Author Topic: What do you think is this not the gospel? Refute parts that are heresy please  (Read 339 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Paul says the law which was supposed to bring life I found to cause death. He also says salvation is a gift of God through faith not of works lest any man should boast.
We actually can't become righteous no matter how hard we try because we each have a sin nature. Even St Mary had a sin nature.

Ephesians 2:8-9(NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

We have to trust in Jesus to save us. If we died to the law it means we no longer try to obey it. Im not saying it must not be kept. If we really accepted Christs love and His person it would be natural to keep it. We acknowledge we cannot keep it. For whoever keeps the whole law except one point is guilty of all. Noone can even repent fully. The law demands perfect repentance but Christ only seeks us to grow in the fruits of the Spirit and He demands perfect repentance we can keep unlike what the law says. God puts His Holy Spirit in us and leads us to keep it perhaps the moment we trust in Him to save us. It is true the one on the rocky ground had some faith but it was not complete faith because if he really accepted Jesus he would accept tribulation. I don't know if it is genuine faith at all. We go through different phases of being different ground until we are saved bearing fruit and continue being saved bearing fruit. One may say I accepted Jesus I am saved but then you find that person does not bear any fruit or even desire to read the bible. Paul said God works in us to will and to do for His good pleasure. The person who is truly being saved a term orthodox accept is the good ground and this one would desire to read the word and He will grow with the milk of the word day by day.
You can never say I am saved. Only God knows our hearts and if we are being saved

If we truly ever accepted Jesus and were His own we would always try to always do what pleases Him because when we accepted Him we acknowledged that we accept His way or atleast we would come back to Him.

The water which Ezekiel mentions which will purify us is Jesus words as St Jerome thinks

Jerome: I will certainly not pour on them the waters of baptism but the waters of the teaching and the Word of God, and I will purify them of all their iniquities and from every single one of their idols and from the errors that they make in their hearts. Commentary on Ezekiel 11.36.16–38.

I think this means we can not save ourselves as Jesus said without Me you can do nothing but with Jesus as our teacher we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us
To fully trust in Christ I mean trust in Jesus alone is to believe He will give us a new heart desiring to hear all His words which will give us life and  and guarantee our righteous living so it is written man does not live by bread alone but by every word of God. We acknowledge the powerful and natural work of His words which He refers to as Spirit and they are life to make us righteous and so glory is given to Christ for making us desire to hear the word and for His words naturally changing us.

I think if we give heed to every word of God  (this also is not our work but a result of the new heart we get by prayer and being saved - being saved is not alien to orthodoxy only saved is)  which Jesus says gives life living righteously will become natural so glory is given to Christ not to ourselves. This may explain Ephesians 2:8-9 about not boasting. We keep the law through Christ and not ourselves so glory is given to Christ.  We trust in Christ to lead us to righteousness giving up reliance in our own strength but to give us a new heart that we may be inclined to good so Jesus will be the author and finisher of our faith. I refer to Philippians 1:6 to explain that what Christ starts in us He will complete only if we have the same faith. It may be hard to have that faith so we need to be renew our faith again.

Philippians 1:6(NKJV)
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

 This may explain trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths

Which is related to Jesus saying I thank You Father that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes.

Which is related to Jesus saying unless you receive the kingdom as little children (I think babies) you will not enter it.

Children are insignificant not having any works to boast about. So Jesus said if you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will God give good things and the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him. Children glory in their dad not themselves. They acknowledge all good comes from their dad


We do need to fully repent according to the new testament requirements but the law asks us to do more than what we can do. We know St Mary was without sin but do we think she kept the law perfectly? Only Jesus did I think

Edit: When I say trust in Jesus alone to save us I do not mean works are not necessary. But we must give up the idea we can produce fruits mostly to our credit. So it is said if anyone thinks he can repent without prayer is deceived by the devils because in prayer we get the new heart.


« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 09:31:40 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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I know my beliefs are obviously orthodox because I did not stress what I wanted to say which is trusting in Jesus alone to be free from sin. I could not because that denies free will assuming it does not involve effort. However I can say trusting in Jesus alone for a new heart is important but that can not be done in a single moment because we only learn about ourselves with time our person is not fixed in a single moment. But as we do it we do not work any more but He works in us so effort is replaced with His work. So Jesus said this is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He sent

But what do you think of this area of romans? specifically it is said we are conquerers through Him who loved us?  Paul also has faith that if we truly accepted christ no tribulation shall shake us. So he is not speaking to people who don't have true faith which is deep rooted faith. But he is convinced that our true faith is based on the love Christ has for us who gave it to us freely when we sought it. So He also says He who did not spare His own Son shall shall He not freely give us all things

Romans 8:31-39(NKJV)

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[a]
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 10:02:09 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline OrthoDisco

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If we truly ever accepted Jesus and were His own we would always try to always do what pleases Him because when we accepted Him we acknowledged that we accept His way or atleast we would come back to Him.

I always thought we do what pleases him (follow his commandments) because we (are supposed to) love him and "the fear of the Lord". NOT a fear of punishment or retribution or hell or anything like that! But the fear we have of grieving someone who loves us dearly, and damaging of the relationship (separation from God). This is the relationship God wants from us, that we are his children. And children who LOVE their parents, and have parents who LOVE them, fear doing things that will hurt their parents. From here we can see how genuine heart-felt repentance is a big deal.  ( For my part, I never did have a good relationship with my parents, so the idea of LOVE like this, and that God loved us first, and not wanting to grieve the Lord, really penetrates my heart.)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 02:24:31 PM by OrthoDisco »

Offline Ainnir

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If we truly ever accepted Jesus and were His own we would always try to always do what pleases Him because when we accepted Him we acknowledged that we accept His way or atleast we would come back to Him.

I always thought we do what pleases him (follow his commandments) because we (are supposed to) love him and "the fear of the Lord". NOT a fear of punishment or retribution or hell or anything like that! But the fear we have of grieving someone who loves us dearly, and damaging of the relationship (separation from God). This is the relationship God wants from us, that we are his children. And children who LOVE their parents, and have parents who LOVE them, fear doing things that will hurt their parents. From here we can see how genuine heart-felt repentance is a big deal.  ( For my part, I never did have a good relationship with my parents, so the idea of LOVE like this, and that God loved us first, and not wanting to grieve the Lord, really penetrates my heart.)

Well said. 

Offline mikeforjesus

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If we truly ever accepted Jesus and were His own we would always try to always do what pleases Him because when we accepted Him we acknowledged that we accept His way or atleast we would come back to Him.

I always thought we do what pleases him (follow his commandments) because we (are supposed to) love him and "the fear of the Lord". NOT a fear of punishment or retribution or hell or anything like that! But the fear we have of grieving someone who loves us dearly, and damaging of the relationship (separation from God). This is the relationship God wants from us, that we are his children. And children who LOVE their parents, and have parents who LOVE them, fear doing things that will hurt their parents. From here we can see how genuine heart-felt repentance is a big deal.  ( For my part, I never did have a good relationship with my parents, so the idea of LOVE like this, and that God loved us first, and not wanting to grieve the Lord, really penetrates my heart.)

That is a perfect explanation. However not everyone has that relation that he feels such relation gives divine  power to not sin and seperate oneself from God.
I hope I find out how or please tell me how.
If one is going to be separated from God and you do not mean that relation gives power but you mean you should not fear God will punish you if you sin I don't understand why one should  not fear as he will be seperated from God. Jesus said if your members causes you to sin take drastic measures not to sin
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 11:01:01 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline WPM

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Trying my best to understand.

Offline OrthoDisco

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If we truly ever accepted Jesus and were His own we would always try to always do what pleases Him because when we accepted Him we acknowledged that we accept His way or atleast we would come back to Him.

I always thought we do what pleases him (follow his commandments) because we (are supposed to) love him and "the fear of the Lord". NOT a fear of punishment or retribution or hell or anything like that! But the fear we have of grieving someone who loves us dearly, and damaging of the relationship (separation from God). This is the relationship God wants from us, that we are his children. And children who LOVE their parents, and have parents who LOVE them, fear doing things that will hurt their parents. From here we can see how genuine heart-felt repentance is a big deal.  ( For my part, I never did have a good relationship with my parents, so the idea of LOVE like this, and that God loved us first, and not wanting to grieve the Lord, really penetrates my heart.)

