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Author Topic: Why isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy thriving?  (Read 38843 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 06, 2009, 01:11:11 PM »

In the late 1800's Former German Catholic priest JJ Overbeck tried to spread Orthodoxy into the West by allowing the West to keep its customs, but it didn't work.

The early Church of the Apostles was persecuted relentlessly, but it overcame the challenges and spread and flourished quickly.  Why isn't the Western Rite even nearly as successful?

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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2009, 03:22:45 PM »

I think that most people who love the Western Rite also love Western theology and thought patterns.  Why only go for half of the Western tradition, when the Roman Catholic Church has the whole thing?
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2009, 03:31:16 PM »

I think that most people who love the Western Rite also love Western theology and thought patterns.  Why only go for half of the Western tradition, when the Roman Catholic Church has the whole thing?
Besides, late 19th century was the height of American and British Anglo-Protestant hegemony. Why join a Church of the Slavic and Eastern peoples, when the cutting-edge future is (obviously Roll Eyes) in the hands of the Germanic sons of Reformation?
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2009, 03:45:46 PM »

Because nobody is aware of it. It feels like an utopia. If I'd meet my bishop and said that I want to start a WR mission he would probably be rather bewildered because he had never thought that Western Rite could still be possible.
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 04:18:42 PM »

In the late 1800's Former German Catholic priest JJ Overbeck tried to spread Orthodoxy into the West by allowing the West to keep its customs, but it didn't work.

The early Church of the Apostles was persecuted relentlessly, but it overcame the challenges and spread and flourished quickly.  Why isn't the Western Rite even nearly as successful?

K

For one thing, there wasn't a Church to absorb the Church of the Apostles.  The Czechoslovak Orthodox Church, for instance, was largely Western Rite but was absorbed by the Eastern Rite.  Ditto the WRO in Poland.

Then there is the hostility, from for instance the Greeks: they would rather see their less ethnic kin go to the Episcopal or Methodist churches than WRO. The OCA has also been quite hostile, another symptom of the myopia that plagued it and out of which it is emerging, the same myopia which helped create the Ukrainian problems here.

Couple that with the fear to 'offend' the Episcopalians or the Vatican that certain types like to pal around with, leading to the paralysis on this in Britain.

Then there is phyletism:The Nordic Catholic Church could have been WRO
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=15-06-054-i
the local Greek bishop, though, thought that would be bad because it would mean Orthodoxy was for Scandinavians.
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009, 06:52:26 PM »

I think this should be a top priority for the Orthodox Church today.

Unless the Patriarchs in power think converting Rome to Orthodoxy is easier...

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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2009, 06:54:25 PM »

Lack of organization? Lack of PR? Too early to tell I say.
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2009, 09:11:33 PM »

I think this should be a top priority for the Orthodox Church today.
Why?  Do you have a vested interest in seeing that the Orthodox Church follows a particular agenda?
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2009, 09:28:17 PM »

I think this should be a top priority for the Orthodox Church today.

Unless the Patriarchs in power think converting Rome to Orthodoxy is easier...

K

Why? What's wrong with the Eastern Rite?

Considering that the OCA's current Bishop is a convert from the Episcopalian/Anglican Church (as are many other Orthodox clergy in the US) it's obvious that a Westerner can adopt an Eastern mindset quite nicely.
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2009, 09:36:01 PM »

I think this should be a top priority for the Orthodox Church today.

Unless the Patriarchs in power think converting Rome to Orthodoxy is easier...

K

Why? What's wrong with the Eastern Rite?

Considering that the OCA's current Bishop is a convert from the Episcopalian/Anglican Church (as are many other Orthodox clergy in the US) it's obvious that a Westerner can adopt an Eastern mindset quite nicely.
If you are Eastern, nothing.

Can't answer for K's self-referenced importance: we use the Eastern Rite in China, Japan, Indonesia and India (would like to see more of the Mor Toma rites in the latter) and Africa (like to see the Alexandrian and Ethiopic rites more there). Why she thinks the West is more important I'll leave to her to answer.  Though I wish WRO was a higher priority, in the sense of acceptance and promotion.
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2009, 10:13:49 PM »

I have never been to a WR liturgy, but from what I've seen in the Internet, these liturgies look like Anglican liturgies.

These liturgies might attract former Anglicans but not Traditional Latin Christians because of some aspects of the liturgy itself (use of vulgar tongues, Anglican anthems, etc.).

The WR would probably be more succesful if they celebrated the liturgy in Latin (or at least part of it in Latin) and following the Latin tradition more closely.

In my country, an Orthodox Latin mass would be succesful if it's given propper promotion. However, the hierarchs would have to be careful so that this new mission doesn't cause confusion among the faithful or make others think that their church is a RC Church.
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2009, 11:02:00 PM »

I have never been to a WR liturgy, but from what I've seen in the Internet, these liturgies look like Anglican liturgies.

These liturgies might attract former Anglicans but not Traditional Latin Christians because of some aspects of the liturgy itself (use of vulgar tongues, Anglican anthems, etc.).

The WR would probably be more succesful if they celebrated the liturgy in Latin (or at least part of it in Latin) and following the Latin tradition more closely.

In my country, an Orthodox Latin mass would be succesful if it's given propper promotion. However, the hierarchs would have to be careful so that this new mission doesn't cause confusion among the faithful or make others think that their church is a RC Church.

Well yes, the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is based off the 1928 BCP Anglican liturgy but the Liturgy of St. Gregory is based off the Latin mass but done in the vernacular with some minor variations. And there is at least one WR parish in the US that does occasionally do the liturgy in Latin.
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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2009, 12:07:02 AM »

I have never been to a WR liturgy, but from what I've seen in the Internet, these liturgies look like Anglican liturgies.

These liturgies might attract former Anglicans but not Traditional Latin Christians because of some aspects of the liturgy itself (use of vulgar tongues, Anglican anthems, etc.).

The WR would probably be more succesful if they celebrated the liturgy in Latin (or at least part of it in Latin) and following the Latin tradition more closely.

In my country, an Orthodox Latin mass would be succesful if it's given propper promotion. However, the hierarchs would have to be careful so that this new mission doesn't cause confusion among the faithful or make others think that their church is a RC Church.
I've been to the DL of St. Gregory at Holy Incarnation in Detroit.  The Vatican's Latin mass has nothing on them.
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2009, 01:22:51 AM »

  The Vatican's Latin mass has nothing on them.

That tends to be true of most Catholic Masses. The RC pretty much gave up on beautiful liturgy after Vatican II. Now the Society of Saint Pius X they have beautiful Masses.
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 01:24:52 AM »

I think it would be good if the WR spread more. It would help to bring people into the fullness of the Orthodox faith who may have cold feet about going eastern.
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2009, 03:07:44 AM »

Does anyone have firsthand hearing Latin being used during WR liturgies?
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2009, 03:31:22 AM »

Does anyone have firsthand hearing Latin being used during WR liturgies?

Yup, at the Christminster monastery.
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2009, 03:34:23 AM »

I'd like to see that.  My interest is piqued.
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2009, 01:50:39 PM »

Does anyone have firsthand hearing Latin being used during WR liturgies?

Yup, at the Christminster monastery.
The website needs a little tweaking.
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« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2009, 02:18:05 PM »

Western rite missions and western rite parishes have, in general, a very short longevity.  A few do thrive such as St. Benedict of Nursia in Wichita Falls, TX which Bishop BASIL has endorsed as the epitome of WR parishes.

I've known a lot of people who have come from the WR parish in my town over to the Eastern Rite (Same jurisidiction--Antiochian).  Why?  The Eastern Rite seems to appeal to them more.  They like its "otherness" so to speak.  Also, I know a lot of people, both laypersons and priests, who suggest that when people convert to the fulness of the faith, they should also convert to the fullness of the rite (i.e. Eastern Rite).  It's a snobbish attitude, I feel.  ANd though I grew up in a church that used the western rite (in modified form) and still do like it, I feel most at home in the Eastern Rite.
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2009, 03:06:51 PM »

The website needs a little tweaking.

You mean a complete overhaul? Tongue

I know that for a while (maybe even still?) they were running two websites.  Neither of which were updated often.
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2009, 03:25:17 PM »

I think the problem is that to the average American it's the whole 'High Church' thing that's foreign and off-putting. It doesn't matter if it's a Greek Liturgy, a Tridentine Mass, or an Anglican High Mass, the structure and formalism is foreign from their religious experience. Those who like such formalism and structure generally will have no problem with an Eastern as opposed to Western liturgy. So while the western rite may appeal to a few High-Church Anglicans and maybe a very small handful of Lutherans, to the average American it's advocates claim to be targeting, it's just as foreign as an Eastern liturgy.
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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2009, 10:50:19 AM »

Can't answer for K's self-referenced importance: we use the Eastern Rite in China, Japan, Indonesia and India (would like to see more of the Mor Toma rites in the latter) and Africa (like to see the Alexandrian and Ethiopic rites more there). Why she thinks the West is more important I'll leave to her to answer.  Though I wish WRO was a higher priority, in the sense of acceptance and promotion.

When you say that you'd like to see the Alexandrian and Ethiopic rites more there, are you saying that they use these rites within the Eastern Orthodox Church and you'd like them to see it done more? I know Oriental Orthodox Church use these rites but are they used at all within the Eastern Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2009, 11:56:58 AM »

Can't answer for K's self-referenced importance: we use the Eastern Rite in China, Japan, Indonesia and India (would like to see more of the Mor Toma rites in the latter) and Africa (like to see the Alexandrian and Ethiopic rites more there). Why she thinks the West is more important I'll leave to her to answer.  Though I wish WRO was a higher priority, in the sense of acceptance and promotion.

When you say that you'd like to see the Alexandrian and Ethiopic rites more there, are you saying that they use these rites within the Eastern Orthodox Church and you'd like them to see it done more? I know Oriental Orthodox Church use these rites but are they used at all within the Eastern Orthodox Church?

No.  They were banned in c. 1200, by the never showed up Patriarch of Antioch, Balsamon.  The ban should be done away with.  Of course, reunion with the Copts would solve that.
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« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2009, 12:36:34 PM »

I think the problem is that to the average American it's the whole 'High Church' thing that's foreign and off-putting. It doesn't matter if it's a Greek Liturgy, a Tridentine Mass, or an Anglican High Mass, the structure and formalism is foreign from their religious experience. Those who like such formalism and structure generally will have no problem with an Eastern as opposed to Western liturgy. So while the western rite may appeal to a few High-Church Anglicans and maybe a very small handful of Lutherans, to the average American it's advocates claim to be targeting, it's just as foreign as an Eastern liturgy.

I never thought of that. The same would apply here I guess, especially in my state of New South Wales. There is only one High Anglican Church, the rest are all Low Church, and apart from High Mass at St. Mary's Cathedral Sydney, incense is something usually used only for funerals in Catholic Churches.
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2009, 01:29:55 PM »

I think the problem is that to the average American it's the whole 'High Church' thing that's foreign and off-putting. It doesn't matter if it's a Greek Liturgy, a Tridentine Mass, or an Anglican High Mass, the structure and formalism is foreign from their religious experience. Those who like such formalism and structure generally will have no problem with an Eastern as opposed to Western liturgy. So while the western rite may appeal to a few High-Church Anglicans and maybe a very small handful of Lutherans, to the average American it's advocates claim to be targeting, it's just as foreign as an Eastern liturgy.

Now that's an angle that I'd never think of... Thank you.
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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2009, 04:17:16 PM »

Can a "low church" liturgy be developed in Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2009, 04:26:14 PM »

Does anyone have firsthand hearing Latin being used during WR liturgies?
I do  - In the Liturgy of St. Germanus
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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2009, 04:49:33 PM »

Can a "low church" liturgy be developed in Orthodoxy?

As a convert from a determinedly 'low church' denomination, 'low church liturgy' sounds like an oxymoron to me. But what elements of low church worship are you thinking could be adopted into something Orthodox would recognize as worship?

And yes, I very much resemble GiC's point. I was born in America, descended from generations of devout American Protestants, and I usually stay out of Western-rite threads because I don't understand the impulse at all. To most of the Americans I know (including the Episcopalians and even a majority of the Roman Catholics under the age of 40), the kind of 'smells and bells' high church Anglicanism one occasionally sees on TV and which seems to be the 'type' of worship Western-riters are trying to integrate with Orthodoxy is just as alien and incomprehensible as a liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (assuming both are in English).

At least with the Eastern rite, we are generally surrounded and led by individuals who have practiced the rite all their life after receiving it from individuals who had practiced it all their life who had received, etc. The fact that Western rite isn't actually the BCP Rite, or the Tridentine rite, and its certainly not a pre-schism or an Eastern rite, results in it feeling somewhat like the 'pick and choose your taste' religion which was often the reason we started the journey that led to Orthodoxy in the first place.

(Sorry, I don't question the authority of our bishops to create a Western rite, and if it's been duly authorized by the responsible bishop I don't consider it my business how anyone else chooses to worship, but I think GiC captured the answer to the thread title so well that I wished to back it up with the POV of a 'typical' Western convert).
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2009, 01:09:08 AM »

Does anyone have firsthand hearing Latin being used during WR liturgies?
I do  - In the Liturgy of St. Germanus

Really? What was it like? Do you have pictures? I have read that liturgy so many times and it seems beautiful.

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« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2009, 11:23:26 AM »

Not that it matters much what I think, LOL, but I would love to see a thriving Western Rite in the EO Church free Byzantiumizations (made up word? LOL). It would demonstrate that being EO does not require some one to convert to a particular ethnicity.
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« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2009, 12:03:33 PM »

Not that it matters much what I think, LOL, but I would love to see a thriving Western Rite in the EO Church free Byzantiumizations (made up word? LOL). It would demonstrate that being EO does not require some one to convert to a particular ethnicity.


Whoever said it does?

Just ask Fr. Peter Gilquist, Fr. Patrick Reardon, Fr. James Bernstein, +Metropolitan JONAH, +Metrpolitan KALLISTOS, Frank Schaffer.... the list goes on and on, not to mention all of the converts I personally know that are of neither Middle Eastern, Greek, or Slavic background.

I mean, this would be the equivelant of saying you have to be Polish or Italian to be Catholic, when that's simply not true....everyone knows you have to be Irish. j/k  Tongue  Wink  laugh
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« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2009, 12:28:26 PM »


Really? What was it like? Do you have pictures? I have read that liturgy so many times and it seems beautiful.

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Actually, its quite difficult to say what it was like. I had very very little experience with liturgy when I attended (about 6 months ). It was the chapel in which I converted. I found it other-worldly, beautiful and slightly confusing (the chanting back and forth and changing books). We each had the books to go along, the priest's wife, one older man and I usually. Many more Psalms, the Book of Sirach and Wisdom, Latin, Greek, English mixed together. The Priest always took a considerable amount of time - in reverence, not rushing. Father George Y. is a good man and is grateful to be serving this rare liturgy. I can tell you where to go if you're interested. PM me
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« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2009, 12:21:30 PM »

The Czechoslovak Orthodox Church, for instance, was largely Western Rite but was absorbed by the Eastern Rite.  Ditto the WRO in Poland.

The failoure of WR in Poland was rather due the very man who began it, Fr. Andrzej Huszno, who made a journey from Roman Catholicism, through Old Catholicism and Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicsm once agian, with a Neo-Pagan episode at some point.
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« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2009, 12:51:29 PM »

The Czechoslovak Orthodox Church, for instance, was largely Western Rite but was absorbed by the Eastern Rite.  Ditto the WRO in Poland.

The failoure of WR in Poland was rather due the very man who began it, Fr. Andrzej Huszno, who made a journey from Roman Catholicism, through Old Catholicism and Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicsm once agian, with a Neo-Pagan episode at some point.
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« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2009, 04:00:54 PM »

I think we are about to see an interesting case study on the Western Rite. I know I will be keeping an eye on this because it is such an interesting situation that it may shed a lot of light on the viability of the Western Rite.

Here is the situation...

Evansville, IN - No significant Orthodox presence until this month when both Western and Eastern Rite missions will open. Both are under the Antiochian Archdiocese so there will be no issues with choosing between jurisdiction. Both are going to have their own pastor so there can't be any charge of favoritism by the pastor. The Western Rite will have an initial advantage in that it is an established community that is converting, where as the Eastern Rite will be a gathering of many different people, not sure which one will be larger at the start.

While I am sure they will not look at it as competition it will be interesting to see the growth and health of the two parishes over time. With all these factors and based on the location being so separated from mainstream Orthodoxy, if the Western Rite doesn't flourish here I am not sure where it will.
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« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2009, 04:03:49 PM »

I think we are about to see an interesting case study on the Western Rite. I know I will be keeping an eye on this because it is such an interesting situation that it may shed a lot of light on the viability of the Western Rite.

Here is the situation...

Evansville, IN - No significant Orthodox presence until this month when both Western and Eastern Rite missions will open. Both are under the Antiochian Archdiocese so there will be no issues with choosing between jurisdiction. Both are going to have their own pastor so there can't be any charge of favoritism by the pastor. The Western Rite will have an initial advantage in that it is an established community that is converting, where as the Eastern Rite will be a gathering of many different people, not sure which one will be larger at the start.

While I am sure they will not look at it as competition it will be interesting to see the growth and health of the two parishes over time. With all these factors and based on the location being so separated from mainstream Orthodoxy, if the Western Rite doesn't flourish here I am not sure where it will.

Do you have anymore infor (like contact, the name of the priest/parish, etc.)?
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« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2009, 04:09:48 PM »

Do you have anymore infor (like contact, the name of the priest/parish, etc.)?

Ohh sorry I meant to add this to end... http://www.antiochian.org/node/21634

Quote
Diocese of Toledo Adds Two New Missions

The Diocese of Toledo is in the process of starting two new missions in Evansville, Indiana. Information about the Western Rite Mission is available at: www.evansvillewesternorthodox.org. Renowned author and speaker The Very Rev. Fr. Michael D. Keiser, of the Department of Missions and Evangelism of the Antiochian Archdiocese, will be with the fledgling community on Sunday, December 20th, to begin the process of conversion to the Orthodox Church. The Eastern Rite parish is introducing itself at the address: www.evorthodox.weebly.com. Fr. Daniel Hackney and his family are in the process of moving to Evansville and services will commence soon thereafter.

