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Author Topic: Death Metal Music  (Read 17253 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2010, 03:30:02 PM »

But I would also point out that the darker side of the human spirit deserves musical expression as well, and it will of course be much harder, harsher, and darker.

I cannot agree with this notion that, just because we feel it, it ought to be expressed. This is modern psychotherapy or pop psychology speaking. It is a perfect way to let demons take control of our lives. Orthodox spirituality tells us to combat the passions, not give them expression. Modern man thinks he can keep his passions under control by indulging them along specific channels... it's delusion. If you feel a twinge of hatred or anger or any other negative emotion, chant psalms... don't make it into a song.
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« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2010, 03:58:05 PM »

There are some very intersting perspectives in this discussion.  During my teenage years, I listened to quite a bit of death/black metal.  I slowly phased that out of my collection but replaced it with music from bands like White/Rob Zombie, Mudvayne, and Korn.  Since beginning my journey to Orthodoxy and working to practice a life of asceticism, my view of this music has been slowly changing.  I began to feel uneasy while listening to Rob Zombie and similar artists.  I can actually sense some sort of darkness that builds inside of me.  My mind seems to like the dark feeling but it is utterly incompatible with my nous.  Therefore, such music is now to be avoided.  I should probably clarify that the dark feeling doesn't come with a desire to do evil but it does seperate my nous from the presence of the Lord.

Because of my seemingly natural propensity to sin, I have found it important to stay as connected to God as possible.  I still fail miserably but not nearly as much as I used to.  As this relates to the music; I have to ask myself a few questions.  (1) Does the music I am listening to have an emotional or spiritual impact on me?  (2) Is the impact positive or negative?  (3) Does the impact separate me from the Lord?  I can't speak for everyone but I can definitively say that the music that I was listening to (1) did have an emotional impact on me (2) it seemed to be negative and (3) it DID separate me from the Lord.  My mind is always looking for ways to rationalize this sentiment because of my love for the music but the truth isn't always to the liking of the mind. 

I think that it's important to note that I am a (wannabe!) guitarist and have always listened to the music before the lyrics.  Even so, they lyrics had found their way into my brain and were causing an impact.  For this reason, I have been listening to the music of Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, and Buckethead.  I have found Buckethead to be on the jagged edge of what I find to be acceptable but I just skip the music that "separates me from the Lord".  Since I am merely a catechumen and theosis is a lifelong journey, I won't rule out the possiblity that I will one day find my current musical taste to be detrimental to my spiritual connection with God.  It makes sense to me that the closer that someone gets to God, the less they desire or even care for the things of the world.

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2010, 04:37:28 PM »

Welcome to the forum!
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« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2010, 04:41:28 PM »

I'm really into folk and power metal: Within Temptation, Nightwish, Equilibrium, Elvenking, Eluvietie, Sonata Arctica...a bit of Amon Amarth.

Great stuff!  Well, at least the folk material.  A Russian folk band called Arkona is pretty good, and there is an Orthodox band from Ukraine called Holy Blood: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOJtsF6-2S0
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« Reply #94 on: January 19, 2010, 07:18:41 AM »

  I caution people to stay away from a lot of this material.  I hope I'm not causing people grief by posting this stuff.

 Makes no sense whatsoever to caution people to stay away from something and then turn around and give access to or display it.  And if I were a mod, I would lock this extremely disturbing and satanic thread;  having videos being posted of extremely anti-Christian blasphemy is unacceptable!!!! 

Agreed!

Please people, feel free to tell us why you like this type of music without promoting it by displaying demonic lyrics and posting links to these disturbing songs and videos.

Rosehip, don't even entertain this stuff!

Selam

Had you been living in the 18th century this would be directed toward Mozart and Beethoven, with their foul late enlightenment romanticist and sometimes nationalistic music.

If you can find some overtly Satanic/ anti-Christian material in either of these composers, then your comparison would be valid.

We don't think of them as satanic today. They didn't then either. But a lot of the older, more traditional crowd worried that the new styles could encourage the losses of virtue. The same happened with ragtime, with the blues, and with every time music has changed. My comparison isn't with anti-christian or satanic music, but rather with the intense criticism of new music by those who have grown up with very different stuff.

And what would you call Rammstein?
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« Reply #95 on: January 19, 2010, 09:21:01 AM »

I'm quite surprised that many people on this forum (I'm assuming they are christians) seem to like death metal music. I was always taught that this was not suitable music for the christian, and seeing some of the images recently posted in another thread, I can appreciate why it was forbidden in my former faith. So, I would like to ask those of you who seem to like and listen to this genre why you enjoy this and why you feel it is acceptable for a christian to listen to something with such horrific and psychologically traumatizing imagery. Thanks.

I use to listen to all sorts of metal music and especially punk.  Many songs were actually angry at society and how twistedness of society in many ways.   I found groups that I really enjoy now such a Benjamine Gate (from south africa), POD, Eastwest, Evenesance, etc. all which are alternative music/metal bands that I by in Christian books stores.  Of course many of their songs are from an protestant view of reality.

