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Poll
Question: Should non-EO members identify their affiliation and/or not respond to EO questions?
Things are fine the way they are. - 33 (49.3%)
All non-EO membes should identify their religious affiliation. - 23 (34.3%)
All non-EO members should refrain from answering EO questions pertaining to the EO faith. - 3 (4.5%)
Both (2) and (3) - 8 (11.9%)
Total Voters: 67

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Salpy
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« Reply #90 on: November 07, 2009, 01:22:53 AM »

Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum).

Thank you, George, for confirming this.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 01:23:23 AM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: November 07, 2009, 01:44:18 AM »

We can just agree to disagree and move on or we can draw this out another couple of pages with meaningless back-and-forth.
A third option is to actually deal with the issues being discussed rather than getting caught up in questioning the motives of the agent of the other side of the argument.
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« Reply #92 on: November 07, 2009, 01:44:56 AM »

Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum).

Thank you, George, for confirming this.

No problem! Just stating the obvious.
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« Reply #93 on: November 07, 2009, 01:49:53 AM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.

Well hell, rePete, I thought we done buried that hatchet.  Huh  It makes me sad that you don't like me still.  Kiss
Yeah, that hatchet remains buried and is not one of those past dealings I'm talking about here, so I wonder why you have to bring it up of all the possible incidents you could cite.  (BTW, you're really not helping your cause by trotting out such unwelcome and disrespectful nicknames as "RePete".  Such indecencies only serve to confirm those statements that you're being rude and dismissive.)  I'm actually referring to all those times in the past that you've whined about something.

Also note that I've said nothing on this thread about whether I like you or not, so I wonder why you feel the need to assume that I have and take everything I've said so personally.  The only thing I've criticized on this thread is your request that people identify their faith traditions (which they're already encouraged to do) and that non-EO not post on the Convert, Faith Issues, and Liturgy boards (one of those being the board I moderate).

"...based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past."

  Based on the thousands of other posts where other people bring up their concerns, and since the moderators have extended the invitation to voice our concerns, well gosh PtA, I thought I could join y'all's party too.  But when you say things like the above, you make me out to be some sort of troublemaker or agitator.  I don't know about you, but these kinds of things don't sit well with me and when I feel like someone's knocking on my door, better believe I'm answering.
Even if it means diminishing your request by confirming the negative opinions others have expressed of what you hope to accomplish with this thread? Huh

You see, Gabriel, I've been completely forthright with what I think about your requests, just as so many others have been.  Would you wish that I had done any differently?  You asked for opinions, and I gave you mine.  As you can see, I'm not the only one who doesn't like what you're asking for.  That's all I'm saying here.
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« Reply #94 on: November 07, 2009, 02:19:44 AM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.

Well hell, rePete, I thought we done buried that hatchet.  Huh  It makes me sad that you don't like me still.  Kiss
Yeah, that hatchet remains buried and is not one of those past dealings I'm talking about here, so I wonder why you have to bring it up of all the possible incidents you could cite.  (BTW, you're really not helping your cause by trotting out such unwelcome and disrespectful nicknames as "RePete".  Such indecencies only serve to confirm those statements that you're being rude and dismissive.)  I'm actually referring to all those times in the past that you've whined about something.

Also note that I've said nothing on this thread about whether I like you or not, so I wonder why you feel the need to assume that I have and take everything I've said so personally.  The only thing I've criticized on this thread is your request that people identify their faith traditions (which they're already encouraged to do) and that non-EO not post on the Convert, Faith Issues, and Liturgy boards (one of those being the board I moderate).

"...based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past."

  Based on the thousands of other posts where other people bring up their concerns, and since the moderators have extended the invitation to voice our concerns, well gosh PtA, I thought I could join y'all's party too.  But when you say things like the above, you make me out to be some sort of troublemaker or agitator.  I don't know about you, but these kinds of things don't sit well with me and when I feel like someone's knocking on my door, better believe I'm answering.
Even if it means diminishing your request by confirming the negative opinions others have expressed of what you hope to accomplish with this thread? Huh

You see, Gabriel, I've been completely forthright with what I think about your requests, just as so many others have been.  Would you wish that I had done any differently?  You asked for opinions, and I gave you mine.  As you can see, I'm not the only one who doesn't like what you're asking for.  That's all I'm saying here.

