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Author Topic: This guy that has been protesting outside our Church...  (Read 4416 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 11, 2009, 05:22:54 AM »

He has been picketing outside our Cathedral for the last several weeks.

http://holyorthodoxy.com/

Please comment.
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2009, 07:25:20 AM »

He seems to behave like the protestant that he probably was before becoming Orthodox...
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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2009, 08:10:44 AM »

Has the Bishop been notified?
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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2009, 08:22:24 AM »

Convertitis it seems but maybe he needs some spiritual (he seems sane of course) counseling to direct his energy in a more effective manner.
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2009, 09:37:25 AM »

Wow. I know him. Looks like he has also picketed a few other churches in different areas of the country.
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2009, 10:45:46 AM »

Westboro Orthodox Church in the making.
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2009, 10:46:57 AM »

i wonder if he's a member of Fred Phelp's church?
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2009, 10:57:22 AM »

What a epithet removed Grin I few snippets from his site says it all.

"No evangelism--whether door to door or visiting new neighbors.  In fact, listen to their 15 minute weekly sermons--if they even post them online--and you'll hear more preaching against the practices of the Evangelicals, the Christian people who truly reach out and care for lost souls in this country, ie Christian radio, TV, movies, bus ministries, prisons, nursing homes, etc."

"And they don't believe in bringing people to Christ anyway.  Ask the leadership and they'll tell you, if they don't equivocate on this, too."


My response...

Yea guy, but so much of evangelical Christianity is filled with shallow platitudes and it's so uninteresting, gaudy, and tacky. Just visit your local mega-church. I actually laugh at some of the silly things protestants do. It's really not to be taken seriously and it should have jumped the shark a long time ago.
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2009, 11:22:10 AM »

 http://www.church-on-the-net.com/video/pop.asp?V=nsHH_HYSkH8

When mass-appeal worship fails miserably.

Yes, Orthodoxy have their fools-for-Christ too. They don't define it as "jump and spin your sock around like an idiot."
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2009, 11:31:31 AM »

Made me think of this:
"Someone who has actually tasted truth is not contentious for truth. Someone who is considered by people to be zealous for truth has not yet learnt what truth is really like; once he has truly learnt it, he will cease from zealousness on its behalf."

- St. Isaac the Syrian

And of course, "Obtain the Spirit of Peace and thousands around you will be saved." - St. Seraphim.

Guy could use worrying about what Orthodoxy is and not about what he thinks it's not.
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2009, 11:39:53 AM »

He needs to take his medicine or go get some.  Perhaps there should be an intervention on next Sunday's menu for coffee hour.
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2009, 12:12:21 PM »

Instead of this thread devolving in to ad hominems and libel, let's take a step back and address the issues this man's actions raise. Is there a place for prophets in the modern Orthodox Church? If so, how is their role defined? Since the office of prophet in the early Church seemed to be a charismatic role outside of the local Church structure (I believe the Didache speaks about this, or one of the other Apostolic Fathers' writings), how does one discern a call to prophethood? I have understood that a prophet would have to be in illumination before he could be given these gifts? Is that accurate, or perhaps is this man in illumination? Or is he in plani/prelest/delusion? Is there a way to discern? Obviously with a spiritual father....but what are the criteria?
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2009, 12:41:50 PM »

I have understood that a prophet would have to be in illumination before he could be given these gifts? Is that accurate, or perhaps is this man in illumination?

The Scriptures often speak in parallel of the gifts of prophecy and tongues. The Centurion Cornelius and his family received the gift of tongues prior to baptism (in fact, it was the expression of this gifts which irrefutably demonstrated that even though Gentiles they should be baptized and brought into the Church). And in the Old Testament we find prophets who are not actually part of the existing covenant (Barlaam). As the Spirit 'blows where It wills', it seems that at least theoretically, the Spirit could grant the gift of prophecy to someone not actually inside the Church--although I find it hard to see how someone so gifted wouldn't also be guided to receive illumination (St. Peter and Cornelius reaction to the descent of the Holy Spirit wasn't 'oh well, you're good then', it was 'baptize').

