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Poll
Question: Should non-EO members identify their affiliation and/or not respond to EO questions?
Things are fine the way they are. - 33 (49.3%)
All non-EO membes should identify their religious affiliation. - 23 (34.3%)
All non-EO members should refrain from answering EO questions pertaining to the EO faith. - 3 (4.5%)
Both (2) and (3) - 8 (11.9%)
Total Voters: 67

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GabrieltheCelt
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« on: November 04, 2009, 01:40:33 AM »

Dear all,

 I was recently discussing this issue with a few friends and thought I would bring it up for all to discuss.  Many times a question or subject will be brought up by an Orthodox Christian that pertains to Eastern Orthodoxy.  As this is an open, public forum, many non-Orthodox will naturally feel inclined to respond.  I certainly don't want to sound as if I'm advocating for censure, but many times, though the non-Orthodox poster may well be well intentioned, the responses are often not Orthodox.  In order to help ensure clarity, I wonder if it would be possible to either A) have all members choose and state their religious affiliation so other posters can discern the validity of the responses or B) ask that all non-Orthodox refrain from replying to questions having to do with the Eastern Orthodox faith.  I mean absolutely no disrespect towards my non-EO friends, but when everyone responds to EO issues, confusion can easily spread, making the replies difficult to discern.
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2009, 01:44:54 AM »

Moderators,

 Could we add a fourth question to the poll?  "Option 4: both 2 and 3."

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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2009, 01:53:50 AM »

Just a disclaimer:

I am never 'well intentioned'. Wink
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2009, 02:09:03 AM »

Just a disclaimer:

I am never 'well intentioned'. Wink


Of course, Greeky demonstrates another problem: "former EO."
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 02:09:57 AM »

Since I am not an EO, I won't answer the poll, as I think that is your intent.  However, I have to ask, is this in response to a recent thread or a particular situation?  

Also, can you be a little more specific?  Are you suggesting that when a thread is started by an EO, that non-EO's should not be able to post in it?  What exactly is an "EO issue?"
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2009, 02:12:31 AM »

I've not voted on this poll, but I will offer these comments:

Our religious affiliation is listed along with our user names and avatars, as well as any juristictional or denominational clarifications.

Many of the regular posters are not EO Christians. However they have studied religion and religious history and liturgies and can add much to a topic.

I don't believe that restricting participation will enhance a discussion.
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2009, 02:14:35 AM »

I've not voted on this poll, but I will offer these comments:

Our religious affiliation is listed along with our user names and avatars, as well as any juristictional or denominational clarifications.

Many of the regular posters are not EO Christians. However they have studied religion and religious history and liturgies and can add much to a topic.

I don't believe that restricting participation will enhance a discussion.

I don't believe he is talking about limiting discussion. He is saying that responses should clarify whether that person is an Orthodox Christian or not.
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« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2009, 02:14:43 AM »

Obviously I won't vote in the poll, but as for my opinion, I've always been up front with my religious affiliation, even when I would have been better off personally by not disclosing it. I've even changed my username in the past based on the idea that I didn't want to mislead or confuse anyone (Paradosis --> Asteriktos, which means "unstable," so it's like I'm warning you right up front Wink ). Isn't the point of having a "faith" category at the side of your posts so you can identify what faith tradition, if any, you are a part of? Also, aren't all the issues discussed on the forum "EO issues" in some sense? Whether we're talking about politics, evolution, or Jesus Christ, Orthodox Christians are going to approach the subject from an Orthodox perspective, and the majority of the discussion will naturally have an Orthodox tone to it. Those are my thoughts, anyway. And unlike GiC, I'm mostly here to have fun and learn something. Mostly. Wink
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« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2009, 02:18:47 AM »

However, I have to ask, is this in response to a recent thread or a particular situation?

I don't want to get into specifics as I don't want to call anyone out, but it's been an on going concern.
    
Also, can you be a little more specific?  Are you suggesting that when a thread is started by an EO, that non-EO's should not be able to post in it?  What exactly is an "EO issue?"

My personal inclination is that if an EO asks a question pertaining to the EO faith, non-EO's should refrain from responding.  As I say, that's my personal inclination, but I left open the possibility that anyone can answer any question asked as long as they state what faith they belong to.  I think it makes good sense to know who's answering so that I can make a better informed decision.  

Do my replies answer your questions (I'm being sincere!  Smiley)
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« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2009, 02:19:43 AM »

I've not voted on this poll, but I will offer these comments:

Our religious affiliation is listed along with our user names and avatars, as well as any juristictional or denominational clarifications.

Many of the regular posters are not EO Christians. However they have studied religion and religious history and liturgies and can add much to a topic.

I don't believe that restricting participation will enhance a discussion.

I don't believe he is talking about limiting discussion. He is saying that responses should clarify whether that person is an Orthodox Christian or not.

Precisely.  Smiley  When I ask a question, I want to know what (if any) faith affiliation the responder belongs to. 
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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2009, 02:22:55 AM »

Like I said that's already done...it's listed right under your user name. But I guess we could be reduntant and repeat it in our post.
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 02:23:02 AM »

Obviously I won't vote in the poll, but as for my opinion, I've always been up front with my religious affiliation, even when I would have been better off personally by not disclosing it. I've even changed my username in the past based on the idea that I didn't want to mislead or confuse anyone (Paradosis --> Asteriktos, which means "unstable," so it's like I'm warning you right up front Wink ). Isn't the point of having a "faith" category at the side of your posts so you can identify what faith tradition, if any, you are a part of? Also, aren't all the issues discussed on the forum "EO issues" in some sense? Whether we're talking about politics, evolution, or Jesus Christ, Orthodox Christians are going to approach the subject from an Orthodox perspective, and the majority of the discussion will naturally have an Orthodox tone to it. Those are my thoughts, anyway. And unlike GiC, I'm mostly here to have fun and learn something. Mostly. Wink

And I thought you were just a fellow masochist...Wink
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2009, 02:24:25 AM »

Like I said that's already done...it's listed right under your user name.

If you choose to do so.
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2009, 02:26:06 AM »

However, I have to ask, is this in response to a recent thread or a particular situation?

I don't want to get into specifics as I don't want to call anyone out, but it's been an on going concern.
    
Also, can you be a little more specific?  Are you suggesting that when a thread is started by an EO, that non-EO's should not be able to post in it?  What exactly is an "EO issue?"

My personal inclination is that if an EO asks a question pertaining to the EO faith, non-EO's should refrain from responding.  As I say, that's my personal inclination, but I left open the possibility that anyone can answer any question asked as long as they state what faith they belong to.  I think it makes good sense to know who's answering so that I can make a better informed decision.  

Do my replies answer your questions (I'm being sincere!  Smiley)

Are you guys loosing the Chalcedon debates to the OO again?
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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2009, 02:26:10 AM »

Obviously I won't vote in the poll, but as for my opinion, I've always been up front with my religious affiliation,

You have; in fact I'd like to give you some public recognition.  In the past, when I've asked a question and asked for EO only responses, you have always complied and instead, PM'd me with your thoughts/replies.  I thought that was very considerate and gentlemanly of you.  Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2009, 02:27:27 AM »

Like I said that's already done...it's listed right under your user name.

If you choose to do so.
Most of the regular posteers choose to.
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« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2009, 02:28:27 AM »

However, I have to ask, is this in response to a recent thread or a particular situation?

I don't want to get into specifics as I don't want to call anyone out, but it's been an on going concern.
    
Also, can you be a little more specific?  Are you suggesting that when a thread is started by an EO, that non-EO's should not be able to post in it?  What exactly is an "EO issue?"

My personal inclination is that if an EO asks a question pertaining to the EO faith, non-EO's should refrain from responding.  As I say, that's my personal inclination, but I left open the possibility that anyone can answer any question asked as long as they state what faith they belong to.  I think it makes good sense to know who's answering so that I can make a better informed decision.  

Do my replies answer your questions (I'm being sincere!  Smiley)

Are you guys loosing the Chalcedon debates to the OO again?