I was the weird kid on the block who listened to the full spectrum of musical styles (except Country music for the most part).
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« Reply #96 on: January 19, 2010, 12:25:02 PM »

I cannot agree with this notion that, just because we feel it, it ought to be expressed. This is modern psychotherapy or pop psychology speaking. It is a perfect way to let demons take control of our lives. Orthodox spirituality tells us to combat the passions, not give them expression. Modern man thinks he can keep his passions under control by indulging them along specific channels... it's delusion. If you feel a twinge of hatred or anger or any other negative emotion, chant psalms... don't make it into a song.
"[Our] aim is not to eliminate the passions but to redirect their energy. Uncontrolled rage must be turned to righteous indignation, spiteful jealousy into zeal for the truth, sexual lust into an eros that is pure in its fervor. The passions, then, are to be purified, not killed; to be educated, not eradicated; to be used positively, not negatively. To ourselves and to others we say not 'Suppress,' but 'Transfigure.'" -Kallistos Ware, TOW

"According to Maximos, not all passion is bad. Indeed, he says, 'There is need for the blessed passion of holy love.' The Orthodox tradition does not shy away from the use of eros -the Greek name for sexual love -to speak of God's love for us and our love of God. We see this understanding of erotic or passionate love, for example, in the Hebrew Bible's Song of Songs." -Allyne Smith, in Palmer, Sherrard, and Ware, eds., Philokalia: Selections Annotated and Explained

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« Reply #97 on: January 19, 2010, 01:38:42 PM »

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I was the weird kid on the block who listened to the full spectrum of musical styles (except Country music for the most part).

I can relate to this because I loved folk, international and middle-eastern music, whilst all my peers lived on Steve Green, Michael Card, Michael W. Smith, Petra, etc. etc. etc. Only American CCM and Christian rock was viewed as "acceptable" whilst I found this all very boring, vapid, and lacking in character. I was ever the non-conformist too. But never, ever listened to Death Metal because it never appealed to my tastes.
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« Reply #98 on: January 19, 2010, 07:32:10 PM »

I cannot agree with this notion that, just because we feel it, it ought to be expressed. This is modern psychotherapy or pop psychology speaking. It is a perfect way to let demons take control of our lives. Orthodox spirituality tells us to combat the passions, not give them expression. Modern man thinks he can keep his passions under control by indulging them along specific channels... it's delusion. If you feel a twinge of hatred or anger or any other negative emotion, chant psalms... don't make it into a song.
"[Our] aim is not to eliminate the passions but to redirect their energy. Uncontrolled rage must be turned to righteous indignation, spiteful jealousy into zeal for the truth, sexual lust into an eros that is pure in its fervor. The passions, then, are to be purified, not killed; to be educated, not eradicated; to be used positively, not negatively. To ourselves and to others we say not 'Suppress,' but 'Transfigure.'" -Kallistos Ware, TOW

"According to Maximos, not all passion is bad. Indeed, he says, 'There is need for the blessed passion of holy love.' The Orthodox tradition does not shy away from the use of eros -the Greek name for sexual love -to speak of God's love for us and our love of God. We see this understanding of erotic or passionate love, for example, in the Hebrew Bible's Song of Songs." -Allyne Smith, in Palmer, Sherrard, and Ware, eds., Philokalia: Selections Annotated and Explained


I'm wondering what point you're trying to make here, given the context. That it's okay to indulge our anger and hatred? I don't think even the above cited writers would agree with this.

These quotes demonstrate the inroads that modernism and new age spirituality have made among some Orthodox writers. In the Song of Songs, sexual love is used as an allegory for divine eros, but that doesn't mean we may achieve the latter by indulging the former. Sometimes the spiritual struggle is compared to warfare or even slaughter (e.g., "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones") but that doesn't make these literal activities laudable.

"Having become an exile for the Lord's sake, we should have no ties at all lest we seem to be roving in order to gratify our passions... Do not touch the world any more; because the passions desire nothing better than to return." - St John of the Ladder, The Ladder of Divine Ascent

"Let us abandon the evil one and his herds. Let us keep away from pigs and the husks they eat, that is to say, the disgusting passions and their devotees. Let us withdraw from evil pastures, namely, habitual sins. Let us flee from the land of the passions, which means unbelief , insatiate desire and intemperance, where there is a terrible famine of goods things and where there are passions worse than any famine." - St. Gregory Palamas, Homily on the Parable of the Prodigal

"The passions represent the lowest level to which human nature can fall. Both their Greek name, pathi, as well as the Latin, passiones, show that man is brought by them to a state of passivity, of slavery. In fact, they overcome the will, so that the man of the passions is no longer a man of will; we say that he is a man ruled, enslaved, carried along by the passions." - Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, Orthodox Spirituality
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« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2010, 04:08:28 PM »

"[Our] aim is not to eliminate the passions but to redirect their energy. Uncontrolled rage must be turned to righteous indignation, spiteful jealousy into zeal for the truth, sexual lust into an eros that is pure in its fervor. The passions, then, are to be purified, not killed; to be educated, not eradicated; to be used positively, not negatively. To ourselves and to others we say not 'Suppress,' but 'Transfigure.'" -Kallistos Ware, TOW

"According to Maximos, not all passion is bad. Indeed, he says, 'There is need for the blessed passion of holy love.' The Orthodox tradition does not shy away from the use of eros -the Greek name for sexual love -to speak of God's love for us and our love of God. We see this understanding of erotic or passionate love, for example, in the Hebrew Bible's Song of Songs." -Allyne Smith, in Palmer, Sherrard, and Ware, eds., Philokalia: Selections Annotated and Explained
These quotes demonstrate the inroads that modernism and new age spirituality have made among some Orthodox writers.
Interesting. You are claiming that Metropolitan Kallistos Ware is the victim of modernism and New Age spirituality and that this is demonstrated by the quote from his book The Orthodox Way? It is quite a blessing to this forum that your spiritual understanding of the passions is superior to that of Metropolitan Ware. Could you demonstrate this line by line? Surely you don't regard the cited quotation from Maximos the Confessor an example of modernism?

Actually the fuller quotation from Metropolitan Ware affirms a polarity between a more positive and a more negative standpoint is traceable within the Fathers themselves, long before the advent of modernism:

"An essential aspect of guarding the heart is warfare against the passions. By 'passion' here is meant not just sexual lust, but any disordered appetite of longing that violently takes possession of the soul: anger, jealousy, gluttony, avarice, lust for power, pride, and the rest. Many of the Fathers treat the passions as something intrinsically evil, that is to say, as inward diseases alien to man's true nature. Some of them, however, adopt a more positive standpoint, regarding the passions as dynamic impulses originally placed in man by God, and so fundamentally good although at present distorted by sin. On this second and more subtle view, our aim is not to eliminate the passions, but redirect their energy. Uncontrolled rage must be turned into righteous indignation, spiteful jealousy into zeal for the truth,n sexual lust into an eros that is pure in its fervor. The passions, then, are to be purified, not killed; to be educated, not eradicated; to be used positively, not negatively. To ourselves and to others we say not 'Suppress,' but 'Transfigure.' ...The 'dispassioned' person, so far from being apathetic, is the one whose heart burns with love for God, for other humans, for every living creature, for all that God has made. As St. Isaac the Syrian writes: 'When a man with such a heart as this thinks of his creatures and looks at them, his eyes are filled with tears because of the overwhelming compassion that presses upon his heart. The heart of such a man grows tender, and he cannot endure to hear of or look upon any injury, even the smallest suffering, inflicted upon anything in creation. Therefore he never ceases to pray with tears even for dumb animals, for the enemies of the truth, and for all who do harm to it, asking that they may be guarded and receive God's mercy. And for the reptiles also he prays with great compassion which rises up endlessly in his heart, after the example of God'" (Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way, pp. 116-117).

That the battle against the passions biblically, at least it seems to me, is more akin to the transfiguration Metropolitan Ware speaks of than a pagan Stoic trajectory of absolute apatheia is suggested by the many scriptures which speak of things like holy hatred, righteous anger, godly tears and the like:

"But this you do have, that you hate [μισεῖς] the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate [ἃ κἂγω μισῶ]. -Rev 2:6
"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other, or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." -Lk 16:13
"'Also let none of you devise evil in your heart against his neighbor, and love not a false oath: for these things I hate' declares the Lord" -Zech 8:17
"Be angry, and yet do not sin..." -Eph 4:26
"Oh that my head were a spring of water, and my eyes a fountain of tears! I would weep day and night for the slain of my people!" -Jer 9:1

Although comparison of Metropolitan Ware's witness to a patristic trajectory of transfiguring and educating rather than eliminating/eradicating the passions was described by Iconodule as demonstrating "new age spirituality," insofar as contemporary New Age spirituality is indebted to Buddhism it could just as easily be argued that the more Stoic-like viewpoint of all human passions being in need of absolute eradication (vs. reorientation/transfiguration) per se is indeed also akin to New Age/Buddhist spirituality:

Quote
The concept of apatheia resembles the key Buddhist and Daoist principle of realizing oneness with the Tao (Way) through wu-wei, or "non-doing." Wu-wei refers to spontaneous and effortless behavior that arises from a sense of unity with life, environment, and with others. It is not inertia, laziness, or passivity. Rather, it is the intuitive experience of acting appropriately at any particular moment and relinquishing any effort to control or conquer the environment. Chuang Tzu refers to this type of existence in the world as flowing, or as "purposeless wandering," characterized by "detachment, forgetfulness of results, and abandonment of all hope of profit."

Buddhism teaches that unhappiness and suffering are the result of attachment to, or desire for, the things of this world, and that they can be eliminated through following the Eightfold Path. This understanding is contained in the Four Noble Truths:

   1. Dukkha: All worldly life is unsatisfactory, disjointed, containing suffering.
   2. Samudaya: There is a cause of suffering, which is attachment or desire (tanha) rooted in ignorance.
   3. Nirodha: There is an end of suffering, which is Nirvana.
   4. Magga: There is a path that leads out of suffering, known as the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Buddhist state of enlightenment, in which a person is free of all earthly attachment, can be compared to the Stoic ideal of apatheia.
However in reality any argument which supposes anything with a parallel beyond the faith is dubious per se (ipso facto) is little more than the fallacy of guilt by association. Neither the presence nor the absence of parallels of a concept outside of the Christian faith makes said concept right or wrong per se (cf. biblical parallels to ancient Near Eastern literature, culture, design, etc.). The real issue at hand pertains to what is or is not somewhere within the scope of valid Christian, patristic, or Orthodox perspective; not what might or might not have parallels outside the faith whether ancient or modern.




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« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2010, 05:59:39 PM »

Xariskai- I'm going to ask you again, in the context of this thread, what your point is. This is a thread about death metal; my original post to which you responded was directly concerned with this topic. I am aware that some fathers speak of "transfiguring" passions into virtues. How does death metal accomplish this?

