Author Topic: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?  (Read 42300 times)

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Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
« Reply #180 on: January 05, 2011, 02:45:14 PM »
I am challenged by the multiplicity of WR usage even within  ROCOR, let alone when you look at Antioch.

The Antiochian Western Rite is pretty uniform actually.  We have one approved missal with which we conduct our services, many parishes serving both liturgies.
Arguably the western theological mindset has had a huge influence of the Antiochian Archdiocese in the USA - clergy wearing western style clericals outside of liturgical worship, beardless bishops and priests ( some), the New Calendar to name a few that stand out.  Some of these I suspect are even barriers to non-Antiochian WR being closer to the Antiochian WR Vicariate.

The level of dispute amongst WR clergy in particular in relation to liturgy i.e. the Western-rite mass is amazing with some labelling Antiochian WR as "Tridentine" because you have a high mass with 6 candles on the altar, which is anathema to ye-olde Sarum purists.

It is common knowledge that the "western" dress and beardlessness of clergy in the Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America is a result of directives issued from and enforced by His Eminence, the Most Reverend Metropolitan PHILIP. See this thread for one example: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=31038.0. The "western theological mindset," whatever that vague generalization means, is not the cause here.
Given that Catholic/Episcopalian style clergy shirts with dog-collars has no Eastern precedent and that beards have both canonical and historical and Biblical reasons for their use in the Church by clergy from Apostolic times to this day, what do you base the decision of His Eminence Metropolitan Phillip (Saliba) to direct his bishops and clergy in such a way on?  Is it about fitting in with US secular society?  Is it about being ecumenical? The Roman Church is trying to undo Vatican II's de-sacralization of churches and modernist Orthodox thinking is not so different - "relevance" with the world.

I appreciate that many in the Self-Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese hold much more traditionalist Orthodox views about such things and that it appears that much depends on the rulings of your chief hierarch.

I do not presume to know the mind of His Eminence. I do not believe that a "western theological mindset" influences him in any way whatsoever. Your alternative suggestions are probably closer to the truth, IMO.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
« Reply #181 on: January 06, 2011, 12:33:54 PM »

It troubles me how little connection there is in reality between those in the WR - and by that I mean charitable, fraternal sharing.  One group even try and restrict their prayer-book from those outside their group - even canonical Orthodox priests! 

 

One suspects that a group with such a high level of xenophobia will not be successful and will simply fade away.

Offline seabeau

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Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
« Reply #182 on: January 06, 2011, 02:08:17 PM »
It is kind of funny (and sad) to hear the discussion on the Western Rite. Have any of you actually attended or even know a Western Rite Orthodox. We are fully Orthodox in our mindset, theology, and community values. Most of what has been said on this thread is of no value

1.We do not commune non Orthodox and if that was to be done we would see it as heresy.
2.We have the same standard beliefs as all are canonical Orthodox brethren.
3.Are rite is Western, but our hearts and minds are completely in union with Orthodox beliefs.
4.Our local church has always participated in any of the pan Orthodox events in the area, and we are always well represented in any Orthodox service or event in our area. The people who know us, know us as brother and sisters in the Orthodox faith.
5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could

Many of the comments in this thread are highly offensive. I don’t get the whole eat and attack you brother thing. Our faith is much bigger than our small prejudices. The Church was whole for nearly 1000 years, (east and west). Is it not time we strive to make it whole again.

Please find the time to attend a Western Rite church.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
« Reply #183 on: January 06, 2011, 02:41:41 PM »
5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could
You mean, your local parish doesn't baptize by full emersion?
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Offline Margaret S.

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Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
« Reply #184 on: January 06, 2011, 02:51:49 PM »
Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

Ebor

It took me five of my seven years to learn to love the eastern liturgy as much as I had loved the western. It's not easy. Some people take to it like the proverbial duck and others nearly drown.

Regards,
Margaret
in Edinburgh

Offline SubdeaconDavid

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Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
« Reply #185 on: January 07, 2011, 06:13:51 AM »
Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

Ebor
It took me five of my seven years to learn to love the eastern liturgy as much as I had loved the western. It's not easy. Some people take to it like the proverbial duck and others nearly drown.