Truth be known- I rarely visit the OO forum so I have little idea what the current topic is.  Although I will say that I have a tremendous amount of love and respect for my OO brothers and sisters.  
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« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2009, 02:29:54 AM »

Like I said that's already done...it's listed right under your user name.

If you choose to do so.
Most of the regular posteers choose to.

...but not all of them do, right?  So because of this fact, I want to bring attention to it.
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« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2009, 03:17:35 AM »

I don't see anything that is broken.   Smiley

Why start placing disclaimers in posts that discriminate against non-EO members?   Huh
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« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2009, 03:22:49 AM »

^^ Are you a member of the ACLU?  Wink 
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« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2009, 03:47:07 AM »

Fwiw, I now have a disclaimer under my avatar. I figured "I'm an apostate from Orthodoxy" was a little over the top though Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2009, 03:55:01 AM »

Let both grow together until the harvest.

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« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2009, 04:09:03 AM »

I admit that I understand part of what Gabriel is talking about. When I was learning about Taoism and went to The Tao Bums discussion forum, I was totally lost. Not only were there various types of Taoists there, but there were also various types of Buddhists, among other belief systems. It was difficult at times to figure out who was saying what, and it could become a huge jumble of opinion. Having said that, I don't think my posts here detract from the forum, and I think most people can figure out that I'm not Orthodox. But in the interest of keeping things clearer for new comers, in the future I'll try to remember to say at the beginning of posts whether I am giving what I understand to be an Orthodox view or whether I am giving my own non-Orthodox view.
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« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2009, 05:01:26 AM »

Dear all,

 I was recently discussing this issue with a few friends and thought I would bring it up for all to discuss.  Many times a question or subject will be brought up by an Orthodox Christian that pertains to Eastern Orthodoxy.  As this is an open, public forum, many non-Orthodox will naturally feel inclined to respond.  I certainly don't want to sound as if I'm advocating for censure, but many times, though the non-Orthodox poster may well be well intentioned, the responses are often not Orthodox.  In order to help ensure clarity, I wonder if it would be possible to either A) have all members choose and state their religious affiliation so other posters can discern the validity of the responses or B) ask that all non-Orthodox refrain from replying to questions having to do with the Eastern Orthodox faith.
This isn't monachos.net or some other such high-Orthodox-theology web site.  Why, then, would you take anything that is said here so seriously that we would ever need to ask the non-Orthodox on this forum to keep silent?
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« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2009, 08:23:07 AM »

Moderators,

Could we add a fourth question to the poll?  "Option 4: both 2 and 3."

Done.
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« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2009, 08:28:14 AM »

I don't know if identification as EO or non EO is actually helpful; there are far too many EO whose beliefs lie on the fringe of the faith's spectrum, and certainly quite a few who offer their opinions as the dogma of the Church without supporting documentation.  Personally, I'd rather see a more widely utilized phrase in people's posts: "this is my opinion."  Or at least "this is what I think the Church believes."
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« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2009, 12:18:48 PM »

Dear all,

 I was recently discussing this issue with a few friends and thought I would bring it up for all to discuss.  Many times a question or subject will be brought up by an Orthodox Christian that pertains to Eastern Orthodoxy.  As this is an open, public forum, many non-Orthodox will naturally feel inclined to respond.  I certainly don't want to sound as if I'm advocating for censure, but many times, though the non-Orthodox poster may well be well intentioned, the responses are often not Orthodox.  In order to help ensure clarity, I wonder if it would be possible to either A) have all members choose and state their religious affiliation so other posters can discern the validity of the responses or B) ask that all non-Orthodox refrain from replying to questions having to do with the Eastern Orthodox faith.
This isn't monachos.net or some other such high-Orthodox-theology web site.  Why, then, would you take anything that is said here so seriously that we would ever need to ask the non-Orthodox on this forum to keep silent?

Why would I take anything said here seriously?  Because although we have several comic relief threads and other threads that don't necessarily pertain to Eastern Orthodoxy, or even Christianity for that matter, I do take much of this forum seriously and I'd bet you that Fr. Anastasios, Fr. Chris and many others take it seriously.  Look at it this way; if I were to visit an Islamic forum wanting to learn more about Islam, I would not want to see non-Muslims chiming in with their views because, simply put, it's not fair to those who are trying to learn about Islam.  And it's not fair to those who are trying to learn about Eastern Orthodoxy either.  My gut feeling is that people don't visit this forum to get the Roman Catholic or Jewish or Buddhist or Atheist view of Eastern Orthodoxy and this is why, when it comes to matters of the Eastern Orthodox faith, they should be considerate enough to not to chime in.  Most of them are, but there are times when they aren't.  And again, because this is a sensitive subject, I want to reiterate that I appreciate the fact that this forum does allow membership to non-EO's and that I mean no disrespect to my non-EO friends.
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« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2009, 12:19:22 PM »

I don't know if identification as EO or non EO is actually helpful; there are far too many EO whose beliefs lie on the fringe of the faith's spectrum, and certainly quite a few who offer their opinions as the dogma of the Church without supporting documentation.  Personally, I'd rather see a more widely utilized phrase in people's posts: "this is my opinion."  Or at least "this is what I think the Church believes."

Which is why I wish our clergy were more active.
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« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2009, 12:31:53 PM »

Why would I take anything said here seriously?  Because although we have several comic relief threads and other threads that don't necessarily pertain to Eastern Orthodoxy, or even Christianity for that matter, I do take much of this forum seriously and I'd bet you that Fr. Anastasios, Fr. Chris and many others take it seriously.

The forum exists for an exchange of ideas not for abuse, which is taken seriously.

Look at it this way; if I were to visit an Islamic forum wanting to learn more about Islam, I would not want to see non-Muslims chiming in with their views because, simply put, it's not fair to those who are trying to learn about Islam.

You have a bias in that you were once a Muslim. 

And it's not fair to those who are trying to learn about Eastern Orthodoxy either.  My gut feeling is that people don't visit this forum to get the Roman Catholic or Jewish or Buddhist or Atheist view of Eastern Orthodoxy

Many people were instructed to say immediately after the Resurrection that Christ didn't rise from the dead and His body was secretly stolen from the grave.  Guess that didn't work then and I hope that doesn't work today regardless of how many faith groups visit this forum.   Smiley

and this is why, when it comes to matters of the Eastern Orthodox faith, they should be considerate enough to not to chime in.  Most of them are, but there are times when they aren't.  And again, because this is a sensitive subject, I want to reiterate that I appreciate the fact that this forum does allow membership to non-EO's and that I mean no disrespect to my non-EO friends.

As someone once told me on this forum in my early days, if you don't like getting dirty, don't play in the sandbox.   Wink
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« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2009, 12:41:19 PM »

I rather like the fact that non-Eastern Orthodox participate here.  At least some of them have valuable stuff to say and fresh/new perspectives on various questions.  They also prevent the unthinking "groupthink" you often get when people who go to the same church (or are part of the same non-religious group, for that matter) are discussing issues that aren't specific to their church.  Often people just assume that "everybody agrees" on some issue when that's not the case. 

It's best, IMHO, that we *all* identify which church we attend/don't attend/what we believe, but I wouldn't pick on the non-EO posters specifically. 
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« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2009, 12:52:28 PM »

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone.  I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions.  At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.  Smiley
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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2009, 01:42:09 PM »

At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.  Smiley
And you do know. I try to be careful and If I think that an issue is specifically for EOs I will either not answer or ask permission before I say anything as you saw in the Jesus Prayer Poll thread.
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« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2009, 01:55:43 PM »


I have to admit that I look at the "labels" of each author to verify the "source" of the comment.

Papist, I think you have nothing to worry about.  If they don't get that you are Catholic from your "name", or from the avatar you use, or from the information you provide...then the reader is in trouble.

