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Author Topic: I don't understand the Evangelical mindset - never have, never will!!  (Read 44034 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2009, 05:47:30 PM »


Quote
Interestingly, the impression imposes itself in reverse as well. Reading some - not all - of the posts on many of these threads, I get a strong impression that many Orthodox people in America are "a different kettle of fish" from many Orthodox in Albania and Kosova/Old Serbia.
My impression, as well. There is something very different about Orthodoxy i much of the New World.
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« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2009, 06:12:09 PM »


Quote
Interestingly, the impression imposes itself in reverse as well. Reading some - not all - of the posts on many of these threads, I get a strong impression that many Orthodox people in America are "a different kettle of fish" from many Orthodox in Albania and Kosova/Old Serbia.
My impression, as well. There is something very different about Orthodoxy i much of the New World.
please explain.
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« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2009, 06:42:02 PM »

perhaps the fact that we ... have not suffered under a government that was actively trying to oppress and suppress believers and their religion "by any means necessary" might have something to do with a difference in attitude?

Regarding Albania, yes; but not Serbia, where the sense of national identity and being Orthodox are very closely and deeply woven together.

My guess would focus more on the fact that in the USA (and Britain) you make a personal decision to become Orthodox because you are persuaded of the arguments for its being the true Faith and Church, whereas in Serbia it is an integral part of the culture and does not require that same step of obedience to personal conviction. But as you say, "just a guess".

In the USA it costs you something to be Orthodox; in Serbia it costs you a great deal not to be.

I think much of this is true of Greece too - GreekChef would know - but I cannot say firsthand, as my visits to Greece 1981-2009 have been either for holiday, or when religious have been amongst Evangelicals and Pentecostals, whom I have found to be warm, loving and hospitable people, which has contributed significantly to my love of that beautiful country.

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« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2009, 07:20:26 PM »

perhaps the fact that we ... have not suffered under a government that was actively trying to oppress and suppress believers and their religion "by any means necessary" might have something to do with a difference in attitude?

Regarding Albania, yes; but not Serbia, where the sense of national identity and being Orthodox are very closely and deeply woven together.

My guess would focus more on the fact that in the USA (and Britain) you make a personal decision to become Orthodox because you are persuaded of the arguments for its being the true Faith and Church, whereas in Serbia it is an integral part of the culture and does not require that same step of obedience to personal conviction. But as you say, "just a guess".

In the USA it costs you something to be Orthodox; in Serbia it costs you a great deal not to be.

I think much of this is true of Greece too - GreekChef would know - but I cannot say firsthand, as my visits to Greece 1981-2009 have been either for holiday, or when religious have been amongst Evangelicals and Pentecostals, whom I have found to be warm, loving and hospitable people, which has contributed significantly to my love of that beautiful country.

I think there is some truth to this. Europe as a whole (Eastern and Western) has taken her Christian heritage for granted, and so I think there is less of a "zeal" to follow Christ. I think this is why you are seeing the spread of Islam throughout Europe. American religion on the whole is on a decline, and if we are not careful, we too shall see our Christian heritage threatened.
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« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2009, 07:35:54 PM »


Quote
Interestingly, the impression imposes itself in reverse as well. Reading some - not all - of the posts on many of these threads, I get a strong impression that many Orthodox people in America are "a different kettle of fish" from many Orthodox in Albania and Kosova/Old Serbia.
My impression, as well. There is something very different about Orthodoxy i much of the New World.
please explain.

Like, for instnce, an amount of self-consciousness about doing "Orthodox" stuff in an "Orthodox" way etc, that you wouldn't find in the Old World.
Actually, contrary to popular belief in Romania, at least, priests would talk, in churches, more about being a Christian than about being "Orthodox"
Here in America I hear a lot of " Unlike Protestants/Catholics we, the Orthodox should do this and that..."
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 07:38:18 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2009, 04:11:07 AM »

in Romania, at least, priests would talk, in churches, more about being a Christian than about being "Orthodox"

A question and a comment from this post and then the wider thread:

1) Romania (the above quote): What influence has "the Army of the Lord" had in Romanian Orthodoxy?

