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Author Topic: Death Metal Music  (Read 17213 times) Average Rating: 0
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Rosehip
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« on: December 06, 2009, 03:55:02 PM »

I'm quite surprised that many people on this forum (I'm assuming they are christians) seem to like death metal music. I was always taught that this was not suitable music for the christian, and seeing some of the images recently posted in another thread, I can appreciate why it was forbidden in my former faith. So, I would like to ask those of you who seem to like and listen to this genre why you enjoy this and why you feel it is acceptable for a christian to listen to something with such horrific and psychologically traumatizing imagery. Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 03:56:16 PM by Rosehip » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2009, 04:04:53 PM »

Don't forget black metal! Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2009, 04:43:55 PM »

Yes, indeed. Thanks, Asteriktos. Now, I am curious why christians would want to listen to this kind of stuff. I personally can't get through a few seconds of this music without feeling ill and very traumatized, so I haven't listened to much. I'd like to hear from those of you who listen to this stuff and to know how you reconcile it to being a christian.
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2009, 05:00:57 PM »

It's a guy thing. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 05:06:14 PM »

I'm a dude, and I thought that stuff was for crazy people.  But then again, I used to listen to provocative hip hop music when I was a teen.
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009, 05:18:04 PM »

Larry Norman - Why Should The Devil Have All The Good Music?
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2009, 05:53:32 PM »

When I was a Christian, I reconciled it in the same way that early Christians reconciled that they read literature filled with immorality: I took what I found enjoyable or useful, and rejected the rest. I didn't listen to much black or death metal, but I did listen to bands that had lyrics which most Christians would dislike. Personally, I find so-called classical music to be much more traumatizing, but that's just me. Wink
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2009, 06:29:50 PM »

I'm a dude, and I thought that stuff was for crazy people. 

I'm a dude and I still do. Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2009, 06:46:30 PM »

Rosehip, I don't still listen to Satanic black metal.  I sold all of it about a year ago.  I just occasionally reference it for kicks.  It's the "culture" I cut my teeth in.  I've been listening to extreme metal since I was about 14, and before that more extreme forms of rock since I was about 10.  So I've been listening to metal now for about 15 years.

I still listen to some death and black metal, but I'm very selective as far as the content of the music is concerned.  However, as I move close and closer to Orthodoxy, I am less and less interested in the music and culture at all.  Maybe it's just growing up, or maybe its wising up.

But most of it is very disturbing; that's sort of the point.  I hope God forgives me for many things in that period of my life, but most of "metal" isn't really a big deal.  The imagery is theatrical, just like in the liturgy.

The really disturbing Satanic stuff is pretty far in the underground.  But as a teen, Christian metal was my gateway drug.  I still listen to some Christian metal like Extol, but again, I'm just not as interested these days.  Maybe it will come back at some other point in my life, but for now I don't really care.  I'm too busy lapping up desert wisdom and figuring out my many sins to listen to depressing, evil music.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 06:46:55 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2009, 07:34:58 PM »

Thanks for your gracious replies. I am sorry if I offended anyone, because that wasn't my desire. Just trying to understand.
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2009, 10:02:51 PM »

I used to listen to King's X, back in the day. Not Christian death metal, though -- more like Christian Jimi Hendrix-meets-Zeppelin. Shocked
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« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 12:04:24 PM »

Not a fan of metal at all. To me its just "ugly" music.
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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2009, 02:11:08 PM »

I don't care at all for modern metal as it seems many of the artists try too hard to be shocking or to push the envelope on what can be legally shown in public (I'm thinking of Marilyn Manson here).  I do still like the old metal bands like Black Sabbath and Alice Cooper, though.  They actually had a story to tell and as far as I can tell their stage act was theatre.
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2009, 08:33:18 PM »

I happen to like a lot of Death Metal, Black Metal, etc.  It's good music.  Lyrically, it may leave something to be desired as well as their vocals, but it's good music.  One can like the music and not subscribe to the ideology behind it. 

Hell, I like U2, but I'm no fan of Bono's political ideology.  I don't think, though, that the black metal guys are out there promoting whatever they believe like Bono does.
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« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2009, 04:04:48 PM »


Hell, I like U2, but I'm no fan of Bono's political ideology. 
You don't support debt relief?
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2009, 10:40:12 PM »

I adore metal and have a massive death, black and thrash metal collection. Among the many anti-Christian albums in my collection I have one called 'Dechristianize' by a band called Vital Remains which has songs with titles such as 'At War With God,' 'Hammer Down The Nails,' and 'Saviour To None, Failure To All.' My favourite song by the Swedish thrash/death metal band At The Gates is 'Raped By The Light Of Christ,' which has some beautiful guitar melodies and is really well composed. I also have a huge collection of nihilistic black metal such as Gorgoroth, who have songs such as 'Twilight Of The Idols.' One of my favourite bands, Amon Amarth, have a song which describes (and glorifies) a party of Vikings pillaging a Christian village, raping the women and burning the church to the ground. It's an awesome song, too. I can practice artistic distancing when I listen to music - I don't have to agree with the message of the lyrics to appreciate it musically, from a compositional and instrumental standpoint. I have to admire the existential consciousness of the lyrics, though.
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2009, 10:54:17 PM »

I adore metal and have a massive death, black and thrash metal collection. Among the many anti-Christian albums in my collection I have one called 'Dechristianize' by a band called Vital Remains which has songs with titles such as 'At War With God,' 'Hammer Down The Nails,' and 'Saviour To None, Failure To All.' My favourite song by the Swedish thrash/death metal band At The Gates is 'Raped By The Light Of Christ,' which has some beautiful guitar melodies and is really well composed. I also have a huge collection of nihilistic black metal such as Gorgoroth, who have songs such as 'Twilight Of The Idols.' One of my favourite bands, Amon Amarth, have a song which describes (and glorifies) a party of Vikings pillaging a Christian village, raping the women and burning the church to the ground. It's an awesome song, too. I can practice artistic distancing when I listen to music - I don't have to agree with the message of the lyrics to appreciate it musically, from a compositional and instrumental standpoint. I have to admire the existential consciousness of the lyrics, though.

Friend, this is gonna be something you don't want to hear; It's not meant to be judgmental towards you, but it's gonna be harsh and it's something that needs to be said.  What you've described is not only Satanic, but absolutely detrimental.  If you think you can truly listen to this Satanic music and not have it affect your nous, you not only lack discernment but you lack even a basic understanding of your faith.  As your friend and fellow brother-in-Christ, I urge you to please reconsider.
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2009, 10:54:49 PM »

I adore metal and have a massive death, black and thrash metal collection. Among the many anti-Christian albums in my collection I have one called 'Dechristianize' by a band called Vital Remains which has songs with titles such as 'At War With God,' 'Hammer Down The Nails,' and 'Saviour To None, Failure To All.' My favourite song by the Swedish thrash/death metal band At The Gates is 'Raped By The Light Of Christ,' which has some beautiful guitar melodies and is really well composed. I also have a huge collection of nihilistic black metal such as Gorgoroth, who have songs such as 'Twilight Of The Idols.' One of my favourite bands, Amon Amarth, have a song which describes (and glorifies) a party of Vikings pillaging a Christian village, raping the women and burning the church to the ground. It's an awesome song, too. I can practice artistic distancing when I listen to music - I don't have to agree with the message of the lyrics to appreciate it musically, from a compositional and instrumental standpoint. I have to admire the existential consciousness of the lyrics, though.
Shocked Do you hum the lyrics?
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2009, 11:24:17 PM »

Regarding lyrics, I think there are a lot of factors to consider. Take Slayer. They use an anti-Christian facade as a gimmick to sell themselves, they don't actually believe the stuff they have in their lyrics. Then you have a band like Megadeth, whose lyric-writer Mustaine was interested in the occult early on, but later became a Christian. One of my favorite Megadeth songs is Looking Down the Cross, but the lyrics aren't nearly as bad as one might assume. Certainly Metallica have stuff that's anti-Christian... I mean, who do you think the song The God That Failed is about? Wink But are their lyrics really so far out there that they are unlistenable for a Christian? Then there's a band like Manowar--a whole world unto themselves. They have lyrics like:

Rip Their Flesh Burn Their Hearts
Stab Them In The Eyes
Rape Their Women As They Cry
Kill Their Servants Burn Their Homes
Till There’s No Blood Left To Spill
Hail And Kill

Ok, not exactly peaceful and loving. But Manowar lyrics and their image are generally so cheesy that no one takes them seriously (though they do get some wonderfully-corny lines in here and there, like "If you do not like metal, you are not my friend!") Then there are bands like Mastodon, who fluctuate between seemingly meaningless words strung together, to trippy stuff like:

Spiraling up through the crack in the sky
Leaving material world behind
I see your face in constellations
The martyr is ending his life for mine

I have a moderate amount of Christian metal, and their lyrics can be just as bad. Not that they sing about killing and raping people, but the theology can sometimes be so poor, and the lyrics so triumphalistic and condescending, that they are about as unlistenable or unlikeable as anything put out by secular bands.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 11:25:10 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2009, 11:28:57 PM »

This is all even worse than I ever imagined... Cry
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2009, 11:32:48 PM »

I adore metal and have a massive death, black and thrash metal collection. Among the many anti-Christian albums in my collection I have one called 'Dechristianize' by a band called Vital Remains which has songs with titles such as 'At War With God,' 'Hammer Down The Nails,' and 'Saviour To None, Failure To All.' My favourite song by the Swedish thrash/death metal band At The Gates is 'Raped By The Light Of Christ,' which has some beautiful guitar melodies and is really well composed. I also have a huge collection of nihilistic black metal such as Gorgoroth, who have songs such as 'Twilight Of The Idols.' One of my favourite bands, Amon Amarth, have a song which describes (and glorifies) a party of Vikings pillaging a Christian village, raping the women and burning the church to the ground. It's an awesome song, too. I can practice artistic distancing when I listen to music - I don't have to agree with the message of the lyrics to appreciate it musically, from a compositional and instrumental standpoint. I have to admire the existential consciousness of the lyrics, though.

You're still a teenager.  If you stay involved, you'll likely head deeper into the underground.  Gorgoroth is only phase one.  It gets a lot more serious and a lot darker the further in you get.  Be aware, I used to own thousands of these albums.  Whether you acknowledge it or not, these things affect you.

I do still listen to At the Gates.  I love the Gardens of Grief EP.  Old school Swedish Death Metal is my vice.
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2009, 11:36:41 PM »

Regarding lyrics, I think there are a lot of factors to consider...(snip)  But are their lyrics really so far out there that they are unlistenable for a Christian?
My answer would be, "For all Christians? Yes.  For this Christian? Absolutely."


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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2009, 11:41:06 PM »

Regarding lyrics, I think there are a lot of factors to consider...(snip)  But are their lyrics really so far out there that they are unlistenable for a Christian?
My answer would be, "For all Christians? Yes.  For this Christian? Absolutely."

You know, some people in the early Church said the same thing about ancient Greek literature. "How could a real Christian read such immoral tales?" Not a few apologists detailed all the immoral stuff in such texts. Yet St. Basil says that Christian youth should read such literature, taking what is good and leaving what isn't. He even likens it to a primer for the Bible.
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2009, 12:06:18 AM »

It doesn't affect me, though. It used to, back when I was a fifteen year-old atheist who spent his time plotting ways to burn churches. I used to be a wholly anti-Christian militant. Some friends and I came very near to burning a church on one occasion, and it wasn't just for thrills, it was out of a deep hatred for Christianity. That was long before I found God, found Christ, and found his Church. My attitudes are vastly different now - I certainly don't endorse any of the things those songs do. Nonetheless, the powerful rhythms and epic melodies of those kinds of music are still extremely aesthetically pleasing. I enjoy the guitar riffs, I enjoy the powerful thumping drum beat which mirrors the lyrics - 'ten heavy feet walk the blood-soiled ground,' the brutal vocals, the epic solos, etc. It's uplifting and empowering. That kind of music feels you with strength. I'm an adult, and capable of discernment enough to differentiate between message and medium. I can admire the Qur'an as well - I've read it, and it is quite beautiful in some places. I've also read the Norse sagas, of the death of Baldur, Odin's crucifixion upon Yggdrasil, Ragnarok, etc. It's epic, and I was powerfully moved as I read it. That doesn't mean I believe these stories, even though they are of a religious nature. It absolutely is possible to admire something artistically even if you disagree with the concept that underpins it fundamentally.

Alveus - yes, I'm still a teenager, but I'm long past my lowest point in that scene, as I mentioned above. I don't listen to a fraction of the amount of metal I used to. When I was a young angsty kid it was extremely cathartic and matched my feelings at the time. The same cannot be said now.

I also listen to Islamic nasheeds. I even sing along to them. They're beautiful. I can assure you, I'm not a Muslim, nor am I in any danger of becoming one, no matter how many times I sing along with "la ilaha il-Allah, Muhammad'un rasul-ullah." It's called artistic distancing. Just because it may not be possible for you does not mean it is impossible for me.
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2009, 12:09:55 AM »

Okay, I just listened to "Twilight of the Thunder God" by Amon Amarth. I can see how the Viking setting is appealing, romantic in a way. But the "singing" itself I found very neanderthalish. I couldn't understand a word of it, so I had to look up the lyrics. Haven't listened to the one about the pillaging of a Christian village yet though.
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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2009, 12:12:43 AM »

Regarding lyrics, I think there are a lot of factors to consider...(snip)  But are their lyrics really so far out there that they are unlistenable for a Christian?
My answer would be, "For all Christians? Yes.  For this Christian? Absolutely."

You know, some people in the early Church said the same thing about ancient Greek literature. "How could a real Christian read such immoral tales?" Not a few apologists detailed all the immoral stuff in such texts. Yet St. Basil says that Christian youth should read such literature, taking what is good and leaving what isn't. He even likens it to a primer for the Bible.

And yet I'm equally as sure that St. Basil would have these same youths submit to their spiritual father... even if that meant they weren't allowed to read such literature.  I'm not suggesting you're advocating this, but to assume all youths are spiritually equally inclined and/or have the same discernment abilities would be remiss at best and dangerous at worst.
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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2009, 12:15:34 AM »

The growls are an aquired taste, for sure. When I first got into death metal I couldn't stand the vocals, but over time I got used to the sound, and soon began to appreciate that style of vocals quite a lot. I don't struggle at all to understand the lyrics now - as you get used to the sound it becomes easier to understand what is being said.

The one that features the lyrics about pillaging the Christian village is 'Victorious March,' possibly my favourite song from its album.
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« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2009, 12:16:40 AM »

It doesn't affect me, though. It used to, back when I was a fifteen year-old atheist who spent his time plotting ways to burn churches. I used to be a wholly anti-Christian militant. Some friends and I came very near to burning a church on one occasion, and it wasn't just for thrills, it was out of a deep hatred for Christianity. That was long before I found God, found Christ, and found his Church. My attitudes are vastly different now - I certainly don't endorse any of the things those songs do. Nonetheless, the powerful rhythms and epic melodies of those kinds of music are still extremely aesthetically pleasing. I enjoy the guitar riffs, I enjoy the powerful thumping drum beat which mirrors the lyrics - 'ten heavy feet pound the blood-soiled ground,' the brutal vocals, the epic solos, etc. It's uplifting and empowering. That kind of music feels you with strength. I'm an adult, and capable of discernment enough to differentiate between message and medium. I can admire the Qur'an as well - I've read it, and it is quite beautiful in some places. I've also read the Norse sagas, of the death of Baldur, Odin's crucifixion upon Yggdrasil, Ragnarok, etc. It's epic, and I was powerfully moved as I read it. That doesn't mean I believe these stories, even though they are of a religious nature. It absolutely is possible to admire something artistically even if you disagree with the concept that underpins it fundamentally.

Alveus - yes, I'm still a teenager, but I'm long past my lowest point in that scene, as I mentioned above. I don't listen to a fraction of the amount of metal I used to. When I was a young angsty kid it was extremely cathartic and matched my feelings at the time. The same cannot be said now.

I also listen to Islamic nasheeds. I even sing along to them. They're beautiful. I can assure you, I'm not a Muslim, nor am I in any danger of becoming one, no matter how many times I sing along with "la ilaha il-Allah, Muhammad'un rasul-ullah." It's called artistic distancing. Just because it may not be possible for you does not mean it is impossible for me.

Relax, friend.  No one's forcing you to give up anything.  But what kind of a brother would I be if I didn't say anything?  And in addition, Alveus seems to have come from the same background (musically speaking) as yourself, so I would pay close attention to his cautions.
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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2009, 12:18:33 AM »

Metallica?  Megadeth?  I thought this conversation was about death metal!  Posers!  Tongue

Well, I don't listen to death metal, myself.  Grin

I do enjoy a few variations of the metal sub-genre's, however.  With me, as with most of the respondents (when they aren't trying to shock Rosehip, bad, bad respondents!) it boils down to the music.  Now, as with just about every musical style one needs to be acquainted with said music in order to appreciate that there is actually music and not just some noise.  To the uneducated even classical could sound a horrid cacophony.  I mention classical because the metal I appreciate hits many of the same notes and variations of classical music, just does it at a faster tempo and with distorted guitars replacing violins, though I also enjoy the bluesier metal as well.

As regards Satanism in metal, in the late '60s and early '70s many rock bands realized that they could fairly easily spike record sales by injecting the odd reference to Satan or criticism of religion.  This was because not only did the parental "shock factor" induce many rebellious teens to buy the album; but it also induced many of the more "fundamentalist Christian" variety to go out and buy as many copies of said albums as could be afforded, in order to throw said albums on big fires and "keep them from the hands of impressionable youth".  Album sales are album sales, and as the '70s wore on it became increasingly necessary to "up the ante" on the objectionable content as parents became more and more immune to "shock".  By the '80s, the only metal bands that weren't using satanic imagery were "Christian" metal bands (which had a "shock factor" all it's own).

During the mid-80s there was enough cross-pollination between the hardcore punk "thrash" bands and metal bands that the satanic imagery was somewhat diluted, and the metal scene further fragmented.  Radio played "hair metal", college radio played "heavy metal", with death metal being seen as being too objectionable to be marketable, as the 80s were also the decade that many politicians decided to take aim at Ozzy Osbourne because a few suicidal teens owned his albums<----- the reason I did not vote for Al Gore in 2000.

During the 1990s the more satanic metal got a boost in popularity, again thanks to "Fundamentalist Christians".  I remember a nearby church buying up all the tickets to a Marilyn Manson show in order to prevent children from hearing his "anti-Christian message".  Mr Manson was so pleased at the sold-out ticket sales that he scheduled another show the following night (far more effective, IMO, was the other nearby church that bought pizza for all the kids waiting in line to get tickets.  There were some VERY confused kids in the line that night).  And rebellious teenagers for whom dressing in plaid shirts and ripped jeans wasn't rebellious enough, but who just couldn't get into that whole "Goth" thing, had a new Mecca for ticking off their parents.

At the end of the day, however, the lyrics really have little impact, and are more often cartoonish parodies of satanism than actual satanism itself.

That said, one thing I would love to hunt down, just for the curiosity value, would be the album by Kryst the Konqueror, the christian metal band started by Jerry Only of the Misfits in response to ex-Misfits Danzig's band Samhain.

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Okay, I just listened to "Twilight of the Thunder God" by Amon Amarth. I can see how the Viking setting is appealing, romantic in a way. But the "singing" itself I found very neanderthalish. I couldn't understand a word of it, so I had to look up the lyrics. Haven't listened to the one about the pillaging of a Christian village yet though.

Very good, you deserve something nice for that punishment: do a google search for "Cats immigrant song"  Grin
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« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2009, 12:35:40 AM »

LOL. Yes indeed, I do deserve some sort of compensation for dutifully looking up and listening to those songs.  Wink

After listening to this "Victorious March" (actually it didn't manage to even capture my interest long enough to listen to the whole thing-and the way they thrashed their heads about was just plain weird, not to speak of possibly dangerous), I'm not so worried anymore. No offense to you, Feanor, but it wasn't really that exciting... Cry
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« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2009, 12:57:32 AM »

I understand Wink - not many people enjoy that sort of music. It certainly is amazingly uplifting and empowering once you really get into it, but it's not for everyone. People who listen to death metal usually get into it via a bridge of bands/genres which progressively increase in heaviness. For example, someone might start out listening to rock, and then hard rock such as Led Zeppelin or AC/DC, and then move on to thrash like Metallica or Megadeth, and then even heavier thrash such as Slayer, which then leads to death metal, which then leads to black metal. It's a gradual slope of acquired taste. It's pretty much impossible to jump in at the deep end and reap any satisfaction or enjoyment.
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« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2009, 01:06:52 AM »

... Ozzy Osbourne...

 Interesting you should bring up the Oz-man.  I love the guy and his music going way back to his Black Sabbath days.  But I've really had to struggle to curb my listening of him because a lot of his stuff truly is satanic.  I use this example simply to show that it is truly difficult in being an Orthodox Christian.
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2009, 01:19:34 AM »

I don't know what genre this is as it is unique.  But it does have an element of "heaviness" to it in their music, and that is the band Evanescence.  I never would have imagined such heavy music can be beautified by the amazing voice of the band's lead singer.  I was hooked and I became a fan.

What genre would that be?  Because if anything, when I hear other band's heavy metals, the loudness and darkness mixed with their lyrics and their yelling (that's an understatement, more like daily laryngeal bleeding), was really hard to swallow.  Does Evanescence fall into the same genre?  It seems she mixes classical with heavy metal in a way I could never have imagined.
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« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2009, 01:37:01 AM »

Some of the lyrics and images in the videos below may be controversial. User discretion is advised.

--YtterbiumAnalyst


Everybody keeps talking about the lamest, non-Death Metal bands in this thread!

If you want some truly blasphemous and evil death metal, stop talking about top 40 bands.

Dead Congregation (from Greece and specifically rejecting Orthodoxy) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29U55hcbAzw at 6:30 it even has Byzantine Chant.  This song is actually about the Eucharist being cast on the ground and consumed by rodents.  I don't post this to endorse it, but just to give an example of how serious this material can get.

Incantation - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcPVF2jd6X0

Ignivomous - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pucsXy3qgS4

This will likely sound like total cacophony to many of you, but the music is actually highly technical and deliberate in its style.
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« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2009, 01:53:27 AM »

^^That stuff's definitely the most sinister and unsettling I've heard so far. Weirdly, the haunting greek church singing seems to fit right in... I guess I should be thankful I've enough gloom in my life without needing any more...The growls certainly are not appealing in the least. But I suppose this caveman-style is appealing men?  Undecided
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« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2009, 02:06:36 AM »

I don't know what genre this is as it is unique.  But it does have an element of "heaviness" to it in their music, and that is the band Evanescence.  I never would have imagined such heavy music can be beautified by the amazing voice of the band's lead singer.  I was hooked and I became a fan.

What genre would that be?  Because if anything, when I hear other band's heavy metals, the loudness and darkness mixed with their lyrics and their yelling (that's an understatement, more like daily laryngeal bleeding), was really hard to swallow.  Does Evanescence fall into the same genre?  It seems she mixes classical with heavy metal in a way I could never have imagined.

I would call Evanescence hard rock (though on the 'lighter' side of that genre). Some would also characterize it as Goth Rock, but I don't find that genre definition very useful as it has more to do with visual style and song themes than the actual music which still falls into a fairly broad swathe. It's not heavy metal. And *definitely* not death metal. Those are much heavier styles.

If you like hard rock with ethereal vocals (a particular weakness of mine as well), you might see if you can find anything by Olivia or Nakashima Mika's album the End (both Japanese artists so no idea how easy they'd be for you to find). Maybe also the Sisters of Mercy album Floodland and Concrete Blonde.
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« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2009, 02:08:32 AM »

The growls certainly are not appealing in the least.

The vocals are an acquired taste.  I've been listening to the stuff for so long that it's totally normal to me.

This is an example of Black Metal, which is much more strongly associated with Satanism and anti-Christianity than Death Metal:

Watain - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iItLyszPK2A
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« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2009, 02:09:35 AM »

Try this, if you feel up to some punishment. Watch the video, don't just listen to the songs. This is genuinely disturbing, and I struggle to get through it:

Vital Remains - 'Let The Killing Begin' & 'Dechristianize' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH15p4WbEUc

I'm enjoying the music of Dead Congregation so far, though the guitarist is fairly average by death metal standards. I'm quite impressed by the drummer. They're still pretty solid though.
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« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2009, 02:18:25 AM »

I'm enjoying the music of Dead Congregation so far, though the guitarist is fairly average by death metal standards. I'm quite impressed by the drummer.

They're a part of the traditional or "old school" revival.  They're not trying to be Cryptopsy.  It's much more about the atmosphere than pin-drop accuracy.  It's even a little "sloppy."

Anyway, it was just an example.  I caution people to stay away from a lot of this material.  I hope I'm not causing people grief by posting this stuff.

I absolutely hate stuff like Vital Remains.  Drawn & Quartered are much better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEP92HbDdew
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« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2009, 03:27:28 AM »

  I caution people to stay away from a lot of this material.  I hope I'm not causing people grief by posting this stuff.

 Makes no sense whatsoever to caution people to stay away from something and then turn around and give access to or display it.  And if I were a mod, I would lock this extremely disturbing and satanic thread;  having videos being posted of extremely anti-Christian blasphemy is unacceptable!!!! 
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« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2009, 03:31:28 AM »

Gabriel, the thread is entirely my fault. I encouraged it all by my insatiable curiosity... EmbarrassedMods, if this thread is not acceptable, then please do lock it, or take whatever measures are required. However, any blame please place only on my shoulders.
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« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2009, 03:37:27 AM »

Gabriel, the thread is entirely my fault. I encouraged it all by my insatiable curiosity... EmbarrassedMods, if this thread is not acceptable, then please do lock it, or take whatever measures are required. However, any blame please place only on my shoulders.

 No, no dear sister; you are not to blame.  And I'm not really as mad as my words seem to make me.  It's just that the question was answered long ago and now this thread is becoming extremely dangerous, IMO.  Please don't blame yourself though.  Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2009, 04:47:44 AM »

Oh come on, folks! Do you really take those lyrics seriously? I'm starting to understand why metal band have started to use provoking lyrics in the first place while reading this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL3mYKr5tZ4

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« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2009, 04:56:44 AM »

I'm quite surprised that many people on this forum (I'm assuming they are christians) seem to like death metal music. I was always taught that this was not suitable music for the christian, and seeing some of the images recently posted in another thread, I can appreciate why it was forbidden in my former faith. So, I would like to ask those of you who seem to like and listen to this genre why you enjoy this and why you feel it is acceptable for a christian to listen to something with such horrific and psychologically traumatizing imagery. Thanks.

I'm with you Rosehip. I too am surprised by the prevalence of Orthodox Christians on this forum that seem to like this genre of music. I try not to be a fundamentalist about artistic tastes, but certain artistic expressions are purely demonic and should be avoided and condemned IMHO. I'm not going to crusade against "death metal," but I will point out that it's not redemptive and is full of negative energy, negative emotion, and negative thoughts. In this glorious world with so much beauty and so many uplifting forms of music and song, I do have to wonder why a professed Christian would be drawn towards such darkness. That may sound judgmental, but it really does cause me to wonder.

Good question Rosehip!

Selam


 
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« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2009, 04:58:13 AM »

Horde?  I think I still have the Nuclear Blast pressing of that!

If we're talking Christian black metal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kJqTrfkx5E
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« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2009, 05:02:36 AM »

If we're talking Christian black metal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kJqTrfkx5E

But Antestor isn't corny enough for this thread. Tongue
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« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2009, 05:03:08 AM »

I adore metal and have a massive death, black and thrash metal collection. Among the many anti-Christian albums in my collection I have one called 'Dechristianize' by a band called Vital Remains which has songs with titles such as 'At War With God,' 'Hammer Down The Nails,' and 'Saviour To None, Failure To All.' My favourite song by the Swedish thrash/death metal band At The Gates is 'Raped By The Light Of Christ,' which has some beautiful guitar melodies and is really well composed. I also have a huge collection of nihilistic black metal such as Gorgoroth, who have songs such as 'Twilight Of The Idols.' One of my favourite bands, Amon Amarth, have a song which describes (and glorifies) a party of Vikings pillaging a Christian village, raping the women and burning the church to the ground. It's an awesome song, too. I can practice artistic distancing when I listen to music - I don't have to agree with the message of the lyrics to appreciate it musically, from a compositional and instrumental standpoint. I have to admire the existential consciousness of the lyrics, though.

Friend, this is gonna be something you don't want to hear; It's not meant to be judgmental towards you, but it's gonna be harsh and it's something that needs to be said.  What you've described is not only Satanic, but absolutely detrimental.  If you think you can truly listen to this Satanic music and not have it affect your nous, you not only lack discernment but you lack even a basic understanding of your faith.  As your friend and fellow brother-in-Christ, I urge you to please reconsider.

I agree 100%, and I agree with the spirit of love and compassion in which Gabe's exhortation was made.

Philippians 4:8 is a good verse to consider in this discussion.

Selam
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« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2009, 05:09:55 AM »

If we're talking Christian black metal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kJqTrfkx5E

But Antestor isn't corny enough for this thread. Tongue

I decided to click on this one, just out of curiosity to listen to "Christian black metal."

It sounds like a man being tortured incomprehensibly asking for Christ's salvation.  Why do they have to scream like that?  That is not singing.
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« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2009, 05:12:48 AM »

I wonder what the incidence between heavy metal singers and some type of throat cancer would be.
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« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2009, 05:14:44 AM »

  I caution people to stay away from a lot of this material.  I hope I'm not causing people grief by posting this stuff.

 Makes no sense whatsoever to caution people to stay away from something and then turn around and give access to or display it.  And if I were a mod, I would lock this extremely disturbing and satanic thread;  having videos being posted of extremely anti-Christian blasphemy is unacceptable!!!! 

Agreed!

Please people, feel free to tell us why you like this type of music without promoting it by displaying demonic lyrics and posting links to these disturbing songs and videos.

Rosehip, don't even entertain this stuff!

Selam
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« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2009, 02:15:30 PM »

I'm a guitar player who still likes to put everything on 11 and wail away with my AXE!!

But there's no reason for a person following Christ, who desires to grow in Christ to listen to that garbage. It will effect you. Whether the band believes the drivel they are singing about or not, it will effect you.

Back in the 80's my favorite band was Iron Maiden. I was under the influence of something but I honestly saw this. As they came out and started to play, something like a wave moved from the front of the stage over the floor and then went up the side section seating. As this wave went through the crowd, people went absolutely crazy. Just nuts. I can still see it in my head as I'm typing this.

Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,  
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« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2009, 02:43:01 PM »

I'm a guitar player who still likes to put everything on 11 and wail away with my AXE!!

But there's no reason for a person following Christ, who desires to grow in Christ to listen to that garbage. It will effect you. Whether the band believes the drivel they are singing about or not, it will effect you.

Back in the 80's my favorite band was Iron Maiden. I was under the influence of something but I honestly saw this. As they came out and started to play, something like a wave moved from the front of the stage over the floor and then went up the side section seating. As this wave went through the crowd, people went absolutely crazy. Just nuts. I can still see it in my head as I'm typing this.

Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,  


So, what you're saying here is that your story isn't worth the pixels on my screen, so to speak.  I do not deny that you saw something, but by your own admission you already had demons playing with your mind. 

Maiden is still my favorite band.  The only wave I ever see at their concerts is a wave of euphoria at hearing some great music played well. Smiley
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« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2009, 02:50:58 PM »

I'm a guitar player who still likes to put everything on 11 and wail away with my AXE!!

But there's no reason for a person following Christ, who desires to grow in Christ to listen to that garbage. It will effect you. Whether the band believes the drivel they are singing about or not, it will effect you.

Back in the 80's my favorite band was Iron Maiden. I was under the influence of something but I honestly saw this. As they came out and started to play, something like a wave moved from the front of the stage over the floor and then went up the side section seating. As this wave went through the crowd, people went absolutely crazy. Just nuts. I can still see it in my head as I'm typing this.

Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,  


So, what you're saying here is that your story isn't worth the pixels on my screen, so to speak.  I do not deny that you saw something, but by your own admission you already had demons playing with your mind. 

Maiden is still my favorite band.  The only wave I ever see at their concerts is a wave of euphoria at hearing some great music played well. Smiley

I'm only conveying what I saw. You can disregard if you like.

I no longer own any of their stuff but have watched a few YouTube clips of concert footage. They are still going strong!
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« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2009, 02:56:53 PM »

Indeed, they are.  What "dinosaur rock band" plays their new album in its entirety in concert nowadays?  All w/o any radio airplay whatsoever? 

No one.

Except the mighty Maiden, that is!

Up the Irons! Wink
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« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2009, 03:24:23 PM »

Quote
Rosehip, don't even entertain this stuff!

I think I can safely say it isn't even a temptation. I find the stuff sinister, lacking in beauty and refinement, and the ability to create in a person the desire for holiness-not to speak of boring. I think it's pretty much a no-brainer.
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« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2009, 03:39:27 PM »

Everybody needs to calm down!  Metal can be dangerous, but there is also such a thing as assigning something power.  The more horrified you act, the more powerful it becomes.

Anyway, there's nothing inherently wrong with the style.  Plenty of bands aren't Satanic.  Many just deal with dark themes, which obviously the Bible is comfortable with, if that's your concern.

So everybody can stop ragging on the style.  If you don't like some lyrical themes then fine, but the genre itself is just an acquired taste.  I hate reggae but I'm not going to throw a fit about it.  I was posting things to give examples, but I'll stop.  Just stop bringing up pop bands in a death metal thread!
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« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2009, 09:34:46 PM »


Maiden is still my favorite band.  The only wave I ever see at their concerts is a wave of euphoria at hearing some great music played well. Smiley

Mine, too. Up the irons!
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« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2009, 01:40:13 AM »

The reason why I enjoy heavy metal so much, particularly styles such as death metal and black metal, is because not only do I find it uplifting, empowering and enjoyable on an entertainment level, but I also find it incredibly beautiful in many forms. The music posted and discussed here so far has not been beautiful, mainly because I was having some fun scaring the other members of this board - as was Alveus, I'm sure. :p

The melodies in many death metal and black metal songs are sublime. The riffs and the rhythm of the drums are powerful and energetic, but the actual melodies are often beautiful as well. Sometimes such beauty is only subtle, such as a single guitar melody hidden beneath the louder riffs of the rhythm guitar, which you notice amongst the mix and are instantly smacked in the face with reverence and awe of such beauty. In other cases choirs and symphonic elements provide that subtle beauty, like in Virgin Black's recent albums which are all accompanied by the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra. Emperor's classic black metal album, 'In The Nightside Eclipse' makes use of beautiful choirs which sing incredible melodies that soar above the cacophony of drums and guitar and the brutal vocals. The juxtaposition of such powerful, brutal force and such clear, soft beauty is simply breathtaking. This beauty is found in death/black metal without the use of symphonic arrangements, too. Insomnium, At The Gates and Dark Tranquility, for example, incorporate beautiful guitar melodies into their music, which form complex arrangements which are not only sublime to listen to but are also intellectually stimulating. Unlike pop music which usually consists of the same melody repeated (except for the chorus, and 'bridge'), metal songs consist of many different melodies interwoven, changing, shifting, taking the listener on a journey. In black metal these melodies are usually very simple and repetitive, but that is because black metal seeks to create an atmosphere, whereas death metal (which features complex and intricate melodies) seeks to create stimulating music which is also powerful and uplifting.