Quote
Or is he in plani/prelest/delusion? Is there a way to discern? Obviously with a spiritual father....but what are the criteria?

We are warned against false prophets and the need to test the spirits. My understanding is that we do so by testing them against the Tradition. Here's one quote from the site that makes it apparent this individual has no understanding of the Church's teaching on salvation:
"They believe evangelism is bringing people to the church instead of personally inviting the lost to a genuine personal faith-based relationship with Jesus Christ initiated by prayer.  They wonder, even from the pulpit, if anything actually happens to people who pray the sinner's prayer--a prayer begging God to forgive the sinner and give him a chance at eternal life. It is popular here to believe that among those who convert to Christianity, that nothing really happens (spiritually) until they are baptized. "
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2009, 01:25:19 PM »

Instead of this thread devolving in to ad hominems and libel, let's take a step back and address the issues this man's actions raise. Is there a place for prophets in the modern Orthodox Church? If so, how is their role defined? Since the office of prophet in the early Church seemed to be a charismatic role outside of the local Church structure (I believe the Didache speaks about this, or one of the other Apostolic Fathers' writings), how does one discern a call to prophethood? I have understood that a prophet would have to be in illumination before he could be given these gifts? Is that accurate, or perhaps is this man in illumination? Or is he in plani/prelest/delusion? Is there a way to discern? Obviously with a spiritual father....but what are the criteria?


Some of his points are valid, some aren't:

"No evangelism--whether door to door or visiting new neighbors.  In fact, listen to their 15 minute weekly sermons--if they even post them online--and you'll hear more preaching against the practices of the Evangelicals, the Christian people who truly reach out and care for lost souls in this country, ie Christian radio, TV, movies, bus ministries, prisons, nursing homes, etc..." http://holyorthodoxy.com/2

Now I don't fault a parish for not posting weekly sermons online, but we all know we've seen plenty of complaints on this forum about the Orthodox Church not evangelising enough or some parishes putting more emphasis on ethnicity.

Case in point: Fo rmany years I was an Episcopalian, and was a lay Eucharistic minister at my parish. For about 2 years I took communion to a local nursing home. Some of the elderly I communed were EO or OO. Why did they take communon from an Episcopal church? Despite the fact that was a GOA parish with 2 full time priests, two OCA parishes, a Coptic parish, an Armenian parish and a Byzantine Catholic parish no one from those churches ever came to visit them. My Episcopal parish was the only access these folks had to Holy Communion.
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2009, 01:56:43 PM »

Please respond to this statement from his web page.
------------------------------
"Still have questions? Please contact us anytime! We look forward to hearing from you."
------------------------------

Uh.....I only saw one guy with a sign.  Shocked
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2009, 03:08:54 PM »

Ya, he has a place for feedback on his page so he will most likely post your comments. As far as "us" goes...I have no idea!
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2009, 03:32:50 PM »

Has the Bishop been notified?

He is aware of the issue, although I'm not sure of his reaction. Judging by this quote that the picketer put on his site, I would say that it's not positive.

"And I had the police called on me and a complaint was made by some church official.  The net result of that is if I enter the property of my own church I'll be arrested for criminal trespass."
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2009, 04:33:25 PM »

I hope this man will someday experience The Willard Preacher, Gary Cattell [color=#green]spelling of last named corrected -username! section moderator[/color].  His relevance, kindness, humbleness, and patience with the Penn State students is amazing. 

http://www.thewillardpreacher.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osghUvKACAA   

Skip the intro and end of the 10 minute youtube clip. Take a look at this Orthodox Christian "street preacher".
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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2009, 05:29:43 PM »

From the website:

"This church has relied on the Evangelicals to convert the lost so they can then convert the Evangelicals to "lead them to the fullness of the truth".  They don't reach the lost themselves.  Ask around among the converts.  You'll see that very very few came from anywhere but another Christian church.  Where are the former Muslims, former unchurched, former Jehovah's Witness, former Atheist/Agnostics."

