Topic: Vesperal Liturgies

[Fr. George]

However, I think the principle can be expanded when speaking about other Vesperal Liturgies and feastdays.

Fr.,

Forgive me for being a grammar snob, but after reading your first paragraph of your post, it leads me to believe that you wanted a "don't" included after your "however" of the second paragraph, which would make more sense since you used that particular adversative.  Am I correct?  Or am I just being snobbish as usual?

Actually, my "however" is in response to something left unsaid by me but implied by the text referred to (Fr. Schmemman's book) - that the timing of Liturgy w/ regards to the feastday & fasting of the day is well prescribed & fairly set in stone.   I didn't realize that I did this (setting up the adversative without stating the actual adversarial position).

[LBK]

Fr George, this is why I mentioned Fr Alexander's book. What he writes about the Lenten vesperal liturgies applies just as much to the ad hoc ones.

Really, his discussion of timing in the book isn't actually about Presanctified Liturgies per se, but a general discussion of Feasts-Fasting-Liturgy.  However, his point about other times (outside of weekdays in Lent) is that evening Liturgy is for full fast days or very Major feasts, and that minor feasts/commemorations should be celebrated around noon, and Vigil days (& Sundays) should be in the morning.  But my thought is that our definition of what deserves a big build-up can be expanded.  Vesperal Liturgy for St. Nicholas?  He is one of the 3-5 most revered Saints in Christendom.  If his feast doesn't fall on a Sunday or Monday, why not?  I can understand not celebrating Vesperal Liturgy for, say, St. John the Russian, since there isn't as big a build-up.  How about a general allowance, that if a feastday falls on a Thurs or Sat in your parish, that you can do Vesperal Liturgy the evening before (full day of fasting on Wed or Fri)?

Interesting you should mention St Nicholas, Father, he is the patron saint of the church I attend, and he is very likely the patron of more Orthodox churches than any other saint in the world. For those whose jurisdictions follow the old calendar, this feast falls on a Saturday this year. Your suggestion for a vesperal liturgy for him sounds plausible, but would be unthinkable in parishes where he is the patron saint. Certainly in the church I have attended these past 13 years, nothing short of a full Vigil on the eve, and a Liturgy the following morning, irrespective of which day the feast falls on, will do.

I know I'm only a layman, and I do not wish seem like I'm telling clergy how to do their job. But having had lifelong experience with both Slavic and Greek "flavors" of Orthodoxy, may I suggest a perhaps more suitable pastoral alternative to a vesperal liturgy when a feast of reasonable rank falls on a weekday: adopt (with episcopal blessing, of course!) the Greek custom of transferring the celebration of a major feast from a weekday to the following Sunday, with a Vigil on the Saturday evening. I know that this is also permissible in Slavic tradition, particularly for patronal feasts. That way, the liturgical riches of Matins are still available, and people can still commune on the Sunday.

[Deacon Lance]

You answered your own question, because it is inherently greater and that is where we receive the Eucharist.  I mean you will always have a few diehards who understand the importance of Vespers/Orthros, but your average parishioner just isn't at that level.  

This is a most patronising comment, Fr Lance, both in your implication that the Vigil is a mysterious, arcane entity, inaccessible and incomprehensible to the "average" parishioner, and in characterising regular attendees of Vigils as "diehards".

A few years ago, a layman at my parish took the initiative (with the priest's permission) to compile and print bilingual vigil texts for many of the feasts in booklet form and make them available to anyone who wanted them. People of all generations and backgrounds (humble and educated) were soon saying much the same thing: For the first time I've had the chance to understand what going to this service is all about! It's a matter of education, not coercion.

LBK,

It wasn't meant as an insult.  Simply a statement, one that I think is generally true.  Every parish has a small group who is very devout and will come to every and any service.  The majority of parishioners do not come.  And I am not refering to services in Greek or Slavonic, most Churches around here have all English services.  You can educate all you want my Church has been doing it for several years now, most people aren't coming to Church more than once a week.  If you can get more than the few who come anyways by having Evening Vesperal Liturgy I am all for it.  Of course as a deacon I have no say in the matter.  Transfering a Feast to Sunday is also a reasonable solution.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Fr. George]

Interesting you should mention St Nicholas, Father, he is the patron saint of the church I attend, and he is very likely the patron of more Orthodox churches than any other saint in the world. For those whose jurisdictions follow the old calendar, this feast falls on a Saturday this year. Your suggestion for a vesperal liturgy for him sounds plausible, but would be unthinkable in parishes where he is the patron saint. Certainly in the church I have attended these past 13 years, nothing short of a full Vigil on the eve, and a Liturgy the following morning, irrespective of which day the feast falls on, will do.  