The distorted guitar sound is an extremely powerful sound. It is brutal, but in its brutality there is honesty - it is hard to explain, but in many ways it is like the poetry of W.H Auden, creating sublime beauty from something which is meant to be ugly, telling the truth. Distorted guitar noise usually is not pretty, but when done correctly it is fantastic. There is so much intensity and energy in it that it is hard to sit still while listening to a truly epic metal guitar riff.  It fills you with that feeling. The powerful throb of the drums has the same effect.

Art is meant to paint a truthful picture of reality and metal music does this so well. It reflects aspects of the human condition which are usually neglected by pop or rock music. The anti-Christian, 'Satanic' death/black metal bands are overrepresented. Metal lyrics are usually about the darker side of the human condition. The messages are often very existentialist and deal with themes of loss, bereavement, love, moratlity, the unknown, inevitability, internal conflict and torment, betrayal, sorrow, madness, hidden demons, etc. A lot of theselyrics are very reflective on the nature of humanity and the human condition as a whole, expressing sorrow, doubt or fear for the human race and the bleak state of the world. Black metal has similar themes, but themes dealing with nature - and great reverence of the natural world, of mountains, forests, the cosmos, the wilderness - are very common in black metal as well. Death/black metal lyrics are usually quite deep and profound, using beautiful creative language, metaphors and imagery. I'll post some examples below:

Insomnium's Mortal Share:
Quote
For the part of man
Is to take the sombre path
Stumble in the dark
Stray amidst the dust and ash

Like forgotten ghosts
Drifting in the driving wind
Dashing towards the void
Whirling blindly through the night

Like water flung from the highest cliff
We fall,
lunge,
swirl,
dissolve,
and fade away
Down into the unknown

Agalloch - I Am The Wooden Doors
Quote
When the heart is a grave filled with blood
And the soul is a cold and haunted shall of lost hope
When the voice of pride has been silenced
And dignity's fires are but cinders
. . .their grandeur shall remain untainted

It is this grandeur that protects the spirit within
From the plight of this broken world, from the wounds in her song
I wish to die with my will and spirit intact
The will that inspired me to write these words
Seek not the fallen to unlock these wooden doors

Dark Tranquility - The Mundane And The Magic
Quote
Seen through these dreamless eyes
Blind buildings stark to the sky
Silhouettes as dividing walls
Guarding the eternal secret
Where is the flame to haunt you
Who do you answer to
My lies are always wishes
Lies that make me
See beyond the rationale
Accept the fate that nothing is meant to be
Be the least connected
Stay true to the last original

In latter days as time will find you
Memories will never let you get closer
The silent sighs in useless company
Wish for darkness and death again
In the face of ignorance and fear
I cast it right back
Some things were never there to begin with
Objectivity is truth denied

Many of these bands also have lyrics which deal with the ways of the ancients - many Scandinavian bands sing about their heritage: Viking mythology and history. Amon Amarth are as example of such a band already discussed in this thread. There are lots of Eastern European death/black metal bands whose lyrics cover themes of paganism and the ancient stories and spirituality of their forefathers, and these bands often make use of folk instruments in their music, such as bagpipes and violins.
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« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2009, 01:43:45 AM »

If you like Insomnium, I've heard that the new Swallow the Sun CD is really good.
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« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2009, 03:59:13 AM »

Well, risking accusations of being judgmental, etc... here goes:

Things like this bring out the Rasta spirit in me, which compels me to figuratively burn wickedness, foolery, and evil. The Rastaman often simply proclaims "More Fire!" when he sights devilish works. So, in regards to all of this "death metal," "black metal," etc., I gotta say: "MORE FIRE!" I burn the works of the devil without apology. So deal with that however you want to deal with it.

And for those of you who want to cleanse your mind from the evil philosophies and devil music promoted on this thread, please check out these positive and righteous vibrations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfyvSM-6c14&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB8mZMEo_6k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPvMm5wXo5A&feature=youtube_gdata


Yeah man, no devil workers can bring me down!!!


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« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2009, 04:31:38 AM »

Feanor,

It seems to me you show a lot of maturity and discernment with the art of the music itself.  With that I say bravo, and I'm proud of you and I wish more people would think like you.

One thing though.  And this is not just your music, but also hip hop, some pop, some of the recent R&B, modern Reggae, Rock, all great music, and yet some of the music is associated with something provocative.  And yet you have teens going out and buying this stuff, and on top of that it seems to control them and perhaps even allow them to act like some of this stuff is okay in a meme cultural sense.  And what's worse are the artists that exploit that for their own business, and they don't care if they set bad examples, rather than focus on trying to keep the beauty of the music itself with beautiful poetry about human nature.

Do you see what I'm saying?  I think a lot of people might be worried about them.  What do you think about that?  I'm sure this exploitation also occur in Black Metal and Death Metal, No?

God bless.
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« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2009, 07:48:46 AM »

Death metal is not the work of the devil, Gebre. This is a particularly beautiful death metal song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBXBnpiMuqA

It has some great lyrics:

Quote
The night has a thousand eyes,
And the day but one;
Yet the light of the bright world dies
With the dying sun

The mind has a thousand eyes,
And the heart but one:
Yet the light of a whole life dies
When love is done

Quote
One thing though.  And this is not just your music, but also hip hop, some pop, some of the recent R&B, modern Reggae, Rock, all great music, and yet some of the music is associated with something provocative.  And yet you have teens going out and buying this stuff, and on top of that it seems to control them and perhaps even allow them to act like some of this stuff is okay in a meme cultural sense.  And what's worse are the artists that exploit that for their own business, and they don't care if they set bad examples, rather than focus on trying to keep the beauty of the music itself with beautiful poetry about human nature.

Do you see what I'm saying?  I think a lot of people might be worried about them.  What do you think about that?  I'm sure this exploitation also occur in Black Metal and Death Metal, No?

God bless.

I think the primary reason for the massive popularity of deviant, provocative and rebellious material in modern music is the fact that the youth of today's society strongly feel the need to rebel. Their social values are very different from those of the older, more conservative generations, and so they challenge the status quo.

Nonetheless I think that stuff like promoting gang violence and drug use in hip hop falls outside this entirely, and is just capitalizing on a very stupid concept which has become 'cool' amongst the kiddies for some reason. I can't for the life of me understand the appeal of 'gangsta' culture, but it seems to succeed commercially amongst today's youth. I don't understand that at all.

It certainly happens in metal as well... many of the artists who promote 'Satanic' ideals are simply doing it for attention and money.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 07:50:28 AM by Feanor » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2009, 09:44:08 AM »

Metallica?  Megadeth?  I thought this conversation was about death metal!  Posers!  Tongue

Doh! I totally forgot when I last posted that this thread was about death metal. I was posting as though it was just about metal generally.  angel
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« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2009, 10:34:33 AM »

I'm actually more of a Prog Metal guy myself.

I'm a big Dream Theater fan. Their 'Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory' CD is probably the most amazing prog-metal achievement EVER! Sadly their later stuff has been so so.

I'm also like Killswitch Engage. Not sure where they get classified.
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« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2009, 12:06:11 PM »

I agree about DT - their have dropped significantly in quality over the last few years. Stuff like Images and Words, Metr. Part II, Six Degrees, Train of Thought... those are all great albums. DT were my favourite band for a long time, but that was years ago.
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« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2009, 02:00:15 PM »


Maiden is still my favorite band.  The only wave I ever see at their concerts is a wave of euphoria at hearing some great music played well. Smiley

Mine, too. Up the irons!
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« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2009, 02:12:44 PM »

The reason why I enjoy heavy metal so much, particularly styles such as death metal and black metal, is because not only do I find it uplifting, empowering and enjoyable on an entertainment level, but I also find it incredibly beautiful in many forms.
....

Agalloch - I Am The Wooden Doors
Quote
When the heart is a grave filled with blood
And the soul is a cold and haunted shall of lost hope
When the voice of pride has been silenced
And dignity's fires are but cinders
. . .their grandeur shall remain untainted

It is this grandeur that protects the spirit within
From the plight of this broken world, from the wounds in her song
I wish to die with my will and spirit intact
The will that inspired me to write these words
Seek not the fallen to unlock these wooden doors
....

Many of these bands also have lyrics which deal with the ways of the ancients - many Scandinavian bands sing about their heritage: Viking mythology and history. Amon Amarth are as example of such a band already discussed in this thread. There are lots of Eastern European death/black metal bands whose lyrics cover themes of paganism and the ancient stories and spirituality of their forefathers, and these bands often make use of folk instruments in their music, such as bagpipes and violins.

Ah, I think I understand all this death metal now. It's a recognition of what the Buddhists call 'dukkha', what the Christians call 'the fallenness of the cosmos', often in the context of ancient Germanic-Slavic culture; the heroic life is constant struggle in the face of imminent defeat -- one's victory is not of this world. Perhaps one might recognize similar themes in the novels of Cormac McCarthy, like "No Country for Old Men".
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« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2009, 09:27:02 PM »

Taranchula is by far the best band death metal has ever spawned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Ha1vaG1EA

And here's something by the chaps who made them up (it looks like they're crosswiring genres: Taranchula is more a thrash metal act with a facade of death and doom, and a vocalist who sounds like he's lampooning James Hetfield):

http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail141.html
http://www.hrwiki.org/wiki/death_metal

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« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2009, 09:32:32 PM »

With me, Bay-area thrash, British New Wave, and classic metal (prog and neo-classical had their place as well) always took precedence over genres like death metal.  But what little interest I had in it would have leaned more towards the more sophisticated and technical sub-branches like technical and Gothenburg melodic death.  Unfortunately, death metal shall always be plagued with this absurd fetish for 'bleaaaaergh' cookie-monster vocals.  Technicality and playing proficiency (and the voice is no less an instrument) make for great music, and this genre would have been much better off remaining a purely instrumental one.

Here's my contribution--from early Amorphis, also Finnish, and with a habit of using the Kalevala for lyrical material:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VCd84i6TiU

Say, if everyone is 'psyched' over this topic, should I not be surprised that few contributed to this thread dealing with Tim Schafer's tribute to metal music (yet a lousy one to good gameplay mechanics):

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21679.0.html



« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 09:46:46 PM by SamB » Logged
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« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2009, 11:13:59 PM »

Let's all chill and have a bana nah nah nah!
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« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2009, 11:28:27 PM »

 Yall need to get saucy with Jelly Roll Morton and maybe then a glass of Suav Blanc with la' mome Piaf.
Who needs Death Metal when you can hear the music of Bourbon Street Brothels?? Shocked Wink
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« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2009, 11:53:51 PM »


Maiden is still my favorite band.  The only wave I ever see at their concerts is a wave of euphoria at hearing some great music played well. Smiley

Mine, too. Up the irons!
Get the Led out. Cheesy

Please.  Best metal band of all TIME was Wyld Stallyns!

Most excellent.
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« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2009, 01:35:51 AM »

Please the best metal of all time is...

...platinum, because that's just too shiny and more expensive than gold...

Ya...wassup...I mean rock on!
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« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2009, 02:48:09 PM »


Maiden is still my favorite band.  The only wave I ever see at their concerts is a wave of euphoria at hearing some great music played well. Smiley

Mine, too. Up the irons!
Get the Led out. Cheesy

Please.  Best metal band of all TIME was Wyld Stallyns!

Most excellent.

You've been out of touch with the latest slew of mock bands, haven't you?  Limozeen, dude!  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4vxd1FHCOY

Leading the vanguards of cheesy hair metal against the putrid hordes of grunge and indie rock darkspawn, like these guys doing a cover of that last song with their dirty guitars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4vxd1FHCOY

And of course, here's the field marshall himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBtjSHm3ZH0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvvjiE4AdUI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCd7_pp0xnY

errr....  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7jpz_55EdM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bead5YUZzw

Finally, an article for the veterans and to the heart by someone who should be leading armies:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/britton2.html

Should add this, a Dio interview in the same vein as that article.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFSBWFZMyS4
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 03:06:21 PM by SamB » Logged
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« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2009, 03:01:04 PM »


Maiden is still my favorite band.  The only wave I ever see at their concerts is a wave of euphoria at hearing some great music played well. Smiley

Mine, too. Up the irons!
Get the Led out. Cheesy

Done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Imx1U6Wsrs

And here's something from the hard rock days by two of the godfathers Dio and Blackmore.  Had something in mind from the first's Vivian Campbell years, but Youtube has been playing copyright police with the song I had in mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SedQcg-65a8

In line with what Dio has said about Europe in that interview, I can attest for a fact that in one of the isolated mountain villages in Bulgaria, you will find at least one of the villagers there in his 50's who cannot speak a word of English but yet will swear by Rainbow.

Знаш Рембо?  Хубаво!  Хубаво!  Аз много обичам Рембо!
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« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2009, 03:33:04 PM »

You've been out of touch with the latest slew of mock bands, haven't you?  Limozeen, dude!  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4vxd1FHCOY

Wrong link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsArcMMqbhw
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« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2009, 04:15:54 PM »

Yeah. Maybe these guys should leave the parodies to Weird Al Yankovic...
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« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2009, 04:28:41 PM »

Yeah. Maybe these guys should leave the parodies to Weird Al Yankovic...

Sure.

http://sendables.jibjab.com/view/K9jgdZVy2H0Lx5uH
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« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2009, 08:54:07 PM »

In anticipation of Christmas, something of a chortle with this.  Ronnie James Dio and Tony Iommi give you God rest you merry gentlemen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONJFL4ABSmo
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« Reply #79 on: December 18, 2009, 04:36:21 PM »

That's one of my favorite Christmas songs. Only Ronnie James Dio could make it better.

As an aside, Feanor, you have excellent taste in music. But I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Opeth so far. They're pretty much the top for 'beautiful death metal'.
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« Reply #80 on: December 18, 2009, 05:09:56 PM »

I am very used to listen to various genres, from rock'n'roll (Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee lewis...), to rock (Queen, Beatles, Arrows, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Black Sabbath), and power metal (Sonata Arctica, Nightwish). One can derive a teaching from any song. You don't have to support the CONTENTS of these songs, but sometimes they can be useful in a way or another.
When I first listened to 666-The Number of the Beast (being Italian, I'm not so used to hearing it in my country), I began thinking it to be good. When in the end of the song the singer happens to fall under the power of the Devil, I was initially disgusted. Finally, that song made me think three things:
1) The Devil can be incredibly convincing
2) Since we're all weak, I must trust God and ask Him to help me keep far from the Devil
3) That's how Satan works and how I can recognize his mindset to defeat it in my life.
Knowing evil doesn't mean embracing it. When an army prepares to battle, the generals study their enemies in depth. They want to know how the others think and work, because this way you can prepare for their attacks and use their weaknesses against them. I think that a Christian CAN listen to these songs precisely to understand how Satan's ways work, and keep ready for the "good battle".
A similar case I experienced was with Iron Man by Black Sabbath. The character is definitely a hero which is driven mad by the nonsense of the world he was trying to save. On one side, Iron Man teaches how man can be pure ingratitude and emargination; on the other side, I learned how the subtle burden from good to evil can be easily passed through, so that we must strengthen our sense of justice despite the world might ignore it, refuse it, or even judge it as insane.
Every single rock and metal song can somehow teach us something. Taking the position of an intrinsically evil character can make us reason over the depths of evil. That's maybe why novels work well when the evil character is well fashioned by the author. An example may be Lord Vold... pardon, You-Know-Who in the Harry Potter series: He is so evil (and in a certain sense, he is so recognizable as an evil character) that understanding his plans somehow justifies all reactions from the main characters.

We live in a world where evil penetrates every level of society, yet we can't see it as a whole: it's untouchable and invisible. If we can see the world from the Evil's side, we can realize why and how he penetrates the world and how to defeat him.

I hope this might give a new perspective to the thread.

In Christ
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« Reply #81 on: December 27, 2009, 01:38:55 PM »

I've been thinking about this issue for... well... years. But I've been thinking more and more about it over the last month or so. And I think I've changed my mind about listening to this kind of music. After going over what the Bible and Tradition say about music, I think it best to try and modify my listening habits.
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« Reply #82 on: December 27, 2009, 04:35:40 PM »

I've been thinking about this issue for... well... years. But I've been thinking more and more about it over the last month or so. And I think I've changed my mind about listening to this kind of music. After going over what the Bible and Tradition say about music, I think it best to try and modify my listening habits.

Glory to God. We all need to examine our lives and our habits, and be willing to jettison certain things that have the potential to affect us in negative ways. I would be interested to know if your mood, thoughts, and actions are noticably different after having abstained from this type of music for some time. Please keep us informed.

