Vesperal Liturgies

[scamandrius]

tonight, I went to church expecting to sing the Vespers service to St. Barbara and St. John Damascene and instead it was the Vesperal Liturgy.  So, not only was I cheated out of the entire second part of Vespers, but also the whole of Orthros and the beginning of the Divine Liturgy. I don't know whose bright idea this whole thing was, but I say it shouldn't be used.  I know I'm probably in the minority on this, but I'm really frustrated with their existence.

[Schultz]

Coming from a Greek Catholic background, these are nothing new to me so they don't annoy me as much as they might a cradle or an Orthodox Christian from another background.  I would prefer not to have them (aside from the prescribed ones) but I can understand their use in today's society.  We have them occasionally at my parish for some feasts, but for more solemn ones (like the Feast of our patron St. Andrew earlier this week), we have both vespers and DL the following morning (we never do Matins).  If they are exceptions to the rule, rather than become the rule, then I think they're fine, so long as the local ordinary is okay with them.

But I can certainly understand your frustration.

[arimethea]

While I am not a big of Vesperal Liturgy being served when they are not called for by the Typikon (and yes there are Vesperal Liturgies called for by the Typikon), I would say they do serve a purpose in parish use.

First there is nothing un-canonical about their use, you can argue that they are a corruption of the tradition but there is nothing in the canons that forbid this service.

As for robbing the faithful of the complete cycle of the service I would argue that the Vesperal Liturgy actually adds to the cycle since were these services are being done the people are not attending Vespers or Orthros. So instead of just showing up for liturgy and missing all of Vespers and Orthros the faithful at least get to hear part of the hymns for Vespers. The serving of these services in the evening also allows for the entire family to participate because of the early start times for schools which prohibit school age children from attending.

These are just some of the pastoral considerations for these services that I hope allow you to rejoice that people are encouraged to celebrate the feast.

[Fr. George]

I think it's actually nice to sprinkle Vesperal Liturgy in a few times per year.  We take the "Matins then Liturgy" thing for granted in the Roman/Greek tradition, when it can be done after Matins, after 6th Hour, or after Vespers.  It certainly is more common than people realize, though: the pair around Christmas & Theophany, the pair in Holy Week, plus every Wednesday, Friday, and non-Annunciation weekday feast in Lent.  It's a nice change of pace.

[scamandrius]

Just to clarify, I am not opposing the presanctified Liturgies in Lent, nor the Vesperal Liturgies for Nativity Eve, Theophany Eve, Holy Saturday.  I am referring to festal Vesperal Liturgies outside of Great Lent.

[Basil 320]

I try not to support variations from what tradition prescribes, but I think an enhanced use of Vesperal Liturgies would be a development to address the needs of the faithful in a society that precludes or significantly impedes access to Liturgical life.  (Admittedly, people could use vacation time from work to attend church services, if they have enough time to use, but they don't.) The people in my parish and others in my area do not have an appreciation for Orthros or Vespers.  They avoid them.  Vesperal Liturgies would help attract more interest in Vespers, exposing them to the beauty of our hymnology, and provide them more access to the Liturgy and the Eucharist.

[LBK]

Or you could follow the Slavic custom of a Vigil (vespers and matins) on the eve of a feast. Sure, it's not a Eucharistic service, but the theological and doctrinal riches are immense.

[SolEX01]

I've been fortunate to have attended Vespers for the feastdays of the 4 Orthodox Churches (plus one in Annapolis) in Central MD.

None of them is performed as a Vesperal Divine Liturgy.  More than 50% of Vespers services is in Greek even in instances when half the Orthodox Clergy present is non-Greek.  I particularly enjoy hearing the Old Testament readings....

[wynd]

My two cents: Our parish priest has a secular job, so if it weren't for vesperal liturgies we wouldn't have any service for feasts.

[Michał Kalina]

I've never heard about such things.

[Schultz]

You don't do vesperal liturgies, even the prescribed ones (as noted by scamandarius above), mike?

[Michał Kalina]

I don't know what exactly is a vesperal Liturgy, but if you mean midnight office + matins + hours + Liturgy served at night we do such only on Pascha, Nativity and St. Basil/ Circumcision of Christ Day.

[Fr. George]

I don't know what exactly is a vesperal Liturgy, but if you mean midnight office + matins + hours + Liturgy served at night we do such only on Pascha, Nativity and St. Basil/ Circumcision of Christ Day.

Vesperal Liturgy is a combined service.  You begin Vespers, and continue through the Old Testament readings.  After the final OT reading, the deacon intones "Let us pray to the Lord," and the Priest say "For you are holy..." and the Choir sings the Trisagion hymn (or its designated replacement).  The Divine Liturgy continues from there (readings, etc.). 

[Schultz]

A vesperal liturgy is usually vespers up to the little litany after the Old Testament readings for the Feast and then the DL of St. John starting from the the Trisagion onwards.  There are no kathisma read at the beginning, either.  It's in the Typikon for Christmas, Theophany and Holy Thursday.

[Schultz]

I just found a fascinating article on the topic by Bishop TIKHON of the OCA Diocese of the West entitled Evening Divine Liturgies. 

While, as noted above, I'm not opposed to these in practice, His Excellency's words are very persuasive that these should not be done outside of the prescribed ones.

[scamandrius]

Thanks, Schultz, for posting those words of His Grace, Bishop TIKHON.  What I found most poignant is despite the justification priests give for serving the Evening Vesperal Liturgies to accommodate the modern working man is that doing this actually does damage to the growth of the parish.  He writes:

Even in parishes that serve the Matins in the morning, the Faithful are not deprived of this beauty and "on-going education" provided by the provisions of our Holy Typikon. To serve a "Vesperal" Liturgy is to suppress that all, or to kill the possibility of the parish ever growing up into its full stature. I believe that nothing worthwhile was ever attained or will be attained by lowering our sights, our expectations.

[Schultz]

I found his comments on life in Soviet Russia to be most inspiring, especially his final comments on how we live in the most prosperous nation in the world and we still find excuses (5b).

It certainly has me leaning now towards actually having a (negative) opinion on vesperal liturgies.

[Fr. George]

I just found a fascinating article on the topic by Bishop TIKHON of the OCA Diocese of the West entitled Evening Divine Liturgies.  

While, as noted above, I'm not opposed to these in practice, His Excellency's words are very persuasive that these should not be done outside of the prescribed ones.

I'd be interested if other hierarchs are of the same opinion.

[Deacon Lance]

The fact that Bishop Tikhon (and Bishop Nikolai), while being a stickler for rubrical exactitude, thought there was nothing wrong in the OCA (when most of the clergy and laity knew otherwise) leads me to discount what he he has to say about the subject.  He comes off like many other converts, fiaxted on ritual without pastoral concern.

