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Author Topic: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?  (Read 38562 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2010, 09:12:20 AM »

Yes, both WR priests of the Antiochian Church in this country routinely commune Catholics  and Anglicans.

Yet another description of a completely different approach:
Quote
How to Participate Without Receiving Communion

Communion is regarded as the ultimate expression of unity between those who share the faith, discipline and order of the Orthodox Church. Accordingly, it is given only to Orthodox Christians. Other persons attending the service, such as inquirers, visitors, catechumens, or family members who are not Orthodox, may come forward at the time of communion to receive a blessing. Orthodox may also do this when, for whatever reason, they are not taking the sacrament.

To receive a blessing, come up to the altar at the proper time, along with everyone else. Fold your arms across the chest in X-fashion. In the Western tradition, this indicates that you are not receiving the sacrament. When the priest reaches you, he will give you a blessing, making the sign of the cross on your head. After you receive the blessing, return to your seat.

It goes without saying that one should pay absolutely no attention to who is receiving the sacrament and who is abstaining.

Non-Orthodox may also receive the eulogiae or pain benit. This is bread which has been blessed, but not consecrated (Eastern Rite parishioners may recognize a similarity to the Antidoron distributed at Byzantine services). Dating back at least to the 6th century, the custom of giving out blessed bread to non-communicants was prevalent in England, France and Germany. The English Sarum liturgy, an inspiration for the Orthodox liturgy of St. Tikhon, contains a specific prayer to bless the eulogiae. Western rite parishes use this prayer today. The blessed bread custom survived in some locations into the 20th century, but had largely died out until its restoration to the West through our Archdiocese's Western Orthodox parishes. It is a kind and helpful custom for today, since persons who do not share our understanding of communion might otherwise feel uncomfortable at not being able to receive the sacrament.
Source: http://www.westernorthodox.com/customs
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« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2010, 09:16:20 PM »

I meant 'whitest". Mea culpa.

I'm not sure what skin color has to do with things, but no, it isn't.  The bishop of Maryland, for example, is the Right Reverend Eugene Taylor Sutton:  http://www.ang-md.org/bishops.php for a picture.

Absolom Jones was the first African American Anglican priest in 1804.
http://www.episcopalarchives.org/Afro-Anglican_history/exhibit/leadership/jones.php

Washington, DC had the Rt. Rev. John T. Walker as a suffragan bishop, then it's bishop co-adjutor and final the diocesan bishop (1971-1989)

http://www.episcopalarchives.org/Afro-Anglican_history/exhibit/leadership/walker.php

Two areas of the US that have a large percentage of episcopalians are on reservations out west and we have a Diocese of Navajoland.

On a global scale here is a photo of the primates of the various members of the Anglican Communion from a meeting in 2005, which I've posted a link to before:
http://www.aco.org/_userfiles/Image/full/acns3945f.jpg

And the Archbishop of York at present is the The Most Reverend and Right Honourable Dr John Sentamu, who was born in Uganda:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sentamu

It is said that the "average" Anglican is an African woman in her 20s-30s with children going by the various factors of age, sex, location, etc.

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« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2010, 03:41:17 AM »

Setback for Western Rite in England.  WR Services have ceased at the Russian London cathedral

Notification is here
http://elyforum.yuku.com/reply/2495/t/Western-Rite-in-England.html#reply-2495





Today (18 January) is the commemoration of St. Dicuil of Lure
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints

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« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2010, 03:50:26 AM »

Setback for Western Rite in England.  WR Services have ceased at the Russian London cathedral

A shame.  Sad  "'undermine' their service", what a joke.
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« Reply #94 on: January 18, 2010, 03:55:14 AM »

Setback for Western Rite in England.  WR Services have ceased at the Russian London cathedral

A shame.  Sad  "'undermine' their service", what a joke.


Is it possible that the WR community and its leaders in London have offended the bishop and the cathedral clergy in some way?   One remembers that the leaders of the Anglo-Catholic Movement prided themselves on their pro-active (read aggressive) attitude towards bishops in getting Roman customs into the Anglican Church

WR English people would be aware of this much vaunted bolshie attitude by Anglo-Catholics and may be adopting a similar atttitude in promoting WR?