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« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2009, 09:09:51 PM »

Back to the OP about why WR isn't thriving...maybe this isn't such an isolated incident. I hope it is.  Check out this WR church's website and notice what happens on Sundays at 9:30.


http://emmanuelorthodox.squarespace.com/weekly-schedule/
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« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2009, 09:57:23 PM »

Back to the OP about why WR isn't thriving...maybe this isn't such an isolated incident. I hope it is.  Check out this WR church's website and notice what happens on Sundays at 9:30.


http://emmanuelorthodox.squarespace.com/weekly-schedule/


I've only been to two WRO parishes, one in the south, one in the Great Lakes.  No contemporary praise.  I'd find it jolting between Matins and DL.
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« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2009, 10:13:26 PM »

Can a "low church" liturgy be developed in Orthodoxy?
Leaving out the dismissal of the catechumens and not closing the curtain during the Communion of the Clergy is about as low church as it gets in the Eastern Rite Churches.
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« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2009, 11:32:51 PM »

Back to the OP about why WR isn't thriving...maybe this isn't such an isolated incident. I hope it is.  Check out this WR church's website and notice what happens on Sundays at 9:30.


http://emmanuelorthodox.squarespace.com/weekly-schedule/


That looks really bad. I hope the local bishop will say something.

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Andrew
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« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2009, 12:07:00 AM »

Back to the OP about why WR isn't thriving...maybe this isn't such an isolated incident. I hope it is.  Check out this WR church's website and notice what happens on Sundays at 9:30.


http://emmanuelorthodox.squarespace.com/weekly-schedule/


I've only been to two WRO parishes, one in the south, one in the Great Lakes.  No contemporary praise.  I'd find it jolting between Matins and DL.

Nothing wrong with Contemporary worship. Contemporary for the 4th Century that is. Wink
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« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2009, 03:39:09 AM »

I'm not sure what the OP means by "thriving." Is it that people are "converting in droves?" I don't see that with Eastern Rite parishes, despite the frequent publicity. There is, supposedly, a 50% convert drop out rate, anyway. If you look at how many ER parishes there are, and how few WR parishes there are, how misunderstood, not well known, marginalized, etc., it seems like nothing unusual. Actually, the number of WR rite churches has greatly increased in the last few years, especially in America. And the interest is not just among former Anglicans, and not just in the Antiochian Archdiocese. Actually, the WR is gaining global interest, with churches in New Zealand, Canada, and large interest in Britain. It looks like the general trend is for growth.
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« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2009, 03:54:46 AM »

Welcome to the forum.   Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2009, 04:06:58 AM »

...the WR is gaining global interest, with churches in New Zealand, Canada, and large interest in Britain. It looks like the general trend is for growth.

WELCOME to the Forum, Shanghaiski!

Speaking as a New Zealander who knows both of the Antiochian WR missions in this country the situation is anything but growth.    The Antiochian Orthodox mission parish in the South Island (Christchurch) - operating for over 30 years with a very enthusiastic and capable priest.   Number of parishioners: 2.

The Antiochian Orthodox mission parish in the North Island (Wellington) - operating 7 years with one priest and (since last month) a deacon.  Number of parishioners: 4.

Both these priests are highly motivated and educated but the missionary effort is not, so far, showing any results.
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« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2009, 04:14:11 AM »

Wow. I didn't know that. Here in the U.S., most WR parishes are begun by parishes coming into Orthodoxy, not by mission churches, and we've added several parishes in the last years. Perhaps one advantage the ER has here is that it is different. This can be a bit of a disadvantage, too, however, because there are, let's face it, people who are attracted less to Christ and the Gospel than to the exotic ritual or the esoteric theology expressed in lengthy poetic hymnography which may or may not be sung in a strange, possibly dead language, with or without four-part harmony, maybe or maybe not by a man who appears to be imitating a camel (nearly did that myself this morning singing the canon).
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« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2009, 04:32:43 AM »

Shanghaiski, if you click ion the "Western Rite" tag at the bottom left of the page it will bring up links to previous discussions of the Western Rite on the Forum.
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« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2010, 03:18:49 PM »

When I first heard about the Western Rite, it sounded like a great idea to me. If these rites are truly a lost part of our Orthodox heritage, it could only be a good thing to bring them back, right? Looking into the issue, though, it seems that WR often has a tinge of ethnocentrism. How many WR enthusiasts have this assumption that "I'm of Western European descent, therefore I should have a Western European liturgy." There seems to be a lurking assumption that the Byzantine rite is "ethnic", as if Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, and Romanians are somehow ethnically unified.

I still think WR could be useful as a missionary tool, for example, as a way to ease the conversion of Anglicans or Roman Catholics. But I think we really need to stridently reject the idea that every cultural or ethnic group should have its own rite.
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« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2010, 03:46:22 PM »

When I first heard about the Western Rite, it sounded like a great idea to me. If these rites are truly a lost part of our Orthodox heritage, it could only be a good thing to bring them back, right? Looking into the issue, though, it seems that WR often has a tinge of ethnocentrism.

Then they should fit right in.

Quote
How many WR enthusiasts have this assumption that "I'm of Western European descent, therefore I should have a Western European liturgy." There seems to be a lurking assumption that the Byzantine rite is "ethnic", as if Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, and Romanians are somehow ethnically unified.

They're all Eastern.  There's a difference.

Quote
I still think WR could be useful as a missionary tool, for example, as a way to ease the conversion of Anglicans or Roman Catholics. But I think we really need to stridently reject the idea that every cultural or ethnic group should have its own rite.

Like the Greeks imposed on the non-Greeks of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem?
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« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2010, 03:54:37 PM »

I still think WR could be useful as a missionary tool, for example, as a way to ease the conversion of Anglicans or Roman Catholics. But I think we really need to stridently reject the idea that every cultural or ethnic group should have its own rite.

So the WR should follow the path of reverse Uniatism as espoused by, say, Fr. Adrian Fortescue, who believed that the Eastern Rites of the Roman Catholic Church should merely be "stepping stones" for the people who follow such rites to eventually become Latin ritualists?
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« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2010, 03:59:36 PM »

I still think WR could be useful as a missionary tool, for example, as a way to ease the conversion of Anglicans or Roman Catholics. But I think we really need to stridently reject the idea that every cultural or ethnic group should have its own rite.

So the WR should follow the path of reverse Uniatism as espoused by, say, Fr. Adrian Fortescue, who believed that the Eastern Rites of the Roman Catholic Church should merely be "stepping stones" for the people who follow such rites to eventually become Latin ritualists?
Yes, that would be reversed uniatism. Besides a shame.
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« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2010, 04:02:45 PM »

When I first heard about the Western Rite, it sounded like a great idea to me. If these rites are truly a lost part of our Orthodox heritage, it could only be a good thing to bring them back, right? Looking into the issue, though, it seems that WR often has a tinge of ethnocentrism.

Then they should fit right in.

Not arguing with you here... but is existing ethnocentrism (in some quarters) an excuse for more of it?

Quote
How many WR enthusiasts have this assumption that "I'm of Western European descent, therefore I should have a Western European liturgy." There seems to be a lurking assumption that the Byzantine rite is "ethnic", as if Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, and Romanians are somehow ethnically unified.

They're all Eastern. 

Which, like "Oriental," is a meaningless label apart from geography. It says nothing about language, culture, or ethnicity.

Quote
I still think WR could be useful as a missionary tool, for example, as a way to ease the conversion of Anglicans or Roman Catholics. But I think we really need to stridently reject the idea that every cultural or ethnic group should have its own rite.

Like the Greeks imposed on the non-Greeks of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem?

That's unfortunately true. However, an artificial diversity is not the solution to an artificial unity (which, over the centuries, has become a natural unity).
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« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2010, 04:04:22 PM »

I still think WR could be useful as a missionary tool, for example, as a way to ease the conversion of Anglicans or Roman Catholics. But I think we really need to stridently reject the idea that every cultural or ethnic group should have its own rite.

So the WR should follow the path of reverse Uniatism as espoused by, say, Fr. Adrian Fortescue, who believed that the Eastern Rites of the Roman Catholic Church should merely be "stepping stones" for the people who follow such rites to eventually become Latin ritualists?

No, I think they should keep the WR indefinitely. It's just that it shouldn't be implemented on the basis of ethnicity.
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« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2010, 04:44:02 PM »

When I first heard about the Western Rite, it sounded like a great idea to me. If these rites are truly a lost part of our Orthodox heritage, it could only be a good thing to bring them back, right? Looking into the issue, though, it seems that WR often has a tinge of ethnocentrism.

Then they should fit right in.

Not arguing with you here... but is existing ethnocentrism (in some quarters) an excuse for more of it?

Not a reason for selective suppression of it either.

How many WR enthusiasts have this assumption that "I'm of Western European descent, therefore I should have a Western European liturgy." There seems to be a lurking assumption that the Byzantine rite is "ethnic", as if Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, and Romanians are somehow ethnically unified.

They're all Eastern. 

Which, like "Oriental," is a meaningless label apart from geography. It says nothing about language, culture, or ethnicity.

Yes, it does: go to the Diocletian line in the Balkans, and it is palpable.  None of the Western nations have the diglossia situation so common (nearly universal) in the East.  In the West, the Vulgate was to bring the text into conformity to present day speech.  In the East, the only revision in ancient times of the Bible was to Atticize/Classicize the Koine.  It's a difference that has been around a while.

I still think WR could be useful as a missionary tool, for example, as a way to ease the conversion of Anglicans or Roman Catholics. But I think we really need to stridently reject the idea that every cultural or ethnic group should have its own rite.

Like the Greeks imposed on the non-Greeks of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem?

That's unfortunately true. However, an artificial diversity is not the solution to an artificial unity (which, over the centuries, has become a natural unity).
You first have to show that the diversity doesn't exist.  Lots of luck.
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« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2010, 08:25:30 PM »

When I first heard about the Western Rite, it sounded like a great idea to me. If these rites are truly a lost part of our Orthodox heritage, it could only be a good thing to bring them back, right? Looking into the issue, though, it seems that WR often has a tinge of ethnocentrism.

Then they should fit right in.

Not arguing with you here... but is existing ethnocentrism (in some quarters) an excuse for more of it?

Not a reason for selective suppression of it either.

Which I never argued for, but okay.


Quote
Which, like "Oriental," is a meaningless label apart from geography. It says nothing about language, culture, or ethnicity.

Yes, it does: go to the Diocletian line in the Balkans, and it is palpable.  None of the Western nations have the diglossia situation so common (nearly universal) in the East.  In the West, the Vulgate was to bring the text into conformity to present day speech.  In the East, the only revision in ancient times of the Bible was to Atticize/Classicize the Koine.  It's a difference that has been around a while.

And how is this relevant to the question of the Western Rite?

Quote
I still think WR could be useful as a missionary tool, for example, as a way to ease the conversion of Anglicans or Roman Catholics. But I think we really need to stridently reject the idea that every cultural or ethnic group should have its own rite.

Like the Greeks imposed on the non-Greeks of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem?

That's unfortunately true. However, an artificial diversity is not the solution to an artificial unity (which, over the centuries, has become a natural unity).
You first have to show that the diversity doesn't exist.  Lots of luck.

The diversity doesn't exist because only a tiny minority of Orthodox parishes use anything but the Byzantine rite.
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« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2010, 11:18:27 PM »

I still think WR could be useful as a missionary tool, for example, as a way to ease the conversion of Anglicans or Roman Catholics. But I think we really need to stridently reject the idea that every cultural or ethnic group should have its own rite.
The reality is that the Western Rite liturgy is just as foreign to most Anglicans and Roman Catholics as the Byzantine Rite liturgy is. Most Roman Catholics under the age of 40 have never been in a traditional Roman Rite service and instead their only exposure is post Vatican II revisions. Modern American worship for the vast majority has been reduced to singing a few songs and drinking some wine so even the Western Rite seems hooky and old fashioned. Those who are looking to convert may be respectful of the Western Rite but often times they are looking for a total cut from their old life and tradition so they prefer the Byzantine style of worship because of it being radically different.
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« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2010, 01:13:00 AM »

Which, like "Oriental," is a meaningless label apart from geography. It says nothing about language, culture, or ethnicity.

Yes, it does: go to the Diocletian line in the Balkans, and it is palpable.  None of the Western nations have the diglossia situation so common (nearly universal) in the East.  In the West, the Vulgate was to bring the text into conformity to present day speech.  In the East, the only revision in ancient times of the Bible was to Atticize/Classicize the Koine.  It's a difference that has been around a while.

And how is this relevant to the question of the Western Rite?

Because East and West are NOT meaninglesss in language, culture or ethnicity.  And not in the Church.
I still think WR could be useful as a missionary tool, for example, as a way to ease the conversion of Anglicans or Roman Catholics. But I think we really need to stridently reject the idea that every cultural or ethnic group should have its own rite.

Like the Greeks imposed on the non-Greeks of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem?

That's unfortunately true. However, an artificial diversity is not the solution to an artificial unity (which, over the centuries, has become a natural unity).
You first have to show that the diversity doesn't exist.  Lots of luck.

The diversity doesn't exist because only a tiny minority of Orthodox parishes use anything but the Byzantine rite.

Only a tiny minority of the Orthodox live in the West, and an even tinier minority recognizes that they live in the West.  Btw, not all WRO are converts, nor do they all originally come from Western ethnicities: some just face that they are Westernized, and act accordingly.
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« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2010, 01:33:03 AM »

some just face that they are Westernized, and act accordingly.

This line of argumentation makes no sense to me. The only way I could be more "Western" or "Westernized" is if I had remained in the heterodox church I was raised in. Are you trying to claim that I should 'act accordingly' and find a more natural home in the Western rite?
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« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2010, 01:40:35 AM »

some just face that they are Westernized, and act accordingly.

This line of argumentation makes no sense to me. The only way I could be more "Western" or "Westernized" is if I had remained in the heterodox church I was raised in. Are you trying to claim that I should 'act accordingly' and find a more natural home in the Western rite?
I'm just saying what others did.
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« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2010, 01:41:00 AM »

My opinion is that most of the Roman rite can be retained when a community of that rite enters  one of the Orthodox churches. I would never say the same thing about the Anglican stuff some want to take into the OC, as if it were on the same level with the Roman rite, and not a Reformation product.
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« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2010, 01:59:49 AM »

I would never say the same thing about the Anglican stuff some want to take into the OC, as if it were on the same level with the Roman rite, and not a Reformation product.

A good answer to this:
Quote
Oops; The "Cranmerian" Liturgy of St. Tikhon Addendum

In reviewing my recent post on how some critics of the Western Rite refer to it as the "Cranmerian Rite," I realized I had omitted the most important section. True, Thomas Cranmer did not draft the Book of Common Prayer alone, but:

Most importantly, St. Tikhon's Liturgy is not simply the "Book of Common Prayer" rite. The Orthodox Church adapted this material in accordance with the Russian Observations Upon the American Prayer Book to bring it into liturgical and theological conformity with Holy Orthodoxy. Not only were these necessary changes made, but the liturgical commission of the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate added rich ceremonial and prayers expressing the Church's liturgical heritage, especially reverence for the Real Presence. Similar to the Anglo-Catholic movement of the day, it incorporated the Western structure of the Mass. Asperges, Introits, graduals, alleluias, tracts, sequences, offertory prayers, prayers at the foot of the altar, communion verses, post-communion prayers, Agnus Deis, Non Sum Dignuses, Last Gospels, and other devotions reappeared where the Protestant Reformation had done its damage, and the Gloria returned to its traditional position: following the Kyrie on most Sundays (outside certain penitential seasons). This was a full, glorious, comprehensive, catholic, Apostolic, and Orthodox liturgy.

No honest human being could describe this as "The Book of Common Prayer." Although Anglo-Catholics would recognize it, and most Western Christians feel an instant and familiar sense of worship while praying it, St. Tikhon's Liturgy far exceeded any edition of the BCP, whatever Cranmer's role in drafting any particular rendition thereof. In other words, describing the Liturgy of St. Tikhon as "Cranmer's Rite" is like describing the United States of America as "Jamestown."

Remember the fallacious logic, the faulty premise, and the blatant misrepresentation the next time you hear St. Tikhon's Liturgy described only as "the Cranmerian Rite," a charge born either of historical ignorance or ecclesiastical envy.
Source: http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/03/oops-cranmerian-liturgy-of-st-tikhon.html

Similar things can be said about the ROCOR's English Liturgy.
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« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2010, 02:30:11 AM »

Then I still do not understand why should former Anglicans maintain a rite that is different from the Roman rite and still connected to the Protestant Reformation, however tenuously ?
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't grant them that.
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« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2010, 02:37:21 AM »

Then I still do not understand why should former Anglicans maintain a rite that is different from the Roman rite and still connected to the Protestant Reformation, however tenuously ?
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't grant them that.
What's so sancrosanct about the Roman rite?  Not even the Vatican is that it extreme, and has others (Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Gallican etc.)
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« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2010, 02:39:38 AM »

Then I still do not understand why should former Anglicans maintain a rite that is different from the Roman rite and still connected to the Protestant Reformation, however tenuously ?

What they wanted to maintain, were not the connections to the Reformation, but to the Englishness.
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« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2010, 02:40:27 AM »

Then I still do not understand why should former Anglicans maintain a rite that is different from the Roman rite and still connected to the Protestant Reformation, however tenuously ?
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't grant them that.
What's so sancrosanct about the Roman rite?  Not even the Vatican is that it extreme, and has others (Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Gallican etc.)
It goes without saying that these other occidental rites that you mentioned are also acceptable. My contention is with a rite "reformed" then "mended" to fit into Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2010, 03:07:51 AM »

Then I still do not understand why should former Anglicans maintain a rite that is different from the Roman rite and still connected to the Protestant Reformation, however tenuously ?
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't grant them that.
What's so sancrosanct about the Roman rite?  Not even the Vatican is that it extreme, and has others (Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Gallican etc.)
It goes without saying that these other occidental rites that you mentioned are also acceptable. My contention is with a rite "reformed" then "mended" to fit into Orthodoxy.
And you think the others didn't go through any "reformation?"
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« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2010, 03:10:22 AM »

Of course they din, but those were not THE reformation.
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« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2010, 04:21:42 AM »


With reference to the question as to why the WRO is not thriving, I could be wrong, but my personal opinion is that it is because the Orthodox offer the WR as a concession and do not accept it fully  on equal footing with the Eastern Divine Liturgy.
Anyway, a few questions come to mind on the WR:
1. Does the WRO Church accept baptism by pouring on the forehead (not triple immersion)?
2. Does the WRO accept uncoverted  Roman Catholics to Communion?
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« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2010, 05:38:01 AM »

My contention is with a rite "reformed" then "mended" to fit into Orthodoxy.