That is a perfect explanation. However not everyone has that relation that he feels such relation gives divine  power to not sin and seperate oneself from God.
I hope I find out how or please tell me how.
If one is going to be separated from God and you do not mean that relation gives power but you mean you should not fear God will punish you if you sin I don't understand why one should  not fear as he will be seperated from God. Jesus said if your members causes you to sin take drastic measures not to sin


You are asking how to not sin?
I don't expect you've read the book Scent of Holiness about life in a women's monastery. One of the lessons is a story about the different characters that exist in people. Whats right for me might not be right for you, so forgive me for sounding like a know it all.

The background of the story begins with depression, but I think it could be applicable in this conversation too as it deals with sorrow over our sins. (I say a healthy sorrow because that's when we realize we don't want to make a particular sin anymore, and are more likely to change.) It's not necessary to always think of yourself as a sinner, and that sometimes it is better to be grateful to God, and if you make mistakes to accept your fall, rise again, and ask God for forgiveness. I will excerpt this from page 82-83:
*********************************
"I don't have a blessing to think too much about hell or the Judgement." she told me, smiling in a way that revealed a low opinion of herself.
             
Hearing this, I realized that the "hard path" (Elder Porphyrios) really is not for everyone --- especially those prone to despondency or despair. And it is not necessarily better; it's just a different path to reliance on God and not on self. The words of Elder Joseph the Hesychast came to mind then. In speaking about the different characters of people, he said, "First of all, my child, know that there are great differences from man to man, and monk to monk. There are souls with a soft character that are very easily persuaded. There are also souls with a tough character that are not subordinated so easily. They are as different as cotton is from iron. Cotton needs only to be rubbed with words, but iron requires fire and a furnace of temptation to be worked."

Those that need to "do violence" (matt 11:12) to themselves should condemn themselves in their thoughts and struggle to overcome their sins with tears, pleading for God to forgive them. For those who are naturally more sensitive, and especially those that struggle with certain forms of depression, they should try to mold their thoughts into a constant flowing stream of gratitude toward Christ and His mercy, His love, and His forbearance.

This second person should avoid focusing on his or her sins too much, so that he or she does not despair. We all need to see our sins, mistakes, and passions and confess them, feel sorry for them, but ultimately struggle with more resolve not to continue in them.
***********************************
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 04:23:06 PM by OrthoDisco »

Offline mcarmichael

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Paul says the law which was supposed to bring life I found to cause death. He also says salvation is a gift of God through faith not of works lest any man should boast.
We actually can't become righteous no matter how hard we try because we each have a sin nature. Even St Mary had a sin nature.

Ephesians 2:8-9(NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

We have to trust in Jesus to save us. If we died to the law it means we no longer try to obey it. Im not saying it must not be kept. If we really accepted Christs love and His person it would be natural to keep it. We acknowledge we cannot keep it. For whoever keeps the whole law except one point is guilty of all. Noone can even repent fully. The law demands perfect repentance but Christ only seeks us to grow in the fruits of the Spirit and He demands perfect repentance we can keep unlike what the law says. God puts His Holy Spirit in us and leads us to keep it perhaps the moment we trust in Him to save us. It is true the one on the rocky ground had some faith but it was not complete faith because if he really accepted Jesus he would accept tribulation. I don't know if it is genuine faith at all. We go through different phases of being different ground until we are saved bearing fruit and continue being saved bearing fruit. One may say I accepted Jesus I am saved but then you find that person does not bear any fruit or even desire to read the bible. Paul said God works in us to will and to do for His good pleasure. The person who is truly being saved a term orthodox accept is the good ground and this one would desire to read the word and He will grow with the milk of the word day by day.
You can never say I am saved. Only God knows our hearts and if we are being saved

If we truly ever accepted Jesus and were His own we would always try to always do what pleases Him because when we accepted Him we acknowledged that we accept His way or atleast we would come back to Him.

The water which Ezekiel mentions which will purify us is Jesus words as St Jerome thinks

Jerome: I will certainly not pour on them the waters of baptism but the waters of the teaching and the Word of God, and I will purify them of all their iniquities and from every single one of their idols and from the errors that they make in their hearts. Commentary on Ezekiel 11.36.16–38.

