OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 22, 2014, 07:25:44 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Submission to the Vatican and Married Priests: a blast from the past.  (Read 2215 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« on: July 24, 2009, 11:25:29 AM »

Looking for something else, I came across this interesting tidbit of history:
Quote
Religion: The Right to Marry
TIME Magazine, Monday, Dec. 06, 1937
Uniat churches, often called "Greek Catholic," are churches of the Near East recognizing the papacy and all Roman Catholic dogma. They are not to be confused with the Orthodox churches of the Near East which, likewise, are often lumped together as "Greek." Uniat churches exist because of a Catholic policy similar to the old trust builder's maxim: If you can't lick them, join them. The Roman Church absorbed numerous Orthodox faithful by allowing them to keep their customs, the discipline of their clergy, and their rites. To U. S. Catholics, Uniat Catholics of the Greek Rite were almost unknown until some 50 years ago. Then they appeared in districts where immigrants were arriving from Russia, the Ukraine, the Carpathian Mts. The newcomers claimed to be Catholic but they lived by the Julian Calendar (Christmas on January 7), segregated men and women in their churches, had married priests who gave them the bread & wine of the mass mixed together in a spoon.
With the growth of Greek Rite Catholicism in the U. S.—it now numbers 1,000,000 faithful with 300 churches—the Roman hierarchy instituted a subtle campaign to Latinize its conduct. Feeling that a minority of married priests might cause envy among celibate Catholic priests, Pope Pius X in 1907 issued an apostolic letter enjoining celibacy upon all priests laboring in the U. S. In the same year he established the first U. S. Greek Catholic diocese, sent Bishop Stephen Soter Ortynski to fill it and enforce the order. So incensed were the Uniats—claiming that by the Treaty of Ungvar in 1646 their clergy had been granted the right to marry before ordination — that Carpatho-Russian and Ukrainian members of the church snubbed the papal letter. It remained unenforced.

Last week in Pittsburgh this old battle was once more raging. Its centre was the person of the fat, gimlet-eyed, Carpathian-born bishop of the Carpatho-Russians, Rt. Rev. Basil Takach. Sent to the U. S. in 1924, Bishop Takach had won instant approval by ordaining married men to the priesthood. But in 1929 another apostolic letter was issued by the Vatican, this one forbidding bishops to appoint married priests to Greek Rite posts. Bishop Takach obeyed the order, but in Bridgeport, Conn., a priest dared not only oppose it but circularized Greek Catholic churches to stir up more opposition. This priest, a widower named Rev. Orestes Peter Chornock, was thereupon removed from his rich, comfortable Bridgeport parish, rusticated to a tiny church in Roebling, N. J.

Last week, Bishop Takach, sitting tight in his episcopal residence in smoky Munhall, Pa., had a full-fledged revolt on his hands. Father Chornock was named bishop of a new, dissident faction, to be called the Carpatho-Russian Greek Catholic Diocese of the Eastern Rite, U. S. A. Bishop-elect Chornock's diocese was born when 36 of Bishop Takach's priests petitioned him to appeal the second papal order. Father Chornock and five other clergy were excommunicated by the Vatican. By last week their faction had grown to include 40 parishes, drew 300 lay and clerical delegates to a convention in Pittsburgh.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,758558,00.html
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,797


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2009, 01:45:57 PM »

Fascinating! Thanks. That's the Chornock split in a nutshell (no mention of the similar Toth one about 40 years earlier) but who else sees poor journalism and an anti-Roman bias including in the physical description of Takach? Why not describe Chornock physically as well?
Logged

Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2009, 01:57:08 PM »

Fascinating! Thanks. That's the Chornock split in a nutshell (no mention of the similar Toth one about 40 years earlier) but who else sees poor journalism and an anti-Roman bias including in the physical description of Takach? Why not describe Chornock physically as well?

ME! ME! ME!
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,069



« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2009, 03:13:34 PM »

FYI the Father Chornock they are speaking of and the Carpatho-Russian Greek Catholic Diocese of the Eastern Rite, U. S. A. became the American Carpato-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese, a.k.a ACROD, aka Johnstown. 
Logged

Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2009, 03:05:49 PM »

Wow!  I had no idea that Father Chornock was stationed (as a punishment) at my old GC stomping grounds, St Nicholas in Roebling, NJ?  That is an interesting fact.  St Nick's is a very latinized GC church, complete with no icon screen, a marble altar, and (at one time) an altar rail.  I always wondered why this particular GC parish was so latinized and now I see that it probably has something to do with Fr C at one time being the pastor there.  I suppose that the good parishioners had to do their uttermost to renounce any ties with him and ACROD so uber latinization was probably the way to go.