Regards,
Margaret
in Edinburgh
Today as I struggled with a straight English baptism service book to keep up with the Serbian of the baptisimal rite sung by a Serbian priest, using Slavonic as "the choir" and reading the Epistle and Creed in English, it struck me that for the Serbian archimandrite who served our Nativity liturgy today and then the baptism, that he recognised the place of English and of Western converts in the big picture of Orthodoxy.  This was profoundly comforting.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 06:14:57 AM by SubdeaconDavid »
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Offline Reader KevinAndrew

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Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
« Reply #186 on: January 09, 2011, 02:25:39 PM »
5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could
You mean, your local parish doesn't baptize by full emersion?

Neither does the OCA's national cathedral in Washington, DC (St. Nicholas). They do for babies but not adults.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 02:26:52 PM by Reader KevinAndrew »

Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
« Reply #187 on: January 09, 2011, 05:05:15 PM »
5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could
You mean, your local parish doesn't baptize by full emersion?
:P

Ours doesn't have the facilities either, but we use the river when its warm and built a modest size baptismal font out of an old oil drum, encasing it inside an insulated wooden box to use in the small narthex when it's cold. :D It can be done.

In Christ,
Andrew
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 05:05:59 PM by Shlomlokh »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
« Reply #188 on: February 26, 2011, 06:10:36 PM »
Here are a couple of message from Indiana, from 1998 and 2008, which illustrate the difficulty with Western Rite growth.  In October this year there will be a Joint Antiochian-ROCA Conference on Western Rite and I am hoping that mission will be a key topic on the agenda.  Anybody have any thoughts?

Subject:Re: Orthononsense and Alice in Jurisdictionland
On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, ST. PETROC MONASTERY
<stpetrocabbey@TRUMP...... AU> wrote:

>FROM: Fr. Michael, St. Petroc Monastery

> This Monastery has a task from our Archbishop to actively go and bring people into Orthodoxy - I have at present, current enquiries from clergy and people to become Orthodox in six cities. These will of necessity involve new Parishes - can you imagine the howls of clerical pain when these Parishes are erected?<

-oOo-

From:Fr Ambrose <emrys@GLOBE.......NZ>
Reply-To:Orthodox Christianity <orthodox@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Date:Thu, 14 Aug 2008


Dear Father Michael,

We have been listening for 10 years now, awaiting these "howls of clerical pain."

But all has been remarkably quiet and no clerics have been heard howling. :-)

I take it that these six Western Rite parishes in six Australian cities did not eventuate?

Now that you have 10 years of active missionary work under your belt, working to bring the Anglo-Saxon-Celts of Australia to Orthodoxy and have a seasoned and first-hand knowledge of the difficulties, what are your thoughts on the lack of interest in Western Rite liturgy?  In light of this lack of success do the monks of Saint Petroc envisage changes to their missionary approach?  It must be disappointing to the Archbishop that his hopes of the monastery bringing people into Orthodoxy via the Western Rite have not materialised.  Do you think that changing to the Byzantine Rite would be more successful in  mission work in Australia?

Fr Ambrose

-oOo-
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 06:17:25 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline SubdeaconDavid

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Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
« Reply #189 on: February 26, 2011, 09:50:49 PM »
    Here are a couple of message from Indiana, from 1998 and 2008, which illustrate the difficulty with Western Rite growth.  In October this year there will be a Joint Antiochian-ROCA Conference on Western Rite and I am hoping that mission will be a key topic on the agenda.  Anybody have any thoughts?

    Subject:Re: Orthononsense and Alice in Jurisdictionland
    On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, ST. PETROC MONASTERY
    <stpetrocabbey@TRUMP...... AU> wrote:

    >FROM: Fr. Michael, St. Petroc Monastery

    > This Monastery has a task from our Archbishop to actively go and bring people into Orthodoxy - I have at present, current enquiries from clergy and people to become Orthodox in six cities. These will of necessity involve new Parishes - can you imagine the howls of clerical pain when these Parishes are erected?<

    -oOo-

    From:Fr Ambrose <emrys@GLOBE.......NZ>
    Reply-To:Orthodox Christianity <orthodox@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
    Date:Thu, 14 Aug 2008


    Dear Father Michael,

    We have been listening for 10 years now, awaiting these "howls of clerical pain."

    But all has been remarkably quiet and no clerics have been heard howling. :-)

    I take it that these six Western Rite parishes in six Australian cities did not eventuate?

    Now that you have 10 years of active missionary work under your belt, working to bring the Anglo-Saxon-Celts of Australia to Orthodoxy and have a seasoned and first-hand knowledge of the difficulties, what are your thoughts on the lack of interest in Western Rite liturgy?  In light of this lack of success do the monks of Saint Petroc envisage changes to their missionary approach?  It must be disappointing to the Archbishop that his hopes of the monastery bringing people into Orthodoxy via the Western Rite have not materialised.  Do you think that changing to the Byzantine Rite would be more successful in  mission work in Australia?