"Lord have mercy."

Selam
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« Reply #83 on: December 27, 2009, 05:40:15 PM »

Let me get this out of the way: I HATE death metal, period, weather it's christian or not! Why do kids like it? same reason I loved the music I did (it was the devils music, I heard more than once from my parents and the like-Rod Stewart, Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper, banned from listening to it-at least when my parents were around- when they weren't- I listened and played it loud till they would walk in the house, LOL the memories of growing up   Grin), but I also listened to motown, country, blues and etc growing up. Now that I have that out of the way, I do attend death metals concerts or shows, (hating it all the while) at the rate of about 2 a month, my youngest is in a death metal band, -he's 22. Some of the lyrics I have read(can't understand them when they are playing thankfully), are horrible. I let them know what I think of their lyrics, privately and when the subject comes up. I do more talking to God when I attend than actually listening to what's being played, otherwise I couldn't do it!!! I recently recieved a very nice note from one of the band members thanking me for showing up, how much they appreciate it-while knowing how I feel about their style and lyrics. He slso stated that my son has mentioned on occasion that he loves it when I show up, even though he knows I usually am talking to God the whole time!  LOL  The band, and their devotees have now started calling me "da mama". Will I let them practice at my house?  NO WAY- as some of their lyrics are offensive to me, and I feel are anti-religous, anti God so to speak, so not in my house!  The thing that amazes me is that they did book their first gig, after that, they haven't had to do any of their own promotions, the venues they play have been contacting them, promoters are contacting them- I don't understand that, LOL, (I come from a long line of musicians, some who had real jobs to support their music so they wouldn't be "starving musicians" at times).
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« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2010, 12:52:39 PM »

There was a time where I listened to pretty much nothing but black metal, death metal, and doom metal. While I still listen to a handful of these bands, I have nothing to do with the ones with Satanic or generally anti-Christian themes. One of my favorite bands is Summoning which, despite the occult-sounding name, is purely based on themes from Tolkien's books. But I avoid bands like Emperor, Darkthrone, Deicide, Mercyful Fate, or Gorgoroth. I try to avoid referencing these bands in even a joking/ ironic way, as some people do. I think it's very naive to think that, simply because we don't intellectually assent to its lyrical content, that Satanic music does not affect us negatively.
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« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2010, 02:34:46 PM »

I'm really into folk and power metal: Within Temptation, Nightwish, Equilibrium, Elvenking, Eluvietie, Sonata Arctica...a bit of Amon Amarth. Also black metal (Rammstein....I shall see them live one day). Anyone into Ska? Streetlight Manifesto was the first band that exposed me to it and its pretty awsome.

Oh and two words: Avenged Sevenfold.

Metal isn't for everyone, but to quote an earlier poster: "Why should the devil have all the good music"?
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« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2010, 02:40:09 PM »

  I caution people to stay away from a lot of this material.  I hope I'm not causing people grief by posting this stuff.

 Makes no sense whatsoever to caution people to stay away from something and then turn around and give access to or display it.  And if I were a mod, I would lock this extremely disturbing and satanic thread;  having videos being posted of extremely anti-Christian blasphemy is unacceptable!!!! 

Agreed!

Please people, feel free to tell us why you like this type of music without promoting it by displaying demonic lyrics and posting links to these disturbing songs and videos.

Rosehip, don't even entertain this stuff!

Selam

Had you been living in the 18th century this would be directed toward Mozart and Beethoven, with their foul late enlightenment romanticist and sometimes nationalistic music.
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« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2010, 02:48:02 PM »

I'm quite surprised that many people on this forum (I'm assuming they are christians) seem to like death metal music. I was always taught that this was not suitable music for the christian, and seeing some of the images recently posted in another thread, I can appreciate why it was forbidden in my former faith. So, I would like to ask those of you who seem to like and listen to this genre why you enjoy this and why you feel it is acceptable for a christian to listen to something with such horrific and psychologically traumatizing imagery. Thanks.

I'm with you Rosehip. I too am surprised by the prevalence of Orthodox Christians on this forum that seem to like this genre of music. I try not to be a fundamentalist about artistic tastes, but certain artistic expressions are purely demonic and should be avoided and condemned IMHO. I'm not going to crusade against "death metal," but I will point out that it's not redemptive and is full of negative energy, negative emotion, and negative thoughts. In this glorious world with so much beauty and so many uplifting forms of music and song, I do have to wonder why a professed Christian would be drawn towards such darkness. That may sound judgmental, but it really does cause me to wonder.

Good question Rosehip!

Selam


 

Its true what you say and there are many many songs of this genre singing about more beautiful things life (Wind beneath my wings by Sonata Arctica, sings about friendship and supporting each other through hard times). But I would also point out that the darker side of the human spirit deserves musical expression as well, and it will of course be much harder, harsher, and darker.
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« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2010, 02:56:05 PM »

Also black metal (Rammstein....I shall see them live one day).

Not to be snotty, but Rammstein isn't black metal... not even close.
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« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2010, 03:00:27 PM »

  I caution people to stay away from a lot of this material.  I hope I'm not causing people grief by posting this stuff.

 Makes no sense whatsoever to caution people to stay away from something and then turn around and give access to or display it.  And if I were a mod, I would lock this extremely disturbing and satanic thread;  having videos being posted of extremely anti-Christian blasphemy is unacceptable!!!! 

Agreed!

Please people, feel free to tell us why you like this type of music without promoting it by displaying demonic lyrics and posting links to these disturbing songs and videos.

Rosehip, don't even entertain this stuff!

Selam

Had you been living in the 18th century this would be directed toward Mozart and Beethoven, with their foul late enlightenment romanticist and sometimes nationalistic music.

If you can find some overtly Satanic/ anti-Christian material in either of these composers, then your comparison would be valid.
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« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2010, 03:30:02 PM »

But I would also point out that the darker side of the human spirit deserves musical expression as well, and it will of course be much harder, harsher, and darker.

I cannot agree with this notion that, just because we feel it, it ought to be expressed. This is modern psychotherapy or pop psychology speaking. It is a perfect way to let demons take control of our lives. Orthodox spirituality tells us to combat the passions, not give them expression. Modern man thinks he can keep his passions under control by indulging them along specific channels... it's delusion. If you feel a twinge of hatred or anger or any other negative emotion, chant psalms... don't make it into a song.
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« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2010, 03:58:05 PM »

There are some very intersting perspectives in this discussion.  During my teenage years, I listened to quite a bit of death/black metal.  I slowly phased that out of my collection but replaced it with music from bands like White/Rob Zombie, Mudvayne, and Korn.  Since beginning my journey to Orthodoxy and working to practice a life of asceticism, my view of this music has been slowly changing.  I began to feel uneasy while listening to Rob Zombie and similar artists.  I can actually sense some sort of darkness that builds inside of me.  My mind seems to like the dark feeling but it is utterly incompatible with my nous.  Therefore, such music is now to be avoided.  I should probably clarify that the dark feeling doesn't come with a desire to do evil but it does seperate my nous from the presence of the Lord.

Because of my seemingly natural propensity to sin, I have found it important to stay as connected to God as possible.  I still fail miserably but not nearly as much as I used to.  As this relates to the music; I have to ask myself a few questions.  (1) Does the music I am listening to have an emotional or spiritual impact on me?  (2) Is the impact positive or negative?  (3) Does the impact separate me from the Lord?  I can't speak for everyone but I can definitively say that the music that I was listening to (1) did have an emotional impact on me (2) it seemed to be negative and (3) it DID separate me from the Lord.  My mind is always looking for ways to rationalize this sentiment because of my love for the music but the truth isn't always to the liking of the mind. 

I think that it's important to note that I am a (wannabe!) guitarist and have always listened to the music before the lyrics.  Even so, they lyrics had found their way into my brain and were causing an impact.  For this reason, I have been listening to the music of Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, and Buckethead.  I have found Buckethead to be on the jagged edge of what I find to be acceptable but I just skip the music that "separates me from the Lord".  Since I am merely a catechumen and theosis is a lifelong journey, I won't rule out the possiblity that I will one day find my current musical taste to be detrimental to my spiritual connection with God.  It makes sense to me that the closer that someone gets to God, the less they desire or even care for the things of the world.

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2010, 04:37:28 PM »

Welcome to the forum!
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« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2010, 04:41:28 PM »

I'm really into folk and power metal: Within Temptation, Nightwish, Equilibrium, Elvenking, Eluvietie, Sonata Arctica...a bit of Amon Amarth.

Great stuff!  Well, at least the folk material.  A Russian folk band called Arkona is pretty good, and there is an Orthodox band from Ukraine called Holy Blood: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOJtsF6-2S0
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« Reply #94 on: January 19, 2010, 07:18:41 AM »

  I caution people to stay away from a lot of this material.  I hope I'm not causing people grief by posting this stuff.

 Makes no sense whatsoever to caution people to stay away from something and then turn around and give access to or display it.  And if I were a mod, I would lock this extremely disturbing and satanic thread;  having videos being posted of extremely anti-Christian blasphemy is unacceptable!!!! 

Agreed!

Please people, feel free to tell us why you like this type of music without promoting it by displaying demonic lyrics and posting links to these disturbing songs and videos.

Rosehip, don't even entertain this stuff!

Selam

Had you been living in the 18th century this would be directed toward Mozart and Beethoven, with their foul late enlightenment romanticist and sometimes nationalistic music.

If you can find some overtly Satanic/ anti-Christian material in either of these composers, then your comparison would be valid.

We don't think of them as satanic today. They didn't then either. But a lot of the older, more traditional crowd worried that the new styles could encourage the losses of virtue. The same happened with ragtime, with the blues, and with every time music has changed. My comparison isn't with anti-christian or satanic music, but rather with the intense criticism of new music by those who have grown up with very different stuff.

And what would you call Rammstein?
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« Reply #95 on: January 19, 2010, 09:21:01 AM »

I'm quite surprised that many people on this forum (I'm assuming they are christians) seem to like death metal music. I was always taught that this was not suitable music for the christian, and seeing some of the images recently posted in another thread, I can appreciate why it was forbidden in my former faith. So, I would like to ask those of you who seem to like and listen to this genre why you enjoy this and why you feel it is acceptable for a christian to listen to something with such horrific and psychologically traumatizing imagery. Thanks.

I use to listen to all sorts of metal music and especially punk.  Many songs were actually angry at society and how twistedness of society in many ways.   I found groups that I really enjoy now such a Benjamine Gate (from south africa), POD, Eastwest, Evenesance, etc. all which are alternative music/metal bands that I by in Christian books stores.  Of course many of their songs are from an protestant view of reality.

I was the weird kid on the block who listened to the full spectrum of musical styles (except Country music for the most part).
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« Reply #96 on: January 19, 2010, 12:25:02 PM »

I cannot agree with this notion that, just because we feel it, it ought to be expressed. This is modern psychotherapy or pop psychology speaking. It is a perfect way to let demons take control of our lives. Orthodox spirituality tells us to combat the passions, not give them expression. Modern man thinks he can keep his passions under control by indulging them along specific channels... it's delusion. If you feel a twinge of hatred or anger or any other negative emotion, chant psalms... don't make it into a song.
"[Our] aim is not to eliminate the passions but to redirect their energy. Uncontrolled rage must be turned to righteous indignation, spiteful jealousy into zeal for the truth, sexual lust into an eros that is pure in its fervor. The passions, then, are to be purified, not killed; to be educated, not eradicated; to be used positively, not negatively. To ourselves and to others we say not 'Suppress,' but 'Transfigure.'" -Kallistos Ware, TOW

"According to Maximos, not all passion is bad. Indeed, he says, 'There is need for the blessed passion of holy love.' The Orthodox tradition does not shy away from the use of eros -the Greek name for sexual love -to speak of God's love for us and our love of God. We see this understanding of erotic or passionate love, for example, in the Hebrew Bible's Song of Songs." -Allyne Smith, in Palmer, Sherrard, and Ware, eds., Philokalia: Selections Annotated and Explained

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« Reply #97 on: January 19, 2010, 01:38:42 PM »

Quote
I was the weird kid on the block who listened to the full spectrum of musical styles (except Country music for the most part).

I can relate to this because I loved folk, international and middle-eastern music, whilst all my peers lived on Steve Green, Michael Card, Michael W. Smith, Petra, etc. etc. etc. Only American CCM and Christian rock was viewed as "acceptable" whilst I found this all very boring, vapid, and lacking in character. I was ever the non-conformist too. But never, ever listened to Death Metal because it never appealed to my tastes.
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« Reply #98 on: January 19, 2010, 07:32:10 PM »

I cannot agree with this notion that, just because we feel it, it ought to be expressed. This is modern psychotherapy or pop psychology speaking. It is a perfect way to let demons take control of our lives. Orthodox spirituality tells us to combat the passions, not give them expression. Modern man thinks he can keep his passions under control by indulging them along specific channels... it's delusion. If you feel a twinge of hatred or anger or any other negative emotion, chant psalms... don't make it into a song.
"[Our] aim is not to eliminate the passions but to redirect their energy. Uncontrolled rage must be turned to righteous indignation, spiteful jealousy into zeal for the truth, sexual lust into an eros that is pure in its fervor. The passions, then, are to be purified, not killed; to be educated, not eradicated; to be used positively, not negatively. To ourselves and to others we say not 'Suppress,' but 'Transfigure.'" -Kallistos Ware, TOW

"According to Maximos, not all passion is bad. Indeed, he says, 'There is need for the blessed passion of holy love.' The Orthodox tradition does not shy away from the use of eros -the Greek name for sexual love -to speak of God's love for us and our love of God. We see this understanding of erotic or passionate love, for example, in the Hebrew Bible's Song of Songs." -Allyne Smith, in Palmer, Sherrard, and Ware, eds., Philokalia: Selections Annotated and Explained


I'm wondering what point you're trying to make here, given the context. That it's okay to indulge our anger and hatred? I don't think even the above cited writers would agree with this.

These quotes demonstrate the inroads that modernism and new age spirituality have made among some Orthodox writers. In the Song of Songs, sexual love is used as an allegory for divine eros, but that doesn't mean we may achieve the latter by indulging the former. Sometimes the spiritual struggle is compared to warfare or even slaughter (e.g., "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones") but that doesn't make these literal activities laudable.

"Having become an exile for the Lord's sake, we should have no ties at all lest we seem to be roving in order to gratify our passions... Do not touch the world any more; because the passions desire nothing better than to return." - St John of the Ladder, The Ladder of Divine Ascent

"Let us abandon the evil one and his herds. Let us keep away from pigs and the husks they eat, that is to say, the disgusting passions and their devotees. Let us withdraw from evil pastures, namely, habitual sins. Let us flee from the land of the passions, which means unbelief , insatiate desire and intemperance, where there is a terrible famine of goods things and where there are passions worse than any famine." - St. Gregory Palamas, Homily on the Parable of the Prodigal

"The passions represent the lowest level to which human nature can fall. Both their Greek name, pathi, as well as the Latin, passiones, show that man is brought by them to a state of passivity, of slavery. In fact, they overcome the will, so that the man of the passions is no longer a man of will; we say that he is a man ruled, enslaved, carried along by the passions." - Fr. Dumitru Staniloae, Orthodox Spirituality
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« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2010, 04:08:28 PM »

"[Our] aim is not to eliminate the passions but to redirect their energy. Uncontrolled rage must be turned to righteous indignation, spiteful jealousy into zeal for the truth, sexual lust into an eros that is pure in its fervor. The passions, then, are to be purified, not killed; to be educated, not eradicated; to be used positively, not negatively. To ourselves and to others we say not 'Suppress,' but 'Transfigure.'" -Kallistos Ware, TOW

"According to Maximos, not all passion is bad. Indeed, he says, 'There is need for the blessed passion of holy love.' The Orthodox tradition does not shy away from the use of eros -the Greek name for sexual love -to speak of God's love for us and our love of God. We see this understanding of erotic or passionate love, for example, in the Hebrew Bible's Song of Songs." -Allyne Smith, in Palmer, Sherrard, and Ware, eds., Philokalia: Selections Annotated and Explained
These quotes demonstrate the inroads that modernism and new age spirituality have made among some Orthodox writers.
Interesting. You are claiming that Metropolitan Kallistos Ware is the victim of modernism and New Age spirituality and that this is demonstrated by the quote from his book The Orthodox Way? It is quite a blessing to this forum that your spiritual understanding of the passions is superior to that of Metropolitan Ware. Could you demonstrate this line by line? Surely you don't regard the cited quotation from Maximos the Confessor an example of modernism?