2) I joined the forum in order to learn more about Orthodoxy, but I seem to be getting a 'bonus' - learning a good deal more about American Evangelicalism as well!
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« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2009, 10:21:16 AM »

Regarding Albania, yes; but not Serbia, where the sense of national identity and being Orthodox are very closely and deeply woven together.

My guess would focus more on the fact that in the USA (and Britain) you make a personal decision to become Orthodox because you are persuaded of the arguments for its being the true Faith and Church, whereas in Serbia it is an integral part of the culture and does not require that same step of obedience to personal conviction. But as you say, "just a guess".

In the USA it costs you something to be Orthodox; in Serbia it costs you a great deal not to be.


According to wiki, it cost some Serbs a great deal to be Orthodox: "...the Serbian Orthodox Church suffered severely from persecutions by the occupying powers and the rabidly anti-Serbian Ustaše regime of Independent State of Croatia, which sought to create a "Croatian Orthodox Church" which Orthodox Serbs were forced to join. Many Serbs were killed during the war; bishops and priests of the Serbian Orthodox Church were singled out for persecution, and many Orthodox churches were damaged or destroyed.

After the war the Church was suppressed by the Socialist government of Josip Broz Tito, which viewed it with suspicion due to the Church's links with the exiled Serbian monarchy and the nationalist Chetnik movement. Along with other ecclesiastical institutions of all denominations, the Church was subject to strict controls by the Yugoslav state, which prohibited the teaching of religion in schools, confiscated Church property and discouraged religious activity among the population.

The gradual demise of Yugoslav socialism and the rise of rival nationalist movements during the 1980s also led to a marked religious revival throughout Yugoslavia, not least in Serbia."
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« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2009, 11:25:00 AM »

it cost some Serbs a great deal to be Orthodox... during the 1980s also led to a marked religious revival throughout Yugoslavia, not least in Serbia.

Yes. What I meant was that it costs Americans something to become (or zealously remain) Orthodox because it marks you out as different. Croatian nationalism and political Communism were alien systems which for a time wielded power over some or all Serbs, but surely that only drove them deeper into loyalty and identity with their "Pravoslavna Crkva", sometimes called the Serb religion. Any philosophy or religion, even atheism, which is oppressed by a powerful élite will attract hardship for its adherents. That's not the same as an American Protestant converting to Orthodoxy or an Orthodox Serb becoming Baptist. That's the kind of cost I was referring to: making a person different from the majority, not making him more solidly identified with it.

I guess what I wrote was somewhat elliptical. Sorry.
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« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2009, 11:28:40 AM »

in Romania, at least, priests would talk, in churches, more about being a Christian than about being "Orthodox"

A question and a comment from this post and then the wider thread:

1) Romania (the above quote): What influence has "the Army of the Lord" had in Romanian Orthodoxy?

2) I joined the forum in order to learn more about Orthodoxy, but I seem to be getting a 'bonus' - learning a good deal more about American Evangelicalism as well!
I would say that the most obvious influence "Oastea Domnului/The Lord's Army" has had on the Romanian Orthodoxy, at large, is the dissemination of their songs, mostly composed by Traian Dorz. I think one would hardly encounter a parish no, where some of their songs are not sung, either at Liturgy, at the moment of Communion,after the Liturgy or after Vespers.
I myself kind of grew up with Traian Dorz' songs and will always love many of them, especially the Paschal ones.
In some places thou, some unoficial factions of the Lord's Army have separated from the Orthodox Church and have been instrumental in leading people away from the Church into the sects.
But overall, I would say that they did a good work at presenting Orthodoxy in a simple manner to the peasantry, especially and alphabetizing people into the rudimens of the Christian faith.
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« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2009, 05:58:33 AM »

I think it was on this thread that we commented on the strange phenomenon of British people speaking or singing in a fake American accent when it's about religion. What do you think of this comment I got by e-mail this morning from an Albanian Evangelical? -

Albania is heavily influenced by the daft Americans ... And the church too (evangelicalism) is even more heavily influenced by its mostly American missionaries. In fact, so much so, that in many churches Albanians speak in English even among one-another, simply because they are taking to imitate their American "idols" only too monkeyishly.