I think this means we can not save ourselves as Jesus said without Me you can do nothing but with Jesus as our teacher we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us
To fully trust in Christ I mean trust in Jesus alone is to believe He will give us a new heart desiring to hear all His words which will give us life and  and guarantee our righteous living so it is written man does not live by bread alone but by every word of God. We acknowledge the powerful and natural work of His words which He refers to as Spirit and they are life to make us righteous and so glory is given to Christ for making us desire to hear the word and for His words naturally changing us.

I think if we give heed to every word of God  (this also is not our work but a result of the new heart we get by prayer and being saved - being saved is not alien to orthodoxy only saved is)  which Jesus says gives life living righteously will become natural so glory is given to Christ not to ourselves. This may explain Ephesians 2:8-9 about not boasting. We keep the law through Christ and not ourselves so glory is given to Christ.  We trust in Christ to lead us to righteousness giving up reliance in our own strength but to give us a new heart that we may be inclined to good so Jesus will be the author and finisher of our faith. I refer to Philippians 1:6 to explain that what Christ starts in us He will complete only if we have the same faith. It may be hard to have that faith so we need to be renew our faith again.

Philippians 1:6(NKJV)
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

 This may explain trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths

Which is related to Jesus saying I thank You Father that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes.

Which is related to Jesus saying unless you receive the kingdom as little children (I think babies) you will not enter it.

Children are insignificant not having any works to boast about. So Jesus said if you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will God give good things and the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him. Children glory in their dad not themselves. They acknowledge all good comes from their dad


We do need to fully repent according to the new testament requirements but the law asks us to do more than what we can do. We know St Mary was without sin but do we think she kept the law perfectly? Only Jesus did I think

Edit: When I say trust in Jesus alone to save us I do not mean works are not necessary. But we must give up the idea we can produce fruits mostly to our credit. So it is said if anyone thinks he can repent without prayer is deceived by the devils because in prayer we get the new heart.

I have this weird feeling that it's off somewhere.

Offline mcarmichael

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I really think St. Paul was speaking very specifically of the Mosaic Law.

Consider this passage, from Ezekiel (18:21,22):

".... But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live."


Offline mikeforjesus

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I know mcarmichael we do need to be righteous but he wasn't only talking about the mosaic law
But also trying to think we can keep all the law in our own power and feeling we can not be saved if
we do not live say the last 2 days of our life completely without sin. Yet the bible says if a man lives one day yet he is not without sin

Offline mikeforjesus

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We do have to do works but we must not ever think it is enough like the wise virgins who never thought they had enough we must never boast we are more deserving of heaven than others. We believe in Christs blood alone to be saved yet work because we believe it is our duty for us to consider we really know him and accepted His love.
It is not bad to try to do good deeds yet we must be humble and these deeds do not stop us from being humble but if we are humble we atleast try to do it. The proud person says he is afraid and buries his talent. However we must still be humble which God can grant us.
Yet if we die believing in the Lord and we didn't do all His commandments or do good deeds in using our talents our faith is accounted for righteousness but we must really be sorry

"they were not self-righteous, but were willing that Jesus Christ should have all the glory of their salvation; they were convinced that the merits of Jesus Christ were to be apprehended only by faith; but yet were they as careful to maintain good works, as though they were to be justified by them: in short, their obedience flowed from love and gratitude, and was cheerful, constant, uniform, universal, like that obedience which the holy angels pay our Father in heaven"

That is a part from George Whitfield. Hate to quote a non orthodox since he says other things wrong. He is deceiving the people that if they just trust in Jesus blood no matter if they live in sin they will be saved when Jesus said he who overcomes will not be blotted from the book of life and many other things

http://www.the-highway.com/wise-foolish_virgins_Whitefield.html

« Last Edit: Today at 09:54:29 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mcarmichael

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I know mcarmichael we do need to be righteous but he wasn't only talking about the mosaic law
But also trying to think we can keep all the law in our own power and feeling we can not be saved if
we do not live say the last 2 days of our life completely without sin. Yet the bible says if a man lives one day yet he is not without sin

Yeah, I just heard that passage used recently, and it was brought to my attention that the person who said it got in trouble.
King Solomon said something similar, though. "For there is not a just man upon earth, who doeth good, and sinneth not." [KJV] Anyway, I don't feel at all qualified to help you today, Mike. Only I did think of John 6:29 ("Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'). And the Apostle Paul also wrote: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16, KJV)