Actually the fuller quotation from Metropolitan Ware affirms a polarity between a more positive and a more negative standpoint is traceable within the Fathers themselves, long before the advent of modernism:

"An essential aspect of guarding the heart is warfare against the passions. By 'passion' here is meant not just sexual lust, but any disordered appetite of longing that violently takes possession of the soul: anger, jealousy, gluttony, avarice, lust for power, pride, and the rest. Many of the Fathers treat the passions as something intrinsically evil, that is to say, as inward diseases alien to man's true nature. Some of them, however, adopt a more positive standpoint, regarding the passions as dynamic impulses originally placed in man by God, and so fundamentally good although at present distorted by sin. On this second and more subtle view, our aim is not to eliminate the passions, but redirect their energy. Uncontrolled rage must be turned into righteous indignation, spiteful jealousy into zeal for the truth,n sexual lust into an eros that is pure in its fervor. The passions, then, are to be purified, not killed; to be educated, not eradicated; to be used positively, not negatively. To ourselves and to others we say not 'Suppress,' but 'Transfigure.' ...The 'dispassioned' person, so far from being apathetic, is the one whose heart burns with love for God, for other humans, for every living creature, for all that God has made. As St. Isaac the Syrian writes: 'When a man with such a heart as this thinks of his creatures and looks at them, his eyes are filled with tears because of the overwhelming compassion that presses upon his heart. The heart of such a man grows tender, and he cannot endure to hear of or look upon any injury, even the smallest suffering, inflicted upon anything in creation. Therefore he never ceases to pray with tears even for dumb animals, for the enemies of the truth, and for all who do harm to it, asking that they may be guarded and receive God's mercy. And for the reptiles also he prays with great compassion which rises up endlessly in his heart, after the example of God'" (Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way, pp. 116-117).

That the battle against the passions biblically, at least it seems to me, is more akin to the transfiguration Metropolitan Ware speaks of than a pagan Stoic trajectory of absolute apatheia is suggested by the many scriptures which speak of things like holy hatred, righteous anger, godly tears and the like:

"But this you do have, that you hate [μισεῖς] the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate [ἃ κἂγω μισῶ]. -Rev 2:6
"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other, or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." -Lk 16:13
"'Also let none of you devise evil in your heart against his neighbor, and love not a false oath: for these things I hate' declares the Lord" -Zech 8:17
"Be angry, and yet do not sin..." -Eph 4:26
"Oh that my head were a spring of water, and my eyes a fountain of tears! I would weep day and night for the slain of my people!" -Jer 9:1

Although comparison of Metropolitan Ware's witness to a patristic trajectory of transfiguring and educating rather than eliminating/eradicating the passions was described by Iconodule as demonstrating "new age spirituality," insofar as contemporary New Age spirituality is indebted to Buddhism it could just as easily be argued that the more Stoic-like viewpoint of all human passions being in need of absolute eradication (vs. reorientation/transfiguration) per se is indeed also akin to New Age/Buddhist spirituality:

Quote
The concept of apatheia resembles the key Buddhist and Daoist principle of realizing oneness with the Tao (Way) through wu-wei, or "non-doing." Wu-wei refers to spontaneous and effortless behavior that arises from a sense of unity with life, environment, and with others. It is not inertia, laziness, or passivity. Rather, it is the intuitive experience of acting appropriately at any particular moment and relinquishing any effort to control or conquer the environment. Chuang Tzu refers to this type of existence in the world as flowing, or as "purposeless wandering," characterized by "detachment, forgetfulness of results, and abandonment of all hope of profit."

Buddhism teaches that unhappiness and suffering are the result of attachment to, or desire for, the things of this world, and that they can be eliminated through following the Eightfold Path. This understanding is contained in the Four Noble Truths:

   1. Dukkha: All worldly life is unsatisfactory, disjointed, containing suffering.
   2. Samudaya: There is a cause of suffering, which is attachment or desire (tanha) rooted in ignorance.
   3. Nirodha: There is an end of suffering, which is Nirvana.
   4. Magga: There is a path that leads out of suffering, known as the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Buddhist state of enlightenment, in which a person is free of all earthly attachment, can be compared to the Stoic ideal of apatheia.
However in reality any argument which supposes anything with a parallel beyond the faith is dubious per se (ipso facto) is little more than the fallacy of guilt by association. Neither the presence nor the absence of parallels of a concept outside of the Christian faith makes said concept right or wrong per se (cf. biblical parallels to ancient Near Eastern literature, culture, design, etc.). The real issue at hand pertains to what is or is not somewhere within the scope of valid Christian, patristic, or Orthodox perspective; not what might or might not have parallels outside the faith whether ancient or modern.




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« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2010, 05:59:39 PM »

Xariskai- I'm going to ask you again, in the context of this thread, what your point is. This is a thread about death metal; my original post to which you responded was directly concerned with this topic. I am aware that some fathers speak of "transfiguring" passions into virtues. How does death metal accomplish this?

Yes, Bishop Kallistos Ware is a modernist... this isn't a novel viewpoint but something that has been pointed out often by Orthodox writers much more learned than I. His popular books reveal extreme ecumenism and a willingness to jettison certain aspects of church tradition which conflict with modernist thinking (e.g., calling women's ordination an "open question", promoting Darwinism, referring to the contemporary Pope as "Patriarch of Rome", etc.).

It was not the concept of transfiguring the passions that I consider new age, but the deliberate attempt to exalt human sexuality by connecting it to divine Eros in any way beyond metaphor. This kind of teaching has appeared in some Orthodox publications and is not what the Fathers would have approved.
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« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2010, 06:06:34 PM »

  I caution people to stay away from a lot of this material.  I hope I'm not causing people grief by posting this stuff.

 Makes no sense whatsoever to caution people to stay away from something and then turn around and give access to or display it.  And if I were a mod, I would lock this extremely disturbing and satanic thread;  having videos being posted of extremely anti-Christian blasphemy is unacceptable!!!! 

Agreed!

Please people, feel free to tell us why you like this type of music without promoting it by displaying demonic lyrics and posting links to these disturbing songs and videos.

Rosehip, don't even entertain this stuff!

Selam

Had you been living in the 18th century this would be directed toward Mozart and Beethoven, with their foul late enlightenment romanticist and sometimes nationalistic music.

If you can find some overtly Satanic/ anti-Christian material in either of these composers, then your comparison would be valid.

We don't think of them as satanic today. They didn't then either. But a lot of the older, more traditional crowd worried that the new styles could encourage the losses of virtue. The same happened with ragtime, with the blues, and with every time music has changed. My comparison isn't with anti-christian or satanic music, but rather with the intense criticism of new music by those who have grown up with very different stuff.

Then your comparison is a non-sequitur. This thread is about death metal! Many of the important death metal bands (e.g. Slayer, Morbid Angel, Deicide) are overtly Satanic.

Quote
And what would you call Rammstein?

The teeny-bopper version of Laibach.  Smiley

If you want to know what black metal is, Darkthrone, Burzum, Emperor, and early Immortal are considered some defining acts. A more recent example is Wolves in the Throne Room.
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« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2010, 08:27:13 PM »

Slayer isn't really death even if they would later influence bands in that genre.
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« Reply #103 on: January 22, 2010, 10:28:44 PM »

Xariskai- I'm going to ask you again, in the context of this thread, what your point is. This is a thread about death metal; my original post to which you responded was directly concerned with this topic. I am aware that some fathers speak of "transfiguring" passions into virtues.
The point is that your specific critique of Pilgrim (quoted again below) is invalid without proper qualification.

Your post in my estimation was not so much *utterly* wrong as in need of minor caveat and qualification in its highlighting expression of darker passions as a sine qua non of why death metal is deleterious to Christian spirituality. But without proper caveat and qualification I do not regard your critique of Pilgrim's point as entirely correct as stated.

This is not a distinction without a difference insofar as it would lead me to be as sympathetic to the potential valid aspect of Pilgrim's statement to which you responded with unqualified negative counterthesis.
But I would also point out that the darker side of the human spirit deserves musical expression as well, and it will of course be much harder, harsher, and darker.
I cannot agree with this notion that, just because we feel it, it ought to be expressed. This is modern psychotherapy or pop psychology speaking. It is a perfect way to let demons take control of our lives. Orthodox spirituality tells us to combat the passions, not give them expression. Modern man thinks he can keep his passions under control by indulging them along specific channels... it's delusion. If you feel a twinge of hatred or anger or any other negative emotion, chant psalms... don't make it into a song.
If authentic spirituality precludes any and all expression of the darker side of human passion without qualification as you averred *against Pilgrim* we are left to ponder the paradox of literary expression -anthropomorphic or not- of such things as divine wrath and hatred as expressions of God's love in scripture as well as mandates to embody such things as holy hatred (e.g. of the deeds of the Nicolaitans in Revelation) and righteous anger. If it is valid to express such dark passions as divine wrath in sacred literature what happens to your *unqualified* argument that any and all artistic expression of the darker passions is wrong per se because we are divinely mandated to combat and/or redeem/transfigure the passions? Should we then take a razor and remove portions of Holy Scripture as Thomas Jefferson did? Because scripture does precisely what your *unqualified* mandate condemns. Obviously a Christian artist should proceed here with extreme caution and in the spirit of divine wisdom, but I don't think it valid simply in the name of combating the passions to argue one should not proceed along such lines at all as your post argued -whether artistically or existentially- simply in the name of combating the passions. All that having been said, to say there is certainly monumental amount of "transfiguring" to do with death metal would be the *understatement of the century* which, I think, implies there is probably more agreement than disagreement between us at the end of the day. And yes, the passions are a divinely mandated battlefield.

Quote from: Iconodule
Yes, Bishop Kallistos Ware is a modernist... this isn't a novel viewpoint but something that has been pointed out often by Orthodox writers much more learned than I. His popular books reveal extreme ecumenism and a willingness to jettison certain aspects of church tradition which conflict with modernist thinking (e.g., calling women's ordination an "open question", promoting Darwinism, referring to the contemporary Pope as "Patriarch of Rome", etc.).
Your original claim wasn't that Metropolitan Ware as a modernist on other grounds, but that the specific quote I posted revealed his modernism and 'new age spirituality.' I don't think it does and you haven't even began a legitimate attempt to demonstrate that it does as far as I can tell.

Quote from: Iconodule
It was not the concept of transfiguring the passions that I consider new age, but the deliberate attempt to exalt human sexuality by connecting it to divine Eros in any way beyond metaphor. This kind of teaching has appeared in some Orthodox publications and is not what the Fathers would have approved.
That's fine, but (1) your complaint was directed at both quotes rather than just one, and (2) valid metaphorical expression of a passion (which you grant) would open rather than shut the door to artistic expression of a passion like eros (again with requisite caution and in the spirit of divine wisdom) which was the point in question and which you denied all validity of without qualification. Song of Solomon stands as an ancient witness against that claim.
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« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2010, 11:46:09 PM »

Not really a death metal band, but I am a big fan of Israel's Orphaned Land. They blend elements of doom metal, death metal (mostly the occasional growls), and Middle Eastern music, amongst other influences.

Here's a song off their album Mabool, called "Norra El Norra".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf7i6UB5vGw&NR=1&feature=fvwp
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« Reply #105 on: February 20, 2010, 05:19:47 PM »

I don't listen to heavy metal music, but I'd like to toss in my 2 cents anyway, if it's alright  Smiley

I've alwayse thought this music was for the darker type, certainly not for Christians.  I remember a friend who used to have Korn (a band) posters in his room.  he would make me listen to that music.  I can honestly tell you that it made me feel sick.  my stomach got upset and I got the WORST headache I've ever had.  plus I've seen this genre's music videos, and they all seem so sad and depressing-even a but scary.  I find it most fascinating that there are Christians that listen to this music. 

just a good example of the diverse types we have in the faith! 
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« Reply #106 on: February 20, 2010, 05:59:05 PM »

Yeah, Korn are pretty terrible. They give me a headache as well. They're certainly no standard by which to judge metal, let alone death metal (as they fall outside that genre entirely).
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« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2010, 08:05:14 PM »

The truth about Rock Music:

http://www.philokalia.org/Constantine%20Zalalas/OTF/OTF05A.mp3
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« Reply #108 on: February 22, 2011, 04:45:47 AM »

I listen to a wide variety of music: classical, jazz, industrial, different types of metal (thrash metal, death metal, black metal, industrial metal, progressive metal, sludge metal, stoner metal, metalcore, doom metal etc) , experimental electronic, different types of rock (hard rock, classic rock, progressive rock, industrial rock, etc). I also listen to Orthodox chants.

The question of listening to the darker stuff (the darker metal, particularly black/death/doom metal) has been on my mind as I have been delving deeper into Orthodoxy. In my experience, in my past, I have found that many of these artists have gnostic undertones in their messages and lyrics.

When I was in my quest for truth, I have been through basic Protestantism, Hindu philosophy (hare krishna focused), Hermetic esoteric sciences, Neuro-Linguistic Programming and New Age metaphysics, before arriving to Orthodoxy, during the more esoteric times, I have found many many parallels of the lyrics of the artists to their esoteric state, built off their gnostic beliefs. Very frequently you would hear references to the "sun", mirror and other esoteric elements in their messages.

Now, I have been listening to metal music since I was 10 years old, gradually over the years delving deeper and deeper, and now my library includes some of the heaviest music, in genres such as Technical Death Metal and others. My whole life I have been avoiding connecting to the lyrics of the music which I listened to, until I reached deeper levels of my esoteric Hermetic and New Age practices, and in that time I smoked weed nearly every day, studying these things (yet I remained hanging on Christ throughout all of this, who pulled me out of the depths later on). I've found that those things - altered state of consciousness, esoteric practices and esoteric lyrics were used as tools by the demons to try to convert me to Gnosticism, or magickal beliefs.

When I stopped researching the esoteric arts, stopping taking drugs and smoking weed, and delved head-first into Orthodoxy, over time I have found the lyrics lost their power over me. However, at times I have found some bands, especially in black metal and some death metal, giving me an uneasy feeling when I could understand the lyrics, a slight recall to the anxiety of my darker times. However, as time went by, this feeling started to become less and less.

Now, I am a fan of music, very many types of music, but I have a special sweet spot for metal. There is something about the movements, the textures of the guitars, and the rhythms, to me is like a dance of sound, and almost like a structure built of Lego bricks in my mind. The last problem that remains is when I understand lyrics which are contrary to my faith.

I genuinely enjoy the music of a lot of these genres. I don't enjoy ALL metal, but neither do I enjoy ALL classical, etc. Whenever I feel I am listening to music to where the message of the singers is contrary to my faith, or is being used as a tool to break my spirit or faith in Christ, I pray to Christ to protect me from the message, and label the lyrics and message of the music in my mind as "inferior garbage" and not hidden messages or knowledge like they once seemed to me. The more I begin to see these rubbish lyrics as simply garbage inspired by teachings of demons, the less power they have over me.

This allows me to rejoice in the Truth of my faith, the ultimate Truth of Christ, and His victory over anything demonic. The actual music and instrumentals were composed by individual musicians who had a passion for playing their instruments, be it technical guitaring or amazing drumming, rather than composing a piece of music specifically to implant it with a Satanic or Anti-Christian, or even secular message. It is very rare that a musician would create a piece of music with that intent.

As a musician, I appreciate the God-given talents these musicians express. All human beings should be viewed as Icons of God, Images of God, and should be respected. As Christ commanded us to love our enemies, so we must respect these human beings and their talents given to them by Christ, even if they are doing things which are against our faith, we must still love them and pray for them regardless. Rather than condemning them, we are commanded by Christ not to judge others, and so we must still see them as creations of God.

As a musician, I find it incredibly important to differentiate actual music from lyrics. I hate the messages expressed by a lot of these bands, but surely if these same musicians were not deceived by our true enemy, Satan, and if they were fully aware of and understood the Glory and Goodness of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, Son of God (Have mercy on us sinners), if they truly understood this, they would not be singing or promoting the messages that they do.

But as human beings creating music, so do I too appreciate the incredible God-given talents of some of these musicians, no matter what the beliefs or the message of some of these bands may be, if the band is musically satisfying to hear, we can train ourselves and pray to Christ to protect us and separate us from the message of the lyrics, to allow us to experience the music, and glorify God for creating the faculties to allow us to hear the wonderful sounds, and for giving these people the talents to be able to play and create the music. This has been the approach I have been taking, and I have found myself being able to enjoy such music much more, with the Glory of Christ triumphantly taking away the power of the message. As for the people propagating the message, we should pray for them and their salvation, rather than condemn them.

Now, I understand I am completely unworthy to deliver my understanding as a valid genuine spiritual instruction, and I am still learning a great deal myself, and changing as my knowledge of Orthodoxy grows, so please take my words as a grain of salt. I believe music is a gift from God, and any music that we enjoy, we should do our best to iron out Satan's poison out of the music (which is generally the message of the lyrics) and pray to Christ to guard our hearts from the lyrics, and allow us to glorify him through the actual music.

As far as the question of how can anyone enjoy this music? My answer would be to compare it to spicy food. It is an acquired taste. Many people hate spicy food because for them, there is no flavour, or it is too harsh and destroys the rest of the meal. However, others have grown into it, and find great enjoyment in it, in some cases even moreso than non-spicy food!

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, Your wretched and unworthy servant.
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« Reply #109 on: February 22, 2011, 08:26:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In two years of this thread, how did Fratello Metallo not come up?  It was a black metal band officially sanctioned by the Vatican.  The good Father retired recently claiming the demons of the music industry were corrupting his message, though he did not retire from jamming black metal with his friends, just playing professionally.  This guy is intense, and he comes out with his prayer beads at that!






stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #110 on: February 22, 2011, 08:37:51 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In two years of this thread, how did Fratello Metallo not come up?  It was a black metal band officially sanctioned by the Vatican.  The good Father retired recently claiming the demons of the music industry were corrupting his message, though he did not retire from jamming black metal with his friends, just playing professionally.  This guy is intense, and he comes out with his prayer beads at that!