    Fr Ambrose


    -oOo-
    The earlier quoted email from Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) or (Wood) predicated success that has not realised half a dozen thriving parishes since he wrote this in 1998.  In 2011 my understanding from ROCOR sources in Australia is that the Paruchia of St. Petroc has a limited number of operations:

    The web references are not Petrochian sources but obtained from the Russian Church Abroad's Australian website at http://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=2

    • St. Petroc Monastery - Cascades, Tasmania http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=321&lang=en- abbatial seat of Fr. Abbott Michael who is resident in the United Kingdom  now. No other resident monastics i.e.  St. Petroc's is currently empty.

      St. Dyfan  Mission Sandy Bay Tasmania - 1 x subdeacon, 2 x regular laity and 1 non-Orthodox attendee (plus 4 others by account who attend occasionally) One of the WR congregation said they are looking for new worship premises
    http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=376&lang=en

    St. Stephen Mission Launceston Tasmania: consists of the only ROCOR Western-rite priest left living in Australia, Fr. Barry Jefferies and his matushka who serve the Hobart St. Dyfan's congregation fortnightly.http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=169&lang=en

    University Western-rite Mission Sandy Bay Tasmania - see St. Dyfan's entry because St. Dyfan's use the University Ecumenical Chapel.[urlhttp://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=1486][/url]

    The total for the Paruchian Western-rite in Australia is thus very small.  No Western-rite churches or missions in the major metropolitan cities at all- Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth.  Tiny Hobart has one mission left and one priest in Tasmania - currently this one priest is the sum total  oF ROCOR WR clergy in Australia at time of writing with no more than 10 laity in Australia.

    By contrast, if one looks at the ROCOR Australian clergy directory you will see a number of Australian priests, and English language missions in Melbourne (2), an indigenous Aboriginal mission, and English language missionary activity in most parishes of note such as Adelaide, with Fr. Peter Hill, an Australian priest-monk in Dandenong parish and more.  The converts do keep coming, if not in droves but steadily, and all seem to integrate in time into the Russian Church Abroad.  The monastic presence is especially vibrant for Australians in the Byzantine rite with men and women monastics of Australian convert origin.

    Perhaps by being extra-diocesan and not under the authority of local bishops and deans, the Western-rite world-wide is being starved of helpful association with brother clergy, of funds because the massive Byzantine rite at leats has scope for significant fund raising, of well-meaning laity and clergy who just might be supportive of Western-rite Orthodox missionary life. Perhaps integration of the Western-rite into the wider Orthodox Church's ecclesiastical and cultural life could bring much needed support and life.  Indeed with elderly clergy, without Western-rite ordinations, the future of the Paruchia is most uncertain in Australia at least.  

    There is no doubt that Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)  had put in a lot of effort in his Western-rite endeavours over the years, and I am sure it saddens him that so much hard work has  been unfruitful at least in terms of what he wrote in 1998 predicting parishes in most Australian major cities. Nonetheless the Paruchia has it's admirers and loyalists who value the efforts expended to revive English Western-rite Orthodoxy. Hopefully today's admission of a Columban novice will be a moment of joy in the life of the Paruchia. May the Lord bless Sister Margaret and Fr. Michael in this solemn revival of Columban rule monastic life to Orthodoxy. This is a sign of life and hope.

    It is useful to reflect on what has not worked and to find ways of moving forward.  In regard to Australia, I think that the Western-rite is likely to merge with the Byzantine-rite through sheer necessity in time if there are no Western-rite priests available to serve.  Indeed unless converts are made and retained, the Western-rite will never have the critical mass to survive,   Hopefully the fact that the Byzantine rite of ROCOR commemorate the Western saints and honours the pre-Schism history of the Western Church liturgically, and the fact that so much worship is in English now will be of comfort down the track.

    If the Byzantine rite is what the majority of converts to Orthodoxy are embracing why is that?  Maybe to younger generations of western people in a world where travel, the internet and modern education have broken down cultural walls, the barriers to the West embracing the East are no longer relevant, except for a minority. Maybe the cultural relevance of a form of Western Christianity that is no loner visible in the liturgical life of the Latin Church and Anglican Church ( the Tridentine mass and BCP mass) means that Western people are more and more unchurched, and find the Eastern Church no harder to connect with than the Western Church?  Indeed without possessing in the main, parish church buildings, the Western-rite is at a further disadvantage in winning converts.