Yes, Bishop Kallistos Ware is a modernist... this isn't a novel viewpoint but something that has been pointed out often by Orthodox writers much more learned than I. His popular books reveal extreme ecumenism and a willingness to jettison certain aspects of church tradition which conflict with modernist thinking (e.g., calling women's ordination an "open question", promoting Darwinism, referring to the contemporary Pope as "Patriarch of Rome", etc.).

It was not the concept of transfiguring the passions that I consider new age, but the deliberate attempt to exalt human sexuality by connecting it to divine Eros in any way beyond metaphor. This kind of teaching has appeared in some Orthodox publications and is not what the Fathers would have approved.
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« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2010, 06:06:34 PM »

  I caution people to stay away from a lot of this material.  I hope I'm not causing people grief by posting this stuff.

 Makes no sense whatsoever to caution people to stay away from something and then turn around and give access to or display it.  And if I were a mod, I would lock this extremely disturbing and satanic thread;  having videos being posted of extremely anti-Christian blasphemy is unacceptable!!!! 

Agreed!

Please people, feel free to tell us why you like this type of music without promoting it by displaying demonic lyrics and posting links to these disturbing songs and videos.

Rosehip, don't even entertain this stuff!

Selam

Had you been living in the 18th century this would be directed toward Mozart and Beethoven, with their foul late enlightenment romanticist and sometimes nationalistic music.

If you can find some overtly Satanic/ anti-Christian material in either of these composers, then your comparison would be valid.

We don't think of them as satanic today. They didn't then either. But a lot of the older, more traditional crowd worried that the new styles could encourage the losses of virtue. The same happened with ragtime, with the blues, and with every time music has changed. My comparison isn't with anti-christian or satanic music, but rather with the intense criticism of new music by those who have grown up with very different stuff.

Then your comparison is a non-sequitur. This thread is about death metal! Many of the important death metal bands (e.g. Slayer, Morbid Angel, Deicide) are overtly Satanic.

Quote
And what would you call Rammstein?

The teeny-bopper version of Laibach.  Smiley

If you want to know what black metal is, Darkthrone, Burzum, Emperor, and early Immortal are considered some defining acts. A more recent example is Wolves in the Throne Room.
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« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2010, 08:27:13 PM »

Slayer isn't really death even if they would later influence bands in that genre.
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« Reply #103 on: January 22, 2010, 10:28:44 PM »

Xariskai- I'm going to ask you again, in the context of this thread, what your point is. This is a thread about death metal; my original post to which you responded was directly concerned with this topic. I am aware that some fathers speak of "transfiguring" passions into virtues.
The point is that your specific critique of Pilgrim (quoted again below) is invalid without proper qualification.

Your post in my estimation was not so much *utterly* wrong as in need of minor caveat and qualification in its highlighting expression of darker passions as a sine qua non of why death metal is deleterious to Christian spirituality. But without proper caveat and qualification I do not regard your critique of Pilgrim's point as entirely correct as stated.

This is not a distinction without a difference insofar as it would lead me to be as sympathetic to the potential valid aspect of Pilgrim's statement to which you responded with unqualified negative counterthesis.
But I would also point out that the darker side of the human spirit deserves musical expression as well, and it will of course be much harder, harsher, and darker.
I cannot agree with this notion that, just because we feel it, it ought to be expressed. This is modern psychotherapy or pop psychology speaking. It is a perfect way to let demons take control of our lives. Orthodox spirituality tells us to combat the passions, not give them expression. Modern man thinks he can keep his passions under control by indulging them along specific channels... it's delusion. If you feel a twinge of hatred or anger or any other negative emotion, chant psalms... don't make it into a song.
If authentic spirituality precludes any and all expression of the darker side of human passion without qualification as you averred *against Pilgrim* we are left to ponder the paradox of literary expression -anthropomorphic or not- of such things as divine wrath and hatred as expressions of God's love in scripture as well as mandates to embody such things as holy hatred (e.g. of the deeds of the Nicolaitans in Revelation) and righteous anger. If it is valid to express such dark passions as divine wrath in sacred literature what happens to your *unqualified* argument that any and all artistic expression of the darker passions is wrong per se because we are divinely mandated to combat and/or redeem/transfigure the passions? Should we then take a razor and remove portions of Holy Scripture as Thomas Jefferson did? Because scripture does precisely what your *unqualified* mandate condemns. Obviously a Christian artist should proceed here with extreme caution and in the spirit of divine wisdom, but I don't think it valid simply in the name of combating the passions to argue one should not proceed along such lines at all as your post argued -whether artistically or existentially- simply in the name of combating the passions. All that having been said, to say there is certainly monumental amount of "transfiguring" to do with death metal would be the *understatement of the century* which, I think, implies there is probably more agreement than disagreement between us at the end of the day. And yes, the passions are a divinely mandated battlefield.

Quote from: Iconodule
Yes, Bishop Kallistos Ware is a modernist... this isn't a novel viewpoint but something that has been pointed out often by Orthodox writers much more learned than I. His popular books reveal extreme ecumenism and a willingness to jettison certain aspects of church tradition which conflict with modernist thinking (e.g., calling women's ordination an "open question", promoting Darwinism, referring to the contemporary Pope as "Patriarch of Rome", etc.).
Your original claim wasn't that Metropolitan Ware as a modernist on other grounds, but that the specific quote I posted revealed his modernism and 'new age spirituality.' I don't think it does and you haven't even began a legitimate attempt to demonstrate that it does as far as I can tell.