(Forgive the word 'daft': I merely quote.)
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« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2009, 10:58:53 AM »

I think it was on this thread that we commented on the strange phenomenon of British people speaking or singing in a fake American accent when it's about religion. What do you think of this comment I got by e-mail this morning from an Albanian Evangelical? -

Albania is heavily influenced by the daft Americans ... And the church too (evangelicalism) is even more heavily influenced by its mostly American missionaries. In fact, so much so, that in many churches Albanians speak in English even among one-another, simply because they are taking to imitate their American "idols" only too monkeyishly.

(Forgive the word 'daft': I merely quote.)


Reason #49582 why American Evangelicals should just stay home.
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« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2009, 11:02:11 AM »

I think it was on this thread that we commented on the strange phenomenon of British people speaking or singing in a fake American accent when it's about religion. What do you think of this comment I got by e-mail this morning from an Albanian Evangelical? -

Albania is heavily influenced by the daft Americans ... And the church too (evangelicalism) is even more heavily influenced by its mostly American missionaries. In fact, so much so, that in many churches Albanians speak in English even among one-another, simply because they are taking to imitate their American "idols" only too monkeyishly.

(Forgive the word 'daft': I merely quote.)


Reason #49582 why American Evangelicals should just stay home.

LOL!!!! laugh
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« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2009, 05:54:16 PM »

^Brevity is the soul of wit (and wisdom).
Well done!
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« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2009, 07:03:41 PM »

Evangelical mindset: Get the "word" out regardless of the context or situation.
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« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2009, 09:10:47 PM »

In the USA it costs you something to be Orthodox; in Serbia it costs you a great deal not to be.

I'm going to have to agree.
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« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2009, 12:10:46 AM »

Here's something I don't understand about the Ev. Mindset...

How can an Ev. Website..source:http://www.alliancenet.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID307086_CHID798774_CIID1411364,00.html

Claim to the Ecumenical Councils and still not regard Orthodoxy as the spring from which they draw their water?!
You can't have it both ways you know! The same people at these Ecumenical Councils would have easily excommunicated these guys for starting up their own religions (denominations) if pursued.
Why would Calvinists, Baptists, Lutherans and such even bring up the Ecumenical councils in a declaration?! You can't chop down a tree, and plant a new one in its place without checking for roots!

Quote:
" Evangelical churches today are increasingly dominated by the spirit of this age rather than by the Spirit of Christ. As evangelicals, we call ourselves to repent of this sin and to recover the historic Christian faith.

In the course of history words change. In our day this has happened to the word "evangelical." In the past it served as a bond of unity between Christians from a wide diversity of church traditions. Historic evangelicalism was confessional. It embraced the essential truths of Christianity as those were defined by the great ecumenical councils of the church. In addition, evangelicals also shared a common heritage in the "solas" of the sixteenth century Protestant Reformation."

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« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2009, 02:45:19 AM »

Claim to the Ecumenical Councils and still not regard Orthodoxy as the spring from which they draw their water?!
You can't have it both ways you know! The same people at these Ecumenical Councils would have easily excommunicated these guys for starting up their own religions (denominations) if pursued.

Don't the Orthodox selectively determine which councils are binding and authoritative in retrospect (for example, ignoring much of the Council of Jerusalem in 1672)?  How is what the evangelicals are doing any different?

Just so we are clear, I'm playing the devil's advocate.  I don't think that they are exactly the same, just an interesting point of consideration.
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« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2009, 02:52:04 PM »

Claim to the Ecumenical Councils and still not regard Orthodoxy as the spring from which they draw their water?!
You can't have it both ways you know! The same people at these Ecumenical Councils would have easily excommunicated these guys for starting up their own religions (denominations) if pursued.