With few exceptions, this sounds somewhat accurate.  The vast majority of the seminarians here (myself included) are converts from Evangelical Protestantism or (in some cases) Roman Catholicism.  A handful of those in each year are cradle Orthodox.  One cradle Orthodox in my year has mentioned his disappointment when he got here and saw how few cradles there were: "Really?" he said.  "That's all the people here who grew up in the faith?"

My thoughts transferred from that to how it was the Evangelicals who helped me give a flip about God, the Scriptures, etc in the first place, and I wondered why so many folks have to make that "stop" nowadays on their way to the fullness of the faith.  Evangelicals seem to do a good job of getting folks a foundation of "God is holy; God is good; God has saved you through His love; God talks to us through the Scriptures; God wants us to obey the Scriptures, and this is a good thing, etc."  Once they do that, there's only so far they can go, but my question is this: How do we in the Church, who have the τελος, or goal of the Faith (total union with Christ through Word AND sacrament), "connect the dots" from knowing nothing about the faith to a heartfelt appreciation for our God and His Church?
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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2009, 05:36:58 PM »

^^I think that a portion of this man’s message is acceptable but his “presentation” is very upsetting.  Standing outside with anti-Islam signs could bring unforeseen trouble to his church.
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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2009, 05:40:51 PM »

I hope this man will someday experience The Willard Preacher, Gary Cantrell.  His relevance, kindness, humbleness, and patience with the Penn State students is amazing. 

http://www.thewillardpreacher.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osghUvKACAA   

Skip the intro and end of the 10 minute youtube clip. Take a look at this Orthodox Christian "street preacher".

Yeah, I love this guy!  Glad to see he's extended the website.
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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2009, 05:58:05 PM »

Quote
"And I had the police called on me and a complaint was made by some church official.  The net result of that is if I enter the property of my own church I'll be arrested for criminal trespass."
I think people need to check their choice of action when their Church takes a restraining order on them.
This isn't being a "prophet", its pathological.
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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2009, 02:57:37 AM »

He has been picketing outside our Cathedral for the last several weeks.

http://holyorthodoxy.com/

Please comment.

Well, what are you going to do with these crazy cradles?

Just kidding, that's a discussion for another thread. Wink  I'd say, someone like this who doesn't disturb things too much is not a problem, but if he/she is disturbing things, then that's another issue. We have to let people be who they are. I think we should, anyway.
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« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2009, 11:37:34 AM »

Instead of this thread devolving in to ad hominems and libel, let's take a step back and address the issues this man's actions raise. Is there a place for prophets in the modern Orthodox Church? If so, how is their role defined? Since the office of prophet in the early Church seemed to be a charismatic role outside of the local Church structure (I believe the Didache speaks about this, or one of the other Apostolic Fathers' writings), how does one discern a call to prophethood? I have understood that a prophet would have to be in illumination before he could be given these gifts? Is that accurate, or perhaps is this man in illumination? Or is he in plani/prelest/delusion? Is there a way to discern? Obviously with a spiritual father....but what are the criteria?

My thoughts exactly.  Given the current state of American Orthodoxy, I would not be shocked to see a Prophet sent as a warning.  On the other hand, some caution is in order as there are False Prophets, too. 
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« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2009, 03:27:51 PM »

Quote
"And I had the police called on me and a complaint was made by some church official.  The net result of that is if I enter the property of my own church I'll be arrested for criminal trespass."
I think people need to check their choice of action when their Church takes a restraining order on them.
This isn't being a "prophet", its pathological.


And so, when St. Maximus was exiled for speaking the truth, he was being pathological?

I'm not definitely taking the position that this guy should be directly compared to St. Maximus (time is always the determining factor in these sorts of things), but when someone speaks out against what he feels are serious betrayals of the truth, and people take some sort of action to physically restrain him simply because they don't want to be bothered with it, are they automatically justified in doing so because the person speaking out is somehow always pathological? 