Well, it's a thought.....
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« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2010, 03:21:00 AM »

I think I will attend a WR liturgy next Sunday.  I'll let u guys know how it goes.
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« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2010, 09:50:09 PM »

Yes, both WR priests of the Antiochian Church in this country routinely commune Catholics  and Anglicans.  I have witnessed this myself and I have been present when one of them was reprimanded by the Greek Metropolitan for doing this.

Quote
I've seen both happen in Eastern Rite Orthodox Churches.

How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.
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« Reply #97 on: January 20, 2010, 10:53:36 PM »

How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.

Don't get discouraged by hearsay.
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« Reply #98 on: January 20, 2010, 11:37:59 PM »

Quote from: Andrew21091 link=topic=24765.msg400269#msg400269
How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.

America and other non-Orthodox countries are the only places where you have such a choice to begin with. If you lived in an Orthodox country, you would be stuck with the local jurisdiction. The 15 or so local Orthodox churches all make up one Church of Christ.A problem in the Church of Antioch is a concern for the whole Church regardless of which jurisdiction you happen to belong to.
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« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2010, 12:11:27 AM »

So what ever happened to the situation in Evansville?
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« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2010, 12:28:49 AM »

So what ever happened to the situation in Evansville?

Here's a link to their website but it doesn't really have much info at all about them other than that Evansville is going to have a western rite Orthodox church:
http://www.evansvillewesternorthodox.org/

The news article about Evansville having eastern and western rite parishes used to be on the Antiochian western rite section of the Archdiocese website but for some reason they took it off.
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« Reply #101 on: February 16, 2010, 05:55:24 PM »

Quote from: Andrew21091 link=topic=24765.msg400269#msg400269
How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.

America and other non-Orthodox countries are the only places where you have such a choice to begin with. If you lived in an Orthodox country, you would be stuck with the local jurisdiction. The 15 or so local Orthodox churches all make up one Church of Christ.A problem in the Church of Antioch is a concern for the whole Church regardless of which jurisdiction you happen to belong to.

Very well said Orthodox11.
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« Reply #102 on: February 16, 2010, 06:09:27 PM »

Yes, both WR priests of the Antiochian Church in this country routinely commune Catholics  and Anglicans.  I have witnessed this myself and I have been present when one of them was reprimanded by the Greek Metropolitan for doing this.

Quote
I've seen both happen in Eastern Rite Orthodox Churches.

How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.

I think we need to keep in mind, before we start super-correcting ourselves, that such problems are not new to the Church; whether from isolation, ignorance, or willful disobedience, these things have probably happened throughout the Church's history but have not destroyed her.
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« Reply #103 on: February 16, 2010, 08:07:44 PM »

Quote from: Andrew21091 link=topic=24765.msg400269#msg400269
How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.

America and other non-Orthodox countries are the only places where you have such a choice to begin with. If you lived in an Orthodox country, you would be stuck with the local jurisdiction. The 15 or so local Orthodox churches all make up one Church of Christ.A problem in the Church of Antioch is a concern for the whole Church regardless of which jurisdiction you happen to belong to.

What do you mean?
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« Reply #104 on: February 16, 2010, 08:23:43 PM »

What do you mean?

I mean that a problem in the Church of Antioch is a problem for the whole Orthodox Church, just as a problem in the churches of Constantinople, or Moscow, or Alexandria is the problem of the entire Orthodox Church.

Jumping from one jurisdiction to another because of a particular local problem 1) undermines the universality of the Church, that all are members of the same Body of Christ, and 2) is possible only in countries where there exist overlapping jurisdictions in breach of the canons.
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« Reply #105 on: February 16, 2010, 08:32:10 PM »

What do you mean?

I mean that a problem in the Church of Antioch is a problem for the whole Orthodox Church, just as a problem in the churches of Constantinople, or Moscow, or Alexandria is the problem of the entire Orthodox Church.

