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Author Topic: Orthodox revised Book of Common Prayer  (Read 8764 times) Average Rating: 0
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samkim
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« on: November 14, 2009, 04:22:43 AM »

http://www.andrewespress.com/bcp.html

$15 (that includes shipping!).
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2009, 10:15:00 PM »

I'm debating on getting this. I guess I have until December 13 to decide though so I can get it at the cheap price. Do you have it? Is this what the Western Rite use then?
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2009, 11:52:22 PM »

I'm debating on getting this. I guess I have until December 13 to decide though so I can get it at the cheap price. Do you have it? Is this what the Western Rite use then?

It's still shipping, but yeah, I ordered it. Not sure if WR orthodox use it commonly.
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2009, 01:10:13 AM »

From my experiences with WRO (limited as they may be), they do use Dunstan's Plainsong Psalter and, to a lesser extent, the Monastic Diurnal.  I think that for the Rite of St. Gregory and the Rite of St. Tikho, the WRO of the Antiochian Archdiocese use something published by the archdiocese.  It is a black, pretty plain book. I'll ask a priest I know.
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2009, 01:16:07 AM »

From my experiences with WRO (limited as they may be), they do use Dunstan's Plainsong Psalter and, to a lesser extent, the Monastic Diurnal.  I think that for the Rite of St. Gregory and the Rite of St. Tikho, the WRO of the Antiochian Archdiocese use something published by the archdiocese.  It is a black, pretty plain book. I'll ask a priest I know.

The Orthodox Missal.  Yes, it's the basic text, but I've always seen it supplimented.
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2009, 11:36:07 AM »

From my experiences with WRO (limited as they may be), they do use Dunstan's Plainsong Psalter and, to a lesser extent, the Monastic Diurnal.  I think that for the Rite of St. Gregory and the Rite of St. Tikho, the WRO of the Antiochian Archdiocese use something published by the archdiocese.  It is a black, pretty plain book. I'll ask a priest I know.

The Orthodox Missal.  Yes, it's the basic text, but I've always seen it supplimented.

Where can I get one?
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2009, 11:49:12 AM »

From my experiences with WRO (limited as they may be), they do use Dunstan's Plainsong Psalter and, to a lesser extent, the Monastic Diurnal.  I think that for the Rite of St. Gregory and the Rite of St. Tikho, the WRO of the Antiochian Archdiocese use something published by the archdiocese.  It is a black, pretty plain book. I'll ask a priest I know.

The Orthodox Missal.  Yes, it's the basic text, but I've always seen it supplimented.

Where can I get one?

Good question. I got mine through personal channels.  I'd email a WRO parish.
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2009, 12:00:57 PM »

Forgive my ignorance. What is it that makes this revised edition Orthodox? I'd be interested in getting a copy.
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2009, 12:51:49 PM »

Forgive my ignorance. What is it that makes this revised edition Orthodox? I'd be interested in getting a copy.

There are two sets of changes, one that makes it Orthodox, and the other pastoral reasons.

The first includes things where the lex orandi, lex credendi is applied: e.g. where the priest invokes the "merits of the saints buried here" (i.e. the relics), it is changed to him invoking the "prayers of the saints buried here."

The other, in the Antiochian usage, is the epiclesis of St. John Chrysostom is inserted in addition to the old Roman epiclesis Supplices Te Rogamus, and the prayer of St. John Chrysostom before communion.  The reason for that is pastoral reasons: clearing up any doubts the Eastern Orthodox have about the sufficiency of the WRO DL, and in impress on the WRO the Orthodox understanding of the epiclesis and real presence.

Other than that, there is not much difference: I once went through the whole WRO Missal with the preVatican II Roman Missal and the 1928 BCP-ECUSA.  There were few differences.
If you just want to see the DL, its available online:
http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.pdf
http://www.reu.org/public/liturgys/litidx.htm

And elsewhere, google "Liturgy of St. Tikhon/St. Gregory."