I'm not St Tikhon's Liturgy (AWRV) expert, but as far as the English Liturgy (ROCOR) is concerned:
Quote
English liturgy (primarily Sarum with a handful of items from the Non-Juror liturgy, Gothic, York.. or following the wording of the 1549 BCP in a few instances)
Source: http://theyorkforum.yuku.com/sreply/12977/t/Western-Rite-Orthodox-News.html
Quote
It is important to remember, when looking at the Sarum Liturgy that it is essentially a pre-Schism Liturgy which had continued to develop as the predominant Liturgy  beyond the Great Schism.
Source: http://orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/index.htm#THE%20ROOTS

1. Does the WRO Church accept baptism by pouring on the forehead (not triple immersion)?

Not the ROCOR:

Source: http://launcestonorthodox.blogspot.com

I don't know how is it with the Patriarchates of Antioch, Serbia and Moscow.

2. Does the WRO accept uncoverted  Roman Catholics to Communion?

No.
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« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2010, 05:49:32 AM »

double post
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« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2010, 06:46:31 AM »

Another quotation proving that the English Liturgy isn't a Protestant sevice:
Quote
The English Liturgy is primarily based on the Sarum rite (including the Sarum canon) with some items from one BCP - the 1549 'Catholic' version [...] but not from any other BCP besides the original 1549. Those who do follow the BCP do not see it as a BCP or 'Anglican service'.
Source: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sarum_Use/Archive_2#ROCOR_English_Liturgy
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« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2010, 08:04:32 AM »

1. Does the WRO Church accept baptism by pouring on the forehead (not triple immersion)?

Yes, I have seen this done by an Antiochian WR priest with a baby.

Quote
2. Does the WRO accept uncoverted  Roman Catholics to Communion?

Yes, both WR priests of the Antiochian Church in this country routinely commune Catholics  and Anglicans.  I have witnessed this myself and I have been present when one of them was reprimanded by the Greek Metropolitan for doing this.
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« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2010, 08:42:49 AM »

Yes, both WR priests of the Antiochian Church in this country routinely commune Catholics  and Anglicans.

 Shocked

Here is a description of a completely different approach:
Quote
I [i.e., an Anglican] inquired about receiving communion [in the ROCOR's Oratory of Our Lady of Glastonbury, Hamilton, Canada] and was told that I was welcome to receive a blessing. [...] The saddest manifestation of our Christian faith is the fact that we cannot all join as one around the altar of the Lord. [...] Meanwhile, I must say that my irregular status was handled with acute pastoral panache.
Source: http://www.ship-of-fools.com/mystery/2008/1573.html
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« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2010, 09:48:15 AM »

some just face that they are Westernized, and act accordingly.

This line of argumentation makes no sense to me. The only way I could be more "Western" or "Westernized" is if I had remained in the heterodox church I was raised in. Are you trying to claim that I should 'act accordingly' and find a more natural home in the Western rite?
I'm just saying what others did.

It's nonsensical. One may as well argue for a separate Romanian rite, a separate Georgian rite, a separate Russian rite, etc.
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« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2010, 11:56:57 AM »

It's nonsensical. One may as well argue for a separate Romanian rite, a separate Georgian rite, a separate Russian rite, etc.

As far, as I know, there where no such rites in the past. But the faithful of the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem can argue for separate rites for them, as they used to have them, up to some point.
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« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2010, 11:57:34 AM »

It's nonsensical.
Quote
One may as well argue for a separate Romanian rite, a separate Georgian rite, a separate Russian rite, etc.
Actually, the Georgians probably used, in the very distant past another rite than the one of Constantinople, probably a Syrian/Antiochian one;(Proto) Romanians too, based on linguistic evidence, most likely used a western sort of rite-perhaps of the Gallic family-only receiving the Constantinopolitan rite after the settlement of the Slavs in the Balkans and the surrounding areas.
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« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2010, 12:03:36 PM »

It's interesting that the Western Rite is found primarily in America: a country that was not Orthodox until the coming of Russian missionaries, and which cannot lay claim to any particular ancient rite.
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« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2010, 12:10:51 PM »

American people though, come from somewhere, don't they?
Most of them from NW Europe.
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« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2010, 12:20:08 PM »

Unless there is some sort of genetic predisposition to certain rites, I don't think it really matters where their ancestors came from.
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« Reply #80 on: January 05, 2010, 12:22:34 PM »

Genetic not, but cultural and historical yes.
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« Reply #81 on: January 05, 2010, 12:24:54 PM »

American people though, come from somewhere, don't they?
Most of them from NW Europe.

And over 70% of those come from non-liturgical churches.
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« Reply #82 on: January 05, 2010, 01:00:10 PM »


With reference to the question as to why the WRO is not thriving, I could be wrong, but my personal opinion is that it is because the Orthodox offer the WR as a concession and do not accept it fully  on equal footing with the Eastern Divine Liturgy.
Anyway, a few questions come to mind on the WR:
1. Does the WRO Church accept baptism by pouring on the forehead (not triple immersion)?
2. Does the WRO accept uncoverted  Roman Catholics to Communion?
I've seen both happen in Eastern Rite Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2010, 06:27:02 AM »

My best guess for the only modest growth of the Western Rite is its lack of visibility due to mixed feelings about its very existence (as witnessed by the posts in this very thread).

For those that are saying the Western Rite is some kind of "special treatment", remember that the liturgies of the Latin West were once Orthodox in every way, and were in many ways complimentary to the Byzantine rite. I personally think its a noble effort to attempt to revive it for those of Western European descent who wish to worship in the same way as their ancestors did (at least, that's part of my attraction to the rite). Granted, I'd love to see more of the Sarum Rite and other more authentic ancient liturgies, rather than that of St. Tikhon, but at the same time, most proponents of Western Orthodoxy are trying to revive a rite, not create a new one.
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« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2010, 09:06:59 PM »

American people though, come from somewhere, don't they?
Most of them from NW Europe.

"American people" are from the USA for the most part.  However, many of their ancestors came from a lot of places and not just NW Europe.  Plenty of them came from Eastern Europe, the Mediterranean countries, the middle east, the Asian countries and, of course, Africa.  The history of immigration to North American is quite varied and interesting and not just from one part of one continent.

Ebor
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« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2010, 09:10:36 PM »

American people though, come from somewhere, don't they?
Most of them from NW Europe.

"American people" are from the USA for the most part.  However, many of their ancestors came from a lot of places and not just NW Europe.  Plenty of them came from Eastern Europe, the Mediterranean countries, the middle east, the Asian countries and, of course, Africa.  The history of immigration to North American is quite varied and interesting and not just from one part of one continent.

Ebor

That may be true, but irrelevant: the majority come from NW Europe overwhelming (the WASP types), and the culture is dominated by this heritage.  The Vatican's flock here, for instance, are still referred to as a minority although they are the largest single religious block, and the majority in plenty of places in the US, particularly the urban centers.
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« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2010, 09:22:39 PM »

American people though, come from somewhere, don't they?
Most of them from NW Europe.

"American people" are from the USA for the most part.  However, many of their ancestors came from a lot of places and not just NW Europe.  Plenty of them came from Eastern Europe, the Mediterranean countries, the middle east, the Asian countries and, of course, Africa.  The history of immigration to North American is quite varied and interesting and not just from one part of one continent.

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As Ialmisry said, it is the offspring of the NW Europeans that dominate the history, culture and even politics of this country; The Episcopalians I've heard them referred to as "the withest religion".
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« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2010, 09:31:58 PM »

What is the "withest religion"?  Huh You mean, as in the most "with it"?  Undecided
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« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2010, 09:39:28 PM »

I'm not sure what it means, either.  But it feels like a jab at my Church.   Undecided

American history is still more complicated then just "NW Europe".

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« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2010, 09:51:56 PM »

 I meant 'whitest". Mea culpa.
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« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2010, 09:12:20 AM »

Yes, both WR priests of the Antiochian Church in this country routinely commune Catholics  and Anglicans.

Yet another description of a completely different approach:
Quote
How to Participate Without Receiving Communion

Communion is regarded as the ultimate expression of unity between those who share the faith, discipline and order of the Orthodox Church. Accordingly, it is given only to Orthodox Christians. Other persons attending the service, such as inquirers, visitors, catechumens, or family members who are not Orthodox, may come forward at the time of communion to receive a blessing. Orthodox may also do this when, for whatever reason, they are not taking the sacrament.

To receive a blessing, come up to the altar at the proper time, along with everyone else. Fold your arms across the chest in X-fashion. In the Western tradition, this indicates that you are not receiving the sacrament. When the priest reaches you, he will give you a blessing, making the sign of the cross on your head. After you receive the blessing, return to your seat.

It goes without saying that one should pay absolutely no attention to who is receiving the sacrament and who is abstaining.

Non-Orthodox may also receive the eulogiae or pain benit. This is bread which has been blessed, but not consecrated (Eastern Rite parishioners may recognize a similarity to the Antidoron distributed at Byzantine services). Dating back at least to the 6th century, the custom of giving out blessed bread to non-communicants was prevalent in England, France and Germany. The English Sarum liturgy, an inspiration for the Orthodox liturgy of St. Tikhon, contains a specific prayer to bless the eulogiae. Western rite parishes use this prayer today. The blessed bread custom survived in some locations into the 20th century, but had largely died out until its restoration to the West through our Archdiocese's Western Orthodox parishes. It is a kind and helpful custom for today, since persons who do not share our understanding of communion might otherwise feel uncomfortable at not being able to receive the sacrament.
Source: http://www.westernorthodox.com/customs
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« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2010, 09:16:20 PM »

I meant 'whitest". Mea culpa.

I'm not sure what skin color has to do with things, but no, it isn't.  The bishop of Maryland, for example, is the Right Reverend Eugene Taylor Sutton:  http://www.ang-md.org/bishops.php for a picture.

Absolom Jones was the first African American Anglican priest in 1804.
http://www.episcopalarchives.org/Afro-Anglican_history/exhibit/leadership/jones.php

Washington, DC had the Rt. Rev. John T. Walker as a suffragan bishop, then it's bishop co-adjutor and final the diocesan bishop (1971-1989)

http://www.episcopalarchives.org/Afro-Anglican_history/exhibit/leadership/walker.php

Two areas of the US that have a large percentage of episcopalians are on reservations out west and we have a Diocese of Navajoland.

On a global scale here is a photo of the primates of the various members of the Anglican Communion from a meeting in 2005, which I've posted a link to before:
http://www.aco.org/_userfiles/Image/full/acns3945f.jpg

And the Archbishop of York at present is the The Most Reverend and Right Honourable Dr John Sentamu, who was born in Uganda:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sentamu

It is said that the "average" Anglican is an African woman in her 20s-30s with children going by the various factors of age, sex, location, etc.

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« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2010, 03:41:17 AM »

Setback for Western Rite in England.  WR Services have ceased at the Russian London cathedral

Notification is here
http://elyforum.yuku.com/reply/2495/t/Western-Rite-in-England.html#reply-2495





Today (18 January) is the commemoration of St. Dicuil of Lure
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« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2010, 03:50:26 AM »

Setback for Western Rite in England.  WR Services have ceased at the Russian London cathedral

A shame.  Sad  "'undermine' their service", what a joke.
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« Reply #94 on: January 18, 2010, 03:55:14 AM »

Setback for Western Rite in England.  WR Services have ceased at the Russian London cathedral

A shame.  Sad  "'undermine' their service", what a joke.


Is it possible that the WR community and its leaders in London have offended the bishop and the cathedral clergy in some way?   One remembers that the leaders of the Anglo-Catholic Movement prided themselves on their pro-active (read aggressive) attitude towards bishops in getting Roman customs into the Anglican Church

WR English people would be aware of this much vaunted bolshie attitude by Anglo-Catholics and may be adopting a similar atttitude in promoting WR?

Well, it's a thought.....
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« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2010, 03:21:00 AM »

I think I will attend a WR liturgy next Sunday.  I'll let u guys know how it goes.
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« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2010, 09:50:09 PM »

Yes, both WR priests of the Antiochian Church in this country routinely commune Catholics  and Anglicans.  I have witnessed this myself and I have been present when one of them was reprimanded by the Greek Metropolitan for doing this.

Quote
I've seen both happen in Eastern Rite Orthodox Churches.

How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.
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« Reply #97 on: January 20, 2010, 10:53:36 PM »

How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.

Don't get discouraged by hearsay.
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« Reply #98 on: January 20, 2010, 11:37:59 PM »

Quote from: Andrew21091 link=topic=24765.msg400269#msg400269
How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.

America and other non-Orthodox countries are the only places where you have such a choice to begin with. If you lived in an Orthodox country, you would be stuck with the local jurisdiction. The 15 or so local Orthodox churches all make up one Church of Christ.A problem in the Church of Antioch is a concern for the whole Church regardless of which jurisdiction you happen to belong to.
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« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2010, 12:11:27 AM »

So what ever happened to the situation in Evansville?
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« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2010, 12:28:49 AM »

So what ever happened to the situation in Evansville?

Here's a link to their website but it doesn't really have much info at all about them other than that Evansville is going to have a western rite Orthodox church:
http://www.evansvillewesternorthodox.org/

The news article about Evansville having eastern and western rite parishes used to be on the Antiochian western rite section of the Archdiocese website but for some reason they took it off.
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« Reply #101 on: February 16, 2010, 05:55:24 PM »

Quote from: Andrew21091 link=topic=24765.msg400269#msg400269
How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.

America and other non-Orthodox countries are the only places where you have such a choice to begin with. If you lived in an Orthodox country, you would be stuck with the local jurisdiction. The 15 or so local Orthodox churches all make up one Church of Christ.A problem in the Church of Antioch is a concern for the whole Church regardless of which jurisdiction you happen to belong to.

Very well said Orthodox11.
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« Reply #102 on: February 16, 2010, 06:09:27 PM »

Yes, both WR priests of the Antiochian Church in this country routinely commune Catholics  and Anglicans.  I have witnessed this myself and I have been present when one of them was reprimanded by the Greek Metropolitan for doing this.

Quote
I've seen both happen in Eastern Rite Orthodox Churches.

How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.

I think we need to keep in mind, before we start super-correcting ourselves, that such problems are not new to the Church; whether from isolation, ignorance, or willful disobedience, these things have probably happened throughout the Church's history but have not destroyed her.
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« Reply #103 on: February 16, 2010, 08:07:44 PM »

Quote from: Andrew21091 link=topic=24765.msg400269#msg400269
How terrible. Sometimes I wonder why I choose to stay in the Antiochian Church.

America and other non-Orthodox countries are the only places where you have such a choice to begin with. If you lived in an Orthodox country, you would be stuck with the local jurisdiction. The 15 or so local Orthodox churches all make up one Church of Christ.A problem in the Church of Antioch is a concern for the whole Church regardless of which jurisdiction you happen to belong to.

What do you mean?
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« Reply #104 on: February 16, 2010, 08:23:43 PM »

What do you mean?

I mean that a problem in the Church of Antioch is a problem for the whole Orthodox Church, just as a problem in the churches of Constantinople, or Moscow, or Alexandria is the problem of the entire Orthodox Church.

Jumping from one jurisdiction to another because of a particular local problem 1) undermines the universality of the Church, that all are members of the same Body of Christ, and 2) is possible only in countries where there exist overlapping jurisdictions in breach of the canons.
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« Reply #105 on: February 16, 2010, 08:32:10 PM »

What do you mean?

I mean that a problem in the Church of Antioch is a problem for the whole Orthodox Church, just as a problem in the churches of Constantinople, or Moscow, or Alexandria is the problem of the entire Orthodox Church.

Jumping from one jurisdiction to another because of a particular local problem 1) undermines the universality of the Church, that all are members of the same Body of Christ, and 2) is possible only in countries where there exist overlapping jurisdictions in breach of the canons.
Ah, gotcha.
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« Reply #106 on: March 03, 2010, 02:51:16 PM »

The Evansville Western Rite Mission is now defunct:  http://www.evansvillewesternorthodox.org/
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« Reply #107 on: March 03, 2010, 04:14:09 PM »

The Evansville Western Rite Mission is now defunct:  http://www.evansvillewesternorthodox.org/


Do you know what happened?
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« Reply #108 on: March 10, 2010, 11:50:35 PM »

The Evansville Western Rite Mission is now defunct:  http://www.evansvillewesternorthodox.org/


Do you know what happened?

Does anyone know what happened? Beuller?... Beuller?...Beuller?...
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« Reply #109 on: March 21, 2010, 11:56:39 PM »


Sunday, March 21, 2010
New Western Rite Abbot

I discovered on Tuesday, March 16, 2010, that Fr. Hieromonk David (Pierce) has been confirmed in the rank of Abbot by Metropolitan Hilarion, first hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Dom David's community, formerly named Holyrood after the Holy Cross, now bears the name "Dormition Monastery."

Source :: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2010, 05:29:50 AM »

I think this should be a top priority for the Orthodox Church today.

Unless the Patriarchs in power think converting Rome to Orthodoxy is easier...

K

Why? What's wrong with the Eastern Rite?

Considering that the OCA's current Bishop is a convert from the Episcopalian/Anglican Church (as are many other Orthodox clergy in the US) it's obvious that a Westerner can adopt an Eastern mindset quite nicely.
dont know about that. ive brought a few catholic friends to liturgy and why they all agree its beautiful they still cant get over the fact that we stand in liturgy  most of the time. catholics like to sit down a lot for their church services.  even for the gospel.  they also get dizzy from too much crossing & bowing.  and most of them dont really even know how to cross. they do it backwards.  lolz!

they do love the theotokos tho. so i guess thats cool. ^_^
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« Reply #111 on: March 22, 2010, 05:37:22 AM »

Yes, both WR priests of the Antiochian Church in this country routinely commune Catholics  and Anglicans.  I have witnessed this myself and I have been present when one of them was reprimanded by the Greek Metropolitan for doing this.
wow. perhaps its because catholic churches give communion to whoever gets in line?  i do think this is strictly an american phenomena.  i mean the catholic priest announces that only baptized roman catholics can recieve communion but then everybody gets in live regardless if they r protestant, buddhist, whatever.

that would never happen in the greek church. our deacon asks you beforehand what your baptismal name is.
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« Reply #112 on: March 22, 2010, 07:17:24 AM »


Sunday, March 21, 2010
New Western Rite Abbot

I discovered on Tuesday, March 16, 2010, that Fr. Hieromonk David (Pierce) has been confirmed in the rank of Abbot by Metropolitan Hilarion, first hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Dom David's community, formerly named Holyrood after the Holy Cross, now bears the name "Dormition Monastery."

Source :: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/


Do you happen to know where this monastery is at? I thought the only western rite monastery was Christminster in Canada.
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« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2010, 07:34:08 AM »

I think this should be a top priority for the Orthodox Church today.