You have never hidden the fact that you are Catholic....although I am confident that in time we will win you over to Orthodoxy!   Wink


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« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2009, 02:33:50 PM »

Permit me a few comments on your comments, Gabriel.
Orthodoxy has always been very attractive to people; they are attracted to Orthodoxy, perhaps, by what we know as Grace... That is why they want to be a part of this forum too. But in my opinion, also these people are quite confused by discussions like this one. Besides we are arguing about a lot of issues which seem trite. :[

Better “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them,..."Smiley, Smiley, Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2009, 03:28:02 PM »

I'd like to have their answers personally, GabrielTheCelt, whether they are Orthodox or not.  I also definitely want to know who they are and what they believe as well; that's part of evaluating what they say. 
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« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2009, 04:26:16 PM »

Permit me a few comments on your comments, Gabriel.
Orthodoxy has always been very attractive to people; they are attracted to Orthodoxy, perhaps, by what we know as Grace... That is why they want to be a part of this forum too. But in my opinion, also these people are quite confused by discussions like this one. Besides we are arguing about a lot of issues which seem trite. :[

Better “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them,..."Smiley, Smiley, Smiley

Welcome to the forum, Oleg! Smiley  And thank you very much for your comments.



 
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« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2009, 04:51:35 PM »

Maybe have an intro section? 

More or less we know the beliefs and affiliations of established posters, and this could provide a place where new posters can write a tiny blurb about themselves, beliefs, etc.  Keep it moderated sort of like the convert section; information rather than in depth debate.  It would be something to refer back to without making the non-Orthodox wear a scarlet marking.  Tongue
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« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2009, 05:00:09 PM »

First off, I want to thank everyone who has already and who will participate by voting and/or leaving their comments.  Since I don't make the by-laws of the forum (thank heavens, right?  Cheesy), my hope was to at least get everyone thinking about the subject.  I still feel very strongly about the topic and I can see that those who disagree with me also feel very strongly as well.  My intention wasn't to create trouble or divide everyone into two camps.  I hope that my words weren't hurtful towards anyone.  Rather than continue on, I'll just simply ask everyone to meditate on the reason why there was a need for the ecumenical councils?  I'm quite sure the Fathers and Mothers were aware of Matthew 13:24-30: The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares, but still they forged ahead...  
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« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2009, 05:40:52 PM »

Gabriel,

I don't think that non-Orthodox should necessarily refrain from chiming in on threads having to do with the Orthodox faith, but I can understand your concerns about that. For my own part, after having slept on it, I've decided to make more of an effort to not take things off course and to keep my presence at a minimum when that's for the best. For example, my participation in the H1N1 and the Eucharist thread was not only unneeded, but also improper in the way I went about it. This is not a multi-faith forum, where people critique each other. This is an Orthodox forum, where Orthodox Christians should feel safe in expressing and discussing their faith.
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« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2009, 06:14:28 PM »

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone.  I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions.  At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.  Smiley

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with.  Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak.  As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind).  If you want to know something about someone, simply ask.  Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.
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« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2009, 06:32:19 PM »

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone.  I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions.  At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.  Smiley

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with.  Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak.  As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind).  If you want to know something about someone, simply ask.  Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.

That's because you've put little thought into the matter.  Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers.  Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.
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« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2009, 06:45:36 PM »

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone.  I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions.  At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.  Smiley

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with.  Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak.  As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind).  If you want to know something about someone, simply ask.  Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.

That's because you've put little thought into the matter.  Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers.  Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

I really don't think you're the first person to come up with the idea of censorship and I don't think Schultz is the first person to think that it might not be all that great of an idea.

'The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it.  If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth:  if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.'  -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
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« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2009, 06:49:19 PM »

That's because you've put little thought into the matter.  Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers.  Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

I really don't think you're the first person to come up with the idea of censorship and I don't think Schultz is the first person to think that it might not be all that great of an idea.

'The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it.  If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth:  if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.'  -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

I do not believe the venerable Mr. Mill is considering voluntary self-censorship - which is what I hope GabrieltheCelt is proposing - a part of what he is railing against (institutional censorship, or censorship by fiat).
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« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2009, 06:53:24 PM »

That's because you've put little thought into the matter.  Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers.  Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

I really don't think you're the first person to come up with the idea of censorship and I don't think Schultz is the first person to think that it might not be all that great of an idea.

'The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it.  If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth:  if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.'  -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

I do not believe the venerable Mr. Mill is considering voluntary self-censorship - which is what I hope GabrieltheCelt is proposing - a part of what he is railing against (institutional censorship, or censorship by fiat).

Ah, well perhaps I misunderstood his intentions, if voluntary self-censorship is all that GabrieltheCelt proposing, then I retract my snide remarks as having been inappropriate.
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« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2009, 06:53:46 PM »

I feel like we've had this discussion before...  Grin

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« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2009, 06:55:41 PM »

Dear all,

 I was recently discussing this issue with a few friends and thought I would bring it up for all to discuss.  Many times a question or subject will be brought up by an Orthodox Christian that pertains to Eastern Orthodoxy.  As this is an open, public forum, many non-Orthodox will naturally feel inclined to respond.  I certainly don't want to sound as if I'm advocating for censure, but many times, though the non-Orthodox poster may well be well intentioned, the responses are often not Orthodox.  In order to help ensure clarity, I wonder if it would be possible to either A) have all members choose and state their religious affiliation so other posters can discern the validity of the responses or B) ask that all non-Orthodox refrain from replying to questions having to do with the Eastern Orthodox faith.  I mean absolutely no disrespect towards my non-EO friends, but when everyone responds to EO issues, confusion can easily spread, making the replies difficult to discern.
Yes. I think it is only right for a non-Orthodox to identify his religious affiliation, as I have done all along for example.  But as far as replying to questions having to do with the Orthodox faith, i think that the way this is framed is too general. Take for example a question on neo-atheism or secularism in western culture or women in the priesthood, or the H1N1 virus and Holy Communion. Now these can all be thought of as questions touching upon teachings and practices in the Orthodox Church, but I don't see why you would  want to exclude non-Orthodox from the discussion, especially if they identify themselves as belonging to another Church?
On the other hand, if you wanted to have a section of the forum, where non-Orthodox are locked out of the discussion, I suppose that this could be appropriate for a limited number of questions.
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« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2009, 07:12:53 PM »

Dear all,

 I was recently discussing this issue with a few friends and thought I would bring it up for all to discuss.  Many times a question or subject will be brought up by an Orthodox Christian that pertains to Eastern Orthodoxy.  As this is an open, public forum, many non-Orthodox will naturally feel inclined to respond.  I certainly don't want to sound as if I'm advocating for censure, but many times, though the non-Orthodox poster may well be well intentioned, the responses are often not Orthodox.  In order to help ensure clarity, I wonder if it would be possible to either A) have all members choose and state their religious affiliation so other posters can discern the validity of the responses or B) ask that all non-Orthodox refrain from replying to questions having to do with the Eastern Orthodox faith.  I mean absolutely no disrespect towards my non-EO friends, but when everyone responds to EO issues, confusion can easily spread, making the replies difficult to discern.
Yes. I think it is only right for a non-Orthodox to identify his religious affiliation, as I have done all along for example.  But as far as replying to questions having to do with the Orthodox faith, i think that the way this is framed is too general. Take for example a question on neo-atheism or secularism in western culture or women in the priesthood, or the H1N1 virus and Holy Communion. Now these can all be thought of as questions touching upon teachings and practices in the Orthodox Church, but I don't see why you would  want to exclude non-Orthodox from the discussion, especially if they identify themselves as belonging to another Church?
On the other hand, if you wanted to have a section of the forum, where non-Orthodox are locked out of the discussion, I suppose that this could be appropriate for a limited number of questions.
I think that this might be detrimental to the Orthodox who use this forum though. For example they may be discussing how a certain Orthodox teaching relates to a Catholic teaching and might have a misconception about the Catholic teaching. If this discussion is occurring in the "Orthodox Only" sub forum, the misconception will not be cleared up and the discussion they are having will be less fruitful.
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« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2009, 07:22:28 PM »

Why, Papist? Last time I checked, this forum was supposed to be a primarily Orthodox forum, therefore, the discussion of Orthodoxy should be paramount. Non-Orthodox should not be excluded from membership, or for having their voice heard, but I agree with GabrieltheCelt that, to avoid confusion, specifying one's religious affiliation should be a requirement of membership. Is doing so such a great hardship or invasion of privacy? 
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« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2009, 08:17:36 PM »

Why, Papist? Last time I checked, this forum was supposed to be a primarily Orthodox forum, therefore, the discussion of Orthodoxy should be paramount. Non-Orthodox should not be excluded from membership, or for having their voice heard, but I agree with GabrieltheCelt that, to avoid confusion, specifying one's religious affiliation should be a requirement of membership. Is doing so such a great hardship or invasion of privacy? 
So when discussing the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism you would rather be discussing a what could be a mistaken view of what Catholics believe than to have a Catholic chime in and say, "uh.. that's not actually what Catholics believe"?
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« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2009, 10:06:19 PM »

So when discussing the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism you would rather be discussing a what could be a mistaken view of what Catholics believe than to have a Catholic chime in and say, "uh.. that's not actually what Catholics believe"?

