow nor to Rome" became the rallying cry of many as a result. Property rights and congregationalism became foundations of 'faith' to many. Through the wisdom and courage of then Archbishop (later Ecumenical Patriarch) Athenagoras many Eastern Catholics began the long journey home to Orthodoxy. My point is simple, seeking apologies and recriminations over the sins committed by some and the good faith actions of others,is akin to putting spilled milk back into a bottle. The laity and the clergy of both sides need to work together on a community by community basis to resolve these difficult and emotionally tough issues. Proclamations and slogans won't work.
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« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2009, 06:20:40 PM »

Quote
The truth was that under Polish influences new customs and ceremonies, abhorred by the people, were introduced into the Uniate Church by their Metropolitan, Count Andrew Shepticky.  As a result, thousands were leaving it, and were going back to the Orthodox Church.  Uniate priests who remained faithful to the ancient Slavonic Liturgy, so loved by the people, were harshly persecuted, while Orthodox priests, althoug native Galicians, were imprisoned.  The action of the Uniate ecclesiastical authorities, and not any propoganda from the neighbouring Russian Empire, was the cause of the Orthodox movement.


What were these abhorrent Polish-influenced customs and ceremonies?
For a list from a sympathetic account:Morality and reality: the life and times of Andrei Sheptyts'kyi By Paul R. Magocsi, Andrii Krawchuk, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies
http://books.google.com/books?id=TmXYeKOISCoC&pg=PA207&dq=Morality+and+reality+Andrei+Corpus+Christi&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2009, 06:28:44 PM »

Quote
The truth was that under Polish influences new customs and ceremonies, abhorred by the people, were introduced into the Uniate Church by their Metropolitan, Count Andrew Shepticky.  As a result, thousands were leaving it, and were going back to the Orthodox Church.  Uniate priests who remained faithful to the ancient Slavonic Liturgy, so loved by the people, were harshly persecuted, while Orthodox priests, althoug native Galicians, were imprisoned.  The action of the Uniate ecclesiastical authorities, and not any propoganda from the neighbouring Russian Empire, was the cause of the Orthodox movement.


What were these abhorrent Polish-influenced customs and ceremonies?
For a list from a sympathetic account:Morality and reality: the life and times of Andrei Sheptyts'kyi By Paul R. Magocsi, Andrii Krawchuk, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies
http://books.google.com/books?id=TmXYeKOISCoC&pg=PA207&dq=Morality+and+reality+Andrei+Corpus+Christi&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Thanks, Isa.  I'll have a look-see at these later.
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2009, 07:19:18 PM »

Quote
The truth was that under Polish influences new customs and ceremonies, abhorred by the people, were introduced into the Uniate Church by their Metropolitan, Count Andrew Shepticky.  As a result, thousands were leaving it, and were going back to the Orthodox Church.  Uniate priests who remained faithful to the ancient Slavonic Liturgy, so loved by the people, were harshly persecuted, while Orthodox priests, althoug native Galicians, were imprisoned.  The action of the Uniate ecclesiastical authorities, and not any propoganda from the neighbouring Russian Empire, was the cause of the Orthodox movement.

Well the above shows the author has no idea what he is talking about.  Metropolitan Andrew was the leader if not the founder of the de-Latinization among the Slav Greek Catholics.  It was his purging the books of Latinizations that led his suffragans to appeal to Rome.  The Pope appointed a commission which ended in upholding the Metropolitan's work and publishing the much praised Ruthenian Recension books.  If by Polish influences he means Sacred Heart Devotions, Rosary, 40 Hours devotion, etc., these were present long before Metropolitan Andrew.

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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2009, 07:30:14 PM »

Since the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church had 2352 parishes before 1946 and they only took back less than 600 perhaps we can call it even and move on.
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2009, 07:58:59 PM »

Looking at this dispute as one whose family left the Eastern Catholic Church and joined the Orthodox Church in the late 1930's during the period of the celibacy dispute and church property disputes, it is indeed ironic to note that in the period of 'de-Latinization' following Vatican 2, many who stayed within the Eastern Catholic Church were , to say the least, confused, if not upset by the change of policies.
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2009, 08:16:19 PM »

scamandrius :  You seem to be pretty upset over EO churches being handed back to the EO that are currently controlled by Latin Rite or Byzantine Rite Catholics.
   
