Kaste
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« on: November 27, 2009, 02:46:08 PM » |
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There was a Russian clip of the former Patriarch of Moscow deriding people who believe we evolved from Monkeys. I cannot find the clip at the moment but he said something like "If people want to believe they came from monkeys then that's up to them..."
Almost all Catholics and many liberal Protestants believe in monkey to man evolution. Do Orthodox take a strong stand one way or the other?
K
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augustin717
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2009, 02:56:22 PM » |
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I would say you oversimplify the matter of evolution> But anyways, probably most Orthodox can sleep well at night without having clear-cut answers to all these questions you seem so worried about. I'm one of them and I don't care...
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« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 02:57:06 PM by augustin717 »
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mountainman
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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2009, 02:59:59 PM » |
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physiologically... perhaps. The jury is still out. Spiritually... well in that case monkeys evolved from man. Man, being created in the image of God, contains all of creation within himself. All of the multitudes of creatures personify in their nature a certain aspect of the human nature. Even if physical evolution were true, man would still stand at the pinnacle of creation as the priest who offers back to God. So perhaps a more important question would be is believing one way or the other important to upholding the Orthodox faith?
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EofK
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2009, 03:09:17 PM » |
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There are several threads on this, but here's the longest and most involved: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4959.0.html. |
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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams
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ytterbiumanalyst
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2009, 03:24:32 PM » |
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Almost all Catholics and many liberal Protestants believe in monkey to man evolution.
No they don't. No one believes man evolved from monkeys, not even Darwin himself. According to Darwin's book On the Descent of Man, humans, apes, chimpanzees, and the like probably shared a common ancestor. And no, the Orthodox Church as a general rule does not give an opinion on scientific matters. |
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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
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HandmaidenofGod
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2009, 04:06:30 PM » |
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The Church does not have an official stand on evolution.
There are some who believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis and there are some who believe in the Big Bang theory and Evolution.
What we all believe is that God was involved. The details of the how, what, and when, are irrelevant to our salvation.
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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2009, 04:53:58 PM » |
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No one believes man evolved from monkeys, not even Darwin himself. According to Darwin's book On the Descent of Man, humans, apes, chimpanzees, and the like probably shared a common ancestor. I just thought this needed to be stressed again. Monkeys do not 'morph' into humans, and nobody has every suggested that they do. |
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GammaRay
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2009, 05:14:46 PM » |
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No well-informed man on Earth believes in the "monkey to man" evolution. Point understood though.  As HandmaidenofGod said, no official statements yet. But, no Church Father ever believed in evolution...probably because they were not aware of such a theory (duh!). There are still Orthodox "conservatives" (or is this a bad thing to call someone?) who do not believe in it. I think that the problem is not theological, but rather social and political (most think that evolution=atheism=communism et cetera). But that's not the proper topic to actually debate about, we already have one. |
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Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.
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Entscheidungsproblem
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2009, 05:19:29 PM » |
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No one believes man evolved from monkeys, not even Darwin himself. According to Darwin's book On the Descent of Man, humans, apes, chimpanzees, and the like probably shared a common ancestor. I just thought this needed to be stressed again. Monkeys do not 'morph' into humans, and nobody has every suggested that they do. So you doubt the existence of the mighty morphing "fronkey"?  Behold him in all his evolutionary splendour.  |
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« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 05:21:30 PM by Nebelpfade »
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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS |
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Jimmy
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2009, 05:21:38 PM » |
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No one believes man evolved from monkeys, not even Darwin himself. According to Darwin's book On the Descent of Man, humans, apes, chimpanzees, and the like probably shared a common ancestor. I just thought this needed to be stressed again. Monkeys do not 'morph' into humans, and nobody has every suggested that they do. It should also be pointed out that the argument isn't that a monkey gives birth to a human either. Evolution argues that there is a gradual evolution of a population. Macro and microevolution are ultimately the same thing because speciation only comes in when there is a division of populations so that there are multiple populations in which there is no interbreeding for long periods of time. If the populations are not reintroduced, after thousands of years they will be physiologically incapable of interbreeding due to the genetic changes that accumulate over time. There are now barriers to breeding. The mechanism that determines which genetic changes will survive is natural selection. Some genetic changes are beneficial and so they naturally increase the fitness of the individual to reproduce. If someone is going to argue agaainst evolution they must argue against the science using their reason. As humans we are reasonable beings and so we must use our reason. We can't argue against an old universe by saying that God simply made it appear to be old to test our faith. That said, I accept evolution and I accept the Church Fathers. I haven't integrated them or attempted to reconcile them though. |
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« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 05:27:25 PM by Jimmy »
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Riddikulus
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2009, 08:06:12 PM » |
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Almost all Catholics and many liberal Protestants believe in monkey to man evolution.