Isn't it always easier that way?   Smiley

Isn't there a forum somewhere, where the non-EO's are only allowed to post in an Inquirer's Corner, or something?  They're not allowed to post in any of the other sections, not even to correct a misconception about their faith?  What am I thinking of?  My memory is all shot.  It's one of those forums that gets like two posts a week.

In any event, with a couple of notable and notorious exceptions, I've always welcomed non-OO's to post their thoughts in the threads in the OO section here, as long as they are respectful.  I think the other OO's feel the same way.  Life would be boring if everyone were an OO.   Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2009, 11:14:24 PM »

Why, Papist? Last time I checked, this forum was supposed to be a primarily Orthodox forum, therefore, the discussion of Orthodoxy should be paramount. Non-Orthodox should not be excluded from membership, or for having their voice heard, but I agree with GabrieltheCelt that, to avoid confusion, specifying one's religious affiliation should be a requirement of membership. Is doing so such a great hardship or invasion of privacy? 
So when discussing the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism you would rather be discussing a what could be a mistaken view of what Catholics believe than to have a Catholic chime in and say, "uh.. that's not actually what Catholics believe"?

Friend (and I mean that BTW  Smiley), that's not what LBK was saying and it sure as heck ain't what I was saying.  Take a deep breath and go back to the beginning.  Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2009, 11:18:19 PM »

Why, Papist? Last time I checked, this forum was supposed to be a primarily Orthodox forum, therefore, the discussion of Orthodoxy should be paramount. Non-Orthodox should not be excluded from membership, or for having their voice heard, but I agree with GabrieltheCelt that, to avoid confusion, specifying one's religious affiliation should be a requirement of membership. Is doing so such a great hardship or invasion of privacy? 
So when discussing the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism you would rather be discussing a what could be a mistaken view of what Catholics believe than to have a Catholic chime in and say, "uh.. that's not actually what Catholics believe"?

Can't speak for others, Papist, but any comments I have made on this forum which go against what your church believes have been to show the Orthodox position which show the error of RC ways, such as my efforts on the "Supremacy of Peter" thread.
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« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2009, 11:19:18 PM »

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone.  I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions.  At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.  Smiley

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with.  Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak.  As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind).  If you want to know something about someone, simply ask.  Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.

That's because you've put little thought into the matter.  Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers.  Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

What confusion do you speak of? Our faith is clearly listed under our avatars. I really don't understand what the problem is. Furthermore, just because someone is EO doesn't mean what they say is in line with Church teaching.
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« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2009, 11:29:33 PM »

With respect, Handmaiden, many members here do not show their religious affiliation in their sidebar (whether that is Orthodox or otherwise), hence Gabriel's concern that it could lead to confusion when reading their posts.

In my time here, several  members have changed their religious affiliation, from non-Orthodox to Orthodox, or vice-versa, often without this change being noted in their sidebar.
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« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2009, 11:31:27 PM »

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone.  I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions.  At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.  Smiley

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with.  Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak.  As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind).  If you want to know something about someone, simply ask.  Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.



That's because you've put little thought into the matter.  Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers.  Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

Contempt for you?  If I have ever intimated that I have such feelings for you, please forgive me.  I have no idea where you got such an idea that I have such strong feelings against you, let alone any real feelings against you at all.  Please note that my comment was specifically directed towards your idea ("...such a requirement") and not you directly.

I would also note that it's practically neck and neck in regards to the poll. 

I again reiterate that one need only ask another of his or her religious affiliation if one is curious.
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« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2009, 11:39:19 PM »

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone.  I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions.  At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.  Smiley

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with.  Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak.  As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind).  If you want to know something about someone, simply ask.  Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.



That's because you've put little thought into the matter.  Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers.  Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

Contempt for you?  If I have ever intimated that I have such feelings for you, please forgive me.  I have no idea where you got such an idea that I have such strong feelings against you, let alone any real feelings against you at all.  Please note that my comment was specifically directed towards your idea ("...such a requirement") and not you directly.
Dually noted, friend.  I guess I just misread your words.  Please forgive me.
 
I would also note that it's practically neck and neck in regards to the poll.
I'm adding up options 2, 3 and 4 and comparing them against option 1.
   
I again reiterate that one need only ask another of his or her religious affiliation if one is curious.
I do but many people choose to remain as unregistered guests and therefore cannot ask anything. 
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« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2009, 12:33:47 AM »

With respect, Handmaiden, many members here do not show their religious affiliation in their sidebar (whether that is Orthodox or otherwise), hence Gabriel's concern that it could lead to confusion when reading their posts.

In my time here, several  members have changed their religious affiliation, from non-Orthodox to Orthodox, or vice-versa, often without this change being noted in their sidebar.

And how would one stop this from happening? How can you FORCE someone to display their religious affiliation?
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« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2009, 12:58:07 AM »

Quote
I'm adding up options 2, 3 and 4 and comparing them against option 1.

Well see, different people are looking at the poll differently. When I look at the poll, I'm adding up the first and second options, and comparing it with the combined third and fourth options. This is because what really matters to me in this poll is how many people want me to butt out of issues having to do with the Orthodox Faith (however that is defined--that's a whole discussion by itself). So I see the numbers as being 27 to 8, with 8 wanting me to keep my trap shut on issues having to do with the Orthodox faith, and 27 people being fine with me chiming in so long as I identify my religious affiliation.
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« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2009, 01:47:26 AM »

With respect, Handmaiden, many members here do not show their religious affiliation in their sidebar (whether that is Orthodox or otherwise), hence Gabriel's concern that it could lead to confusion when reading their posts.

In my time here, several  members have changed their religious affiliation, from non-Orthodox to Orthodox, or vice-versa, often without this change being noted in their sidebar.

And how would one stop this from happening? How can you FORCE someone to display their religious affiliation?

Dear sister, there are many rules one must agree to when one registers for an account.  Currently, listing one's religious affiliation is not a requirement, but the Administration has reserved the right for them to amend/add rules as they see fit (see 'catch all' under the 'rules' section.)  This is your answer. 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 01:50:35 AM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2009, 03:33:34 AM »

With respect, Handmaiden, many members here do not show their religious affiliation in their sidebar (whether that is Orthodox or otherwise), hence Gabriel's concern that it could lead to confusion when reading their posts.

In my time here, several  members have changed their religious affiliation, from non-Orthodox to Orthodox, or vice-versa, often without this change being noted in their sidebar.

And how would one stop this from happening? How can you FORCE someone to display their religious affiliation?

Dear sister, there are many rules one must agree to when one registers for an account.  Currently, listing one's religious affiliation is not a requirement, but the Administration has reserved the right for them to amend/add rules as they see fit (see 'catch all' under the 'rules' section.)  This is your answer. 
I am in favor of listing your religious affiliation, but how would you check this out? For example, when at CAF there was an Eastern Christianity forum, I think that someone said he belonged to the Catholic Church. But when pressed on this, he said that it was the One, Holy, Apostolic, Orthodox Catholic Church, and by this he meant the Eastern Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2009, 04:22:15 AM »

Although option #4 wasn't an option when I created the poll (I asked for it to be included after the fact), this is where I would include myself.  I would like to see all members' religious affiliation listed and kindly ask that all non-EO's refrain from posting in the first three sections of the moderated forums; Convert Issues, Faith Issues and Liturgy (I would like to see the Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics removed from Liturgy and relegated to their own sections (The OO's already have their own section and to be fair, the RC's should be given their own as well).  As for 'checking' for validity, I think anyone being dishonest would eventually betray themselves and therefore be subject to receiving a "Warning" that may or may not lead to their being "Banned".