Jumping from one jurisdiction to another because of a particular local problem 1) undermines the universality of the Church, that all are members of the same Body of Christ, and 2) is possible only in countries where there exist overlapping jurisdictions in breach of the canons.
Ah, gotcha.
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« Reply #106 on: March 03, 2010, 02:51:16 PM »

The Evansville Western Rite Mission is now defunct:  http://www.evansvillewesternorthodox.org/
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« Reply #107 on: March 03, 2010, 04:14:09 PM »

The Evansville Western Rite Mission is now defunct:  http://www.evansvillewesternorthodox.org/


Do you know what happened?
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« Reply #108 on: March 10, 2010, 11:50:35 PM »

The Evansville Western Rite Mission is now defunct:  http://www.evansvillewesternorthodox.org/


Do you know what happened?

Does anyone know what happened? Beuller?... Beuller?...Beuller?...
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« Reply #109 on: March 21, 2010, 11:56:39 PM »


Sunday, March 21, 2010
New Western Rite Abbot

I discovered on Tuesday, March 16, 2010, that Fr. Hieromonk David (Pierce) has been confirmed in the rank of Abbot by Metropolitan Hilarion, first hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Dom David's community, formerly named Holyrood after the Holy Cross, now bears the name "Dormition Monastery."

Source :: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2010, 05:29:50 AM »

I think this should be a top priority for the Orthodox Church today.

Unless the Patriarchs in power think converting Rome to Orthodoxy is easier...

K

Why? What's wrong with the Eastern Rite?

Considering that the OCA's current Bishop is a convert from the Episcopalian/Anglican Church (as are many other Orthodox clergy in the US) it's obvious that a Westerner can adopt an Eastern mindset quite nicely.
dont know about that. ive brought a few catholic friends to liturgy and why they all agree its beautiful they still cant get over the fact that we stand in liturgy  most of the time. catholics like to sit down a lot for their church services.  even for the gospel.  they also get dizzy from too much crossing & bowing.  and most of them dont really even know how to cross. they do it backwards.  lolz!

they do love the theotokos tho. so i guess thats cool. ^_^
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« Reply #111 on: March 22, 2010, 05:37:22 AM »

Yes, both WR priests of the Antiochian Church in this country routinely commune Catholics  and Anglicans.  I have witnessed this myself and I have been present when one of them was reprimanded by the Greek Metropolitan for doing this.
wow. perhaps its because catholic churches give communion to whoever gets in line?  i do think this is strictly an american phenomena.  i mean the catholic priest announces that only baptized roman catholics can recieve communion but then everybody gets in live regardless if they r protestant, buddhist, whatever.

that would never happen in the greek church. our deacon asks you beforehand what your baptismal name is.
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« Reply #112 on: March 22, 2010, 07:17:24 AM »


Sunday, March 21, 2010
New Western Rite Abbot

I discovered on Tuesday, March 16, 2010, that Fr. Hieromonk David (Pierce) has been confirmed in the rank of Abbot by Metropolitan Hilarion, first hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Dom David's community, formerly named Holyrood after the Holy Cross, now bears the name "Dormition Monastery."

Source :: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/


Do you happen to know where this monastery is at? I thought the only western rite monastery was Christminster in Canada.
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« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2010, 07:34:08 AM »

I think this should be a top priority for the Orthodox Church today.

Unless the Patriarchs in power think converting Rome to Orthodoxy is easier...

K

Why? What's wrong with the Eastern Rite?

Considering that the OCA's current Bishop is a convert from the Episcopalian/Anglican Church (as are many other Orthodox clergy in the US) it's obvious that a Westerner can adopt an Eastern mindset quite nicely.
dont know about that. ive brought a few catholic friends to liturgy and why they all agree its beautiful they still cant get over the fact that we stand in liturgy  most of the time. catholics like to sit down a lot for their church services. 

This is a case of Catholics absorbing the Protestant mindset; before the Reformation, Western churches didn't have pews either.
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« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2010, 07:35:12 AM »

Do you happen to know where this monastery is at?

Jacksonville, Florida, US.

I thought the only western rite monastery was Christminster in Canada.

There is also St Petroc's in Tasmania which has a few monastic and/or missionary dependencies in Australia, two in England and one in the US (Holyrood Hermitage).