Officially sanctioned?
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« Reply #111 on: February 22, 2011, 09:14:14 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In two years of this thread, how did Fratello Metallo not come up?  It was a black metal band officially sanctioned by the Vatican.  The good Father retired recently claiming the demons of the music industry were corrupting his message, though he did not retire from jamming black metal with his friends, just playing professionally.  This guy is intense, and he comes out with his prayer beads at that!






stay blessed,
habte selassie


Do you know where I can find an english translation of their lyrics?
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« Reply #112 on: February 22, 2011, 10:00:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In two years of this thread, how did Fratello Metallo not come up?  It was a black metal band officially sanctioned by the Vatican.  The good Father retired recently claiming the demons of the music industry were corrupting his message, though he did not retire from jamming black metal with his friends, just playing professionally.  This guy is intense, and he comes out with his prayer beads at that!



Officially sanctioned?

And they're not black metal either.
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« Reply #113 on: February 22, 2011, 10:02:26 PM »

Yeah, Korn are pretty terrible. They give me a headache as well. They're certainly no standard by which to judge metal, let alone death metal (as they fall outside that genre entirely).

"Mall metal" is probably the best label.
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« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2011, 04:50:11 AM »

I'm quite surprised that many people on this forum (I'm assuming they are christians) seem to like death metal music. I was always taught that this was not suitable music for the christian, and seeing some of the images recently posted in another thread, I can appreciate why it was forbidden in my former faith. So, I would like to ask those of you who seem to like and listen to this genre why you enjoy this and why you feel it is acceptable for a christian to listen to something with such horrific and psychologically traumatizing imagery. Thanks.


I miss Rosehip.  Sad


Selam
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« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2011, 06:02:58 AM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it. I’ve been searching for a non-horrible metal song like the Holy Grail, but whenever I find a cup to drink from, my face melts off like the Nazi in The Last Crusade. Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.
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« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2011, 06:34:12 AM »

Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

Manowar - Metal Warriors

Every one of us has heard the call
Brothers of True Metal proud and standing tall
We know the power within us has brought us to this hall
there's magic in the metal there's magic is us all

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers go on get out
Leave the hall

Now the world must listen to our decree
We don't turn down for anyone we do just what we please
got to make it louder, all men play on ten
If you're not into metal, you are not my friend

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers I said
Leave the hall

Now the world must listen to our decree
We don't turn down for anyone we do just what we please
Got to make it louder, all men play on ten
If you're not into metal, you are not my friend

There's metal in the air tonite, can you hear it call
If you ain't got the balls, to take it you can
Leave the hall

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
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« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2011, 07:03:16 AM »

Solidifying my point  Wink
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« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2011, 08:53:02 AM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it. I’ve been searching for a non-horrible metal song like the Holy Grail, but whenever I find a cup to drink from, my face melts off like the Nazi in The Last Crusade. Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

I'm with you brother! Wonderfully stated! Grin However, I shall try hard not to begrudge others their tastes. But I struggle to see how the vibe of "Death Metal" can ever be conducive to the cultivation of a righteous spirit.  That's just me though; not saying it isn't possible.


Selam
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« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2011, 09:00:28 AM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it.

I've found that metal is a very diverse and complicated genre, to the point where there is some metal that has little commonality with other forms. I tend to prefer the folkier forms of black, death, and doom metal:

Empyrium- "Mourners"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-zIM6_mYzE

Ulver- " I Troldskog Faren Vild"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNyIWBCFq5Y

Summoning- "South Away"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJqVkJq_9Ow

Moonsorrow- "Jumalten Kaupunki"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcT_arJIRCA

The Vision Bleak- "The Shining Trapezohedron"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJnYYms6NA4

Personally I've never been a huge fan of "classic" metal, but if you don't like Iron Maiden's "Aces High," you don't like ice cream:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUK6ScAeFKE&feature=fvst

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« Reply #120 on: February 23, 2011, 10:28:10 AM »

Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

Manowar - Metal Warriors

Every one of us has heard the call
Brothers of True Metal proud and standing tall
We know the power within us has brought us to this hall
there's magic in the metal there's magic is us all

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers go on get out
Leave the hall

Now the world must listen to our decree
We don't turn down for anyone we do just what we please
got to make it louder, all men play on ten
If you're not into metal, you are not my friend

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers I said
Leave the hall

Now the world must listen to our decree
We don't turn down for anyone we do just what we please
Got to make it louder, all men play on ten
If you're not into metal, you are not my friend

There's metal in the air tonite, can you hear it call
If you ain't got the balls, to take it you can
Leave the hall

Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall
Heavy metal or no metal at all whimps and posers leave the hall


Yeah, this seems appropriate for a Christian forum.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #121 on: February 23, 2011, 10:46:28 AM »

Iron Maiden's "The Longest Day", a song about D-Day.

From the undulating bass line at the beginning which calls to mind the Higgins boats crossing the channel and the incredible drumming in the intro mimicking the sound of the artillery from the beach to the fearful joy of the vocals and the chaotic yet melodic guitar solos which recall the confusion of battle, this song is most definitely art.

Another song of theirs which also does a fantastic job of portraying the romantically tragic feel of war is "Passchendale, particularly the way the beginning goes from a rhythmic pattern recalling Morse Code and then to the soft lone guitar simile which breaks out into loud bombastic chords; this effect is also successful in the middle-eight, which feels like the lull before a big push.  The guitar solos are brilliant as Dave Murray brings us out of the trench with a hopeful "HURRAH!" only to have it cut down by Adrian Smith's staccato melody which, to me, at least, sounds like machine gun fire.  Janick Gers' final lead brings it home with one of his patented solos which conveys the brutal truth of No Man's Land after another ill-fated push from the trenches.
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« Reply #122 on: February 23, 2011, 11:00:25 AM »

Iron Maiden's "The Longest Day", a song about D-Day.

From the undulating bass line at the beginning which calls to mind the Higgins boats crossing the channel and the incredible drumming in the intro mimicking the sound of the artillery from the beach to the fearful joy of the vocals and the chaotic yet melodic guitar solos which recall the confusion of battle, this song is most definitely art.

Another song of theirs which also does a fantastic job of portraying the romantically tragic feel of war is "Passchendale, particularly the way the beginning goes from a rhythmic pattern recalling Morse Code and then to the soft lone guitar simile which breaks out into loud bombastic chords; this effect is also successful in the middle-eight, which feels like the lull before a big push.  The guitar solos are brilliant as Dave Murray brings us out of the trench with a hopeful "HURRAH!" only to have it cut down by Adrian Smith's staccato melody which, to me, at least, sounds like machine gun fire.  Janick Gers' final lead brings it home with one of his patented solos which conveys the brutal truth of No Man's Land after another ill-fated push from the trenches.

I might have to listen to "Passchendale" when I get home.  That would have been a crappy battle to have been involved in.  Have your heard Sabaton's Price of a Mile?  It's also about Passchendale.
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« Reply #123 on: February 23, 2011, 05:09:31 PM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it. I’ve been searching for a non-horrible metal song like the Holy Grail, but whenever I find a cup to drink from, my face melts off like the Nazi in The Last Crusade. Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-68oA61_yuw

We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears
We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears

But what wisdom is there within us
To live based on the feeling of our hearts?
How many times has instinct let us down
Never to be thought through
Never to be questioned

Say what you really mean
When your ambition calls you, calls you
For what use is there in praying
If you will only hear what you want to hear?

We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears

We speak of fighting to resist this world
But what about the battle within us?
If we have chosen to live against the grain
Then why are we all facing the same way?

There is no difference between us and them
If we all blindly seek truth from sentiments

We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears

We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears
We have all heard what we wanted to hear
Truth that sounds right to our ears
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« Reply #124 on: February 23, 2011, 05:17:11 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

All this arose in their wake.

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« Reply #125 on: February 23, 2011, 05:27:29 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

All this arose in their wake.

Anything in particular that did it?
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« Reply #126 on: February 23, 2011, 05:30:05 PM »

I'm quite surprised that many people on this forum (I'm assuming they are christians) seem to like death metal music. I was always taught that this was not suitable music for the christian, and seeing some of the images recently posted in another thread, I can appreciate why it was forbidden in my former faith. So, I would like to ask those of you who seem to like and listen to this genre why you enjoy this and why you feel it is acceptable for a christian to listen to something with such horrific and psychologically traumatizing imagery. Thanks.


I miss Rosehip.  Sad


Selam

Me too.  She was always so gentle and yet to the point. 
Hopefully, she's resting peacefully.

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« Reply #127 on: February 23, 2011, 05:48:59 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

All this arose in their wake.

Anything in particular that did it?

Did what?

I was being hyperbolic about everything arising in their wake., but you would be hard not to see their influence on the "death metal / black metal" which rises above the fray. "Sludge metal / southern death metal" certainly is hugely indebted to Neurosis.

I haven't followed anything stuff seriously for years. Was driving past a venue one night with a buddy just within the last year and heard some actually decent stuff. So we got out. Great show. I asked the guys their biggest influence, in spite of the typical "punk" patches they were wearing: Neurosis.

Even post-folk stuff has their stamp. When I first Newsome's second album, I knew I heard a quick musical nod to Neurosis, looked her up and indeed she was a fan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis_(band)

Enemy of the Sun was a game changer for me. Kid grew up listening to nothing but hip-hop and ole tyme Gospel.

 
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« Reply #128 on: February 23, 2011, 05:54:44 PM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it. I’ve been searching for a non-horrible metal song like the Holy Grail, but whenever I find a cup to drink from, my face melts off like the Nazi in The Last Crusade. Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

I'm with you brother! Wonderfully stated! Grin However, I shall try hard not to begrudge others their tastes. But I struggle to see how the vibe of "Death Metal" can ever be conducive to the cultivation of a righteous spirit.  That's just me though; not saying it isn't possible.


Selam

And I don't understand how "reggae", except for the early "ska / dance hall", can lead to anything after listening for more than 3.67 minutes other than wanting to shove a screwdriver into my eardrum.

These various music "niches" grew out of certain alt-cultural communities, which have a lot more in common in with the "ethical" side of Christianity than most other pop genres.

 
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« Reply #129 on: February 23, 2011, 06:44:43 PM »

If there’s one metal track out there that disproves the notion that all metal is complete crap, I’d absolutely love to hear it. I’ve been searching for a non-horrible metal song like the Holy Grail, but whenever I find a cup to drink from, my face melts off like the Nazi in The Last Crusade. Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I sometimes get the feeling that it’s all a huge joke that everyone else is in on but me.

I'm with you brother! Wonderfully stated! Grin However, I shall try hard not to begrudge others their tastes. But I struggle to see how the vibe of "Death Metal" can ever be conducive to the cultivation of a righteous spirit.  That's just me though; not saying it isn't possible.


Selam

And I don't understand how "reggae", except for the early "ska / dance hall", can lead to anything after listening for more than 3.67 minutes other than wanting to shove a screwdriver into my eardrum.

These various music "niches" grew out of certain alt-cultural communities, which have a lot more in common in with the "ethical" side of Christianity than most other pop genres.

 

Don't be talking trash about Reggae, man.  Everything has a time and a place.  There is a time for Amon Amarth (rush hour traffic) and a time for Toots and the Maytals (after surviving rush hour traffic).
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« Reply #130 on: February 23, 2011, 06:54:51 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

All this arose in their wake.

Anything in particular that did it?

Did what?

I was being hyperbolic about everything arising in their wake., but you would be hard not to see their influence on the "death metal / black metal" which rises above the fray. "Sludge metal / southern death metal" certainly is hugely indebted to Neurosis.

I haven't followed anything stuff seriously for years. Was driving past a venue one night with a buddy just within the last year and heard some actually decent stuff. So we got out. Great show. I asked the guys their biggest influence, in spite of the typical "punk" patches they were wearing: Neurosis.

Even post-folk stuff has their stamp. When I first Newsome's second album, I knew I heard a quick musical nod to Neurosis, looked her up and indeed she was a fan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis_(band)

Enemy of the Sun was a game changer for me. Kid grew up listening to nothing but hip-hop and ole tyme Gospel.

OK. Never heard of them before for some reason.
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« Reply #131 on: February 23, 2011, 08:21:03 PM »

Quote
And I don't understand how "reggae", except for the early "ska / dance hall", can lead to anything after listening for more than 3.67 minutes other than wanting to shove a screwdriver into my eardrum.
Absolutely. I have heard one reggae song in my life that I enjoy, and I can't even remember the name of it. It would actually take 2 screwdrivers to take care of the problem though. Unless of course you are deaf in one ear...
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« Reply #132 on: February 23, 2011, 08:31:46 PM »

I'm quite surprised that many people on this forum (I'm assuming they are christians) seem to like death metal music. I was always taught that this was not suitable music for the christian, and seeing some of the images recently posted in another thread, I can appreciate why it was forbidden in my former faith. So, I would like to ask those of you who seem to like and listen to this genre why you enjoy this and why you feel it is acceptable for a christian to listen to something with such horrific and psychologically traumatizing imagery. Thanks.


I miss Rosehip.  Sad


Selam

Me too, brother.  Her question above went straight to the point, yet was not acrimonious.  That's how I remember her always being. 
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« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2011, 05:32:55 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4FpVWOoI-8&feature=related  Smiley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4eX2NogBEs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs7i_ckEHVA&feature=relatedCheesy does he try to look like Jesus!?
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« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2011, 05:57:23 PM »

Metal is based on a kind of stupidity that I find impossible to comprehend. It looks and sounds so fundamentally opposite to art that my brain reels when I even try to consider the idea of enjoying it.

Excellent!
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« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2011, 10:41:17 PM »

Most of you guys should watch a documentary film called "They sold their souls for rock and roll" from fight the good fight ministries.  There is a 10 hour version that is absolutely jaw dropping.  Most people don't know how deep and Satanic almost all main stream music is. 

I can personally attest to this.  I was VERY Orthodox as a child.  The heavy music led me away from the church.  I got into bands like Pantera & Slayer eventually which was the darkest 1 year of my life that I still regret to this day.

Please consider what you listen to.  The rhythms beat the message into your mind... You begin to live the lifestyle of what you hear.

Today at my home we listen to virtually nothing except Orthodox praise.

PLEASE watch that documentary.  It will change your life.
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« Reply #136 on: March 08, 2011, 11:01:42 PM »

I have always struggled with music.

After my born again experience, I heard a lot of fellow church members talking about how all mainstream music was wrong, satanic, and just not good for the soul. I deleted all of the secular songs from my computer and my IPod, which, looking back on it, wasn't a bad move. A lot of songs reminded me of moments in my past that I shouldn't have been recalling on a daily basis.

However, over the years, I began to explore international music as a part of my language study. I listened to Arabic, Russian, Ukrainian, Israeli music. Very slowly, I began adding some secular groups back to my library.

Around this time, I was honestly a bit tired of CCM. No offense to any CCM artists, but for the most part, they are repetitive and many of them sound like cheap copies of famous secular bands or singers. (Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy several CCM singers, but this is my opinion about the genre in general.) I was also a bit disgusted with how some artists churned out worship CDs, special edition CDs, etc., several times a year, presumably just for the money.

I began going back to my old music, picking and choosing a few songs that were not good for my spirit and deleting those completely. I was relieved to use the elliptical while listening to Ace of Base (hey, I have a weakness for 90s Europop!) again.

At this time, I met my now husband, who is a BIG metal fan. I never liked metal, but I began liking some of the symphonic metal (aka wimpy metal  Tongue) bands, sort of a dark opera/pop style. I went through their lyrics before downloading the songs. Now, most of them aren't Christian at all (although some of the bands are!), but they mainly sing about pagan themes or vaguely reference God.

I made sure that I wasn't listening to anything that was really dark (I can't stand screaming or growling) and I generally don't have a feeling like I do when my husband plays some of his music. (I have this feeling like I can't breathe, like I'm suffocating. It's weird to explain. Thankfully, he doesn't listen those bands any more.)

Now, I'm not going to lie. Some of the lyrics are really not great, and I feel ashamed when I catch myself singing them out loud. I don't buy into their religious or political views, but I do admire the artistry and well-written lyrics. It's something I struggle with pretty often. God's working on me, I guess.

I don't go to concerts or follow bands, so music isn't such a big issue with me. I mean, I DO read books written by non-believers and I can admire the writing style of authors who are not Christian. I do have to be constantly mindful of what I read. I view this as a similar issue.
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« Reply #137 on: June 19, 2011, 10:20:40 PM »

I love death metal. It isnt my favorite metal type but I still love it. I can't bring myself to listen to the Satanic stuff though, and I hate black metal. ALL black metal.

There are some really beautiful death metal lyrics, though.

Extol for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKXF4P0-mHU

And there is much musically beautiful death metal as well, like In Flames and Opeth.
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« Reply #138 on: June 20, 2011, 11:21:32 AM »

Im actually kind of shocked nobody brought up the "devil's note" or the evils of the triple tone yet.....utter nonsense, that.

As for Metal, it is what you make of it. I played metal in my younger days (I've been a musician for quite a long time). I just find it now to be repetitive, non-creative, and generally ridiculous.

The only thing that I can even say I listen to remotely related to metal is prog (ie. Dream Theater, etc).

In the end, there's music of all genres with evil connotations, and music that isnt. I dont think any genre is inherently evil per se.

However, rap should be used to torture people........

primuspilus
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« Reply #139 on: June 20, 2011, 04:46:07 PM »

Greetings in that divine and most precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I have always struggled with music.

After my born again experience, I heard a lot of fellow church members talking about how all mainstream music was wrong, satanic, and just not good for the soul. I deleted all of the secular songs from my computer and my IPod, which, looking back on it, wasn't a bad move. A lot of songs reminded me of moments in my past that I shouldn't have been recalling on a daily basis.