What is the mission of this forum?  What is it's purpose, it's Raison d'être?  Can anyone tell me please?  Anyone can join, even militant atheists who openly mock Christ and His followers.  Heck they're even allowed complete access to all of the forums.  Why?  I'm glad that anyone can participate, but it seems responsible to put certain restrictions on certain demographics.  Perhaps now would be a great time for one of our esteemed administrators to emerge from the shadows and provide us with the mission and purpose of orthodoxchristianity.net and then provide us with answers as to whether or not that criteria is being met.  If the mission and purpose is to provide Orthodox Christians a safe place to ask questions as well as inquirers to feel at ease to ask and learn about Eastern Orthodoxy, then, compared to monachos.net (who shares the same mission and purpose), the OC.Net has many opportunities for improvement.  Some time back the administrators and a few moderators asked for input and opinions on how to improve the OC.Net- consider this whole thread my input.   
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« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2009, 04:43:38 AM »

But didn't Anastasios answer these questions 2 1/2 years ago when there was a similar thread?

Yes. You hit the nail right on the head. Unfortunately, I'm so sure that the OCnet measure's up.

I do appreciate your feedback on our forum and as you can see your comments are being considered. I want to always encourage people to let us know how we are doing and offer feedback.

I don't think our forum measures up either but the way I see it, no forum measures up for that matter given that human beings run forums and human beings participate in forums. It's impossible to satisfy everyone and we do our best to provide the most reasonable forum available, and from the feedback I have received over the past five years, even those who complain/comment about the site (which is fine, that's how we measure ourselves) will admit that this site does the best job of providing some sort of balance between a) reasonable free speech and discussion/debate and b) providing a safe haven for Orthodox to express themselves.

The problems I have always noticed are that if one tends towards option a then fundamental Orthodox concepts are challenged and that upsets some people seeking b; and if b is emphasized too much, no discussion occurs and the forum becomes pretty homogenous and boring.

My guiding principle when I set up this site with Robert and Philip was (and is), if the Orthodox Church is the true Church, our position will always win out in a free venue (which is what a "forum" is).  Now, when we see someone being consistently anti-Orthodox or who does not seem to be here for discussion or fellowship but is rather a troll, we take action. The problem is, it's hard to establish who fits that category sometimes, especially without attributing motives to others (which is something I personally find extremely vexing when it is done to me and so I try to avoid doing it to others).

On a personal note, and in the vein of the above, I was slightly bothered at your insinuation that GisC's monetary donation (which was extremely modest in comparison to other donors and which occurred in 2005) was in some way responsible for his not being banned.  No one owns me or any other member of our team.

I do agree with you that constant anti-Orthodox banter gets old and I don't like it when threads are hijacked repeatedly.

If you would like to help us make this site a better place, I am sure we can find an area for you to contribute. I for one am always looking for assistance in developing and editing content on the front page. We also need help in collecting photographs for posting. If you or anyone else is interested in improving the site, PM me.

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« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2009, 06:48:21 AM »

Although option #4 wasn't an option when I created the poll (I asked for it to be included after the fact), this is where I would include myself.  I would like to see all members' religious affiliation listed and kindly ask that all non-EO's refrain from posting in the first three sections of the moderated forums; Convert Issues, Faith Issues and Liturgy (I would like to see the Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics removed from Liturgy and relegated to their own sections (The OO's already have their own section and to be fair, the RC's should be given their own as well).    

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum. There may be questions that I can answer i.e.; how a certain Christian liturgical practice relates to a Jewish practice. Also, if non-EO's can't post in these forums, how can they ask questions?
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« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2009, 09:08:27 AM »

I haven't voted in the poll because I don't know which answer best expresses my feelings here. I agree with Tallitot that non-EOs definitely have a place in many of our discussions. They often bring interesting perspectives that can shed light on what we do.

As for not posting in Converts, where then can inquirers ask questions along the lines of "What will happen when I become Orthodox?" "How do I deal with this issue that really bugs me about Orthodoxy?" Adding an "Inquirers Forum" might solve that of course, and limit discussion in Converts to the concerns of those who have actually converted to the Orthodox Church. But then, would we have to exclude cradle Orthodox from that forum Wink? (BTW, I really despise the cradle vs convert mindset that seems to be so prevalent in many places.)

We really need to avoid too much legalism about who can post where but when the non-EOs post in forums like Faith and Liturgy, it should be to clarify issues, not create debate. There are other forums for that purpose already. Many threads often seem more like debate amongst a handful of posters than a discussion to come to some sort of understanding in keeping with EO faith and practice.

I must say that I really enjoy my participation in OC dot net. I don't post often. I think I see it as an extended coffee hour. My own little mission as much as I truly love it and all who attend simply doesn't provide the same sort of outlet. Because we're scattered all over the Niagara Peninsula, we just don't get together often for this sort of chit-chat that often and should lead to deeper discussions.
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« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2009, 10:45:18 AM »

Obviously I won't vote in the poll, but as for my opinion, I've always been up front with my religious affiliation, even when I would have been better off personally by not disclosing it.

Perhaps I missed a few things along the way, but until I saw this thread, I was not aware that you had again left the Orthodox Church.  I have to confess that I don't always look closely at, or take too seriously, labels that people put near their avatar, unless they are very explicit.  Your "panendeism" tag would be a case in point.
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« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2009, 08:55:29 PM »

But didn't Anastasios answer these questions 2 1/2 years ago when there was a similar thread?

 The question of moderating anti-Christian posters is a separate issue altogether; and it was briefly touched upon, though nothing was done about it.  Concerning all members identifying their faith affiliation has, thus far, not been addressed. 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 09:19:44 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

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« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2009, 09:00:56 PM »

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.
I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO.  It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.


  Also, if non-EO's can't post in these forums, how can they ask questions?
There are other forums on the OC.Net for you to pose questions and participate in meaningful ways.
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« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2009, 09:34:12 PM »

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.
I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO.  It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.


  Also, if non-EO's can't post in these forums, how can they ask questions?
There are other forums on the OC.Net for you to pose questions and participate in meaningful ways.

As a person who was baptized an Orthodox Christian as an infant (would you like me to scan my baptismal certificate to prove it?) I cannot disagree enough with your statements. I find this entire thread arrogant, rude, and dismissive of the knowledge that the non-EO members bring to the forum.

I for one would be disheartened and disgusted if the changes you are suggesting were implemented.

I've never been confused as to anyone's affiliation here, or where they stand.

Why this is so difficult for you, I have no idea.
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« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2009, 09:40:59 PM »

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.
I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO.  It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.


  Also, if non-EO's can't post in these forums, how can they ask questions?
There are other forums on the OC.Net for you to pose questions and participate in meaningful ways.

As a person who was baptized an Orthodox Christian as an infant (would you like me to scan my baptismal certificate to prove it?) I cannot disagree enough with your statements. I find this entire thread arrogant, rude, and dismissive of the knowledge that the non-EO members bring to the forum.

I for one would be disheartened and disgusted if the changes you are suggesting were implemented.

I've never been confused as to anyone's affiliation here, or where they stand.

Why this is so difficult for you, I have no idea.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.  And your snarky comments aside Maureen (are snarky comments rude, arrogant and dismissive in your circle of friends, Maureen?) there are many people who feel it an important issue.  If it bothers you so much that there might be other opinions than your own, why do you return to this thread?  There are 19 folks who tend to agree with you, but there are also 19 folks who tend to agree with me.  Don't we deserve to be heard and answered?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 09:42:49 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

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« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2009, 10:05:20 PM »

I would like to see all members' religious affiliation listed and kindly ask that all non-EO's refrain from posting in the first three sections of the moderated forums; Convert Issues, Faith Issues and Liturgy (I would like to see the Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics removed from Liturgy and relegated to their own sections (The OO's already have their own section and to be fair, the RC's should be given their own as well).   

