Author Topic: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?  (Read 31183 times)

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Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2009, 03:22:55 AM »
I'll be your huckleberry.  :-*  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews or b) he was talking about something that's not easily accepted in today's PC world.
Neither. He is talking about "Judaizers".

He's talking to the Judaizers, telling them they're 'dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?', ABOUT the Jews he says it has been "clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews"

I read through the Homily...don't quite see the clear proof, but maybe it's just me? Several others throughout history didn't have any problem accepting the argument.
But GiC, Our Father among the Saints John Chrysostom would say the same of you- that you are cavorting with demons, and the proof is that you deny Christ. I don't say this to hurt you, but to try and get you to see things from his point of view. Anyone who rejects Christ and the Gospel would have been understood as under the influence of demons.

Don't worry George it takes a bit more than saying I'm posessed by imaginary creatures to hurt my feelings. ;) Yes, I'm sure Chrysostom would have thought of me, both an apostate and an atheist (the latter nearly unheard of in his day), worse than the Jews...probably as the epitome of evil, maybe Lucifer himself! ;D

But my original point was that he both was an anti-semite and propagated a tradition of anti-semitism, which I think has been demonstrated.

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2009, 03:27:01 AM »
Quote
Yes, I'm sure Chrysostom would have thought of me, both an apostate and an atheist (the latter nearly unheard of in his day), worse than the Jews

Interestingly, people like St. Gregory the Theologian called Jews "atheists" back in the day, which I think makes even less sense than the Romans calling Christians atheists, but anyway...

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2009, 03:43:59 AM »
But my original point was that he both was an anti-semite and propagated a tradition of anti-semitism, which I think has been demonstrated.
I don't think it has. But anywho.......
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2009, 04:30:18 AM »
Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?

Some are anti-Semitic, some are homophobic, some are both, most (hopefully) are niether.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline Tallitot

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2009, 04:35:57 AM »
Except Judaism doesn't teach that.

What does Judaism teach about Teresa of Calcutta?

About her specifically? Nothing.

Judaism teaches that all will be judged fairly by G-D; we do not believe that one has to be Jewish to attain everlasting life.

Proverbs 22:7

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2009, 05:11:37 AM »
Except Judaism doesn't teach that.

What does Judaism teach about Teresa of Calcutta?
What does Mother Teresa have to do with this discussion outside of an apparent attempt to inflame Tallitot unnecessarily?  To his credit, Tallitot has not responded as you might have expected he would.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 05:13:43 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2009, 10:45:22 AM »
But Chrysostom does share responsibility for being a father of modern anti-semitism in the western world.

Would you consider yourself to be "pro-Jewish" by any stretch of the imagination?  I would assume that you are just as critical of their strange rituals and fanatical beliefs as of any other religious group.  Certainly their ethno-centrism must be repugnant to you, with them being the apple of their God's eye; the center of the universe.
Except Judaism doesn't teach that.
btw when I brought up the issue of homophobia and anti-semitism on the original thread, i refering to a specific poster, not all Christians.

As you have indicated an affiliation with a conservative congregation, do you not say the following every morning?

Quote
Baruch atah Hashem Elokenu melech haolam, shelo asani goy

Translated, that reads "Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the universe, who did not make me a Gentile."

Note, I'm asking this honestly and not as a bait.  It seems to me that the conservative and orthodox Jews I know (which are more than a handful) certainly believe they are the apple of God's eye.  Lex orandi, lex credendi and all that.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2009, 10:57:34 AM »

As you have indicated an affiliation with a conservative congregation, do you not say the following every morning?

Quote
Baruch atah Hashem Elokenu melech haolam, shelo asani goy

Translated, that reads "Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the universe, who did not make me a Gentile."

Note, I'm asking this honestly and not as a bait.  It seems to me that the conservative and orthodox Jews I know (which are more than a handful) certainly believe they are the apple of God's eye.  Lex orandi, lex credendi and all that.

I pray: "Blessed art thou O Lord our God, King of the universe, who didst make me a Gentile" as I bite down on my bacon egg and cheese bagel a couple of times each week on the way to work...  8)
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2009, 11:13:28 AM »

As you have indicated an affiliation with a conservative congregation, do you not say the following every morning?