One forgets the Typicon was written when the Emperor/King ensured the people could attend all the feastday services and the services had no competition.  The bottom line is we live in America and most people work daylight shifts making it impractical if not impossbile to attend morning services during the week.  One can maintain the Typicon and have empty churches on feastdays as I have witnessed at several churches, Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox, or make a pastoral compromise and have Evening Vesperal Liturgies with decent attendance.  At least at Vesperal Liturgies the people get to hear the Stichera which are the most ancient and important of the texts anyways.  As to whether these should be mandated or not becomes a difficult question.  I understand the idea that even if they are allowed they should not be mandated so that a priest/parish can take the full cycle but really one could do that anyway even if the Vesperal Litrugy is taken, taking Small Vespers before Liturgy and Matins the morning of the feast.

[Deacon Lance]

I just found a fascinating article on the topic by Bishop TIKHON of the OCA Diocese of the West entitled Evening Divine Liturgies.  

While, as noted above, I'm not opposed to these in practice, His Excellency's words are very persuasive that these should not be done outside of the prescribed ones.

I'd be interested if other hierarchs are of the same opinion.

Well not the Antiochians as they have mandated Evening Vesperal Liturgies for the Great Feasts that do not fall on Sunday or Monday and allow them for  the Feasts of: Circumcision/St. Basil, St. Anthony, Three Hierarchs, St. George, Sts. Constantine and Helen, SS. Peter and Paul, St. Elias, Beheading of St. John Baptist, The Archangels, St. Philip the Apostle, St. Nicholas, and  St. Ignatius.

I believe some OCA bishops allow them as well.

[Irish Hermit]

A quick internet search shows that Presanctified Liturgy in the evening was something fostered in the US by Fr Alexander Schmemann.
 
Also this article shows that in the 70s the Presanctified was being served in the morning in both the US and in Russia.
http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/theodosius.html   

[Irish Hermit]

The 19th century liturgical textbooks of Nikolsky and Neapolitansky both say that the Presanctified Liturgy should begin at 10 a.m. (while the "full Liturgy" should be at 6 a.m. for an "early" service, and 9 a.m. for the "late" Liturgy).

[Salpy]

Do the EO's ever have regular liturgies in the evening?  In the Armenian Church we have a liturgy on Christmas Eve and Easter Eve.  It starts at 6:00 p.m. and it is just a regular liturgy.  

It follows an hour long service during which Bible passages pertaining to the feast day are read, concluding with the song of the three youths from Daniel.  After that service is done, they just start a regular liturgy.  The funny thing about it is that if Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday, there is no liturgy in the morning, because you can't have two liturgies in a day.  They just do matins.

Anyway, I am just wondering if the EO's ever do regular liturgies in the evenings, or if you just do the vesperal liturgies.

[Andrew21091]

I have mixed feelings about the Vesperal Liturgies. I like them though since I would not be able to go to a morning liturgy on a feast so it is nice to be able to recieve communion for the feasts. At my parish, for major feast days (Transfiguration, Dormition, etc) we do Vesperal liturgies since people cannot come in the morning. I would like it though if we replaced the Vesperal Liturgy with a vigil but for one the Antiochians don't do vigils (at least I've never seen one done in an Antiochian church) so the Vesperal Liturgy is fine with me for the most part.

[Fr. George]

A quick internet search shows that Presanctified Liturgy in the evening was something fostered in the US by Fr Alexander Schmemann.
 
Also this article shows that in the 70s the Presanctified was being served in the morning in both the US and in Russia.
http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/theodosius.html     

In the Greek monastic tradition they still do Presanctified Liturgies in the morning.  However, I think it's "cheating" w/ regards to the fast.  Evening Liturgies should be in the evening.

[arimethea]

A quick internet search shows that Presanctified Liturgy in the evening was something fostered in the US by Fr Alexander Schmemann.
 
Also this article shows that in the 70s the Presanctified was being served in the morning in both the US and in Russia.
http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/theodosius.html   

I have been told by people who grew up in the Middle that the Presanctified service is usually celebrated around the noon hour on Wed. of Lent in order to celebrate the "Lord of Host" service (aka Great Compline) in the evening.

[Basil 320]

Notice that this topic began with a poll.

I've noticed that not all of the those commenting on this topic are completing the poll, based on the comments that are being made. 

[ialmisry]

Do the EO's ever have regular liturgies in the evening?  In the Armenian Church we have a liturgy on Christmas Eve and Easter Eve.  It starts at 6:00 p.m. and it is just a regular liturgy. 

It follows an hour long service during which Bible passages pertaining to the feast day are read, concluding with the song of the three youths from Daniel.  After that service is done, they just start a regular liturgy.  The funny thing about it is that if Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday, there is no liturgy in the morning, because you can't have two liturgies in a day.  They just do matins.

Anyway, I am just wondering if the EO's ever do regular liturgies in the evenings, or if you just do the vesperal liturgies.

Only after midnight, i.e. Pascha and Nativity, or New Years (the latter is not original, but has been catching on.  Some do it around 8 ).

We have the same rule on one DL per day per altar.  I think all Orthodox do (I know Copts do).

Fixed the 8 ) smiley thing... Fr. George, GM

[ialmisry]

Notice that this topic began with a poll.

I've noticed that not all of the those commenting on this topic are completing the poll, based on the comments that are being made. 

I voted none,  but had nothing particular to say.

[Fr. George]

Notice that this topic began with a poll.

I've noticed that not all of the those commenting on this topic are completing the poll, based on the comments that are being made.   

I hadn't even noticed the poll... Thank you for the heads-up.

[scamandrius]

The fact that Bishop Tikhon (and Bishop Nikolai), while being a stickler for rubrical exactitude, thought there was nothing wrong in the OCA (when most of the clergy and laity knew otherwise) leads me to discount what he he has to say about the subject.  He comes off like many other converts, fiaxted on ritual without pastoral concern.

the implication that only we "crazy" converts are somehow wrong for wanting to follow the Typicon and that we should listen humbly to the cradles who are so much more wise than we is insulting and ridiculous.

[Deacon Lance]

Scamadrius,

I did not you were a convert.  The thrust of that post was Bishop Tikhon proved himself to be unpastoral, obsessed with ritual while his Church was falling down around him, insisting nothing was wrong and ultimately retiring rather than be part of the solution.  Therefore, I don't give much weight to his thoughts on the matter.

However, it is a noted trend that some converts tend fixate on rubrics.  Cradles have their own problems tending to not want to change parish practice even if they no longer work for the majority of the parishioners.