Unless the Patriarchs in power think converting Rome to Orthodoxy is easier...

K

Why? What's wrong with the Eastern Rite?

Considering that the OCA's current Bishop is a convert from the Episcopalian/Anglican Church (as are many other Orthodox clergy in the US) it's obvious that a Westerner can adopt an Eastern mindset quite nicely.
dont know about that. ive brought a few catholic friends to liturgy and why they all agree its beautiful they still cant get over the fact that we stand in liturgy  most of the time. catholics like to sit down a lot for their church services. 

This is a case of Catholics absorbing the Protestant mindset; before the Reformation, Western churches didn't have pews either.
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« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2010, 07:35:12 AM »

Do you happen to know where this monastery is at?

Jacksonville, Florida, US.

I thought the only western rite monastery was Christminster in Canada.

There is also St Petroc's in Tasmania which has a few monastic and/or missionary dependencies in Australia, two in England and one in the US (Holyrood Hermitage).

Quote
NEW ABBOT

Wednesday 10th March 2010: His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, Primate of ROCOR has issued a proclamation, naming Fr. David (Pierce) of Holyrood Hermitage as Abbot of the Monastery of the Holy Dormition of Our Lady of Mount Royal. The proclamation names Abbot Augustine (Whitfield) as the Abbot Emeritus. Abbot Augustine remains in hospital under ongoing care. Mount Royal was originally received into Orthodoxy in 1962 by Bishop Dositheus.
Source: http://orthodoxchristianwest.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2010, 11:17:57 AM »

Western Rite Orthodoxy is not thriving and neither is Eastern Orthodoxy thriving.

First people no longer search for Truth and that is the Main reason.

Second what is shown as Orthodoxy here in the United States and Western Countries is built for Western
Civilization and is a far cry from what True Eastern Orthodoxy is. Entirely different mindset. I do not have all the answers but am searching diligently trying to find that "mindset".

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« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2010, 03:23:34 PM »

This is a case of Catholics absorbing the Protestant mindset; before the Reformation, Western churches didn't have pews either.
What would you say are the objections to having pews or the benefits of no pews in the Church?
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« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2010, 03:49:36 PM »

This is a case of Catholics absorbing the Protestant mindset; before the Reformation, Western churches didn't have pews either.
What would you say are the objections to having pews or the benefits of no pews in the Church?

There is an entire thread dedicated to pews found in the main directory of the Liturgy section that you will need to go search for if you really care about this issue. Please read that entire thread and then post only if you think you can add something to the discussion. No pew talk in here, take it to that thread.

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« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2010, 04:23:31 PM »

There is also St Petroc's in Tasmania which has a few monastic and/or missionary dependencies in Australia, two in England and one in the US (Holyrood Hermitage).


I am confused.  How can Abbot Dom David of Holyrood be a dependency of an Australian monastery and subordinate to an Australian hieromonk Fr Michael (Wood)?  It seems very odd that an abbot in the States would be subordinated by the First Hierarch to a simple hieromonk in Australia? Is Abbot David subordinate to Hieromonk Michael as concerns matters in Abbot David's monastery of Holyrood but superior to him as abbot of Mount Royal?

Quote
NEW ABBOT

Wednesday 10th March 2010: His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, Primate of ROCOR has issued a proclamation, naming Fr. David (Pierce) of Holyrood Hermitage as Abbot of the Monastery of the Holy Dormition of Our Lady of Mount Royal. The proclamation names Abbot Augustine (Whitfield) as the Abbot Emeritus. Abbot Augustine remains in hospital under ongoing care. Mount Royal was originally received into Orthodoxy in 1962 by Bishop Dositheus.
Source: http://orthodoxchristianwest.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2010, 04:50:29 PM »

I am confused.  How can Abbot Dom David of Holyrood be a dependency of an Australian monastery and subordinate to an Australian hieromonk Fr Michael (Wood)?

Saint Petroc Monastery is composed of several separate semi-eremitic houses, each occupied by a Hieromonk.

I guess that it was Fr Michael who guided Fr David to leave the Milan Synod and join the ROCOR. I assume that Fr David decided to follow St Petroc's liturgical standards and simply to become a member of the monastery.

It seems very odd that an abbot in the States would be subordinated by the First Hierarch to a simple hieromonk in Australia?

Well, the website of St Petroc's Monastery confirms that:
Quote
The original [St Petroc's] house began formally in 1993, originally with two semi-eremitic hieromonks. This developed over time to two separate houses, Saint Petroc House in Cascades and Holyrood Hermitage in Avondale [Jacksonville, Florida, US].
Source: http://stpetrocmonastery.blogspot.com

Is Abbot David subordinate to Hieromonk Michael as concerns matters in Abbot David's monastery of Holyrood but superior to him as abbot of Mount Royal?

Holyrood is/was just a hermitage and a part of St Petroc's Monastery. I don't know what the situation really is, but I guess that now Holyrood and Mount Royal became one entity which is either a part of St Petroc's (and answers to Fr Michael) or an independent body (and answers directly to the Metropolitan).
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« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2010, 04:57:00 PM »


Dear Michal,

As I thought, Holyrood and Fr David are not a dependency of Australia and Hieromonk Fr Michael. This has been confirmed now by Father Abbot David who writes that when he was received into the Russian Church Abroad Holyrood was constituted as a cell of Mount Royal monastery (under Abbot Augustine Whitfield.)

With Fr David's elevation to Abbot last week the First Hierarch Metropolitan Hilarion has appointed him Abbot of both Mount Royal and, of course, Holyrood which is a dependency of Mount Royal.

Here is what Abbot David wrote to clarify this....



Actually the Monastery consists of Fr. Augustine (in nursing care), myself, and a postulate, Br. George.  We also have a married deacon who attends on Sundays and Feasts along with his family, along with the occasional visitor.

The reason behind the multiplicity of names for something so small is an accident of our history.  In my previous jurisdiction I began with a house-chapel called "St. Augustine of Canterbury Mission".  We briefly moved into rented space, but due to financial concerns ended up back in the house.  About 2001 Hiero-schema-monk Brendan (Williams) donated a relic of the Holy Cross.  In honor of this the Chapel was re-dedicated as "Holy Cross" or "Holy Rood".  "St. Augustine of Canterbury" was retained as a name for a future non-monastic mission that never materialized. Dormition of Our Lady (of Mt. Royal) Monastery, dates back to the early 1960s when it was received into the Russian Orthodox Church and Dom Augustine (Whitfield) blessed as its Abbot. 

Holyrood had been under the spiritual direction  of Abbot Augustine for many years, (as well as helping him as his health declined).  Upon our reception into ROCOR 2 years ago we were considered by the Metropolitan to be a Cell of "Mt. Royal". 

So, in reality the situation is thus:

1) The monastery is "Dormition of Our Lady (of Mt. Royal)".  The last part is in parenthesis since it denotes a geographical location no longer applicable.

2) The small Chapel is still "Holyrood" chapel owing to our having a Relic of the True Cross. "Dormition Chapel" was the name of Fr. Augustine's (now defunct) Oratory.

3) At the present time we have no permanent monastic buildings.  Fr. Augustine is in nursing care, I and Br. George continue to work secular jobs to keep a roof over our heads.
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« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2010, 05:05:33 PM »

Interesting. St Petroc Monastery's website (http://stpetrocmonastery.blogspot.com) claims otherwise. There must have been some misunderstanding on the way which resulted in this a little bit confusing situation.
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« Reply #122 on: March 22, 2010, 05:08:25 PM »

[Well, the website of St Petroc's Monastery confirms that:
Quote
The original [St Petroc's] house began formally in 1993, originally with two semi-eremitic hieromonks. This developed over time to two separate houses, Saint Petroc House in Cascades and Holyrood Hermitage in Avondale [Jacksonville, Florida, US].
Source: http://stpetrocmonastery.blogspot.com

This is a bit of a porky.  Inexplicable but a porky nonetheless.

1. At the time it was first written on the Internet Fr David (then Fr Cuthbert and owner of Holyrood Hermitage) was a member of the Synod of Milan and under the juridisdiction of the Milan Archbishop John LoBue of New York.   I think we can rest assured that NO monastery of any uncanonical Church had simultaneous dual membership in the Synod of Milan and the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. That sounds like a nightmare.   Shocked 

2.  At the time of the reception of Fr David (and his Holyrood hermitage) into the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad the Metropolitan constituted Holyrood as a cell of Mount Royal under Abbot Augustine.  The Metropolitan did not assign Holyrood as a dependency of Fr Hieromonk Michael.

Why Fr Michael is making this claim is a bit of a puzzle.
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« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2010, 07:09:04 PM »

Quote
This is a bit of a porky

Translation for those who may not be familiar with "rhyming slang" which is common in British and, to some degree, Australian and New Zealand English: Porky is a short form of pork pie. Pork pie rhymes with lie, though, as I understand it, to tell a porky is to tell a white lie.
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« Reply #124 on: March 22, 2010, 07:19:30 PM »

I guess the reason why the Western rites are not growing is that their are only so many former Anglicans seeking to convert to theOrthodox Church at this time.
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« Reply #125 on: March 22, 2010, 07:40:01 PM »

The Evansville Western Rite Mission is now defunct:  http://www.evansvillewesternorthodox.org/


Do you know what happened?

Does anyone know what happened? Beuller?... Beuller?...Beuller?...

I don't know what happened in this instance but the lead clergyman for Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdiocese is a XXXXXXXXXXX of the regime we have in place now. IF you listen to his speech at the Palm Springs in convention in 2009 you will hear why western rite
is going nowhere in our archdiocese. It is very sad and pathetic.

Harsh language removed. Please show proper respect for priest.
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« Reply #126 on: March 22, 2010, 09:40:26 PM »

Like I've said before in regards to the Western rite, If people were interested in it then there would be a demand for it's further expansion, but there is not. A good reason is that people who embrace Orthodoxy want to be Eastern Orthodox, not Orthodox who use an Anglican rite.  If they wanted to be Anglican then they would probably be in some type of Anglican jurisdiction instead of OC.  Since Orthodoxy does not have a definitive statement on the invalidity of Anglican orders, there would not be as a big a demand among Anglicans to cross over to the Church (Unlike the RC's who do deny that Anglican orders are valid). 

I wish all the luck in the world to those who wish to foster the Western rite usage, as long as they don't try to force it on to people who have no desire to practice it simply because those people are deemed to come from a "Western" back round.

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« Reply #127 on: November 29, 2010, 04:07:55 PM »

Can a "low church" liturgy be developed in Orthodoxy?

As a convert from a determinedly 'low church' denomination, 'low church liturgy' sounds like an oxymoron to me. But what elements of low church worship are you thinking could be adopted into something Orthodox would recognize as worship?

And yes, I very much resemble GiC's point. I was born in America, descended from generations of devout American Protestants, and I usually stay out of Western-rite threads because I don't understand the impulse at all. To most of the Americans I know (including the Episcopalians and even a majority of the Roman Catholics under the age of 40), the kind of 'smells and bells' high church Anglicanism one occasionally sees on TV and which seems to be the 'type' of worship Western-riters are trying to integrate with Orthodoxy is just as alien and incomprehensible as a liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (assuming both are in English).

At least with the Eastern rite, we are generally surrounded and led by individuals who have practiced the rite all their life after receiving it from individuals who had practiced it all their life who had received, etc. The fact that Western rite isn't actually the BCP Rite, or the Tridentine rite, and its certainly not a pre-schism or an Eastern rite, results in it feeling somewhat like the 'pick and choose your taste' religion which was often the reason we started the journey that led to Orthodoxy in the first place.

(Sorry, I don't question the authority of our bishops to create a Western rite, and if it's been duly authorized by the responsible bishop I don't consider it my business how anyone else chooses to worship, but I think GiC captured the answer to the thread title so well that I wished to back it up with the POV of a 'typical' Western convert).

It is the pick and choose of the western-rite that I cannot appreciate.  The Anglican BCP mass from 1549 - nearly 600 years after the western church schismed into heterodoxy is called Sarum by some and with some tweaking is made Orthodox.  I don'[t doubt that it can be made Orthodox vut it was 600 years non-canonical before it was written because the western church was in schism and heresy. Then we have the "English mass" which is another BCP version, a Tridentine mass which is really the English missal mass tweaked........ and none of these have been the shared experience of bishops, priests and people for anything less than the last 50 years because the early 20th century western rite collapsed, the French Orthodox Church embraced schism and Rome till a few came back via the Serbian Church....

To me the western-rite is false not because the history of western Orthodoxy is anything less than glorious - we all commemorate the western Orthodox saints but because it has had no real diocesan and parish life, no lived experience, generation after generation.  As a westerner there is a certain humility in coming to Christ in the eastern rite - an admission that the Anglicans and Romans got it wrong, and while I appreciate the beauty of the Book of Common Prayer offices etc, that does not make them right - or a rite for western Orthodox today.
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« Reply #128 on: November 29, 2010, 05:41:19 PM »

Why are you replying to old threads?  Don't get me wrong, your mis-information is highly entertaining!  It's just odd. 
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« Reply #129 on: November 29, 2010, 05:49:09 PM »

It is the pick and choose of the western-rite that I cannot appreciate.
Same here. But a quick correction:
Quote
The Anglican BCP mass from 1549 - nearly 600 years after the western church schismed into heterodoxy is called Sarum by some and with some tweaking is made Orthodox.
This is incorrect. The Anglican BCP 1549 was principally patterned after the Sarum rite, but was edited in distinctly Protestant ways (the 1559 edit would take it much further).

The Sarum rite itself was founded by the Norman Bishop of Salisbury, Osmund, in the 11th century (IIRC, in the 1170s). Though England was clearly politically on the side of Rome at this point (thanks in part to the Norman invasion), the full east/west schism was not complete at that time.

England also had several other Catholic local uses (the Hereford, the York, etc.) which existed until the Act of Uniformity enforced the prayerbook across the nation. If you read the preface to the BCP, it explicitly states that its goal was to suppress all the old local uses. This was Cranmer's way of enforcing theology, by controlling liturgy.

All of that said, attempting to 'Dox the old liturgies is a little funny because [IIRC] we don't have surviving copies of the entire thing, at least in regard to the Sarum.

Perhaps a bit more than anyone cared to know.

Quote
I don't doubt that it can be made Orthodox vut it was 600 years non-canonical before it was written because the western church was in schism and heresy. Then we have the "English mass" which is another BCP version, a Tridentine mass which is really the English missal mass tweaked........ and none of these have been the shared experience of bishops, priests and people for anything less than the last 50 years because the early 20th century western rite collapsed, the French Orthodox Church embraced schism and Rome till a few came back via the Serbian Church....
More of the same problems I have, but...

Quote
To me the western-rite is false not because the history of western Orthodoxy is anything less than glorious - we all commemorate the western Orthodox saints but because it has had no real diocesan and parish life, no lived experience, generation after generation.  As a westerner there is a certain humility in coming to Christ in the eastern rite - an admission that the Anglicans and Romans got it wrong, and while I appreciate the beauty of the Book of Common Prayer offices etc, that does not make them right - or a rite for western Orthodox today.
I can't go this far. I may not really be a fan of just cleaning up their liturgies, but then I am not a bishop. I would not have a problem attending a WRO church if that was what was available with no Byzantine or Russian Rite around. The sacraments are still valid, even if I don't care for Anglican liturgy.
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« Reply #130 on: November 29, 2010, 05:52:39 PM »

lack of organization/unification perhaps?
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« Reply #131 on: November 29, 2010, 05:53:02 PM »

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has some thoughts relative to the Western Rite mission work which is being attempted in the United Kingdom.

Some Thoughts on the "Western Rite" In Orthodoxy
http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/ware.html
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« Reply #132 on: November 29, 2010, 06:00:09 PM »

Those thoughts are almost 15 years old, fyi.  And speaking to a quite specific situation in Great Britain.
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« Reply #133 on: November 29, 2010, 06:00:44 PM »

Can a "low church" liturgy be developed in Orthodoxy?

As a convert from a determinedly 'low church' denomination, 'low church liturgy' sounds like an oxymoron to me. But what elements of low church worship are you thinking could be adopted into something Orthodox would recognize as worship?

And yes, I very much resemble GiC's point. I was born in America, descended from generations of devout American Protestants, and I usually stay out of Western-rite threads because I don't understand the impulse at all. To most of the Americans I know (including the Episcopalians and even a majority of the Roman Catholics under the age of 40), the kind of 'smells and bells' high church Anglicanism one occasionally sees on TV and which seems to be the 'type' of worship Western-riters are trying to integrate with Orthodoxy is just as alien and incomprehensible as a liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (assuming both are in English).

At least with the Eastern rite, we are generally surrounded and led by individuals who have practiced the rite all their life after receiving it from individuals who had practiced it all their life who had received, etc. The fact that Western rite isn't actually the BCP Rite, or the Tridentine rite, and its certainly not a pre-schism or an Eastern rite, results in it feeling somewhat like the 'pick and choose your taste' religion which was often the reason we started the journey that led to Orthodoxy in the first place.

(Sorry, I don't question the authority of our bishops to create a Western rite, and if it's been duly authorized by the responsible bishop I don't consider it my business how anyone else chooses to worship, but I think GiC captured the answer to the thread title so well that I wished to back it up with the POV of a 'typical' Western convert).

It is the pick and choose of the western-rite that I cannot appreciate.  The Anglican BCP mass from 1549 - nearly 600 years after the western church schismed into heterodoxy is called Sarum by some and with some tweaking is made Orthodox.  I don'[t doubt that it can be made Orthodox vut it was 600 years non-canonical before it was written because the western church was in schism and heresy. Then we have the "English mass" which is another BCP version, a Tridentine mass which is really the English missal mass tweaked........ and none of these have been the shared experience of bishops, priests and people for anything less than the last 50 years because the early 20th century western rite collapsed, the French Orthodox Church embraced schism and Rome till a few came back via the Serbian Church....

To me the western-rite is false not because the history of western Orthodoxy is anything less than glorious - we all commemorate the western Orthodox saints but because it has had no real diocesan and parish life, no lived experience, generation after generation.  As a westerner there is a certain humility in coming to Christ in the eastern rite - an admission that the Anglicans and Romans got it wrong, and while I appreciate the beauty of the Book of Common Prayer offices etc, that does not make them right - or a rite for western Orthodox today.

Here is some reality for your confusion.