    None of this is to deny the efficacy of the pre-Schism Western Orthodoxy.  After all it is Eastern Orthodox who have revived the veneration of saints and holy places long forgotten in Western European Christian history both Anglican and Latin.[/list]
    « Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 10:17:44 PM by SubdeaconDavid »
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    Offline Ebor

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #190 on: February 27, 2011, 12:43:49 PM »
    Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

    But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

    Ebor
    I understand that this is how you feel.  What exactly do you find challenging about the Byzantine rite?

    I find your use of "challenging" to be interesting as though this is a subject in school.  It is not, but a matter of personal worship and Our Lord.  It is possible that were I to write of some things on the EO liturgy that there would be others who would be hurt or think that I was somehow "attacking" their personal devotions and worship.  Since I am a guest here, I do not wish to cause such offense even inadvertently. 

    Quote
     I also feel that for me at least, that submission to God and His Church requires of me that I give up in some way my own preferences, which is how I have approached religion for much of my life. 

    This seems to say, please correct me if I am misunderstanding you, that you hold that only the practices of the EO are the one proper and acceptable way to worship the Father and Creator of all things.


    Ebor
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    Offline Ebor

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #191 on: February 27, 2011, 12:45:25 PM »
    Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

    But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

    Ebor

    It took me five of my seven years to learn to love the eastern liturgy as much as I had loved the western. It's not easy. Some people take to it like the proverbial duck and others nearly drown.

    Regards,
    Margaret
    in Edinburgh

    And some are not ducks nor any other kind of water fowl, but belong in a different "ecosystem".   ;) 

    Regards,

    Ebor
    "I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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    Offline turtlemom

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    Re: New Western Rite Abbot
    « Reply #192 on: March 23, 2014, 08:36:16 PM »

    Sunday, March 21, 2010
    New Western Rite Abbot

    I discovered on Tuesday, March 16, 2010, that Fr. Hieromonk David (Pierce) has been confirmed in the rank of Abbot by Metropolitan Hilarion, first hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Dom David's community, formerly named Holyrood after the Holy Cross, now bears the name "Dormition Monastery."

    Source :: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/



    Today is Sunday, March 23, 2013

    Abbot David (Pierce), my beloved Godson, fell asleep in the Lord at 2:45am today as the result of an aggressive brain cancer.

    May his Memory be Eternal.

    Please pray for his soul, especially in these first 30 days. And please pray for me, the unworthy handmaiden of God, Elizabeth. I am just devastated.

    With Love in Christ, and trusting in the Resurrection,
    Elizabeth Riggs
    « Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 08:49:07 PM by turtlemom »
    With Love in Christ,
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    Offline biro

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #193 on: March 23, 2014, 08:45:02 PM »
    Lord have mercy.

    Memory eternal.
    He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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    Offline SolEX01

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #194 on: March 23, 2014, 10:57:05 PM »
    May his memory be eternal.

    Offline Mockingbird

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    Re: New Western Rite Abbot
    « Reply #195 on: March 23, 2014, 11:46:24 PM »
    Abbot David (Pierce), my beloved Godson, fell asleep in the Lord at 2:45am today as the result of an aggressive brain cancer.
    So sorry for your loss.  Lux perpetua luceat ei.
    Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

    Offline frjohnmorris

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #196 on: March 26, 2014, 03:13:23 PM »
    I have never been to a WR liturgy, but from what I've seen in the Internet, these liturgies look like Anglican liturgies.

    These liturgies might attract former Anglicans but not Traditional Latin Christians because of some aspects of the liturgy itself (use of vulgar tongues, Anglican anthems, etc.).

    The WR would probably be more succesful if they celebrated the liturgy in Latin (or at least part of it in Latin) and following the Latin tradition more closely.

    In my country, an Orthodox Latin mass would be succesful if it's given propper promotion. However, the hierarchs would have to be careful so that this new mission doesn't cause confusion among the faithful or make others think that their church is a RC Church.

    The Western Rite of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America uses the Liturgy of St. Gregory, which is the pre-Vatican II Roman Mass with a few revisions to conform to Orthodox theology. I believe that some Western Rite Parishes even serve it in Latin, at least occasionally.