No they don't. No one believes man evolved from monkeys, not even Darwin himself. According to Darwin's book On the Descent of Man, humans, apes, chimpanzees, and the like probably shared a common ancestor. And no, the Orthodox Church as a general rule does not give an opinion on scientific matters. Thanks, MrY. I was wondering if someone would correct the fallacy in this question.  And I see on further reading that others did, too! |
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« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 08:08:27 PM by Riddikulus »
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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.
Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
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Jetavan
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2009, 08:50:40 PM » |
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Almost all Catholics and many liberal Protestants believe in monkey to man evolution.
No they don't. No one believes man evolved from monkeys, not even Darwin himself. According to Darwin's book On the Descent of Man, humans, apes, chimpanzees, and the like probably shared a common ancestor. And no, the Orthodox Church as a general rule does not give an opinion on scientific matters. Thanks, MrY. I was wondering if someone would correct the fallacy in this question. And I see on further reading that others did, too! There's another point that must be made, too. Darwin may have argued that humans, apes, and monkeys evolved from a "common ancestor", but modern evolutionary theory clearly indicates that humans and chimps evolved from a chimp-like ancestor that lived around 6 million years ago, and this chimp-like ancestor (which no longer exists) was also therefore classified as an "ape". |
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2009, 06:56:11 AM » |
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Do Orthodox take a strong stand one way or the other?
You seem to think that the Orthodox Church is this monolithic structure which micro-manages every aspect of its members existence, i.e. "All Orthodox must believe this particular scientific theory" or "Orthodox Christians must hold this particular view of climate change" or "Orthodox Christians must use this particular medication for this particular ailment".... It's just not like that. We share One Lord, One Faith, Baptism and One Bread. But when we are sick, we consult a doctor. When we want to learn, we go to University or College or School. When we want salami, we go to the delicatessan. |
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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
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Riddikulus
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2009, 08:53:21 AM » |
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^We're allowed salami?  |
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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.
Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
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sprtslvr1973
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2009, 09:38:39 AM » |
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While I am a 7 day creationist I have some empathy for the concept of Intelligent Design. However I believe the idead of Man originating from anything but clay to be wrong
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"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
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jnorm888
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2009, 11:28:37 AM » |
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Do Orthodox take a strong stand one way or the other?
K No, you will find both here. I personally don't believe in it, and I know others that don't as well, but I also know of Orthodox that do believe in it. You will find many on this forum that do. To be honest, I personally learned alot from them..........even if I don't tell them personally. I am no longer a strict literal 6 day creationist (God rested on the 7th). The Jews counted days differently than we do, and they often included partial days as days as well, and so I see a strict 24 hour day to the very second literalism as being something foreign to the ancient jewish mind. In my own personal research, I saw a change in thought happening in the protestant west right around......hmm...I wanna say the 16nth century...but it could of been the 17nth or the 18nth century. I need to re-read my sources just to make sure. But around that time, they rejected the symbolism and allegory as seen by some ancient christian patristics, and some ancient jewish rabbis. They rejected it for a strictly literal reading of the text of Genesis. My source for this, came from the book: http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Protestantism-Rise-Natural-Science/dp/0521000963The english of this book is pretty high, and so, it may be a difficult read for some, but it's a good read. And so, I tolerate other creationists.......even if they don't see themselves as being one. It doesn't matter to me if you are a young earther, old earther, or a theistic evolutionist. ICXC NIKA |
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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D. http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/ |
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Riddikulus
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2009, 07:11:16 PM » |
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Intelligent Design is merely a belated attempt to play the disastrous "God of the gaps" card. And really, not another thread on evolution!!!!??  |
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« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 07:16:52 PM by Riddikulus »
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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.
Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2009, 07:24:30 PM » |
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« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 07:27:33 PM by Asteriktos »
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"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled." - Plutarch
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2009, 09:10:16 PM » |
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And really, not another thread on evolution!!!!?? You can never have enough threads on evolution. |
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« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 09:12:33 PM by ozgeorge »
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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
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ytterbiumanalyst
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2009, 11:10:49 PM » |
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And really, not another thread on evolution!!!!?? You can never have enough threads on evolution. Maybe one day, one of them will, through the miracle of genetic mutation, give birth to a rational discussion. |
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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
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Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2009, 12:33:15 AM » |
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^ ROFL! Someone on OC.net would then have to volunteer to write up this strange phenomenon in a reputable scientific journal.
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Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
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Riddikulus
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« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2009, 02:18:45 AM » |
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And really, not another thread on evolution!!!!?? You can never have enough threads on evolution. Maybe one day, one of them will, through the miracle of genetic mutation, give birth to a rational discussion. |
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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.
Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
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GammaRay
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« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2009, 04:12:52 PM » |
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Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.
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