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Author Topic: Why do some feel the need to convert and others not?  (Read 7366 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2009, 05:19:37 PM »

Futher, I think that the internal logic of Catholicism is more consistent and reasonable than the internal logic of Eastern Orthodoxy.


Well... you got us there Smiley
I am not so much talking about apophatic theology because as a Catholic, I accpet a certain form of this. Read my signature. What I am talking about is how we determine what is dogma and what is not. Of course, I am not arguing this position point by point at this moment, just pointing out my general view.
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« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2009, 09:22:56 AM »

Futher, I think that the internal logic of Catholicism is more consistent and reasonable than the internal logic of Eastern Orthodoxy.


Well... you got us there Smiley
I am not so much talking about apophatic theology because as a Catholic, I accpet a certain form of this. Read my signature. What I am talking about is how we determine what is dogma and what is not. Of course, I am not arguing this position point by point at this moment, just pointing out my general view.

Oh I understand.. It's almost a right brain, left brain sort of preference. My personal impression though is that this process within the Roman Church has been rather messy. I have Vatican One particularly in mind.

I considered becoming Catholic but I was attracted to Orthodoxy for the strong element of mystical process and aphophatic reasoning which I was already used to as a Buddhist.  "Not red nor green. Not up or down. Neither standing or sitting. No coming. No going"      etc  Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2009, 09:59:28 PM »

Futher, I think that the internal logic of Catholicism is more consistent and reasonable than the internal logic of Eastern Orthodoxy.


Well... you got us there Smiley
I am not so much talking about apophatic theology because as a Catholic, I accpet a certain form of this. Read my signature. What I am talking about is how we determine what is dogma and what is not. Of course, I am not arguing this position point by point at this moment, just pointing out my general view.

Oh I understand.. It's almost a right brain, left brain sort of preference. My personal impression though is that this process within the Roman Church has been rather messy. I have Vatican One particularly in mind.

I considered becoming Catholic but I was attracted to Orthodoxy for the strong element of mystical process and aphophatic reasoning which I was already used to as a Buddhist.  "Not red nor green. Not up or down. Neither standing or sitting. No coming. No going"      etc  Smiley

I totally understand where you are coming from with regard to mysticism. That's why I love Sts. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila.
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« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2009, 09:20:23 PM »

How is not chosing to convert, which as you wrote is chosing to believe that the claims of the EO are the truth, being deluded please?
Notice that I said that you may end up carrying certain beliefs, not everything. Any Westerner who has checked out Orthodoxy has definitely been influenced a little bit by it, much more someone who has actually explored it because he thought of converting. So, there may be cases where people know that Orthodoxy is true, but do not convert for various other reasons. Still, deep inside, they know that they should.
But my Psychology bachelor is still a couple of years away, so I think I'll pass. Tongue

 Smiley  OK. And what of some who think that EO is not the only way to be Christian?  

Quote
Quote
Well, what fruits of the Spirit are shown, one might ask.
Every Christian Church has some nice people, but that doesn't mean that they are the true Church. Still, only the Orthodox Church has true Saints; people who have dragged the limits of chastity to the very end.

Could you please expand in this a bit?  Chastity is the defining quality of a saint?  Not "caritas"?  Not "Greater love hath no man then hi give up his life..." for examples?

With respect,

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« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2009, 09:32:22 PM »

Smiley  OK. And what of some who think that EO is not the only way to be Christian? 

The EOC has never claimed they are the only way to heaven, we just claimed to have the fullness of the faith. Just because one is Orthodox does not gaurantee a ticket to heaven. Just because one is not Orthodox does not mean one is going to hell.

I think (personal opinion here) as long as one believes in the tenents expressed in the Nicene-Constantinople creed, then one is a Christian. Now one does not have to recite it every week to agree with it (i.e. the Baptist Church I used to attend did not recite the creed, but agreed with the statements in the creed.)

I don't know why more people do not convert to Orthodoxy. I've tried speaking to my mother about the faith many times, and she refuses to see it as anything but antiqueted and ethnic. (Even though I've taken her to a "convert friendly" English-speaking parish.) She doesn't care about Early Church Fathers or history or Apostolic Succession. Give her a happy-clappy service and that's her idea of worship.

Do I think my mother is going to hell as a result? No. That's not for me to judge. I know she loves Christ, I know she prays, I know she reads the scriptures.

That's more than many of us do.

May God have mercy on us all!
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« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2009, 09:38:47 PM »

Could you please expand in this a bit?  Chastity is the defining quality of a saint?  Not "caritas"?  Not "Greater love hath no man then hi give up his life..." for examples?
The only inhabitants of Jericho who were spared it's destruction were the prostitute Rahab and her family. And this prostitute was an Ancestor of Our Lord Jesus Christ who said: ""I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did."
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« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2009, 04:49:21 PM »

Smiley  OK. And what of some who think that EO is not the only way to be Christian? 