Quote
Baruch atah Hashem Elokenu melech haolam, shelo asani goy

Translated, that reads "Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the universe, who did not make me a Gentile."

Note, I'm asking this honestly and not as a bait.  It seems to me that the conservative and orthodox Jews I know (which are more than a handful) certainly believe they are the apple of God's eye.  Lex orandi, lex credendi and all that.

I pray: "Blessed art thou O Lord our God, King of the universe, who didst make me a Gentile" as I bite down on my bacon egg and cheese bagel a couple of times each week on the way to work...  8)

Oddly enough, I first learned of this prayer while I was eating a bacon double cheeseburger.

True story. :)
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Offline GammaRay

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2009, 12:19:26 PM »
What does anti-Semetic and homophonbic mean? ???
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2009, 12:23:40 PM »
I think it's worth pointing out that Hitler's seemingly pro-Christian comments were in the context of speeches and books, while his anti-Christian comments were in his diary. He was a great politician and used the rhetoric of the people to get what he needed. It would seem that his true feelings were strongly anti-Christian. He was just playing the game.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2009, 12:41:20 PM »
I think it's worth pointing out that Hitler's seemingly pro-Christian comments were in the context of speeches and books, while his anti-Christian comments were in his diary. He was a great politician and used the rhetoric of the people to get what he needed. It would seem that his true feelings were strongly anti-Christian. He was just playing the game.

And this is a point which I'm sure GiC knows - but won't admit to it, as he is using Hitler's comments to attempt to publicly discredit St. John Chrysostom (whom he knows to be a foundational thinker for Christianity) and thus attempting to take both a rhetorical and moral high ground.  I didn't take the bait - I don't know why so many others have.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2009, 12:59:14 PM »
I have a mathematical proof that not ALL Christians are anti-Semitic and homophobic.

I am a Christian, and I am neither anti-Semitic nor homophobic!

Now, where's my prize?  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2009, 01:03:36 PM »
I think it's worth pointing out that Hitler's seemingly pro-Christian comments were in the context of speeches and books, while his anti-Christian comments were in his diary. He was a great politician and used the rhetoric of the people to get what he needed. It would seem that his true feelings were strongly anti-Christian. He was just playing the game.

And this is a point which I'm sure GiC knows - but won't admit to it, as he is using Hitler's comments to attempt to publicly discredit St. John Chrysostom (whom he knows to be a foundational thinker for Christianity) and thus attempting to take both a rhetorical and moral high ground.  I didn't take the bait - I don't know why so many others have.

Actually, if that was my goal I would have used Luther, where I could clearly trace his ideological roots back to Chrysostom with little effort, and was just as despicable as Hitler in his application of these views, if only on a smaller scale. But Hitler was brought up in the conversation and it just kinda moved in that direction...he works, but Luther is easier.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2009, 01:04:32 PM »
I have a mathematical proof that not ALL Christians are anti-Semitic and homophobic.

I am a Christian, and I am neither anti-Semitic nor homophobic!

Now, where's my prize?  ;D ;D ;D

Who ever said it was a theorem...I was suggesting it was an axiom. Now apply your logic. ;) ;D

Offline Papist

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2009, 01:07:25 PM »

I am a free sentient being, free to thing as I will, free to believe as I will, free from the despotism of the mind...I can think of nothing greater.

You believe in free will?
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Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2009, 01:08:15 PM »
I think it's worth pointing out that Hitler's seemingly pro-Christian comments were in the context of speeches and books, while his anti-Christian comments were in his diary. He was a great politician and used the rhetoric of the people to get what he needed. It would seem that his true feelings were strongly anti-Christian. He was just playing the game.

And this is a point which I'm sure GiC knows - but won't admit to it, as he is using Hitler's comments to attempt to publicly discredit St. John Chrysostom (whom he knows to be a foundational thinker for Christianity) and thus attempting to take both a rhetorical and moral high ground.  I didn't take the bait - I don't know why so many others have.

