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« on: December 09, 2003, 11:00:56 PM »

EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
(OUTSIDE THE CHURCH NO SALVATION)


By

William J. DeTucci

Private Roman Catholic
Theologian and Scholar


One of the greatest heresies (errors) that exist today in the world is that: Christ (God) did not found one true Church (Catholic) and that there is salvation outside this Church if indeed He did found such.


The dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - Outside the Church No Salvation - is certainly on a collision course with not only heretics: (Greek Schismatics etc.; Protestants:Anglicans/Lutherans/Baptists/
Congregationalists etc., and so-called Old Catholics) but also false prophets (priests and bishops) that disguise themselves as “true”
Catholics but are really heretics and outside the Church of Christ.

Also, many laymen today claim that this dogma is “unacceptable” and does not need to be held in order to be a Catholic, but is this true? In this short pamphlet we will discover just the facts and that based upon the infallible teachings of Christ’s Catholic Church using Reason, the Holy Bible, the Church Fathers/Doctors and the Canons and Decrees of the Roman Pontiffs (Matt. 16:1 . One must not base his theology upon his “feelings” but upon truth and that which God has ordained for the salvation of mankind.

CHRIST (GOD-MAN) FOUNDS HIS CHURCH

In the Holy Gospel of St. Matthew Christ founds His Church upon St. Peter the rock (John 1:42) when Christ says: “That thou art Peter [rock]; and upon this rock [Peter] I will build my church [singular, that is, “one” Church NOT “many”], and the gates of hell [hades] shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:1 . Christ also declared that those that are outside His Church are outsiders and will be lost “And if he will not hear them: tell the church [Catholic]. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen [one that worships false gods] and publican [tax collector]” (Matt. 18:17). It is clear then that Christ founded one true Church and that outside His Church there is No Salvation (Matt. 18:17).


WHAT MAKES ONE A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST?


The Sacrament of Baptism instituted by Jesus Christ (God) makes one a member of His Church, Christ states:

“Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost [Third Divine-Person of the Blessed Trinity], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5).

Christ does not say, “Unless men alone are baptized” but that, unless a man (infant, woman, retard, old, young) be born again, that is, even including infants and retards (those with mental challenges) of water and the Holy Ghost “they cannot” enter into the kingdom of God. Man is in need of a Savior to rescue him from sin and death, and when Adam had sinned he had commit the “original sin” and thus all that descend from Adam contract this sin through the seed and birth of one’s parents beginning with Adam and Eve.

King David proclaimed:

“For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me” (Psalm 50[51]:7[5]).

St. Paul writes:

“Wherefore as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned” (Romans 5:12).

Now, of course, Jesus (God), could not commit sin or be conceived in it and His mother, Mary, was not conceived in sin for how could God who is all truth and holiness be conceived or born of sin and thus be a slave of the Devil (Satan; See: 1:John 3: ? After all, Mary was “gratia plena—full of grace” (Luke 1:2 , that is, Immaculately Conceived in her mother’s womb, St. Anne. Now, since “all” conceive sin and in need of the grace of God to restore them to the “original” state that Adam had lost, God so decided that by the means of water and the power of the Holy Ghost one would become a member of His Church, and yes, that of infants too! Protestants “object” that babies (infants) cannot choose for themselves the sacrament of baptism and therefore do not need it and can be saved. But the great “error” of Protestants (nothing more than heretics) is that they believe that “one” must make an “act of faith” in Christ in order to be saved and that (most so-called Bible-thumpers) believe that unless one do such he “cannot” be saved. But then the question is raised to them: “Infants cannot make an act of faith in Christ, therefore, according to your Protestant theology, they are damned!” This is the clear reason why Christ instituted the Sacrament of Baptism for the salvation of souls!

St. Pope Zosimus (417-418 A.D., of Greek ancestry) definitively teaches in these words Ex-Cathedra that:

"If anyone says that, because the Lord said: 'In My Father's house are many mansions,' it might be understood that in the Kingdom of Heaven there will be some middle place, or some place anywhere, where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without Baptism, without which they cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven which is life eternal: Let him be anathema [accursed]. For when the Lord says: 'Unless one be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the Kingdom of God,' what Catholic will doubt that one who has not deserved to be a co-heir with Christ will be a partner of the Devil?"

(The Council of Carthage XVI (418 A.D.), Canon 3. See also: Enchiridion-Symbolorum, 30th ed., B. Herder Book Co., London, 1954, Article 102, note 2, p. 45).