Quote
There are certainly some who very imperfectly under stand what is meant by these old Uses of the Church of England ; they have often remarked the passage which I have quoted from the Preface to the Prayer Book, and would be glad to learn something about it. Wheatley and Shepherd, authors generally appealed to, pass over without remark " the Preface "; the latter however 1 in his Introduction does say, that " it is deserving of notice, that hitherto there had not been in England any one service established by public authority for the general use of the Church. In the southern parts of the island, the Offices according to the Use of Sarum, and in the northern, those of York, were generally followed. In South Wales the Offices of Hereford were adopted, and in North Wales, those of Bangor, "; and so he passes on. Nor does Dr. Nicholls in his Commentary make any remark upon the passage. Bishop Mant in his selection of Notes upon the Common Prayer, has referred to Sparrow and Dr. Burn, who give no further information upon the subject, except indeed that Osmund, the Bishop of Salisbury, about the year 1070, was the compiler of the Use of Sarum.
The Ancient Liturgy of the Church of England, by William Maskell (2nd ed., 1846) http://www.archive.org/details/theancientliturg00maskuoft

1070 was four years after the Norman Invasion of England. England never truly aligned with Rome, which ultimately fueled the split in the 16th Century.

Quote
[T]HE chief Liturgies which have been preserved are those which are called St. James's, St. Mark's, St. Chrysostom's, St. Basil's, the Roman, and preeminent above all these, of an acknowledged greater antiquity than any, the Clementine. As I have reprinted this liturgy of St. Clement at the end of the present volume, it seems necessary that I should make one or two remarks, by which it is to be hoped the reader will be able to judge its value.
The Ancient Liturgy of the Church of England, by William Maskell (2nd ed., 1846) http://www.archive.org/details/theancientliturg00maskuoft

Quote
This Book of Common Prayer was not created in a vacuum, but derives from several sources. First and foremost was the Sarum Rite, or the Latin liturgy developed in Salisbury in the thirteenth century, and widely used in England. Two other influences were a reformed Roman Breviary of the Spanish Cardinal Quiñones, and a book on doctrine and liturgy by Hermann von Wied, Archbishop of Cologne.
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1549/BCP_1549.htm

You're problem is you assume because Rome in heresy, everything the Latin's touch is heretical. The Latin rites are older than the Schism.

BTW, you're Latinclasm is showing.
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« Reply #134 on: November 29, 2010, 06:02:19 PM »

I'd also like to point out, ironically, how scholastic and Western this "If it fell out of use, it's no good" attitude seems to be.  It's almost as if the Western Rite is adopting a more Eastern ethos in regards to our attitude of, "All is alive in Christ.  Nothing dies out.  Nothing is lost."  Interesting Smiley
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« Reply #135 on: November 29, 2010, 06:11:12 PM »


Those thoughts are almost 15 years old, fyi. 


You want to resurrect liturgical forms which are 1500 years old but you don't think that thoughts from 15 years ago have any value.   laugh

Are you able, fmi,  to take what Bishop Kallistos wrote about the situation in the UK in 1996 and tell us what is inapplicable in 2010?    To my mind nothing has changed.
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« Reply #136 on: November 29, 2010, 06:13:54 PM »

And the Award for "Most Obvious Joke" goes to... Wink

I'm not in the U.K. so I'm not sure how applicable it would be at this time.  Perhaps someone else could enlighten us.
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« Reply #137 on: November 29, 2010, 06:39:06 PM »

lack of organization/unification perhaps?

I wonder if there are also political reasons, in the UK.    The websites of the English mission are very specific that they are targetting members of the state Church, the Church of England.  Now the connection between the Russian Church and the Russian Government is very tight.  It would not require much more than a small wink and a nod from members of the House of Lords or indeed simply from the House of Commons, into the ear of the Russian ambassador, to stop things dead in their tracks.   If only for the sake of trade and economic reasons Russia will be reluctant to offend Great Britain by pursuing the conversion of members of the Church of England.
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« Reply #138 on: November 29, 2010, 06:42:55 PM »

My critique:


Quote
First, the historical aspect : Prior to the Schism, when the Latin West was still in full communion with the Orthodox East, various western rites were in use in the West, and it was never suggested that these rites - most notably, the ancient Roman rite - were not Orthodox. In princi ple, therefore, there is no reason why one or more western rites should not be used in Orthodoxy. There is no theological objection per se to the use of a diversity of rites in the one Church; on the contrary, this confirms the Church's catholicity.

Yay!  Grin

Quote
Second, the liturgical aspect : But what western rite should be used? In France, the Eglise CatholiqueOrthodoxe de France, until recently under the jurisdiction of the Church of Romania, has used what is termed "the rite of St. Germain of Paris." l have attended this and found it a mo ving and prayerful event. But liturgical specialists tell me that this is a modern reconstruction and that at many points it is unclear how far it corresponds to the ancient Gallican rites. I understand that there are "western rite" groups in the USA whi ch are using what is basically an Anglican rite, with a Byzantine epiclesis inserted into it. I have some reservations here.

The Anglican service is in large part the work of Cranmer, who was Zwinglian in his theology (i.e., he did not believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist): do we make his rite "Orthodox" simply by inserting a Byzantine epiclesis? Indeed, is i t right to take the Byzantine epiclesis and insert it into a western liturgical text where it does not properly belong? It is said that St. Tikhon of Moscow, while Archbishop of North America at the start of this century, blessed a rite of this sort. But how carefully was he able to examine the question? And if he were living today, would he recommend the same course? If we Orthodox are indeed to use a western rite, then there needs to be a full discussion on a pan-Orthodox level to clarify what western rite we should employ.

So what if it's been changes some. It's not a historical reenactment. It's using a liturgy that is culturally relevant to the west. It is unrealistic to think it could be used today without some revisions. Revision, doesn't necessarily equal bad.

The Anglican BCP was transfered to Orthodoxy with little changes to it. The St. Tikon found it to be Orthodox, but in order to ensure it's orthodoxy, he inserted the Byzantine epiclesis for it's approval.

Quote
Returning to the critique of the 1892 Episcopalian Prayer Book produced by the Holy Governing Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, which was subsequently translated into English and published under Anglican auspices as Russian Observations upon the American Prayer Book (Alcuin Club Tracts XII) translated by Wilfrid J. Barnes and edited and annotated by Walter Howard Frere (the latter an English liturgical scholar and later Bishop of Truro in the Church of England) in 1917 (and which may be read here) it is a polite but critical examination of its subject from an Orthodox perspective; and it is remarkable how uncritical, and often approving, of its critique Frere (an anti-papal somewhat Orthodoxophile Anglo-Catholic) showed himself to be.  The critique deals, in its first section, with the Holy Communion rite, the Ordination rites (the longest section), the Baptism rite, Confirmation, Matrimony, the Sacrament of Penance and the Sacrament of Unction (or the absence of any rites for these last two) and then, in its second, with a number of general observations, most notably concerning the lack of any prayers for the dead in that Prayer Book.  As regards its critique of the Eucharistic rite, all that concerns us here, it makes two critical observations, first, the lack of any clear indication of a belief in, or explicit petition for, the “change” of the elements of bread and wine into the body and Blood of Christ and, secondly, the lack of any clear statement or even indication that the Eucharist is “a sacrifice for the living and the dead.”  (The Prayer of Consecration of the 1892 Prayer Book was identical to that of the 1928 book, although in 1892, as in 1789, the “Prayer of Humble Access” came between the Preface and Sanctus and what was specifically termed the Prayer of Consecration, beginning with “All Glory be to thee …“ etc.) The authors go on to conclude in this section that while there is nothing in the Prayer Book rite that explicitly contradicts these two beliefs, a denial of them can be as easily read into them, or by implication extracted from them, as their affirmation, and so calls for their being made clearer in any version of the BCP adapted for Orthodox use.
http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2010/06/the-liturgy-of-st-tikhon-of-moscow/




Quote
Third, the pastoral aspect : I will speak only of the situation in Britain, for I am not qualified to express an opinion about America. Here in Britain we Orthodox, few though we are in numbers, are fragmented into a multiplicity of "jurisdictions"; but at least we are united in the use of the same rite - the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. If a "western rite" is introduced here, it will add still further to our fragmentation. Is this desirable? Greeks, Russians, Serbs and so on, attending such a "western rite" service, wi ll not feel at home or recognize it as being Orthodox. There is a real danger that "western rite" Orthodox will find themselves cut off and isolated from the rest of the Orthodox around them. Is this pastorally helpful?

This is his true concern. It's not the Western Rite, itself. He's afraid of the effects of having two liturgies available with have for conversion. Especially, having negative effects on the Eastern Rite.

I disagree, it has been shown that the Western Rite has only helped to promote conversion due to ease of cultural acceptance. In fact, many people later move to the Eastern Rites, whether it be for a change, necessity, or preference. My local Antiochian priest grew up in a Western Rite church only to now be serving in an Eastern Rite.

Quote
If we wish to help western persons joining Orthodoxy, the best way is to offer them the possibility of attending the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in the English language. There is nothing "oriental" or "ethnic" about this Liturgy. True, it was written in Greek and not in Latin; but then Plato and Sophocles wrote in Greek, yet we recognize them as part of our shared European culture. The same is true of St. John Chrysostom. We English can feel thoroughly at home in his Liturgy - as I know from m y own experience.

Bishop Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia

This is the common claim of people who are comfortable with the eastern liturgy. However, considering the amount of people that "have problems with the difference" and "cultural shock", that's hard to accept. The Western Rites are often described as linear, while the Eastern Rites are described as circular in their prayer style.

A western liturgy is merely a means of connecting psychologically with a westerner.
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« Reply #139 on: November 29, 2010, 06:44:31 PM »

And the Award for "Most Obvious Joke" goes to... Wink

I'm not in the U.K. so I'm not sure how applicable it would be at this time.  Perhaps someone else could enlighten us.

Sure - Metropolitan Kallistos has changed his mind.
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« Reply #140 on: November 29, 2010, 06:49:33 PM »

And the Award for "Most Obvious Joke" goes to... Wink

I'm not in the U.K. so I'm not sure how applicable it would be at this time.  Perhaps someone else could enlighten us.

Sure - Metropolitan Kallistos has changed his mind.

Not my implication.  Just stating a fact.  Situations (and yes, minds) change quite a bit in a decade and a half.  Not saying the situation has changed, and I'm not saying Ware has adjusted his stance.  I don't know either way.
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« Reply #141 on: November 29, 2010, 06:53:30 PM »

And the Award for "Most Obvious Joke" goes to... Wink

I'm not in the U.K. so I'm not sure how applicable it would be at this time.  Perhaps someone else could enlighten us.

Sure - Metropolitan Kallistos has changed his mind.

Not my implication.  Just stating a fact.  Situations (and yes, minds) change quite a bit in a decade and a half.  Not saying the situation has changed, and I'm not saying Ware has adjusted his stance.  I don't know either way.

I know - Fr. Michael spoke with him in person before this endeavor began. He was consulted, and also gave us some illumination on what actually occurred 15 years ago.
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« Reply #142 on: November 29, 2010, 06:53:58 PM »

And the Award for "Most Obvious Joke" goes to... Wink

I'm not in the U.K. so I'm not sure how applicable it would be at this time.  Perhaps someone else could enlighten us.

Sure - Metropolitan Kallistos has changed his mind.

This site, August 2008, is not aware of the bishop changing his mind

http://gwjolly.org/liturgy/index.shtml

And  by searching the web one finds other similar information.
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« Reply #143 on: November 29, 2010, 06:57:09 PM »

lack of organization/unification perhaps?

I wonder if there are also political reasons, in the UK.    The websites of the English mission are very specific that they are targetting members of the state Church, the Church of England.  Now the connection between the Russian Church and the Russian Government is very tight.  It would not require much more than a small wink and a nod from members of the House of Lords or indeed simply from the House of Commons, into the ear of the Russian ambassador, to stop things dead in their tracks.   If only for the sake of trade and economic reasons Russia will be reluctant to offend Great Britain by pursuing the conversion of members of the Church of England.

One - the Russian Orthodox Church is not at the beck and call of the Russian government: and we have the explicit support of the DECR. Two - our mission is small enough that the House of Commons and House of Lords aren't going to be worried by it - anymore than they are worried by conversions to Eastern Rite Orthodox, or Coptic, etc. If one would go, all would go. Besides - they have bigger worries - with the departures to Rome. In any case, the response we're getting is more from Roman Catholics in England. Rome is making a trade it seems. "Why do the heathen rage, and why do the people imagine a vain thing?"
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« Reply #144 on: November 29, 2010, 06:57:54 PM »

What is Ware's current role in the U.K.?  I don't know much about him to be honest.  Is this something he would need to have a stance on, at all?
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« Reply #145 on: November 29, 2010, 06:58:36 PM »

Posting anew an old opinion of a living person is not the same as going to them and asking.

The Metropolitan is retired.
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« Reply #146 on: November 29, 2010, 07:20:28 PM »

What is Ware's current role in the U.K.?  I don't know much about him to be honest.  Is this something he would need to have a stance on, at all?

Well, he must show solidarity with his Synod in Constantinople which is opposed to attempts to convert members of the Church of England.

I recall several years ago when a friend of mind had finished St Vlad's and was ordained in ACROD.  He wanted to relocate to Great Britain and undertake missionary work.   The application from his bishop to Archbishop Gregorios of London was refused because Archbishop Gregorios permitted no work among Anglicans in Great Britain.  Because of this the priest in question was released instead to the Russian Church Abroad and moved to Her Majesty's realm.

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« Reply #147 on: November 29, 2010, 07:23:04 PM »


any case, the response we're getting is more from Roman Catholics in England.


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« Reply #148 on: November 29, 2010, 07:27:15 PM »

What is Ware's current role in the U.K.?  I don't know much about him to be honest.  Is this something he would need to have a stance on, at all?

You should be addressing him as Metropolitan KALLISTOS (of Diokleia, if you wish), or "His Eminence," not simply, "Ware."
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« Reply #149 on: November 29, 2010, 07:55:42 PM »

What is Ware's current role in the U.K.?  I don't know much about him to be honest.  Is this something he would need to have a stance on, at all?

You should be addressing him as Metropolitan KALLISTOS (of Diokleia, if you wish), or "His Eminence," not simply, "Ware."

Apologies!  That was totally absent-minded.  Thank you for addressing it!
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« Reply #150 on: December 02, 2010, 03:34:13 PM »


Sunday, March 21, 2010
New Western Rite Abbot

I discovered on Tuesday, March 16, 2010, that Fr. Hieromonk David (Pierce) has been confirmed in the rank of Abbot by Metropolitan Hilarion, first hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Dom David's community, formerly named Holyrood after the Holy Cross, now bears the name "Dormition Monastery."

Source :: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/


Fr. David's blog has been reactivated recently: http://quicumquevult.blogspot.com
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« Reply #151 on: December 02, 2010, 03:41:18 PM »

Fr. David's blog has been reactivated recently: http://quicumquevult.blogspot.com

It's interesting that he's naming his blog after a Western creed which seems include a sort of Filique:

Quote from: alleged St. Athanasius
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding.
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« Reply #152 on: December 02, 2010, 03:46:15 PM »

Fr. David's blog has been reactivated recently: http://quicumquevult.blogspot.com

It's interesting that he's naming his blog after a Western creed which seems include a sort of Filique:

Quote from: alleged St. Athanasius
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding.

The original Athanasian Creed, just like the original Nicene Creed, does not include the filioque clause.
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« Reply #153 on: December 02, 2010, 03:48:29 PM »

What is Ware's current role in the U.K.?  I don't know much about him to be honest.  Is this something he would need to have a stance on, at all?

Well, he must show solidarity with his Synod in Constantinople which is opposed to attempts to convert members of the Church of England.

I recall several years ago when a friend of mind had finished St Vlad's and was ordained in ACROD.  He wanted to relocate to Great Britain and undertake missionary work.   The application from his bishop to Archbishop Gregorios of London was refused because Archbishop Gregorios permitted no work among Anglicans in Great Britain.  Because of this the priest in question was released instead to the Russian Church Abroad and moved to Her Majesty's realm.

Some Thoughts on the "Western Rite" In Orthodoxy

First, the historical aspect : Prior to the Schism, when the Latin West was still in full communion with the Orthodox East, various western rites were in use in the West, and it was never suggested that these rites - most notably, the ancient Roman rite - were not Orthodox. In princi ple, therefore, there is no reason why one or more western rites should not be used in Orthodoxy. There is no theological objection per se to the use of a diversity of rites in the one Church; on the contrary, this confirms the Church's catholicity.

Second, the liturgical aspect : But what western rite should be used? In France, the Eglise CatholiqueOrthodoxe de France, until recently under the jurisdiction of the Church of Romania, has used what is termed "the rite of St. Germain of Paris." l have attended this and found it a mo ving and prayerful event. But liturgical specialists tell me that this is a modern reconstruction and that at many points it is unclear how far it corresponds to the ancient Gallican rites. I understand that there are "western rite" groups in the USA whi ch are using what is basically an Anglican rite, with a Byzantine epiclesis inserted into it. I have some reservations here.

The Anglican service is in large part the work of Cranmer, who was Zwinglian in his theology (i.e., he did not believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist): do we make his rite "Orthodox" simply by inserting a Byzantine epiclesis? Indeed, is i t right to take the Byzantine epiclesis and insert it into a western liturgical text where it does not properly belong? It is said that St. Tikhon of Moscow, while Archbishop of North America at the start of this century, blessed a rite of this sort. But how carefully was he able to examine the question? And if he were living today, would he recommend the same course? If we Orthodox are indeed to use a western rite, then there needs to be a full discussion on a pan-Orthodox level to clarify what western rite we should employ.

Third, the pastoral aspect : I will speak only of the situation in Britain, for I am not qualified to express an opinion about America. Here in Britain we Orthodox, few though we are in numbers, are fragmented into a multiplicity of "jurisdictions"; but at least we are united in the use of the same rite - the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. If a "western rite" is introduced here, it will add still further to our fragmentation. Is this desirable? Greeks, Russians, Serbs and so on, attending such a "western rite" service, wi ll not feel at home or recognize it as being Orthodox. There is a real danger that "western rite" Orthodox will find themselves cut off and isolated from the rest of the Orthodox around them. Is this pastorally helpful?

If we wish to help western persons joining Orthodoxy, the best way is to offer them the possibility of attending the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in the English language. There is nothing "oriental" or "ethnic" about this Liturgy. True, it was written in Greek and not in Latin; but then Plato and Sophocles wrote in Greek, yet we recognize them as part of our shared European culture. The same is true of St. John Chrysostom. We English can feel thoroughly at home in his Liturgy - as I know from m y own experience.

Bishop Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia
The Priest. A Newsletter for the Clergy of the Diocese of San Francisco. Issue No. 5, May 1996

I have read nothing where His Grace rescinds this view that the Byzantine rite in English is perfectly good, correct and proper for western-Orthodox Christians.