To be honest, I don't know why they have either, especially after my initial comment:

Oh...that's no fun, I really wanted someone to defend the line: 'the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews'. Gods know I've done it in the past. ;)

Oh well, it was worth a try. ;D

But I am going to take credit for calling it:

Quote
Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. :)

LOL ;)

Offline Papist

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2009, 01:10:25 PM »


What an impoverished view of Mathematics you have, a lack of understand and appreciation for the theorems and proofs of theoretical mathematics is a most sad and unfortunate thing.

I love mathematics. One of the most elegant things in the universe. Of course one could argue that it has no real existence but only mental existence  ;)  . Just curious, I majored in Mathematics in college and I had professors with varying views and philosophies of mathematics all the way from an almost platonic view (the perfect ideal equilater triangle exists "somewhere") to the more critial view that mathematics has not bearing on reality but is only in our minds. Where do you fall?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2009, 01:13:07 PM »
Quote
Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. :)
LOL ;)

You grossly underestimated the number of takers.
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2009, 01:14:48 PM »
Just curious, I majored in Mathematics in college and I had professors with varying views and philosophies of mathematics all the way from an almost platonic view (the perfect ideal equilater triangle exists "somewhere") to the more critial view that mathematics has not bearing on reality but is only in our minds. Where do you fall?

The best mathematics Profs are (neo-)Pythagoreans.  :laugh:
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Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2009, 01:17:56 PM »

I am a free sentient being, free to thing as I will, free to believe as I will, free from the despotism of the mind...I can think of nothing greater.

You believe in free will?

Partially, a large part of us is programmed by our genetics then heavily influenced by our environment. But the nature of neural computations is that they're analog, thus falling in the domain of fuzzy set theory, there will always be ambiguity in computational decisions and, at times, they will be depending on the allowed weighting factors (which are again chosen via fuzzy set theory)...the application of these weighting factors can be arbitrary or even completely random and as they are not an element of {0,1} but of [0,1], there are uncountably infinite possibilities for each and the complexity of the system allows them to diverge in a chaos theoretic manner, thus free will.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2009, 01:30:42 PM »


What an impoverished view of Mathematics you have, a lack of understand and appreciation for the theorems and proofs of theoretical mathematics is a most sad and unfortunate thing.

I love mathematics. One of the most elegant things in the universe. Of course one could argue that it has no real existence but only mental existence  ;)  . Just curious, I majored in Mathematics in college and I had professors with varying views and philosophies of mathematics all the way from an almost platonic view (the perfect ideal equilater triangle exists "somewhere") to the more critial view that mathematics has not bearing on reality but is only in our minds. Where do you fall?

I always thought the best (poetic) description of Mathematics was 'Mathematics is the part of science you could continue to do if you woke up tomorrow and discovered the universe was gone.' Regardless of the laws of the universe, no matter how chaotic or random, it is still applicable (chaos theory, topology). Regardless of how infinitely more complex a computational system (or intelligence) is than our Turing machine brain, or than anything this universe can produce, mathematics still describes it and it is still dependent on mathematics (Complexity theory). So I guess I'm closer to the platonic view, it's not that mathematics 'exists' in some other realm, to say mathematics 'exists' is a bit meaningless, but it's true and valid in any reality (or lack of reality) and the very foundation of any world, any universe, and any intelligence that we either can or cannot imagine.

Now you can probably see why I list it under my religion tag. ;)

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2009, 01:34:37 PM »
Just curious, I majored in Mathematics in college and I had professors with varying views and philosophies of mathematics all the way from an almost platonic view (the perfect ideal equilater triangle exists "somewhere") to the more critial view that mathematics has not bearing on reality but is only in our minds. Where do you fall?

The best mathematics Profs are (neo-)Pythagoreans.  :laugh:

They're the ones to tend to see and appreciate the poetry in mathematics, it's not mere a means to support the sciences but equally and, perhaps more importantly so, a form of art. The sciences can eat the scraps that fall from the table of mathematics, we should do mathematics for its own sake.

'Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty — a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture, without appeal to any part of our weaker nature, without the gorgeous trappings of painting or music, yet sublimely pure, and capable of a stern perfection such as only the greatest art can show. The true spirit of delight, the exaltation, the sense of being more than Man, which is the touchstone of the highest excellence, is to be found in mathematics as surely as poetry.' - Bertrand Russell

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2009, 01:37:21 PM »
Quote
And this is a point which I'm sure GiC knows - but won't admit to it, as he is using Hitler's comments to attempt to publicly discredit St. John Chrysostom (whom he knows to be a foundational thinker for Christianity) and thus attempting to take both a rhetorical and moral high ground.  I didn't take the bait - I don't know why so many others have.

 ??? St. John Chrysostom was foundational? In what way?

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2009, 01:38:06 PM »
Quote
Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. :)
LOL ;)

You grossly underestimated the number of takers.

I'll certainly give you that one. I expected the standard 'it was acceptable for the day, but it was clearly as wrong then as it is today, but nobody's perfect, not even saints, but a few mistakes in his life don't negate the rest of his teachings' line, but got a bit more than I bargained for...yet it was fun. ;)

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2009, 01:56:15 PM »
What does anti-Semetic and homophonbic mean? ???
Neither of those terms mean anything ;D, but "anti-Semitic" means "biased or prejudiced against the descendants of Shem; that is, the Jewish and Arabic peoples," and "homophobic" means "possessing an irrational fear of homosexuals or homosexuality." I would say not many Christians are actually anti-Semitic or homophobic. One can, after all, pray for the salvation of all who are outside of Orthodoxy while not actually being prejudiced against those outside of Orthodoxy; and one can be against homosexuality without actually being afraid of it. But sometimes the things we say can be misinterpreted.
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Offline Rosehip

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2009, 01:57:14 PM »
I forget the exact source, but I recently ran across someone (a homosexual atheist) who was saying how surprised he was at the amount of homophobia amongst atheists...
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Offline Papist

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2009, 02:10:56 PM »
Just curious, I majored in Mathematics in college and I had professors with varying views and philosophies of mathematics all the way from an almost platonic view (the perfect ideal equilater triangle exists "somewhere") to the more critial view that mathematics has not bearing on reality but is only in our minds. Where do you fall?

The best mathematics Profs are (neo-)Pythagoreans.  :laugh:

They're the ones to tend to see and appreciate the poetry in mathematics, it's not mere a means to support the sciences but equally and, perhaps more importantly so, a form of art. The sciences can eat the scraps that fall from the table of mathematics, we should do mathematics for its own sake.

'Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty — a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture, without appeal to any part of our weaker nature, without the gorgeous trappings of painting or music, yet sublimely pure, and capable of a stern perfection such as only the greatest art can show. The true spirit of delight, the exaltation, the sense of being more than Man, which is the touchstone of the highest excellence, is to be found in mathematics as surely as poetry.' - Bertrand Russell
How do you feel about the paradoxes created in certain fields of mathematics such as in set theory?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:11:06 PM by Papist »
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Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2009, 02:13:14 PM »
But Chrysostom does share responsibility for being a father of modern anti-semitism in the western world.

Would you consider yourself to be "pro-Jewish" by any stretch of the imagination?  I would assume that you are just as critical of their strange rituals and fanatical beliefs as of any other religious group.  Certainly their ethno-centrism must be repugnant to you, with them being the apple of their God's eye; the center of the universe.
Except Judaism doesn't teach that.
btw when I brought up the issue of homophobia and anti-semitism on the original thread, i refering to a specific poster, not all Christians.

As you have indicated an affiliation with a conservative congregation, do you not say the following every morning?

Quote
Baruch atah Hashem Elokenu melech haolam, shelo asani goy

Translated, that reads "Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the universe, who did not make me a Gentile."

Note, I'm asking this honestly and not as a bait.  It seems to me that the conservative and orthodox Jews I know (which are more than a handful) certainly believe they are the apple of God's eye.  Lex orandi, lex credendi and all that.

Oooh Hebrew AND Latin in one post! What? You couldn't throw in Aramaic or Greek? I'm dissapointed Schultz. :P
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2009, 02:27:06 PM »
Quote
And this is a point which I'm sure GiC knows - but won't admit to it, as he is using Hitler's comments to attempt to publicly discredit St. John Chrysostom (whom he knows to be a foundational thinker for Christianity) and thus attempting to take both a rhetorical and moral high ground.  I didn't take the bait - I don't know why so many others have.