And, St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.) writes:

“Do not believe, do not say, do not teach that infants who died before being baptized can attain to forgiveness of original sins—not if you wish to be a Catholic” (De anima et eius origine, III, 9, 12).


WILL INFANTS AND RETARDS THAT DIE WITHOUT THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM SUFFER THE FIRES OF HELL?


We must not make God out to be unjust or cruel or that His designs and ways are inhumane. God says: “For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord” (Isaias 55: . God will never act unjustly! In hell there are different levels and all there will suffer or be denied certain gifts. In the case of infants and retards, they will not suffer the fires of hell reserved for the Devil and his Angels or those that die as heretics, schismatics, infidels, pagans, Jews or those that die in mortal sin. But rather, they will be in a state of blessedness (not heaven) but a part of hell that, if we shall say, is the “highest” level where no suffering is present. Hell is nothing more than the “loss” of the beatific vision of God.

Pope John XXII (1316-1334 A.D.) taught infallibly Ex-Cathedra that:

“(The Roman Church) teachesGǪthat the soulsGǪof those who die in mortal sin, or with only original sin descend immediately into hell; however, to be punished with different penalties and in different places”

(Letter: “Nequaquam sine dolore” to the Armenians, Nov. 21, 1321. Enchiridion-Symbolorum, 30th ed., B. Herder Book Co., London, 1954, Article 493a, p.193. See also: “Benedictus Deus,” by Pope Benedict XII, Jan. 29, 1336, Article 530, pp. 197-198 of the same work above).

DOES THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM PROFIT THOSE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH OF CHRIST?

No, the Sacrament of Baptism does not profit those (above the age of reason: 7 or so) outside the Church of Christ.

Pope Benedict XIV (1740-1758 A.D.) declares Ex-Cathedra that:

“We hold it for certain that those baptized by heretics are separated from the Church and deprived of all the blessings enjoyed by her members, if they have arrived at the age of discretion and have adhered to the errors of their sect”

(Singulari nos, Feb. 9, 1749).

Baptism is valid only with water and in this form: “I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost [Spirit],” and with the intention to do what the Church does which is to use the proper matter (water) the form (the words) and the intent to make one a Christian etc. The object of faith is necessary for those who have attained the use of reason and so baptism given even with all the elements mentioned above will not “profit anyone” if it is not had with the true Catholic faith - infants and retards are excluded for they “lack” the use of reason but are in need of baptism for it washes away “original sin” in them - but when a child (mentally sound) reaches the age of reason he must profess the “essentials” of the Catholic faith in order to “remain” a member of the Catholic Church. “Anyone” baptized by a Jew, pagan, Greek so-called Orthodox Christian or Protestant is “valid” as long as the baptism follows the following three elements: Water, Form (words) and Intention. But baptism is only valid and efficacious (effective) in these cases: 1. When one is not baptized and seeking baptism and desirous of the Catholic faith and contrite for his sins. 2. When an infant or retard is baptized. Now, when baptism is given “outside” the Church of Christ and that person is not seeking the true faith, that person receives it (as long as the three elements are meet) “validly” but without merit or efficacious to their salvation.

St. Bonaventure (1221-1274 A.D.) writes:

“Once these conditions [intention of Orders] are present, the sacraments may be conferred by either the good or the wicked, the faithful or the heretical, within the Church or outside it: but within the Church, they are conferred both in fact and in effect, while outside it, although conferred in fact, they are not effective”

(The Beviloquium, Part VI, Chapter 5, Article 1).

St. Augustine of Hippo writes:

“Outside the Catholic Church everything may be had except salvation. One may have orders [holy] and sacraments, one may sing Alleluia and answer Amen, one may hold [touch] the Gospel, one may have and preach in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, but nowhere except in the Catholic Church can one find salvation”

(Sermo ad Caesariensis ecclesiae plebem, VI).


WHAT ARE THE ESSENTIAL POINTS OF FAITH THAT ONE MUST BELIEVE IN TO BE A CATHOLIC ABOVE THE AGE OF REASON?