I'm afraid that you are under the misapprehension that this is specifically an Eastern Orthodox forum.  That is not correct.  This is simply an Orthodox forum, which does not take an explicit position on whether OO's, or EO's, or both, are Orthodox.  The admins, moderators and posters may all have their own beliefs on the matter.  However, there is not an official position taken by the board.

OCnet was founded six years ago by two Eastern Catholics (Fr. Anastasios and Robert) and an Oriental Orthodox (Mor Ephrem.)  Over time, Mor Ephrem left and Fr. Anastasios and Robert converted to the EO Church.  However, the above policy never changed.  EO's and OO's are free to post everywhere on the board and to give their opinions equally, as long as they are polite.

If OCnet were to become an EO forum which just tolerated OO "guests," restricting what we could say, how we identified ourselves, or shoved us into some "Inquirer's Corner" ghetto, I have no doubt that OCnet would lose much, if not all, of its OO posters (including myself.)  I've seen this happen to other Orthodox forums on the internet. 

Of course I don't understand why the other forums felt the need to restrict the OO posters the way they have.  I can only imagine that they were somehow threatened by what we have to say.  As pointed out above, it can be nice to be able to mischaracterize the beliefs of others without fear of them being able to challenge you about it.

Fr. Anastasios is the sole owner of OCnet now, and I respect him tremendously for allowing such freedom of expression here.  I know he is an Old Calendarist EO, and I have no illusions about what his opinion of my Church must be.  However, he treats me and the other OO's here with much more courtesy than do many World Orthodox EO's whose patriarchs are on good terms with my catholicos.  This, among other things, tells me that Fr. Anastasios is secure in his faith and is not at all threatened by what I or other OO's have to say, even though he doubtlessly disagrees with us.  One wonders if the World Orthodox EO's who own the other sites have a faith in their Church as strong as Fr. Anastasios'.  The restrictions they put on the OO's makes me believe they don't, but I could be wrong.


I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, Gabriel.  Can you give me an example of a thread about a specifically EO issue where the OO's have butted in and ruined things?

I and other OO's have stayed out of the many EP vs. MP threads where the EO's here viciously rip into each other's patriarchs.  We've stayed out of the threads where the Antiochians have aired their Church's dirtly laundry.  We made a point of staying out of this horrible thread about Christology, which had to be put into the private forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19081.0.html

We could have gotten involved in that one.  We could have come in and started playing a game of "Name That Heresy," and could have been very uncharitable toward the EO's participating there.  However, we didn't.  We chose, rather, to stay out of it and just watch in horror.   

And now you want us to stay out of the Convert, Faith, and Liturgy sections.  I guess I just want to know why.  Is it that we don't have converts, faith, or liturgy?   Is what we have to say about those topics completely outside of the Orthodox faith?  I noticed that in a recent thread about homosexuality in the Faith section, you asked an Ethiopian poster to state his affiliation:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24174.msg371521.html#msg371521

Was what he had to say there that offensive to our EO members?  I'll bet that his opinion in that thread is more in line with traditional EO beliefs on the topic than the opinions expressed by some of our EO posters.  Perhaps you think that homosexuality is a purely EO issue and that there are no gay OO's?  (OK, my mother would probably tell you there are no gay Armenians, but believe me when I say they exist.)

I guess I just want an example of a thread on an exclusively EO issue where an OO came in and ruined things.  If you could provide an example, I think that would help tremendously.
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« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2009, 10:37:18 PM »

I would like to see all members' religious affiliation listed and kindly ask that all non-EO's refrain from posting in the first three sections of the moderated forums; Convert Issues, Faith Issues and Liturgy (I would like to see the Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics removed from Liturgy and relegated to their own sections (The OO's already have their own section and to be fair, the RC's should be given their own as well).   

I'm afraid that you are under the misapprehension that this is specifically an Eastern Orthodox forum.  That is not correct.
Is this correct?  OrthodoxChristianity.net is NOT and Eastern Orthodox forum?  I'm not so sure you're understanding is correct and here's why I say this-

" Liturgy
Discussion of the services of the Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox church, and for comparative purposes, the Roman Catholic liturgies."

Why provide distinction for the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church?  I could be wrong, but I'd like to know if the OC.Net is or is not and Eastern Orthodox forum.

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, Gabriel.  Can you give me an example of a thread about a specifically EO issue where the OO's have butted in and ruined things?
I'm afraid you (and a few others) are taking this way too personal.  If I have made you feel unwelcome, I want to extend my sincerest apologies to you. 


I noticed that in a recent thread about homosexuality in the Faith section, you asked an Ethiopian poster to state his affiliation:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24174.msg371521.html#msg371521

Was what he had to say there that offensive to our EO members?  I'll bet that his opinion in that thread is more in line with traditional EO beliefs on the topic than the opinions expressed by some of our EO posters.  Perhaps you think that homosexuality is a purely EO issue and that there are no gay OO's?  (OK, my mother would probably tell you there are no gay Armenians, but believe me when I say they exist.)
I simply wanted to know their background.  Easy peasy.  And I also asked that they provide background to the links they listed, something the Mods do every time.

I guess I just want an example of a thread on an exclusively EO issue where an OO came in and ruined things.  If you could provide an example, I think that would help tremendously.

Why are you assuming responsibility?  I never said an OO ruined anything.  I've already stated my reasoning for the concern; I refuse to do so over and over and over.  Suffice it to say, though, you're taking things waaay too personal.
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« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2009, 12:06:54 AM »

Even if I agreed with the apparent thrust of your initiative/poll, it's irrelevant to an internet forum. The administrators could make the 'religious affiliation' field mandatory--but all they can do is make someone fill it out; they can't make them do so honestly. Instituting a policy of required declaration wouldn't have any effect on posters like Papist, GiC, Tallitot, Asteriktos, etc who already completely open about their religious beliefs, and would just someone who started from dishonest motives commit harder to the deception.

That said, I don't see the point. Some of the most unorthodox statements I've seen on this board have come from people who are Orthodox. At what point, after restricting the non-Orthodox from giving answers on certain topics, do we start officially distinguishing between 'Orthodox who have some idea what they are talking about' from 'Orthodox without a clue' and restricting those 'without a clue' from confusing the issue with their unorthodox opinions? And who does the distinguishing? The owner of this board, with all due respect, is an Old Calendrist. To the best of my knowledge, he would be defined as a schismatic by the hierarchs of most EO posters on this board (and definitely so, of course by OO or RC posters). In turn the official position of his Church is that the most of us are schismatic if not outright heterodox (apologies to Fr. Anastasios if I've misstated, I simply don't know where in the range of existing Old Calendrist thought you personally fall).

The number of people who could post in this board would shrink very precipitously.
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« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2009, 12:49:04 AM »

Although option #4 wasn't an option when I created the poll (I asked for it to be included after the fact), this is where I would include myself.  I would like to see all members' religious affiliation listed and kindly ask that all non-EO's refrain from posting in the first three sections of the moderated forums; Convert Issues, Faith Issues and Liturgy (I would like to see the Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics removed from Liturgy and relegated to their own sections (The OO's already have their own section and to be fair, the RC's should be given their own as well).  As for 'checking' for validity, I think anyone being dishonest would eventually betray themselves and therefore be subject to receiving a "Warning" that may or may not lead to their being "Banned".


What is the mission of this forum?  What is it's purpose, it's Raison d'être?  Can anyone tell me please?  Anyone can join, even militant atheists who openly mock Christ and His followers.  Heck they're even allowed complete access to all of the forums.  Why?  I'm glad that anyone can participate, but it seems responsible to put certain restrictions on certain demographics.  Perhaps now would be a great time for one of our esteemed administrators to emerge from the shadows and provide us with the mission and purpose of orthodoxchristianity.net and then provide us with answers as to whether or not that criteria is being met.  If the mission and purpose is to provide Orthodox Christians a safe place to ask questions as well as inquirers to feel at ease to ask and learn about Eastern Orthodoxy, then, compared to monachos.net (who shares the same mission and purpose), the OC.Net has many opportunities for improvement.  Some time back the administrators and a few moderators asked for input and opinions on how to improve the OC.Net- consider this whole thread my input.   