 ??? St. John Chrysostom was foundational? In what way? 

Not that he created anything new, but rather our understanding of Christianity and our approach to faith rest greatly upon his interpretations, explanations, and writings.  He's not the foundation, but made himself a part of it through his work.
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Offline Super Apostolic Bros.

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2009, 02:59:24 PM »

Now you can probably see why I list it under my religion tag. ;)
Because there isn't a "fetish" tag.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2009, 03:58:52 PM »

Now you can probably see why I list it under my religion tag. ;)
Because there isn't a "fetish" tag.

There's a difference?

Offline Super Apostolic Bros.

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2009, 04:11:59 PM »

Now you can probably see why I list it under my religion tag. ;)
Because there isn't a "fetish" tag.

There's a difference?
Yes.

Given the postmodern habit of changing the definition of words to fit whatever is necessary, I doubt I'll convince you, though. A fetish is something eliciting unquestioned reverence or devotion. Religion is a set of beliefs governing life, (meta)physics, man's relationship with nature and transendence, origins and ends, etc. While religion may have a fetishistic element, to make a religion of one's fetish is.... well, let's just say that if you, GiC, govern your entire way of life around mathematical proofs, I pity you. Mathematics may tell us how bullets affect a human body, but they don't tell us why shooting human beings is wrong.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2009, 04:38:50 PM »

Now you can probably see why I list it under my religion tag. ;)
Because there isn't a "fetish" tag.

There's a difference?
Yes.

Given the postmodern habit of changing the definition of words to fit whatever is necessary, I doubt I'll convince you, though. A fetish is something eliciting unquestioned reverence or devotion.
Actually, a fetish is something completely different, but let's not go there. :-X
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2009, 04:41:30 PM »
Just curious, I majored in Mathematics in college and I had professors with varying views and philosophies of mathematics all the way from an almost platonic view (the perfect ideal equilater triangle exists "somewhere") to the more critial view that mathematics has not bearing on reality but is only in our minds. Where do you fall?

The best mathematics Profs are (neo-)Pythagoreans.  :laugh:

They're the ones to tend to see and appreciate the poetry in mathematics, it's not mere a means to support the sciences but equally and, perhaps more importantly so, a form of art. The sciences can eat the scraps that fall from the table of mathematics, we should do mathematics for its own sake.

'Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty — a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture, without appeal to any part of our weaker nature, without the gorgeous trappings of painting or music, yet sublimely pure, and capable of a stern perfection such as only the greatest art can show. The true spirit of delight, the exaltation, the sense of being more than Man, which is the touchstone of the highest excellence, is to be found in mathematics as surely as poetry.' - Bertrand Russell
How do you feel about the paradoxes created in certain fields of mathematics such as in set theory?

No, if there's a 'Paradox', it's just a contradiction which means the theory is wrong and it's time to go back to the drawing board. That's how mathematics work, mathematicians don't always get it right on their first try, sometimes it takes centuries. Contradictions were found in Naive Set Theory, so ZFC was presented, but it doesn't include the universal set or proper classes, so it was found to be incomplete, New Foundations Set Theory was then presented, it solves these completeness issues, but has yet to be proven consistent (though it hasn't been disproven either, as no contradictions have been found), much of it has been proven consistent, but not the theory as a whole.

Set theory's a work in process, that we haven't seen the final product of a theory begun in the late 19th century shouldn't surprise us. It took over 2000 years to settle questions about Euclid's fifth postulate. And more rigorous formulations of the theory have expanded the number of axioms required (to 8, I believe, but it's been a while since I've taken geometry). There's no problem with Mathematics, only with our current understanding of the same; just like there's no problem with the laws of physics, just with our understanding of them at the current time.

Offline Papist

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2009, 04:44:55 PM »
Just curious, I majored in Mathematics in college and I had professors with varying views and philosophies of mathematics all the way from an almost platonic view (the perfect ideal equilater triangle exists "somewhere") to the more critial view that mathematics has not bearing on reality but is only in our minds. Where do you fall?