As someone with a great interest in the study of the Liturgy, I must admit I myself can easily fall into rubricism.  The Sabbath was made for the man not man for the Sabbath, Our Lord said.  It is good to keep this in mind when discussing the Liturgy.  The Typicon was written in a different time and place and is heavily influenced by monastic rather than parochial usage.  I am not saying throw out the Typicon but pastoral nees of the people must precede exactitude with the Typicon.  What good are keeping all the services according to exact prescriptions of the Typicon if none of the parishioners can attend them?  e needs the services not God.  Evening Vesperal Liturgies are a pastoral concession to allow more to attend.  While not Vesperal my parish had our Thanksgiving Day Liturgy Wed night rather than Thurs morning for the first time this year.  The result was attendance more than double from a little over 20 to well over 50. 

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Schultz]

Deacon Lance,

But why does it have to be a Divine Liturgy?  What is so inherently wrong with Vespers that it simply must be served with a Divine Liturgy rather than as, say, an All Night Vigil service?  I understand that DL is inherently "greater" because that is where we received the Eucharist, but why can't parishes have an All Night Vigil on the eve of a Feast and then DL the next day?  I often wondered this when I was Catholic and I always chalked it up to the now-ingrained concept in American Catholic culture that a service that's not a Mass isn't worth going to.

[LBK]

Deacon Lance,

But why does it have to be a Divine Liturgy?  What is so inherently wrong with Vespers that it simply must be served with a Divine Liturgy rather than as, say, an All Night Vigil service?  I understand that DL is inherently "greater" because that is where we received the Eucharist, but why can't parishes have an All Night Vigil on the eve of a Feast and then DL the next day?  I often wondered this when I was Catholic and I always chalked it up to the now-ingrained concept in American Catholic culture that a service that's not a Mass isn't worth going to.

Hear hear, Schultz! Without in any way wishing to belittle the importance of the DL, I've learned far more, and benefitted immensely, from attending evening Vigils, even if I can't attend the following morning's DL. The DL is indeed the culmination and fulfilment of the liturgical cycle, but the Vigils are our great and all-too-often unknown theological and doctrinal treasures.

[scamandrius]

As someone with a great interest in the study of the Liturgy, I must admit I myself can easily fall into rubricism.  The Sabbath was made for the man not man for the Sabbath, Our Lord said.  It is good to keep this in mind when discussing the Liturgy.  The Typicon was written in a different time and place and is heavily influenced by monastic rather than parochial usage.  I am not saying throw out the Typicon but pastoral nees of the people must precede exactitude with the Typicon.  What good are keeping all the services according to exact prescriptions of the Typicon if none of the parishioners can attend them?  e needs the services not God.  Evening Vesperal Liturgies are a pastoral concession to allow more to attend.  While not Vesperal my parish had our Thanksgiving Day Liturgy Wed night rather than Thurs morning for the first time this year.  The result was attendance more than double from a little over 20 to well over 50. 

Father Deacon,

Whether I am a convert or not should not make a difference with the issue.  As far as the pastoral issue goes, why is it that the definition we associate with pastoral is "flexible, not fixed."  A pastor isn't someone who bends over backwards to accommodate someone.  Where will the bending end?  I, frankly, grow tired that the justification for these Vesperal Liturgies has to with pastoral care for the priest's flock; a priest must not also enforce the church's discipline, right otherwise there would be chaos.

You point to the number of people coming to the Vesperal Liturgies.  That is good.  However, from my experience, at a number of parishes, Antiochian and OCA, there has been no significant increase in attendance at the Vesperal Liturgies as opposed to serving the Liturgy the day of the feast.   But even if attendance were through the roof (and it isn't) there are some serious theological and pastoral concerns as well.  One thing that has not been brought up (as far as I know) is that the fasting discipline for an evening Liturgy would be such that very few people should partake of the Eucharist, as is demanded during the presanctified Liturgies of Great Lent.  Granted, those with medical conditions and other hardships should never be compelled to receive the Body of Christ only after inflicting on themselves hurt.

[Deacon Lance]

 One thing that has not been brought up (as far as I know) is that the fasting discipline for an evening Liturgy would be such that very few people should partake of the Eucharist, as is demanded during the presanctified Liturgies of Great Lent.  Granted, those with medical conditions and other hardships should never be compelled to receive the Body of Christ only after inflicting on themselves hurt.

I don't see that as much a problem assuming most jurisdicitions/dioceses require fasting from Noon till Liturgy which is 6-7ish, about the same fast as Sunday, Midnight till 9-10ish. 

[Fr. George]

But even if attendance were through the roof (and it isn't) there are some serious theological and pastoral concerns as well.  

I may agree with "pastoral" and "ecclesiological," but not necessarily "theological."

One thing that has not been brought up (as far as I know) is that the fasting discipline for an evening Liturgy would be such that very few people should partake of the Eucharist, as is demanded during the presanctified Liturgies of Great Lent.  Granted, those with medical conditions and other hardships should never be compelled to receive the Body of Christ only after inflicting on themselves hurt.

This is actually one of my issues with the monastic practice of the morning Presanctified Liturgy.  Vespers & Liturgy are moved to the morning, ruining one of the most beautiful parts of the routine with Presanctified - the greater anticipation that comes with the all-day fast.  In order to keep Liturgies in the morning, we ruin the daily cycle by singing evening hymns in the morning (my only complaint about Holy Week).  

I do not believe that this shifting of services to the morning is what the Church had in mind, either - otherwise, why would Vesperal Liturgies be forbidden on all Saturdays except Great Saturday?  Because you're not supposed to all-food fast on Saturdays!  The communion fast would break this rule.

[LBK]

Fr Alexander Schmemann's book "Great Lent - A Journey to Pascha" has a very good and informative chapter on the whys and wherefores of the Presanctified Liturgy, including when it should be held.

[Fr. George]

Fr Alexander Schmemann's book "Great Lent - A Journey to Pascha" has a very good and informative chapter on the whys and wherefores of the Presanctified Liturgy, including when it should be held.

His opinion on the matter (from that chapter) is very reasonable and pretty logical viz a viz Presanctified Liturgy - and seemingly in line with what I've observed and read elsewhere.  (For those who don't have the book, he ties the issue of time for celebration of the Liturgy to the fast that coincides with that day, arguing that the Liturgy is the completion of that Fast - thus, on weekdays of Lent when the fast is prescribed already, the Liturgy should be in the evening.)

However, I think the principle can be expanded when speaking about other Vesperal Liturgies and feastdays.