What one must believe in, is: that there is One God; that He is a Rewarder of the Good and Punisher of the Evil Doer; the Incarnation of Christ; the Holy Trinity; the Divinity and Humanity of Jesus Christ; that Christ is the Second Person of the Divine Trinity; that Christ founded One True Church (Catholic); the Ten Commandments; the Authority of a True and Valid Roman Pontiff; the Infallibility of a True and Valid Roman Pontiff; the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ; the Sacraments of (at least, as in the case of the newly baptized) Baptism, Eucharist and Penance (the other sacraments are necessary to believe in but if one died without a knowledge that was not “deliberate or negligent” upon his part he could be saved) and to implicitly hold to all the other articles of faith.

Pope Clement XI (1700-1721 A.D.) responded to a question raised to him about what is necessary for belief concerning a dying non-baptized person seeking baptism and the Catholic faith, the pope answers:

“A promise is not sufficient, but a missionary is bound to explain to an adult, even a dying one who is not entirely incapacitated, the mysteries of faith which are necessary by a necessity of means, as are especially of the Trinity and the Incarnation”


(Enchiridion-Symbolorum, 30th ed., B. Herder Book Co., London, 1954, Article 1349a, p. 345). Take note reader, that: The Pontiff does not exclude other articles of faith but that the first understanding of the Catholic faith is the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of Christ and then the other points of the faith too!


WHAT OF THOSE THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF CHRIST OR HIS TRUE CHURCH, CAN THEY BE SAVED TOO?

God will not command the impossible but has made it so that: “Who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth” (1:Tim. 2:4). A boss will not command an employee to work a week straight with no breaks etc. If a boss did such a thing he would be unjust and commanding the “impossible.” In like manner, God will not ordain or sanction something in which it would be “impossible” for one to know or love Him. But we must keep in mind that our ways are not His and He does as He wills.

St. John Chrysostom (347-407 A.D.) teaches: “One should not think that ignorance excuses the non-believerGǪWhen you are ignorant of what can easily be known, you have to suffer the penaltyGǪWhen we do all that is in our power, in matters where we lack knowledge, God will give us his hand; but if we do not do what we can, we do not enjoy God’s help eitherGǪSo do not say: ‘How is it that God has neglected that sincere and honest pagan?’ You will find that he has not really been diligent in seeking the truth, since what concerns the truth is now clearer than the sun. How shall they obtain pardon who, when they see the doctrine of truth spread before them, make no effort to come to know it? For now the name of God is proclaimed to all, what the prophets predicted has come true, and the religion of the pagans has been proven falseGǪIt is impossible that anyone who is vigilant in seeking the truth should be contemned [scorned] by God” (In Epsit. Ad Rom. Hom. 26:3-4; PG 60:641-42). When Jonas the Prophet was sent by God to Ninive, He told Jonas He would destroy the people for they knew not their left hand from their right (Jonas 4:11). Ignorance does not excuse from the Law of God.

St. Thomas Aquinas (1255-1274 A.D.) teaches: “If anyone were brought up in the wilderness or among brute animals, provided that he followed his natural reason in seeking the good and avoiding the evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him, by an inner inspiration, what must be believed, or would send a preacher to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius” (De veritate, q. 14, a. 11, ad 1; ed. Parma 9:246).


CAN THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS CHANGE IN MEANING OR MEAN SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHAT IT ALREADY MEANS?

 The great heresy among so-called Catholics is that dogma can evolve or mean something different then it already means, which has been condemned by Christ and His Apostles, as well as the Church He founded upon St. Peter (Matt. 16:1. God states: “For I am the Lord, and I change not” (Malachias 3:6). St. Paul writes: “Jesus Christ, yesterday, and to day; and the same forever” (Hebrews 13:.

The Vatican Council (1870 A.D.) taught Ex-Cathedra that:

“Hence, also, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is perpetually to be retained which our holy Mother the Church has once declared; nor is that meaning ever to be departed from, under the pretence or pretext of a deeper comprehension of them” (Chapter IV, Of Faith and Reason).

And also:

 “If anyone shall assert it to be possible that sometimes, according to the progress of science, a sense is to be given to doctrines propounded by the Church different from that which the Church has understood and understands; let him be anathema” (Canon III, Of Faith and Reason).

St. Pope Pius X (1903-1914 A.D.) declares Ex-Cathedra:

“Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously”

(Oath Against Modernism; Motu proprio Sacrorum antistitum, Sept. 1, 1910. Enchiridion symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum. 30th ed., B. Herder Book Co., London, 1954, Articles: 2145-2147, pp. 549-551).