Maybe St. Nicholas is a bad example - but St. Demetrios, St. George, Prophet Elias, St. Panteleimon, St. Haralambos, St. John Chrysostom, St. John the Apostle, Evangelist, and Theologian are likely better examples.  Highly revered, but if their feastday falls on a weekday, then likely attendance will suffer because of work.

Of course, maybe the true answer lies in the most ancient of Christian practices: prayer before work, prayer after work.  But what priest & cantor want to start early enough to finish Liturgy before 8am?

I know I'm only a layman, and I do not wish seem like I'm telling clergy how to do their job.

When respectful, the opinion is respected, IMO.  Like now!

But having had lifelong experience with both Slavic and Greek "flavors" of Orthodoxy, may I suggest a perhaps more suitable pastoral alternative to a vesperal liturgy when a feast of reasonable rank falls on a weekday: adopt (with episcopal blessing, of course!) the Greek custom of transferring the celebration of a major feast from a weekday to the following Sunday, with a Vigil on the Saturday evening. I know that this is also permissible in Slavic tradition, particularly for patronal feasts. That way, the liturgical riches of Matins are still available, and people can still commune on the Sunday.

Eh, in Greek practice (that I've seen & experienced) feast transferring is rare and I believe should remain quite rare (Annunciation {Holy Friday/Saturday to Pascha}, St. George {April 23 to Bright Monday}, and a few others like St. Nicholas Planas {weekday to Saturday} and Sts. Nicholas, Raphael and Irene {? to Bright Wednesday} come to mind, but all their transfers are because of Great Lent-en considerations).

[Basil 320]

TO REPLY #34

I cannot understand why discretion and flexibility should equate to throwing out the Typicon.  This attitude is a phenomenon in today's society in many aspects, work rules, laws etc.  God has given us a brain to think with and and intellect with which to discern.  The exercise of Economy is an example of the Church's appreciation for clerical discernment. Otherwise, computers could make all decisions for society. We can make exceptions for particular reasons, such as accommodating the schedules of the faithful, and continue to adhere to whatever rule, such as the Typicon. I've advocated for some level of use of the Vesperal Liturgies, which, I don't not have a strong opinion about, but I am not criticising the Typicon in general.

[LBK]

Fr Lance

The layman who has taken the initiative I described is, in fact, not of the ethnic ancestry of the parish in which this has been done. Yet an effort was made by this person to learn at least enough of the liturgical language in both spoken and written form to get by, acquire the liturgical texts, and learn enough rubrics to compile the service booklets. Quite an achievement, I must say, and one which "shamed" many in the parish community.

Fr George

Where I come from, the Greek transfer of higher-ranking (non-patronal) feasts from a weekday to the following Sunday is quite common. The feasts you mentioned are in this group, but, in my experience of Greek practice, a number of feasts outside of lenten periods were similarly transferred. In my Slavic experience, one of the few non-patronal feasts I have come across which is commonly transferred is that of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco, in churches of the ROCOR jurisdiction, perhaps because of the justifiably immense devotion of Russians to this saint.

[Fr. George]

Where I come from, the Greek transfer of higher-ranking (non-patronal) feasts from a weekday to the following Sunday is quite common. The feasts you mentioned are in this group, but, in my experience of Greek practice, a number of feasts outside of lenten periods were similarly transferred. In my Slavic experience, one of the few non-patronal feasts I have come across which is commonly transferred is that of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco, in churches of the ROCOR jurisdiction, perhaps because of the justifiably immense devotion of Russians to this saint.

Interesting.  I'd probably prefer, if the options were between moving the feast or doing a Vesperal Liturgy, the latter, depending on the feast.

[LBK]

Where I come from, the Greek transfer of higher-ranking (non-patronal) feasts from a weekday to the following Sunday is quite common. The feasts you mentioned are in this group, but, in my experience of Greek practice, a number of feasts outside of lenten periods were similarly transferred. In my Slavic experience, one of the few non-patronal feasts I have come across which is commonly transferred is that of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco, in churches of the ROCOR jurisdiction, perhaps because of the justifiably immense devotion of Russians to this saint.