 OK.  As it stands now, 24 folks like things the way they are now.  That's the way they feel and I can appreciate that.  Now 17 folks voted #2 with an additional 6 who voted for option #4 meaning they too want people to distinguish their faith affiliation.  This means there are 23 folks who agree with option #2.  So, the way I look at is that it's pretty much a tie at this point.  When y'all get upset with me, you're actually getting upset with 22 others as well.  What do you have to say about those folks?  Sure, I started the thread, but I just voiced what others are thinking.  But you know what?  Even if I were the only one who voted for #2 I wouldn't care; I've put some thought into this issue, feel very strongly about it and I ain't changing my mind.  Period.  But neither you nor I make the decisions around here.  That's all I'm gonna say about it now because it's pointless to go any further.  The admins will either change things or they won't. 

And in the future, if I have something to say about something else that's on my mind, I'll say it.  So don't think that just because this is my last post on this matter means that I can be bullied.   
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« Reply #95 on: November 07, 2009, 02:35:43 AM »

Quote
What do you have to say about those folks?

Well, to the 41 people* who think that posters should not be banned from posting in certain sub-forums, though they should probably say up front what their religious affiliation is, I would say: I agree with you, and there's not really anything else that needs to be said. As for the 9 who would like non-EO to be banned from posting in certain sub-forums, I don't really have anything to say other than, you have your opinion and I understand why you have it, even though I disagree.


*And presumably 47+ people if non-EO were voting in this poll.
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« Reply #96 on: November 07, 2009, 04:41:42 AM »

Even if it means diminishing your request by confirming the negative opinions others have expressed of what you hope to accomplish with this thread? Huh

You see, Gabriel, I've been completely forthright with what I think about your requests, just as so many others have been.  Would you wish that I had done any differently?  You asked for opinions, and I gave you mine.  As you can see, I'm not the only one who doesn't like what you're asking for.  That's all I'm saying here.

 OK.  As it stands now, 24 folks like things the way they are now.  That's the way they feel and I can appreciate that.  Now 17 folks voted #2 with an additional 6 who voted for option #4 meaning they too want people to distinguish their faith affiliation.  This means there are 23 folks who agree with option #2.  So, the way I look at is that it's pretty much a tie at this point.
I suppose you can read the poll statistics any way you like, but you're only looking at half the picture.  You also suggested that non-EO should not post on three of our moderated boards.  Only 9 of the 50 who voted thus far (18%) voiced their agreement with this other suggestion by voting for Options 3 and 4.  When you look at that, I don't think you have anywhere near the support for the whole of your agenda as you like to think.

When y'all get upset with me, you're actually getting upset with 22 others as well.
Your attempt to play the numbers game is not working.  You are the one who initiated this thread, and it is therefore only to you and your ideas that I and many others here have responded.  The fact that 22 others happen to agree with one of your suggestions is immaterial.  It is you and you alone who started this thread by asking for a vote on your suggestions, so it is with you and you alone that I have my beef.

BTW, you're missing the very point of my presence on this thread.  I might actually have been more open to considering your suggestions if you didn't look so much as if you were whining and trying to draw public sympathy to your side.

What do you have to say about those folks?  Sure, I started the thread, but I just voiced what others are thinking.
And I also voiced what some others are thinking.

But you know what?  Even if I were the only one who voted for #2 I wouldn't care; I've put some thought into this issue, feel very strongly about it and I ain't changing my mind.  Period.
But what about Options 3 & 4?  Have you forgotten that you put those up for a vote as well?

But neither you nor I make the decisions around here.  That's all I'm gonna say about it now because it's pointless to go any further.  The admins will either change things or they won't. 

And in the future, if I have something to say about something else that's on my mind, I'll say it.  So don't think that just because this is my last post on this matter means that I can be bullied.   
Who's trying to bully you?  You asked for opinions, and you got them.  If you don't want people to voice negative opinions about what you would like to see happen around here, don't put your vision up for a vote and ask us to respond.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 04:51:49 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #97 on: November 07, 2009, 08:51:38 AM »

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.
I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO.  It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.

Fine, you're free to ignore my postings in those forums.