Quote
NEW ABBOT

Wednesday 10th March 2010: His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, Primate of ROCOR has issued a proclamation, naming Fr. David (Pierce) of Holyrood Hermitage as Abbot of the Monastery of the Holy Dormition of Our Lady of Mount Royal. The proclamation names Abbot Augustine (Whitfield) as the Abbot Emeritus. Abbot Augustine remains in hospital under ongoing care. Mount Royal was originally received into Orthodoxy in 1962 by Bishop Dositheus.
Source: http://orthodoxchristianwest.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2010, 11:17:57 AM »

Western Rite Orthodoxy is not thriving and neither is Eastern Orthodoxy thriving.

First people no longer search for Truth and that is the Main reason.

Second what is shown as Orthodoxy here in the United States and Western Countries is built for Western
Civilization and is a far cry from what True Eastern Orthodoxy is. Entirely different mindset. I do not have all the answers but am searching diligently trying to find that "mindset".

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« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2010, 03:23:34 PM »

This is a case of Catholics absorbing the Protestant mindset; before the Reformation, Western churches didn't have pews either.
What would you say are the objections to having pews or the benefits of no pews in the Church?
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« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2010, 03:49:36 PM »

This is a case of Catholics absorbing the Protestant mindset; before the Reformation, Western churches didn't have pews either.
What would you say are the objections to having pews or the benefits of no pews in the Church?

There is an entire thread dedicated to pews found in the main directory of the Liturgy section that you will need to go search for if you really care about this issue. Please read that entire thread and then post only if you think you can add something to the discussion. No pew talk in here, take it to that thread.

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« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2010, 04:23:31 PM »

There is also St Petroc's in Tasmania which has a few monastic and/or missionary dependencies in Australia, two in England and one in the US (Holyrood Hermitage).


I am confused.  How can Abbot Dom David of Holyrood be a dependency of an Australian monastery and subordinate to an Australian hieromonk Fr Michael (Wood)?  It seems very odd that an abbot in the States would be subordinated by the First Hierarch to a simple hieromonk in Australia? Is Abbot David subordinate to Hieromonk Michael as concerns matters in Abbot David's monastery of Holyrood but superior to him as abbot of Mount Royal?

Quote
NEW ABBOT

Wednesday 10th March 2010: His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, Primate of ROCOR has issued a proclamation, naming Fr. David (Pierce) of Holyrood Hermitage as Abbot of the Monastery of the Holy Dormition of Our Lady of Mount Royal. The proclamation names Abbot Augustine (Whitfield) as the Abbot Emeritus. Abbot Augustine remains in hospital under ongoing care. Mount Royal was originally received into Orthodoxy in 1962 by Bishop Dositheus.
Source: http://orthodoxchristianwest.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2010, 04:50:29 PM »

I am confused.  How can Abbot Dom David of Holyrood be a dependency of an Australian monastery and subordinate to an Australian hieromonk Fr Michael (Wood)?

Saint Petroc Monastery is composed of several separate semi-eremitic houses, each occupied by a Hieromonk.

I guess that it was Fr Michael who guided Fr David to leave the Milan Synod and join the ROCOR. I assume that Fr David decided to follow St Petroc's liturgical standards and simply to become a member of the monastery.

It seems very odd that an abbot in the States would be subordinated by the First Hierarch to a simple hieromonk in Australia?

Well, the website of St Petroc's Monastery confirms that:
Quote
The original [St Petroc's] house began formally in 1993, originally with two semi-eremitic hieromonks. This developed over time to two separate houses, Saint Petroc House in Cascades and Holyrood Hermitage in Avondale [Jacksonville, Florida, US].
Source: http://stpetrocmonastery.blogspot.com

Is Abbot David subordinate to Hieromonk Michael as concerns matters in Abbot David's monastery of Holyrood but superior to him as abbot of Mount Royal?