Interesting.  I'd probably prefer, if the options were between moving the feast or doing a Vesperal Liturgy, the latter, depending on the feast.

... with the blessing of your bishop, of course ... 

[Fr. George]

... with the blessing of your bishop, of course ... 

Actually, as the 2nd priest, I can't even talk to my Bishop about official stuff without permission of the Proistamenos.

[LBK]

Fair enough. As I said, I don't want to come across as telling you how to do your job.   

[ilyazhito]

tonight, I went to church expecting to sing the Vespers service to St. Barbara and St. John Damascene and instead it was the Vesperal Liturgy.  So, not only was I cheated out of the entire second part of Vespers, but also the whole of Orthros and the beginning of the Divine Liturgy. I don't know whose bright idea this whole thing was, but I say it shouldn't be used.  I know I'm probably in the minority on this, but I'm really frustrated with their existence.

+1! Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco would agree with you. (He abolished Vesperal Liturgy in the DOW, except for where it was needed). I agree!

[serb1389]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

[Deacon Lance]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

[serb1389]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

1. My understanding is that they are 2 different liturgies on 2 different days. No Christmas Eve liturgy is for the 24th & Christmas Day liturgy is for 25th

2.  If they are BOTH for the same day, how did that happen? Out of economy? Because you can't have 2 liturgies on the same day unless you have 2 altars & 2 priests

[Basil 320]

As to Vesperal Liturgies conducted on Christmas Eve, I think item 1 above is correct.  The Liturgy is that of December 24th, but I'm not sure about the Vespers, though I think it's of the 24th too.

[Dominika]

As to Vesperal Liturgies conducted on Christmas Eve, I think item 1 above is correct.  The Liturgy is that of December 24th, but I'm not sure about the Vespers, though I think it's of the 24th too.

I think so. Similar situation is with the feast of the Martyrs of Sebaste: in my parish there was the Liturgy of Presantificated Gifts (so done with Vespers) in the evening of the 9th of March, so when They're commemorated. The same happen during Holy Week, but it's a special case for Vesperal Liturgies.

Also in the eve of Theophany the Liturgy is for the 5th of January. After the Vesperal Liturgy (at least in my parish) the icon of the Theopany is solemnly brought into the centre of the church during singing the festal troparion.

For this moment I remember only one Vesperal Liturgy for the e\next day: it's Liturgy of Presantificated Gifts of the first Friday of the Great Lent, which treats about st. Theodor the Tyron. However, in my parish it was in the morning, so for me it was a Friday's Liturgy and on the next day I was again on the Liturgy, but of st. John Chrysostom

[Deacon Lance]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

1. My understanding is that they are 2 different liturgies on 2 different days. No Christmas Eve liturgy is for the 24th & Christmas Day liturgy is for 25th

2.  If they are BOTH for the same day, how did that happen? Out of economy? Because you can't have 2 liturgies on the same day unless you have 2 altars & 2 priests

Can't be.  Christmas Eve is a Fast day.  Any way you slice it on Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha two Liturgies are served on the same Liturgical day on one altar by one priest less than 24 hours apart.  These three Feasts supercede the rule.

[serb1389]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

1. My understanding is that they are 2 different liturgies on 2 different days. No Christmas Eve liturgy is for the 24th & Christmas Day liturgy is for 25th

2.  If they are BOTH for the same day, how did that happen? Out of economy? Because you can't have 2 liturgies on the same day unless you have 2 altars & 2 priests

Can't be.  Christmas Eve is a Fast day.  Any way you slice it on Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha two Liturgies are served on the same Liturgical day on one altar by one priest less than 24 hours apart.  These three Feasts supercede the rule.

Do you know how that happened?  I really thought that they are their own liturgies, just like on Holy Saturday

[Deacon Lance]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

1. My understanding is that they are 2 different liturgies on 2 different days. No Christmas Eve liturgy is for the 24th & Christmas Day liturgy is for 25th

2.  If they are BOTH for the same day, how did that happen? Out of economy? Because you can't have 2 liturgies on the same day unless you have 2 altars & 2 priests

Can't be.  Christmas Eve is a Fast day.  Any way you slice it on Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha two Liturgies are served on the same Liturgical day on one altar by one priest less than 24 hours apart.  These three Feasts supercede the rule.