Also, If memory serves me correct, Father Chornock was also sort of "rolly polly" himself.  I know that he, because of obvious latinized influence, used to dress very similar to an RC bishop even after having become Orthodox.  I have Seen a  photo of him standing next to Patriarch Athenagorious (sp) and the former looks like a Roman bishop.  Of course, this is not to knock the ACROD at all.  One of the reasons they did not go under Russian Church authorities was to preserve their own, unique customs (most of which are kind of latinized).  They felt that they could still be Orthodox yet preserve what they saw as authentic practices to their people, even if these were RCish to an extent.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,069



« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2009, 05:46:29 PM »

  Of course, this is not to knock the ACROD at all.  One of the reasons they did not go under Russian Church authorities was to preserve their own, unique customs (most of which are kind of latinized).  They felt that they could still be Orthodox yet preserve what they saw as authentic practices to their people, even if these were RCish to an extent.

It's not so much of latinization as it is unique practices that developed among their own peoples here and in the home land.  FYI it doesn't really matter what jurisdiction it is in say PA or NJ many Orthodox parishes all have hints or flat out complete Carpatho-Rusyn/Ukrainian small traditions. 
Logged

podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,759


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 02:06:16 PM »

I had the privilege of knowing Metropolitan Orestes (Chornock) of thrice blessed memory. In person he was 'larger than life' to a boy growing up in the 1950's in Pennsylvania. With an ever-present fine cigar and a kindly smile, his baritone voice bore witness to the strength of the Carpatho-Rusyn prostopenije (plain chant) and simple peasant faith of his flock, which he loved and served for over sixty-five years. He imparted that love and steadfastness in the seminarians who learned under his tutelage.   

I doubt that the Latinization of the Roebling, NJ Byzantine Rite parish was a consequence of Bishop Orestes' pastorate. While he was pastor of St. John's Greek Catholic Church in Bridgeport, CT, the parish had a magnificent iconostasis that was only removed after the Byzantine Catholics (through the Roman Bishop of Hartford) won final control of the property in court. The St. John's Orthodox Church that he helped found on Mill Hill Avenue in Bridgeport during the 1940's is a magnificent design that is truly Orthodox. (http://stjohnsonthehill.com/) Likewise, the Christ the Saviour Cathedral that he later built in Johnstown, PA  is Orthodox in conception and design.(http://www.acrod.org/organizations/cathedral/live) I would note that both churches do incorporate stylistic elements unique to the Carpatho-Rusyns (and the pre-Nikonian practices that they preserved) with a fair amount of inspiration from the original 19th century Christ the Saviour Cathedral that Stalin destroyed in Moscow.

Yes, there were Latinizations present in his Church when Father Orestes was consecrated as a Bishop in Constantinople in the Patriarchal Cathedral of St. George. Those influences have gradually disappeared over the years. One has to recognize that many of the Carpatho-Rusyn immigrants understood the Church in terms that were of the heart - not the head, and they regarded the Church as 'Our Church' (Nase cerkov). For many of them,  the first return to Orthodoxy under St. Alexis was marred by the rejection of legitimacy of any customs or practices that differentiated Rusyns from  Russians. Likewise, the Rusyns remembered bitterly the failed episcopacy of Bishop Adam and his treatment following the first world war. 

Most noteworthy,however, was the rejection of prostopenije (plain chant singing) as a Latinization by the Russian hierarchy. That was an absurd charge that has since been disproved. Indeed there are many similarities between prostopenije and early Kievian chants, including the old believer melodies.http://www.acrod.org/ministries/music/plainchant 

Given that history, during the celibacy and property battles with the Eastern (Greek) Catholic hierarchy, the slogan of the people was to be, "Neither to Moscow nor to Rome." The Ecumenical throne was ably represented in America at that time by a wise Archbishop, later Ecumenical Patriarch Athenogoras, of thrice-blessed memory, who recognized that the immediate repudiation of Latinization would result in further alienation and schism among the faithful. Hence, a gradual return to Orthodox norms was the prescribed course rather than a radical one. That caused many in the greater Orthodox world to look down upon Bishop Orestes and his flock during the period of transition.

The unflagging support of the Ecumenical Throne and its exarchs in America, most notably Archbishop Iakovos of thrice blessed memory and Archbishop Dimitrios has been a great source of strength and comfort for our faithful, our Bishops and our clergy.  ACROD, under the spiritual guidance of Metropolitan Orestes and his able successors, now Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos, has survived and the Church has prospered spiritually and materially. (http://www.beta.acrod.org/organizations/cyrilmethodioschurch)

My grandparents and parents were part of Father Chornock's movement to leave Eastern Catholicism and find a spiritual harbor in Orthodoxy. They were betrayed by the imperialism and colonialistic attitude of the Roman hierarchy in America and possessed a fear, brought over from the Old World. of the Russian bear and the unyielding attitude of some Russian hierarchs of that era. The Ecumenical Patriarchate provided the refuge and support that they needed to start anew.