Don't the Orthodox selectively determine which councils are binding and authoritative in retrospect (for example, ignoring much of the Council of Jerusalem in 1672)?  How is what the evangelicals are doing any different?

Just so we are clear, I'm playing the devil's advocate.  I don't think that they are exactly the same, just an interesting point of consideration.
The Council of Jerusalem was not one of the 7 - It was not Ecumenical.
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« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2009, 08:38:49 PM »

The Council of Jerusalem was not one of the 7 - It was not Ecumenical.

Really?!?  You're going to play that card?
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« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2009, 11:06:46 PM »

The Council of Jerusalem was not one of the 7 - It was not Ecumenical.

Really?!?  You're going to play that card?
Alveus, you bring up an interesting point, but yah, that's my thought. And I think Ortyhodoxy has a perogative that the EV. don't. We have the roots, the Fathers, the Tradition - all of which lead the Church to make decisions that are more in step with preservation of the faith. The Ev. Mindset is such that preservation is not their motive. "Hunting and Pecking" is.
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« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2009, 04:19:52 PM »

We have the roots, the Fathers, the Tradition - all of which lead the Church to make decisions that are more in step with preservation of the faith. The Ev. Mindset is such that preservation is not their motive. "Hunting and Pecking" is.

I will agree with this, but falling back on the "seven infallible councils" is as much a cop out as anything else, as Orthodox Christians selectively apply the canons of those councils, and they also argue over how many councils are ecumenical.  Some consider certain non-ecumenical councils binding to the whole Church.  There's still a lot of picking and choosing going on, but I also agree that the main difference is that Orthodoxy is in a constant dialogue with the past, trying her best to preserve the Truth once delivered.
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« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2009, 07:22:09 PM »


Reason #49582 why American Evangelicals should just stay home.

Gee this sounds so familiar somehow.   Grin laugh

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« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2009, 07:29:07 PM »

Since this thread is about the American Evangelical mindset, I must say that on our recent trip to Chicago, I was SHOCKED by the number of STUPID evangelical billboards along the highway.  They were everything from anti-abortion to following the ten commandments to a horrendous one about creationism that was SO STUPID that my poor (patient) husband had to listen to me complain (for at least 120 miles) about how it's this kind of crap that makes Christians look like idiots in this country!

Now honestly, how can anyone seriously think that a billboard is going to change someone's mind about abortion, evolution, or following the ten commandments?  I mean really?  I just don't understand that mentality.
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« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2009, 04:57:39 AM »

how can anyone seriously think that a billboard is going to change someone's mind about abortion, evolution, or following the ten commandments?  

Give a few more details about the wording or artwork of the billboards, and I may be able to go some way to explaining it. (Note: I did not say 'justifying' it or 'agreeing with' it.)
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« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2009, 11:55:23 AM »

how can anyone seriously think that a billboard is going to change someone's mind about abortion, evolution, or following the ten commandments?  

Give a few more details about the wording or artwork of the billboards, and I may be able to go some way to explaining it. (Note: I did not say 'justifying' it or 'agreeing with' it.)

While I can certainly relate to Presbytera's frustrations (you should see some of the bumper stickers people have on their cars!! "If car is found vacant it's because the rapture has come" Puh-lease! Roll Eyes) I think the people who post them have good intentions.

And who knows, maybe a woman driving to get an abortion clinic may think twice if she sees the right billboard with the right message.

I must admit, I do like the Billboards that say "Don't make me come down there!" -God"

They make me chuckle.  laugh
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« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2009, 11:56:09 AM »

(Miss you, handmaiden!  Can't wait to see you soon!!!)

I just saw this today -- miss you too! Only three more weeks!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2009, 04:34:56 PM »

Ugh!

Okay, so I just received an email from a friend of mine who is Baptist asking for prayers for her father who fell and broke his hip and needs surgery. (His name is Fred, may the Lord have mercy on him!)

