Author Topic: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic  (Read 7388 times)

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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2009, 07:24:11 PM »

If Orthodoxy were to ever to ordain women or allow gay unions (or priests), RC's would probably pave the way first.

Homosexuals are already allowed to be priests (given the requisite that they are celibate). I just thought it important to point out that it is erroneous to suggest that there is no such thing as gay priests of any form.



Of course this goes back to whether one considers homosexuality as a permanent affliction (from which there is no cure), or simply another sinful tendency which Christ is able to heal.

The Church views homosexuality as the latter, and therefore considers the priest with homosexual passions no different from anyone else that struggles in various forms of sin.
Do you then believe that a person who struggles with homosexual attractions can be re-oriented to only having heterosexual attractions?

By the grace of God, yes. I don't think there's anything beyond his healing powers.

No one will deny that. Whether or not this is God's intent is the more pertinent question.

Is it not ultimately part of God's intent, even if not immediately? I'm asking this in ignorance, not rhetorically. My fuzzy theology would be that nothing happens without God, but that may be bad theology too.

No, I'm not sure that homosexual orientation is something that is not part of God's ultimate plan for some of us.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2009, 07:28:27 PM »

From what i've read, the Bible clearly attributes such activity (homosexual activity) to a deviant lifetyle,

The idea that there is anything clear about the Bible's treatment of homosexuality seems pretty naive to me.

Besides, the issue of the status of homosexual behavior is distinct from the issue of the status of homosexual orientation, which is what I thought we were currently talking about.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2009, 08:19:13 PM »

From what i've read, the Bible clearly attributes such activity (homosexual activity) to a deviant lifetyle,

The idea that there is anything clear about the Bible's treatment of homosexuality seems pretty naive to me.

Besides, the issue of the status of homosexual behavior is distinct from the issue of the status of homosexual orientation, which is what I thought we were currently talking about.

Well I suppose my priest and I are naive then. I am quite familiar with what the bible has to say about such matters, and it seems to be rather explicit to me. Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to "alternate" interpretation of these verses which does not outrightly condemn homosexuality?

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Orientation (in this sense) is nothing more than a tendency or propensity to indulge in one particular sin. Christ makes no distinction between our passions and the sins that they invoke.  We are to remain pure in thought and in deed.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2009, 08:23:30 PM »

From what i've read, the Bible clearly attributes such activity (homosexual activity) to a deviant lifetyle,

The idea that there is anything clear about the Bible's treatment of homosexuality seems pretty naive to me.

Besides, the issue of the status of homosexual behavior is distinct from the issue of the status of homosexual orientation, which is what I thought we were currently talking about.
No, we're talking about Dr. Williams' statement about what he thinks is the future of Christianity. But who would want to discuss that when we can talk about sex?
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Offline GiC

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2009, 08:25:48 PM »

From what i've read, the Bible clearly attributes such activity (homosexual activity) to a deviant lifetyle,

The idea that there is anything clear about the Bible's treatment of homosexuality seems pretty naive to me.

Besides, the issue of the status of homosexual behavior is distinct from the issue of the status of homosexual orientation, which is what I thought we were currently talking about.
No, we're talking about Dr. Williams' statement about what he thinks is the future of Christianity. But who would want to discuss that when we can talk about sex?

It's the first rule of marketing...'sex sells' ;)
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2009, 08:39:02 PM »
What is it with you guys and sex?
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Papist

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2009, 08:49:35 PM »
^ Aren't the crosses that God gives blessings indeed?

Indeed we are to be thankful to God for any difficulties, trials, or burdens that arise in our life. Because by overcoming them through the power of Christ, this strengthens our relationship and confidence in Him, and serves as a testimony to others. For this same reason, people sometimes say that cancer or some other illness has been a blessing to them, after having overcome a battle with such, and realizing the power of God. This doesn't mean that we are to use these gifts from God as an excuse to justify or to defend a particular lifestyle aside from that in Christ, or to use them as means to our own ends.
I don't disagree with you.
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Offline Vlad

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2009, 08:55:33 PM »
The way I took it, deusveritasest was frustrated with Vlad because Vlad was confused by GiC's accusations concerning misogyny and homophobia, when Vlad had obviously made misogynistic and homophobic comments.  Also, deusveritasest supports exclusive homosexual unions.

What did I say that was misogynistic that women cant be Priests I was taught that that was the Churches position by my spiritual father. What was homophobic that gay marriage is wrong. Thats an opinion just because it may not be someone elses does not make it homophobic or is free speech limited by political correctness?