Holyrood is/was just a hermitage and a part of St Petroc's Monastery. I don't know what the situation really is, but I guess that now Holyrood and Mount Royal became one entity which is either a part of St Petroc's (and answers to Fr Michael) or an independent body (and answers directly to the Metropolitan).
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« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2010, 04:57:00 PM »


Dear Michal,

As I thought, Holyrood and Fr David are not a dependency of Australia and Hieromonk Fr Michael. This has been confirmed now by Father Abbot David who writes that when he was received into the Russian Church Abroad Holyrood was constituted as a cell of Mount Royal monastery (under Abbot Augustine Whitfield.)

With Fr David's elevation to Abbot last week the First Hierarch Metropolitan Hilarion has appointed him Abbot of both Mount Royal and, of course, Holyrood which is a dependency of Mount Royal.

Here is what Abbot David wrote to clarify this....



Actually the Monastery consists of Fr. Augustine (in nursing care), myself, and a postulate, Br. George.  We also have a married deacon who attends on Sundays and Feasts along with his family, along with the occasional visitor.

The reason behind the multiplicity of names for something so small is an accident of our history.  In my previous jurisdiction I began with a house-chapel called "St. Augustine of Canterbury Mission".  We briefly moved into rented space, but due to financial concerns ended up back in the house.  About 2001 Hiero-schema-monk Brendan (Williams) donated a relic of the Holy Cross.  In honor of this the Chapel was re-dedicated as "Holy Cross" or "Holy Rood".  "St. Augustine of Canterbury" was retained as a name for a future non-monastic mission that never materialized. Dormition of Our Lady (of Mt. Royal) Monastery, dates back to the early 1960s when it was received into the Russian Orthodox Church and Dom Augustine (Whitfield) blessed as its Abbot. 

Holyrood had been under the spiritual direction  of Abbot Augustine for many years, (as well as helping him as his health declined).  Upon our reception into ROCOR 2 years ago we were considered by the Metropolitan to be a Cell of "Mt. Royal". 

So, in reality the situation is thus:

1) The monastery is "Dormition of Our Lady (of Mt. Royal)".  The last part is in parenthesis since it denotes a geographical location no longer applicable.

2) The small Chapel is still "Holyrood" chapel owing to our having a Relic of the True Cross. "Dormition Chapel" was the name of Fr. Augustine's (now defunct) Oratory.

3) At the present time we have no permanent monastic buildings.  Fr. Augustine is in nursing care, I and Br. George continue to work secular jobs to keep a roof over our heads.
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« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2010, 05:05:33 PM »

Interesting. St Petroc Monastery's website (http://stpetrocmonastery.blogspot.com) claims otherwise. There must have been some misunderstanding on the way which resulted in this a little bit confusing situation.
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« Reply #122 on: March 22, 2010, 05:08:25 PM »

[Well, the website of St Petroc's Monastery confirms that:
Quote
The original [St Petroc's] house began formally in 1993, originally with two semi-eremitic hieromonks. This developed over time to two separate houses, Saint Petroc House in Cascades and Holyrood Hermitage in Avondale [Jacksonville, Florida, US].
Source: http://stpetrocmonastery.blogspot.com

This is a bit of a porky.  Inexplicable but a porky nonetheless.

1. At the time it was first written on the Internet Fr David (then Fr Cuthbert and owner of Holyrood Hermitage) was a member of the Synod of Milan and under the juridisdiction of the Milan Archbishop John LoBue of New York.   I think we can rest assured that NO monastery of any uncanonical Church had simultaneous dual membership in the Synod of Milan and the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. That sounds like a nightmare.   Shocked 

2.  At the time of the reception of Fr David (and his Holyrood hermitage) into the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad the Metropolitan constituted Holyrood as a cell of Mount Royal under Abbot Augustine.  The Metropolitan did not assign Holyrood as a dependency of Fr Hieromonk Michael.

Why Fr Michael is making this claim is a bit of a puzzle.
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« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2010, 07:09:04 PM »

Quote
This is a bit of a porky

Translation for those who may not be familiar with "rhyming slang" which is common in British and, to some degree, Australian and New Zealand English: Porky is a short form of pork pie. Pork pie rhymes with lie, though, as I understand it, to tell a porky is to tell a white lie.
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« Reply #124 on: March 22, 2010, 07:19:30 PM »

I guess the reason why the Western rites are not growing is that their are only so many former Anglicans seeking to convert to theOrthodox Church at this time.
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« Reply #125 on: March 22, 2010, 07:40:01 PM »

The Evansville Western Rite Mission is now defunct:  http://www.evansvillewesternorthodox.org/


Do you know what happened?

