Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?

[tuesdayschild]

I am challenged by the multiplicity of WR usage even within  ROCOR, let alone when you look at Antioch.

The Antiochian Western Rite is pretty uniform actually.  We have one approved missal with which we conduct our services, many parishes serving both liturgies.

Arguably the western theological mindset has had a huge influence of the Antiochian Archdiocese in the USA - clergy wearing western style clericals outside of liturgical worship, beardless bishops and priests ( some), the New Calendar to name a few that stand out.  Some of these I suspect are even barriers to non-Antiochian WR being closer to the Antiochian WR Vicariate.

The level of dispute amongst WR clergy in particular in relation to liturgy i.e. the Western-rite mass is amazing with some labelling Antiochian WR as "Tridentine" because you have a high mass with 6 candles on the altar, which is anathema to ye-olde Sarum purists.

It is common knowledge that the "western" dress and beardlessness of clergy in the Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America is a result of directives issued from and enforced by His Eminence, the Most Reverend Metropolitan PHILIP. See this thread for one example: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=31038.0. The "western theological mindset," whatever that vague generalization means, is not the cause here.

Given that Catholic/Episcopalian style clergy shirts with dog-collars has no Eastern precedent and that beards have both canonical and historical and Biblical reasons for their use in the Church by clergy from Apostolic times to this day, what do you base the decision of His Eminence Metropolitan Phillip (Saliba) to direct his bishops and clergy in such a way on?  Is it about fitting in with US secular society?  Is it about being ecumenical? The Roman Church is trying to undo Vatican II's de-sacralization of churches and modernist Orthodox thinking is not so different - "relevance" with the world.

I appreciate that many in the Self-Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese hold much more traditionalist Orthodox views about such things and that it appears that much depends on the rulings of your chief hierarch.

I do not presume to know the mind of His Eminence. I do not believe that a "western theological mindset" influences him in any way whatsoever. Your alternative suggestions are probably closer to the truth, IMO.

[Irish Hermit]

It troubles me how little connection there is in reality between those in the WR - and by that I mean charitable, fraternal sharing.  One group even try and restrict their prayer-book from those outside their group - even canonical Orthodox priests! 

 

One suspects that a group with such a high level of xenophobia will not be successful and will simply fade away.

[seabeau]

It is kind of funny (and sad) to hear the discussion on the Western Rite. Have any of you actually attended or even know a Western Rite Orthodox. We are fully Orthodox in our mindset, theology, and community values. Most of what has been said on this thread is of no value

1.We do not commune non Orthodox and if that was to be done we would see it as heresy.
2.We have the same standard beliefs as all are canonical Orthodox brethren.
3.Are rite is Western, but our hearts and minds are completely in union with Orthodox beliefs.
4.Our local church has always participated in any of the pan Orthodox events in the area, and we are always well represented in any Orthodox service or event in our area. The people who know us, know us as brother and sisters in the Orthodox faith.
5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could

Many of the comments in this thread are highly offensive. I don’t get the whole eat and attack you brother thing. Our faith is much bigger than our small prejudices. The Church was whole for nearly 1000 years, (east and west). Is it not time we strive to make it whole again.

Please find the time to attend a Western Rite church.

[Jetavan]

5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could

You mean, your local parish doesn't baptize by full emersion?

[Margaret S.]

Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

Ebor

It took me five of my seven years to learn to love the eastern liturgy as much as I had loved the western. It's not easy. Some people take to it like the proverbial duck and others nearly drown.

Regards,
Margaret
in Edinburgh

[SubdeaconDavid]

Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

Ebor

It took me five of my seven years to learn to love the eastern liturgy as much as I had loved the western. It's not easy. Some people take to it like the proverbial duck and others nearly drown.

Regards,
Margaret
in Edinburgh

Today as I struggled with a straight English baptism service book to keep up with the Serbian of the baptisimal rite sung by a Serbian priest, using Slavonic as "the choir" and reading the Epistle and Creed in English, it struck me that for the Serbian archimandrite who served our Nativity liturgy today and then the baptism, that he recognised the place of English and of Western converts in the big picture of Orthodoxy.  This was profoundly comforting.

[Reader KevinAndrew]

5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could

You mean, your local parish doesn't baptize by full emersion?

Neither does the OCA's national cathedral in Washington, DC (St. Nicholas). They do for babies but not adults.

[Shlomlokh]

5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could

You mean, your local parish doesn't baptize by full emersion?

Ours doesn't have the facilities either, but we use the river when its warm and built a modest size baptismal font out of an old oil drum, encasing it inside an insulated wooden box to use in the small narthex when it's cold. It can be done.