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« Reply #98 on: November 07, 2009, 10:33:19 AM »

I have a question about the second option:

Quote
All non-EO membes should identify their religious affiliation.

Does this mean that EO's don't have to identify their religious affiliations?  So the OO's, Catholics and others would have to put what they are, but the EO's could leave the space blank?

If someone is leaving it blank, how do you know if they are an EO, or someone from another Church who just didn't fill it out?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 10:35:21 AM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #99 on: November 07, 2009, 01:57:59 PM »

Even if it means diminishing your request by confirming the negative opinions others have expressed of what you hope to accomplish with this thread? Huh

You see, Gabriel, I've been completely forthright with what I think about your requests, just as so many others have been.  Would you wish that I had done any differently?  You asked for opinions, and I gave you mine.  As you can see, I'm not the only one who doesn't like what you're asking for.  That's all I'm saying here.

 OK.  As it stands now, 24 folks like things the way they are now.  That's the way they feel and I can appreciate that.  Now 17 folks voted #2 with an additional 6 who voted for option #4 meaning they too want people to distinguish their faith affiliation.  This means there are 23 folks who agree with option #2.  So, the way I look at is that it's pretty much a tie at this point.
I suppose you can read the poll statistics any way you like, but you're only looking at half the picture.  You also suggested that non-EO should not post on three of our moderated boards.  Only 9 of the 50 who voted thus far (18%) voiced their agreement with this other suggestion by voting for Options 3 and 4.  When you look at that, I don't think you have anywhere near the support for the whole of your agenda as you like to think.

When y'all get upset with me, you're actually getting upset with 22 others as well.
Your attempt to play the numbers game is not working.  You are the one who initiated this thread, and it is therefore only to you and your ideas that I and many others here have responded.  The fact that 22 others happen to agree with one of your suggestions is immaterial.  It is you and you alone who started this thread by asking for a vote on your suggestions, so it is with you and you alone that I have my beef.

BTW, you're missing the very point of my presence on this thread.  I might actually have been more open to considering your suggestions if you didn't look so much as if you were whining and trying to draw public sympathy to your side.

What do you have to say about those folks?  Sure, I started the thread, but I just voiced what others are thinking.
And I also voiced what some others are thinking.

But you know what?  Even if I were the only one who voted for #2 I wouldn't care; I've put some thought into this issue, feel very strongly about it and I ain't changing my mind.  Period.
But what about Options 3 & 4?  Have you forgotten that you put those up for a vote as well?

But neither you nor I make the decisions around here.  That's all I'm gonna say about it now because it's pointless to go any further.  The admins will either change things or they won't. 

And in the future, if I have something to say about something else that's on my mind, I'll say it.  So don't think that just because this is my last post on this matter means that I can be bullied.   
Who's trying to bully you?  You asked for opinions, and you got them.
 

 I'll give you an example of what I was talking about.  Salpy, Ozgeorge and Papist, just to name a few, all strongly disagree with me.  But if you compare their kind and polite sentiments with a few of the others, you'll see what I mean.  Some of those other responses are just downright mean and nasty.  From one standpoint, that's not OK.  From another standpoint, that's their right.  I'm just saying that that dog won't hunt with me.  And as far as reading the numbers goes, I never took statistics so I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but it looks like I've got a good point.   
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« Reply #100 on: November 07, 2009, 02:01:16 PM »

I have a question about the second option:

Quote
All non-EO membes should identify their religious affiliation.

Does this mean that EO's don't have to identify their religious affiliations?  So the OO's, Catholics and others would have to put what they are, but the EO's could leave the space blank?


 I guess I failed there, Salpy.  Embarrassed  Thanks for pointing that out.  The way I had envisioned it, no one would be exempt.  If someone has something to say, be totally upfront about it.
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« Reply #101 on: November 07, 2009, 02:49:57 PM »

I think diversity is great. I think it's wonderful that former EOs and others enjoy spending time here and are free to comment-their input is valuable too!
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« Reply #102 on: November 08, 2009, 03:45:28 AM »