Do you know how that happened?  I really thought that they are their own liturgies, just like on Holy Saturday

I don't.  The exception that proves the rule?  But even Holy Saturday isn't its own liturgy.  What is happening on Pascha is we celebrate the old Cathedral Rite Paschal Liturgy on Holy Saturday and the normal Sabbaite Paschal Liturgy on Pascha Sunday.  We perceive the Vesperal Liturgy to be non-Paschal because it lacks features we associate with Pascha like "Christ is Risen" but this tropar was simply not part of the Cathedral Rite in Hagia Sophia.

[serb1389]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

1. My understanding is that they are 2 different liturgies on 2 different days. No Christmas Eve liturgy is for the 24th & Christmas Day liturgy is for 25th

2.  If they are BOTH for the same day, how did that happen? Out of economy? Because you can't have 2 liturgies on the same day unless you have 2 altars & 2 priests

Can't be.  Christmas Eve is a Fast day.  Any way you slice it on Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha two Liturgies are served on the same Liturgical day on one altar by one priest less than 24 hours apart.  These three Feasts supercede the rule.

Do you know how that happened?  I really thought that they are their own liturgies, just like on Holy Saturday

I don't.  The exception that proves the rule?  But even Holy Saturday isn't its own liturgy.  What is happening on Pascha is we celebrate the old Cathedral Rite Paschal Liturgy on Holy Saturday and the normal Sabbaite Paschal Liturgy on Pascha Sunday.  We perceive the Vesperal Liturgy to be non-Paschal because it lacks features we associate with Pascha like "Christ is Risen" but this tropar was simply not part of the Cathedral Rite in Hagia Sophia.

I see your point.  Could this be said for Christmas & epiphany as well?

[genesisone]

I don't.  The exception that proves the rule?  But even Holy Saturday isn't its own liturgy.  What is happening on Pascha is we celebrate the old Cathedral Rite Paschal Liturgy on Holy Saturday and the normal Sabbaite Paschal Liturgy on Pascha Sunday.  We perceive the Vesperal Liturgy to be non-Paschal because it lacks features we associate with Pascha like "Christ is Risen" but this tropar was simply not part of the Cathedral Rite in Hagia Sophia.

I see your point.  Could this be said for Christmas & epiphany as well?

I am by no means an expert on these things. However, I might speculate that since Theophany is liturgically very rich, that its set of services was patterned after Pascha. It is my understanding that Christmas is a somewhat later development in liturgical history and was patterned after Theophany, which at one time included commemoration of the Nativity.

Now, moving back to the general idea of Versperal Liturgies: during Advent this year, we have planned a service every Wednesday beginning November 14, alternating between the Advent Paraklesis and three VDLs, namely Entrance of the Theotokos (which we know we're celebrating a day late, but felt the consistency of Wednesday services was important; then in December for St Nicholas and for St Ignatius (our parish patron).

As was said years ago in this thread, it's unfortunate that we are getting just bits of two services. I know the argument can be made that at least we're remembering the feasts, and doing what we can to encourage attendance. However, I feel that we really aren't doing justice to the Feasts - there's little content concerning the point of the Feast in the portions that make up the VDL. It would, IMO, be better to have a Vespers service (with few if any abbreviations), making that a major event in itself. I also think that we need - and I'm speaking of people in my own parish - to get our congregations out of the "the only important service is the DL" mindset. So it is my position that these VDLs are really a disservice to our people.

Because of our limited parish resources, it's practical for us to have only one service at Christmas. Once again (last year's Sunday Dec 25 made an exception), our priest has announced that it will be the VDL with St Basil's Liturgy. I'm disappointed about that decision. I think we'll have had our fill of VDLs in the previous weeks for one thing. Then, this service is the least joyous of the Christmas services. It is not one to which I would invite family (all non-Orthodox) or friends, but I would invite them to join me for Orthros + DL of St John C - especially if it were at midnight. That hour would create interest in itself, and is certainly not unusual in this community due to the high number of RCs who do celebrate Midnight Mass at Christmas. I really had my heart set on attending a Christmas Eve service at a church of one of my family members. I'm thinking I'm going to go ahead and do that anyway. My priest won't be happy about that - I generally anchor the chanters - but I am annoyed that he made that announcement with no consultation of the congregation. I know there are others who, like me, have family obligations that we like to attend to just once a year, so I am concerned about the attendance in any case.