[Deacon Lance]

Deacon Lance,

But why does it have to be a Divine Liturgy?  What is so inherently wrong with Vespers that it simply must be served with a Divine Liturgy rather than as, say, an All Night Vigil service?  I understand that DL is inherently "greater" because that is where we received the Eucharist, but why can't parishes have an All Night Vigil on the eve of a Feast and then DL the next day?  I often wondered this when I was Catholic and I always chalked it up to the now-ingrained concept in American Catholic culture that a service that's not a Mass isn't worth going to.

You answered your own question, because it is inherently greater and that is where we receive the Eucharist.  I mean you will always have a few diehards who understand the importance of Vespers/Orthros, but your average parishioner just isn't at that level.  Of course there are sometimes entire parishes where the diehards get concentrated but that is the exception not the norm.  I has always thought that this is a question that is more problematic for Greek Catholics than Orthodox, but from my experince in the Pittsburgh area Vespers is not well attended in any parish I have visited be it Ruthenian Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, OCA or ACROD.  Among the Greeks it isn't any better at Orthros.  The local Greek parish, had Vigil the night before the church was to be consecrated by the Metropolitan.  This was celebrated by the Metropolitan and was during the annual parish festival.  There were hundreds of people at the festival.  Besides the concelebrating priest's wives and cantor's wives I was the only one at Vigil until the artos was distributed, then about 20-30 wandered up from the parish hall for the last 10  minutes or so.  

Fr. Deacon Lance

[LBK]

Fr Alexander Schmemann's book "Great Lent - A Journey to Pascha" has a very good and informative chapter on the whys and wherefores of the Presanctified Liturgy, including when it should be held.

His opinion on the matter (from that chapter) is very reasonable and pretty logical viz a viz Presanctified Liturgy - and seemingly in line with what I've observed and read elsewhere.  (For those who don't have the book, he ties the issue of time for celebration of the Liturgy to the fast that coincides with that day, arguing that the Liturgy is the completion of that Fast - thus, on weekdays of Lent when the fast is prescribed already, the Liturgy should be in the evening.)

However, I think the principle can be expanded when speaking about other Vesperal Liturgies and feastdays.

Fr George, this is why I mentioned Fr Alexander's book. What he writes about the Lenten vesperal liturgies applies just as much to the ad hoc ones.

[scamandrius]

[
You answered your own question, because it is inherently greater and that is where we receive the Eucharist.  I mean you will always have a few diehards who understand the importance of Vespers/Orthros, but your average parishioner just isn't at that level.  Of course there are sometimes entire parishes where the diehards get concentrated but that is the exception not the norm.  I has always thought that this is a question that is more problematic for Greek Catholics than Orthodox, but from my experince in the Pittsburgh area Vespers is not well attended in any parish I have visited be it Ruthenian Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, OCA or ACROD.  Among the Greeks it isn't any better at Orthros.  The local Greek parish, had Vigil the night before the church was to be consecrated by the Metropolitan.  This was celebrated by the Metropolitan and was during the annual parish festival.  There were hundreds of people at the festival.  Besides the concelebrating priest's wives and cantor's wives I was the only one at Vigil until the artos was distributed, then about 20-30 wandered up from the parish hall for the last 10  minutes or so.  

Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr. Deacon,

Why can, or maybe I should say "do", many of a parish only come to a service if the Eucharist is distributed?  I think there is a mentality among many Orthodox which thinks "If there's no Eucharist, I'm not going."  Whatever happened to worship of our Lord at any of the services, wehther Vespers or Orthros, compline or the the non-Eucharistic services of Holy Week?  Why is it everyone will come on Pascha but only half on Great and Holy Friday?

Again, pastoral reasons are fine and dandy but not at the expense of who we are as Orthodox Christians in BOTH our faith and praxis.

[scamandrius]

However, I think the principle can be expanded when speaking about other Vesperal Liturgies and feastdays.

Fr.,

Forgive me for being a grammar snob, but after reading your first paragraph of your post, it leads me to believe that you wanted a "don't" included after your "however" of the second paragraph, which would make more sense since you used that particular adversative.  Am I correct?  Or am I just being snobbish as usual?

[LBK]

You answered your own question, because it is inherently greater and that is where we receive the Eucharist.  I mean you will always have a few diehards who understand the importance of Vespers/Orthros, but your average parishioner just isn't at that level.  

This is a most patronising comment, Fr Lance, both in your implication that the Vigil is a mysterious, arcane entity, inaccessible and incomprehensible to the "average" parishioner, and in characterising regular attendees of Vigils as "diehards".

A few years ago, a layman at my parish took the initiative (with the priest's permission) to compile and print bilingual vigil texts for many of the feasts in booklet form and make them available to anyone who wanted them. People of all generations and backgrounds (humble and educated) were soon saying much the same thing: For the first time I've had the chance to understand what going to this service is all about! It's a matter of education, not coercion.

[Fr. George]

Fr George, this is why I mentioned Fr Alexander's book. What he writes about the Lenten vesperal liturgies applies just as much to the ad hoc ones.

Really, his discussion of timing in the book isn't actually about Presanctified Liturgies per se, but a general discussion of Feasts-Fasting-Liturgy.  However, his point about other times (outside of weekdays in Lent) is that evening Liturgy is for full fast days or very Major feasts, and that minor feasts/commemorations should be celebrated around noon, and Vigil days (& Sundays) should be in the morning.  But my thought is that our definition of what deserves a big build-up can be expanded.  Vesperal Liturgy for St. Nicholas?  He is one of the 3-5 most revered Saints in Christendom.  If his feast doesn't fall on a Sunday or Monday, why not?  I can understand not celebrating Vesperal Liturgy for, say, St. John the Russian, since there isn't as big a build-up.  How about a general allowance, that if a feastday falls on a Thurs or Sat in your parish, that you can do Vesperal Liturgy the evening before (full day of fasting on Wed or Fri)?

[Fr. George]

However, I think the principle can be expanded when speaking about other Vesperal Liturgies and feastdays.

Fr.,

Forgive me for being a grammar snob, but after reading your first paragraph of your post, it leads me to believe that you wanted a "don't" included after your "however" of the second paragraph, which would make more sense since you used that particular adversative.  Am I correct?  Or am I just being snobbish as usual?

Actually, my "however" is in response to something left unsaid by me but implied by the text referred to (Fr. Schmemman's book) - that the timing of Liturgy w/ regards to the feastday & fasting of the day is well prescribed & fairly set in stone.   I didn't realize that I did this (setting up the adversative without stating the actual adversarial position).

[LBK]

Fr George, this is why I mentioned Fr Alexander's book. What he writes about the Lenten vesperal liturgies applies just as much to the ad hoc ones.