For an interesting WRO account of what Protestants think of the rite:
http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/07/protestantism-vs-anglican-missal.html

And the Antiochian Vicarate. It seems they got a few more parishes this year.
http://www.antiochian.org/Western-Rite
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2009, 04:07:59 PM »

If you just want to see the DL, its available online:
http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.pdf

It's worth to mention that while the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow is the AWRV's "orthodoxized" version of the BCP rite, the Divine Liturgy of the English Rite (a.k.a. the English Liturgy) is the ROCOR's one. It was published in the Saint Colman Prayer Book (which can be ordered from here).
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2009, 05:32:24 PM »

We primarily use the St Andrew service book. The founders of our church were deeply involved in its publishing. (St Michael Orthodox (western rite))

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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2009, 05:41:44 PM »

A useful OrthodoxWiki article: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Service_Books
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2009, 05:53:43 PM »

So the Mass in this revised BCP is essentially "the Liturgy of St. Tikhon"?

What about the other daily services, like Matins (published in a separate volume), Compline, and the Hours? Do they reflect the ancient (pre-schism) usage, recent Anglican usage, or have Eastern elements been introduced to Orthodoxify them?
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2009, 06:18:52 PM »

So the Mass in this revised BCP is essentially "the Liturgy of St. Tikhon"?

Yes, it is the Liturgy of St. Tikhon


What about the other daily services, like Matins (published in a separate volume), Compline, and the Hours? Do they reflect the ancient (pre-schism) usage, recent Anglican usage, or have Eastern elements been introduced to Orthodoxify them?

If memory serves me correct, this BCP is a mix of the BCPs that the Anglicans have used in the past in different regions of the English speaking world, but Orthodoxized where needed.
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2009, 12:30:12 PM »

The Anglican Book of Common Prayer has various prayers for such things as guidance, voyages, meals etc...  Anyone know if these have been included or "orthodoxized"?

K
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2009, 03:35:35 PM »

The Anglican Book of Common Prayer has various prayers for such things as guidance, voyages, meals etc...  Anyone know if these have been included or "orthodoxized"?

K

yeah, most of them.
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« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2009, 12:58:40 AM »

Well, I decided on getting a copy. Should be here in a day or so. I will tell everybody what I think about it once I get it and have a look at it.
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2009, 01:20:13 AM »

I had some communication with some WR priests back when I first discovered Orthodoxy and I believe St. Andrews in Florida is one of the places to order WR sources. The priest in Washington DC was also quite helpful.

It has been a while, however, so I could be mistaken.
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2009, 01:28:01 AM »

How different are the morning and evening prayers?  Is the confession at the beginning still the same?  How much revision went into the weekly Propers?

I'm not planning on picking one up, I'm just curious.
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2010, 08:43:51 AM »


It's worth to mention that while the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow is the AWRV's "orthodoxized" version of the BCP rite, the Divine Liturgy of the English Rite (a.k.a. the English Liturgy) is the ROCOR's one. It was published in the Saint Colman Prayer Book (which can be ordered from here).


Dear Michal,

I believe that you have a strong interest in ROCA's Western Rite and that makes your comments worthy of attention.  Others have said that the Divine Liturgy of the English Rite (a.k.a. the English Liturgy) of the Saint Colman Prayer Book is not an " "orthodoxized" version of the BCP rite."  What about the Saint Colman version makes you think it is BCP?
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2010, 03:04:50 PM »

Forgive my ignorance. What is it that makes this revised edition Orthodox? I'd be interested in getting a copy.

There are two sets of changes, one that makes it Orthodox, and the other pastoral reasons.

The first includes things where the lex orandi, lex credendi is applied: e.g. where the priest invokes the "merits of the saints buried here" (i.e. the relics), it is changed to him invoking the "prayers of the saints buried here."

The other, in the Antiochian usage, is the epiclesis of St. John Chrysostom is inserted in addition to the old Roman epiclesis Supplices Te Rogamus, and the prayer of St. John Chrysostom before communion.  The reason for that is pastoral reasons: clearing up any doubts the Eastern Orthodox have about the sufficiency of the WRO DL, and in impress on the WRO the Orthodox understanding of the epiclesis and real presence.