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« Reply #154 on: December 02, 2010, 03:49:29 PM »

It's interesting that he's naming his blog after a Western creed which seems include a sort of Filique. . .

Not in the version published on the blog itself:
Quote
The Holy Ghost is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
Source: http://quicumquevult.blogspot.com/2007/12/quicumque-vult.html

Some say the Filioque in this creed is a later addition - not something written by St. Athanasius.
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« Reply #155 on: December 02, 2010, 03:57:32 PM »

And the Award for "Most Obvious Joke" goes to... Wink

I'm not in the U.K. so I'm not sure how applicable it would be at this time.  Perhaps someone else could enlighten us.

Sure - Metropolitan Kallistos has changed his mind.
[/quote

Could you please show us evidence of this change of mind by His Grace?
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« Reply #156 on: December 02, 2010, 04:06:55 PM »

Posting anew an old opinion of a living person is not the same as going to them and asking.

The Metropolitan is retired.

His Eminence may be retired but he still writes, still serves and there is no rebuttal of his 1996 views anywhere that I can find.  A 14 year old opinion in still current unless the speaker has changed his mind although I think I read on one of Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)'s many blogs that he met with His Eminence, so perhaps he knows something which has not been published?

With far more converts to "Byzantine" Orthodoxy now than there were 14 years ago, western bishops and many more priests, monastics and faithful, it seems to me that the logic in the 1996 statement rings true.  I also accept that WR Orthodoxy has also had growth since that time, not the least being the worldwide Petrocian missions isince the beginnings of the St. Petroc monastery in Australia by Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) of Tasmania.
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« Reply #157 on: December 02, 2010, 05:10:45 PM »


it seems to me that the logic in the 1996 statement rings true.  I also accept that WR Orthodoxy has also had growth since that time, not the least being the worldwide Petrocian missions isince the beginnings of the St. Petroc monastery in Australia by Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) of Tasmania.

Dear Subdeacon David,

I am interested in the status of the Petrochian mission.   I know that it created 2 missions in Australia 13 years ago. 

1.  The mission in Launceston reached 9 members.  It is now closed.

2.  The mission in Hobart has, according to information from Hobart, 5 members.

Five members on the Australian continent after 13 years of missionary activity is quite a small number.  Not that we want to judge a spiritual work by numbers.

Do you know the Petrochian figures for its WR mission in the UK?

It would seem to be a mission urgently in need of the prayers of all those who want to support the Western Rite.
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« Reply #158 on: December 03, 2010, 01:23:36 AM »

It's interesting that he's naming his blog after a Western creed which seems include a sort of Filique. . .

Not in the version published on the blog itself:
Quote
The Holy Ghost is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
Source: http://quicumquevult.blogspot.com/2007/12/quicumque-vult.html

Oh. Thank you for pointing that out.


Quote
Some say the Filioque in this creed is a later addition - not something written by St. Athanasius.

Who says so and when was it hypothetically added?
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« Reply #159 on: December 03, 2010, 08:14:50 AM »


[Five members on the Australian continent after 13 years of missionary activity is quite a small number.  Not that we want to judge a spiritual work by numbers.

Do you know the Petrochian figures for its WR mission in the UK?

It would seem to be a mission urgently in need of the prayers of all those who want to support the Western Rite.


I don't know the Petrochian mission numbers for the  UK.   I believe that if one sees the many Petrochian paruchia websites that one can easily see the scope of their many activities.

Saint Petroc Monastery: http://stpetrocmonastery.blogspot.com/

Saint Eanswythe Mission: http://kentorthodox.blogspot.com/

Saint Nectan Mission: http://saintnectan.blogspot.com/

Saint Dyfan Mission: http://hobartorthodox.blogspot.com/

Saint Brendan Mission: http://saintbrendanoss.blogspot.com/

Newspaper: http://orthodoxchristianwest.blogspot.com/

Missions: http://saintpetrocmissionarysociety.blogspot.com/

History Site: http://westorthodoxhistory.blogspot.com/

English Orthodox: http://englishorthodox.blogspot.com/

Saint Stephen Mission: http://launcestonorthodox.blogspot.com/

Monastery Site - Liturgy: http://orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/

Discussion Forum: http://elyforum.yuku.com/





That there is no western rite in the major cities of Sydney (4 million) and Melbourne (3 million) may be attributable to many things.  Certainly the established ROCOR parishes in those cities - about 12-14 parishes have many western clergy serving and many Byzantine rite western laity, as well as both English language and Greek/English monasteries.

The St. Petroc site states at: Saint Petroc Monastery: http://stpetrocmonastery.blogspot.com/


Saint Petroc Monastery, acting in accordance with episcopal direction, has a paruchia of Monastery Missions and other formal groups:

Saint StepheSan Monastery Mission
Saint Gildas Monastery Mission
Saint Dyfan Monastery Mission
Saint Brendan OSS
Saint Eanswythe OSS


The Monastery came under the omphorion of His Eminence, Archbishop Hilarion in August 1997 and has remained as an official monastery of the ROCOR Diocese ever since.

The purpose of the Paruchia is to make Orthodoxy accessible to people whose western culture makes entry via the Byzantine worship and ethnic communities of most Orthodox parishes, difficult.

By and large the elements of the paruchia do not advertise themselves, but spread by word of mouth. The purpose being to enable those already seeking, rather than proselytising. Over the years, the Saint Petroc method has facilitated the conversion of a number of Protestant clergy, as well as individuals and small groups. Not all of these come under the Monastery, but are often directed eventually to a local ruling bishop.

The Monastery also provides retreat directors for those member groups of the paruchia wishing to introduce new members to Orthodoxy. It keeps in close contact with the paruchia and provides ongoing catechetical and liturgical material for members.

The Monastery is engaged in the task of producing liturgical resources for western rite Orthodox parishes.

Saint Petroc House and Holyrood House do not have visitor stay facilities, since this is difficult for such eremitic houses.


The St Petroc blog sites also has a saintpetrocmissionarysociety.blogspot.com with missions in the Philippines (2) and the United States of America (1 or 2?) so clearly the Petrochian paruchia is achieving in the mission fields if it has 300 catechumen in the Philippines.  I hope and pray that a missionary monk-priest or priest can go there and begin the baptisms, bringing these souls to Jesus Christ.

Saint Petroc Monastery Missionary Society is a Society set up to promote the missions run by Saint Petroc Monastery, to facilitate their funding and to assist the missionaries in the field.

Saint Petroc Monastery currently runs missions in the Philippines, England, Australia and the USA. Mostly these are "green fields" missions starting from scratch. Saint Petroc Monastery does not have access to official Church funds, large private funds or bequests, we rely entirely on the giving of devout Orthodox Christian Believers.


The Monastery is directly under the control of His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, the Primate of ROCOR.

Missionary work at all levels - the individual - and the mass foreign.  We are looking at participating in an Orthodox school in London, we are opening missions in England.   We have opened two missions in the Philippines (300 people) - so the missionary work just never stops. The money however is another matter - there's none of it! So we have to find what we can wherever we can.  Pray for money for the missions in England and the Philippines!


Saint Petroc Monastery has the following missions:

SAINT ANASTASIA         Davao City,  Philippines
SAINT THOMAS              Mindanao, Philippines
SAINT NECTAN               Barnstaple, Devon, England
SAINT EANSWYTHE      Christchurch, Dorset, England
SAINT BRENDAN            Panama City, Florida, USA
SAINT PETER & PAUL   Huntsville Alabama
SAINT DYFAN                  Hobart, Tasmania
SAINT GILDAS                Perth, Western Australia




The present Directors of the Society are:

Fr. Michael,  Superior of Saint Petroc Monastery
Mr. Aristibule Adams of Saint Brendan Monastery Mission
Fr. Joshua
[/b][/color]

So Father this equals 8 missions under the Petrochian Paruchia spreading Western-rite Orthodoxy in 4 countries - Australia, Philippines, United States and the United Kingdom.  I am not aware of the Launceston mission being closed as Priest Barry Jeffrey is still resident there although currently serving in Hobart fortnightly in the absence of  St. Petroc Monastery Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood), the Australian superior of the monastery-missionary WR organisation who is currently visiting the United Kingdom and has reported great success in evangelism.  

The Philippine missions site has the capacity for people to donate funds for their missionary work - a worthy outreach to see these souls baptised.  Is there the prospect of a permanent priest in the Philippines?  If they have 300 souls in 2 centres it would be possibly the largest western-rite parishes in the world.
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« Reply #160 on: December 29, 2010, 01:17:09 AM »

It's been mentioned a few times in this thread that some Eastern Rite Orthodox disapprove of having Western Rite Orthodoxy.

Why is that?
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« Reply #161 on: December 29, 2010, 03:48:52 AM »

It's been mentioned a few times in this thread that some Eastern Rite Orthodox disapprove of having Western Rite Orthodoxy.

Why is that?

Here's short overview of anti-WRO arguments.
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« Reply #162 on: December 29, 2010, 09:54:18 AM »

It's been mentioned a few times in this thread that some Eastern Rite Orthodox disapprove of having Western Rite Orthodoxy.

Why is that?

Fr. Alexander Schmemman explains it this way:

Quote
Notes and Comments on the "Western Rite"

The question of rites is precisely not, has never been and cannot be a mere question of rites per se, but is and has always been a question of faith, of its wholeness and integrity. The liturgy embodies and expresses the faith, or better to say, the experience of the Church, and is that experience's manifestation and communication. And when rites, detached from their nature and function, begin to be discussed in terms of "acceptance" and "rejection" or "likes and dislikes", the debate concerning them becomes meaningless.

For many people, the eastern and western rites are two entirely different and self-contained "blocks" ruling out, as an impure "hybridization", all contacts and mutual influences. This, however, is wrong - first of all, historically. In a sense, the entire history of Christian worship can be termed a history of constant "hybridizations" - if only this word is deprived of its negative connotations. Before their separations, the east and the west influenced one another for centuries. And there is no exaggeration in saying that the anaphora of St. John Chrysostom's Liturgy is infinitely 'closer' to the Roman anaphora of the same period than the service of Holy Communion in the Book of Common Prayer is to, for example, the Tridentine Mass.

What makes a western rite Orthodox? For many proponents of the western rite, all it takes is a few additions and a few deletions, e.g. "striking the filioque " and "strengthening of the epiclesis." This answer implies, on the one hand, that there exists a unified and homogenous reality identifiable as the western rite and, on the other hand, that except for two or three "heretical" ingredients or omissions, this rite is ipso facto Orthodox. Both presuppositions are wrong.

Indeed, one does not have to be an "authority on the West" in order to know that liturgical development in the West was shaped to a degree unknown in the East by various theologies, the succession of which - and the clashes of one with another - constitute western religious history. Scholasticism, Reformation, Counter-Reformation, etc., have all resulted in sometimes radical liturgical metamorphoses and all have had a decisive impact on worship. Therefore, one should speak today not of the western rite, but of western rites, deeply - if not radically - differing from one another, yet all reflecting in one way or another, the western theological tragedy and fragmentation. This does not mean that all these rites are "heretical" and simply to be condemned. It only means that, from an Orthodox point of view, their evaluation in terms merely of "deletions" and "additions" is - to say the least - inadequate. For the irony of our present situation is that while some western Christians come to Orthodoxy in order to salvage the rite they cherish (Book of Common Prayer, Tridentine Mass, etc.) from liturgical reforms they abhor, some of these reforms, at least in abstacto, are closer to the structures and spirit of the early western rite - and thus to the Orthodox liturgical tradition - than the later rite, those precisely that the Orthodox Church is supposed to "sanction" and to "adopt."

It is my deep conviction that the eastern liturgical tradition is alone today in having preserved, in spite of all historical "deficiencies", the fullness of the Church's lex orandi and constitutes, therefore, the criterion for all liturgical evaluations.

Father Alexander Schmemann (1920-1983)
(SVTQ 24/4, 1980)
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« Reply #163 on: December 29, 2010, 11:03:25 AM »

It's interesting that he's naming his blog after a Western creed which seems include a sort of Filique. . .

Not in the version published on the blog itself:
Quote
The Holy Ghost is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
Source: http://quicumquevult.blogspot.com/2007/12/quicumque-vult.html

Oh. Thank you for pointing that out.


Quote
Some say the Filioque in this creed is a later addition - not something written by St. Athanasius.

Who says so and when was it hypothetically added?

The text of the creed, believed to be from the 4th century southern France (see heavy Trinitarian theology), predates the filioque, which was first employed in 6th century Spain.
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« Reply #164 on: December 29, 2010, 12:57:59 PM »

It's been mentioned a few times in this thread that some Eastern Rite Orthodox disapprove of having Western Rite Orthodoxy.

Why is that?

Fr. Alexander Schmemman explains it this way:

Quote
Notes and Comments on the "Western Rite"

The question of rites is precisely not, has never been and cannot be a mere question of rites per se, but is and has always been a question of faith, of its wholeness and integrity. The liturgy embodies and expresses the faith, or better to say, the experience of the Church, and is that experience's manifestation and communication. And when rites, detached from their nature and function, begin to be discussed in terms of "acceptance" and "rejection" or "likes and dislikes", the debate concerning them becomes meaningless.

For many people, the eastern and western rites are two entirely different and self-contained "blocks" ruling out, as an impure "hybridization", all contacts and mutual influences. This, however, is wrong - first of all, historically. In a sense, the entire history of Christian worship can be termed a history of constant "hybridizations" - if only this word is deprived of its negative connotations. Before their separations, the east and the west influenced one another for centuries. And there is no exaggeration in saying that the anaphora of St. John Chrysostom's Liturgy is infinitely 'closer' to the Roman anaphora of the same period than the service of Holy Communion in the Book of Common Prayer is to, for example, the Tridentine Mass.

What makes a western rite Orthodox? For many proponents of the western rite, all it takes is a few additions and a few deletions, e.g. "striking the filioque " and "strengthening of the epiclesis." This answer implies, on the one hand, that there exists a unified and homogenous reality identifiable as the western rite and, on the other hand, that except for two or three "heretical" ingredients or omissions, this rite is ipso facto Orthodox. Both presuppositions are wrong.

Indeed, one does not have to be an "authority on the West" in order to know that liturgical development in the West was shaped to a degree unknown in the East by various theologies, the succession of which - and the clashes of one with another - constitute western religious history. Scholasticism, Reformation, Counter-Reformation, etc., have all resulted in sometimes radical liturgical metamorphoses and all have had a decisive impact on worship. Therefore, one should speak today not of the western rite, but of western rites, deeply - if not radically - differing from one another, yet all reflecting in one way or another, the western theological tragedy and fragmentation. This does not mean that all these rites are "heretical" and simply to be condemned. It only means that, from an Orthodox point of view, their evaluation in terms merely of "deletions" and "additions" is - to say the least - inadequate. For the irony of our present situation is that while some western Christians come to Orthodoxy in order to salvage the rite they cherish (Book of Common Prayer, Tridentine Mass, etc.) from liturgical reforms they abhor, some of these reforms, at least in abstacto, are closer to the structures and spirit of the early western rite - and thus to the Orthodox liturgical tradition - than the later rite, those precisely that the Orthodox Church is supposed to "sanction" and to "adopt."

It is my deep conviction that the eastern liturgical tradition is alone today in having preserved, in spite of all historical "deficiencies", the fullness of the Church's lex orandi and constitutes, therefore, the criterion for all liturgical evaluations.

Father Alexander Schmemann (1920-1983)
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Interestingly enough, Fr. Schmemann was part of the of original Western Rite Vicariate Commission.
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« Reply #165 on: December 29, 2010, 02:10:16 PM »

I'm no expert on liturgy, but it sounds like the East's answer to Latinism, to me.
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« Reply #166 on: December 30, 2010, 07:10:16 AM »

It's been mentioned a few times in this thread that some Eastern Rite Orthodox disapprove of having Western Rite Orthodoxy.

Why is that?
It is not a question of disapproving that which the Church has pronounced licit.  Is having the WR resurrected more desirable than having all of the few WR missions worshipping together with the Byzantine majority?  In my view, no even though the WR is clearly licit.  The price that is paid for having the WR is fine if you don't mind having small missions of convert Orthodox largely living a spiritual life in isolation from the majority Orthodox world, albeit they have occasional episcopal visits, and their clergy do sometimes attend BR services.

 Doctrinal agreement with Byzantine Orthodoxy needs to be reflected in liturgy, the primary mark of Christian unity and this should not just be WR clergy attending or even concelebrating once in a while,but should involve all the laity worshipping together.  The problem with having Byzantine Orthodox worshipping in a WR mass is that it is just so foreign to them -particularly those built closely around Church of England (Anglican) useage - their offices, and their mass that you just won't get the average Greek or Russian to attend.  In many WR churches you cannot even light a candle before an icon of a saint.  It might as well be an Anglican chapel - and indeed today many Anglican Churches will have an icon of the Theotokos or Our Lord.

None of this is to deny the validity of the Western-rite or it's place in the scheme of things.  Clearly it needs numbers - a critical mass of laity, and enough trained clergy to get a momentum of it's own.  Ultimately it needs WR bishops.  

Is the WR the best medium to evangelise the West?  WR advocates like to claim that the Byzantine-rite loses 50% of it's converts.  Even if this doubtful figure was true, converts make up a significant and culture shifting element witin Orthodoxy in the diaspora today.  Everything a convert needs is here in the Byzantine-rite.  English prayer books. English liturgies.  Convert priests, monks, nuns, bishops and thousands of laity.   The Byzantine-rite has achieved that which the WR can only dream of at present.  

Arguably the Byzantine rite's biggest attraction is it's street credibility.  There is no playing with the semantics of "ye-olde Sarum", or of trying to say that my Western-rite is less Anglican than yours, or playing with the history books of Western society to seek to show that 1054 and the Great Schism didn't count for that much especially in the Celticosphere. In the Byzantine rite we have hundreds and indeed thousands of post-Schism saints - something that stopped dead in the water in 1054 in the West. We have holiness steeped in the lives of generation after generations of believers and it is this holiness that has impelled so many Westerners to look at Orthodoxy.

We live in a world shrunk by the internet and cheap travel, in which that which some call "Eastern" is not exotic at all.  That the "East" has come to the US, Australia and Western Europe has been a lived experience in our countries for over a hundred years.  Before the Russian and Greek and Arab diaspora to the West was an empty vacuum of a people ripe for the living holiness entering our midst from the East.  