Quote from: Iconodule
It was not the concept of transfiguring the passions that I consider new age, but the deliberate attempt to exalt human sexuality by connecting it to divine Eros in any way beyond metaphor. This kind of teaching has appeared in some Orthodox publications and is not what the Fathers would have approved.
That's fine, but (1) your complaint was directed at both quotes rather than just one, and (2) valid metaphorical expression of a passion (which you grant) would open rather than shut the door to artistic expression of a passion like eros (again with requisite caution and in the spirit of divine wisdom) which was the point in question and which you denied all validity of without qualification. Song of Solomon stands as an ancient witness against that claim.
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« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2010, 11:46:09 PM »

Not really a death metal band, but I am a big fan of Israel's Orphaned Land. They blend elements of doom metal, death metal (mostly the occasional growls), and Middle Eastern music, amongst other influences.

Here's a song off their album Mabool, called "Norra El Norra".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf7i6UB5vGw&NR=1&feature=fvwp
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« Reply #105 on: February 20, 2010, 05:19:47 PM »

I don't listen to heavy metal music, but I'd like to toss in my 2 cents anyway, if it's alright  Smiley

I've alwayse thought this music was for the darker type, certainly not for Christians.  I remember a friend who used to have Korn (a band) posters in his room.  he would make me listen to that music.  I can honestly tell you that it made me feel sick.  my stomach got upset and I got the WORST headache I've ever had.  plus I've seen this genre's music videos, and they all seem so sad and depressing-even a but scary.  I find it most fascinating that there are Christians that listen to this music. 

just a good example of the diverse types we have in the faith! 
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« Reply #106 on: February 20, 2010, 05:59:05 PM »

Yeah, Korn are pretty terrible. They give me a headache as well. They're certainly no standard by which to judge metal, let alone death metal (as they fall outside that genre entirely).
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« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2010, 08:05:14 PM »

The truth about Rock Music:

http://www.philokalia.org/Constantine%20Zalalas/OTF/OTF05A.mp3
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« Reply #108 on: February 22, 2011, 04:45:47 AM »

I listen to a wide variety of music: classical, jazz, industrial, different types of metal (thrash metal, death metal, black metal, industrial metal, progressive metal, sludge metal, stoner metal, metalcore, doom metal etc) , experimental electronic, different types of rock (hard rock, classic rock, progressive rock, industrial rock, etc). I also listen to Orthodox chants.

The question of listening to the darker stuff (the darker metal, particularly black/death/doom metal) has been on my mind as I have been delving deeper into Orthodoxy. In my experience, in my past, I have found that many of these artists have gnostic undertones in their messages and lyrics.

When I was in my quest for truth, I have been through basic Protestantism, Hindu philosophy (hare krishna focused), Hermetic esoteric sciences, Neuro-Linguistic Programming and New Age metaphysics, before arriving to Orthodoxy, during the more esoteric times, I have found many many parallels of the lyrics of the artists to their esoteric state, built off their gnostic beliefs. Very frequently you would hear references to the "sun", mirror and other esoteric elements in their messages.

Now, I have been listening to metal music since I was 10 years old, gradually over the years delving deeper and deeper, and now my library includes some of the heaviest music, in genres such as Technical Death Metal and others. My whole life I have been avoiding connecting to the lyrics of the music which I listened to, until I reached deeper levels of my esoteric Hermetic and New Age practices, and in that time I smoked weed nearly every day, studying these things (yet I remained hanging on Christ throughout all of this, who pulled me out of the depths later on). I've found that those things - altered state of consciousness, esoteric practices and esoteric lyrics were used as tools by the demons to try to convert me to Gnosticism, or magickal beliefs.

When I stopped researching the esoteric arts, stopping taking drugs and smoking weed, and delved head-first into Orthodoxy, over time I have found the lyrics lost their power over me. However, at times I have found some bands, especially in black metal and some death metal, giving me an uneasy feeling when I could understand the lyrics, a slight recall to the anxiety of my darker times. However, as time went by, this feeling started to become less and less.

Now, I am a fan of music, very many types of music, but I have a special sweet spot for metal. There is something about the movements, the textures of the guitars, and the rhythms, to me is like a dance of sound, and almost like a structure built of Lego bricks in my mind. The last problem that remains is when I understand lyrics which are contrary to my faith.

I genuinely enjoy the music of a lot of these genres. I don't enjoy ALL metal, but neither do I enjoy ALL classical, etc. Whenever I feel I am listening to music to where the message of the singers is contrary to my faith, or is being used as a tool to break my spirit or faith in Christ, I pray to Christ to protect me from the message, and label the lyrics and message of the music in my mind as "inferior garbage" and not hidden messages or knowledge like they once seemed to me. The more I begin to see these rubbish lyrics as simply garbage inspired by teachings of demons, the less power they have over me.

This allows me to rejoice in the Truth of my faith, the ultimate Truth of Christ, and His victory over anything demonic. The actual music and instrumentals were composed by individual musicians who had a passion for playing their instruments, be it technical guitaring or amazing drumming, rather than composing a piece of music specifically to implant it with a Satanic or Anti-Christian, or even secular message. It is very rare that a musician would create a piece of music with that intent.