The EOC has never claimed they are the only way to heaven, we just claimed to have the fullness of the faith. Just because one is Orthodox does not gaurantee a ticket to heaven. Just because one is not Orthodox does not mean one is going to hell.

Yet on this forum a poster replied to me that if I did not get an EO baptism I would go to hell.  A person opinion, one would think, but written as definite. 

Quote
I think (personal opinion here) as long as one believes in the tenents expressed in the Nicene-Constantinople creed, then one is a Christian. Now one does not have to recite it every week to agree with it (i.e. the Baptist Church I used to attend did not recite the creed, but agreed with the statements in the creed.)

There have been some who claimed to be EO (though to be fair they were members of groups that referred to most EO jurisdictions as "World Orthodoxy" and not really EO either) who have said that to not be their particular "brand" is to not be Christian.  Again their personal opinion or that of their leader.

Another thread had a poster repeatedly writing that I personally was "afraid" (and someone used this as a reason above as well as being "afraid' of icons I think) and that is why I have not become EO.  He would not explain why he thought this even though I replied more then once that I am not "afraid", but said that I thought I wasn't afraid.  Undecided  I should hope that I have greater knowledge of my own emotional states than someone whom I have never met, but apparently my own words did not fit with some set idea of what people who do not convert are really like. 

I apologize for bringing in a personal note.  If it is inappropriate, I ask that the moderators remove what should not be here. 

With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2009, 04:57:26 PM »

Smiley  OK. And what of some who think that EO is not the only way to be Christian? 

The EOC has never claimed they are the only way to heaven, we just claimed to have the fullness of the faith. Just because one is Orthodox does not gaurantee a ticket to heaven. Just because one is not Orthodox does not mean one is going to hell.

Yet on this forum a poster replied to me that if I did not get an EO baptism I would go to hell.  A person opinion, one would think, but written as definite. 

Quote
I think (personal opinion here) as long as one believes in the tenents expressed in the Nicene-Constantinople creed, then one is a Christian. Now one does not have to recite it every week to agree with it (i.e. the Baptist Church I used to attend did not recite the creed, but agreed with the statements in the creed.)

There have been some who claimed to be EO (though to be fair they were members of groups that referred to most EO jurisdictions as "World Orthodoxy" and not really EO either) who have said that to not be their particular "brand" is to not be Christian.  Again their personal opinion or that of their leader.

Another thread had a poster repeatedly writing that I personally was "afraid" (and someone used this as a reason above as well as being "afraid' of icons I think) and that is why I have not become EO.  He would not explain why he thought this even though I replied more then once that I am not "afraid", but said that I thought I wasn't afraid.  Undecided  I should hope that I have greater knowledge of my own emotional states than someone whom I have never met, but apparently my own words did not fit with some set idea of what people who do not convert are really like. 

I apologize for bringing in a personal note.  If it is inappropriate, I ask that the moderators remove what should not be here. 

With respect,

Ebor

I don't think it's inappropriate. I think it's a fair statement.

If anything, I think this entire thread (to a degree) says more about human behavior than anything.

I have always said you can take ten people of the same race, religion, and socio-economic class, put them in a room, and they will find a way to cause division. (It's the blue eyes against the brown eyes!)

In my experience as an Orthodox Christian, I've never heard a priest or Bishop say that Christians of other faith groups were going to hell because they were not Orthodox. (I have heard priests say that your soul is in danger if you do not believe in Christ, but as you and I are both Christians, I think we can agree with that statement.)

This is different from my experience in the Evangelical community, where it has been widely preached that if you don't believe in their particular brand of Christianity, you are going to hell.

You mentioned that you have had similar experiences on this forum. As your statement seems to limit this experience to an internet forum, that does not surprise me, as that is sort of par for the course for the internet.

If you told me an Orthodox priest told you in person that you were going to hell, that would really surprise me.

In any case, no one should be telling anyone that they are going to hell, especially when they don't know the state of their own soul.
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« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2009, 04:59:04 PM »






There have been some who claimed to be EO (though to be fair they were members of groups that referred to most EO jurisdictions as "World Orthodoxy" and not really EO either) who have said that to not be their particular "brand" is to not be Christian. 

That should have tipped you off right there. Wink Grin
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« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2009, 05:12:54 PM »






There have been some who claimed to be EO (though to be fair they were members of groups that referred to most EO jurisdictions as "World Orthodoxy" and not really EO either) who have said that to not be their particular "brand" is to not be Christian. 