While I have no problem praying for her father, this is what got me: "Dad is Roman Catholic, please pray that he knows God in his heart."

Now I happen to know her parents go to Mass every week, and are devout in their faith. This last line just urks me to no end! Who is she to judge that God is NOT in his heart?!

Sorry, just had to let off some steam.

Maureen
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« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2009, 04:45:07 PM »

Ugh!

Okay, so I just received an email from a friend of mine who is Baptist asking for prayers for her father who fell and broke his hip and needs surgery. (His name is Fred, may the Lord have mercy on him!)

While I have no problem praying for her father, this is what got me: "Dad is Roman Catholic, please pray that he knows God in his heart."

Now I happen to know her parents go to Mass every week, and are devout in their faith. This last line just urks me to no end! Who is she to judge that God is NOT in his heart?!

Sorry, just had to let off some steam.

Maureen
Why don't you write a nice letter back, saying you will pray for him for his ailments and pray for her hardness of heart. Grin
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« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2009, 04:57:35 PM »

Ugh!

Okay, so I just received an email from a friend of mine who is Baptist asking for prayers for her father who fell and broke his hip and needs surgery. (His name is Fred, may the Lord have mercy on him!)

While I have no problem praying for her father, this is what got me: "Dad is Roman Catholic, please pray that he knows God in his heart."

Now I happen to know her parents go to Mass every week, and are devout in their faith. This last line just urks me to no end! Who is she to judge that God is NOT in his heart?!

Sorry, just had to let off some steam.

Maureen

This attitude drives me crazy too. I once invited someone from my former faith to my parish for a service. Afterwards he said to me, "All this is well and good-but as I looked around me, I couldn't help but wonder how many of these people are actually living the life of a true Christian?"  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2009, 07:10:26 PM »

Ugh!

Okay, so I just received an email from a friend of mine who is Baptist asking for prayers for her father who fell and broke his hip and needs surgery. (His name is Fred, may the Lord have mercy on him!)

While I have no problem praying for her father, this is what got me: "Dad is Roman Catholic, please pray that he knows God in his heart."

Now I happen to know her parents go to Mass every week, and are devout in their faith. This last line just urks me to no end! Who is she to judge that God is NOT in his heart?!

Sorry, just had to let off some steam.

Maureen

This attitude drives me crazy too. I once invited someone from my former faith to my parish for a service. Afterwards he said to me, "All this is well and good-but as I looked around me, I couldn't help but wonder how many of these people are actually living the life of a true Christian?"  Roll Eyes

My Protestant friends and colleagues often ask the same question about their own congregations. I would bet that many of their preachers actually sermonize on this very issue. IMHO, the problem is not their concern with this but the way they express it: instead of asking "how many of these people are trying to live the life of a true Christian" they ask how many are "actually living" a Christian life--a true one to boot. They cannot help themselves because often their view of salvation is skewed; they look at it as a past event rather than a process. I think remarks like this are an outstanding opportunity to gently steer our Protestant brothers toward the True Faith.
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« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2009, 07:21:27 PM »

Well Orthodox don't express their faith during services like most protestants are used to. What they see as visible (signing of the cross, bowing, etc.) seems to them as non-spontaneous (forced?) and overtly ritualistic. For many of them, a "true" sign of the Spirit is raising of the hands, dancing, clapping, or shouting.
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« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2009, 07:22:27 PM »

Well Orthodox don't express their faith during services like most protestants are used to. What they see as visible (signing of the cross, bowing, etc.) seems to them as non-spontaneous (forced?) and overtly ritualistic. For many of them, a "true" sign of the Spirit is raising of the hands, dancing, clapping, or shouting.
I KNOW!!!! I just had this conversation with a protestant collegue today.
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« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2009, 08:17:50 PM »

Well Orthodox don't express their faith during services like most protestants are used to. What they see as visible (signing of the cross, bowing, etc.) seems to them as non-spontaneous (forced?) and overtly ritualistic. For many of them, a "true" sign of the Spirit is raising of the hands, dancing, clapping, or shouting.