By all means resurrect the DNA of Western Orthodoxy, but don't do it with Reformation Eucharists  with an Orthodox epiclesis  ( and a little more) and call it a "Usus Sarum"  "Liturgy", downplaying the Latin saints and popes of Western Orthodox Europe, that ironically are honoured in the Byzantine 'rite'. Westerners hungry for the authentic Orthodox Christian message want authentic holiness.  I have no doubt that it is there in the Western-rite in Orthodoxy but it's fruits are marked not just by claimed Sarum liturgical purity, or rivalry between this WR camp and another,  but by living congregations with real parish churches, monasteries that generate vocations and witness a living monastic life, with retreats for the laity, offices that we can attend, and holiness marked by a deep prayer life.

These things are not axiomatic in the so-called Byzantine rite either.  They are hard one prizes, and yet in the Byzantine Church - of Russia, Serbia, Antioch, Jerusalem and elsewhere it is the laity who honour, recognise, value and support these signals of the grace of God.  Such holiness will do more to win the so-called opponents of Western-rite Orthodoxy than any spurious arguments about Celtic Orthodoxy.

It is a noble and difficult task that the pioneers of Western-rite Orthodoxy are undertaking.  Concentration on holiness, on building meaningful parishes, on creating institutions of substance that goes beyond the blogosphere, build places where people want to come, to have their children baptised, and above all build relations with the Byzantine-rite, forgetting the cultural baggage of pax Anglicana and the British Empire, and just maybe there will no Byzantine rite critics of the Western-rite.
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« Reply #167 on: December 30, 2010, 09:19:49 AM »

It's been mentioned a few times in this thread that some Eastern Rite Orthodox disapprove of having Western Rite Orthodoxy.

Why is that?
It is not a question of disapproving that which the Church has pronounced licit.  Is having the WR resurrected more desirable than having all of the few WR missions worshipping together with the Byzantine majority?  In my view, no even though the WR is clearly licit.  The price that is paid for having the WR is fine if you don't mind having small missions of convert Orthodox largely living a spiritual life in isolation from the majority Orthodox world, albeit they have occasional episcopal visits, and their clergy do sometimes attend BR services.

 Doctrinal agreement with Byzantine Orthodoxy needs to be reflected in liturgy, the primary mark of Christian unity and this should not just be WR clergy attending or even concelebrating once in a while,but should involve all the laity worshipping together.  The problem with having Byzantine Orthodox worshipping in a WR mass is that it is just so foreign to them -particularly those built closely around Church of England (Anglican) useage - their offices, and their mass that you just won't get the average Greek or Russian to attend.  In many WR churches you cannot even light a candle before an icon of a saint.  It might as well be an Anglican chapel - and indeed today many Anglican Churches will have an icon of the Theotokos or Our Lord.

None of this is to deny the validity of the Western-rite or it's place in the scheme of things.  Clearly it needs numbers - a critical mass of laity, and enough trained clergy to get a momentum of it's own.  Ultimately it needs WR bishops.  

Is the WR the best medium to evangelise the West?  WR advocates like to claim that the Byzantine-rite loses 50% of it's converts.  Even if this doubtful figure was true, converts make up a significant and culture shifting element witin Orthodoxy in the diaspora today.  Everything a convert needs is here in the Byzantine-rite.  English prayer books. English liturgies.  Convert priests, monks, nuns, bishops and thousands of laity.   The Byzantine-rite has achieved that which the WR can only dream of at present.  

Arguably the Byzantine rite's biggest attraction is it's street credibility.  There is no playing with the semantics of "ye-olde Sarum", or of trying to say that my Western-rite is less Anglican than yours, or playing with the history books of Western society to seek to show that 1054 and the Great Schism didn't count for that much especially in the Celticosphere. In the Byzantine rite we have hundreds and indeed thousands of post-Schism saints - something that stopped dead in the water in 1054 in the West. We have holiness steeped in the lives of generation after generations of believers and it is this holiness that has impelled so many Westerners to look at Orthodoxy.

We live in a world shrunk by the internet and cheap travel, in which that which some call "Eastern" is not exotic at all.  That the "East" has come to the US, Australia and Western Europe has been a lived experience in our countries for over a hundred years.  Before the Russian and Greek and Arab diaspora to the West was an empty vacuum of a people ripe for the living holiness entering our midst from the East.  

By all means resurrect the DNA of Western Orthodoxy, but don't do it with Reformation Eucharists  with an Orthodox epiclesis  ( and a little more) and call it a "Usus Sarum"  "Liturgy", downplaying the Latin saints and popes of Western Orthodox Europe, that ironically are honoured in the Byzantine 'rite'. Westerners hungry for the authentic Orthodox Christian message want authentic holiness.  I have no doubt that it is there in the Western-rite in Orthodoxy but it's fruits are marked not just by claimed Sarum liturgical purity, or rivalry between this WR camp and another,  but by living congregations with real parish churches, monasteries that generate vocations and witness a living monastic life, with retreats for the laity, offices that we can attend, and holiness marked by a deep prayer life.

These things are not axiomatic in the so-called Byzantine rite either.  They are hard one prizes, and yet in the Byzantine Church - of Russia, Serbia, Antioch, Jerusalem and elsewhere it is the laity who honour, recognise, value and support these signals of the grace of God.  Such holiness will do more to win the so-called opponents of Western-rite Orthodoxy than any spurious arguments about Celtic Orthodoxy.

It is a noble and difficult task that the pioneers of Western-rite Orthodoxy are undertaking.  Concentration on holiness, on building meaningful parishes, on creating institutions of substance that goes beyond the blogosphere, build places where people want to come, to have their children baptised, and above all build relations with the Byzantine-rite, forgetting the cultural baggage of pax Anglicana and the British Empire, and just maybe there will no Byzantine rite critics of the Western-rite.
Please note I am not saying that there is no holiness in WR Orthodoxy or no problems in BR Orthodoxy.  Far from it.  The point I have tried to make is that those Westerners who have embraced Orthodoxy via the BR have in many instances been heavily influenced by the holiness they have encountered from monastics, from humble laity in a parish church, from liturgy that has not undergone the multiple reforms and new editions that has occurred in the West. Not shutting the doors and leaving out the dismissal of the catechumens is about as bad as it gets.

I mean just look at the Western rite.  Tridentinist missal masses in the US and elsewhere, masses and rites that are called "Sarum" but which differ between the US and elsewhere.  The Petrochian missions have their own "Usus Cascadae", plus an "English Liturgy" (mass) and Sarum rite.......it is all just too confusing, to have so much change from one chapel to the next. And that is before you even go to the Antiochian WRV who at least have some size, some history and some large parishes.
If you cannot have cooperation - and I mean real cooperation, not fraternal relations on paper, why would you expect to succeed in evangelism?

Go back to the "Eastern Orthodox".  We have substantial monastic houses, and humble sketes, in every country in the West.  Functioning communities, ,some even with real hermits - and not the travelling kind, but men of prayer and renunciation and solitude.  Power houses of the spirit. 

Now the West has some wonderful pre-Schism traditions of Benedictine monastic life.  That is what we need to see in the WR.  The Benedictine office, the Benedictine Rule - it is already happening in a couple of houses in the US, but it should be the monastic norm in the neophyte and tiny world of WR monastic life.  Forget the Celtic mists and settle on Benedictine substance.  That is something that would resonate with the laity.

A 2 hour all Slavonic liturgy served with deep prayerfulness by priest and people will always impress a western would-be-convert more than would-be Sarum masses aka liturgies if the odour of sanctity is missing.  Substance is the key - the tangible presence of God, marked by profound holiness and love.  Put these ingredients into the WR in abundance, and maybe the WR would get real churches, throw away the rented meeting rooms and get some real momentum and credibility.
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« Reply #168 on: December 30, 2010, 04:46:39 PM »

The problem with having Byzantine Orthodox worshipping in a WR mass is that it is just so foreign to them -particularly those built closely around Church of England (Anglican) useage - their offices, and their mass that you just won't get the average Greek or Russian to attend.  

And that is precisely why the Western rite is needed in Orthodoxy.  The Byzantine rite, beautiful though it is, is foreign to those of us steeped in traditional Anglicanism and Catholicism.
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« Reply #169 on: December 30, 2010, 05:29:44 PM »

Things take time and the Western Rite restoration is still very much in its infancy.  This is not lost on those of us involved.  Of course we need to get substantive monasteries going, of course there are numerous things we could be doing better.  We're working on it.

I've always appreciate this quote from Bishop BASIL:

"Whenever I attend a Western Rite conference or a small Western Rite parish, someone raises the topic of growth. It may surprise you, but in one sense I don’t care if Western Orthodoxy grows. Let me qualify that. This comment does not have to do just with the Western Rite, although I’m speaking in a Western Rite context now. I am not concerned about growth and numbers at all. Of course growth and numbers are good because they mean that more souls are being saved. In that sense I do hope that all come to the knowledge of the truth. And in that sense I am glad that so many people and parishes have become Western Orthodox.

But the worth and validity of the Western Rite do not depend on growth or numbers. What if only a single parish were to survive by God’s grace? What if somehow all of the seeds that you have planted and have tended for so long shrivel up, like many churches do in many places—Byzantine and Western Rite and Catholic and Lutheran and Methodist? If only one Western Orthodox parish flourishes someplace, then it is to the glory of God. It provides a home for someone of the Orthodox faith to worship God in a liturgical context in which they feel not only comfortable but authentic.

The faith that you hold, combined with the rite in which you practice that faith, is more important than anything else. You gentlemen know that. Indeed, that’s a message that’s been brought home to all Orthodox by you."

Yes, SubdeaconDavid, the big picture matters and we'd love nothing more than to see the ancient Western Rite restored in all its glory.  But at the same time, that's not really our concern or our focus.  We're concerned with becoming Orthodox, plain and simple.  And right now, all many of us can do is to continue on in our rented halls and meeting rooms, to that end.
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« Reply #170 on: December 31, 2010, 01:33:06 AM »

Things take time and the Western Rite restoration is still very much in its infancy.  This is not lost on those of us involved.  Of course we need to get substantive monasteries going, of course there are numerous things we could be doing better.  We're working on it.

I've always appreciate this quote from Bishop BASIL:

"Whenever I attend a Western Rite conference or a small Western Rite parish, someone raises the topic of growth. It may surprise you, but in one sense I don’t care if Western Orthodoxy grows. Let me qualify that. This comment does not have to do just with the Western Rite, although I’m speaking in a Western Rite context now. I am not concerned about growth and numbers at all. Of course growth and numbers are good because they mean that more souls are being saved. In that sense I do hope that all come to the knowledge of the truth. And in that sense I am glad that so many people and parishes have become Western Orthodox.

But the worth and validity of the Western Rite do not depend on growth or numbers. What if only a single parish were to survive by God’s grace? What if somehow all of the seeds that you have planted and have tended for so long shrivel up, like many churches do in many places—Byzantine and Western Rite and Catholic and Lutheran and Methodist? If only one Western Orthodox parish flourishes someplace, then it is to the glory of God. It provides a home for someone of the Orthodox faith to worship God in a liturgical context in which they feel not only comfortable but authentic.

The faith that you hold, combined with the rite in which you practice that faith, is more important than anything else. You gentlemen know that. Indeed, that’s a message that’s been brought home to all Orthodox by you."

Yes, SubdeaconDavid, the big picture matters and we'd love nothing more than to see the ancient Western Rite restored in all its glory.  But at the same time, that's not really our concern or our focus.  We're concerned with becoming Orthodox, plain and simple.  And right now, all many of us can do is to continue on in our rented halls and meeting rooms, to that end.
Thanks for sharing the beautiful quote from Bishop Basil
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« Reply #171 on: January 01, 2011, 11:40:52 PM »

Hopeful I know,

With the current crisis in the Anglican Communion, besides the vast numbers of Roman favouring clergy and laity flying toward the Tiber, there is also a strong Orthodox contingent within Anglicanism, largely the laity, but I know of quite a few clergymen who would like to consider it a possibility.

By maintaining the Liturgy of St. Tikhon (and other BCP based liturgies), it will surely make the transition for priest and parishoner easier. I do of course realise that there is a great number of Orthodox (my old self included) who felt that a journey to Orthodoxy ought to resemble the Twelve Labours of Heracles in terms of ease.
There are a great number of Anglicans out there who are confused about what to do. Do they go to Rome and inherit her error or go to Orthodoxy and abandon the cultural language of the Church as revealed to the English people?


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« Reply #172 on: January 02, 2011, 03:00:10 AM »

Hopeful I know,

With the current crisis in the Anglican Communion, besides the vast numbers of Roman favouring clergy and laity flying toward the Tiber, there is also a strong Orthodox contingent within Anglicanism, largely the laity, but I know of quite a few clergymen who would like to consider it a possibility.

By maintaining the Liturgy of St. Tikhon (and other BCP based liturgies), it will surely make the transition for priest and parishoner easier. I do of course realise that there is a great number of Orthodox (my old self included) who felt that a journey to Orthodoxy ought to resemble the Twelve Labours of Heracles in terms of ease.
There are a great number of Anglicans out there who are confused about what to do. Do they go to Rome and inherit her error or go to Orthodoxy and abandon the cultural language of the Church as revealed to the English people?
Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.
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« Reply #173 on: January 04, 2011, 11:43:21 AM »

Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

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« Reply #174 on: January 04, 2011, 04:00:04 PM »

Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

Ebor
I understand that this is how you feel.  What exactly do you find challenging about the Byzantine rite?  I also feel that for me at least, that submission to God and His Church requires of me that I give up in some way my own preferences, which is how I have approached religion for much of my life.  My other challenge with the WR is not that it is Western, because the Anglican mass that I grew up with is so close to the so-called St. Tikhon liturgy or the BCP based mass aka liturgy used by the ROCOR WR. 

I am challenged by the multiplicity of WR usage even within  ROCOR, let alone when you look at Antioch.  It troubles me how little connection there is in reality between those in the WR - and by that I mean charitable, fraternal sharing.  One group even try and restrict their prayer-book from those outside their group - even canonical Orthodox priests!  Too much seems to depend on the individual characteristics - strengths and weaknesses of individual WR leaders, whose own connection with the majority so-called Byzantine rite may be limited or frayed. 

When every 'monastery' or mission uses a slightly different rite from the next WR place - some calling virtually the same mass English and others Sarum and others Gregorian (or Tridentine to their WR opponents) and these centres have a handful of laity, where is the unity - the lived unity?  I think that the WR need to achieve far greater meaningful - i.e. actual unity in reality (not the paper-thin unity of a shared Creed) for it to be taken seriously.  Maybe then our episcopates will see fit to appoint WR bishops and this will allow the WR to develop further. 
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« Reply #175 on: January 04, 2011, 04:06:05 PM »

Byzantine Liturgy is not unified too. Beatitudes vs. no Beatitudes, flat fellonions vs. high felonions, all that different stuff that is sung/read while clergy communes, litany for catechumens vs. no litany for catechumens, 1 hour lasting vs. 2.5 hour lasting, different times where sermon and collection is, 5 prosphoras vs. one prosphora, chalice blessings vs. no chalice blessings... And I haven't ever mentioned St Basil Liturgy.
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« Reply #176 on: January 04, 2011, 05:17:32 PM »

I am challenged by the multiplicity of WR usage even within  ROCOR, let alone when you look at Antioch.

The Antiochian Western Rite is pretty uniform actually.  We have one approved missal with which we conduct our services, many parishes serving both liturgies.
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« Reply #177 on: January 05, 2011, 12:29:31 PM »

I am challenged by the multiplicity of WR usage even within  ROCOR, let alone when you look at Antioch.

The Antiochian Western Rite is pretty uniform actually.  We have one approved missal with which we conduct our services, many parishes serving both liturgies.
Arguably the western theological mindset has had a huge influence of the Antiochian Archdiocese in the USA - clergy wearing western style clericals outside of liturgical worship, beardless bishops and priests ( some), the New Calendar to name a few that stand out.  Some of these I suspect are even barriers to non-Antiochian WR being closer to the Antiochian WR Vicariate.

The level of dispute amongst WR clergy in particular in relation to liturgy i.e. the Western-rite mass is amazing with some labelling Antiochian WR as "Tridentine" because you have a high mass with 6 candles on the altar, which is anathema to ye-olde Sarum purists.
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« Reply #178 on: January 05, 2011, 02:08:23 PM »

I am challenged by the multiplicity of WR usage even within  ROCOR, let alone when you look at Antioch.

The Antiochian Western Rite is pretty uniform actually.  We have one approved missal with which we conduct our services, many parishes serving both liturgies.
Arguably the western theological mindset has had a huge influence of the Antiochian Archdiocese in the USA - clergy wearing western style clericals outside of liturgical worship, beardless bishops and priests ( some), the New Calendar to name a few that stand out.  Some of these I suspect are even barriers to non-Antiochian WR being closer to the Antiochian WR Vicariate.

The level of dispute amongst WR clergy in particular in relation to liturgy i.e. the Western-rite mass is amazing with some labelling Antiochian WR as "Tridentine" because you have a high mass with 6 candles on the altar, which is anathema to ye-olde Sarum purists.

It is common knowledge that the "western" dress and beardlessness of clergy in the Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America is a result of directives issued from and enforced by His Eminence, the Most Reverend Metropolitan PHILIP. See this thread for one example: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=31038.0. The "western theological mindset," whatever that vague generalization means, is not the cause here.
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« Reply #179 on: January 05, 2011, 02:35:39 PM »

I am challenged by the multiplicity of WR usage even within  ROCOR, let alone when you look at Antioch.

The Antiochian Western Rite is pretty uniform actually.  We have one approved missal with which we conduct our services, many parishes serving both liturgies.
Arguably the western theological mindset has had a huge influence of the Antiochian Archdiocese in the USA - clergy wearing western style clericals outside of liturgical worship, beardless bishops and priests ( some), the New Calendar to name a few that stand out.  Some of these I suspect are even barriers to non-Antiochian WR being closer to the Antiochian WR Vicariate.

The level of dispute amongst WR clergy in particular in relation to liturgy i.e. the Western-rite mass is amazing with some labelling Antiochian WR as "Tridentine" because you have a high mass with 6 candles on the altar, which is anathema to ye-olde Sarum purists.

It is common knowledge that the "western" dress and beardlessness of clergy in the Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America is a result of directives issued from and enforced by His Eminence, the Most Reverend Metropolitan PHILIP. See this thread for one example: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=31038.0. The "western theological mindset," whatever that vague generalization means, is not the cause here.
Given that Catholic/Episcopalian style clergy shirts with dog-collars has no Eastern precedent and that beards have both canonical and historical and Biblical reasons for their use in the Church by clergy from Apostolic times to this day, what do you base the decision of His Eminence Metropolitan Phillip (Saliba) to direct his bishops and clergy in such a way on?  Is it about fitting in with US secular society?  Is it about being ecumenical? The Roman Church is trying to undo Vatican II's de-sacralization of churches and modernist Orthodox thinking is not so different - "relevance" with the world.