WHAT ARE SOME OF THE “OFFICAL” AND “INFALLIBLY TAUGHT” TEACHINGS OF CHRIST’S CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE DOGMA OF EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS?
Pope Innocent III (1198-1216 A.D.) dogmatically and infallibly upholds and defends the faith of Christ and the Holy Apostles in these solemn words Ex-Cathedra:

“We firmly believe and simply confessGǪthat there is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which there is ABSOLUTELY no salvation for anyone”

(The IV Lateran Ecumenical Council [1215 A.D.], Section: 1. On the Catholic Faith. See also: Enchiridion symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum. 30th ed., B. Herder Book Co., London, 1954, Articles: 482/430, pp. 168-169).

Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303 A.D.) dogmatically defines the dogma of complete submission to a valid and canonically elected Roman Pontiff in these infallible God-given words Ex-Cathedra:

“With faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church, and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor the remission of sinsGǪWe declare, say, define and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff”

(Papal Bull Unam Sanctum, 1302 A.D. See also: Enchiridion symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum. 30th ed., B. Herder Book Co., London, 1954, Articles: 468/469, pp. 186-187).

Pope Clement V (1305-1314 A.D.) infallibly decrees and ratifies Ex-Cathedra that:

Pope Eugene IV (1431-1447 A.D.) invoking the Holy Ghost defines Ex-Cathedra:

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches, that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire, ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels, (Matt. 25:41)’ unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety, and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church”

(The Papal Bull Cantate Domino, 1441 A.D. See also: Enchiridion symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum. 30th ed., B. Herder Book Co., London, 1954, Article: 714, p. 230).


IN CONCLUSION OF THIS CATHOLIC DOGMA


To call into question the Catholic Dogma of Christ that there is no salvation outside the Church is tantamount to stating that Christ did not found One true Church and that He (Christ) is not true God and true Man. If the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is not true in its “strictest form” according to Modernists and so-called Catholics, then what is the point of believing anything that Christ has revealed or that of His Church? For, if this dogma is not true then - all other dogmas are rendered null, void and without potency for they all gain their strength from the one on salvation, which damns those that reject any of Christ’s teachings and of His Holy Catholic Church. In conclusion to this well-known dogma the words of St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.) are cited:

“Roma locuta est, causa finita est - Rome has spoken, the case is closed”

(Sermon 131, Chapter 10, note 10. See also: Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius XI Ad Salutem, “On St. Augustine,” Article 17, note 31, April 30, 1930).


Lastly, who founded your religion?

1. Greek Schismatic Church founded by Photius (man) in the 9th century A.D. and in 1054 A.D. by Michael C(K)erularius (man).
2. Lutheran Church founded by Martin Luther (man) in 1517 A.D.
3. Anglican Church founded by King Henry VIII (man) in 1532 A.D.
4. Baptist Church founded by John Smith (man) in 1606 A.D.
5. Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ (God and Man) in the year 33 A.D. upon St. Peter (Matt. 16:1 the rock (John 1:42) outside of which there is No Salvation (Matt. 18:17).

For more information write to:


CATHOLIC TRADITIONS
P.O. BOX 285025
BOSTON, MASS. 02228
USA
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2003, 11:04:25 PM »

In the Holy Gospel of St. Matthew Christ founds His Church upon St. Peter the rock (John 1:42)...

Yada, Yada, Yada....

Needs to be moved to Orthodox-Catholic board.

I was stunned when I hit this heading:

WILL INFANTS AND RETARDS THAT DIE WITHOUT THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM SUFFER THE FIRES OF HELL?

But then I looked and saw that this is from a speech given in the 1930's.
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2003, 11:05:22 PM »

Option 5 - the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of the East!

Here we go again...

Demetri
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2003, 11:09:50 PM »

Wow!  I am amused.
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2003, 11:13:05 PM »

Oh, no . . .

Why are we experiencing one extreme after another here lately?

ROAC tells us we're "graceless heretics." Now I'm told we're "Greek schismatics."

And here I am, a "Greek schismatic" who kind of likes the Pope!

I can't win!  Grin
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2003, 11:22:05 PM »

HAHHAHAAHAHHAHA

THIS IS AWESOME!!!
I LOVE READING THIS STUFF

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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2003, 11:26:57 PM »

I'm a proud FEENEYITE

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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2003, 11:28:50 PM »

I love it, too!  But I am not a Feeneyite...njan oru ekaswabavavadikanaakunnu.
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2003, 11:30:37 PM »

hey since those popes were graceless heretics why does anyone care what they wrote?! Wink
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2003, 11:31:33 PM »

Because you're a Greek So-Called Orthodox Graceless Schismatic...
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2003, 09:35:21 AM »

Vlad,

From your post it seems your in category 6. Feeneyite, Sedevacantist Sect. Founded by various excommunicated priests.