I was thinking on and off today about the OC.Net; how it's NOT, afterall, an Eastern Orthodox site, and my thoughts on everyone identifying their faith affiliation and it occurred to me about how confusion could (and does) occur.  For example, when you look at the main page, you find headings such as "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion- Discussions related to Orthodoxy in comparison and contrast to other Christian faiths" and "Orthodox Family Forum- Discussion of items related to Orthodox parenting".  When reading these headings, it's easy to assume that when you see the word 'Orthodox' here, it must be Eastern Orthodox.  The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.]) and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
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« Reply #103 on: November 08, 2009, 04:20:52 AM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])
Technically, for 99.99% of our moderators to be EO, we would need a staff of 10,000 moderators.  Do you really want this forum to be that tightly moderated? Wink

and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
Then again, maybe the answer is for you to take full responsibility for learning who we are and what we're about rather than blame other persons for your confusion.
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« Reply #104 on: November 08, 2009, 04:34:19 AM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])
Technically, for 99.99% of our moderators to be EO, we would need a staff of 10,000 moderators.  Do you really want this forum to be that tightly moderated? Wink

and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
Then again, maybe the answer is for you to take full responsibility for learning who we are and what we're about rather than blame other persons for your confusion.

How is trying to help the site become better and more user friendly 'blaming'?  And remember, opinions and advice are openly solicited by the Admins so if you don't like me participating, maybe you should take it up with them.   
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« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2009, 07:52:11 AM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])   
(SNIP) 
Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 

I'm going to continue staying out of this one.  I appreciate the feedback, even if I don't agree with many of the suggestions.

A. I'll echo the statistical analysis of PtA.  1 out of the 10 Moderators is OO, which is 10%, not 0.01%.  Even if you include the 2 EO Global Moderators, that's 1 out of 12, or 8.33%, not 0.01%.
B. For most of the site's history, it has had 1 OO out of 3 Administrators, and the other two (for a long time, before Fr. Chris' promotion) were both Old Calendarists/Traditionalists (for whom the rest of us might as well be OO, since communion is not shared between us).
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« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2009, 11:39:20 AM »

  it's easy to assume that when you see the word 'Orthodox' here, it must be Eastern Orthodox. 

OO's don't make that assumption.  Speak for yourself.
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« Reply #107 on: November 08, 2009, 11:58:41 AM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])
Technically, for 99.99% of our moderators to be EO, we would need a staff of 10,000 moderators.  Do you really want this forum to be that tightly moderated? Wink

and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
Then again, maybe the answer is for you to take full responsibility for learning who we are and what we're about rather than blame other persons for your confusion.

How is trying to help the site become better and more user friendly 'blaming'?
When you talk about why you're confused, do you look into yourself to see the cause of your confusion, or do you see the cause to be outside yourself?
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« Reply #108 on: November 08, 2009, 12:20:41 PM »

A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.

Do you really believe OO's parent their children differently from EO's?


Quote
  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)

I know I and other OO's have participated there.  Most recently I have dealt with Mr. Young about the issue of sheep stealing.  Yes, OO's have interaction with "other Christians" also.


Quote
  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus. 

OO's participate there also. 


Quote
Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

Since I wasn't here when OCnet was originally founded, I can't tell you why the OO and two Eastern Catholics who founded it decided to put in an OO forum.  I just always assumed it was because there are so many questions that come up about OO's, that it would be convenient to have it.  As you can see from looking at the stats board, the OO section gets a lot of people looking at it.

I don't know why there aren't further subdivisions.  Maybe there should be a Modernist forum, where Modernist EO's can discuss how gays should be married, or how women should commune during their periods with their heads uncovered.  Maybe there should be a Traditionalist forum where ecumenism and the calendar issues can be discussed.  You may want to pm Fr. Chris and make these suggestions.


Quote
I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.

Is there any place where it states that it is specifically an EO site?

That this is not an EO site is easy to discern.  If it were an EO site, OO's wouldn't be participating.  That is not because OO's don't want to participate in EO sites; OO's have attempted to participate in at least a couple of EO sites that I know of on the internet.  The reason why OO's don't participate in EO sites is because EO sites inevitably put such restrictions on how and where OO's can post, that the OO's end up leaving.  This happened at both Monachos and the E-Cafe. 

Why EO sites feel the need to restrict OO speech is something that has never been adequately explained to me.  As I stated in an earlier post, I suspect it may be that the owners of those sites are threatened by what we have to say.  Another explanation could be the "Empire mentality":  "Those who don't conform to our councils must be humiliated and subjugated."  Yet another explanation could be that the owners of those sites feel that if they treat the OO's like inferiors, we will convert to the EO Church.