So you feel non-EO "demographics" shouldn't post in -entire- sections and all their subcategories, and be "relegated"?  With special ghetto threads for heretics and apostates, too - ?  I really do "get" your frustration, but I don't see how simply listing one's religious membership is going to be reliable way to determine the trustworthiness of their responses.  Maybe the junior members are sort of on probation anyway, and most of the old-timers sort of know each other.  So anyway, I am EO in terms of membership, this is my classification... but what does this mean, if I also share that I have serious doubts about some Orthodox teachings?  I just don't know far this disclosure can or should go.  If non-EO can't post in the main sections I'd seriously reconsider belonging to the forum, myself.  Not sure I'd be missed, ha-ha.
I personally enjoy hearing the perspectives of people who view things differently. 
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« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2009, 12:54:04 AM »

Oh, I didn't realize this had sort of wrapped up. Sorry.  Well, my 2 cents are in. Smiley
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« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2009, 01:21:28 AM »

I don't think the thread has ended yet, so no worries Smiley

Also, something that might be of some help is if we brought back the option that used to be in our profiles, where you could describe your religious affiliation/journey in some detail. I'm pretty sure that was on this forum before that you could do that in your profile.
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« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2009, 02:06:58 AM »

Also, something that might be of some help is if we brought back the option that used to be in our profiles, where you could describe your religious affiliation/journey in some detail.

I like that idea.  A small blurb (maybe similar in length to what is currently allowed for a signature) in your profile about your beliefs/history.
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« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2009, 05:45:41 AM »

Gabriel, if you're talking about some kind of new forum policy, I'm not sure why you haven't taken this up privately with Fr. Chris (assuming you haven't) and feel it necessary to try to manipulate him by drumming up a groundswell of posters who all want what you want.  If that's what you're doing, then I need to go on record as saying that I don't like your tactics.  You have a medium for bringing up general concerns about how this forum is run, and that's the private messaging system.  Please use it.  (DISCLAIMER:  I'm merely speaking my opinions as a member of this forum.  I do not intend this advice to be understood as a moderatorial directive.)

Additionally, I have to agree with Schultz that if you really want to know what faith tradition a person represents, all you need to do is ask that person.  I'm not going to apologize for saying that I think you're demanding too much of our posters by asking that everyone identify his/her faith tradition up front.  I'm also not pleased with your idea that non-EO should refrain from posting altogether on the Convert Issues, Faith Issues, and Liturgy boards.  I can't speak for the other two boards, but I will speak for Faith Issues by saying that I already monitor non-Orthodox participation quite closely in my section to keep threads focused on discussion of matters pertinent to Orthodox Christian faith (both EO and OO, BTW), so I really don't understand what you're complaining about there.  I deem it quite detrimental to discussions on my board, though, to discourage the non-Orthodox from posting there altogether.  Papist is right that sometimes Catholics and Protestants and other non-Orthodox need to be allowed to clear up misconceptions that come up in our discussions.  I'm not going to shut the door to that.

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative.  I therefore suggest that you would do well to withdraw them and just adapt to things the way they are.
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« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2009, 08:37:17 AM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 08:42:09 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2009, 03:14:25 PM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.
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« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2009, 07:10:43 PM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".


Thanks for the kindness, brother.  You know, with a few exceptions, so far I've been labeled
 
1. Uncivil,
2. Rude,
3. Dismissive,
4. Arrogant,
5. Selfish,
6. Manipulative,
Demanding,
and just
8. Sheer Lazy.

 And I wasn't even trying.  Cheesy  Why, I bet I riled up more folks than GiC after 10 shots into a handle.   laugh laugh Can't you just feel the love and charity flowin'? With the exception of hurting some folks' feelings, it's fine by me; usually when a small handful of folks become undone and unreasonably mad, you can bet you're doing something right.  I guess the most telling thing about this is 1) people, regardless of who and what they are, will curse you for any reason so you may as well just stop trying to please every body and 2) people can work themselves up into a frenzy for just about anything.  I declare, y'all!  The least I asked was that, if you haven't already done so, it'd be a swell idea if you'd announce your faith affiliation as a courtesy for everyone else.  If you're embarrassed or ashamed of your faith, then by all means: don't tell us.  It ain't no big deal, I promise. 

PS- Thanks for all those who sent the PM well-wishes!   
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 07:16:14 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

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« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2009, 07:12:29 PM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.

Well hell, rePete, I thought we done buried that hatchet.  Huh  It makes me sad that you don't like me still.  Kiss
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 07:13:53 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

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« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2009, 07:55:02 PM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".


Thanks for the kindness, brother.  You know, with a few exceptions, so far I've been labeled
 
1. Uncivil,
2. Rude,
3. Dismissive,
4. Arrogant,
5. Selfish,
6. Manipulative,
Demanding,
and just
8. Sheer Lazy.

 And I wasn't even trying.  Cheesy  Why, I bet I riled up more folks than GiC after 10 shots into a handle.   laugh laugh Can't you just feel the love and charity flowin'? With the exception of hurting some folks' feelings, it's fine by me; usually when a small handful of folks become undone and unreasonably mad, you can bet you're doing something right.  I guess the most telling thing about this is 1) people, regardless of who and what they are, will curse you for any reason so you may as well just stop trying to please every body and 2) people can work themselves up into a frenzy for just about anything.  I declare, y'all!  The least I asked was that, if you haven't already done so, it'd be a swell idea if you'd announce your faith affiliation as a courtesy for everyone else.  If you're embarrassed or ashamed of your faith, then by all means: don't tell us.  It ain't no big deal, I promise. 

PS- Thanks for all those who sent the PM well-wishes!   


Once again, I did not label YOU as uncivil or lazy, but your argument.  I thought WE cleared that up and "buried the hatchet", so to speak? 

Apparently not. 
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« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2009, 08:10:01 PM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".


Thanks for the kindness, brother.  You know, with a few exceptions, so far I've been labeled
 
1. Uncivil,
2. Rude,
3. Dismissive,
4. Arrogant,
5. Selfish,
6. Manipulative,
Demanding,
and just
8. Sheer Lazy.

 And I wasn't even trying.  Cheesy  Why, I bet I riled up more folks than GiC after 10 shots into a handle.   laugh laugh Can't you just feel the love and charity flowin'? With the exception of hurting some folks' feelings, it's fine by me; usually when a small handful of folks become undone and unreasonably mad, you can bet you're doing something right.  I guess the most telling thing about this is 1) people, regardless of who and what they are, will curse you for any reason so you may as well just stop trying to please every body and 2) people can work themselves up into a frenzy for just about anything.  I declare, y'all!  The least I asked was that, if you haven't already done so, it'd be a swell idea if you'd announce your faith affiliation as a courtesy for everyone else.  If you're embarrassed or ashamed of your faith, then by all means: don't tell us.  It ain't no big deal, I promise. 

PS- Thanks for all those who sent the PM well-wishes!   

But I've been able to keep folks riled up...even months later after a prolonged absence. You have yet to achieve that level of influence over people's sanity. Wink
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 08:10:21 PM by GiC » Logged

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« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2009, 08:18:18 PM »


Let's all be civil.

We all love each other...and you know it...even if you don't want to admit it!   Wink

There is something to be said for a person who is posting to identify their religious persuasion.  That opportunity rests with the labels beneath/over their avatar/name.
If folks would simply identify their "faith" in that spot, there would be no need for any other disclosure.

You guys are making it much more difficult than need be.

It's simple.