In Christ,
Andrew

[Irish Hermit]

Here are a couple of message from Indiana, from 1998 and 2008, which illustrate the difficulty with Western Rite growth.  In October this year there will be a Joint Antiochian-ROCA Conference on Western Rite and I am hoping that mission will be a key topic on the agenda.  Anybody have any thoughts?

Subject:Re: Orthononsense and Alice in Jurisdictionland
On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, ST. PETROC MONASTERY
<stpetrocabbey@TRUMP...... AU> wrote:

>FROM: Fr. Michael, St. Petroc Monastery

> This Monastery has a task from our Archbishop to actively go and bring people into Orthodoxy - I have at present, current enquiries from clergy and people to become Orthodox in six cities. These will of necessity involve new Parishes - can you imagine the howls of clerical pain when these Parishes are erected?<

-oOo-

From:Fr Ambrose <emrys@GLOBE.......NZ>
Reply-To:Orthodox Christianity <orthodox@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Date:Thu, 14 Aug 2008


Dear Father Michael,

We have been listening for 10 years now, awaiting these "howls of clerical pain."

But all has been remarkably quiet and no clerics have been heard howling. :-)

I take it that these six Western Rite parishes in six Australian cities did not eventuate?

Now that you have 10 years of active missionary work under your belt, working to bring the Anglo-Saxon-Celts of Australia to Orthodoxy and have a seasoned and first-hand knowledge of the difficulties, what are your thoughts on the lack of interest in Western Rite liturgy?  In light of this lack of success do the monks of Saint Petroc envisage changes to their missionary approach?  It must be disappointing to the Archbishop that his hopes of the monastery bringing people into Orthodoxy via the Western Rite have not materialised.  Do you think that changing to the Byzantine Rite would be more successful in  mission work in Australia?

Fr Ambrose

-oOo-

[SubdeaconDavid]

Here are a couple of message from Indiana, from 1998 and 2008, which illustrate the difficulty with Western Rite growth.  In October this year there will be a Joint Antiochian-ROCA Conference on Western Rite and I am hoping that mission will be a key topic on the agenda.  Anybody have any thoughts?

Subject:Re: Orthononsense and Alice in Jurisdictionland
On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, ST. PETROC MONASTERY
<stpetrocabbey@TRUMP...... AU> wrote:

>FROM: Fr. Michael, St. Petroc Monastery

> This Monastery has a task from our Archbishop to actively go and bring people into Orthodoxy - I have at present, current enquiries from clergy and people to become Orthodox in six cities. These will of necessity involve new Parishes - can you imagine the howls of clerical pain when these Parishes are erected?<

-oOo-

From:Fr Ambrose <emrys@GLOBE.......NZ>
Reply-To:Orthodox Christianity <orthodox@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Date:Thu, 14 Aug 2008


Dear Father Michael,

We have been listening for 10 years now, awaiting these "howls of clerical pain."

But all has been remarkably quiet and no clerics have been heard howling. :-)

I take it that these six Western Rite parishes in six Australian cities did not eventuate?

Now that you have 10 years of active missionary work under your belt, working to bring the Anglo-Saxon-Celts of Australia to Orthodoxy and have a seasoned and first-hand knowledge of the difficulties, what are your thoughts on the lack of interest in Western Rite liturgy?  In light of this lack of success do the monks of Saint Petroc envisage changes to their missionary approach?  It must be disappointing to the Archbishop that his hopes of the monastery bringing people into Orthodoxy via the Western Rite have not materialised.  Do you think that changing to the Byzantine Rite would be more successful in  mission work in Australia?

Fr Ambrose

-oOo-

The earlier quoted email from Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) or (Wood) predicated success that has not realised half a dozen thriving parishes since he wrote this in 1998.  In 2011 my understanding from ROCOR sources in Australia is that the Paruchia of St. Petroc has a limited number of operations:

The web references are not Petrochian sources but obtained from the Russian Church Abroad's Australian website at http://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=2

• St. Petroc Monastery - Cascades, Tasmania http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=321&lang=en- abbatial seat of Fr. Abbott Michael who is resident in the United Kingdom  now. No other resident monastics i.e.  St. Petroc's is currently empty.
  