Really, his discussion of timing in the book isn't actually about Presanctified Liturgies per se, but a general discussion of Feasts-Fasting-Liturgy.  However, his point about other times (outside of weekdays in Lent) is that evening Liturgy is for full fast days or very Major feasts, and that minor feasts/commemorations should be celebrated around noon, and Vigil days (& Sundays) should be in the morning.  But my thought is that our definition of what deserves a big build-up can be expanded.  Vesperal Liturgy for St. Nicholas?  He is one of the 3-5 most revered Saints in Christendom.  If his feast doesn't fall on a Sunday or Monday, why not?  I can understand not celebrating Vesperal Liturgy for, say, St. John the Russian, since there isn't as big a build-up.  How about a general allowance, that if a feastday falls on a Thurs or Sat in your parish, that you can do Vesperal Liturgy the evening before (full day of fasting on Wed or Fri)?

Interesting you should mention St Nicholas, Father, he is the patron saint of the church I attend, and he is very likely the patron of more Orthodox churches than any other saint in the world. For those whose jurisdictions follow the old calendar, this feast falls on a Saturday this year. Your suggestion for a vesperal liturgy for him sounds plausible, but would be unthinkable in parishes where he is the patron saint. Certainly in the church I have attended these past 13 years, nothing short of a full Vigil on the eve, and a Liturgy the following morning, irrespective of which day the feast falls on, will do.

I know I'm only a layman, and I do not wish seem like I'm telling clergy how to do their job. But having had lifelong experience with both Slavic and Greek "flavors" of Orthodoxy, may I suggest a perhaps more suitable pastoral alternative to a vesperal liturgy when a feast of reasonable rank falls on a weekday: adopt (with episcopal blessing, of course!) the Greek custom of transferring the celebration of a major feast from a weekday to the following Sunday, with a Vigil on the Saturday evening. I know that this is also permissible in Slavic tradition, particularly for patronal feasts. That way, the liturgical riches of Matins are still available, and people can still commune on the Sunday.

[Deacon Lance]

You answered your own question, because it is inherently greater and that is where we receive the Eucharist.  I mean you will always have a few diehards who understand the importance of Vespers/Orthros, but your average parishioner just isn't at that level.  

This is a most patronising comment, Fr Lance, both in your implication that the Vigil is a mysterious, arcane entity, inaccessible and incomprehensible to the "average" parishioner, and in characterising regular attendees of Vigils as "diehards".

A few years ago, a layman at my parish took the initiative (with the priest's permission) to compile and print bilingual vigil texts for many of the feasts in booklet form and make them available to anyone who wanted them. People of all generations and backgrounds (humble and educated) were soon saying much the same thing: For the first time I've had the chance to understand what going to this service is all about! It's a matter of education, not coercion.

LBK,

It wasn't meant as an insult.  Simply a statement, one that I think is generally true.  Every parish has a small group who is very devout and will come to every and any service.  The majority of parishioners do not come.  And I am not refering to services in Greek or Slavonic, most Churches around here have all English services.  You can educate all you want my Church has been doing it for several years now, most people aren't coming to Church more than once a week.  If you can get more than the few who come anyways by having Evening Vesperal Liturgy I am all for it.  Of course as a deacon I have no say in the matter.  Transfering a Feast to Sunday is also a reasonable solution.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Fr. George]

Interesting you should mention St Nicholas, Father, he is the patron saint of the church I attend, and he is very likely the patron of more Orthodox churches than any other saint in the world. For those whose jurisdictions follow the old calendar, this feast falls on a Saturday this year. Your suggestion for a vesperal liturgy for him sounds plausible, but would be unthinkable in parishes where he is the patron saint. Certainly in the church I have attended these past 13 years, nothing short of a full Vigil on the eve, and a Liturgy the following morning, irrespective of which day the feast falls on, will do.  

Maybe St. Nicholas is a bad example - but St. Demetrios, St. George, Prophet Elias, St. Panteleimon, St. Haralambos, St. John Chrysostom, St. John the Apostle, Evangelist, and Theologian are likely better examples.  Highly revered, but if their feastday falls on a weekday, then likely attendance will suffer because of work.

Of course, maybe the true answer lies in the most ancient of Christian practices: prayer before work, prayer after work.  But what priest & cantor want to start early enough to finish Liturgy before 8am?

I know I'm only a layman, and I do not wish seem like I'm telling clergy how to do their job.

When respectful, the opinion is respected, IMO.  Like now!

But having had lifelong experience with both Slavic and Greek "flavors" of Orthodoxy, may I suggest a perhaps more suitable pastoral alternative to a vesperal liturgy when a feast of reasonable rank falls on a weekday: adopt (with episcopal blessing, of course!) the Greek custom of transferring the celebration of a major feast from a weekday to the following Sunday, with a Vigil on the Saturday evening. I know that this is also permissible in Slavic tradition, particularly for patronal feasts. That way, the liturgical riches of Matins are still available, and people can still commune on the Sunday.

Eh, in Greek practice (that I've seen & experienced) feast transferring is rare and I believe should remain quite rare (Annunciation {Holy Friday/Saturday to Pascha}, St. George {April 23 to Bright Monday}, and a few others like St. Nicholas Planas {weekday to Saturday} and Sts. Nicholas, Raphael and Irene {? to Bright Wednesday} come to mind, but all their transfers are because of Great Lent-en considerations).

[Basil 320]

TO REPLY #34

I cannot understand why discretion and flexibility should equate to throwing out the Typicon.  This attitude is a phenomenon in today's society in many aspects, work rules, laws etc.  God has given us a brain to think with and and intellect with which to discern.  The exercise of Economy is an example of the Church's appreciation for clerical discernment. Otherwise, computers could make all decisions for society. We can make exceptions for particular reasons, such as accommodating the schedules of the faithful, and continue to adhere to whatever rule, such as the Typicon. I've advocated for some level of use of the Vesperal Liturgies, which, I don't not have a strong opinion about, but I am not criticising the Typicon in general.

[LBK]

Fr Lance

The layman who has taken the initiative I described is, in fact, not of the ethnic ancestry of the parish in which this has been done. Yet an effort was made by this person to learn at least enough of the liturgical language in both spoken and written form to get by, acquire the liturgical texts, and learn enough rubrics to compile the service booklets. Quite an achievement, I must say, and one which "shamed" many in the parish community.

Fr George

Where I come from, the Greek transfer of higher-ranking (non-patronal) feasts from a weekday to the following Sunday is quite common. The feasts you mentioned are in this group, but, in my experience of Greek practice, a number of feasts outside of lenten periods were similarly transferred. In my Slavic experience, one of the few non-patronal feasts I have come across which is commonly transferred is that of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco, in churches of the ROCOR jurisdiction, perhaps because of the justifiably immense devotion of Russians to this saint.