[Dominika]

Now, moving back to the general idea of Versperal Liturgies: during Advent this year, we have planned a service every Wednesday beginning November 14, alternating between the Advent Paraklesis and three VDLs, namely Entrance of the Theotokos (which we know we're celebrating a day late, but felt the consistency of Wednesday services was important; then in December for St Nicholas and for St Ignatius (our parish patron).

That's good that your parish is celebrating some special services during Advent. Not so many parish organzie something special (at least in Poland). And it's very important fast and it would be good thath in this special time people spend more time in church and on shopping

Because of our limited parish resources, it's practical for us to have only one service at Christmas. Once again (last year's Sunday Dec 25 made an exception), our priest has announced that it will be the VDL with St Basil's Liturgy. I'm disappointed about that decision. I think we'll have had our fill of VDLs in the previous weeks for one thing. Then, this service is the least joyous of the Christmas services. It is not one to which I would invite family (all non-Orthodox) or friends, but I would invite them to join me for Orthros + DL of St John C - especially if it were at midnight. That hour would create interest in itself, and is certainly not unusual in this community due to the high number of RCs who do celebrate Midnight Mass at Christmas. I really had my heart set on attending a Christmas Eve service at a church of one of my family members. I'm thinking I'm going to go ahead and do that anyway. My priest won't be happy about that - I generally anchor the chanters - but I am annoyed that he made that announcement with no consultation of the congregation. I know there are others who, like me, have family obligations that we like to attend to just once a year, so I am concerned about the attendance in any case.

It's a bit shocking and as you said, it's not good that the priest hadn't consulted it with the parishoners. I think it's not appropraite, e.g so beautiful Canon of the Nativity is sung in the enitiry during the Orthros. Only the katavasias can be chanted during the Vesperal Liturgy of st. Basil. Great Compline + Matins + Divine Liturgy of st. John Chrystosom for the Nativity celebrated at midnight are one of the most beautiful services. It's a big waste for the congregation...

[choy]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

[Dominika]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

[choy]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I can only speak for myself, but this is hard even for me.  I guess it depends where the church is.  If the church is in downtown, it is doable.  The church I am looking to go to is about 15kms east of where I live.  I work 25kms west, they are in completely different directions.  Plus I have small children who I still have to wake up, dress up, get ready, and bring to daycare in the morning.  If Vesperal Liturgy is at 7pm, I have enough time to leave work, pick-up from daycare, then go to church.  Probably have some snacks for the kids.

One of the things I appreciated as a Catholic is the easy access to Liturgy.

[Alveus Lacuna]

What about a full Vespers, Matins and then the liturgy all on the eve of the feast? Nobody misses any of the cycle, but most can come. And heck, the "liturgy only" crowd can just show up later in the evening and skip Vespers and Matins. What say ye?

[Punch]

What about a full Vespers, Matins and then the liturgy all on the eve of the feast? Nobody misses any of the cycle, but most can come. And heck, the "liturgy only" crowd can just show up later in the evening and skip Vespers and Matins. What say ye?

No

[Shanghaiski]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I wish we did that.

I also wish we did at least a couple morning presanctified liturgies in Lent.

[Shanghaiski]

What about a full Vespers, Matins and then the liturgy all on the eve of the feast? Nobody misses any of the cycle, but most can come. And heck, the "liturgy only" crowd can just show up later in the evening and skip Vespers and Matins. What say ye?

No

That would be the Greek way, agripnia, yes?

[ialmisry]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I'm not a morning person, and, given rush hour traffic in Chicago, it wouldn't matter even if I were.  The Typikon was made for man, not man for the Typikon, and I've yet to see the explanation for the cosmos coming to a grinding halt by celebrating Vesperal DL other than on the days that the Pharisees celebrate them.

[ialmisry]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I wish we did that.

I also wish we did at least a couple morning presanctified liturgies in Lent.

Now THAT I have a problem with.

[Shanghaiski]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I wish we did that.

I also wish we did at least a couple morning presanctified liturgies in Lent.

Now THAT I have a problem with.

LOL. What was that you were just saying about not celebrating the Typicon with the Pharisees?

[ialmisry]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I wish we did that.

I also wish we did at least a couple morning presanctified liturgies in Lent.