    Fr. John W. Morris

    Offline WPM

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #197 on: March 26, 2014, 03:55:59 PM »
    I plan to attend & visit a Western Rite service this Sunday Cool thread God bless

    Offline frjohnmorris

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #198 on: March 26, 2014, 10:56:39 PM »
    I plan to attend & visit a Western Rite service this Sunday Cool thread God bless

    I should have mentioned that the Western Rite of the Antiochian Archdiocese also uses the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, which is 1928 American Book of Common Prayer with a few revisions to conform to Orthodox doctrine. So you may visit an Antiochian Western Rite parish and not see the Liturgy of St. Gregory.

    Fr. John W. Morris

    Offline Rdunbar123

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #199 on: March 31, 2014, 06:31:06 AM »
    I was RC for 61 years, received into Orthodoxy  2 yrs ago. I staters instructions I. A Greek church, liked the litugy, but couldn't understand it. On this site found reference to WR. Attended a service and loved it, I work away from my home parish and sometimes attend the Eastern Liturgy(Antiochian ) in English and am starting to like it maybe better. Two points, our priest frequently in a sermon will start a sentence with" what we believe as Orthodox is........, we were a mission at first and recently built our first church, we are theologically orthodox. Diverse congregation few RC some Anglican, many from non liturgical background, point being it is insulting for some posters to look into our hearts and assume they know what motivates us. I know that if the western rite vanished, I would simply attend an Eastern rite. We are encourage to attend our neighboring parishes. Second point, even though the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom was the original one as described in the acts of the Apostles........but wait it isn't ,I still like the Liturgy of St Gregory. Let the hateful, ignorant replies flow freely.

    Offline primuspilus

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #200 on: March 31, 2014, 08:44:10 AM »
    I was RC for 61 years, received into Orthodoxy  2 yrs ago. I staters instructions I. A Greek church, liked the litugy, but couldn't understand it. On this site found reference to WR. Attended a service and loved it, I work away from my home parish and sometimes attend the Eastern Liturgy(Antiochian ) in English and am starting to like it maybe better. Two points, our priest frequently in a sermon will start a sentence with" what we believe as Orthodox is........, we were a mission at first and recently built our first church, we are theologically orthodox. Diverse congregation few RC some Anglican, many from non liturgical background, point being it is insulting for some posters to look into our hearts and assume they know what motivates us. I know that if the western rite vanished, I would simply attend an Eastern rite. We are encourage to attend our neighboring parishes. Second point, even though the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom was the original one as described in the acts of the Apostles........but wait it isn't ,I still like the Liturgy of St Gregory. Let the hateful, ignorant replies flow freely.
    Its not that people are hateful, its that unfortunately, being Eastern is synonymous with being Orthodox. Anything different and people think that somehow there is a "foreign element in the Church" to quote Met. Ware. These folks fail to realize that if Rome returned home, she would be Western Orthodox as she was before and would definitely not be using the Eastern traditions (notice the small t).

    Also, there are some folks who are so anti-western that they see anything western as alien at best, and heretical at worst.

    PP
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    Offline DeniseDenise

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #201 on: March 31, 2014, 10:02:59 AM »
    5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could
    You mean, your local parish doesn't baptize by full emersion?

    Neither does the OCA's national cathedral in Washington, DC (St. Nicholas). They do for babies but not adults.


    Argh

    Haven't they been to the nearest 'feed and grain' store like everyone else?

    Galvanized watering trough.

    If a manger was good enough, so is a waterer.  :P

    Offline primuspilus

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #202 on: March 31, 2014, 10:11:23 AM »
    5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could
    You mean, your local parish doesn't baptize by full emersion?

    Neither does the OCA's national cathedral in Washington, DC (St. Nicholas). They do for babies but not adults.


    Argh

    Haven't they been to the nearest 'feed and grain' store like everyone else?

    Galvanized watering trough.

    If a manger was good enough, so is a waterer.  :P
    We're western rite and we baptize by full immersion. We DID go to the feed store and buy a "holy horse trough" :)

    PP
    « Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 10:11:35 AM by primuspilus »
    "I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
    Gregory the Great

    "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

    Offline LBK

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #203 on: March 31, 2014, 10:11:57 AM »
    Quote
    Galvanized watering trough.

    Or a scaled-down version of a "temporary" grain storer or a water tank, big enough for an adult to stand in chest-deep water. The church I attend has had one for at least 50 years, and it's still going strong.
    No longer posting here. Anyone is welcome to email me at the address in my profile.