That should have tipped you off right there. Wink Grin

I assure you that their viewpoint was quite clear.  It's one that I have read in a number of places from a variety of Churches and religious bodies.

 
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« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2010, 09:26:17 PM »

I know people who say the Holy Spirit led them into Catholicism, others Protestantism.  Let's keep it limited to Christianity for the purpose of the discussion. 

Yet some are led to Orthodoxy.  Perhaps it depends on the temperament of the individual, as in more emotional types tend to get religion and convert.  And perhaps more temperaments with an authoritarian personality convert to Orthodoxy? 

2 questions really:

1) Why do people convert and others (especially with similar backgrounds) not?

2) Are all those who feel led into Protestantism and Roman Catholicism misreading the Spirit? 

K

in my opinion, the answers to 1 and 2 are the same.  not enough prople know about Orthodoxy to convert!  my priest was talking today in his sermon about how 80% of converts would not have converted to Orthodoxy had they not been invited to church.  In my case, I would not have known that Orthodoxy existed had I not been invited by myfriend.
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« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2010, 09:46:38 PM »

Smiley  OK. And what of some who think that EO is not the only way to be Christian? 

The EOC has never claimed they are the only way to heaven, we just claimed to have the fullness of the faith. Just because one is Orthodox does not gaurantee a ticket to heaven. Just because one is not Orthodox does not mean one is going to hell.

Yet on this forum a poster replied to me that if I did not get an EO baptism I would go to hell.  A person opinion, one would think, but written as definite. 

I'm not surprised. One sees this Medieval scare tactic employed all too frequently. Even amongst those of the same faith such threats are commonplace. Of course, it really amounts to nothing more than "If you don't agree with me, you will suffer the consquences!" It highlights, IMO, the delusion a person has regarding their own state of spiritual wellness that they even imagine that they can make such claims.



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« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2010, 10:24:24 PM »

Smiley  OK. And what of some who think that EO is not the only way to be Christian? 

The EOC has never claimed they are the only way to heaven, we just claimed to have the fullness of the faith. Just because one is Orthodox does not gaurantee a ticket to heaven. Just because one is not Orthodox does not mean one is going to hell.

Yet on this forum a poster replied to me that if I did not get an EO baptism I would go to hell.  A person opinion, one would think, but written as definite. 

I'm not surprised. One sees this Medieval scare tactic employed all too frequently. Even amongst those of the same faith such threats are commonplace. Of course, it really amounts to nothing more than "If you don't agree with me, you will suffer the consquences!" It highlights, IMO, the delusion a person has regarding their own state of spiritual wellness that they even imagine that they can make such claims.




ah, Yes.  this old issue.  reminds me of when my parents were first married, my Catholic grandmother said that their marriage would not be blessed by God if they did not get married in a Catholic church.  she also aid that I would go to hell if I was not baptized Catholic  (I was baptized Presbyterian.)
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« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2010, 11:10:59 PM »

Smiley  OK. And what of some who think that EO is not the only way to be Christian? 

The EOC has never claimed they are the only way to heaven, we just claimed to have the fullness of the faith. Just because one is Orthodox does not gaurantee a ticket to heaven. Just because one is not Orthodox does not mean one is going to hell.

Yet on this forum a poster replied to me that if I did not get an EO baptism I would go to hell.  A person opinion, one would think, but written as definite. 

I'm not surprised. One sees this Medieval scare tactic employed all too frequently. Even amongst those of the same faith such threats are commonplace. Of course, it really amounts to nothing more than "If you don't agree with me, you will suffer the consquences!" It highlights, IMO, the delusion a person has regarding their own state of spiritual wellness that they even imagine that they can make such claims.




ah, Yes.  this old issue.  reminds me of when my parents were first married, my Catholic grandmother said that their marriage would not be blessed by God if they did not get married in a Catholic church.  she also aid that I would go to hell if I was not baptized Catholic  (I was baptized Presbyterian.)

Yep. I haven't come across a group of people who don't have some in their number that try threats to keep people towing the line that they have established; for whatever reason. That's not to say there isn't a right path, or that one shouldn't strive to find that path and stay on it, but we don't all come to the same conclusions about religious matters, especially in the messy world of Christendom. We simply don't have the authority to declare or even imply that anyone (Christian or otherwise) is going to hell because they haven't come to the same conclusions as we have.
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« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2010, 11:17:51 PM »

Smiley  OK. And what of some who think that EO is not the only way to be Christian? 

The EOC has never claimed they are the only way to heaven, we just claimed to have the fullness of the faith. Just because one is Orthodox does not gaurantee a ticket to heaven. Just because one is not Orthodox does not mean one is going to hell.