Does anyone know what happened? Beuller?... Beuller?...Beuller?...

I don't know what happened in this instance but the lead clergyman for Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdiocese is a XXXXXXXXXXX of the regime we have in place now. IF you listen to his speech at the Palm Springs in convention in 2009 you will hear why western rite
is going nowhere in our archdiocese. It is very sad and pathetic.

Harsh language removed. Please show proper respect for priest.
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« Reply #126 on: March 22, 2010, 09:40:26 PM »

Like I've said before in regards to the Western rite, If people were interested in it then there would be a demand for it's further expansion, but there is not. A good reason is that people who embrace Orthodoxy want to be Eastern Orthodox, not Orthodox who use an Anglican rite.  If they wanted to be Anglican then they would probably be in some type of Anglican jurisdiction instead of OC.  Since Orthodoxy does not have a definitive statement on the invalidity of Anglican orders, there would not be as a big a demand among Anglicans to cross over to the Church (Unlike the RC's who do deny that Anglican orders are valid). 

I wish all the luck in the world to those who wish to foster the Western rite usage, as long as they don't try to force it on to people who have no desire to practice it simply because those people are deemed to come from a "Western" back round.

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« Reply #127 on: November 29, 2010, 04:07:55 PM »

Can a "low church" liturgy be developed in Orthodoxy?

As a convert from a determinedly 'low church' denomination, 'low church liturgy' sounds like an oxymoron to me. But what elements of low church worship are you thinking could be adopted into something Orthodox would recognize as worship?

And yes, I very much resemble GiC's point. I was born in America, descended from generations of devout American Protestants, and I usually stay out of Western-rite threads because I don't understand the impulse at all. To most of the Americans I know (including the Episcopalians and even a majority of the Roman Catholics under the age of 40), the kind of 'smells and bells' high church Anglicanism one occasionally sees on TV and which seems to be the 'type' of worship Western-riters are trying to integrate with Orthodoxy is just as alien and incomprehensible as a liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (assuming both are in English).

At least with the Eastern rite, we are generally surrounded and led by individuals who have practiced the rite all their life after receiving it from individuals who had practiced it all their life who had received, etc. The fact that Western rite isn't actually the BCP Rite, or the Tridentine rite, and its certainly not a pre-schism or an Eastern rite, results in it feeling somewhat like the 'pick and choose your taste' religion which was often the reason we started the journey that led to Orthodoxy in the first place.

(Sorry, I don't question the authority of our bishops to create a Western rite, and if it's been duly authorized by the responsible bishop I don't consider it my business how anyone else chooses to worship, but I think GiC captured the answer to the thread title so well that I wished to back it up with the POV of a 'typical' Western convert).

It is the pick and choose of the western-rite that I cannot appreciate.  The Anglican BCP mass from 1549 - nearly 600 years after the western church schismed into heterodoxy is called Sarum by some and with some tweaking is made Orthodox.  I don'[t doubt that it can be made Orthodox vut it was 600 years non-canonical before it was written because the western church was in schism and heresy. Then we have the "English mass" which is another BCP version, a Tridentine mass which is really the English missal mass tweaked........ and none of these have been the shared experience of bishops, priests and people for anything less than the last 50 years because the early 20th century western rite collapsed, the French Orthodox Church embraced schism and Rome till a few came back via the Serbian Church....

To me the western-rite is false not because the history of western Orthodoxy is anything less than glorious - we all commemorate the western Orthodox saints but because it has had no real diocesan and parish life, no lived experience, generation after generation.  As a westerner there is a certain humility in coming to Christ in the eastern rite - an admission that the Anglicans and Romans got it wrong, and while I appreciate the beauty of the Book of Common Prayer offices etc, that does not make them right - or a rite for western Orthodox today.
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« Reply #128 on: November 29, 2010, 05:41:19 PM »

Why are you replying to old threads?  Don't get me wrong, your mis-information is highly entertaining!  It's just odd. 
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« Reply #129 on: November 29, 2010, 05:49:09 PM »

It is the pick and choose of the western-rite that I cannot appreciate.
Same here. But a quick correction:
Quote
The Anglican BCP mass from 1549 - nearly 600 years after the western church schismed into heterodoxy is called Sarum by some and with some tweaking is made Orthodox.
This is incorrect. The Anglican BCP 1549 was principally patterned after the Sarum rite, but was edited in distinctly Protestant ways (the 1559 edit would take it much further).