At the risk of being petty, I will point out that no OO sites I am aware of restrict EO members the way OO's are restricted on EO sites.

In any event, if OCnet were to become an EO site, I have no doubt that the same sort of restrictions would eventually be put on OO's here.  It always happens.  This thread and other communications I've had with people prove that.  You see, you are not the first person here to suggest that OO's be restricted.  Exactly two years ago, some EO's here were trying to convince the admins to restrict us and establish similar rules.  Among other things, they were advocating the removal of the OO section, that OO's not be able to call ourselves "Orthodox," that OO's should have to be polite to EO's, but EO's should not have to be polite to us, etc.  These discussions were not made public, but they happened.  I thank God that Fr. Anastasios is not threatened by us the way so many others are, and that he decided to keep things the way they are.  The fact is that if this board became officially EO and went the way the others have, OCnet would lose its OO members and audience.

 

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« Reply #109 on: November 08, 2009, 02:14:42 PM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])
Technically, for 99.99% of our moderators to be EO, we would need a staff of 10,000 moderators.  Do you really want this forum to be that tightly moderated? Wink

and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
Then again, maybe the answer is for you to take full responsibility for learning who we are and what we're about rather than blame other persons for your confusion.

How is trying to help the site become better and more user friendly 'blaming'?
When you talk about why you're confused, do you look into yourself to see the cause of your confusion, or do you see the cause to be outside yourself?

Hmm.  You're either not be paying attention or I guess I could ask you the same thing.
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« Reply #110 on: November 08, 2009, 04:51:40 PM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])
Technically, for 99.99% of our moderators to be EO, we would need a staff of 10,000 moderators.  Do you really want this forum to be that tightly moderated? Wink

and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
Then again, maybe the answer is for you to take full responsibility for learning who we are and what we're about rather than blame other persons for your confusion.

How is trying to help the site become better and more user friendly 'blaming'?
When you talk about why you're confused, do you look into yourself to see the cause of your confusion, or do you see the cause to be outside yourself?

Hmm.  You're either not be paying attention or I guess I could ask you the same thing.
What do you mean?
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« Reply #111 on: November 08, 2009, 06:43:24 PM »

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.
I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO.  It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.
Gabriel, if we are talking about answering practical questions such as the rubrics of the Liturgy, isn't a correct answer correct no matter who gives it?
And how do you know that someone who states they are Eastern Orthodox on the forum actually is Eastern Orthodox?
Our Lord said: "By their fruits you shall know them", not "read their name tags".
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« Reply #112 on: November 08, 2009, 09:50:06 PM »

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.
I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO.  It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.
Gabriel, if we are talking about answering practical questions such as the rubrics of the Liturgy, isn't a correct answer correct no matter who gives it?
Sure, but that's not the point.

And how do you know that someone who states they are Eastern Orthodox on the forum actually is Eastern Orthodox?
Our Lord said: "By their fruits you shall know them", not "read their name tags".
Witty, George; I'll give you that.  Smiley  Why don't we just rename the forum to Dot.Net?  People will be able to figure out it's a Christian site, right?  The 'Orthodox' part will throw 'em off for sure, but at least they'll know it's Christian.  What do you say, fellow Dot Netter?  You see, very few folks use their real names; in fact there's a lot we don't (and can't) know about each other so I'm not sure that verse would apply here, IMO.  Identifying our faith affiliation won't solve the world's problems but it'll cut down on some of the ambiguity here. 
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« Reply #113 on: November 08, 2009, 09:56:42 PM »


I suppose you can read the poll statistics any way you like, but you're only looking at half the picture.  You also suggested that non-EO should not post on three of our moderated boards.  Only 9 of the 50 who voted thus far (18%) voiced their agreement with this other suggestion by voting for Options 3 and 4.  When you look at that, I don't think you have anywhere near the support for the whole of your agenda as you like to think.