[Fr. George]

Where I come from, the Greek transfer of higher-ranking (non-patronal) feasts from a weekday to the following Sunday is quite common. The feasts you mentioned are in this group, but, in my experience of Greek practice, a number of feasts outside of lenten periods were similarly transferred. In my Slavic experience, one of the few non-patronal feasts I have come across which is commonly transferred is that of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco, in churches of the ROCOR jurisdiction, perhaps because of the justifiably immense devotion of Russians to this saint.

Interesting.  I'd probably prefer, if the options were between moving the feast or doing a Vesperal Liturgy, the latter, depending on the feast.

[LBK]

Where I come from, the Greek transfer of higher-ranking (non-patronal) feasts from a weekday to the following Sunday is quite common. The feasts you mentioned are in this group, but, in my experience of Greek practice, a number of feasts outside of lenten periods were similarly transferred. In my Slavic experience, one of the few non-patronal feasts I have come across which is commonly transferred is that of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco, in churches of the ROCOR jurisdiction, perhaps because of the justifiably immense devotion of Russians to this saint.

Interesting.  I'd probably prefer, if the options were between moving the feast or doing a Vesperal Liturgy, the latter, depending on the feast.

... with the blessing of your bishop, of course ... 

[Fr. George]

... with the blessing of your bishop, of course ... 

Actually, as the 2nd priest, I can't even talk to my Bishop about official stuff without permission of the Proistamenos.

[LBK]

Fair enough. As I said, I don't want to come across as telling you how to do your job.   

[ilyazhito]

tonight, I went to church expecting to sing the Vespers service to St. Barbara and St. John Damascene and instead it was the Vesperal Liturgy.  So, not only was I cheated out of the entire second part of Vespers, but also the whole of Orthros and the beginning of the Divine Liturgy. I don't know whose bright idea this whole thing was, but I say it shouldn't be used.  I know I'm probably in the minority on this, but I'm really frustrated with their existence.

+1! Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco would agree with you. (He abolished Vesperal Liturgy in the DOW, except for where it was needed). I agree!

[serb1389]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

[Deacon Lance]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

[serb1389]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

1. My understanding is that they are 2 different liturgies on 2 different days. No Christmas Eve liturgy is for the 24th & Christmas Day liturgy is for 25th

2.  If they are BOTH for the same day, how did that happen? Out of economy? Because you can't have 2 liturgies on the same day unless you have 2 altars & 2 priests

[Basil 320]

As to Vesperal Liturgies conducted on Christmas Eve, I think item 1 above is correct.  The Liturgy is that of December 24th, but I'm not sure about the Vespers, though I think it's of the 24th too.

[Dominika]

As to Vesperal Liturgies conducted on Christmas Eve, I think item 1 above is correct.  The Liturgy is that of December 24th, but I'm not sure about the Vespers, though I think it's of the 24th too.

I think so. Similar situation is with the feast of the Martyrs of Sebaste: in my parish there was the Liturgy of Presantificated Gifts (so done with Vespers) in the evening of the 9th of March, so when They're commemorated. The same happen during Holy Week, but it's a special case for Vesperal Liturgies.

Also in the eve of Theophany the Liturgy is for the 5th of January. After the Vesperal Liturgy (at least in my parish) the icon of the Theopany is solemnly brought into the centre of the church during singing the festal troparion.

For this moment I remember only one Vesperal Liturgy for the e\next day: it's Liturgy of Presantificated Gifts of the first Friday of the Great Lent, which treats about st. Theodor the Tyron. However, in my parish it was in the morning, so for me it was a Friday's Liturgy and on the next day I was again on the Liturgy, but of st. John Chrysostom

[Deacon Lance]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

1. My understanding is that they are 2 different liturgies on 2 different days. No Christmas Eve liturgy is for the 24th & Christmas Day liturgy is for 25th

2.  If they are BOTH for the same day, how did that happen? Out of economy? Because you can't have 2 liturgies on the same day unless you have 2 altars & 2 priests

Can't be.  Christmas Eve is a Fast day.  Any way you slice it on Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha two Liturgies are served on the same Liturgical day on one altar by one priest less than 24 hours apart.  These three Feasts supercede the rule.

[serb1389]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

1. My understanding is that they are 2 different liturgies on 2 different days. No Christmas Eve liturgy is for the 24th & Christmas Day liturgy is for 25th

2.  If they are BOTH for the same day, how did that happen? Out of economy? Because you can't have 2 liturgies on the same day unless you have 2 altars & 2 priests

Can't be.  Christmas Eve is a Fast day.  Any way you slice it on Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha two Liturgies are served on the same Liturgical day on one altar by one priest less than 24 hours apart.  These three Feasts supercede the rule.

Do you know how that happened?  I really thought that they are their own liturgies, just like on Holy Saturday

[Deacon Lance]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

1. My understanding is that they are 2 different liturgies on 2 different days. No Christmas Eve liturgy is for the 24th & Christmas Day liturgy is for 25th

2.  If they are BOTH for the same day, how did that happen? Out of economy? Because you can't have 2 liturgies on the same day unless you have 2 altars & 2 priests

Can't be.  Christmas Eve is a Fast day.  Any way you slice it on Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha two Liturgies are served on the same Liturgical day on one altar by one priest less than 24 hours apart.  These three Feasts supercede the rule.

Do you know how that happened?  I really thought that they are their own liturgies, just like on Holy Saturday

I don't.  The exception that proves the rule?  But even Holy Saturday isn't its own liturgy.  What is happening on Pascha is we celebrate the old Cathedral Rite Paschal Liturgy on Holy Saturday and the normal Sabbaite Paschal Liturgy on Pascha Sunday.  We perceive the Vesperal Liturgy to be non-Paschal because it lacks features we associate with Pascha like "Christ is Risen" but this tropar was simply not part of the Cathedral Rite in Hagia Sophia.

[serb1389]

A slight resurrection & tweak on the subject

So the vespers part is for the next day (the hymns, etc) but the LITURGY is for THAT day. 

1.  How so we merge the Jewish with the roman calendar here? I mean...how does that happen/work?
2.  When you say the dismissal for liturgy which saints do you celebrate?  You would think the day of, b/c that is what you are ending, but 1 hour prior you did vespers for the NEXT DAY!

Anyone else see the confusion!?

The Vespers and Liturgy are for the Feast being celebrated so everything is for the next day so to speak.

