OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 22, 2014, 05:42:24 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: history of episcopal sakkos  (Read 1638 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
samkim
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 735



« on: November 11, 2009, 08:21:39 PM »

1) What is the relationship between the Sakkos, Dalmatikon, Sticharion, and western Dalmatic and alb?
2) Why did bishops in the west continue to wear a chasuble, while in the east bishops wore the sakkos instead of the phelonion?
3) Did eastern bishops ever wear a phelonion over a sakkos, as  western bishops are permitted to wear a dalmatic under the chasuble?
Logged

주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2009, 08:31:28 PM »

The polystavron predates the sakkos for Bishops. This was a "chasuble"  with tessellated Crosses, and is often seen in Icons of early Bishop Saints:



The sakkos was originally worn by the Emperor.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2009, 08:39:00 PM »

Bishops wear phelonions instead of sakkoses on St. James Liturgy.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 08:39:33 PM by mike » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
samkim
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 735



« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2009, 08:50:16 PM »

The polystavron predates the sakkos for Bishops. This was a "chasuble"  with tessellated Crosses, and is often seen in Icons of early Bishop Saints:

Oh okay. That's what I meant by "while in the east bishops wore the sakkos instead of the phelonion?"
Logged

주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2009, 02:33:59 PM »

1) What is the relationship between the Sakkos, Dalmatikon, Sticharion, and western Dalmatic and alb?

Sticharion = alb
Sakkos = Dalmatic

Nowadays, the Dalmatikon is only for deacons or subdeacons. Originally, it was an imperial vestment, which some Bishops and their archdeacons were allowed to wear. Most of the eastern vestments were imperial in origin, which really just means they were fancy cloth made with gold thread.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2009, 07:30:22 PM »

What is the difference between sticharion and dalmatikon?

In Poland older and taller acolytes usually borrow deaconal sticharions (with buttons).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 07:30:39 PM by mike » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2009, 01:37:00 AM »

1) What is the relationship between the Sakkos, Dalmatikon, Sticharion, and western Dalmatic and alb?

Sticharion = alb
Sakkos = Dalmatic

Nowadays, the Dalmatikon is only for deacons or subdeacons. Originally, it was an imperial vestment, which some Bishops and their archdeacons were allowed to wear. Most of the eastern vestments were imperial in origin, which really just means they were fancy cloth made with gold thread.

The Dalmatic is not related to the Sakkos, the Sakkos is strictly an Imperial garment that only the Emperor could wear. When there was no longer an Emperor the Patriarch of Constantinople started to wear the Sakkos and the Crown and soon there after it spread amongst all the Bishops.
Logged

Joseph
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,015



« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2009, 02:03:24 AM »

I cannot recall the name of the book, but Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna, Greek Old Calendar Synod in Resistance's Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, has published an excellent paperback book on the historical development of vestments.  Google CTOS for their web site.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2009, 10:21:47 AM »

The Dalmatic is not related to the Sakkos, the Sakkos is strictly an Imperial garment that only the Emperor could wear. When there was no longer an Emperor the Patriarch of Constantinople started to wear the Sakkos and the Crown and soon there after it spread amongst all the Bishops.

Of course, they aren't historically related or identical, but they are analogous.

Further, the sakkos was used by many Patriarchs and Archbishops on major feast days, as attested as early as the 12th century by Balsamon -- well before the Fall of Constantinople. It became ubiquitous later on.

Really, all of the eastern vestments being discussed were Imperial garments at one time or another. If you go back far enough (fourth century), even the Dalmatikon was for the Roman Emperor, then only for high-ranking Imperial officials, then for some high-ranking hierarchs, and so on. In that sense, there's really nothing all that unique about the sakkos being an Emperor-only garment.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2009, 02:43:26 PM »

Further, the sakkos was used by many Patriarchs and Archbishops on major feast days, as attested as early as the 12th century by Balsamon -- well before the Fall of Constantinople. It became ubiquitous later on.
Do you know in which writings Balsamon discusses this? I have read through a number of his works but I don't remember him ever commenting on vestments, but when I was reading him it was on research for canon law so it wouldn't be surprising if I didn't read about vestments.
Logged

Joseph
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2009, 08:18:48 PM »

Do you know in which writings Balsamon discusses this? I have read through a number of his works but I don't remember him ever commenting on vestments, but when I was reading him it was on research for canon law so it wouldn't be surprising if I didn't read about vestments.

No, I will try to find it. From what I recall, it's in a passage where he is discussing the rights/practices of different Patriarchs / Metropolitans, and how this also relates to liturgical garb. Only the Pope of Alexandria can wear a head covering during divine services. Something like that.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2009, 12:12:39 AM »

Do you know in which writings Balsamon discusses this? I have read through a number of his works but I don't remember him ever commenting on vestments, but when I was reading him it was on research for canon law so it wouldn't be surprising if I didn't read about vestments.

No, I will try to find it. From what I recall, it's in a passage where he is discussing the rights/practices of different Patriarchs / Metropolitans, and how this also relates to liturgical garb. Only the Pope of Alexandria can wear a head covering during divine services. Something like that.

If you can even find the title of this work that wold be great, this sounds like something I wouldn't mind translating if it isn't in English.
Logged

Joseph
samkim
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 735



« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2010, 06:50:22 PM »

Why didn't western bishops adopt the sakkos/dalmatic as their normal liturgical vestment? (Although some traditional RC bishops do wear a dalmatic under their chasuble.)
Logged

주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
samkim
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 735



« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 06:52:08 PM »

Bishops wear phelonions instead of sakkoses on St. James Liturgy.

This is an interesting fact.
Logged

주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2010, 10:02:25 AM »

Quote
Why didn't western bishops adopt the sakkos/dalmatic as their normal liturgical vestment? (Although some traditional RC bishops do wear a dalmatic under their chasuble.)

They weren't under the eastern emperor, so they had no motivation to adopt Imperial vestments.

In the traditional Roman rite, a bishop wears a chasuble over a dalmatic over a tunicle (the vestment proper to subdeacons) over an alb, thus showing he possesses the fullness of the priestly orders.
Logged
Tags: vestments bishops 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.062 seconds with 42 queries.