Author Topic: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria  (Read 3222 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,020
Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« on: December 01, 2009, 02:18:48 AM »


Since the Chalcedonian schism, have any of the Popes of Alexandria that are part of Eastern (Roman) Orthodoxy been ethnic Copts?  I am just curious if the split was also mostly ethnic, or if there were local Romans and Copts that ended up on opposite sides of the dispute.  Basically, are there many Coptic Christians who are aligned with the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:39:08 AM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,020
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2009, 01:30:45 AM »
?

Offline Andrew21091

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,272
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 05:48:05 PM »
I want to bump this also since I would like to know the answer to this also.

I do also have a related question about the Greek Patriarchate of Alexandria. Are there any monasteries under the Greek Pope in Egypt? The only Eastern Orthodox monastery I know of is St. Catherine's at Sinai.

Offline Father H

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,638
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2009, 05:48:48 PM »
I don't know of any secure data on this, although I am sure there is some, somewhere.  I read somewhere that they were "mostly" Greek for the past 150 years since the last Greek immigration into Alexandria, implying that there were others.  I know that in the early centuries following the departure of the non-chalcedonians that they still shared a common "local" ethnic heritage in Egypt, but that there became an increasing division, even though they were the same "ethnicity" between "Copts" and "Romans" (or "imperialists").   I know that with St. John the Merciful, non-Chalcedonians were reunited to the Alexandrian Patriarchate (Chalcedonian), but then centuries later this fell away once again, in part due to the lack of recognition from politically conquering forces in the region which saught to suppress the chalcedonian patriarchate.  

Offline samkim

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 735
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2009, 05:54:28 PM »


Since the Chalcedonian schism, have any of the Popes of Alexandria that are part of Eastern (Roman) Orthodoxy been ethnic Copts?  I am just curious if the split was also mostly ethnic, or if there were local Romans and Copts that ended up on opposite sides of the dispute.  Basically, are there many Coptic Christians who are aligned with the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate?

Orthodoxy has the best hats.
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,153
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 05:56:37 PM »


Since the Chalcedonian schism, have any of the Popes of Alexandria that are part of Eastern (Roman) Orthodoxy been ethnic Copts?  I am just curious if the split was also mostly ethnic, or if there were local Romans and Copts that ended up on opposite sides of the dispute.  Basically, are there many Coptic Christians who are aligned with the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate?

Orthodoxy has the best hats.
Which "Orthodoxy"?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline samkim

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 735
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2009, 06:07:04 PM »


Since the Chalcedonian schism, have any of the Popes of Alexandria that are part of Eastern (Roman) Orthodoxy been ethnic Copts?  I am just curious if the split was also mostly ethnic, or if there were local Romans and Copts that ended up on opposite sides of the dispute.  Basically, are there many Coptic Christians who are aligned with the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate?

Orthodoxy has the best hats.
Which "Orthodoxy"?

In general.

"Orthodoxy has the best hats." = "mitres are cool"
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 06:08:19 PM by samkim »
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,020
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2009, 03:16:22 PM »
I do also have a related question about the Greek Patriarchate of Alexandria. Are there any monasteries under the Greek Pope in Egypt? The only Eastern Orthodox monastery I know of is St. Catherine's at Sinai.

That's a great question as well!  I wonder if any of our Copts on here would know any of this stuff?

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,668
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2009, 03:50:50 PM »
I do also have a related question about the Greek Patriarchate of Alexandria. Are there any monasteries under the Greek Pope in Egypt? The only Eastern Orthodox monastery I know of is St. Catherine's at Sinai.

That's a great question as well!  I wonder if any of our Copts on here would know any of this stuff?

St. Catherine isn't in the jurisdiciton of Alexandria. It practically is its own jurisdiction, but the Abbot-Archbishop is consecrated in Jerusalem.  It main Metochion in the world is in Cairo.

There is at least one, St. George in old Cairo. Monasticism is not cultivated in Egypt by the Greek hierarchy: it seems that in part guarentees Greek control, as in Jerusalem.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,020
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2009, 04:21:51 PM »
Monasticism is not cultivated in Egypt by the Greek hierarchy: it seems that in part guarentees Greek control, as in Jerusalem.

The more I learn about all of this, the more depressing it gets.

I did a little bit of digging, and it seems that all of these Alexandrian Patriarchs are Greeks from Cyprus, Crete and so on.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 04:22:49 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,668
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 04:41:39 PM »
Monasticism is not cultivated in Egypt by the Greek hierarchy: it seems that in part guarentees Greek control, as in Jerusalem.

The more I learn about all of this, the more depressing it gets.

I did a little bit of digging, and it seems that all of these Alexandrian Patriarchs are Greeks from Cyprus, Crete and so on.

I've haven't been since 1992, but then HH Pope Nicholas had every DL in half Arabic, half Greek, and Pope Parthenius the Church in Cairo was all Arabic.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,210
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2009, 05:03:12 PM »
Monasticism is not cultivated in Egypt by the Greek hierarchy: it seems that in part guarentees Greek control, as in Jerusalem.

The more I learn about all of this, the more depressing it gets.

I did a little bit of digging, and it seems that all of these Alexandrian Patriarchs are Greeks from Cyprus, Crete and so on.