The best mathematics Profs are (neo-)Pythagoreans.  :laugh:

They're the ones to tend to see and appreciate the poetry in mathematics, it's not mere a means to support the sciences but equally and, perhaps more importantly so, a form of art. The sciences can eat the scraps that fall from the table of mathematics, we should do mathematics for its own sake.

'Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty — a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture, without appeal to any part of our weaker nature, without the gorgeous trappings of painting or music, yet sublimely pure, and capable of a stern perfection such as only the greatest art can show. The true spirit of delight, the exaltation, the sense of being more than Man, which is the touchstone of the highest excellence, is to be found in mathematics as surely as poetry.' - Bertrand Russell
How do you feel about the paradoxes created in certain fields of mathematics such as in set theory?

No, if there's a 'Paradox', it's just a contradiction which means the theory is wrong and it's time to go back to the drawing board. That's how mathematics work, mathematicians don't always get it right on their first try, sometimes it takes centuries. Contradictions were found in Naive Set Theory, so ZFC was presented, but it doesn't include the universal set or proper classes, so it was found to be incomplete, New Foundations Set Theory was then presented, it solves these completeness issues, but has yet to be proven consistent (though it hasn't been disproven either, as no contradictions have been found), much of it has been proven consistent, but not the theory as a whole.

Set theory's a work in process, that we haven't seen the final product of a theory begun in the late 19th century shouldn't surprise us. It took over 2000 years to settle questions about Euclid's fifth postulate. And more rigorous formulations of the theory have expanded the number of axioms required (to 8, I believe, but it's been a while since I've taken geometry). There's no problem with Mathematics, only with our current understanding of the same; just like there's no problem with the laws of physics, just with our understanding of them at the current time.
I'd have to agree with you for the most part and I hold how out faith and hope (human, not God granted faith and hope) that these paradoxes in Mathematics will be resolved.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2009, 04:52:37 PM »

Now you can probably see why I list it under my religion tag. ;)
Because there isn't a "fetish" tag.

There's a difference?
Yes.

Given the postmodern habit of changing the definition of words to fit whatever is necessary, I doubt I'll convince you, though. A fetish is something eliciting unquestioned reverence or devotion. Religion is a set of beliefs governing life, (meta)physics, man's relationship with nature and transendence, origins and ends, etc. While religion may have a fetishistic element, to make a religion of one's fetish is.... well, let's just say that if you, GiC, govern your entire way of life around mathematical proofs, I pity you. Mathematics may tell us how bullets affect a human body, but they don't tell us why shooting human beings is wrong.

No, biology and physics tells you that, mathematics tells you that the differential equations used to explain the trajectory of the bullet and the differential equations governing the flow of blood from the body are consistent, that they are complete, about their boundary limitations, about their complexity, and about the existence and smoothness of solutions (we haven't proven that or determined all boundary limitations for the Navier-Stokes Equations yet, but if you can prove (or disprove) it, there's a million dollar prize waiting for you).

So stop trying to make mathematics as trivial and vulgar as you are presenting it, it transcends all those questions, it's beyond the physical world, beyond both right and wrong, but all things happen according to its laws, it is Truth unadulterated by observation, subjectivity, or superstition.

Offline Papist

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2009, 05:01:59 PM »

Now you can probably see why I list it under my religion tag. ;)
Because there isn't a "fetish" tag.

There's a difference?
Yes.

Given the postmodern habit of changing the definition of words to fit whatever is necessary, I doubt I'll convince you, though. A fetish is something eliciting unquestioned reverence or devotion. Religion is a set of beliefs governing life, (meta)physics, man's relationship with nature and transendence, origins and ends, etc. While religion may have a fetishistic element, to make a religion of one's fetish is.... well, let's just say that if you, GiC, govern your entire way of life around mathematical proofs, I pity you. Mathematics may tell us how bullets affect a human body, but they don't tell us why shooting human beings is wrong.

No, biology and physics tells you that, mathematics tells you that the differential equations used to explain the trajectory of the bullet and the differential equations governing the flow of blood from the body are consistent, that they are complete, about their boundary limitations, about their complexity, and about the existence and smoothness of solutions (we haven't proven that or determined all boundary limitations for the Navier-Stokes Equations yet, but if you can prove (or disprove) it, there's a million dollar prize waiting for you).