The Sarum rite itself was founded by the Norman Bishop of Salisbury, Osmund, in the 11th century (IIRC, in the 1170s). Though England was clearly politically on the side of Rome at this point (thanks in part to the Norman invasion), the full east/west schism was not complete at that time.

England also had several other Catholic local uses (the Hereford, the York, etc.) which existed until the Act of Uniformity enforced the prayerbook across the nation. If you read the preface to the BCP, it explicitly states that its goal was to suppress all the old local uses. This was Cranmer's way of enforcing theology, by controlling liturgy.

All of that said, attempting to 'Dox the old liturgies is a little funny because [IIRC] we don't have surviving copies of the entire thing, at least in regard to the Sarum.

Perhaps a bit more than anyone cared to know.

Quote
I don't doubt that it can be made Orthodox vut it was 600 years non-canonical before it was written because the western church was in schism and heresy. Then we have the "English mass" which is another BCP version, a Tridentine mass which is really the English missal mass tweaked........ and none of these have been the shared experience of bishops, priests and people for anything less than the last 50 years because the early 20th century western rite collapsed, the French Orthodox Church embraced schism and Rome till a few came back via the Serbian Church....
More of the same problems I have, but...

Quote
To me the western-rite is false not because the history of western Orthodoxy is anything less than glorious - we all commemorate the western Orthodox saints but because it has had no real diocesan and parish life, no lived experience, generation after generation.  As a westerner there is a certain humility in coming to Christ in the eastern rite - an admission that the Anglicans and Romans got it wrong, and while I appreciate the beauty of the Book of Common Prayer offices etc, that does not make them right - or a rite for western Orthodox today.
I can't go this far. I may not really be a fan of just cleaning up their liturgies, but then I am not a bishop. I would not have a problem attending a WRO church if that was what was available with no Byzantine or Russian Rite around. The sacraments are still valid, even if I don't care for Anglican liturgy.
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« Reply #130 on: November 29, 2010, 05:52:39 PM »

lack of organization/unification perhaps?
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« Reply #131 on: November 29, 2010, 05:53:02 PM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has some thoughts relative to the Western Rite mission work which is being attempted in the United Kingdom.

Some Thoughts on the "Western Rite" In Orthodoxy
http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html
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« Reply #132 on: November 29, 2010, 06:00:09 PM »

Those thoughts are almost 15 years old, fyi.  And speaking to a quite specific situation in Great Britain.
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« Reply #133 on: November 29, 2010, 06:00:44 PM »

Can a "low church" liturgy be developed in Orthodoxy?

As a convert from a determinedly 'low church' denomination, 'low church liturgy' sounds like an oxymoron to me. But what elements of low church worship are you thinking could be adopted into something Orthodox would recognize as worship?

And yes, I very much resemble GiC's point. I was born in America, descended from generations of devout American Protestants, and I usually stay out of Western-rite threads because I don't understand the impulse at all. To most of the Americans I know (including the Episcopalians and even a majority of the Roman Catholics under the age of 40), the kind of 'smells and bells' high church Anglicanism one occasionally sees on TV and which seems to be the 'type' of worship Western-riters are trying to integrate with Orthodoxy is just as alien and incomprehensible as a liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (assuming both are in English).

At least with the Eastern rite, we are generally surrounded and led by individuals who have practiced the rite all their life after receiving it from individuals who had practiced it all their life who had received, etc. The fact that Western rite isn't actually the BCP Rite, or the Tridentine rite, and its certainly not a pre-schism or an Eastern rite, results in it feeling somewhat like the 'pick and choose your taste' religion which was often the reason we started the journey that led to Orthodoxy in the first place.