Other than that, there is not much difference: I once went through the whole WRO Missal with the preVatican II Roman Missal and the 1928 BCP-ECUSA.  There were few differences.
If you just want to see the DL, its available online:
http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.pdf
http://www.reu.org/public/liturgys/litidx.htm

And elsewhere, google "Liturgy of St. Tikhon/St. Gregory."


For an interesting WRO account of what Protestants think of the rite:
http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/07/protestantism-vs-anglican-missal.html

And the Antiochian Vicarate. It seems they got a few more parishes this year.
http://www.antiochian.org/Western-Rite

I'm assuming the Roman Missal and BCP were pretty different. I can't really imagine comparing those three liturgies and coming out even.
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« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2010, 03:21:06 PM »

So the Mass in this revised BCP is essentially "the Liturgy of St. Tikhon"?

What about the other daily services, like Matins (published in a separate volume), Compline, and the Hours? Do they reflect the ancient (pre-schism) usage, recent Anglican usage, or have Eastern elements been introduced to Orthodoxify them?

This is something I keep coming back to. Proponents of WCR claim that sufficiently complete liturgies and rubrics exist from the period prior to 1054 to be able to establish a living link with them. I do not believe that can be substantiated. Source materials are too scarce and too incomplete to know what was normative anywhere in the West. To take something as simple as the music to which the liturgy would be sung, no one knows anything for sure about its rhythm, and the relative pitches of its melodies is strictly conjectural before about 1200. The meaning of some of the notation is still subject to hot disputes to this day. Further, the three earliest primary sources for the Sarum Rite are all post schism. Of course, it is likely the pre-schism practice was similar, or even identical. But we really don't know for sure. The liturgy engaged the efforts of the best artists of the day--musicians and poets. It was definitely subject to "fashion," which usually brings rapid change.

One speaks here of a "Roman Rite." Since we live in a time where Rome dictates nearly everything for the Catholic church, we imagine we know what that means. But even post-Tridentine liturgies in the West showed quite a bit of local variation, despite claims of universality. The (Tridentine) Roman Rite wasn't adopted for the archdiocese of Paris, for example, until the middle of the 19th century. So now go back 800 years and imagine how much more chaotic a Western Europe mired in the Dark Ages would have been, Viking attacks, no stable governments, constant warfare, near universal illiteracy...
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« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2010, 11:43:12 PM »

I'll admit, I'm not sure what the WCR is or means and perhaps you're referring to something specific that they/it claims, but this is precisely why the Antiochians adapted existing liturgies that had been kept alive by the people using them, albeit heterodox (which causes concern for many).

I know you don't like the Antiochian approach, but it remains, in my opinion, the most reasonable one, not the least of which is for the very reasons you bring up here.
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2010, 11:54:30 PM »

So the Mass in this revised BCP is essentially "the Liturgy of St. Tikhon"?

What about the other daily services, like Matins (published in a separate volume), Compline, and the Hours? Do they reflect the ancient (pre-schism) usage, recent Anglican usage, or have Eastern elements been introduced to Orthodoxify them?

This is something I keep coming back to. Proponents of WCR claim that sufficiently complete liturgies and rubrics exist from the period prior to 1054 to be able to establish a living link with them. I do not believe that can be substantiated. Source materials are too scarce and too incomplete to know what was normative anywhere in the West. To take something as simple as the music to which the liturgy would be sung, no one knows anything for sure about its rhythm, and the relative pitches of its melodies is strictly conjectural before about 1200. The meaning of some of the notation is still subject to hot disputes to this day. Further, the three earliest primary sources for the Sarum Rite are all post schism. Of course, it is likely the pre-schism practice was similar, or even identical. But we really don't know for sure. The liturgy engaged the efforts of the best artists of the day--musicians and poets. It was definitely subject to "fashion," which usually brings rapid change.
The chant you hear in a Russian Orthdox Church has nothing to do with the chants St. John Chrysostom heard, so what is your point?