Please go by the Catechism of the Catholic Church or any document the Pope has written in the last thirty to forty years and cite those, not a tract by a private theologian.

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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2003, 11:01:04 AM »

vlad: thank you for proving my point for me. Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2003, 11:05:25 AM »

vicki: that what rome once taught is no longer taught and that infallibility was a mistake.
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2003, 11:12:00 AM »

vicki: wehat he got banned already? after only three posts?? :'(
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2003, 11:14:15 AM »

WHO BANNED HIM??

I certainly didn't and he doesn't look banned in the logs??

What gives?
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2003, 11:21:21 AM »

roberto: vicki said the cave troll got removed I just assumed he got banned . . . .
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2003, 11:22:29 AM »

In the Holy Gospel of St. Matthew Christ founds His Church upon St. Peter the rock (John 1:42)...

I was stunned when I hit this heading:

WILL INFANTS AND RETARDS THAT DIE WITHOUT THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM SUFFER THE FIRES OF HELL?

But then I looked and saw that this is from a speech given in the 1930's.


Slava Isusu Christu!

When I saw that, I wanted to make our esteemed mods give me his IP address, find out where he is, and, well...let's just say I wouldn't be very Christian for a time (but then again, according to some certain folks, I'm not a Christian at all...okay, cheap shot!).

Nothing ticks me off more than such comments.  This guy obviously knows no one who is mentally disabled.
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2003, 11:29:41 AM »

schultz: not everyone is into being PC.
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2003, 11:32:09 AM »

schultz: not everyone is into being PC.

Oh, Br. Max!

According the mentally disabled their fair share of dignity is not "PC," it's Christian.

Schultz was absolutely right.
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2003, 11:32:57 AM »

schultz: not everyone is into being PC.

You are showing your ignorance again.
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2003, 11:38:57 AM »

schultz: not everyone is into being PC.

Oh, Br. Max!

According the mentally disabled their fair share of dignity is not "PC," it's Christian.

Schultz was absolutely right.

Linus: I'm not saying shultz is wrong, I'm just saying that not everyone is into being PC.  BESIDES the text was written what 70 years ago?  Lets not forget that words we now use as insults and deem very politically incorrect are - or at least were medical terms.  I’m not going to judge the past on today’s sensabilities.
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2003, 11:41:14 AM »

It has NOTHING to do with being Poilitically Correct Max. It has to do with compassion.

Get a hold of your pride and just say you were wrong.
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2003, 11:42:50 AM »

TOMS GOT A MOUSTACHE!!!

You look Uber-French.!
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« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2003, 11:46:01 AM »

TOMS GOT A MOUSTACHE!!!

You look Uber-French.!

French? French?!! French!!! YOU BASTARD!!!
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« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2003, 11:46:46 AM »

I was wrong.  I should have judged a man for using a term 70 years ago that is deemed unacceptable TODAY.  forgive me.  I will work harder to judge the past without understanding it. Sad  Forgive me.
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« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2003, 11:49:06 AM »

TOMS GOT A MOUSTACHE!!!

You look Uber-French.!

I think he looks more like a German physicist.  Grin
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« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2003, 11:49:24 AM »

schultz: not everyone is into being PC.

Slava Isusu Christu!

That may be true, but if I had posted a speech by Father Coughlin, one of the more vile ones where he uses the so called "n-word" and "k-word", everyone would be as angry as I am.  My sister works with mentally disabled kids and one of my best friend's brother has Down's.  

I do not take the word "retard" lightly.  Even "mentally retarded" would be fine.  But to call someone a "retard" (and then repeat it 70 years down the line) makes that person's disability their entire personhood, taking away their humanity and reducing them to "subhuman" status, rather than allowing them simple human dignity.

I hope that made sense.  I'm still a bit peeved about it.
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« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2003, 11:50:03 AM »

Yes. I AM German (with a little Irish and Scotch from my mothers side)
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« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2003, 11:54:24 AM »

shultz: we cannot judge the past by the standards of today.  70 years ago Retard was an acceptable abbreviation of Mentally RETARDed.
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« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2003, 11:56:02 AM »

OK Topic is going to get locked.

It has definitely deviated from its original title.

BObby
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