Now THAT I have a problem with.

LOL. What was that you were just saying about not celebrating the Typicon with the Pharisees?

I said I have a problem with it. I didn't say I'd make a problem over it.

I can't imagine a problem that would necessitate having them AM instead of PM, but they had to, they'd have to.

[genesisone]

What about a full Vespers, Matins and then the liturgy all on the eve of the feast? Nobody misses any of the cycle, but most can come. And heck, the "liturgy only" crowd can just show up later in the evening and skip Vespers and Matins. What say ye?

Certainly a marathon especially for parishes that are short on clergy, altar servers, and singers (chanters and/or choir). But it might be well worth the effort. I'd be willing to explore it. My priest - in his early 70s - would claim lack of stamina for all of that. But I'd be willing to go with a reader's Vespers and even Orthros and have the priest begin to lead at the DL. Reader's services would also be briefer - the hymns and readings would be there for the most part, but with many of the prayers reduced to "Lord have mercy" (x 12 or 40) - but even many of those are eventually repeated in the DL. OK - I think I've talked myself into it  !

[ilyazhito]

author=FrGeorge

Maybe St. Nicholas is a bad example - but St. Demetrios, St. George, Prophet Elias, St. Panteleimon, St. Haralambos, St. John Chrysostom, St. John the Apostle, Evangelist, and Theologian are likely better examples.  Highly revered, but if their feastday falls on a weekday, then likely attendance will suffer because of work.

Of course, maybe the true answer lies in the most ancient of Christian practices: prayer before work, prayer after work.  But what priest & cantor want to start early enough to finish Liturgy before 8am?

By the way, that is what St. John the Baptist Cathedral (Washington,DC ROCOR)  does. Their workday liturgies start at 6:40, and end sometime before 9:00. Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco(ROCOR) has daily liturgies at 8:00 every morning, and vigil at 6:00 every evening. Some other churches also have daily liturgy at relatively early hours.

[ialmisry]

author=FrGeorge

Maybe St. Nicholas is a bad example - but St. Demetrios, St. George, Prophet Elias, St. Panteleimon, St. Haralambos, St. John Chrysostom, St. John the Apostle, Evangelist, and Theologian are likely better examples.  Highly revered, but if their feastday falls on a weekday, then likely attendance will suffer because of work.

Of course, maybe the true answer lies in the most ancient of Christian practices: prayer before work, prayer after work.  But what priest & cantor want to start early enough to finish Liturgy before 8am?

By the way, that is what St. John the Baptist Cathedral (Washington,DC ROCOR)  does. Their workday liturgies start at 6:40, and end sometime before 9:00. Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco(ROCOR) has daily liturgies at 8:00 every morning, and vigil at 6:00 every evening. Some other churches also have daily liturgy at relatively early hours.

Curious: how many show up?

[MarkosC]

Sorry to post late to this thread.

To start, the ideal minimum of course is Vespers the day before, then Orthros and Liturgy in the morning of the feast.   If you want to have services outside of weekday working hours, there are a limited number of variants on your options (keep the ideal, do DL only at night, do Vespergy, do Vespers+Orthros as Vigil, do Vigil+Liturgy, do Vigil/Vespers only).

I've seen two options not discussed in this thread:

1. Have Vespers the night before and then Liturgy the evening of (e.g. at 7:00PM Tuesday and 7:00PM Wednesday of a major feast).  A Greek Catholic parish I know does this.   Why is this not commonly done?

2. Have Vespers at a "normal" time (e.g. 6PM) and then have Orthros/Liturgy later that night (8PM and 9PM).   The Church of St. Demetrius in Thessalonica -the only Orthodox parish I'be been to that has regular daily Vespers*, Orthros, and Divine Liturgy and shifts of cantors/priests to fit this schedule - did this for one polyeleos feast in November (and had Orthros/Liturgy again the next day with another shift of cantors/priests!  As an aside, they're good at keeping Orthros and DL to an hour each)

I think all of the options have good points and bad points, and that in the end it's the pastor's decision as to what's best for the sheep of a particular parish.   We must pray that he does so wisely.   

IMO, we're also hampered by a "church is an hour or two on Sunday except for parish events and for extra special traditional feasts" mentality.   I find that the same people who attend Vespers and Orthros are also the same people who come for feast day liturgies.   My experience is that basic mentality is prevalent in both Greek Catholic and Orthodox parishes.  i.e. no one is in church at the hexapsalms, people trickle in during Orthros, but only start really getting in during the Doxology. 