1. My understanding is that they are 2 different liturgies on 2 different days. No Christmas Eve liturgy is for the 24th & Christmas Day liturgy is for 25th

2.  If they are BOTH for the same day, how did that happen? Out of economy? Because you can't have 2 liturgies on the same day unless you have 2 altars & 2 priests

Can't be.  Christmas Eve is a Fast day.  Any way you slice it on Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha two Liturgies are served on the same Liturgical day on one altar by one priest less than 24 hours apart.  These three Feasts supercede the rule.

Do you know how that happened?  I really thought that they are their own liturgies, just like on Holy Saturday

I don't.  The exception that proves the rule?  But even Holy Saturday isn't its own liturgy.  What is happening on Pascha is we celebrate the old Cathedral Rite Paschal Liturgy on Holy Saturday and the normal Sabbaite Paschal Liturgy on Pascha Sunday.  We perceive the Vesperal Liturgy to be non-Paschal because it lacks features we associate with Pascha like "Christ is Risen" but this tropar was simply not part of the Cathedral Rite in Hagia Sophia.

I see your point.  Could this be said for Christmas & epiphany as well?

[genesisone]

I don't.  The exception that proves the rule?  But even Holy Saturday isn't its own liturgy.  What is happening on Pascha is we celebrate the old Cathedral Rite Paschal Liturgy on Holy Saturday and the normal Sabbaite Paschal Liturgy on Pascha Sunday.  We perceive the Vesperal Liturgy to be non-Paschal because it lacks features we associate with Pascha like "Christ is Risen" but this tropar was simply not part of the Cathedral Rite in Hagia Sophia.

I see your point.  Could this be said for Christmas & epiphany as well?

I am by no means an expert on these things. However, I might speculate that since Theophany is liturgically very rich, that its set of services was patterned after Pascha. It is my understanding that Christmas is a somewhat later development in liturgical history and was patterned after Theophany, which at one time included commemoration of the Nativity.

Now, moving back to the general idea of Versperal Liturgies: during Advent this year, we have planned a service every Wednesday beginning November 14, alternating between the Advent Paraklesis and three VDLs, namely Entrance of the Theotokos (which we know we're celebrating a day late, but felt the consistency of Wednesday services was important; then in December for St Nicholas and for St Ignatius (our parish patron).

As was said years ago in this thread, it's unfortunate that we are getting just bits of two services. I know the argument can be made that at least we're remembering the feasts, and doing what we can to encourage attendance. However, I feel that we really aren't doing justice to the Feasts - there's little content concerning the point of the Feast in the portions that make up the VDL. It would, IMO, be better to have a Vespers service (with few if any abbreviations), making that a major event in itself. I also think that we need - and I'm speaking of people in my own parish - to get our congregations out of the "the only important service is the DL" mindset. So it is my position that these VDLs are really a disservice to our people.

Because of our limited parish resources, it's practical for us to have only one service at Christmas. Once again (last year's Sunday Dec 25 made an exception), our priest has announced that it will be the VDL with St Basil's Liturgy. I'm disappointed about that decision. I think we'll have had our fill of VDLs in the previous weeks for one thing. Then, this service is the least joyous of the Christmas services. It is not one to which I would invite family (all non-Orthodox) or friends, but I would invite them to join me for Orthros + DL of St John C - especially if it were at midnight. That hour would create interest in itself, and is certainly not unusual in this community due to the high number of RCs who do celebrate Midnight Mass at Christmas. I really had my heart set on attending a Christmas Eve service at a church of one of my family members. I'm thinking I'm going to go ahead and do that anyway. My priest won't be happy about that - I generally anchor the chanters - but I am annoyed that he made that announcement with no consultation of the congregation. I know there are others who, like me, have family obligations that we like to attend to just once a year, so I am concerned about the attendance in any case.

[Dominika]

Now, moving back to the general idea of Versperal Liturgies: during Advent this year, we have planned a service every Wednesday beginning November 14, alternating between the Advent Paraklesis and three VDLs, namely Entrance of the Theotokos (which we know we're celebrating a day late, but felt the consistency of Wednesday services was important; then in December for St Nicholas and for St Ignatius (our parish patron).

That's good that your parish is celebrating some special services during Advent. Not so many parish organzie something special (at least in Poland). And it's very important fast and it would be good thath in this special time people spend more time in church and on shopping

Because of our limited parish resources, it's practical for us to have only one service at Christmas. Once again (last year's Sunday Dec 25 made an exception), our priest has announced that it will be the VDL with St Basil's Liturgy. I'm disappointed about that decision. I think we'll have had our fill of VDLs in the previous weeks for one thing. Then, this service is the least joyous of the Christmas services. It is not one to which I would invite family (all non-Orthodox) or friends, but I would invite them to join me for Orthros + DL of St John C - especially if it were at midnight. That hour would create interest in itself, and is certainly not unusual in this community due to the high number of RCs who do celebrate Midnight Mass at Christmas. I really had my heart set on attending a Christmas Eve service at a church of one of my family members. I'm thinking I'm going to go ahead and do that anyway. My priest won't be happy about that - I generally anchor the chanters - but I am annoyed that he made that announcement with no consultation of the congregation. I know there are others who, like me, have family obligations that we like to attend to just once a year, so I am concerned about the attendance in any case.

It's a bit shocking and as you said, it's not good that the priest hadn't consulted it with the parishoners. I think it's not appropraite, e.g so beautiful Canon of the Nativity is sung in the enitiry during the Orthros. Only the katavasias can be chanted during the Vesperal Liturgy of st. Basil. Great Compline + Matins + Divine Liturgy of st. John Chrystosom for the Nativity celebrated at midnight are one of the most beautiful services. It's a big waste for the congregation...

[choy]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

[Dominika]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

[choy]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I can only speak for myself, but this is hard even for me.  I guess it depends where the church is.  If the church is in downtown, it is doable.  The church I am looking to go to is about 15kms east of where I live.  I work 25kms west, they are in completely different directions.  Plus I have small children who I still have to wake up, dress up, get ready, and bring to daycare in the morning.  If Vesperal Liturgy is at 7pm, I have enough time to leave work, pick-up from daycare, then go to church.  Probably have some snacks for the kids.

One of the things I appreciated as a Catholic is the easy access to Liturgy.

[Alveus Lacuna]

What about a full Vespers, Matins and then the liturgy all on the eve of the feast? Nobody misses any of the cycle, but most can come. And heck, the "liturgy only" crowd can just show up later in the evening and skip Vespers and Matins. What say ye?

[Punch]

What about a full Vespers, Matins and then the liturgy all on the eve of the feast? Nobody misses any of the cycle, but most can come. And heck, the "liturgy only" crowd can just show up later in the evening and skip Vespers and Matins. What say ye?