However, over the years, I began to explore international music as a part of my language study. I listened to Arabic, Russian, Ukrainian, Israeli music. Very slowly, I began adding some secular groups back to my library.

Around this time, I was honestly a bit tired of CCM. No offense to any CCM artists, but for the most part, they are repetitive and many of them sound like cheap copies of famous secular bands or singers. (Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy several CCM singers, but this is my opinion about the genre in general.) I was also a bit disgusted with how some artists churned out worship CDs, special edition CDs, etc., several times a year, presumably just for the money.

I began going back to my old music, picking and choosing a few songs that were not good for my spirit and deleting those completely. I was relieved to use the elliptical while listening to Ace of Base (hey, I have a weakness for 90s Europop!) again.

At this time, I met my now husband, who is a BIG metal fan. I never liked metal, but I began liking some of the symphonic metal (aka wimpy metal  Tongue) bands, sort of a dark opera/pop style. I went through their lyrics before downloading the songs. Now, most of them aren't Christian at all (although some of the bands are!), but they mainly sing about pagan themes or vaguely reference God.

I made sure that I wasn't listening to anything that was really dark (I can't stand screaming or growling) and I generally don't have a feeling like I do when my husband plays some of his music. (I have this feeling like I can't breathe, like I'm suffocating. It's weird to explain. Thankfully, he doesn't listen those bands any more.)

Now, I'm not going to lie. Some of the lyrics are really not great, and I feel ashamed when I catch myself singing them out loud. I don't buy into their religious or political views, but I do admire the artistry and well-written lyrics. It's something I struggle with pretty often. God's working on me, I guess.

I don't go to concerts or follow bands, so music isn't such a big issue with me. I mean, I DO read books written by non-believers and I can admire the writing style of authors who are not Christian. I do have to be constantly mindful of what I read. I view this as a similar issue.

This is a delightful testimony.  God has given us the plurality of free-will precisely in order that we may dive into the depth and profundity of the complications and contradictions of our flawed human condition.  Those who follow a vain asceticism and avoid all forms of "distraction" fail to realize that their very avoidance can become a source of pride and distraction.  The outside of the cup may be sparkling, whereas the inside is rapacious.  Personally, I never bought into throwing out my "secular" music, even some of the darker, nihilistic, or blatantly negative music, because these are equally part of the human experience as my praises, hymns, and conscious musics.  We must embrace all aspects of our humanity in order to heal all our wounds.  If we simply neglect or ignore certain aspects of ourselves, it will only fester and erupt later in life as it always does. 

So if we feel an affinity or connection to any kind of art, we should not necessarily afraid of it, so long as we approach it like Christians.  If we do not let ourselves become possessed by such arts, then we can actually grow in our Faith.  Even blatantly negative music offers us the opportunity to pose those deep and profound questions which our soul harbors in its very core.  Music that reminds of depressing or frightening moments of our life help us to recall how we survived them, or help us to uncover our unhealed wounds that remain and work on them through the prayerful effort.  At least that is how I approach less overtly positive art like musics, films, and literature.  In this regard, the Bible is just the same.  Remember the Bible is more so a book of song and poetry rather than facts and histories.  In this, some of the songs are dirges, some are war cries, some are lamentations, some are venting frustrations, and others are praises and prayers for good.  If the Bible even expressed these other aspects of ourselves, surely our iTunes libraries can do the same Wink

It is also hopeless naive to assume that just because we throw out "secular" or even negative art from our collections or influence that the devils will abandon us, because as the Desert Fathers teach us, the devils actually follow us deeper into those spiritual wildernesses and attack as all the more so when we try to escape them of our own force of will. 

When we try to avoid a distraction in life, it actually becomes even more so a distraction, like continually tonguing a sore in our mouths to monitor its healing only to further agrivate the wound.  We sometimes NEED to run the gauntlet and experience the depths of our minds and what is there, even when it can seem unseemly, that we can better know what is there, and pray with God to heal and reconcile our flaws, wounds, and misunderstandings. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #140 on: March 01, 2012, 06:18:34 PM »


Why should the devil have all the drugs?  Why should the devil have all the sex outside of marriage?  Why should the devil have all the ... whatever.  How stupid. 

I'm not bragging, but I am one of the meanest, fastest, double bassiest metal drummers you could ever meet.  I've played in death metal bands (as well as other genres), toured around the US and I've been involved in the recording of 7 albums. 

I'm so glad all that foolishness is behind me now.  It is like a demon that clung to me for years.  The memories of the horrible lyrics I listened to as a younger guy still haunt me.  They pop up in my head during prayer.  I don't see how anyone could practice the Jesus Prayer then go turn on some Cannibal Corpse, or any fake metal junk with "Christian" lyrics.  The anger produced by the obviously very angry music actually effected me physically.  The temptations of the dark clubs and bars I played in are more than I could endure, and any God-seeking Christian should avoid places like that. 

I'm just glad that I'm Orthodox now.  It is like therapy for my horribly sinful soul.  It will take a long time for me to recover.  I just hope my children don't do what I did.  I'm not a fundamentalist or anything, but I would caution all you metal/punk/black metal people to .....  grow up. 
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« Reply #141 on: March 01, 2012, 06:22:51 PM »


Why should the devil have all the drugs?  Why should the devil have all the sex outside of marriage?  Why should the devil have all the ... whatever.  How stupid. 

I'm not bragging, but I am one of the meanest, fastest, double bassiest metal drummers you could ever meet.  I've played in death metal bands (as well as other genres), toured around the US and I've been involved in the recording of 7 albums. 

I'm so glad all that foolishness is behind me now.  It is like a demon that clung to me for years.  The memories of the horrible lyrics I listened to as a younger guy still haunt me.  They pop up in my head during prayer.  I don't see how anyone could practice the Jesus Prayer then go turn on some Cannibal Corpse, or any fake metal junk with "Christian" lyrics.  The anger produced by the obviously very angry music actually effected me physically.  The temptations of the dark clubs and bars I played in are more than I could endure, and any God-seeking Christian should avoid places like that. 

I'm just glad that I'm Orthodox now.  It is like therapy for my horribly sinful soul.  It will take a long time for me to recover.  I just hope my children don't do what I did.  I'm not a fundamentalist or anything, but I would caution all you metal/punk/black metal people to .....  grow up. 

See my reply to this same post you made in another thread.
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« Reply #142 on: March 01, 2012, 06:27:38 PM »


Why should the devil have all the drugs?  Why should the devil have all the sex outside of marriage?  Why should the devil have all the ... whatever.  How stupid. 

I'm not bragging, but I am one of the meanest, fastest, double bassiest metal drummers you could ever meet.  I've played in death metal bands (as well as other genres), toured around the US and I've been involved in the recording of 7 albums. 

I'm so glad all that foolishness is behind me now.  It is like a demon that clung to me for years.  The memories of the horrible lyrics I listened to as a younger guy still haunt me.  They pop up in my head during prayer.  I don't see how anyone could practice the Jesus Prayer then go turn on some Cannibal Corpse, or any fake metal junk with "Christian" lyrics.  The anger produced by the obviously very angry music actually effected me physically.  The temptations of the dark clubs and bars I played in are more than I could endure, and any God-seeking Christian should avoid places like that. 

I'm just glad that I'm Orthodox now.  It is like therapy for my horribly sinful soul.  It will take a long time for me to recover.  I just hope my children don't do what I did.  I'm not a fundamentalist or anything, but I would caution all you metal/punk/black metal people to .....  grow up. 

See my reply to this same post you made in another thread.

Trust me, the temptation is there.  I miss playing quite often, and I believe that my talent in drumming is a gift from God, but I'm focusing on classical guitar.  Much more soothing.  Like David and his harp.  I doubt that David could have soothed Saul's terrible anger problem by playing him some metal! 
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« Reply #143 on: March 01, 2012, 06:28:48 PM »


Why should the devil have all the drugs?  Why should the devil have all the sex outside of marriage?  Why should the devil have all the ... whatever.  How stupid. 

I'm not bragging, but I am one of the meanest, fastest, double bassiest metal drummers you could ever meet.  I've played in death metal bands (as well as other genres), toured around the US and I've been involved in the recording of 7 albums. 

I'm so glad all that foolishness is behind me now.  It is like a demon that clung to me for years.  The memories of the horrible lyrics I listened to as a younger guy still haunt me.  They pop up in my head during prayer.  I don't see how anyone could practice the Jesus Prayer then go turn on some Cannibal Corpse, or any fake metal junk with "Christian" lyrics.  The anger produced by the obviously very angry music actually effected me physically.  The temptations of the dark clubs and bars I played in are more than I could endure, and any God-seeking Christian should avoid places like that. 

I'm just glad that I'm Orthodox now.  It is like therapy for my horribly sinful soul.  It will take a long time for me to recover.  I just hope my children don't do what I did.  I'm not a fundamentalist or anything, but I would caution all you metal/punk/black metal people to .....  grow up. 

See my reply to this same post you made in another thread.

Trust me, the temptation is there.  I miss playing quite often, and I believe that my talent in drumming is a gift from God, but I'm focusing on classical guitar.  Much more soothing.  Like David and his harp.  I doubt that David could have soothed Saul's terrible anger problem by playing him some metal! 

Burzum might have done it.
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« Reply #144 on: March 01, 2012, 06:57:03 PM »

I personally prefer conscious hip-hop like Tupac Shakur, KRS 1 and Nas because they spoke about the problems faced in urban youth today and urged people to make a change and try to end poverty, racism and violence. Many people accuse me of this and see it odd, however, many of these people are only judging hip-hop from the exterior. They hear swear words or the mention of guns and violence and they immediately assume it is wrong even though they do not get the deeper message that the artist is really advocating. I do however admit that there are some hip-hop artists who have advocated a pretty immoral lifestyle, like fornicating, getting high or shooting cops. However, I honestly feel that people exaggerate it and it is nothing compared to some of this stuff in black metal. Hip-hop in my opinion represents a lifestyle and a culture; it tells of the sufferings endured by urban youth and the immoral side to it describes what the twisted urban youth wishes to have; which includes women, drugs and the ability to retaliate at the police with no consequences. While I would not advocate this lifestyle and desires, I still feel a bit of sympathy for them being an urban Mexican youth myself. I still however prefer the conscious side that simply describes the pain and struggles, then urges us to make a change. Tupac did this very often. I do however admit, that in the darkest depths of hip-hop, there is some content that is just as disturbing and immoral, if not even worse, than some of this crap in black metal. Ever heard of Big L? He was a rapper back in the 90s who remained somewhat underground and was ahead of his time for his use of multi-syllables, flow, punchlines and freestyle battle abilities. The only thing is, his music is perhaps more violent than any other artist in the history of hip-hop, and for a time he even explicitly advocated a Satanic message such as in his song 'Devils Son' where he describes him and his gang getting possessed by demons, committing gruesome murders and shooting up Heaven etc. While I cannot really listen to this stuff because of my ethics, I still do appreciate his technical skill in terms of hip-hop.

These are some of my favorite songs, they aren't too explicit if you actually listen to the message.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8Y9-JlSRXw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaJJX8cbIig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cz_nOpxgCU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbs7wWLXLpw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Vk0EL-r8g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh9S4vLDDOI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRWUs0KtB-I&ob=av2e

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSgkBF6LjH4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An6xqwOUYGU
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« Reply #145 on: March 01, 2012, 09:55:56 PM »

Foolishness.  A waste of time. 
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« Reply #146 on: March 01, 2012, 10:04:26 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

A kindred spirit. For me, the best are Through Silver in Blood and Times of Grace.

Foolishness.  A waste of time. 

Be watchful; there are purple demons afoot.
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« Reply #147 on: March 02, 2012, 04:14:53 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

A kindred spirit. For me, the best are Through Silver in Blood and Times of Grace.

Foolishness.  A waste of time. 

Be watchful; there are purple demons afoot.

Purple demons are foolishness too, as well as metal, death metal, black metal, and the silly people that listen to it and imitate the growling noices and mimic blast beats with their hands, etc.  It is for boys rebelling against their parents while growing their first pubic hairs who have see-through mustaches who haven't had a hair cut in a couple months and brush it off their forehead constantly, and reeeaaally want a tattoo and are considering getting huge holes put in their ears because they inwardly love jungle type paganism and tribal tattoos.  If you have graduated from high school, or are over the age of 17, and still imitate growling voices while you drive home from your job at BK and get shivers when a blast beat happens, you are a looooser. 
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« Reply #148 on: March 02, 2012, 04:26:30 PM »

Im glad you're the authority.

PP
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« Reply #149 on: March 02, 2012, 04:30:05 PM »

Im glad you're the authority.

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Thanks for recognizing.  "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"  Isaiah 5:20
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« Reply #150 on: March 02, 2012, 04:47:44 PM »

From a lecture by Fr. Seraphim.  Please read the whole thing.  It's not that much. 

"The child who has been exposed from his earliest years to good classical music, and has seen his soul being developed by it, will not be nearly as tempted by the crude rhythm and message of rock and other contemporary forms of pseudo-music as someone who has grown up without a musical education. Such a musical education, as several of the Optina Elders have said, refines the soul and prepares it for the reception of spiritual impressions.

The child who has been educated in good literature, drama, and poetry and has felt their effect on his soul -- that is, has really enjoyed them -- will not easily become an addict of contemporary movies and television programs and cheap novels that devastate the soul and take it away from the Christian path.

The child who has learned to see beauty in classical painting and sculpture will not easily be drawn into the perversity of contemporary art or be attracted by the garish products of modern advertising and pornography.

The child who knows something of the history of the world, especially in Christian times, and how other people have lived and thought, what mistakes and pitfalls people have fallen into by departing from God and His commandments, and what glorious and influential lives they have lived when they were faithful to Him, will be discerning about the life and philosophy of our own times and will not be inclined to follow the first new philosophy or way of life he encounters ...

In general, the person who is well acquainted with the best products of secular culture -- which in the West almost always have definite religious and Christian overtones -- has a much better chance of leading a normal, fruitful Orthodox* life than someone who knows only the popular culture of today. One who is converted to Orthodoxy straight from 'rock' culture, and in general anyone who thinks he can combine Orthodoxy with that kind of culture -- has much suffering to go through and a difficult road in life before he can become a truly serious Orthodox Christian who is capable of handing on his faith to others. Without this suffering, without the awareness, Orthodox parents will raise their children to be devoured by the contemporary world."
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« Reply #151 on: March 02, 2012, 05:39:44 PM »

Whenever subjects like this come up, I am reminded of the verse in 1 Corinthians: All things are lawful, but not all things edify.
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« Reply #152 on: March 02, 2012, 06:21:45 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

A kindred spirit. For me, the best are Through Silver in Blood and Times of Grace.

Foolishness.  A waste of time. 

Be watchful; there are purple demons afoot.

Purple demons are foolishness too, as well as metal, death metal, black metal, and the silly people that listen to it and imitate the growling noices and mimic blast beats with their hands, etc.  It is for boys rebelling against their parents while growing their first pubic hairs who have see-through mustaches who haven't had a hair cut in a couple months and brush it off their forehead constantly, and reeeaaally want a tattoo and are considering getting huge holes put in their ears because they inwardly love jungle type paganism and tribal tattoos.  If you have graduated from high school, or are over the age of 17, and still imitate growling voices while you drive home from your job at BK and get shivers when a blast beat happens, you are a looooser. 

Yeah, God forbid people should do dumb things to enjoy themselves when they're 17.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #153 on: March 02, 2012, 06:25:44 PM »

Yeah, God forbid people should do dumb things to enjoy themselves when they're 17.  Roll Eyes

I do dumb stuff all the time at 29. I've accepted my "loser" status and just go with it, it can be fun at times.
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« Reply #154 on: March 02, 2012, 11:21:56 PM »

Purple demons are foolishness too, as well as metal, death metal, black metal, and the silly people that listen to it and imitate the growling noices and mimic blast beats with their hands, etc.  It is for boys rebelling against their parents while growing their first pubic hairs who have see-through mustaches who haven't had a hair cut in a couple months and brush it off their forehead constantly, and reeeaaally want a tattoo and are considering getting huge holes put in their ears because they inwardly love jungle type paganism and tribal tattoos.  If you have graduated from high school, or are over the age of 17, and still imitate growling voices while you drive home from your job at BK and get shivers when a blast beat happens, you are a looooser.

I've never seen so much self-hatred in one place. You should maybe stop projecting your hatred of yourself onto other people, especially during Lent, dude. Prayer of St. Ephraim and all of that.
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« Reply #155 on: March 03, 2012, 03:03:06 AM »

I like symphonic metal and some heavy metal, but I'm definitely no afficionado. Personally, I'm more a fan of normal rock and roll & pop music. I also like country music.

Oh yes, and I like jpop and jrock--some songs of which have quite beautiful lyrics if you can either understand them or translate them.
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« Reply #156 on: March 03, 2012, 04:23:20 AM »

Yeah, God forbid people should do dumb things to enjoy themselves when they're 17.  Roll Eyes

I do dumb stuff all the time at 29. I've accepted my "loser" status and just go with it, it can be fun at times.

The Dude abides.
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« Reply #157 on: March 03, 2012, 07:49:05 AM »

From a lecture by Fr. Seraphim.  Please read the whole thing.  It's not that much.  