To leave the beautiful temples that they built in the first decades of this century in cities across the Northeast and Midwest of the United States, to struggle to start anew and build again during the financial depths of the Great Depression, to see their families rendered asunder by the forces that they could little contain or fully understand took great courage and a deep abiding faith and love of the Church,the Saints, the Theotokos and Protectress and, most importantly,our Lord and Saviour.

To the memories of Metropolitan Orestes, his successors, his clergy and his people who have since departed this earthly existence, I can only stand in humble awe and repeat the ancient prayer of the faithful heard at ordination - Axios! Axios! Axios! Eternal be their Memories! Vicnaja Jim Pamjat!
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2010, 02:45:29 AM »

Wow!  You knew Metropolitan Orestes (Chornock)?  You sure were lucky to have been able to have that privilege.  From what I've heard, he seemed like a very friendly man.  A bishop who was both easy to get along with and accessible to his flock.  He was sadly vilified by the Greek Catholic Church in this country and they have sought to slander his good name, even to this day.

Tell me, is there a movement in ACROD to have him glorified?  Are there any pictures or Ikon's of him which can be obtained for veneration by the faithful?

Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,759


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2010, 08:59:43 PM »

As ACROD is under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch, any movement towards glorification would fall under their purview, I would think. Nevertheless, it is a thought that has crossed the minds of many of us who were fortunate to have been in his presence. I will suggest to the ACROD webmaster that we develop a photo collection of the Metropolitan's life and place it online. I just want to add that he was a frequent visitor to my parent's homes as he would make pastoral visits to our parish every year or so while his health permitted, as my father was one of his priests. I have been honored to be in the presence of many hierarchs and public officials over my career and +Orestes was one of the most unpretentious, accessible people you would ever know. My father would say that if he had a fault, it was that he was too trusting in others. Not a bad fault to have....In many ways he reminded me of Metropolitan Maximos of the Metropolis of Pittsburgh in how he could connect to the average person, man, woman or child.  Father Lawrence Barriger's book, "Good Victory" contains a good background. It was published some years ago by Holy Cross Press and may still be available.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2010, 11:09:38 PM »

Wow!  You knew Metropolitan Orestes (Chornock)?  You sure were lucky to have been able to have that privilege.  From what I've heard, he seemed like a very friendly man.  A bishop who was both easy to get along with and accessible to his flock.  He was sadly vilified by the Greek Catholic Church in this country and they have sought to slander his good name, even to this day.
Occupational hazard: Bishop Nathaniel is of the same character, and he was denounced from the pulpit I understand when he embraced Orthodoxy.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,990


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2010, 12:02:22 AM »

He was sadly vilified by the Greek Catholic Church in this country and they have sought to slander his good name, even to this day.



Hardly.  St. Alexis, Metropolitan Orestes, Bishop John are remembered sympathetically by most these days.  Metropolitan Judson of blessed memory and Metropolitan Nicholas worked hard to remind our Churches that we are one people and promote reconciliation between us.

As for Bishop Nathaniel and Archbishop Job, I have never heard a bad word said about either of them from any Greek Catholic hierarch.  A Byzantine Catholic priest was front and center at Archbishop Job's funeral in Black Lick.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,759


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2010, 12:56:47 AM »

Deacon Lance is correct. While in the dark days of Bishop Takach and the 'borba' (church wars) Bishop Orestes may have been reviled by the Eastern Catholics, it was no more so than the the enmity which those who returned to Orthodoxy felt and expressed for Bishop Takach.  Today there is a mutual respect between the Byzantine eparchy's hierarchs and Metropolitan Nicholas. I know that some on this board will not understand how that could be or accept that there can be any degree of understanding between us. I respectfully disagre. I understand that the actions which occurred in Europe during the period of communist oppression and following the collapse of the Soviet Union have caused great pain within those communities. However, acknowledging that does not diminish the reality  of the pain, suffering and anger that occurred in American community after American community in the 30's and 40's. I can only say that after a painful journey of many decades, we have come to understand within the American Carpatho-Rusyn community that we while we firmly disagree on certain matters of faith, we share a bond of culture, history and family. My late father would often opine that one of the reasons that St. Alexis, Metropolitan Orestes and others are remembered sympathetically by the Byzantine Catholic Church these days is because their efforts and struggles probably prevented the total Latinization of that Church in the United States by the Latin hierarchy.
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2010, 03:17:27 AM »

It is understandable that the Carpatho Russian people would have solidarity with eachother because, after all they are one people and culture, regardless of religion.  I hope that one distant day, full unity will be restored between the divided Churches.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.088 seconds with 42 queries.