Coming from a charismatic background I can attest to this. It is hard for my old charismatic friends to believe I mean as much in signing myself as I did when I used to raise my hands simply because there is not as much overt emotion I suppose.
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« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2009, 08:43:19 PM »

Well Orthodox don't express their faith during services like most protestants are used to. What they see as visible (signing of the cross, bowing, etc.) seems to them as non-spontaneous (forced?) and overtly ritualistic. For many of them, a "true" sign of the Spirit is raising of the hands, dancing, clapping, or shouting.

No, this isn't the type of faith in which I was raised. What the friend meant was, judging by the appearance of the people in church, he wouldn't be surprised if they smoked, drank, fornicated, and, in general, lived very loosely away from church and then just put on a pious show during the service. He meant that he was afraid the service seemed fine (even though it was far more ritualistic than what he was used to), but he was afraid the people didn't actually live a pure and holy way during the week...
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« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2009, 08:49:38 PM »

Well Orthodox don't express their faith during services like most protestants are used to. What they see as visible (signing of the cross, bowing, etc.) seems to them as non-spontaneous (forced?) and overtly ritualistic. For many of them, a "true" sign of the Spirit is raising of the hands, dancing, clapping, or shouting.

No, this isn't the type of faith in which I was raised. What the friend meant was, judging by the appearance of the people in church, he wouldn't be surprised if they smoked, drank, fornicated, and, in general, lived very loosely away from church and then just put on a pious show during the service. He meant that he was afraid the service seemed fine (even though it was far more ritualistic than what he was used to), but he was afraid the people didn't actually live a pure and holy way during the week...
That's the mindset that drove me far from the church of my youth. (1st Baptist)
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« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2009, 09:21:20 PM »



No, this isn't the type of faith in which I was raised. What the friend meant was, judging by the appearance of the people in church, he wouldn't be surprised if they smoked, drank, fornicated, and, in general, lived very loosely away from church and then just put on a pious show during the service. He meant that he was afraid the service seemed fine (even though it was far more ritualistic than what he was used to), but he was afraid the people didn't actually live a pure and holy way during the week...
[/quote]

I see this mindset quite a bit in individuals and sometimes groups. I would like to ask them first why'd they make such offhanded blanket remark. Second, why should anyone else assume that people like your friend are so pious.

On youtube there is a guying gaining a degree of online fame by recording and posting his street preaching. Now let me say that his targets often do need to hear the Gospel (drunks, people at gay pride ralleys) but others are just un assuming passerby. He seems to think that by yelling at people he is serving the Lord.

Now back to my earlier point. This guy is considerably overweight. However he never seems to consider that he isn't treating his body like a temple.

It is so easy to blame other people. Archbishop made the point once that when we claim to having received God's punishment, we often mean that it's those 'other' people. 911 and Huricane Katrina happened because of those "other" people's sins. Never our own.
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« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2009, 09:27:35 PM »

^^ I agree. My friend's church is a proponent of the idea that the church should be "pure", i.e. membership is only for those who are serious and 'sold out' to Jesus and live a life "victorious" over sin, which means: no smoking, no drinking, no fornication, no adultery,no divorce, no remarriage, and, a good, consistent Christian witness, etc. They simply cannot grasp the concept of a church which practises infant baptism and allows all sorts of loose and immoral people to be part of the membership. They are totally against "nominal" christians.

What I replied to my friend at the time was simply this: but shouldn't our first concern be our own life, our own sins? He did agree, but I knew in my heart he will never change his mindset. Never in a million years.
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« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2009, 09:33:50 PM »

But again how does he knows who is genuine and who is just putting on a show?
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« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2009, 11:51:14 PM »

Well Orthodox don't express their faith during services like most protestants are used to. What they see as visible (signing of the cross, bowing, etc.) seems to them as non-spontaneous (forced?) and overtly ritualistic. For many of them, a "true" sign of the Spirit is raising of the hands, dancing, clapping, or shouting.