As a musician, I appreciate the God-given talents these musicians express. All human beings should be viewed as Icons of God, Images of God, and should be respected. As Christ commanded us to love our enemies, so we must respect these human beings and their talents given to them by Christ, even if they are doing things which are against our faith, we must still love them and pray for them regardless. Rather than condemning them, we are commanded by Christ not to judge others, and so we must still see them as creations of God.

As a musician, I find it incredibly important to differentiate actual music from lyrics. I hate the messages expressed by a lot of these bands, but surely if these same musicians were not deceived by our true enemy, Satan, and if they were fully aware of and understood the Glory and Goodness of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, Son of God (Have mercy on us sinners), if they truly understood this, they would not be singing or promoting the messages that they do.

But as human beings creating music, so do I too appreciate the incredible God-given talents of some of these musicians, no matter what the beliefs or the message of some of these bands may be, if the band is musically satisfying to hear, we can train ourselves and pray to Christ to protect us and separate us from the message of the lyrics, to allow us to experience the music, and glorify God for creating the faculties to allow us to hear the wonderful sounds, and for giving these people the talents to be able to play and create the music. This has been the approach I have been taking, and I have found myself being able to enjoy such music much more, with the Glory of Christ triumphantly taking away the power of the message. As for the people propagating the message, we should pray for them and their salvation, rather than condemn them.

Now, I understand I am completely unworthy to deliver my understanding as a valid genuine spiritual instruction, and I am still learning a great deal myself, and changing as my knowledge of Orthodoxy grows, so please take my words as a grain of salt. I believe music is a gift from God, and any music that we enjoy, we should do our best to iron out Satan's poison out of the music (which is generally the message of the lyrics) and pray to Christ to guard our hearts from the lyrics, and allow us to glorify him through the actual music.

As far as the question of how can anyone enjoy this music? My answer would be to compare it to spicy food. It is an acquired taste. Many people hate spicy food because for them, there is no flavour, or it is too harsh and destroys the rest of the meal. However, others have grown into it, and find great enjoyment in it, in some cases even moreso than non-spicy food!

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, Your wretched and unworthy servant.
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« Reply #109 on: February 22, 2011, 08:26:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In two years of this thread, how did Fratello Metallo not come up?  It was a black metal band officially sanctioned by the Vatican.  The good Father retired recently claiming the demons of the music industry were corrupting his message, though he did not retire from jamming black metal with his friends, just playing professionally.  This guy is intense, and he comes out with his prayer beads at that!






stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #110 on: February 22, 2011, 08:37:51 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In two years of this thread, how did Fratello Metallo not come up?  It was a black metal band officially sanctioned by the Vatican.  The good Father retired recently claiming the demons of the music industry were corrupting his message, though he did not retire from jamming black metal with his friends, just playing professionally.  This guy is intense, and he comes out with his prayer beads at that!



Officially sanctioned?
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« Reply #111 on: February 22, 2011, 09:14:14 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In two years of this thread, how did Fratello Metallo not come up?  It was a black metal band officially sanctioned by the Vatican.  The good Father retired recently claiming the demons of the music industry were corrupting his message, though he did not retire from jamming black metal with his friends, just playing professionally.  This guy is intense, and he comes out with his prayer beads at that!






stay blessed,
habte selassie


Do you know where I can find an english translation of their lyrics?
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« Reply #112 on: February 22, 2011, 10:00:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In two years of this thread, how did Fratello Metallo not come up?  It was a black metal band officially sanctioned by the Vatican.  The good Father retired recently claiming the demons of the music industry were corrupting his message, though he did not retire from jamming black metal with his friends, just playing professionally.  This guy is intense, and he comes out with his prayer beads at that!



Officially sanctioned?

And they're not black metal either.
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« Reply #113 on: February 22, 2011, 10:02:26 PM »

Yeah, Korn are pretty terrible. They give me a headache as well. They're certainly no standard by which to judge metal, let alone death metal (as they fall outside that genre entirely).

"Mall metal" is probably the best label.
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« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2011, 04:50:11 AM »

I'm quite surprised that many people on this forum (I'm assuming they are christians) seem to like death metal music. I was always taught that this was not suitable music for the christian, and seeing some of the images recently posted in another thread, I can appreciate why it was forbidden in my former faith. So, I would like to ask those of you who seem to like and listen to this genre why you enjoy this and why you feel it is acceptable for a christian to listen to something with such horrific and psychologically traumatizing imagery. Thanks.


I miss Rosehip.  Sad


Selam
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« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2011, 06:02:58 AM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it. I’ve been searching for a non-horrible metal song like the Holy Grail, but whenever I find a cup to drink from, my face melts off like the Nazi in The Last Crusade. Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.
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« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2011, 06:34:12 AM »

Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

Manowar - Metal Warriors

Every one of us has heard the call
Brothers of True Metal proud and standing tall
We know the power within us has brought us to this hall
there's magic in the metal there's magic is us all

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers go on get out
Leave the hall

Now the world must listen to our decree
We don't turn down for anyone we do just what we please
got to make it louder, all men play on ten
If you're not into metal, you are not my friend

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers I said
Leave the hall

Now the world must listen to our decree
We don't turn down for anyone we do just what we please
Got to make it louder, all men play on ten
If you're not into metal, you are not my friend

There's metal in the air tonite, can you hear it call
If you ain't got the balls, to take it you can
Leave the hall

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
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« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2011, 07:03:16 AM »

Solidifying my point  Wink
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« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2011, 08:53:02 AM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it. I’ve been searching for a non-horrible metal song like the Holy Grail, but whenever I find a cup to drink from, my face melts off like the Nazi in The Last Crusade. Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

I'm with you brother! Wonderfully stated! Grin However, I shall try hard not to begrudge others their tastes. But I struggle to see how the vibe of "Death Metal" can ever be conducive to the cultivation of a righteous spirit.  That's just me though; not saying it isn't possible.