 As I said earlier, I never took statistics so I'm not sure how to read the numbers.  Here's how I look at them.  Option 1: these folks want  no change at all.  Options 2, 3 and 4: these folks want some type of change.  I just tally up the numbers for change and subtracted the option 1 numbers.  As it stands now, I lost.  But that's OK because

 "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, dog-gone-it, people like me." ~ Stuart Smalley  Wink  
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« Reply #114 on: November 09, 2009, 04:34:40 AM »

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.
I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO.  It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.
Gabriel, if we are talking about answering practical questions such as the rubrics of the Liturgy, isn't a correct answer correct no matter who gives it?
Sure, but that's not the point.
I'm not sure then what is the point. If someone who identifies as Eastern Orthodox gives an incorrect answer about Eastern Orthodox practice, is that somehow preferable to someone who identifies as Anglican giving the right one?

And how do you know that someone who states they are Eastern Orthodox on the forum actually is Eastern Orthodox?
Our Lord said: "By their fruits you shall know them", not "read their name tags".
Witty, George; I'll give you that.  Smiley  Why don't we just rename the forum to Dot.Net?  People will be able to figure out it's a Christian site, right?  The 'Orthodox' part will throw 'em off for sure, but at least they'll know it's Christian.  What do you say, fellow Dot Netter?  You see, very few folks use their real names; in fact there's a lot we don't (and can't) know about each other so I'm not sure that verse would apply here, IMO.  Identifying our faith affiliation won't solve the world's problems but it'll cut down on some of the ambiguity here. 
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Consider this scenario: A new poster called Joe Blogs comes on and identifies as "Faith: Eastern Orthodox, Juristiction OCA Diocese of the South". If Joe Blogs then makes a post in which he states that Our Lord Jesus Christ "has a single Incarnate Nature and a single Incarnate Will" and that the veneration of Icons is "up to individual choice whether to consider it idolatry or not", is their Faith really Eastern Orthodox? How has ambiguity been "cut down" by Joe Blogs identifying as "Eastern Orthodox"? This is what I was meaning by quoting the verse "by their fruits (not their name tags) you shall know them."
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« Reply #115 on: November 12, 2009, 11:58:38 AM »

Obviously I won't vote in the poll, but as for my opinion, I've always been up front with my religious affiliation, even when I would have been better off personally by not disclosing it.

Perhaps I missed a few things along the way, but until I saw this thread, I was not aware that you had again left the Orthodox Church.  I have to confess that I don't always look closely at, or take too seriously, labels that people put near their avatar, unless they are very explicit.  Your "panendeism" tag would be a case in point.

Well, certainly this thread has made me think about how I participate at this forum. For instance, I've not voted in 3 recent polls that I came across in the last week, because they struck me as polls that were best left to Orthodox and/or Christian posters. And I'm going to try and be more explicit about my non-Orthodoxy when I mention something wildly unorthodox in a post. And I admit that I can understand you not realising that I had left Orthodoxy again. However, I think I've made enough changes, and that there are now enough signs, to demonstrate to anyone who cares that I am not Orthodox. My faith is listed as panendeism. My jurisdiction is listed as Unitarian Universalist. My avatar is of a 19th century agnostic, and even if you don't know who he is, the caption below it at least implies that he is not Orthodox. The first quote in my signature is by an atheist. The second quote is by an agnostic. And if that's not enough, my custom title says explicitly that I'm not Orthodox. I'm trying to meet some of these fellows that I disagree with half way here.
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« Reply #116 on: December 03, 2009, 01:43:45 AM »

To be clear, this site exists as an Orthodox Forum where people who identify themselves as Orthodox are given a place to discuss things pertinent to the Orthodox Faith.  In practicality, this means that there is a broad approach to allowing people from the Eastern Orthodox "Majority", the Eastern Orthodox "Traditionalists", and the Oriental Orthodox "Non-Chalcedonians" to post on topics relating to Orthodoxy.  It should be emphasized that it is the policy of this site that no one is required to affirm that any of the other groups are canonical or Orthodox, but rather the purpose of the broad approach is to allow broad discussion on topics that in academic discourse are labeled "Orthodox studies."

People who do not fit this broad, academic definition of Orthodox, such as Roman Catholics, Protestants, non-Christians, and others, are permitted to post here and to offer positive contributions to the site and corrections when their faith traditions are misrepresented.  They are not, however, permitted to attempt to bring people to other faiths.

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