Author Topic: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)  (Read 1432 times)

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Offline 88Devin12

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St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« on: August 08, 2011, 12:06:46 PM »
I'm just curious how we would (or if we would) resolve this issue, now that St. Cyril Lukaris is an Orthodox saint, if, in a future council, the Council of Jerusalem is approved as completely Orthodox (I wouldn't say ecumenical, but possibly). How would we resolve the issue of his condemnation at Jerusalem, and his position as a Saint?

(also, I would ask, why would Origen not be regarded as a Saint, when we have other saints that made bad theological errors, and some even denounced at councils?)

Offline mike

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2011, 12:11:55 PM »
It is argued whether he wrote 'Confessions' because his other writings are not controversial and contradictory to confessions.

AFAIR the main reason for non-canonising Origenes was his self-castration, not theological errors.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2011, 12:13:35 PM »
It is argued whether he wrote 'Confessions' because his other writings are not controversial and contradictory to confessions.

AFAIR the main reason for non-canonising Origenes was his self-castration, not theological errors.

Ah yes, I forgot that about Origen... I know self-castration is absolutely forbidden, but don't we also have a saint who (taking the scripture too literally) literally plucked out his own eye?

Offline Orest

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 12:39:28 PM »
I am REALLY out of the loop.  i remember studying about Patriarch Cyril Lukaris and his pro-Protestant Confession but his canonization is a surprize to me.  When did it happen?  Is there an English translation of the Tropar etc. to him?

Offline mike

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 12:42:24 PM »
When did it happen?

Last year, or something.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2011, 12:48:00 PM »
St. Cyril was not condemned, only the confession wrongly ascribed to him was condemned. The fathers did not believe it to be his since St. Cyril was known from many other works as writing in excellent Greek, and the confession was written in poor Greek, most likely by Calvinists in Europe looking to support their cause. St. Cyril himself denounced both Roman Catholicism and Calvinism. He verbally  denied writing the confession ascribed to him. Also, he was known for his work for Orthodoxy and opposition to Roman Catholicism. For this, he was murdered by papist agents. For years, English-speakers have been reading about his supposed Calvinism, but this is due almost solely to the fact that most of the accurate information we have on him is entirely in Greek. His case is yet another example of how we cannot trust English sources as being totally accurate when it comes to so many Orthodox things.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 12:51:38 PM »
The Myth of the "Calvinist Patriarch"
by Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna
Webmaster's Note: The Orthodox Christian Information Center asked Archbishop Chrysostomos, the Academic Director for the Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies,  to review the comments made by a Protestant publication called Credenda Agenda in their articles "Confessio Fidei" and "The Reformation that Failed" (by Chris Schlect; see Vol. 6, No. 5). His Eminence graciously replied and made a number of comments about the issues at hand, excerpts from which are presented in a condensed and selected form below. This is the first of numerous forthcoming installments responding to the articles in Credenda Agenda.

Just as today one must see the Orthodox world in its greater historical context, so in Patriarch Kyrillos’ day, too, Orthodoxy existed in a world of political reality that must be carefully studied, in order to see what implications rise above his specific witness and faithfully address Orthodoxy at a general level. To this end, let me just say, as a general observation, that with the fall of Constantinople the Orthodox East fell under Latin domination and the Turkish Yoke. Its survival threatened, its spiritual and intellectual primacy relinquished to the West, Orthodoxy in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries took on an historical character that cannot be applied universally to the Church’s experience and ethos, and especially, again, without careful examination and precision.


The rest of the essay can be read here: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ca4_loukaris.aspx



Quote of essay pared down to one-paragraph excerpt to make post compliant with rule on how to quote outside articles (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules)  - PtA
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 02:19:21 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2011, 01:12:48 PM »
My only two thoughts are:

1) One local Church glorifying someone as a saint does not magically require everyone to consider them a saint.
2) If the Orthodox are smart, the Council of Jerusalem (ie. Confession of Dositheus) should be ignored until it goes away.

Offline recent convert

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2011, 01:52:48 PM »
I have always been a great admirer of Patr. Cyril Lukaris & had always been skeptical of that confession being attributed to him. He was a devout, brave, forward thinking (but not revisionist), & now a martyred saint. He helped secure the printing press within the dark confines of the Ottoman realm & sent a copy of the letter of  St.Clement of Rome to King Charles I of England (who was a staunch Anglican opponent of Calvinism).
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 01:53:23 PM by recent convert »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2011, 02:05:26 PM »
2) If the Orthodox are smart, the Council of Jerusalem (ie. Confession of Dositheus) should be ignored until it goes away.

Why?
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline recent convert

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 02:09:25 PM »
I think Bishop Kallistos Ware says in his book (The Orthodox Church) that Dositheus was not sure if Lukaris had drawn a Calvinistic confession but was just trying to maintain order (in so many words) & even protect Lukaris' legacy in some way.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2011, 02:13:44 PM »
2) If the Orthodox are smart, the Council of Jerusalem (ie. Confession of Dositheus) should be ignored until it goes away.

Why?

Because it completely distorts Orthodox theology and practice with it's latinizations.

Offline jckstraw72

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2011, 03:41:40 PM »
My only two thoughts are:

1) One local Church glorifying someone as a saint does not magically require everyone to consider them a saint.


its my understanding that the local Churches accept the canonizations of the other local Churches. Is there any reason to question that this is the work of the Holy Spirit?

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2011, 03:51:04 PM »
My only two thoughts are:

1) One local Church glorifying someone as a saint does not magically require everyone to consider them a saint.


its my understanding that the local Churches accept the canonizations of the other local Churches. Is there any reason to question that this is the work of the Holy Spirit?

No, I shouldn't have said it like I did. I was perhaps thinking of how things don't just domino, so that one glorification requires everyone else to follow suit... nonetheless, I'm not sure how much disagreement there can be in situations like this... so I take that back.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2011, 09:02:30 PM »
I'm not which local Church would contest it. If anything, St. Cyril would just be buried in the Synaxarion like so many others. It's a bigger matter for a local Church to comemorate a new saint liturgically, since if you commemorate a new one, you supplant an old one usually.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 09:05:00 PM by Shanghaiski »
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Offline mike

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2011, 02:20:32 AM »
Canonisations may not be usually accepted (for example no one in your Church knows anything about that Saint) but they are not protested.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2011, 02:26:28 AM »
What are these "canonizations" that you all keep speaking of? Did Orthodoxy latinize it's terminology when I was away from the forum for a couple months?  :-*

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2011, 10:08:35 AM »
What are these "canonizations" that you all keep speaking of? Did Orthodoxy latinize it's terminology when I was away from the forum for a couple months?  :-*

The Latins were staunchly Orthodox for 1,000 before they slid off into heresy.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: St. Cyril Lukaris and Council of Jerusalem (1672 AD)
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2011, 11:57:45 AM »
What are these "canonizations" that you all keep speaking of? Did Orthodoxy latinize it's terminology when I was away from the forum for a couple months?  :-*

The Latins were staunchly Orthodox for 1,000 before they slid off into heresy.

And grass outside my apartment is green, though neither addresses the point I was making. Not that I care about the point, I just like poking at people sometimes. Hence the kissy emoticon.  Talk about canonizing, confirming, Fr. [Insert Last Name], etc. all you want.  :angel: