Author Topic: Multiple liturgies on the same day  (Read 1871 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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Multiple liturgies on the same day
« on: November 24, 2009, 05:27:49 PM »
As we approach nativity, the parish I am attending finally released the schedule for dec. 24.

We will serve the Royal hours at 9 followed by the Vesperal Liturgy of St. Basil the Great.  Later in the day (7 pm), we will have the Orthros service and Divine Liturgy for the day of Nativity.  Now, I thought that only one Liturgy could be served on the altar per day.  This seems to me to be against the canons.  I don't want to say anything to the priest because I'm only here temporarily until the new year but as I am a chanter and will be responsible for chanting the service, I have some issues.  I want to ask if we could start at 11:00 in the evening so that the consecration would take place the next day. 

What do you think?
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Multiple liturgies on the same day
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 05:30:30 PM »
As we approach nativity, the parish I am attending finally released the schedule for dec. 24.

We will serve the Royal hours at 9 followed by the Vesperal Liturgy of St. Basil the Great.  Later in the day (7 pm), we will have the Orthros service and Divine Liturgy for the day of Nativity.  Now, I thought that only one Liturgy could be served on the altar per day.  This seems to me to be against the canons.  I don't want to say anything to the priest because I'm only here temporarily until the new year but as I am a chanter and will be responsible for chanting the service, I have some issues.  I want to ask if we could start at 11:00 in the evening so that the consecration would take place the next day. 

What do you think?

Is it possible that there is two altars?? The Cathedral I attend has two DLs one Sunday a month.
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Multiple liturgies on the same day
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 05:31:40 PM »
Technically speaking, the "second" consecration would be the "next day", wouldn't it, as 7pm would be after sundown.
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Offline basilthefool

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Re: Multiple liturgies on the same day
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2009, 06:26:43 PM »
What about Liturgies of the PreSanctified Gifts when Annunciation falls on a Thursday during Great Lent? For which day is a Wednesday night PreSanctified Gifts Liturgy celebrated? And if it for Thursday, could the PSG Liturgy be celebrated Thursday evening?

Offline Basil 320

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Re: Multiple liturgies on the same day
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 06:31:31 PM »
Parishes are doing a Vesperal Liturgy, after sundown, on Christmas Eve, and an Orthros and Divine Liturgy on the morning of Christmas Day.  I can't recall the canonical justification for this, other than possibly the exercise of "Economy," by the diocesan bishop, for the convenience of families (evening service),  but who may not want the church closed on Christmas Day.  I'll ask a priest and reply tomorrow.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Multiple liturgies on the same day
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2009, 06:53:47 PM »
I wouldn't say anything.

Pascha, Nativity, and Theophany are the three Feasts that supercede the one Liturgy per day rule.  Since the Liturgical day starts with Vespers and the above Feasts start with Vesperal Liturgy, anyway you slice it there will not be a 24 hour interval from one Liturgy to the next, which means in one Liturgical day you have two Liturgies for these three Feasts.  The exception that proves the rule.

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Multiple liturgies on the same day
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2009, 07:19:01 PM »

Is it possible that there is two altars?? The Cathedral I attend has two DLs one Sunday a month.

This church has only the one altar.

Technically speaking, the "second" consecration would be the "next day", wouldn't it, as 7pm would be after sundown.

But wouldn't that be the time for the Vesperal LIturgy in the first place?
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Multiple liturgies on the same day
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2009, 07:24:03 PM »

Is it possible that there is two altars?? The Cathedral I attend has two DLs one Sunday a month.

This church has only the one altar.

Technically speaking, the "second" consecration would be the "next day", wouldn't it, as 7pm would be after sundown.

But wouldn't that be the time for the Vesperal LIturgy in the first place?
In theory, yes, but it would not be uncanonical, since the two liturgies are on two different liturgical days. In practice, many parishes change the times of services so as to allow more people to attend them. It seems that is what your parish is doing. As long as the services are done on the liturgical day prescribed for them, it doesn't really matter at what time they are done.
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Multiple liturgies on the same day
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2009, 07:49:43 PM »

Is it possible that there is two altars?? The Cathedral I attend has two DLs one Sunday a month.

This church has only the one altar.

Technically speaking, the "second" consecration would be the "next day", wouldn't it, as 7pm would be after sundown.

But wouldn't that be the time for the Vesperal LIturgy in the first place?
In theory, yes, but it would not be uncanonical, since the two liturgies are on two different liturgical days. In practice, many parishes change the times of services so as to allow more people to attend them. It seems that is what your parish is doing. As long as the services are done on the liturgical day prescribed for them, it doesn't really matter at what time they are done.

Indeed.  Think about how the services are ordered at the end of Holy Week.  Everything is topsy-turvy and the only practical reason (aside from the after-the-fact-spiritual-the-world-is-topsy-turvy-because-Christ-is-dying reason) is so more people can hear the prayers @ Matins.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Multiple liturgies on the same day
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2009, 10:15:35 PM »
The spirit of the law behind the "one Liturgy per day" rule is to ensure that everyone attends the same Liturgy. The Vesperal Liturgy of St. Basil on Christmas eve is accompaied here (in Greek practice at least) with the Service of Holy Unction in preperation for Christmas Day, so everyone is encouraged to attend both Liturgies.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Multiple liturgies on the same day
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2009, 10:46:42 PM »
Technically speaking, the "second" consecration would be the "next day", wouldn't it, as 7pm would be after sundown.

That is missing the point, however.  Vespers starts the Liturgical day regardless of when you actually take the service.  What is more important the time of the day of the service or the texts of the services and what they are celebrating?  Vespers is the service of the 11th hour, that is 5pm, so ideally it would start between that time and sunset.  The Typicon states that 5pm is the time that Vesperal Liturgy for Pascha to start, it must also end by 8pm and then Midnight hour, Orthros and Liturgy can start at 11pm.  It also states Vesperal Liturgy should start at 1pm for Nativity and 11am for Theophany, one assumes to make way for Great Compline of these Feasts as the primary evening service.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 10:47:32 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Multiple liturgies on the same day
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2009, 01:42:15 AM »
As we approach nativity, the parish I am attending finally released the schedule for dec. 24.

We will serve the Royal hours at 9 followed by the Vesperal Liturgy of St. Basil the Great.  Later in the day (7 pm), we will have the Orthros service and Divine Liturgy for the day of Nativity. 
It seems like this may be a pastoral matter, there is nothing wrong with the order that is being done and there is separation between the services. While I think it is preferred to celebrate the service closer to Midnight there maybe concerns about attendance.

Remember if we are following these services by the Typicon the Vesperal Liturgy would be begun shortly before sunset and we would keep vigil at the church with Great Compline beginning after Liturgy, going right into Orthros and the Festal Liturgy and be expected to communion at both liturgies.
Joseph