    Offline frjohnmorris

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #204 on: March 31, 2014, 05:11:17 PM »
    Quote
    Galvanized watering trough.

    Or a scaled-down version of a "temporary" grain storer or a water tank, big enough for an adult to stand in chest-deep water. The church I attend has had one for at least 50 years, and it's still going strong.

    Although I use a "holy horse trough," so that I can fully immerse the catechumen, a study that I have of the practices of every canonical jurisdiction in the United States, shows that most have an adult catechumen hold their head over the Baptismal font and pour water on their head three times. I also believe that is what they do with adults in Russia.

    Fr. John W. Morris

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #205 on: March 31, 2014, 05:13:19 PM »
    Quote
    Galvanized watering trough.

    Or a scaled-down version of a "temporary" grain storer or a water tank, big enough for an adult to stand in chest-deep water. The church I attend has had one for at least 50 years, and it's still going strong.

    Although I use a "holy horse trough," so that I can fully immerse the catechumen, a study that I have of the practices of every canonical jurisdiction in the United States, shows that most have an adult catechumen hold their head over the Baptismal font and pour water on their head three times. I also believe that is what they do with adults in Russia.

    Fr. John W. Morris
    What would your faithful say if you suggested using the river?
    Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

    THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

    Offline Elisha

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #206 on: March 31, 2014, 05:22:21 PM »
    Quote
    Galvanized watering trough.

    Or a scaled-down version of a "temporary" grain storer or a water tank, big enough for an adult to stand in chest-deep water. The church I attend has had one for at least 50 years, and it's still going strong.

    Although I use a "holy horse trough," so that I can fully immerse the catechumen, a study that I have of the practices of every canonical jurisdiction in the United States, shows that most have an adult catechumen hold their head over the Baptismal font and pour water on their head three times. I also believe that is what they do with adults in Russia.

    Fr. John W. Morris

    I've seen horse troughs used a few times myself.

    Offline frjohnmorris

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #207 on: March 31, 2014, 05:39:17 PM »
    Quote
    Galvanized watering trough.

    Or a scaled-down version of a "temporary" grain storer or a water tank, big enough for an adult to stand in chest-deep water. The church I attend has had one for at least 50 years, and it's still going strong.

    Although I use a "holy horse trough," so that I can fully immerse the catechumen, a study that I have of the practices of every canonical jurisdiction in the United States, shows that most have an adult catechumen hold their head over the Baptismal font and pour water on their head three times. I also believe that is what they do with adults in Russia.

    Fr. John W. Morris
    What would your faithful say if you suggested using the river?

    I would not use the nearest River, the Mississippi, because the filth of half the United States flows down it.  Other rivers and creeks in our area are filled with cotton mouth snakes or alligators, besides how would I get into the water to immerse them without ruining my vestments?  The horse trough works well. I have the person sit in it and then immerse them.

    Fr. John W. Morris

    Offline Nephi

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #208 on: March 31, 2014, 05:50:55 PM »
    My (adult) baptism was with a large 100-ish gallon Rubbermaid container, draped with white cloth IIRC. I'd imagine a little cheaper than a metal trough.
    « Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 05:51:34 PM by Nephi »

    Online Agabus

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #209 on: March 31, 2014, 06:03:18 PM »
    Quote
    Galvanized watering trough.

    Or a scaled-down version of a "temporary" grain storer or a water tank, big enough for an adult to stand in chest-deep water. The church I attend has had one for at least 50 years, and it's still going strong.

    Although I use a "holy horse trough," so that I can fully immerse the catechumen, a study that I have of the practices of every canonical jurisdiction in the United States, shows that most have an adult catechumen hold their head over the Baptismal font and pour water on their head three times. I also believe that is what they do with adults in Russia.

    Fr. John W. Morris
    What would your faithful say if you suggested using the river?

    I would not use the nearest River, the Mississippi, because the filth of half the United States flows down it.  Other rivers and creeks in our area are filled with cotton mouth snakes or alligators, besides how would I get into the water to immerse them without ruining my vestments?  The horse trough works well. I have the person sit in it and then immerse them.

    Fr. John W. Morris
    I was speaking purely tongue-in-cheek, though it would be kind of funny to see a triple-immersion happening down by the Lady Luck.

    Being only slightly downriver from you, I would never advise getting in the water, even if the EP did bless the waters a few years ago.