Quote
One speaks here of a "Roman Rite." Since we live in a time where Rome dictates nearly everything for the Catholic church, we imagine we know what that means. But even post-Tridentine liturgies in the West showed quite a bit of local variation, despite claims of universality. The (Tridentine) Roman Rite wasn't adopted for the archdiocese of Paris, for example, until the middle of the 19th century. So now go back 800 years and imagine how much more chaotic a Western Europe mired in the Dark Ages would have been, Viking attacks, no stable governments, constant warfare, near universal illiteracy...
and somehow they still managed to offer the bloodless sacrifice, and not according to the rites of Constantinople.
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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 02:09:21 AM »

I checked out the very same website posted by the OP and noticed this book said to be comparable to St. Augustine's prayer book. I was wondering if this "revised" version had a devotional to the Blessed Sacrament? Does the WR even have such a devotion?

This is the book: http://www.andrewespress.com/ambrose.html


Here is one said to be for Anglican use: http://www.amazon.com/Saint-Augustines-prayer-book-Episcopal/dp/B0007EZ0BI
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2010, 02:50:21 AM »

O.k I didn't notice the same webpage had a PDF file which gives details of the St. Ambrose Prayer Book.

http://www.andrewespress.com/ambrose_prayer.pdf
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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2010, 12:26:19 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2010, 12:47:50 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
I've yet to find an Orthodox Church which didn't have at least one liturgy book published by the Vatican.  We are not in communion with them either. And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.

If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2010, 12:53:19 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
I've yet to find an Orthodox Church which didn't have at least one liturgy book published by the Vatican.  We are not in communion with them either. And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.

If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.

We don't use a single book published by the Vatican. Who does, and which book?
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2010, 01:18:32 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
I've yet to find an Orthodox Church which didn't have at least one liturgy book published by the Vatican.  We are not in communion with them either. And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.

If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.

We don't use a single book published by the Vatican. Who does, and which book?
"Byzantine Worship" is one of the most common ones I have seen in English in the US, but it isn't confined to English or the US, e.g. the Vatican Melkite Festal Menaion in Arabic, in the US and in the Middle East.
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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2010, 01:34:06 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
I've yet to find an Orthodox Church which didn't have at least one liturgy book published by the Vatican.  We are not in communion with them either. And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.

If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.

We don't use a single book published by the Vatican. Who does, and which book?
"Byzantine Worship" is one of the most common ones I have seen in English in the US, but it isn't confined to English or the US, e.g. the Vatican Melkite Festal Menaion in Arabic, in the US and in the Middle East.

I'm familiar with the Latin Rite and its publications from having worked many years as a church musician. Nothing in our Orthodox parish church use is from non-O or o provenance.
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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2010, 01:45:09 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
I've yet to find an Orthodox Church which didn't have at least one liturgy book published by the Vatican.  We are not in communion with them either. And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.

If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.

We don't use a single book published by the Vatican. Who does, and which book?
"Byzantine Worship" is one of the most common ones I have seen in English in the US, but it isn't confined to English or the US, e.g. the Vatican Melkite Festal Menaion in Arabic, in the US and in the Middle East.

I'm familiar with the Latin Rite and its publications from having worked many years as a church musician. Nothing in our Orthodox parish church use is from non-O or o provenance.
I didn't say anything about the Latin Rite.
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« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2010, 01:49:33 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
I've yet to find an Orthodox Church which didn't have at least one liturgy book published by the Vatican.  We are not in communion with them either. And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.

If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.

We don't use a single book published by the Vatican. Who does, and which book?
"Byzantine Worship" is one of the most common ones I have seen in English in the US, but it isn't confined to English or the US, e.g. the Vatican Melkite Festal Menaion in Arabic, in the US and in the Middle East.

I'm familiar with the Latin Rite and its publications from having worked many years as a church musician. Nothing in our Orthodox parish church use is from non-O or o provenance.
I didn't say anything about the Latin Rite.