Selam
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« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2011, 09:00:28 AM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it.

I've found that metal is a very diverse and complicated genre, to the point where there is some metal that has little commonality with other forms. I tend to prefer the folkier forms of black, death, and doom metal:

Empyrium- "Mourners"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-zIM6_mYzE

Ulver- " I Troldskog Faren Vild"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNyIWBCFq5Y

Summoning- "South Away"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJqVkJq_9Ow

Moonsorrow- "Jumalten Kaupunki"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcT_arJIRCA

The Vision Bleak- "The Shining Trapezohedron"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJnYYms6NA4

Personally I've never been a huge fan of "classic" metal, but if you don't like Iron Maiden's "Aces High," you don't like ice cream:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUK6ScAeFKE&feature=fvst

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« Reply #120 on: February 23, 2011, 10:28:10 AM »

Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

Manowar - Metal Warriors

Every one of us has heard the call
Brothers of True Metal proud and standing tall
We know the power within us has brought us to this hall
there's magic in the metal there's magic is us all

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers go on get out
Leave the hall

Now the world must listen to our decree
We don't turn down for anyone we do just what we please
got to make it louder, all men play on ten
If you're not into metal, you are not my friend

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers I said
Leave the hall

Now the world must listen to our decree
We don't turn down for anyone we do just what we please
Got to make it louder, all men play on ten
If you're not into metal, you are not my friend

There's metal in the air tonite, can you hear it call
If you ain't got the balls, to take it you can
Leave the hall

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall


Yeah, this seems appropriate for a Christian forum.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #121 on: February 23, 2011, 10:46:28 AM »

Iron Maiden's "The Longest Day", a song about D-Day.

From the undulating bass line at the beginning which calls to mind the Higgins boats crossing the channel and the incredible drumming in the intro mimicking the sound of the artillery from the beach to the fearful joy of the vocals and the chaotic yet melodic guitar solos which recall the confusion of battle, this song is most definitely art.

Another song of theirs which also does a fantastic job of portraying the romantically tragic feel of war is "Passchendale, particularly the way the beginning goes from a rhythmic pattern recalling Morse Code and then to the soft lone guitar simile which breaks out into loud bombastic chords; this effect is also successful in the middle-eight, which feels like the lull before a big push.  The guitar solos are brilliant as Dave Murray brings us out of the trench with a hopeful "HURRAH!" only to have it cut down by Adrian Smith's staccato melody which, to me, at least, sounds like machine gun fire.  Janick Gers' final lead brings it home with one of his patented solos which conveys the brutal truth of No Man's Land after another ill-fated push from the trenches.
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« Reply #122 on: February 23, 2011, 11:00:25 AM »

Iron Maiden's "The Longest Day", a song about D-Day.

From the undulating bass line at the beginning which calls to mind the Higgins boats crossing the channel and the incredible drumming in the intro mimicking the sound of the artillery from the beach to the fearful joy of the vocals and the chaotic yet melodic guitar solos which recall the confusion of battle, this song is most definitely art.

Another song of theirs which also does a fantastic job of portraying the romantically tragic feel of war is "Passchendale, particularly the way the beginning goes from a rhythmic pattern recalling Morse Code and then to the soft lone guitar simile which breaks out into loud bombastic chords; this effect is also successful in the middle-eight, which feels like the lull before a big push.  The guitar solos are brilliant as Dave Murray brings us out of the trench with a hopeful "HURRAH!" only to have it cut down by Adrian Smith's staccato melody which, to me, at least, sounds like machine gun fire.  Janick Gers' final lead brings it home with one of his patented solos which conveys the brutal truth of No Man's Land after another ill-fated push from the trenches.

I might have to listen to "Passchendale" when I get home.  That would have been a crappy battle to have been involved in.  Have your heard Sabaton's Price of a Mile?  It's also about Passchendale.
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« Reply #123 on: February 23, 2011, 05:09:31 PM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it. I’ve been searching for a non-horrible metal song like the Holy Grail, but whenever I find a cup to drink from, my face melts off like the Nazi in The Last Crusade. Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-68oA61_yuw

We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears
We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears

But what wisdom is there within us
To live based on the feeling of our hearts?
How many times has instinct let us down
Never to be thought through
Never to be questioned

Say what you really mean
When your ambition calls you, calls you
For what use is there in praying
If you will only hear what you want to hear?

We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears

We speak of fighting to resist this world
But what about the battle within us?
If we have chosen to live against the grain
Then why are we all facing the same way?

There is no difference between us and them
If we all blindly seek truth from sentiments

We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears

We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears
We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears
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« Reply #124 on: February 23, 2011, 05:17:11 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

All this arose in their wake.

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« Reply #125 on: February 23, 2011, 05:27:29 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

All this arose in their wake.