    I personally like the holy horse trough as I've seen it used. Sorta ties us to the redemption of the whole world.
    Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

    THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

    Offline Peter J

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #210 on: May 13, 2014, 10:45:35 AM »
    To put the OQ in perspective, how many WRO are there in the world? I realize accurate figures are hard to come by, but what's a good ballpark?
    - Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

    Offline primuspilus

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #211 on: May 13, 2014, 01:18:01 PM »
    To put the OQ in perspective, how many WRO are there in the world? I realize accurate figures are hard to come by, but what's a good ballpark?
    I've heard anywhere from 2,000-6,000. Not alot but most are in our diocese. My guess is closer to the 2,000 number.

    PP
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    Gregory the Great

    "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

    Offline ialmisry

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #212 on: May 13, 2014, 01:28:09 PM »
    Quote
    Galvanized watering trough.

    Or a scaled-down version of a "temporary" grain storer or a water tank, big enough for an adult to stand in chest-deep water. The church I attend has had one for at least 50 years, and it's still going strong.

    Although I use a "holy horse trough," so that I can fully immerse the catechumen, a study that I have of the practices of every canonical jurisdiction in the United States, shows that most have an adult catechumen hold their head over the Baptismal font and pour water on their head three times. I also believe that is what they do with adults in Russia.

    Fr. John W. Morris
    What would your faithful say if you suggested using the river?

    I would not use the nearest River, the Mississippi, because the filth of half the United States flows down it. 
    in Chicago you can use the river and have a combined funeral service.
    Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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    and urgent strife sheds blood.
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    if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                               and both come out of your mouth

    Offline Peter J

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #213 on: May 13, 2014, 04:46:17 PM »
    To put the OQ in perspective, how many WRO are there in the world? I realize accurate figures are hard to come by, but what's a good ballpark?
    I've heard anywhere from 2,000-6,000.

    Well that's not too bad. We only have about 8 thousand Greek Catholics ... Or was it million?
    - Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

    Offline primuspilus

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #214 on: May 15, 2014, 07:48:18 AM »
    To put the OQ in perspective, how many WRO are there in the world? I realize accurate figures are hard to come by, but what's a good ballpark?
    I've heard anywhere from 2,000-6,000.

    Well that's not too bad. We only have about 8 thousand Greek Catholics ... Or was it million?
    You'll right your ship soon enough :)

    PP
    "I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
    Gregory the Great

    "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

    Offline Deacon Lance

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #215 on: May 15, 2014, 04:03:48 PM »

    To put the OQ in perspective, how many WRO are there in the world? I realize accurate figures are hard to come by, but what's a good ballpark?
    I've heard anywhere from 2,000-6,000.

    Well that's not too bad. We only have about 8 thousand Greek Catholics ... Or was it million?

    If you are speaking of the Hellenic Greek Catholic Church there are 6 thousand if speaking of all Greek Catholic Churches there are about 7.5 million.
    My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

    Offline Peter J

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #216 on: May 15, 2014, 06:19:53 PM »

    To put the OQ in perspective, how many WRO are there in the world? I realize accurate figures are hard to come by, but what's a good ballpark?
    I've heard anywhere from 2,000-6,000.

    Well that's not too bad. We only have about 8 thousand Greek Catholics ... Or was it million?

    If you are speaking of the Hellenic Greek Catholic Church there are 6 thousand if speaking of all Greek Catholic Churches there are about 7.5 million.

    The latter, all Greek Catholics. (I put in "thousands" as a joke ... never considering the alternate interpretation.)
    - Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

    Offline primuspilus

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #217 on: May 16, 2014, 08:18:55 AM »

    To put the OQ in perspective, how many WRO are there in the world? I realize accurate figures are hard to come by, but what's a good ballpark?
    I've heard anywhere from 2,000-6,000.

    Well that's not too bad. We only have about 8 thousand Greek Catholics ... Or was it million?

    If you are speaking of the Hellenic Greek Catholic Church there are 6 thousand if speaking of all Greek Catholic Churches there are about 7.5 million.

    The latter, all Greek Catholics. (I put in "thousands" as a joke ... never considering the alternate interpretation.)
    Well, you know what the saying is, "Broad is the gate...." :)

    PP
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    Gregory the Great

    "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

    Offline Peter J

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #218 on: May 16, 2014, 08:33:50 AM »

    To put the OQ in perspective, how many WRO are there in the world? I realize accurate figures are hard to come by, but what's a good ballpark?
    I've heard anywhere from 2,000-6,000.