Reply:  Read my last reply above to Papist.   

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but Scamandrius' comment seemed to be directed to Papist; he is in essence saying "RCs are upset about Eastern-Rite Churches which were really EO Churches being handed back to the EO."

Father, that's why I responded with my comment that Papist is not willing to back to understand how and why the situation was created.  He justifies FORCED conversion to RCC in 1596 as will as the 1990's but deplores correcting the injustices of the RCC against the Orthodox.

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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2009, 08:21:52 PM »

Quote
The truth was that under Polish influences new customs and ceremonies, abhorred by the people, were introduced into the Uniate Church by their Metropolitan, Count Andrew Shepticky.  As a result, thousands were leaving it, and were going back to the Orthodox Church.  Uniate priests who remained faithful to the ancient Slavonic Liturgy, so loved by the people, were harshly persecuted, while Orthodox priests, althoug native Galicians, were imprisoned.  The action of the Uniate ecclesiastical authorities, and not any propoganda from the neighbouring Russian Empire, was the cause of the Orthodox movement.

Well the above shows the author has no idea what he is talking about.  Metropolitan Andrew was the leader if not the founder of the de-Latinization among the Slav Greek Catholics.  It was his purging the books of Latinizations that led his suffragans to appeal to Rome.  The Pope appointed a commission which ended in upholding the Metropolitan's work and publishing the much praised Ruthenian Recension books.  If by Polish influences he means Sacred Heart Devotions, Rosary, 40 Hours devotion, etc., these were present long before Metropolitan Andrew.

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« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2009, 08:22:39 PM »

scamandrius :  You seem to be pretty upset over EO churches being handed back to the EO that are currently controlled by Latin Rite or Byzantine Rite Catholics.
   
Reply:  Read my last reply above to Papist.   

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but Scamandrius' comment seemed to be directed to Papist; he is in essence saying "RCs are upset about Eastern-Rite Churches which were really EO Churches being handed back to the EO."

Father, that's why I responded with my comment that Papist is not willing to back to understand how and why the situation was created.  He justifies FORCED conversion to RCC in 1596 as will as the 1990's but deplores correcting the injustices of the RCC against the Orthodox.

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« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2009, 08:25:46 PM »

Father, that's why I responded with my comment that Papist is not willing to back to understand how and why the situation was created.  He justifies FORCED conversion to RCC in 1596 as will as the 1990's but deplores correcting the injustices of the RCC against the Orthodox. 

Ahh, right.  Thank you for the clarification!  My cold is keeping me from most higher-level thinking tonight Wink
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« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2009, 08:27:52 PM »

scamandrius :  You seem to be pretty upset over EO churches being handed back to the EO that are currently controlled by Latin Rite or Byzantine Rite Catholics.
   
Reply:  Read my last reply above to Papist.   

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but Scamandrius' comment seemed to be directed to Papist; he is in essence saying "RCs are upset about Eastern-Rite Churches which were really EO Churches being handed back to the EO."

Father, that's why I responded with my comment that Papist is not willing to back to understand how and why the situation was created.  He justifies FORCED conversion to RCC in 1596 as will as the 1990's but deplores correcting the injustices of the RCC against the Orthodox.

Orthodoc
Well, they should all be RCC anyway.
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You better not call them Roman Catholic to their face!  You might be surprised by the reaction you will get.  A large percent think they are not under the authority of the Pope.  That they are just 'In Communion' with him.  Their theological understanding is very poor.

Then how about asking them if they waant to be Roman Catholic or Orthodox Catholic?  How many do you think would opt to accept the worship and theology of the RCC?

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« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2009, 08:28:40 PM »

scamandrius :  You seem to be pretty upset over EO churches being handed back to the EO that are currently controlled by Latin Rite or Byzantine Rite Catholics.
   
Reply:  Read my last reply above to Papist.   

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but Scamandrius' comment seemed to be directed to Papist; he is in essence saying "RCs are upset about Eastern-Rite Churches which were really EO Churches being handed back to the EO."

Father, that's why I responded with my comment that Papist is not willing to back to understand how and why the situation was created.  He justifies FORCED conversion to RCC in 1596 as will as the 1990's but deplores correcting the injustices of the RCC against the Orthodox.