(Sorry, I don't question the authority of our bishops to create a Western rite, and if it's been duly authorized by the responsible bishop I don't consider it my business how anyone else chooses to worship, but I think GiC captured the answer to the thread title so well that I wished to back it up with the POV of a 'typical' Western convert).

It is the pick and choose of the western-rite that I cannot appreciate.  The Anglican BCP mass from 1549 - nearly 600 years after the western church schismed into heterodoxy is called Sarum by some and with some tweaking is made Orthodox.  I don'[t doubt that it can be made Orthodox vut it was 600 years non-canonical before it was written because the western church was in schism and heresy. Then we have the "English mass" which is another BCP version, a Tridentine mass which is really the English missal mass tweaked........ and none of these have been the shared experience of bishops, priests and people for anything less than the last 50 years because the early 20th century western rite collapsed, the French Orthodox Church embraced schism and Rome till a few came back via the Serbian Church....

To me the western-rite is false not because the history of western Orthodoxy is anything less than glorious - we all commemorate the western Orthodox saints but because it has had no real diocesan and parish life, no lived experience, generation after generation.  As a westerner there is a certain humility in coming to Christ in the eastern rite - an admission that the Anglicans and Romans got it wrong, and while I appreciate the beauty of the Book of Common Prayer offices etc, that does not make them right - or a rite for western Orthodox today.

Here is some reality for your confusion.

Quote
There are certainly some who very imperfectly under stand what is meant by these old Uses of the Church of England ; they have often remarked the passage which I have quoted from the Preface to the Prayer Book, and would be glad to learn something about it. Wheatley and Shepherd, authors generally appealed to, pass over without remark " the Preface "; the latter however 1 in his Introduction does say, that " it is deserving of notice, that hitherto there had not been in England any one service established by public authority for the general use of the Church. In the southern parts of the island, the Offices according to the Use of Sarum, and in the northern, those of York, were generally followed. In South Wales the Offices of Hereford were adopted, and in North Wales, those of Bangor, "; and so he passes on. Nor does Dr. Nicholls in his Commentary make any remark upon the passage. Bishop Mant in his selection of Notes upon the Common Prayer, has referred to Sparrow and Dr. Burn, who give no further information upon the subject, except indeed that Osmund, the Bishop of Salisbury, about the year 1070, was the compiler of the Use of Sarum.
The Ancient Liturgy of the Church of England, by William Maskell (2nd ed., 1846) http://www.archive.org/details/theancientliturg00maskuoft

1070 was four years after the Norman Invasion of England. England never truly aligned with Rome, which ultimately fueled the split in the 16th Century.

Quote
[T]HE chief Liturgies which have been preserved are those which are called St. James's, St. Mark's, St. Chrysostom's, St. Basil's, the Roman, and preeminent above all these, of an acknowledged greater antiquity than any, the Clementine. As I have reprinted this liturgy of St. Clement at the end of the present volume, it seems necessary that I should make one or two remarks, by which it is to be hoped the reader will be able to judge its value.
The Ancient Liturgy of the Church of England, by William Maskell (2nd ed., 1846) http://www.archive.org/details/theancientliturg00maskuoft

Quote
This Book of Common Prayer was not created in a vacuum, but derives from several sources. First and foremost was the Sarum Rite, or the Latin liturgy developed in Salisbury in the thirteenth century, and widely used in England. Two other influences were a reformed Roman Breviary of the Spanish Cardinal Quiñones, and a book on doctrine and liturgy by Hermann von Wied, Archbishop of Cologne.
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1549/BCP_1549.htm

You're problem is you assume because Rome in heresy, everything the Latin's touch is heretical. The Latin rites are older than the Schism.

BTW, you're Latinclasm is showing.
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« Reply #134 on: November 29, 2010, 06:02:19 PM »

I'd also like to point out, ironically, how scholastic and Western this "If it fell out of use, it's no good" attitude seems to be.  It's almost as if the Western Rite is adopting a more Eastern ethos in regards to our attitude of, "All is alive in Christ.  Nothing dies out.  Nothing is lost."  Interesting Smiley
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