Help me understand your position, George.
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« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2009, 05:43:57 PM »

And so, when St. Maximus was exiled for speaking the truth, he was being pathological?
No he wasn't. Thats the point. He didn't stand outside Agia Sophia carrying placards with the web address of his blog- the modern equivalent of "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!"
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« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2009, 05:50:24 PM »

Quote
"And I had the police called on me and a complaint was made by some church official.  The net result of that is if I enter the property of my own church I'll be arrested for criminal trespass."
I think people need to check their choice of action when their Church takes a restraining order on them.
This isn't being a "prophet", its pathological.


And so, when St. Maximus was exiled for speaking the truth, he was being pathological?

I'm not definitely taking the position that this guy should be directly compared to St. Maximus (time is always the determining factor in these sorts of things), but when someone speaks out against what he feels are serious betrayals of the truth, and people take some sort of action to physically restrain him simply because they don't want to be bothered with it, are they automatically justified in doing so because the person speaking out is somehow always pathological? 

Help me understand your position, George.

I'm not really prepared to discuss whether or not he is a prophet, but assuming that he is not, I would say that the big difference between this man and St. Maximus is that at least St. Maximus had a spiritual father that he listened to, as well as the arguments of others.  It seems on this man's blog that nothing anyone says has daunted him, and he only posts things that he agrees with, or has comments on.  How many hundreds of anti-placard/demonstration emails do you think he's gotten?  has he responded to them?  is he willing to listen to reason, and how do we know?  All we know is that whatever anyone says he's going to do what he's going to do. 

This of course brings us to the prophet question, which I personally would like to spend some time on. 

Has this man seen a priest about what he wants/needs?  Is he open to the idea that what he is doing just isn't orthodox or christian? 

Realistically I think this man is on a crusade no matter what the cost, or no matter what the argument.  I plan on analyzing the situation further and writing him a clear response, which I will post, and we'll see what this guy is made of.   Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2009, 06:14:09 PM »

You know...after further thought maybe I won't post what I wrote to him just yet.  I would rather wait to see what his response is...if any.  I just sent him a message. 
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« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2009, 10:46:11 PM »

And so, when St. Maximus was exiled for speaking the truth, he was being pathological?
No he wasn't. Thats the point. He didn't stand outside Agia Sophia carrying placards with the web address of his blog- the modern equivalent of "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!"

Do you know for sure that he's not trying to get people to pay attention to the issues he's raised?  If so, how?  Do you know whether or not he's already lost friends in Church because of this, yet continues doing this out of conviction and (tough) love for the Church?  If so, how?

I would say that the big difference between this man and St. Maximus is that at least St. Maximus had a spiritual father that he listened to, as well as the arguments of others.

Do you know for sure that this man doesn't have one?

Quote
It seems on this man's blog that nothing anyone says has daunted him, and he only posts things that he agrees with, or has comments on.

The Feedback page has some folks who disagree with him.  He also seems to have reflected (though he doesn't go into specifics) regarding some conversations in the News page.

Quote
How many hundreds of anti-placard/demonstration emails do you think he's gotten?  has he responded to them?  is he willing to listen to reason, and how do we know?

We don't.  I don't.  You don't.  1?  1 million?  Does it matter?

Quote
All we know is that whatever anyone says he's going to do what he's going to do.

I'm sorry--was a word left out here?  I didn't understand the sentence.

Quote
Has this man seen a priest about what he wants/needs?

No one seems to know, and he has not given that information. 

Quote
Is he open to the idea that what he is doing just isn't orthodox or christian?

Speaking what he believes to be the truth is living without hypocrisy.  He is not yelling at anyone, it doesn't seem.  He seems to be having good-natured conversations with the people who stop by him.  Why would this not be "orthodox" or "christian"?

Quote
Realistically I think this man is on a crusade no matter what the cost, or no matter what the argument.

Do you know this for a fact, or have you projected it on him?  Do you know what arguments he's actually heard?  Or not?  Do you know whether he's altered his beliefs about any of this in the past? 