"The child who has been exposed from his earliest years to good classical music, and has seen his soul being developed by it, will not be nearly as tempted by the crude rhythm and message of rock and other contemporary forms of pseudo-music as someone who has grown up without a musical education. Such a musical education, as several of the Optina Elders have said, refines the soul and prepares it for the reception of spiritual impressions.

The child who has been educated in good literature, drama, and poetry and has felt their effect on his soul -- that is, has really enjoyed them -- will not easily become an addict of contemporary movies and television programs and cheap novels that devastate the soul and take it away from the Christian path.

The child who has learned to see beauty in classical painting and sculpture will not easily be drawn into the perversity of contemporary art or be attracted by the garish products of modern advertising and pornography.

The child who knows something of the history of the world, especially in Christian times, and how other people have lived and thought, what mistakes and pitfalls people have fallen into by departing from God and His commandments, and what glorious and influential lives they have lived when they were faithful to Him, will be discerning about the life and philosophy of our own times and will not be inclined to follow the first new philosophy or way of life he encounters ...

In general, the person who is well acquainted with the best products of secular culture -- which in the West almost always have definite religious and Christian overtones -- has a much better chance of leading a normal, fruitful Orthodox* life than someone who knows only the popular culture of today. One who is converted to Orthodoxy straight from 'rock' culture, and in general anyone who thinks he can combine Orthodoxy with that kind of culture -- has much suffering to go through and a difficult road in life before he can become a truly serious Orthodox Christian who is capable of handing on his faith to others. Without this suffering, without the awareness, Orthodox parents will raise their children to be devoured by the contemporary world."


Now this is an interesting quote since I find Metal music much more sophisticated and civilized than most of other popular music. Many rather popular Metal bands incorporate various elements from philosophy, history, native cultures, Classical music etc. into their music. Also, here in Finland Tuska festival i.e. the largest Metal festival in Nordic countries is a lot more peaceful than many other Music festivals that are arranged during summers.

So for me it seems that by Fr. Seraphim's standards Metal is a lot more Christian than various not-so-heavy genres of music. Still, for some reason we rarely see anyone arguing against Snoop Dogg and Lady Gaga.
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« Reply #158 on: March 03, 2012, 04:09:28 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

A kindred spirit. For me, the best are Through Silver in Blood and Times of Grace.

If I ever find myself in God's country, we'll have to have a smoke and listen to good ol' Neurosis.

Really, I was never into "Death Metal". I always liked what would come to be known as "Sludge Metal" or whatever.
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« Reply #159 on: March 03, 2012, 07:08:33 PM »

Purple demons are foolishness too, as well as metal, death metal, black metal, and the silly people that listen to it and imitate the growling noices and mimic blast beats with their hands, etc.  It is for boys rebelling against their parents while growing their first pubic hairs who have see-through mustaches who haven't had a hair cut in a couple months and brush it off their forehead constantly, and reeeaaally want a tattoo and are considering getting huge holes put in their ears because they inwardly love jungle type paganism and tribal tattoos.  If you have graduated from high school, or are over the age of 17, and still imitate growling voices while you drive home from your job at BK and get shivers when a blast beat happens, you are a looooser.

I've never seen so much self-hatred in one place. You should maybe stop projecting your hatred of yourself onto other people, especially during Lent, dude. Prayer of St. Ephraim and all of that.

I have no self hatred.  Are you a self appointed prophet?  How would you know if I have self hatred?  Lent or not, what I wrote is simply the truth, and it really bugs you that I hit the nail on the head.  However, it's a free world and I really don't care what you do or think.  I think death metal, rap, lady gaga and most of popular culture is completely stupid and a tremendous waste of time, so I don't waste my time on it.  That's my opinion.  I just find it really sad that many Orthodox people are materialistic and so involved in the culture of this world.  It's not what I expected from the Orthodox.  It is what I completely expect from protestants. 
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« Reply #160 on: March 03, 2012, 09:16:55 PM »

Can't say I've rebelled against my parents more then your usual kid, but I've since taken out my talons (ear spacers), I'd like to get my tats removed or covered (removal is as expensive as it is painful), and I've shaved my see through mustache and most of my beard. After nearly a year of bearding I've conceded that I can't grow one. I'm over 17, have never worked at a BK, but I Loves me some Metal. I am more then happy to be a loser.
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« Reply #161 on: March 04, 2012, 12:03:02 AM »

Can't say I've rebelled against my parents more then your usual kid, but I've since taken out my talons (ear spacers), I'd like to get my tats removed or covered (removal is as expensive as it is painful), and I've shaved my see through mustache and most of my beard. After nearly a year of bearding I've conceded that I can't grow one. I'm over 17, have never worked at a BK, but I Loves me some Metal. I am more then happy to be a loser.

One step at a time, I guess.  You're beginning to grow up.  You've removed the jungle pagan ear-hole makers, you have a desire to cover your Sharpie marks, but you still love metal and are more than happy to be a loser.  Why would anyone be happy to be a loser?  Anyway, try to listen to some metal in the confines of an Orthodox temple.  It just doesn't fit.  Or tell your mom how much you love her by growling at her in your best death metal voice.  Imagine metal in heaven; does not compute.  If we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places already, we should be living (or trying to live) with every aspect of our life in that perspective. 
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« Reply #162 on: March 04, 2012, 01:09:00 AM »

While I agree with the essence of what (I think) you're trying to say, stpaulphilip, there's a great deal that we do on earth that we presumably won't be doing in the next life. There might be a bit of throwing the baby out with the bath water going on here. While I have never been a fan of any kind of metal (and I certainly can't see it fitting in with churches or monasteries), there are a wide variety of things that aren't so immediately polarizing or identifiable as contrary to the faith that might nevertheless be enjoyed by people who still take their spiritual lives very seriously. So I think it is unfair to paint with such a broad brush. If a person who likes heavy metal music past when you yourself got out of that lifestyle is a "loser", then why aren't Orthodox people who like classical music, or historical military battle reenactments, or stamp collecting, or whatever dumb thing also "losers"? I have no reason to doubt that every one of our earthly pursuits is nothing to God, and certainly God should be everything to us, but while we are on our way to maturing spiritually (a far more important sign of "growing up" than taking out some earring, I think), what benefit is it to call those who are going at their own pace "losers"? You can't know where they are by looking at them. Steady and slow (as necessary) wins the race. If I had $1 for every person I knew who made major lifestyle changes that didn't result in their desired progress...well, I could at least pay for peacenprayer to their tattoos removed, and probably have a nice sum left over.
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« Reply #163 on: March 04, 2012, 01:44:36 AM »

While I agree with the essence of what (I think) you're trying to say, stpaulphilip, there's a great deal that we do on earth that we presumably won't be doing in the next life. There might be a bit of throwing the baby out with the bath water going on here. While I have never been a fan of any kind of metal (and I certainly can't see it fitting in with churches or monasteries), there are a wide variety of things that aren't so immediately polarizing or identifiable as contrary to the faith that might nevertheless be enjoyed by people who still take their spiritual lives very seriously. So I think it is unfair to paint with such a broad brush. If a person who likes heavy metal music past when you yourself got out of that lifestyle is a "loser", then why aren't Orthodox people who like classical music, or historical military battle reenactments, or stamp collecting, or whatever dumb thing also "losers"? I have no reason to doubt that every one of our earthly pursuits is nothing to God, and certainly God should be everything to us, but while we are on our way to maturing spiritually (a far more important sign of "growing up" than taking out some earring, I think), what benefit is it to call those who are going at their own pace "losers"? You can't know where they are by looking at them. Steady and slow (as necessary) wins the race. If I had $1 for every person I knew who made major lifestyle changes that didn't result in their desired progress...well, I could at least pay for peacenprayer to their tattoos removed, and probably have a nice sum left over.

Thank you for your reply, and you are right.  I don't mean to throw the baby out with the bath water.  I came from a death metal background, and for years lived a lifestyle that was according to that culture.  It is very hard for me to try and somehow make it "fit" with my Christianity, so I don't try to make it fit anymore.  Really, it was like chains falling off, letting it go.  It was years ago that I let it go, and so it is increasingly becoming more and more of a past experience, but it still surfaces in me by way of desire, memories, lyrics that are perpetually stuck in my head, as well as other things.  To me it is so foreign to Orthodox Christianity that it is like trying to blend oil and water.  But, I do admit I was too harsh.  I am a loser in many ways, and I apologize for offending others.  I am certainly not righteous and have no place to put down others.  Please forgive me. 
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« Reply #164 on: March 04, 2012, 02:32:55 AM »

I have no reason to doubt that every one of our earthly pursuits is nothing to God

This is getting dangerous.

God cares very much about our "earthly" pursuits. There ain't any other pursuits I know of. I mean we have had "lunar" pursuits and the like, but I am including them under "earthly".

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« Reply #165 on: March 04, 2012, 03:01:06 AM »

I mean in the realm of hobbies and the like, as is the topic of the thread. Sorry, I should have clarified. Of course God cares what we do and how we spend our time, but when it comes to things that are entirely subjective...well, I would hate to not get into heaven for having refused to do the macarena or what have you.
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« Reply #166 on: March 04, 2012, 04:05:40 AM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

A kindred spirit. For me, the best are Through Silver in Blood and Times of Grace.

Foolishness.  A waste of time. 

Be watchful; there are purple demons afoot.

Purple demons are foolishness too, as well as metal, death metal, black metal, and the silly people that listen to it and imitate the growling noices and mimic blast beats with their hands, etc.  It is for boys rebelling against their parents while growing their first pubic hairs who have see-through mustaches who haven't had a hair cut in a couple months and brush it off their forehead constantly, and reeeaaally want a tattoo and are considering getting huge holes put in their ears because they inwardly love jungle type paganism and tribal tattoos.  If you have graduated from high school, or are over the age of 17, and still imitate growling voices while you drive home from your job at BK and get shivers when a blast beat happens, you are a looooser. 

This is the single greatest post I have ever read. Well done sir.
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« Reply #167 on: March 04, 2012, 01:56:18 PM »

Anyway, try to listen to some metal in the confines of an Orthodox temple.  It just doesn't fit.

We pray for travelers by land, sea, and air but airplanes and boats don't fit too well in church either.  
 
Quote
Or tell your mom how much you love her by growling at her in your best death metal voice.

Yeah, it's much better to say it in Byzantine chant tone 1.

Quote
Imagine metal in heaven; does not compute.  If we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places already, we should be living (or trying to live) with every aspect of our life in that perspective.  

So I assume you'll still be calling people losers on OC.net in heaven?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 02:19:04 PM by Iconodule » Logged

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« Reply #168 on: March 04, 2012, 02:07:59 PM »

Purple demons are foolishness too, as well as metal, death metal, black metal, and the silly people that listen to it and imitate the growling noices and mimic blast beats with their hands, etc.  It is for boys rebelling against their parents while growing their first pubic hairs who have see-through mustaches who haven't had a hair cut in a couple months and brush it off their forehead constantly, and reeeaaally want a tattoo and are considering getting huge holes put in their ears because they inwardly love jungle type paganism and tribal tattoos.  If you have graduated from high school, or are over the age of 17, and still imitate growling voices while you drive home from your job at BK and get shivers when a blast beat happens, you are a looooser.

I've never seen so much self-hatred in one place. You should maybe stop projecting your hatred of yourself onto other people, especially during Lent, dude. Prayer of St. Ephraim and all of that.

I have no self hatred.  Are you a self appointed prophet?  How would you know if I have self hatred?  Lent or not, what I wrote is simply the truth, and it really bugs you that I hit the nail on the head.  However, it's a free world and I really don't care what you do or think.  I think death metal, rap, lady gaga and most of popular culture is completely stupid and a tremendous waste of time, so I don't waste my time on it.  That's my opinion.  I just find it really sad that many Orthodox people are materialistic and so involved in the culture of this world.  It's not what I expected from the Orthodox.  It is what I completely expect from protestants. 

Ever hear that bit about straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel? Congratulations, you are on the gnat-free diet.
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« Reply #169 on: March 04, 2012, 02:10:48 PM »

Uh, I like drums.  Huh
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« Reply #170 on: March 04, 2012, 02:17:15 PM »

Uh, I like drums.  Huh

Uh oh! Time for confession!
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« Reply #171 on: March 04, 2012, 02:24:18 PM »

Yes, maybe it is.
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« Reply #172 on: March 04, 2012, 02:43:56 PM »

I'm not really a fan of regular death metal, but I do like melodic death metal (death metal with classic metal melodies). When I look for extreme metal, I try to find melodic death metal bands that has clean vocals; Scar Symmetry is a good example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdeurUwz66A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVxkNFIxnl4&feature=related


Personally, I'm more of a power metal fan. DragonForce and Sonata Arctica for the win.
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« Reply #173 on: March 05, 2012, 11:16:51 PM »

Anyway, try to listen to some metal in the confines of an Orthodox temple.  It just doesn't fit.

We pray for travelers by land, sea, and air but airplanes and boats don't fit too well in church either.  
 
Quote
Or tell your mom how much you love her by growling at her in your best death metal voice.

Yeah, it's much better to say it in Byzantine chant tone 1.

Quote
Imagine metal in heaven; does not compute.  If we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places already, we should be living (or trying to live) with every aspect of our life in that perspective.  

So I assume you'll still be calling people losers on OC.net in heaven?

Wow.  You should have walked with Plato and Aristotle because the depth of your reply is astounding.  I can't imagine what you'll be able to do when you turn 14. 
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« Reply #174 on: March 05, 2012, 11:18:39 PM »

Purple demons are foolishness too, as well as metal, death metal, black metal, and the silly people that listen to it and imitate the growling noices and mimic blast beats with their hands, etc.  It is for boys rebelling against their parents while growing their first pubic hairs who have see-through mustaches who haven't had a hair cut in a couple months and brush it off their forehead constantly, and reeeaaally want a tattoo and are considering getting huge holes put in their ears because they inwardly love jungle type paganism and tribal tattoos.  If you have graduated from high school, or are over the age of 17, and still imitate growling voices while you drive home from your job at BK and get shivers when a blast beat happens, you are a looooser.

I've never seen so much self-hatred in one place. You should maybe stop projecting your hatred of yourself onto other people, especially during Lent, dude. Prayer of St. Ephraim and all of that.

I have no self hatred.  Are you a self appointed prophet?  How would you know if I have self hatred?  Lent or not, what I wrote is simply the truth, and it really bugs you that I hit the nail on the head.  However, it's a free world and I really don't care what you do or think.  I think death metal, rap, lady gaga and most of popular culture is completely stupid and a tremendous waste of time, so I don't waste my time on it.  That's my opinion.  I just find it really sad that many Orthodox people are materialistic and so involved in the culture of this world.  It's not what I expected from the Orthodox.  It is what I completely expect from protestants. 

Ever hear that bit about straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel? Congratulations, you are on the gnat-free diet.

Your mother should have spanked you more often.  Brat. 
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« Reply #175 on: March 05, 2012, 11:22:53 PM »

At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

A kindred spirit. For me, the best are Through Silver in Blood and Times of Grace.

Foolishness.  A waste of time. 

Be watchful; there are purple demons afoot.

Purple demons are foolishness too, as well as metal, death metal, black metal, and the silly people that listen to it and imitate the growling noices and mimic blast beats with their hands, etc.  It is for boys rebelling against their parents while growing their first pubic hairs who have see-through mustaches who haven't had a hair cut in a couple months and brush it off their forehead constantly, and reeeaaally want a tattoo and are considering getting huge holes put in their ears because they inwardly love jungle type paganism and tribal tattoos.  If you have graduated from high school, or are over the age of 17, and still imitate growling voices while you drive home from your job at BK and get shivers when a blast beat happens, you are a looooser. 

This is the single greatest post I have ever read. Well done sir.

I thank you kind sir. 
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« Reply #176 on: March 07, 2012, 11:00:08 PM »

stpaulphilip, what do you think of power metal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i7qZxICwgQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jgrCKhxE1s&feature=relmfu
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« Reply #177 on: March 08, 2012, 01:51:44 AM »

Quote
Wow.  You should have walked with Plato and Aristotle because the depth of your reply is astounding
I don't know which part of this sentence is supposed to be sarcastic.
 
At one time, if you asked my religion, I would have said Neurosis.

A kindred spirit. For me, the best are Through Silver in Blood and Times of Grace.

If I ever find myself in God's country, we'll have to have a smoke and listen to good ol' Neurosis.

Really, I was never into "Death Metal". I always liked what would come to be known as "Sludge Metal" or whatever.
The only metal fans worse than people who argue about subgenres are the people who named them.
I have no reason to doubt that every one of our earthly pursuits is nothing to God

This is getting dangerous.

God cares very much about our "earthly" pursuits. There ain't any other pursuits I know of. I mean we have had "lunar" pursuits and the like, but I am including them under "earthly".


Just don't let Buzz Aldrin hear you say that.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 01:52:49 AM by That person » Logged

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« Reply #178 on: March 20, 2012, 08:10:51 PM »

Uh, I like drums.  Huh

White metal drums or black metal ones? The answer to this is crucial!  Grin
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« Reply #179 on: April 09, 2012, 04:36:07 PM »

I apologize for seeming to be self-righteous, if indeed I did.  I probably did.  I understand youth, and I know that many metal musicians are extremely talented.  Most are far more talented than pop artists and the junk you hear on the radio.  I am only opposed to the aggression it causes psychologically and the way kids like to resemble jungle people (plates in lips and rings around necks are next I tell ya). 
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Isaiah 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
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