No

[Shanghaiski]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I wish we did that.

I also wish we did at least a couple morning presanctified liturgies in Lent.

[Shanghaiski]

What about a full Vespers, Matins and then the liturgy all on the eve of the feast? Nobody misses any of the cycle, but most can come. And heck, the "liturgy only" crowd can just show up later in the evening and skip Vespers and Matins. What say ye?

No

That would be the Greek way, agripnia, yes?

[ialmisry]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I'm not a morning person, and, given rush hour traffic in Chicago, it wouldn't matter even if I were.  The Typikon was made for man, not man for the Typikon, and I've yet to see the explanation for the cosmos coming to a grinding halt by celebrating Vesperal DL other than on the days that the Pharisees celebrate them.

[ialmisry]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I wish we did that.

I also wish we did at least a couple morning presanctified liturgies in Lent.

Now THAT I have a problem with.

[Shanghaiski]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I wish we did that.

I also wish we did at least a couple morning presanctified liturgies in Lent.

Now THAT I have a problem with.

LOL. What was that you were just saying about not celebrating the Typicon with the Pharisees?

[ialmisry]

Unfortunately the signs of the times dictate that we must adopt Vesperal Liturgies.  People don't always have good access to their parish on a regular work day.  It could be out of the way, or the time for Liturgy could mean they can't concievably go to church and to work in a feasible manner.  Not every Great Feast or important Feast is a national holiday, especially in North America.  So we have to find a way that people can still continue the tradition, but in light of the current reality we face.

Actually, I think thaht better option are very early Liturgies (5, 6 or 7 AM) I know some parishes in Poland, Serbia and probaly other countries do so. No problem with Eucharist fasting and no question if it's cannonical or not. And in the evening before Vespers or All-niGht Vigil celebrated on 6, 7 PM...

I wish we did that.

I also wish we did at least a couple morning presanctified liturgies in Lent.

Now THAT I have a problem with.

LOL. What was that you were just saying about not celebrating the Typicon with the Pharisees?

I said I have a problem with it. I didn't say I'd make a problem over it.

I can't imagine a problem that would necessitate having them AM instead of PM, but they had to, they'd have to.

[genesisone]

What about a full Vespers, Matins and then the liturgy all on the eve of the feast? Nobody misses any of the cycle, but most can come. And heck, the "liturgy only" crowd can just show up later in the evening and skip Vespers and Matins. What say ye?

Certainly a marathon especially for parishes that are short on clergy, altar servers, and singers (chanters and/or choir). But it might be well worth the effort. I'd be willing to explore it. My priest - in his early 70s - would claim lack of stamina for all of that. But I'd be willing to go with a reader's Vespers and even Orthros and have the priest begin to lead at the DL. Reader's services would also be briefer - the hymns and readings would be there for the most part, but with many of the prayers reduced to "Lord have mercy" (x 12 or 40) - but even many of those are eventually repeated in the DL. OK - I think I've talked myself into it  !

[ilyazhito]

author=FrGeorge

Maybe St. Nicholas is a bad example - but St. Demetrios, St. George, Prophet Elias, St. Panteleimon, St. Haralambos, St. John Chrysostom, St. John the Apostle, Evangelist, and Theologian are likely better examples.  Highly revered, but if their feastday falls on a weekday, then likely attendance will suffer because of work.

Of course, maybe the true answer lies in the most ancient of Christian practices: prayer before work, prayer after work.  But what priest & cantor want to start early enough to finish Liturgy before 8am?

By the way, that is what St. John the Baptist Cathedral (Washington,DC ROCOR)  does. Their workday liturgies start at 6:40, and end sometime before 9:00. Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco(ROCOR) has daily liturgies at 8:00 every morning, and vigil at 6:00 every evening. Some other churches also have daily liturgy at relatively early hours.

[ialmisry]

author=FrGeorge

Maybe St. Nicholas is a bad example - but St. Demetrios, St. George, Prophet Elias, St. Panteleimon, St. Haralambos, St. John Chrysostom, St. John the Apostle, Evangelist, and Theologian are likely better examples.  Highly revered, but if their feastday falls on a weekday, then likely attendance will suffer because of work.

Of course, maybe the true answer lies in the most ancient of Christian practices: prayer before work, prayer after work.  But what priest & cantor want to start early enough to finish Liturgy before 8am?

By the way, that is what St. John the Baptist Cathedral (Washington,DC ROCOR)  does. Their workday liturgies start at 6:40, and end sometime before 9:00. Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco(ROCOR) has daily liturgies at 8:00 every morning, and vigil at 6:00 every evening. Some other churches also have daily liturgy at relatively early hours.

Curious: how many show up?

[MarkosC]

Sorry to post late to this thread.

To start, the ideal minimum of course is Vespers the day before, then Orthros and Liturgy in the morning of the feast.   If you want to have services outside of weekday working hours, there are a limited number of variants on your options (keep the ideal, do DL only at night, do Vespergy, do Vespers+Orthros as Vigil, do Vigil+Liturgy, do Vigil/Vespers only).

I've seen two options not discussed in this thread:

1. Have Vespers the night before and then Liturgy the evening of (e.g. at 7:00PM Tuesday and 7:00PM Wednesday of a major feast).  A Greek Catholic parish I know does this.   Why is this not commonly done?

2. Have Vespers at a "normal" time (e.g. 6PM) and then have Orthros/Liturgy later that night (8PM and 9PM).   The Church of St. Demetrius in Thessalonica -the only Orthodox parish I'be been to that has regular daily Vespers*, Orthros, and Divine Liturgy and shifts of cantors/priests to fit this schedule - did this for one polyeleos feast in November (and had Orthros/Liturgy again the next day with another shift of cantors/priests!  As an aside, they're good at keeping Orthros and DL to an hour each)

I think all of the options have good points and bad points, and that in the end it's the pastor's decision as to what's best for the sheep of a particular parish.   We must pray that he does so wisely.   

IMO, we're also hampered by a "church is an hour or two on Sunday except for parish events and for extra special traditional feasts" mentality.   I find that the same people who attend Vespers and Orthros are also the same people who come for feast day liturgies.   My experience is that basic mentality is prevalent in both Greek Catholic and Orthodox parishes.  i.e. no one is in church at the hexapsalms, people trickle in during Orthros, but only start really getting in during the Doxology. 

Markos

* another parish in Thessalonica has daily Vespers - right next to the arch of Galerius, I forgot what it's called - with maybe 4-5 regular  attendees.  One night a Greek rap concert was going out at the arch, and not only could you hear the "music" clearly during the litanies but opening the door meant that the service was inaudible until the door was shut again.   

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