Yet on this forum a poster replied to me that if I did not get an EO baptism I would go to hell.  A person opinion, one would think, but written as definite. 

I'm not surprised. One sees this Medieval scare tactic employed all too frequently. Even amongst those of the same faith such threats are commonplace. Of course, it really amounts to nothing more than "If you don't agree with me, you will suffer the consquences!" It highlights, IMO, the delusion a person has regarding their own state of spiritual wellness that they even imagine that they can make such claims.




ah, Yes.  this old issue.  reminds me of when my parents were first married, my Catholic grandmother said that their marriage would not be blessed by God if they did not get married in a Catholic church.  she also aid that I would go to hell if I was not baptized Catholic  (I was baptized Presbyterian.)

Yep. I haven't come across a group of people who don't have some in their number that try threats to keep people towing the line that they have established; for whatever reason. That's not to say there isn't a right path, or that one shouldn't strive to find that path and stay on it, but we don't all come to the same conclusions about religious matters, especially in the messy world of Christendom. We simply don't have the authority to declare or even imply that anyone (Christian or otherwise) is going to hell because they haven't come to the same conclusions as we have.
I wish more people thought that way....the world would be a better place. Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2010, 12:21:47 AM »

When the prophets and the apostles were in contact with God, they saw how Good is Him, and wanted everyone to know Him and receive Him who is everything to all of us.

This is exactly what happens to me, a christian, who is one with Christ, I want everyone to know God, and entre His Heavenly Kingdom, our motherland.

On the other hand, there are people who are indifferent to God, they are not with Him, they haven't converted yet, and that's why they can't convert others.

The desire to enlighten others comes from being enlightened ourselves, this is why the unenlightened do not have this gift.
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« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2010, 04:06:42 AM »

When the prophets and the apostles were in contact with God, they saw how Good is Him, and wanted everyone to know Him and receive Him who is everything to all of us.

This is exactly what happens to me, a christian, who is one with Christ, I want everyone to know God, and entre His Heavenly Kingdom, our motherland.

On the other hand, there are people who are indifferent to God, they are not with Him, they haven't converted yet, and that's why they can't convert others.

The desire to enlighten others comes from being enlightened ourselves, this is why the unenlightened do not have this gift.

I agree, an enlightened person wants to enlighten and convert; but not place stumbling blocks in the path of the lost. Trying to frighten people onto our side makes for poor converting techniques as most people in this day and age simply aren't going to be coerced or terrified into playing on our team; and rightly so. Such tactics are more off-putting than thought-provoking. A person comes to God because of longing and awe, and their own understanding that they are themselves flawed and utterly reliant on the mercy of God; not because some other flawed being told them that they would fry in hell because they didn't swallow everything that flawed being uttered.
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« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2010, 05:32:55 PM »

Dear Riddikulus,

What you explained is exactly what happens in false churches, and what is done by false teachers, because they serve the devil and they pick up the vices of their master: Pride, falsehood, lust for power, vainglory, lust for material things, etc. Being guided by him, they use his very same weapons terror, charming, seduction, coercion, hardening of the hearts, blocking intellectual activity, etc. and work for the achievement of the same goal: To keep people away from God and systematically destroy them.

We, as true christians, we know that from us only comes evil and sin, we know that it is the Lord who called us to Himself, He has chosen us, not us Him, and if He wants to bring others to Himself, He personally inspire us, instruct us, and guide all our words and thoughts, in such a way, that no one is able to gainsay us. Be one with Him, we have His authority, and gifts, and His sheep hear His voice.

Our Church is being severely persecuted, being the Moscow Patriarchate, and the rest of World Orthodoxy our most frenzied and cruel persecutors, they make people affraid of us by calling us  ignorants, fanatical, radical, crazy, and they make their attacks public, to terrorize others who want to join us.

Last year, we went on a pilgrimage to Kolima in Siberia, to serve a panikhida (memorial) on a common tomb where some new martyrs were buried after they were tortured and killed in the sorrounding gulags. It is a public place, everyone can entre. When we were celebrating the panikhida, a group of representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate, accompanied by police, and some other persons, stormed, held the Bishop by his wrists, and started attacking all of us, telling us to leave. As many others, I refused, and told them it was a public place, and we have the right to be there, unless it was closed. One of the police officers said that we were breaking the law by performing an illegal religious service. I said it was not illegal to pray int he open for the death, but they wouldn't listen, they kept pushing us, hitting us, and yelling like demons, trying to terrorize us and make us run away.