    Well that's not too bad. We only have about 8 thousand Greek Catholics ... Or was it million?

    If you are speaking of the Hellenic Greek Catholic Church there are 6 thousand if speaking of all Greek Catholic Churches there are about 7.5 million.

    The latter, all Greek Catholics. (I put in "thousands" as a joke ... never considering the alternate interpretation.)
    Well, you know what the saying is, "Broad is the gate...." :)

    PP

    Heh  :) but seriously I was a bit surprised by your figure. I definitely would have thought it was in the tens-of-thousands.
    - Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

    Offline primuspilus

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #219 on: May 16, 2014, 08:46:10 AM »

    To put the OQ in perspective, how many WRO are there in the world? I realize accurate figures are hard to come by, but what's a good ballpark?
    I've heard anywhere from 2,000-6,000.

    Well that's not too bad. We only have about 8 thousand Greek Catholics ... Or was it million?

    If you are speaking of the Hellenic Greek Catholic Church there are 6 thousand if speaking of all Greek Catholic Churches there are about 7.5 million.

    The latter, all Greek Catholics. (I put in "thousands" as a joke ... never considering the alternate interpretation.)
    Well, you know what the saying is, "Broad is the gate...." :)

    PP

    Heh  :) but seriously I was a bit surprised by your figure. I definitely would have thought it was in the tens-of-thousands.
    It very well might be, but that is the last number I heard. If it was tens of thousands, then the Archdiocese would have even a bigger problem explaining why the entire Western Rite Vicariate's budget is significantly less than the office budget in Englewood.

    PP
    "I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
    Gregory the Great

    "Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

    Offline Peter J

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #220 on: May 25, 2014, 09:09:50 AM »

    To put the OQ in perspective, how many WRO are there in the world? I realize accurate figures are hard to come by, but what's a good ballpark?
    I've heard anywhere from 2,000-6,000.

    Well that's not too bad. We only have about 8 thousand Greek Catholics ... Or was it million?

    If you are speaking of the Hellenic Greek Catholic Church there are 6 thousand if speaking of all Greek Catholic Churches there are about 7.5 million.

    The latter, all Greek Catholics. (I put in "thousands" as a joke ... never considering the alternate interpretation.)
    Well, you know what the saying is, "Broad is the gate...." :)

    PP

    Heh  :) but seriously I was a bit surprised by your figure. I definitely would have thought it was in the tens-of-thousands.
    It very well might be, but that is the last number I heard. If it was tens of thousands, then the Archdiocese would have even a bigger problem explaining why the entire Western Rite Vicariate's budget is significantly less than the office budget in Englewood.

    PP

    Maybe I should not have been so surprised. After all, if you ask what degree of success (or whatever you want to call it) Greek Catholicism has enjoyed, the answer varies greatly (enormously) -- just compare the GC situation in Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, and Slovakia, with the GC situation in Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, and Greece.
    - Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

    Offline Peter J

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #221 on: May 25, 2014, 04:16:22 PM »
    I think that most people who love the Western Rite also love Western theology and thought patterns.  Why only go for half of the Western tradition, when the Roman Catholic Church has the whole thing?

    I realize this is a question from 4.5 years ago, but I was inclined to repost it (since nobody answered it) ...
    - Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

    Offline Clemente

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #222 on: May 25, 2014, 06:20:08 PM »
    I think that most people who love the Western Rite also love Western theology and thought patterns.  Why only go for half of the Western tradition, when the Roman Catholic Church has the whole thing?

    I realize this is a question from 4.5 years ago, but I was inclined to repost it (since nobody answered it) ...

    By the same logic, so does Anglicanism.

    Neither the RCC nor the Anglican Church has maintained the Orthodox tradition that once prevailed in the West, sadly. Hence, the opportunity for a revival of Western Orthodoxy.

    Offline Nephi

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #223 on: May 25, 2014, 08:10:20 PM »
    I think that most people who love the Western Rite also love Western theology and thought patterns.  Why only go for half of the Western tradition, when the Roman Catholic Church has the whole thing?

    I realize this is a question from 4.5 years ago, but I was inclined to repost it (since nobody answered it) ...

    And the Roman Catholic Church also has a lot of problems. :angel:
    « Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 09:17:22 PM by Nephi »

    Offline Sleeper

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    Re: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?
    « Reply #224 on: May 25, 2014, 08:42:55 PM »
    Why is WRO only "half of western tradition"?