The line of thinking that GiC was labeling your opinions as misogynistic and homophobic I am finding doesn't even make sense given that your first post in the thread occurred several minutes after GiC made the mention of misogyny and homophobia.  ???
Thats kinda what I thought. ;)

Offline Vlad

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2009, 08:58:31 PM »

From what i've read, the Bible clearly attributes such activity (homosexual activity) to a deviant lifetyle,

The idea that there is anything clear about the Bible's treatment of homosexuality seems pretty naive to me.

Besides, the issue of the status of homosexual behavior is distinct from the issue of the status of homosexual orientation, which is what I thought we were currently talking about.

Well I suppose my priest and I are naive then. I am quite familiar with what the bible has to say about such matters, and it seems to be rather explicit to me. Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to "alternate" interpretation of these verses which does not outrightly condemn homosexuality?

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Orientation (in this sense) is nothing more than a tendency or propensity to indulge in one particular sin. Christ makes no distinction between our passions and the sins that they invoke.  We are to remain pure in thought and in deed.

There is no other way to interpret them Ortho_cat and if you and your Priest are naive so am I and the last two Priests I have had. ::) Its just PC revisionism.

Offline Vlad

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2009, 08:59:28 PM »
^ Aren't the crosses that God gives blessings indeed?

Indeed we are to be thankful to God for any difficulties, trials, or burdens that arise in our life. Because by overcoming them through the power of Christ, this strengthens our relationship and confidence in Him, and serves as a testimony to others. For this same reason, people sometimes say that cancer or some other illness has been a blessing to them, after having overcome a battle with such, and realizing the power of God. This doesn't mean that we are to use these gifts from God as an excuse to justify or to defend a particular lifestyle aside from that in Christ, or to use them as means to our own ends.

Yep

Offline Papist

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2009, 08:59:46 PM »

From what i've read, the Bible clearly attributes such activity (homosexual activity) to a deviant lifetyle,

The idea that there is anything clear about the Bible's treatment of homosexuality seems pretty naive to me.

Besides, the issue of the status of homosexual behavior is distinct from the issue of the status of homosexual orientation, which is what I thought we were currently talking about.

Well I suppose my priest and I are naive then. I am quite familiar with what the bible has to say about such matters, and it seems to be rather explicit to me. Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to "alternate" interpretation of these verses which does not outrightly condemn homosexuality?

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Orientation (in this sense) is nothing more than a tendency or propensity to indulge in one particular sin. Christ makes no distinction between our passions and the sins that they invoke.  We are to remain pure in thought and in deed.

There is no other way to interpret them Ortho_cat and if you and your Priest are naive so am I and the last two Priests I have had. ::) Its just PC revisionism.
Seems pretty clear. But I am not EO.
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Offline Vlad

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2009, 09:19:23 PM »

From what i've read, the Bible clearly attributes such activity (homosexual activity) to a deviant lifetyle,

The idea that there is anything clear about the Bible's treatment of homosexuality seems pretty naive to me.

Besides, the issue of the status of homosexual behavior is distinct from the issue of the status of homosexual orientation, which is what I thought we were currently talking about.

Well I suppose my priest and I are naive then. I am quite familiar with what the bible has to say about such matters, and it seems to be rather explicit to me. Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to "alternate" interpretation of these verses which does not outrightly condemn homosexuality?

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Orientation (in this sense) is nothing more than a tendency or propensity to indulge in one particular sin. Christ makes no distinction between our passions and the sins that they invoke.  We are to remain pure in thought and in deed.

There is no other way to interpret them Ortho_cat and if you and your Priest are naive so am I and the last two Priests I have had. ::) Its just PC revisionism.
Seems pretty clear. But I am not EO.

Well I was told by my last Priest that retired that our position on women Priests and homosexuality is the same as what I was coming from namely Catholicism so there shouldnt be much of a diff.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2009, 10:57:04 PM »

Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to "alternate" interpretation of these verses which does not outrightly condemn homosexuality?

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

That cannot be properly interpreted because it isn't even an accurate translation to begin with.


Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

This is in the middle of a chapter that is entirely about idolatry. To suggest that a passage intended to be about homosexuality was just plopped right into the middle of a chapter all about idolatry is pretty ridiculous. This is rather referring to the use of same gender sexual acts in the pagan fertility rituals, not for the purpose of satiating homosexual desires.


Orientation (in this sense) is nothing more than a tendency or propensity to indulge in one particular sin.

No. Orientation is about who one finds sexually appealing. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with wanting to engage in sexual acts.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: All These People Would Rather Talk About Gay Marriage Than Stay On Topic
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2009, 10:59:38 PM »

There is no other way to interpret them Ortho_cat

You're denying that there exist alternative interpretations? I can cite hard evidence that you would be wrong about that.


Its just PC revisionism.

So you say. I don't agree.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 10:59:53 PM by deusveritasest »
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