You said books published by the Vatican. They publish a lot of books, but all the definiteive versions of the current "Western" i.e., Tridentine Rite in Latin are in the Vatican Edition. Same for the definitive (according to Catholics) Biblia Sacra Vulgata.
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« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2010, 01:52:38 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
I've yet to find an Orthodox Church which didn't have at least one liturgy book published by the Vatican.  We are not in communion with them either. And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.

If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.

We don't use a single book published by the Vatican. Who does, and which book?
"Byzantine Worship" is one of the most common ones I have seen in English in the US, but it isn't confined to English or the US, e.g. the Vatican Melkite Festal Menaion in Arabic, in the US and in the Middle East.

I'm familiar with the Latin Rite and its publications from having worked many years as a church musician. Nothing in our Orthodox parish church use is from non-O or o provenance.
I didn't say anything about the Latin Rite.

You said books published by the Vatican. They publish a lot of books, but all the definiteive versions of the current "Western" i.e., Tridentine Rite in Latin are in the Vatican Edition. Same for the definitive (according to Catholics) Biblia Sacra Vulgata.
They publish plenty for their Eastern rites.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2010, 01:58:25 PM »

We use no book published in Rome, on the contrary, the Greek-Catholics often use our books.

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« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2010, 02:07:14 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
I've yet to find an Orthodox Church which didn't have at least one liturgy book published by the Vatican.  We are not in communion with them either. And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.

If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.

We don't use a single book published by the Vatican. Who does, and which book?
"Byzantine Worship" is one of the most common ones I have seen in English in the US, but it isn't confined to English or the US, e.g. the Vatican Melkite Festal Menaion in Arabic, in the US and in the Middle East.

I'm familiar with the Latin Rite and its publications from having worked many years as a church musician. Nothing in our Orthodox parish church use is from non-O or o provenance.
I didn't say anything about the Latin Rite.

You said books published by the Vatican. They publish a lot of books, but all the definiteive versions of the current "Western" i.e., Tridentine Rite in Latin are in the Vatican Edition. Same for the definitive (according to Catholics) Biblia Sacra Vulgata.
They publish plenty for their Eastern rites.

No doubt. And they publish scholarly works of all kinds, including some rather surprising things. There are many pontifical universities in Rome, after all.
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« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2010, 07:15:37 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
I've yet to find an Orthodox Church which didn't have at least one liturgy book published by the Vatican.  We are not in communion with them either. And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.

If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.

We don't use a single book published by the Vatican. Who does, and which book?

It is not at all uncommon to find the 1965 English translation of the Ruthenian Liturgicon on ACROD altars or Byzantine Divine Worship by Archbishop Joseph Raya of blessed memory on Greek or Antiochian ones.  The latter was received and blessed by Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras of blessed memory.  The Vatican Publishing editions of the various Eastern liturgies are renowned for the scholarship and aside from petitions for the Pope of Rome contain nothing the Orthodox could not use.
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« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2010, 07:28:45 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
I've yet to find an Orthodox Church which didn't have at least one liturgy book published by the Vatican.  We are not in communion with them either. And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.

If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.

We don't use a single book published by the Vatican. Who does, and which book?

It is not at all uncommon to find the 1965 English translation of the Ruthenian Liturgicon on ACROD altars or Byzantine Divine Worship by Archbishop Joseph Raya of blessed memory on Greek or Antiochian ones.  The latter was received and blessed by Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras of blessed memory.  The Vatican Publishing editions of the various Eastern liturgies are renowned for the scholarship and aside from petitions for the Pope of Rome contain nothing the Orthodox could not use.
Note entirely.  For instance, Byzantine Worship has a Sunday of Relics instead of St. Gregory Palamas, an office for Corpus Christi, a St. Threse of Lisieux, etc.

Worst of all-it commemorates Josaphat Kuntsevych Shocked Shocked Shocked

But yes, many publications by the Vatican are fine, or easily made so.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2010, 08:04:47 PM »

Getting my copy Today!
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« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2010, 08:08:18 PM »


And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.