My point is, he raises some valid points.  It is very difficult to get peoples' attention these days, so he's doing this to help raise awareness.  I think he's wrong for attending an Evangelical church one Sunday (even though the priest apparently got sick and they closed the church without warning on Sunday morning), and it's obvious that he's dealing with frustration and (I don't know, perhaps) anger at some of the things he perceives as apathy and wildly misplaced priorities in the Church at large and his parish in particular, and those feelings need to be dealt with an replaced with a spirit of peace and humility, but again -- I think these points need to be made, personally.  Islam does need to be spoken against.  We do need to focus more on external ministry, service, and evangelism.  We do need to make sure our youth grow up knowing Holy Scripture and giving of themselves to serve other people in the name of Christ.

If you felt that people needed to start paying attention to these needs, how would you go about getting their attention?  Thinking out loud, I suppose I would ask Father if I could start something up (and in fact I did this though a series of classes over nine months at our parish to stress biblical literacy and knowledge of the workings of the divine services, which I felt were needed; the classes received a good response, thank God).  We should be the change we wish to see, though perhaps (I don't know this, of course) he's been stonewalled by the priest there.  If one is still convinced of the need to address these things, what should one do?  What would you do?
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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2009, 11:35:46 PM »

Do you know for sure that he's not trying to get people to pay attention to the issues he's raised? 
Pretty sure.

If so, how? 
His blog.

Do you know whether or not he's already lost friends in Church because of this, yet continues doing this out of conviction and (tough) love for the Church? 
Of course he's lost friends. For one thing, in his own words he "can't enter his own church".
And how does one have "tough love" for the Church? One either loves the Church or not. If we must use the Orthodox version of Godwin's Law- Reductio Ad St. Mark Eugenikos- St. Mark chose to cut Communion with what he saw as heirarchs who had fallen away from the Church. The Church will continue, but people will fall away from her. So if this is a modern St. Mark of Ephesus, he should cut ties with these Heirarchs. Thats the first thing.
The second thing is that any Faith which is not Islam is already anti-Islam, so he is beating a strawman. Possible reasons for this behaviour:
1) Fixed delusion
2) Plani/prelest
3) The Church is the Synagogue of Satan and the Whore of Babylon.
I'm opting for either possibility (1) or (2).

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« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2009, 12:11:00 AM »

Please forgive my ignorance. I’ve never understood prelest.  Some imply it is a true delusion (not under voluntary control like with hallucinations).  Others state that it is only the lack of knowing/or denial that you need to repent. Which is it? 
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« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2009, 12:16:42 AM »

Please forgive my ignorance. I’ve never understood prelest.  Some imply it is a true delusion (not under voluntary control like with hallucinations).  Others state that it is only the lack of knowing/or denial that you need to repent. Which is it? 

It's Spiritual delusion. The Fathers have a good term for it: "Attack from the right".
An "attack from the left" is a temptation to do something you know to be evil.
An "attack from the right" is when the demons convince me that I am acting "righteously" when in fact I am sinking into a mire of pride and vainglory and causing harm to others as well. Basically, its being deluded into thinking you are "on the right track" when you are on the road to destruction.
We are all in plani/prelest to some degree.
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« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2009, 12:22:12 AM »

^^Thanks for the info.

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« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2009, 02:32:20 AM »


 I think he's wrong for attending an Evangelical church one Sunday (even though the priest apparently got sick and they closed the church without warning on Sunday morning),

Just for clarification, there are two Orthodox Churches in our town. Our Cathedral (St. George) has 3 priests, and it's sister parish (St. Mary's) has 1 priest. This particular Sunday he went to picket at St. Mary's when their one priest was ill. I would be very surprised if the parishioners of St. Mary's weren't notifed in advance that their priest was ill, and told instead to attend St. George for that Sunday. If he wanted to attend Divine Liturgy, he still could have at St. George's (which is in fact his Church), but he purposely makes it a point to picket during the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2009, 02:35:37 AM »

he purposely makes it a point to picket during the Divine Liturgy.
Hmmmm.....lets discern some spirits.....
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« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2009, 03:14:22 AM »

Could someone briefly explain this chap's beef, please.
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« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2009, 03:18:50 AM »

Could someone briefly explain this chap's beef, please.