Orthodoc
Well, they should all be RCC anyway.
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You better not call them Roman Catholic to their face!  You might be surprised by the reaction you will get.  A large percent think they are not under the authority of the Pope.  That they are just 'In Communion' with him.  Their theological understanding is very poor.

Orthodoc
I was  using your nomenclature.
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« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2009, 08:37:31 PM »

Quote
The truth was that under Polish influences new customs and ceremonies, abhorred by the people, were introduced into the Uniate Church by their Metropolitan, Count Andrew Shepticky.  As a result, thousands were leaving it, and were going back to the Orthodox Church.  Uniate priests who remained faithful to the ancient Slavonic Liturgy, so loved by the people, were harshly persecuted, while Orthodox priests, althoug native Galicians, were imprisoned.  The action of the Uniate ecclesiastical authorities, and not any propoganda from the neighbouring Russian Empire, was the cause of the Orthodox movement.

Well the above shows the author has no idea what he is talking about.  Metropolitan Andrew was the leader if not the founder of the de-Latinization among the Slav Greek Catholics.  It was his purging the books of Latinizations that led his suffragans to appeal to Rome.  The Pope appointed a commission which ended in upholding the Metropolitan's work and publishing the much praised Ruthenian Recension books.  If by Polish influences he means Sacred Heart Devotions, Rosary, 40 Hours devotion, etc., these were present long before Metropolitan Andrew.

Fr. Deacon Lance  

If the thirty three articles guaranteed in the Union of Brest were adhered to and protected by Rome in the first place, there would be no need to delatinize now.

Orthodoc

Or better yet, no "Union of Brest" at all.

Btw, the author of the quote is Josef Goričar, who was in the Austro-Hungarian Consular service, and espionage, who flipped. Hence he is viewing it from the center.  I think it is Magocsi who makes a comment about seeing in the Vatican documents the hiearchy in Lviv (or should I say "Lemberg") never saw, and reading newspapers in Galicia that no eye in Vienna or Rome ever saw, etc.
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« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2009, 10:43:47 AM »

Quote
The truth was that under Polish influences new customs and ceremonies, abhorred by the people, were introduced into the Uniate Church by their Metropolitan, Count Andrew Shepticky.  As a result, thousands were leaving it, and were going back to the Orthodox Church.  Uniate priests who remained faithful to the ancient Slavonic Liturgy, so loved by the people, were harshly persecuted, while Orthodox priests, althoug native Galicians, were imprisoned.  The action of the Uniate ecclesiastical authorities, and not any propoganda from the neighbouring Russian Empire, was the cause of the Orthodox movement.

Well the above shows the author has no idea what he is talking about.  Metropolitan Andrew was the leader if not the founder of the de-Latinization among the Slav Greek Catholics.  It was his purging the books of Latinizations that led his suffragans to appeal to Rome.  The Pope appointed a commission which ended in upholding the Metropolitan's work and publishing the much praised Ruthenian Recension books.  If by Polish influences he means Sacred Heart Devotions, Rosary, 40 Hours devotion, etc., these were present long before Metropolitan Andrew.

Fr. Deacon Lance  

Yeah, that's what I thought initially (and was always taught) and even the work ialmisry cited says that.  While Met. Andrew recognized that these "Polish things" were not a part of the authentic Eastern tradition, he also recognized that they were beloved by the faithful and could not just be wiped out without some serious problems arising in the wake of such a move (p. 213-215 in the work Isa cited).
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« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2009, 12:15:57 PM »

Since the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church had 2352 parishes before 1946 and they only took back less than 600 perhaps we can call it even and move on.

Depends upon how many of those 2352 parishes were left to take back.  How about giving some statistics on how many of those 2352 parishes were still in existence to give back?  Isn't it safe to assume that some of them were destroyed, or turned into barns, bar rooms, urinals, etc. as thousnads of Orthodox churches were? 