  St. Dyfan  Mission Sandy Bay Tasmania - 1 x subdeacon, 2 x regular laity and 1 non-Orthodox attendee (plus 4 others by account who attend occasionally) One of the WR congregation said they are looking for new worship premises

http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=376&lang=en

St. Stephen Mission Launceston Tasmania: consists of the only ROCOR Western-rite priest left living in Australia, Fr. Barry Jefferies and his matushka who serve the Hobart St. Dyfan's congregation fortnightly.http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=169&lang=en

University Western-rite Mission Sandy Bay Tasmania - see St. Dyfan's entry because St. Dyfan's use the University Ecumenical Chapel.[urlhttp://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=1486][/url]

The total for the Paruchian Western-rite in Australia is thus very small.  No Western-rite churches or missions in the major metropolitan cities at all- Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth.  Tiny Hobart has one mission left and one priest in Tasmania - currently this one priest is the sum total  oF ROCOR WR clergy in Australia at time of writing with no more than 10 laity in Australia.

By contrast, if one looks at the ROCOR Australian clergy directory you will see a number of Australian priests, and English language missions in Melbourne (2), an indigenous Aboriginal mission, and English language missionary activity in most parishes of note such as Adelaide, with Fr. Peter Hill, an Australian priest-monk in Dandenong parish and more.  The converts do keep coming, if not in droves but steadily, and all seem to integrate in time into the Russian Church Abroad.  The monastic presence is especially vibrant for Australians in the Byzantine rite with men and women monastics of Australian convert origin.

Perhaps by being extra-diocesan and not under the authority of local bishops and deans, the Western-rite world-wide is being starved of helpful association with brother clergy, of funds because the massive Byzantine rite at leats has scope for significant fund raising, of well-meaning laity and clergy who just might be supportive of Western-rite Orthodox missionary life. Perhaps integration of the Western-rite into the wider Orthodox Church's ecclesiastical and cultural life could bring much needed support and life.  Indeed with elderly clergy, without Western-rite ordinations, the future of the Paruchia is most uncertain in Australia at least.  

There is no doubt that Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)  had put in a lot of effort in his Western-rite endeavours over the years, and I am sure it saddens him that so much hard work has  been unfruitful at least in terms of what he wrote in 1998 predicting parishes in most Australian major cities. Nonetheless the Paruchia has it's admirers and loyalists who value the efforts expended to revive English Western-rite Orthodoxy. Hopefully today's admission of a Columban novice will be a moment of joy in the life of the Paruchia. May the Lord bless Sister Margaret and Fr. Michael in this solemn revival of Columban rule monastic life to Orthodoxy. This is a sign of life and hope.

It is useful to reflect on what has not worked and to find ways of moving forward.  In regard to Australia, I think that the Western-rite is likely to merge with the Byzantine-rite through sheer necessity in time if there are no Western-rite priests available to serve.  Indeed unless converts are made and retained, the Western-rite will never have the critical mass to survive,   Hopefully the fact that the Byzantine rite of ROCOR commemorate the Western saints and honours the pre-Schism history of the Western Church liturgically, and the fact that so much worship is in English now will be of comfort down the track.

If the Byzantine rite is what the majority of converts to Orthodoxy are embracing why is that?  Maybe to younger generations of western people in a world where travel, the internet and modern education have broken down cultural walls, the barriers to the West embracing the East are no longer relevant, except for a minority. Maybe the cultural relevance of a form of Western Christianity that is no loner visible in the liturgical life of the Latin Church and Anglican Church ( the Tridentine mass and BCP mass) means that Western people are more and more unchurched, and find the Eastern Church no harder to connect with than the Western Church?  Indeed without possessing in the main, parish church buildings, the Western-rite is at a further disadvantage in winning converts.

None of this is to deny the efficacy of the pre-Schism Western Orthodoxy.  After all it is Eastern Orthodox who have revived the veneration of saints and holy places long forgotten in Western European Christian history both Anglican and Latin.[/list]

[Ebor]

Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

Ebor

I understand that this is how you feel.  What exactly do you find challenging about the Byzantine rite?

I find your use of "challenging" to be interesting as though this is a subject in school.  It is not, but a matter of personal worship and Our Lord.  It is possible that were I to write of some things on the EO liturgy that there would be others who would be hurt or think that I was somehow "attacking" their personal devotions and worship.  Since I am a guest here, I do not wish to cause such offense even inadvertently. 

 I also feel that for me at least, that submission to God and His Church requires of me that I give up in some way my own preferences, which is how I have approached religion for much of my life. 

This seems to say, please correct me if I am misunderstanding you, that you hold that only the practices of the EO are the one proper and acceptable way to worship the Father and Creator of all things.


Ebor

[Ebor]

Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

Ebor

It took me five of my seven years to learn to love the eastern liturgy as much as I had loved the western. It's not easy. Some people take to it like the proverbial duck and others nearly drown.

Regards,
Margaret
in Edinburgh

And some are not ducks nor any other kind of water fowl, but belong in a different "ecosystem".    

Regards,

Ebor

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