No, this isn't the type of faith in which I was raised. What the friend meant was, judging by the appearance of the people in church, he wouldn't be surprised if they smoked, drank, fornicated, and, in general, lived very loosely away from church and then just put on a pious show during the service. He meant that he was afraid the service seemed fine (even though it was far more ritualistic than what he was used to), but he was afraid the people didn't actually live a pure and holy way during the week...

I wonder what gives people this impression?
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« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2009, 11:54:08 PM »

^^ I agree. My friend's church is a proponent of the idea that the church should be "pure", i.e. membership is only for those who are serious and 'sold out' to Jesus and live a life "victorious" over sin, which means: no smoking, no drinking, no fornication, no adultery,no divorce, no remarriage, and, a good, consistent Christian witness, etc.

Wow, sounds like a hall of saints to me!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2009, 11:57:53 PM »

Quote
I wonder what gives people this impression?


It was a special service. The church was jammed with people, many of whom don't often frequent the church. Oftentimes, alcohol or cigarette smoke can be smelled on people's breath in church, especially when you're standing together very closely. Some of the guys looked "wild" no doubt-long hair etc. I don't think about these things very much anymore, but I grew up in this world, and so I knew exactly to what and how my friend was reacting.
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« Reply #86 on: December 10, 2009, 10:52:35 AM »

her parents go to Mass every week...Who is she to judge that God is NOT in his heart?!
Maureen

Surely praying that someone should know the Lord is not the same thing as assuming they don't. And surely it is entirely possible to attend any church regularly without actually knowing the Lord of the Church. The prayer seems entirely proper - and indeed I often pray (especially when I am going to preach somewhere) that I will be able to be a step in people's coming to know the Lord where that is needed, without assuming beforehand that they do not already. The thought behind the prayer is, "Lord, if they do not already know you..."
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« Reply #87 on: December 10, 2009, 11:00:35 AM »

I would bet that many of their preachers actually sermonize on this very issue.

I plead guilty to that!

Quote
IMHO, the problem is... their view of salvation ... they look at it as a past event rather than a process.

You are near the truth here. The "problem" (let us rather say explanation) is indeed our view of salvation, and we do indeed see it as a past event; but also as an ongoing process, and as a final consummation in the glory. What we Evangelical preachers are (to use your word) 'sermonizing' about is whether people have already experienced the past event. It does not mean we see no need for the other two aspects of salvation (process; finalisation), but you can't have the second two parts without the first. We want to ensure that people have taken that first step, or experienced that first work in their souls. (And of course we want them also to persist in a life of discipleship and sanctification, but those are different themes, which in fact we also sermonize about.)
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« Reply #88 on: December 10, 2009, 11:01:23 AM »

her parents go to Mass every week...Who is she to judge that God is NOT in his heart?!
Maureen

Surely praying that someone should know the Lord is not the same thing as assuming they don't. And surely it is entirely possible to attend any church regularly without actually knowing the Lord of the Church. The prayer seems entirely proper - and indeed I often pray (especially when I am going to preach somewhere) that I will be able to be a step in people's coming to know the Lord where that is needed, without assuming beforehand that they do not already. The thought behind the prayer is, "Lord, if they do not already know you..."

Here's the issue, though: the person specifically mentioned being Roman Catholic, as though that by itself was a reason to question the person's salvation. Oh no, not... [cue scary music] Catholic! I mean, it would be strange if someone said "Dad is a shoe salesman, please pray that he knows God in his heart" or "Dad likes to garden, please pray that he knows God in his heart."  But when someone says "Dad is Roman Catholic, please pray that he knows God in his heart," it means something, and that something is the implication that the person might not "be saved" (whatever that means) because they are Catholic. That's how I take it anyway, as a former Protestant who spent time in a very anti-Catholic/Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2009, 11:04:10 AM »

the person specifically mentioned being Roman Catholic, as though that by itself was a reason to question the person's salvation. ... the implication that the person might not "be saved" (whatever that means) because they are Catholic.

I think you are right in this.
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