Anything in particular that did it?
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« Reply #126 on: February 23, 2011, 05:30:05 PM »

I'm quite surprised that many people on this forum (I'm assuming they are christians) seem to like death metal music. I was always taught that this was not suitable music for the christian, and seeing some of the images recently posted in another thread, I can appreciate why it was forbidden in my former faith. So, I would like to ask those of you who seem to like and listen to this genre why you enjoy this and why you feel it is acceptable for a christian to listen to something with such horrific and psychologically traumatizing imagery. Thanks.


I miss Rosehip.  Sad


Selam

Me too.  She was always so gentle and yet to the point. 
Hopefully, she's resting peacefully.

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« Reply #127 on: February 23, 2011, 05:48:59 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

All this arose in their wake.

Anything in particular that did it?

Did what?

I was being hyperbolic about everything arising in their wake., but you would be hard not to see their influence on the "death metal / black metal" which rises above the fray. "Sludge metal / southern death metal" certainly is hugely indebted to Neurosis.

I haven't followed anything stuff seriously for years. Was driving past a venue one night with a buddy just within the last year and heard some actually decent stuff. So we got out. Great show. I asked the guys their biggest influence, in spite of the typical "punk" patches they were wearing: Neurosis.

Even post-folk stuff has their stamp. When I first Newsome's second album, I knew I heard a quick musical nod to Neurosis, looked her up and indeed she was a fan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis_(band)

Enemy of the Sun was a game changer for me. Kid grew up listening to nothing but hip-hop and ole tyme Gospel.

 
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« Reply #128 on: February 23, 2011, 05:54:44 PM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it. I’ve been searching for a non-horrible metal song like the Holy Grail, but whenever I find a cup to drink from, my face melts off like the Nazi in The Last Crusade. Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

I'm with you brother! Wonderfully stated! Grin However, I shall try hard not to begrudge others their tastes. But I struggle to see how the vibe of "Death Metal" can ever be conducive to the cultivation of a righteous spirit.  That's just me though; not saying it isn't possible.


Selam

And I don't understand how "reggae", except for the early "ska / dance hall", can lead to anything after listening for more than 3.67 minutes other than wanting to shove a screwdriver into my eardrum.

These various music "niches" grew out of certain alt-cultural communities, which have a lot more in common in with the "ethical" side of Christianity than most other pop genres.

 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 05:55:28 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #129 on: February 23, 2011, 06:44:43 PM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it. I’ve been searching for a non-horrible metal song like the Holy Grail, but whenever I find a cup to drink from, my face melts off like the Nazi in The Last Crusade. Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

I'm with you brother! Wonderfully stated! Grin However, I shall try hard not to begrudge others their tastes. But I struggle to see how the vibe of "Death Metal" can ever be conducive to the cultivation of a righteous spirit.  That's just me though; not saying it isn't possible.


Selam

And I don't understand how "reggae", except for the early "ska / dance hall", can lead to anything after listening for more than 3.67 minutes other than wanting to shove a screwdriver into my eardrum.

These various music "niches" grew out of certain alt-cultural communities, which have a lot more in common in with the "ethical" side of Christianity than most other pop genres.

 

Don't be talking trash about Reggae, man.  Everything has a time and a place.  There is a time for Amon Amarth (rush hour traffic) and a time for Toots and the Maytals (after surviving rush hour traffic).
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« Reply #130 on: February 23, 2011, 06:54:51 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

All this arose in their wake.

Anything in particular that did it?

Did what?

I was being hyperbolic about everything arising in their wake., but you would be hard not to see their influence on the "death metal / black metal" which rises above the fray. "Sludge metal / southern death metal" certainly is hugely indebted to Neurosis.

I haven't followed anything stuff seriously for years. Was driving past a venue one night with a buddy just within the last year and heard some actually decent stuff. So we got out. Great show. I asked the guys their biggest influence, in spite of the typical "punk" patches they were wearing: Neurosis.

Even post-folk stuff has their stamp. When I first Newsome's second album, I knew I heard a quick musical nod to Neurosis, looked her up and indeed she was a fan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis_(band)

Enemy of the Sun was a game changer for me. Kid grew up listening to nothing but hip-hop and ole tyme Gospel.

OK. Never heard of them before for some reason.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #131 on: February 23, 2011, 08:21:03 PM »

Quote
And I don't understand how "reggae", except for the early "ska / dance hall", can lead to anything after listening for more than 3.67 minutes other than wanting to shove a screwdriver into my eardrum.
Absolutely. I have heard one reggae song in my life that I enjoy, and I can't even remember the name of it. It would actually take 2 screwdrivers to take care of the problem though. Unless of course you are deaf in one ear...
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« Reply #132 on: February 23, 2011, 08:31:46 PM »

I'm quite surprised that many people on this forum (I'm assuming they are christians) seem to like death metal music. I was always taught that this was not suitable music for the christian, and seeing some of the images recently posted in another thread, I can appreciate why it was forbidden in my former faith. So, I would like to ask those of you who seem to like and listen to this genre why you enjoy this and why you feel it is acceptable for a christian to listen to something with such horrific and psychologically traumatizing imagery. Thanks.


I miss Rosehip.  Sad


Selam

Me too, brother.  Her question above went straight to the point, yet was not acrimonious.  That's how I remember her always being. 
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« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2011, 05:32:55 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4FpVWOoI-8&feature=related  Smiley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4eX2NogBEs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs7i_ckEHVA&feature=relatedCheesy does he try to look like Jesus!?
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« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2011, 05:57:23 PM »

Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it.

Excellent!
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