This sort of things tell us who is with Him, and who is with the enemy of salvation. Why do they need to resource to violence if they think they are right?  Can servants of the Prince of peace be so violent?












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« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2010, 11:33:42 AM »

How do you know they were representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate, especially since you were in Serbia?
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« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2010, 05:18:41 PM »

When the prophets and the apostles were in contact with God, they saw how Good is Him, and wanted everyone to know Him and receive Him who is everything to all of us.

This is exactly what happens to me, a christian, who is one with Christ, I want everyone to know God, and entre His Heavenly Kingdom, our motherland.

On the other hand, there are people who are indifferent to God, they are not with Him, they haven't converted yet, and that's why they can't convert others.

The desire to enlighten others comes from being enlightened ourselves, this is why the unenlightened do not have this gift.

There is an old saying. Anyone who says he is enlightened, isn't.  Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2010, 07:43:25 PM »

How do you know they were representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate, especially since you were in Serbia?

We all do mistakes Smiley I said Siberia, no offense.

How do I know? Because some of the representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate used to go out of their "monastery" from time to time, and be present at some of our services, they were neighbours of our community in the area.

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« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2010, 10:34:19 AM »

Ah, so you did.  My bad.  Carry on. Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2010, 12:16:45 PM »

Going back to the subject on this thread.

There are some religious persons who act as politicians, seeking fans, so to speak, to gain power, make them work for them, give them money, etc. This sad fact was used by the theorists of socialism as a basis for their ideology.

There are other persons who, having limited skills, or simply being lazy, call people to themselves, to create a sort of business in the guise of religion.

Finally, there are people who, out of fear to their leaders, or being under mind control mechanisms, frenetically carry on the task of getting as much people as they can.

On the other hand, there are people who do not want to convert others, because they are forbidden by their leadership, which signed agreements with other religious groups, in which they assure each other that none of them would promote conversions.

In some cases, people is very afraid not to be political correct, of being judged by others, losing their jobs and having their careers ruinned, being ostracized, having enmity with others,  and other social and legal repercussions. 

The motives for people wanting to convert others, or not, are very complex and diverse, it's not an easy subject, and it's not black and white, each person is a whole world, and only God knows the hearts of men.







« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 12:19:56 PM by IPC » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2010, 12:52:07 PM »

Dear Riddikulus,

What you explained is exactly what happens in false churches, and what is done by false teachers, because they serve the devil and they pick up the vices of their master: Pride, falsehood, lust for power, vainglory, lust for material things, etc. Being guided by him, they use his very same weapons terror, charming, seduction, coercion, hardening of the hearts, blocking intellectual activity, etc. and work for the achievement of the same goal: To keep people away from God and systematically destroy them.

We, as true christians, we know that from us only comes evil and sin, we know that it is the Lord who called us to Himself, He has chosen us, not us Him, and if He wants to bring others to Himself, He personally inspire us, instruct us, and guide all our words and thoughts, in such a way, that no one is able to gainsay us. Be one with Him, we have His authority, and gifts, and His sheep hear His voice.

Our Church is being severely persecuted, being the Moscow Patriarchate, and the rest of World Orthodoxy our most frenzied and cruel persecutors, they make people affraid of us by calling us  ignorants, fanatical, radical, crazy, and they make their attacks public, to terrorize others who want to join us.

Last year, we went on a pilgrimage to Kolima in Siberia, to serve a panikhida (memorial) on a common tomb where some new martyrs were buried after they were tortured and killed in the sorrounding gulags. It is a public place, everyone can entre. When we were celebrating the panikhida, a group of representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate, accompanied by police, and some other persons, stormed, held the Bishop by his wrists, and started attacking all of us, telling us to leave. As many others, I refused, and told them it was a public place, and we have the right to be there, unless it was closed. One of the police officers said that we were breaking the law by performing an illegal religious service. I said it was not illegal to pray int he open for the death, but they wouldn't listen, they kept pushing us, hitting us, and yelling like demons, trying to terrorize us and make us run away.

This sort of things tell us who is with Him, and who is with the enemy of salvation. Why do they need to resource to violence if they think they are right?  Can servants of the Prince of peace be so violent?
So, the Zars were servants of the devil in persecuting the Old Ritualists? Where does that leave you?

Btw, why weren't you arrested?  I've tried to find a newstory on the incident you claim happened in Kolma in 2009 (for nothing else, to get the name of a bishop you claim as yours), but didn't find anything.
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« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2010, 11:41:38 PM »

I did work in a Kosher Restaurant and was around very Orthodox Jews there. I was in a Jewish Fraternity in High School ( AZA ). I have suffered from anti-semitism.

I am sorry to hear you suffered from anti-semitism.
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