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« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2009, 06:09:37 PM »

I can't find statistics for that, what I could find was the UOC-MP now has over 7700 chuches, the UGCC over 3400.  Again the Greek Catholics are here to stay and Rome isn't going to force them back to the Orthodox Church no matter how much Moscow might want it.  So lets get to the business of turning the other cheek, forgiving our brother 7 X 70 times, and figuring out how to work together in the face of increasing secularization and consumerism.
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« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2009, 07:06:15 PM »

I can't find statistics for that, what I could find was the UOC-MP now has over 7700 chuches, the UGCC over 3400.  Again the Greek Catholics are here to stay and Rome isn't going to force them back to the Orthodox Church no matter how much Moscow might want it.  So lets get to the business of turning the other cheek, forgiving our brother 7 X 70 times, and figuring out how to work together in the face of increasing secularization and consumerism.
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« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2009, 10:12:33 PM »

I can't find statistics for that, what I could find was the UOC-MP now has over 7700 chuches, the UGCC over 3400.  Again the Greek Catholics are here to stay and Rome isn't going to force them back to the Orthodox Church no matter how much Moscow might want it.  So lets get to the business of turning the other cheek, forgiving our brother 7 X 70 times, and figuring out how to work together in the face of increasing secularization and consumerism.

Which brings us back to the title of this folder.  Which means a better record on the part of the RCC on signing agreements AND ABIDING BY THEM as well  setting up meeting agenda's AND ABIDING BY THEM after they are annoucnced in the western news media. The RCC has a poor record when it comes to the sincerity of their words or agreements.  This not only involves the past the the present as well as the examples given show.



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« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2009, 10:48:34 AM »

I can't find statistics for that, what I could find was the UOC-MP now has over 7700 chuches, the UGCC over 3400.  Again the Greek Catholics are here to stay and Rome isn't going to force them back to the Orthodox Church no matter how much Moscow might want it.  So lets get to the business of turning the other cheek, forgiving our brother 7 X 70 times, and figuring out how to work together in the face of increasing secularization and consumerism.

Which brings us back to the title of this folder.  Which means a better record on the part of the RCC on signing agreements AND ABIDING BY THEM as well  setting up meeting agenda's AND ABIDING BY THEM after they are annoucnced in the western news media. The RCC has a poor record when it comes to the sincerity of their words or agreements.  This not only involves the past the the present as well as the examples given show.



Orthodoc
Those involved in the agreement probably should never have made the agreement since its generally a bad one.
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« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2009, 12:34:23 PM »

I can't find statistics for that, what I could find was the UOC-MP now has over 7700 chuches, the UGCC over 3400.  Again the Greek Catholics are here to stay and Rome isn't going to force them back to the Orthodox Church no matter how much Moscow might want it.  So lets get to the business of turning the other cheek, forgiving our brother 7 X 70 times, and figuring out how to work together in the face of increasing secularization and consumerism.

Which brings us back to the title of this folder.  Which means a better record on the part of the RCC on signing agreements AND ABIDING BY THEM as well  setting up meeting agenda's AND ABIDING BY THEM after they are annoucnced in the western news media. The RCC has a poor record when it comes to the sincerity of their words or agreements.  This not only involves the past the the present as well as the examples given show.



Orthodoc
Those involved in the agreement probably should never have made the agreement since its generally a bad one.

Bad for who and in what way?  What could be better than having the parishioners themselves determine what religion they want to be?  Once again, why do you sanction the use of force as justifiable only when it's to the advantage of the Roman Catholic Church?

By the way, regarding your comment in a previous reply -

"Well, they should all be RCC anyway."

Care to elaborate on that?  Does that mean that you consider them as Eastern Rite Roman Catholics?

Bob
 





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« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2009, 12:48:03 PM »

I can't find statistics for that, what I could find was the UOC-MP now has over 7700 chuches, the UGCC over 3400.  Again the Greek Catholics are here to stay and Rome isn't going to force them back to the Orthodox Church no matter how much Moscow might want it.  So lets get to the business of turning the other cheek, forgiving our brother 7 X 70 times, and figuring out how to work together in the face of increasing secularization and consumerism.

Which brings us back to the title of this folder.  Which means a better record on the part of the RCC on signing agreements AND ABIDING BY THEM as well  setting up meeting agenda's AND ABIDING BY THEM after they are annoucnced in the western news media. The RCC has a poor record when it comes to the sincerity of their words or agreements.  This not only involves the past the the present as well as the examples given show.



Orthodoc
Those involved in the agreement probably should never have made the agreement since its generally a bad one.

Bad for who and in what way?  What could be better than having the parishioners themselves determine what religion they want to be?  Once again, why do you sanction the use of force as justifiable only when it's to the advantage of the Roman Catholic Church?

By the way, regarding your comment in a previous reply -

"Well, they should all be RCC anyway."