You're being depressed by internet speculation about motive?  I honestly do not believe that there is any conscious desire to keep the church of Alexandria out of "local" control - but if people want to speculate, I'd love to see evidence of it.  As far as I know, one reason why a lot of Greek clergy end up in the church of Alexandria is because - gasp! - Greek priests are encouraged to go out as missionaries, and Apostoliki Diakonia pays for them to take the burden off the local communities who often cannot afford to pay clergy.  How nefarious - missionary priests!  How dare they learn the local language, attempt to spread Orthodoxy, etc.!
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,020
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2009, 05:08:27 PM »
I had not considered anything like that.  You don't have to get totally sarcastic with me about it.  That's why I asked about it publicly.  Often airing questions out in the open helps us to reach some kind of resolution.  You just provided me with another possibility that is much more positive.

However, I know for certain a couple of Constantinople's Patriarchs in the 19th century were moved down to Alexandria after they were removed from office.  That doesn't seem so "generous" to me.  "Here, take our deposed Patriarch!"

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,668
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2009, 05:10:19 PM »
Monasticism is not cultivated in Egypt by the Greek hierarchy: it seems that in part guarentees Greek control, as in Jerusalem.

The more I learn about all of this, the more depressing it gets.

I did a little bit of digging, and it seems that all of these Alexandrian Patriarchs are Greeks from Cyprus, Crete and so on.

You're being depressed by internet speculation about motive?  I honestly do not believe that there is any conscious desire to keep the church of Alexandria out of "local" control - but if people want to speculate, I'd love to see evidence of it.  As far as I know, one reason why a lot of Greek clergy end up in the church of Alexandria is because - gasp! - Greek priests are encouraged to go out as missionaries, and Apostoliki Diakonia pays for them to take the burden off the local communities who often cannot afford to pay clergy.  How nefarious - missionary priests!  How dare they learn the local language, attempt to spread Orthodoxy, etc.!

We do have native clergy in Egypt.  Besides the Greeks.

The Copts have plenty of monastaries in Egypt.  We could manage a couple.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,210
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2009, 05:19:12 PM »
I had not considered anything like that.  You don't have to get totally sarcastic with me about it.  That's why I asked about it publicly.  Often airing questions out in the open helps us to reach some kind of resolution.  You just provided me with another possibility that is much more positive.

However, I know for certain a couple of Constantinople's Patriarchs in the 19th century were moved down to Alexandria after they were removed from office.  That doesn't seem so "generous" to me.  "Here, take our deposed Patriarch!"

Not all depositions are for just cause, and certainly wrongfully deposed hierarchs can do a lot of good.  Exhibit A: St. Nektarios, deposed bishop of Pentapolis (Patriarchate of Alexandria)
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,210
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2009, 05:24:13 PM »
Monasticism is not cultivated in Egypt by the Greek hierarchy: it seems that in part guarentees Greek control, as in Jerusalem.

The more I learn about all of this, the more depressing it gets.

I did a little bit of digging, and it seems that all of these Alexandrian Patriarchs are Greeks from Cyprus, Crete and so on.

You're being depressed by internet speculation about motive?  I honestly do not believe that there is any conscious desire to keep the church of Alexandria out of "local" control - but if people want to speculate, I'd love to see evidence of it.  As far as I know, one reason why a lot of Greek clergy end up in the church of Alexandria is because - gasp! - Greek priests are encouraged to go out as missionaries, and Apostoliki Diakonia pays for them to take the burden off the local communities who often cannot afford to pay clergy.  How nefarious - missionary priests!  How dare they learn the local language, attempt to spread Orthodoxy, etc.!

We do have native clergy in Egypt.  Besides the Greeks.

The Copts have plenty of monastaries in Egypt.  We could manage a couple.

Missionaries aren't just needed where there are no clergy.  There are millions of people in Africa who aren't Orthodox - it's not that there isn't a good job being done, just that there is so much work to do.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,547
  • Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
Re: Eastern Orthodox Papacy of Alexandria
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2009, 03:32:55 AM »
Monasticism is not cultivated in Egypt by the Greek hierarchy: it seems that in part guarentees Greek control, as in Jerusalem.

The more I learn about all of this, the more depressing it gets.

I did a little bit of digging, and it seems that all of these Alexandrian Patriarchs are Greeks from Cyprus, Crete and so on.

You're being depressed by internet speculation about motive?  I honestly do not believe that there is any conscious desire to keep the church of Alexandria out of "local" control - but if people want to speculate, I'd love to see evidence of it.  As far as I know, one reason why a lot of Greek clergy end up in the church of Alexandria is because - gasp! - Greek priests are encouraged to go out as missionaries, and Apostoliki Diakonia pays for them to take the burden off the local communities who often cannot afford to pay clergy.  How nefarious - missionary priests!  How dare they learn the local language, attempt to spread Orthodoxy, etc.!

We do have native clergy in Egypt.  Besides the Greeks.

The Copts have plenty of monastaries in Egypt.  We could manage a couple.

There could also be Egyptianized Greeks as well.  My father was good friends with one in his childhood, until he had to move back to Greece, but Egyptian encultured with the Egyptian accent and Egyptian pride and everything.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.