He doesn't think the Church is:
1) doing enough to inform people about the dangers of Islam
2) preaching enough on the dangers of hell
3) doing enough evangelism
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« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2009, 03:26:39 AM »

Could someone briefly explain this chap's beef, please.

He doesn't think the Church is:
1) doing enough to inform people about the dangers of Islam
2) preaching enough on the dangers of hell
3) doing enough evangelism

Thanks Ortho_cat.
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« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2009, 03:28:24 AM »

And so, when St. Maximus was exiled for speaking the truth, he was being pathological?
No he wasn't. Thats the point. He didn't stand outside Agia Sophia carrying placards with the web address of his blog- the modern equivalent of "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!"

Do you know for sure that he's not trying to get people to pay attention to the issues he's raised?  If so, how?  Do you know whether or not he's already lost friends in Church because of this, yet continues doing this out of conviction and (tough) love for the Church?  If so, how?

I would say that the big difference between this man and St. Maximus is that at least St. Maximus had a spiritual father that he listened to, as well as the arguments of others.

Do you know for sure that this man doesn't have one?

No as a matter of fact I do not know for sure.  Neither do we know for sure that he does have one.  

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It seems on this man's blog that nothing anyone says has daunted him, and he only posts things that he agrees with, or has comments on.

The Feedback page has some folks who disagree with him.  He also seems to have reflected (though he doesn't go into specifics) regarding some conversations in the News page.

The issue still is that the people who disagree with him do not seem to daunt him, change him, or skew his "warpath".  This is not someone who wants to dialogue to change, he wants to do what he wants to do, in the way he wants to do it.  if he picks up some things along the way, great, but that's about it.  I havn't seen evidence of anything other than this.  Maybe you would like to make a case for him.  

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How many hundreds of anti-placard/demonstration emails do you think he's gotten?  has he responded to them?  is he willing to listen to reason, and how do we know?

We don't.  I don't.  You don't.  1?  1 million?  Does it matter?

Sure it matters.  If he's not willing to listen to others that is an anti-christian, and very ignorant position to have.  megalomania comes to mind.  And, if he is going to proclaim Christ to people, and is approaching it in this way, and he doesn't respond to people's criticism or feedback...well...that's a problem.  I have no other way to explain myself right now...sorry.  

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All we know is that whatever anyone says he's going to do what he's going to do.

I'm sorry--was a word left out here?  I didn't understand the sentence.

I was just trying to say that no matter what anyone says to him he will do what he plans on doing (no matter what).  

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Has this man seen a priest about what he wants/needs?

No one seems to know, and he has not given that information.

Yah...highly suspect to me.  

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Is he open to the idea that what he is doing just isn't orthodox or christian?

Speaking what he believes to be the truth is living without hypocrisy.  He is not yelling at anyone, it doesn't seem.  He seems to be having good-natured conversations with the people who stop by him.  Why would this not be "orthodox" or "christian"?

Well in christian history I can't think of a single example of someone with a sign "christ is the best" or "the lord of abraham jacob and isaac is the man" or such.  In fact, people were dialogical beings, and we also have those who showed their faith through their actions and not their words.  this man is in a weird in the middle type of ministry, that really makes no sense to me.  So as far as i'm concerned, the ball is in his court to prove himself.  

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Realistically I think this man is on a crusade no matter what the cost, or no matter what the argument.

Do you know this for a fact, or have you projected it on him?  Do you know what arguments he's actually heard?  Or not?  Do you know whether he's altered his beliefs about any of this in the past? 