Care to elaborate on that?  Does that mean that you consider them as Eastern Rite Roman Catholics?

Bob
 






I think its bad for the Catholic Church. First, if we Catholics really believe our Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, then we should be evangelizing the world and that includes EOs. Second, just because a particular parish of ECs decide they want to be EO (which is within their rights) does not mean that they should be able to keep the church in which they meet because it is a Catholic Church.

As for what I meant about everybody being RC: I was using the term RC to refer to the entire Catholic Communion, not just the latin rite. No, I don't think that Eastern Catholics should become latin Catholics.
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« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2009, 02:59:39 PM »

I can't find statistics for that, what I could find was the UOC-MP now has over 7700 chuches, the UGCC over 3400.  Again the Greek Catholics are here to stay and Rome isn't going to force them back to the Orthodox Church no matter how much Moscow might want it.  So lets get to the business of turning the other cheek, forgiving our brother 7 X 70 times, and figuring out how to work together in the face of increasing secularization and consumerism.

Which brings us back to the title of this folder.  Which means a better record on the part of the RCC on signing agreements AND ABIDING BY THEM as well  setting up meeting agenda's AND ABIDING BY THEM after they are annoucnced in the western news media. The RCC has a poor record when it comes to the sincerity of their words or agreements.  This not only involves the past the the present as well as the examples given show.



Orthodoc
Those involved in the agreement probably should never have made the agreement since its generally a bad one.

Bad for who and in what way?  What could be better than having the parishioners themselves determine what religion they want to be?  Once again, why do you sanction the use of force as justifiable only when it's to the advantage of the Roman Catholic Church?

By the way, regarding your comment in a previous reply -

"Well, they should all be RCC anyway."

Care to elaborate on that?  Does that mean that you consider them as Eastern Rite Roman Catholics?

Bob
 






I think its bad for the Catholic Church. First, if we Catholics really believe our Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, then we should be evangelizing the world and that includes EOs. Second, just because a particular parish of ECs decide they want to be EO (which is within their rights) does not mean that they should be able to keep the church in which they meet because it is a Catholic Church.

As for what I meant about everybody being RC: I was using the term RC to refer to the entire Catholic Communion, not just the latin rite. No, I don't think that Eastern Catholics should become latin Catholics.
Does that apply to Florence, Brest, Uzhhorod and Alba Iulia?
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« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2009, 04:31:16 PM »

I can't find statistics for that, what I could find was the UOC-MP now has over 7700 chuches, the UGCC over 3400.  Again the Greek Catholics are here to stay and Rome isn't going to force them back to the Orthodox Church no matter how much Moscow might want it.  So lets get to the business of turning the other cheek, forgiving our brother 7 X 70 times, and figuring out how to work together in the face of increasing secularization and consumerism.

Which brings us back to the title of this folder.  Which means a better record on the part of the RCC on signing agreements AND ABIDING BY THEM as well  setting up meeting agenda's AND ABIDING BY THEM after they are annoucnced in the western news media. The RCC has a poor record when it comes to the sincerity of their words or agreements.  This not only involves the past the the present as well as the examples given show.



Orthodoc
Those involved in the agreement probably should never have made the agreement since its generally a bad one.

Bad for who and in what way?  What could be better than having the parishioners themselves determine what religion they want to be?  Once again, why do you sanction the use of force as justifiable only when it's to the advantage of the Roman Catholic Church?

By the way, regarding your comment in a previous reply -

"Well, they should all be RCC anyway."

Care to elaborate on that?  Does that mean that you consider them as Eastern Rite Roman Catholics?

Bob
 






I think its bad for the Catholic Church. First, if we Catholics really believe our Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, then we should be evangelizing the world and that includes EOs. Second, just because a particular parish of ECs decide they want to be EO (which is within their rights) does not mean that they should be able to keep the church in which they meet because it is a Catholic Church.

As for what I meant about everybody being RC: I was using the term RC to refer to the entire Catholic Communion, not just the latin rite. No, I don't think that Eastern Catholics should become latin Catholics.
Does that apply to Florence, Brest, Uzhhorod and Alba Iulia?


Of course not!  Since Papist as well as many RC's are only willing to go back as far as it takes to attempt to justify their claims.  In this case only going back to 1947 rather than 988 or a century before when these particular Orthodox Churches came into being.

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