All the same, the Milan Synod puiblications of the Sarum Rite and the Prayer Book, etc, were appoved for sale in all Russian Church Abroad bookshops.  These are the result of the scholarship of Fr Aidan Keller with input from His Grace Bishop Jerome (Fr John Shaw.)  Approval for their sale in our shops was given long before Fr Aidan came into the Russian Church Abroad.
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« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2010, 08:10:49 PM »

In Romania the Greek-Catholic liturgical books contain relatively numerous Latinisms that sound quite unnatural in Romanian and thus differ from their Orthodox counter-parts that contain Slavonisms, that can also be cumbersome, at times.
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« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2010, 08:15:46 PM »

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
I've yet to find an Orthodox Church which didn't have at least one liturgy book published by the Vatican.  We are not in communion with them either. And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.

If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.

We don't use a single book published by the Vatican. Who does, and which book?

It is not at all uncommon to find the 1965 English translation of the Ruthenian Liturgicon on ACROD altars or Byzantine Divine Worship by Archbishop Joseph Raya of blessed memory on Greek or Antiochian ones.  The latter was received and blessed by Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras of blessed memory.  The Vatican Publishing editions of the various Eastern liturgies are renowned for the scholarship and aside from petitions for the Pope of Rome contain nothing the Orthodox could not use.
Note entirely.  For instance, Byzantine Worship has a Sunday of Relics instead of St. Gregory Palamas, an office for Corpus Christi, a St. Threse of Lisieux, etc.

Worst of all-it commemorates Josaphat Kuntsevych Shocked Shocked Shocked

But yes, many publications by the Vatican are fine, or easily made so.

Point taken but I was refering to the Vatican published editions, which are pretty purist although one will find St. Josaphat in the list of martyrs at the proskomede and litija and in the menaion.  BDW was published by Alleluia Press.
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« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2010, 07:10:02 PM »

I checked out the very same website posted by the OP and noticed this book said to be comparable to St. Augustine's prayer book. I was wondering if this "revised" version had a devotional to the Blessed Sacrament? Does the WR even have such a devotion?

This is the book: http://www.andrewespress.com/ambrose.html


Here is one said to be for Anglican use: http://www.amazon.com/Saint-Augustines-prayer-book-Episcopal/dp/B0007EZ0BI

I have this prayer book as well. It contains Eucharistic devotions (as does the Book of Common Prayer discussed). And yes, Many Western Riters have Adoration and Benediction. This is somewhat controversial.

Looking at the book Western Orthodox Prayers of Old England, I wonder why I didn't realize before that the group that published it is affiliated with the Holy Synod of Milan? It almost makes the rest of the conversation irrelevant, since as far as I'm aware Milan isn't in communion with any of the--what to call them--recognized? mainstream? Orthodox jurisdictions. Has this changed?

I'd be happy to be wrong about our not being in communion with one another, since I would pray for all who are orthodox to be able to meet in peace at the Lord's table.
The Antiochian and ROCOR Western Rites have nothing to do with the Milan Synod. Neither does the publisher of this Book of Common Prayer.
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« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2011, 10:48:15 AM »

Someone asked me about the cost of the "Western Orthodox" prayer book. I paid about $30 for it two months ago, including shipping. I bought it from a private seller listed on Amazon, and it was a new book, shirk-wrapped, with an unbroken binding. (I.e., I was the first person to open it.)
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« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2011, 11:54:04 AM »


And so, like using the Vatican's publications, those by the Synod of Milan cannot be accepted on face value like one of the Antiochian Archdiocese or ROCOR.


All the same, the Milan Synod puiblications of the Sarum Rite and the Prayer Book, etc, were appoved for sale in all Russian Church Abroad bookshops.  These are the result of the scholarship of Fr Aidan Keller with input from His Grace Bishop Jerome (Fr John Shaw.)  Approval for their sale in our shops was given long before Fr Aidan came into the Russian Church Abroad.
Hence my caveat, Father:
If some Orthodox bishop, or better yet, synod, has examined the book in question and approved it, that is another matter.
If the Holy Synod of ROCOR examined and approved the Milan Synod publications, that approval trumps the canonical status of the Milan Synod, at least since the Act of Canonical Communion.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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