My point is, he raises some valid points.  It is very difficult to get peoples' attention these days, so he's doing this to help raise awareness.  I think he's wrong for attending an Evangelical church one Sunday (even though the priest apparently got sick and they closed the church without warning on Sunday morning), and it's obvious that he's dealing with frustration and (I don't know, perhaps) anger at some of the things he perceives as apathy and wildly misplaced priorities in the Church at large and his parish in particular, and those feelings need to be dealt with an replaced with a spirit of peace and humility, but again -- I think these points need to be made, personally.  Islam does need to be spoken against.  We do need to focus more on external ministry, service, and evangelism.  We do need to make sure our youth grow up knowing Holy Scripture and giving of themselves to serve other people in the name of Christ.

If you felt that people needed to start paying attention to these needs, how would you go about getting their attention?  Thinking out loud, I suppose I would ask Father if I could start something up (and in fact I did this though a series of classes over nine months at our parish to stress biblical literacy and knowledge of the workings of the divine services, which I felt were needed; the classes received a good response, thank God).  We should be the change we wish to see, though perhaps (I don't know this, of course) he's been stonewalled by the priest there.  If one is still convinced of the need to address these things, what should one do?  What would you do?
[/quote]

What would I do?  I would do any number of things.  If I truly believed that Islam was at the top of the list of things to preach about, I would firstly:  preach about it.  I would offer the priest sermons which I would painstakingly spend time reviewing and preparing so that they were worthy of being proclaimed to people.  I would enlighten people about the theological issues at hand, and always point to christ.  I would also hold a 3 month lecture series (the time has been shown in studies to be a good amount of time for lecture series), beginning with what History, for 3 months, Theology for 3 months and modern day issues for 3 months, all relating to islam and orthodoxy.  

After that I would analyze and provide people with surveys to analyze themselves how the lecture series went and etc.  i would bring in a guest speaker who is an expert, one for each series, and etc.  

I would supplement that by involving myself in local ecumenical dialogue with islamic groups, so that I can have a deeper appreciation of their theology and position, so that it's not just a "bash" session or the like.  

These are some preliminary thoughts.  
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« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2009, 04:37:22 AM »

Huh?
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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2009, 03:28:18 PM »

Huh?

What don't you understand, Basil?
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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2009, 07:15:06 PM »

Ortho_cat, REPLY #40,

Please don't waste your time responding to me.  I just thought, what a wack job?  He inteds to reach his objectives by standing outside of the church with a sign that has a web site address it?  No matter whether you agree with his objective or not, I think this a nutty way to accomplish anything in connection with church policy.
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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2009, 09:54:08 PM »

Ortho_cat, REPLY #40,

Please don't waste your time responding to me.  I just thought, what a wack job?  He inteds to reach his objectives by standing outside of the church with a sign that has a web site address it?  No matter whether you agree with his objective or not, I think this a nutty way to accomplish anything in connection with church policy.

Ya, the website advertisement was a fairly recent addition.  The first several times he didn't have that. 

I remember the first time I saw him there, I thought he had confused us with Islam, (maybe because of the dome?) because his sign read "Church or Islam" (which I originally thought said "Church of Islam") Many of the members were very confused at first too and thought the same thing. 
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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2009, 11:36:42 PM »

Will this "protester" go away if someone gives him $10 in McDonalds' Gift Certificates?  That usually does the trick for panhandlers in my part of the world.   Wink
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« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2009, 02:11:48 AM »

Could someone briefly explain this chap's beef, please.

He doesn't think the Church is:
1) doing enough to inform people about the dangers of Islam

I can't give a non-Political answer as to how Islam, based on its initial rapid spread and eventual conquest of the Byzantine Empire, has been manipulated into a religion of terror by think tanks.

2) preaching enough on the dangers of hell

If people don't listen to Moses, the prophets, Jesus Christ and the Saints, the hell is self-created.  What else is there to say?

3) doing enough evangelism

If I gave the "protester" $10 in McDonalds' Gift Certificates and he subsequently gave $5 in Gift Certificates to a hungry person, there is one example of evangelism right there.   Smiley
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