I appreciate that many in the Self-Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese hold much more traditionalist Orthodox views about such things and that it appears that much depends on the rulings of your chief hierarch.
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« Reply #180 on: January 05, 2011, 02:45:14 PM »

I am challenged by the multiplicity of WR usage even within  ROCOR, let alone when you look at Antioch.

The Antiochian Western Rite is pretty uniform actually.  We have one approved missal with which we conduct our services, many parishes serving both liturgies.
Arguably the western theological mindset has had a huge influence of the Antiochian Archdiocese in the USA - clergy wearing western style clericals outside of liturgical worship, beardless bishops and priests ( some), the New Calendar to name a few that stand out.  Some of these I suspect are even barriers to non-Antiochian WR being closer to the Antiochian WR Vicariate.

The level of dispute amongst WR clergy in particular in relation to liturgy i.e. the Western-rite mass is amazing with some labelling Antiochian WR as "Tridentine" because you have a high mass with 6 candles on the altar, which is anathema to ye-olde Sarum purists.

It is common knowledge that the "western" dress and beardlessness of clergy in the Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America is a result of directives issued from and enforced by His Eminence, the Most Reverend Metropolitan PHILIP. See this thread for one example: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=31038.0. The "western theological mindset," whatever that vague generalization means, is not the cause here.
Given that Catholic/Episcopalian style clergy shirts with dog-collars has no Eastern precedent and that beards have both canonical and historical and Biblical reasons for their use in the Church by clergy from Apostolic times to this day, what do you base the decision of His Eminence Metropolitan Phillip (Saliba) to direct his bishops and clergy in such a way on?  Is it about fitting in with US secular society?  Is it about being ecumenical? The Roman Church is trying to undo Vatican II's de-sacralization of churches and modernist Orthodox thinking is not so different - "relevance" with the world.

I appreciate that many in the Self-Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese hold much more traditionalist Orthodox views about such things and that it appears that much depends on the rulings of your chief hierarch.

I do not presume to know the mind of His Eminence. I do not believe that a "western theological mindset" influences him in any way whatsoever. Your alternative suggestions are probably closer to the truth, IMO.
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« Reply #181 on: January 06, 2011, 12:33:54 PM »


It troubles me how little connection there is in reality between those in the WR - and by that I mean charitable, fraternal sharing.  One group even try and restrict their prayer-book from those outside their group - even canonical Orthodox priests! 

 

One suspects that a group with such a high level of xenophobia will not be successful and will simply fade away.
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« Reply #182 on: January 06, 2011, 02:08:17 PM »

It is kind of funny (and sad) to hear the discussion on the Western Rite. Have any of you actually attended or even know a Western Rite Orthodox. We are fully Orthodox in our mindset, theology, and community values. Most of what has been said on this thread is of no value

1.We do not commune non Orthodox and if that was to be done we would see it as heresy.
2.We have the same standard beliefs as all are canonical Orthodox brethren.
3.Are rite is Western, but our hearts and minds are completely in union with Orthodox beliefs.
4.Our local church has always participated in any of the pan Orthodox events in the area, and we are always well represented in any Orthodox service or event in our area. The people who know us, know us as brother and sisters in the Orthodox faith.
5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could

Many of the comments in this thread are highly offensive. I don’t get the whole eat and attack you brother thing. Our faith is much bigger than our small prejudices. The Church was whole for nearly 1000 years, (east and west). Is it not time we strive to make it whole again.

Please find the time to attend a Western Rite church.
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« Reply #183 on: January 06, 2011, 02:41:41 PM »

5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could
You mean, your local parish doesn't baptize by full emersion?
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« Reply #184 on: January 06, 2011, 02:51:49 PM »

Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

Ebor

It took me five of my seven years to learn to love the eastern liturgy as much as I had loved the western. It's not easy. Some people take to it like the proverbial duck and others nearly drown.

Regards,
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« Reply #185 on: January 07, 2011, 06:13:51 AM »

Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

Ebor
It took me five of my seven years to learn to love the eastern liturgy as much as I had loved the western. It's not easy. Some people take to it like the proverbial duck and others nearly drown.

Regards,
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Today as I struggled with a straight English baptism service book to keep up with the Serbian of the baptisimal rite sung by a Serbian priest, using Slavonic as "the choir" and reading the Epistle and Creed in English, it struck me that for the Serbian archimandrite who served our Nativity liturgy today and then the baptism, that he recognised the place of English and of Western converts in the big picture of Orthodoxy.  This was profoundly comforting.

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« Reply #186 on: January 09, 2011, 02:25:39 PM »

5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could
You mean, your local parish doesn't baptize by full emersion?

Neither does the OCA's national cathedral in Washington, DC (St. Nicholas). They do for babies but not adults.
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« Reply #187 on: January 09, 2011, 05:05:15 PM »

5.We do not baptize by full emersion --- the reason, our small local church does not have the facility to do so. We would definitely do so if we could
You mean, your local parish doesn't baptize by full emersion?
Tongue

Ours doesn't have the facilities either, but we use the river when its warm and built a modest size baptismal font out of an old oil drum, encasing it inside an insulated wooden box to use in the small narthex when it's cold. Cheesy It can be done.

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« Reply #188 on: February 26, 2011, 06:10:36 PM »

Here are a couple of message from Indiana, from 1998 and 2008, which illustrate the difficulty with Western Rite growth.  In October this year there will be a Joint Antiochian-ROCA Conference on Western Rite and I am hoping that mission will be a key topic on the agenda.  Anybody have any thoughts?

Subject:Re: Orthononsense and Alice in Jurisdictionland
On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, ST. PETROC MONASTERY
<stpetrocabbey@TRUMP...... AU> wrote:

>FROM: Fr. Michael, St. Petroc Monastery

> This Monastery has a task from our Archbishop to actively go and bring people into Orthodoxy - I have at present, current enquiries from clergy and people to become Orthodox in six cities. These will of necessity involve new Parishes - can you imagine the howls of clerical pain when these Parishes are erected?<

-oOo-

From:Fr Ambrose <emrys@GLOBE.......NZ>
Reply-To:Orthodox Christianity <orthodox@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Date:Thu, 14 Aug 2008


Dear Father Michael,

We have been listening for 10 years now, awaiting these "howls of clerical pain."

But all has been remarkably quiet and no clerics have been heard howling. :-)

I take it that these six Western Rite parishes in six Australian cities did not eventuate?

Now that you have 10 years of active missionary work under your belt, working to bring the Anglo-Saxon-Celts of Australia to Orthodoxy and have a seasoned and first-hand knowledge of the difficulties, what are your thoughts on the lack of interest in Western Rite liturgy?  In light of this lack of success do the monks of Saint Petroc envisage changes to their missionary approach?  It must be disappointing to the Archbishop that his hopes of the monastery bringing people into Orthodoxy via the Western Rite have not materialised.  Do you think that changing to the Byzantine Rite would be more successful in  mission work in Australia?

Fr Ambrose

-oOo-
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« Reply #189 on: February 26, 2011, 09:50:49 PM »

    Here are a couple of message from Indiana, from 1998 and 2008, which illustrate the difficulty with Western Rite growth.  In October this year there will be a Joint Antiochian-ROCA Conference on Western Rite and I am hoping that mission will be a key topic on the agenda.  Anybody have any thoughts?

    Subject:Re: Orthononsense and Alice in Jurisdictionland
    On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, ST. PETROC MONASTERY
    <stpetrocabbey@TRUMP...... AU> wrote:

    >FROM: Fr. Michael, St. Petroc Monastery

    > This Monastery has a task from our Archbishop to actively go and bring people into Orthodoxy - I have at present, current enquiries from clergy and people to become Orthodox in six cities. These will of necessity involve new Parishes - can you imagine the howls of clerical pain when these Parishes are erected?<

    -oOo-

    From:Fr Ambrose <emrys@GLOBE.......NZ>
    Reply-To:Orthodox Christianity <orthodox@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
    Date:Thu, 14 Aug 2008


    Dear Father Michael,

    We have been listening for 10 years now, awaiting these "howls of clerical pain."

    But all has been remarkably quiet and no clerics have been heard howling. :-)

    I take it that these six Western Rite parishes in six Australian cities did not eventuate?

    Now that you have 10 years of active missionary work under your belt, working to bring the Anglo-Saxon-Celts of Australia to Orthodoxy and have a seasoned and first-hand knowledge of the difficulties, what are your thoughts on the lack of interest in Western Rite liturgy?  In light of this lack of success do the monks of Saint Petroc envisage changes to their missionary approach?  It must be disappointing to the Archbishop that his hopes of the monastery bringing people into Orthodoxy via the Western Rite have not materialised.  Do you think that changing to the Byzantine Rite would be more successful in  mission work in Australia?

    Fr Ambrose


    -oOo-
    The earlier quoted email from Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) or (Wood) predicated success that has not realised half a dozen thriving parishes since he wrote this in 1998.  In 2011 my understanding from ROCOR sources in Australia is that the Paruchia of St. Petroc has a limited number of operations:

    The web references are not Petrochian sources but obtained from the Russian Church Abroad's Australian website at http://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=2

    • St. Petroc Monastery - Cascades, Tasmania http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=321&lang=en- abbatial seat of Fr. Abbott Michael who is resident in the United Kingdom  now. No other resident monastics i.e.  St. Petroc's is currently empty.

      St. Dyfan  Mission Sandy Bay Tasmania - 1 x subdeacon, 2 x regular laity and 1 non-Orthodox attendee (plus 4 others by account who attend occasionally) One of the WR congregation said they are looking for new worship premises
    http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=376&lang=en

    St. Stephen Mission Launceston Tasmania: consists of the only ROCOR Western-rite priest left living in Australia, Fr. Barry Jefferies and his matushka who serve the Hobart St. Dyfan's congregation fortnightly.http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=169&lang=en

    University Western-rite Mission Sandy Bay Tasmania - see St. Dyfan's entry because St. Dyfan's use the University Ecumenical Chapel.[urlhttp://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=1486][/url]

    The total for the Paruchian Western-rite in Australia is thus very small.  No Western-rite churches or missions in the major metropolitan cities at all- Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth.  Tiny Hobart has one mission left and one priest in Tasmania - currently this one priest is the sum total  oF ROCOR WR clergy in Australia at time of writing with no more than 10 laity in Australia.

    By contrast, if one looks at the ROCOR Australian clergy directory you will see a number of Australian priests, and English language missions in Melbourne (2), an indigenous Aboriginal mission, and English language missionary activity in most parishes of note such as Adelaide, with Fr. Peter Hill, an Australian priest-monk in Dandenong parish and more.  The converts do keep coming, if not in droves but steadily, and all seem to integrate in time into the Russian Church Abroad.  The monastic presence is especially vibrant for Australians in the Byzantine rite with men and women monastics of Australian convert origin.

    Perhaps by being extra-diocesan and not under the authority of local bishops and deans, the Western-rite world-wide is being starved of helpful association with brother clergy, of funds because the massive Byzantine rite at leats has scope for significant fund raising, of well-meaning laity and clergy who just might be supportive of Western-rite Orthodox missionary life. Perhaps integration of the Western-rite into the wider Orthodox Church's ecclesiastical and cultural life could bring much needed support and life.  Indeed with elderly clergy, without Western-rite ordinations, the future of the Paruchia is most uncertain in Australia at least.  

    There is no doubt that Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)  had put in a lot of effort in his Western-rite endeavours over the years, and I am sure it saddens him that so much hard work has  been unfruitful at least in terms of what he wrote in 1998 predicting parishes in most Australian major cities. Nonetheless the Paruchia has it's admirers and loyalists who value the efforts expended to revive English Western-rite Orthodoxy. Hopefully today's admission of a Columban novice will be a moment of joy in the life of the Paruchia. May the Lord bless Sister Margaret and Fr. Michael in this solemn revival of Columban rule monastic life to Orthodoxy. This is a sign of life and hope.

    It is useful to reflect on what has not worked and to find ways of moving forward.  In regard to Australia, I think that the Western-rite is likely to merge with the Byzantine-rite through sheer necessity in time if there are no Western-rite priests available to serve.  Indeed unless converts are made and retained, the Western-rite will never have the critical mass to survive,   Hopefully the fact that the Byzantine rite of ROCOR commemorate the Western saints and honours the pre-Schism history of the Western Church liturgically, and the fact that so much worship is in English now will be of comfort down the track.

    If the Byzantine rite is what the majority of converts to Orthodoxy are embracing why is that?  Maybe to younger generations of western people in a world where travel, the internet and modern education have broken down cultural walls, the barriers to the West embracing the East are no longer relevant, except for a minority. Maybe the cultural relevance of a form of Western Christianity that is no loner visible in the liturgical life of the Latin Church and Anglican Church ( the Tridentine mass and BCP mass) means that Western people are more and more unchurched, and find the Eastern Church no harder to connect with than the Western Church?  Indeed without possessing in the main, parish church buildings, the Western-rite is at a further disadvantage in winning converts.

    None of this is to deny the efficacy of the pre-Schism Western Orthodoxy.  After all it is Eastern Orthodox who have revived the veneration of saints and holy places long forgotten in Western European Christian history both Anglican and Latin.[/list]
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    « Reply #190 on: February 27, 2011, 12:43:49 PM »

    Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

    But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

    Ebor
    I understand that this is how you feel.  What exactly do you find challenging about the Byzantine rite?

    I find your use of "challenging" to be interesting as though this is a subject in school.  It is not, but a matter of personal worship and Our Lord.  It is possible that were I to write of some things on the EO liturgy that there would be others who would be hurt or think that I was somehow "attacking" their personal devotions and worship.  Since I am a guest here, I do not wish to cause such offense even inadvertently. 

    Quote
     I also feel that for me at least, that submission to God and His Church requires of me that I give up in some way my own preferences, which is how I have approached religion for much of my life. 

    This seems to say, please correct me if I am misunderstanding you, that you hold that only the practices of the EO are the one proper and acceptable way to worship the Father and Creator of all things.


    Ebor
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    « Reply #191 on: February 27, 2011, 12:45:25 PM »

    Personally I think the so-called Byzantine Orthodox liturgy served in ecclesiastical English is culturally very comfortable to me as an Australian and as someone who lived and breathed the Church of England.

    But that is, as you wrote, how you feel.  There are others for whom the Byzantine Liturgy is not culturally nor worshipfully "comfortable".  I am one such.

    Ebor

    It took me five of my seven years to learn to love the eastern liturgy as much as I had loved the western. It's not easy. Some people take to it like the proverbial duck and others nearly drown.

    Regards,
    Margaret
    in Edinburgh

    And some are not ducks nor any other kind of water fowl, but belong in a different "ecosystem".   Wink 

    Regards,

    Ebor
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    « Reply #192 on: March 23, 2014, 08:36:16 PM »


    Sunday, March 21, 2010
    New Western Rite Abbot

    I discovered on Tuesday, March 16, 2010, that Fr. Hieromonk David (Pierce) has been confirmed in the rank of Abbot by Metropolitan Hilarion, first hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Dom David's community, formerly named Holyrood after the Holy Cross, now bears the name "Dormition Monastery."

    Source :: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/



    Today is Sunday, March 23, 2013

    Abbot David (Pierce), my beloved Godson, fell asleep in the Lord at 2:45am today as the result of an aggressive brain cancer.

    May his Memory be Eternal.

    Please pray for his soul, especially in these first 30 days. And please pray for me, the unworthy handmaiden of God, Elizabeth. I am just devastated.

    With Love in Christ, and trusting in the Resurrection,
    Elizabeth Riggs
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    « Reply #193 on: March 23, 2014, 08:45:02 PM »

    Lord have mercy.

    Memory eternal.
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    « Reply #194 on: March 23, 2014, 10:57:05 PM »

    May his memory be eternal.
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    « Reply #195 on: March 23, 2014, 11:46:24 PM »

    Abbot David (Pierce), my beloved Godson, fell asleep in the Lord at 2:45am today as the result of an aggressive brain cancer.
    So sorry for your loss.  Lux perpetua luceat ei.
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    « Reply #196 on: March 26, 2014, 03:13:23 PM »

    I have never been to a WR liturgy, but from what I've seen in the Internet, these liturgies look like Anglican liturgies.

    These liturgies might attract former Anglicans but not Traditional Latin Christians because of some aspects of the liturgy itself (use of vulgar tongues, Anglican anthems, etc.).

    The WR would probably be more succesful if they celebrated the liturgy in Latin (or at least part of it in Latin) and following the Latin tradition more closely.

    In my country, an Orthodox Latin mass would be succesful if it's given propper promotion. However, the hierarchs would have to be careful so that this new mission doesn't cause confusion among the faithful or make others think that their church is a RC Church.

    The Western Rite of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America uses the Liturgy of St. Gregory, which is the pre-Vatican II Roman Mass with a few revisions to conform to Orthodox theology. I believe that some Western Rite Parishes even serve it in Latin, at least occasionally.

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    « Reply #197 on: March 26, 2014, 03:55:59 PM »

    I plan to attend & visit a Western Rite service this Sunday Cool thread God bless
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    « Reply #198 on: March 26, 2014, 10:56:39 PM »

    I plan to attend & visit a Western Rite service this Sunday Cool thread God bless

    I should have mentioned that the Western Rite of the Antiochian Archdiocese also uses the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, which is 1928 American Book of Common Prayer with a few revisions to conform to Orthodox doctrine. So you may visit an Antiochian Western Rite parish and not see the Liturgy of St. Gregory.

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    « Reply #199 on: March 31, 2014, 06:31:06 AM »

    I was RC for 61 years, received into Orthodoxy  2 yrs ago. I staters instructions I. A Greek church, liked the litugy, but couldn't understand it. On this site found reference to WR. Attended a service and loved it, I work away from my home parish and sometimes attend the Eastern Liturgy(Antiochian ) in English and am starting to like it maybe better. Two points, our priest frequently in a sermon will start a sentence with" what we believe as Orthodox is........, we were a mission at first and recently built our first church, we are theologically orthodox. Diverse congregation few RC some Anglican, many from non liturgical background, point being it is insulting for some posters to look into our hearts and assume they know what motivates us. I know that if the western rite vanished, I would simply attend an Eastern rite. We are encourage to attend our neighboring parishes. Second point, even though the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom was the original one as described in the acts of the Apostles........but wait it isn't ,I still like the Liturgy of St Gregory. Let the hateful, ignorant replies flow freely.
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