Markos

* another parish in Thessalonica has daily Vespers - right next to the arch of Galerius, I forgot what it's called - with maybe 4-5 regular  attendees.  One night a Greek rap concert was going out at the arch, and not only could you hear the "music" clearly during the litanies but opening the door meant that the service was inaudible until the door was shut again.   

[Mor Ephrem]

Since I was looking for something else and stumbled upon this,

Thread resurrection!

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

1. My understanding is that they are 2 different liturgies on 2 different days. No Christmas Eve liturgy is for the 24th & Christmas Day liturgy is for 25th

2.  If they are BOTH for the same day, how did that happen? Out of economy? Because you can't have 2 liturgies on the same day unless you have 2 altars & 2 priests

Can't be.  Christmas Eve is a Fast day.  Any way you slice it on Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha two Liturgies are served on the same Liturgical day on one altar by one priest less than 24 hours apart.  These three Feasts supercede the rule.

Do you know how that happened?  I really thought that they are their own liturgies, just like on Holy Saturday

I don't.  The exception that proves the rule?  But even Holy Saturday isn't its own liturgy.  What is happening on Pascha is we celebrate the old Cathedral Rite Paschal Liturgy on Holy Saturday and the normal Sabbaite Paschal Liturgy on Pascha Sunday.  We perceive the Vesperal Liturgy to be non-Paschal because it lacks features we associate with Pascha like "Christ is Risen" but this tropar was simply not part of the Cathedral Rite in Hagia Sophia.

I have a theory on why there are two Liturgies for the one feast of Nativity in the Byzantine rite (it may also apply to the Armenian tradition, but I can't say).  It's not official, but it is based on some loose ends I picked up along the way in my reading and by comparison with the Syriac tradition. 

According to my reading, there was, in the Holy Land, a tradition where the Patriarch of Jerusalem, with his clergy and the faithful, would process from Jerusalem to Bethlehem in the evening and celebrate, after the appropriate evening service, a Liturgy at the Church of the Nativity.  After this, they would return in procession to Jerusalem to celebrate, after the appropriate morning services, the Liturgy at the Church of the Resurrection.  What gives it away, IMO, is the Gospel pericope read at each service: that of the evening service is focused on events at Bethlehem (e.g., the birth, the appearance of the angel to the shepherds) while that of the morning service focuses on events which took place at Jerusalem (e.g., the visit of the Magi with Herod "who came to Jerusalem" to inquire where the newborn king of the Jews could be found). 

This pattern holds true in at least two rites with a hagiopolite* influence: Byzantine and Syriac.  I'm not certain if Jerusalem had an evening service and Bethlehem a morning service independent of the Patriarch (two Liturgies in one day in each church), or if all the people basically shifted back and forth with the bishop (two Liturgies in one day, but only one per church), but the Byzantine rite has retained the two Liturgies for the one feast, and the readings line up to match my description above. 

In the Syriac tradition (at least as practiced in India), we are pretty strict regarding the celebration of more than one Liturgy per day, so another practice has developed.  The Midnight Office on Christmas includes, after its third watch, a procession to the Western end of the church.  The theme of the hymns sung during the procession is the journey to Bethlehem.  When the procession has reached its destination, the same Epistle and Gospel read at the Byzantine rite Vesperal Liturgy is read.  In the middle of the Gospel (the Lucan account of the Nativity), when we hear about the appearance of the angel and the singing of their hymn, the celebrant lights a bonfire (appropriate for a night service celebrated at least partly outdoors).  While he does this, the people sing "Glory to God in the highest, etc." thrice as it appears in the Gospel text, followed by the Great Doxology which begins with the same words (it is anticipated here, its usual place being toward the end of the Midnight Office).  Usually, there is a procession around this fire (while the Doxology is sung), if not by all the people, then at least by the clergy.  Then the Gospel reading is picked up again, concluded, and they process back into the church and towards the altar/bema, where the holy cross is elevated as on 14 September (we do this on a few feasts throughout the year).  During the procession back into the church, the accompanying hymn has as its theme the return journey from Bethlehem and the proclamation of that which we have seen and witnessed there.  After the Midnight Office is concluded, it is followed by Matins, the Hours, and the Liturgy, where the Gospel is, as expected, the same as in the Byzantine rite: the Matthean account of the arrival of the Magi in Jerusalem. 

In summary, I think what's going on here is that two related liturgical rites are preserving remnants of an ancient hagiopolite practice, adapted to their own liturgical sensibilities.  I don't know how much this holds true for the Armenians, but they have an evening and a morning Liturgy for Nativity (in at least one sense, two Liturgies for one day).  Also, they have never separated this celebration from Epiphany as the rest of us have.  Perhaps this helps make sense of why Epiphany also has an arrangement of services similar, if not identical, with Christmas (the Armenian rite is related to both the Byzantine and Syriac rites and also has considerable hagiopolite influence).             



*of the holy city.

[Deacon Lance]

So the Syriac Rite knows no days with double Liturgies, not even Pascha?

[Mor Ephrem]

So the Syriac Rite knows no days with double Liturgies, not even Pascha?

No.  We have a Liturgy on Holy Saturday, but it is celebrated after Ninth Hour and before the Paschal Vespers.  Its hymns and rubrics follow the Holy Week order and not the ordinary or Lenten variations, and it is commonly, though not by necessity, celebrated in black vestments.  Its Gospel is a repetition of the Matthean account of the burial of Christ, but its Epistles have baptismal/paschal themes (I Peter 3 and Romans 6).  So it is somewhat transitional, but leaning toward Holy Week, whereas the Byzantine Paschal Vigil is transitional but leaning toward the feast. 

If there is ever a "double Liturgy", it is always a pastoral provision (e.g., two Liturgies, two priests, two altars, one day), never a requirement of a "typicon". 

[Deacon Lance]

That is interresting.  Do you know what the Coptic or Ethiopian practice is?

[Mor Ephrem]

That is interresting.  Do you know what the Coptic or Ethiopian practice is?

While I defer to them, I think their equivalent of the Byzantine Vesperal Liturgy for Christmas is actually a Liturgy for the day before the feast (IOW, Christmas Eve morning/day), and not a "first Liturgy" of the feast itself. 

[Shanghaiski]

What about a full Vespers, Matins and then the liturgy all on the eve of the feast? Nobody misses any of the cycle, but most can come. And heck, the "liturgy only" crowd can just show up later in the evening and skip Vespers and Matins. What say ye?

Now, now, that would be too logical!

[Shanghaiski]

So the Syriac Rite knows no days with double Liturgies, not even Pascha?

No.  We have a Liturgy on Holy Saturday, but it is celebrated after Ninth Hour and before the Paschal Vespers.  Its hymns and rubrics follow the Holy Week order and not the ordinary or Lenten variations, and it is commonly, though not by necessity, celebrated in black vestments.  Its Gospel is a repetition of the Matthean account of the burial of Christ, but its Epistles have baptismal/paschal themes (I Peter 3 and Romans 6).  So it is somewhat transitional, but leaning toward Holy Week, whereas the Byzantine Paschal Vigil is transitional but leaning toward the feast. 

If there is ever a "double Liturgy", it is always a pastoral provision (e.g., two Liturgies, two priests, two altars, one day), never a requirement of a "typicon". 

Between the ninth hour and vespers? Kind of sneaking it in, then, in the time between times.

[Mor Ephrem]

Between the ninth hour and vespers? Kind of sneaking it in, then, in the time between times.

I suppose you could look at it that way, yes. 

Typically, we celebrate the Liturgy after the singing of the Sixth Hour.  For the most part, this is true of Liturgies on days of fasting as well, but on certain days (e.g., Wednesday of the Fast of the Ninevites, Holy Saturday), we are instructed to celebrate the Liturgy only after the Ninth Hour in order to keep the day's fast at its normal length rather than shortening it.  To celebrate the Liturgy in conjunction with Vespers or after Vespers would prevent its celebration the following morning (since it would count for the next liturgical day, not the present liturgical day).  So the Liturgy is celebrated between Ninth Hour and Vespers (on Holy Saturday, traditionally there should be a "Rite of Forgiveness" served after the Liturgy to end the period of Great Lent/Holy Week, similar in order and content to the "Rite of Forgiveness" which begins Great Lent, but this is rarely served nowadays). 

When the Paschal Vespers is served, it is served most festively, the only differences from a normal Festal Vespers being related to the situation of the Tomb.