So stop trying to make mathematics as trivial and vulgar as you are presenting it, it transcends all those questions, it's beyond the physical world, beyond both right and wrong, but all things happen according to its laws, it is Truth unadulterated by observation, subjectivity, or superstition.
Math is amoral. It has nothing to say about ethics.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2009, 05:03:53 PM »
it is Truth unadulterated by observation, subjectivity, or superstition.
Quid est veritas?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2009, 05:29:08 PM »
it is Truth unadulterated by observation, subjectivity, or superstition.
Quid est veritas?

ars mathematica veritas est! ;)

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2009, 05:35:44 PM »
What does anti-Semetic and homophonbic mean? ???
Neither of those terms mean anything ;D, but "anti-Semitic" means "biased or prejudiced against the descendants of Shem; that is, the Jewish and Arabic peoples,"

 And don't forget the Amharic and Ge'ez of Eritrea and Ethiopia, both Semitic languages and peoples.  But to answer the question of "Anti-Semitic" more specifically, the term is a propaganda misnomer employed by the Satanic Zionists in order to confuse the world community and foster sympathy for the Satanic Zionist government of Israel.  There are a multitude of problems with this phrase however.  First, as ytterbiumanalyst and myself have pointed out, Semites include a wide and varying range of peoples and religions; Semitic peoples can be as white as a Celt to as black as an Ethiopian and can be found following Christianity, Islam as well as Judaism.  So we see that calling someone 'anti-Semitic' simply cannot be limited to being anti-Judaism.  Secondly, within Judaism, one will find a racism so vile and rampant as to make their argument against the KKK and other racist groups look contradictory.  For example, white European Jews (Ashkenazi) are known to exact discriminatory policies against dark or black Spanish/Middle-Eastern/Ethiopian Jews (Sephardim).  Thirdly, it is well known that two groups of Semitic peoples, Arabs and Jews, are routinely at odds with one another due to the Satanic Zionist policies against the Arab peoples.  In fact, as late as 2006, a poll among Israel's Jews showed that 41% of them favor segregating Arabs. The article notes that "Racism is becoming mainstream" among Jews against Arabs.
 


« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 05:40:21 PM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2009, 05:41:15 PM »

Now you can probably see why I list it under my religion tag. ;)
Because there isn't a "fetish" tag.

There's a difference?
Yes.

Given the postmodern habit of changing the definition of words to fit whatever is necessary, I doubt I'll convince you, though. A fetish is something eliciting unquestioned reverence or devotion.
Actually, a fetish is something completely different, but let's not go there. :-X

Well, that's the most commonly talked about type of 'fetish' in the modern world, but I was referring to the more classical use of the term, which is still correct, though rarely used outside the field of anthropology, today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetishism

I don't know where he got his definition from.

Offline GiC

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2009, 05:45:53 PM »
But to answer the question of "Anti-Semitic" more specifically, the term is a propaganda misnomer employed by the Satanic Zionists in order to confuse the world community and foster sympathy for the Satanic Zionist government of Israel.

Ok, someone needs to put the conspiracy theory books down, the Bilderbergs aren't going to send UN soldiers to your house at the bidding of the Zionist conspiracy.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2009, 06:18:17 PM »
But to answer the question of "Anti-Semitic" more specifically, the term is a propaganda misnomer employed by the Satanic Zionists in order to confuse the world community and foster sympathy for the Satanic Zionist government of Israel.

Ok, someone needs to put the conspiracy theory books down, the Bilderbergs aren't going to send UN soldiers to your house at the bidding of the Zionist conspiracy.

 You didn't answer a single assertion that I made, two replete with references BTW.  Epic fail, chuckles.  :-*
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Are Christians anti-Semitic and Homophobic?
« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2009, 06:39:06 PM »
I forget the exact source, but I recently ran across someone (a homosexual atheist) who was saying how surprised he was at the amount of homophobia amongst atheists...

I can confirm that. In Ukraine, perhaps 99.9% of intellectuals are atheists, and virtually all of them - with VERY few exceptions - are homophobes.
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