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« Reply #84 on: November 06, 2009, 08:29:45 PM »

But I've been able to keep folks riled up...even months later after a prolonged absence. You have yet to achieve that level of influence over people's sanity. Wink

Hey, someone's got to set the bar high. Wink

Personally, I don't find the "faith label" offensive. What I find offensive is his suggestion to ban non-EO from certain forums. THAT is what I find rude and offensive.
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« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2009, 09:52:33 PM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".


Thanks for the kindness, brother.  You know, with a few exceptions, so far I've been labeled
 
1. Uncivil,
2. Rude,
3. Dismissive,
4. Arrogant,
5. Selfish,
6. Manipulative,
Demanding,
and just
8. Sheer Lazy.

 And I wasn't even trying.  Cheesy  Why, I bet I riled up more folks than GiC after 10 shots into a handle.   laugh laugh Can't you just feel the love and charity flowin'? With the exception of hurting some folks' feelings, it's fine by me; usually when a small handful of folks become undone and unreasonably mad, you can bet you're doing something right.  I guess the most telling thing about this is 1) people, regardless of who and what they are, will curse you for any reason so you may as well just stop trying to please every body and 2) people can work themselves up into a frenzy for just about anything.  I declare, y'all!  The least I asked was that, if you haven't already done so, it'd be a swell idea if you'd announce your faith affiliation as a courtesy for everyone else.  If you're embarrassed or ashamed of your faith, then by all means: don't tell us.  It ain't no big deal, I promise. 

PS- Thanks for all those who sent the PM well-wishes!   


Once again, I did not label YOU as uncivil or lazy, but your argument.  I thought WE cleared that up and "buried the hatchet", so to speak? 

Apparently not. 


Sorry Schultz, I meant to say, "So far I, or my thread, has been labeled...".  Now we can be friends again.  Smiley  Maybe one day, if we're able to meet at one of these fabled OC.Net picnics, you and I can enjoy one your zymurology concoctions.
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« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2009, 11:03:27 PM »

It should be required to post one’s religious faith.  Someone on this forum could be an infiltrate from The Raëlians Nudist Temple of The Holy of Face of L. Ron Hubbard. They could be covertly pushing Purification Rundown for today’s discounted price of only $50,000! That's right, only $50,000!  And if you call before midnight tonight, you will receive a bonus:  a second Purifs for free!  Call 1-800-RLY-BOGUS now!

But wait! The next 100 callers will receive a free, miniature Purifs kit consisting of a bottle of Niacin tablets, an electric heating pad, and a extra-large Fleet enema. Don't wait! Call now!
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« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2009, 11:55:46 PM »

I certainly don't mind non-EO replying to various topics... But I do think their affiliation needs to be clarified. There is an existing feature for religion/denomination/jurisdiction and I think it is something everyone should have to fill out. This way people will be less likely to read non-EO replies and think that they are EO positions.
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« Reply #88 on: November 07, 2009, 12:39:12 AM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.

Well hell, rePete, I thought we done buried that hatchet.  Huh  It makes me sad that you don't like me still.  Kiss
Yeah, that hatchet remains buried and is not one of those past dealings I'm talking about here, so I wonder why you have to bring it up of all the possible incidents you could cite.  (BTW, you're really not helping your cause by trotting out such unwelcome and disrespectful nicknames as "RePete".  Such indecencies only serve to confirm those statements that you're being rude and dismissive.)  I'm actually referring to all those times in the past that you've whined about something.

Also note that I've said nothing on this thread about whether I like you or not, so I wonder why you feel the need to assume that I have and take everything I've said so personally.  The only thing I've criticized on this thread is your request that people identify their faith traditions (which they're already encouraged to do) and that non-EO not post on the Convert, Faith Issues, and Liturgy boards (one of those being the board I moderate).
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« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2009, 01:01:45 AM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.

Well hell, rePete, I thought we done buried that hatchet.  Huh  It makes me sad that you don't like me still.  Kiss
Yeah, that hatchet remains buried and is not one of those past dealings I'm talking about here, so I wonder why you have to bring it up of all the possible incidents you could cite.  (BTW, you're really not helping your cause by trotting out such unwelcome and disrespectful nicknames as "RePete".  Such indecencies only serve to confirm those statements that you're being rude and dismissive.)  I'm actually referring to all those times in the past that you've whined about something.

Also note that I've said nothing on this thread about whether I like you or not, so I wonder why you feel the need to assume that I have and take everything I've said so personally.  The only thing I've criticized on this thread is your request that people identify their faith traditions (which they're already encouraged to do) and that non-EO not post on the Convert, Faith Issues, and Liturgy boards (one of those being the board I moderate).

"...based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past."

  Based on the thousands of other posts where other people bring up their concerns, and since the moderators have extended the invitation to voice our concerns, well gosh PtA, I thought I could join y'all's party too.  But when you say things like the above, you make me out to be some sort of troublemaker or agitator.  I don't know about you, but these kinds of things don't sit well with me and when I feel like someone's knocking on my door, better believe I'm answering.  So now it looks like we've got ourselves a choice, sport.  We can just agree to disagree and move on or we can draw this out another couple of pages with meaningless back-and-forth.  I know the Admins have seen this thread so if they think it's worth pursuing, I guess they'll pursue it. 
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« Reply #90 on: November 07, 2009, 01:22:53 AM »

Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum).

Thank you, George, for confirming this.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 01:23:23 AM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: November 07, 2009, 01:44:18 AM »

We can just agree to disagree and move on or we can draw this out another couple of pages with meaningless back-and-forth.
A third option is to actually deal with the issues being discussed rather than getting caught up in questioning the motives of the agent of the other side of the argument.
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« Reply #92 on: November 07, 2009, 01:44:56 AM »

Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum).

Thank you, George, for confirming this.

No problem! Just stating the obvious.
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« Reply #93 on: November 07, 2009, 01:49:53 AM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.

Well hell, rePete, I thought we done buried that hatchet.  Huh  It makes me sad that you don't like me still.  Kiss
Yeah, that hatchet remains buried and is not one of those past dealings I'm talking about here, so I wonder why you have to bring it up of all the possible incidents you could cite.  (BTW, you're really not helping your cause by trotting out such unwelcome and disrespectful nicknames as "RePete".  Such indecencies only serve to confirm those statements that you're being rude and dismissive.)  I'm actually referring to all those times in the past that you've whined about something.

Also note that I've said nothing on this thread about whether I like you or not, so I wonder why you feel the need to assume that I have and take everything I've said so personally.  The only thing I've criticized on this thread is your request that people identify their faith traditions (which they're already encouraged to do) and that non-EO not post on the Convert, Faith Issues, and Liturgy boards (one of those being the board I moderate).

"...based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past."

  Based on the thousands of other posts where other people bring up their concerns, and since the moderators have extended the invitation to voice our concerns, well gosh PtA, I thought I could join y'all's party too.  But when you say things like the above, you make me out to be some sort of troublemaker or agitator.  I don't know about you, but these kinds of things don't sit well with me and when I feel like someone's knocking on my door, better believe I'm answering.
Even if it means diminishing your request by confirming the negative opinions others have expressed of what you hope to accomplish with this thread? Huh

You see, Gabriel, I've been completely forthright with what I think about your requests, just as so many others have been.  Would you wish that I had done any differently?  You asked for opinions, and I gave you mine.  As you can see, I'm not the only one who doesn't like what you're asking for.  That's all I'm saying here.
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« Reply #94 on: November 07, 2009, 02:19:44 AM »

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. 
I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.
Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.

Well hell, rePete, I thought we done buried that hatchet.  Huh  It makes me sad that you don't like me still.  Kiss
Yeah, that hatchet remains buried and is not one of those past dealings I'm talking about here, so I wonder why you have to bring it up of all the possible incidents you could cite.  (BTW, you're really not helping your cause by trotting out such unwelcome and disrespectful nicknames as "RePete".  Such indecencies only serve to confirm those statements that you're being rude and dismissive.)  I'm actually referring to all those times in the past that you've whined about something.

Also note that I've said nothing on this thread about whether I like you or not, so I wonder why you feel the need to assume that I have and take everything I've said so personally.  The only thing I've criticized on this thread is your request that people identify their faith traditions (which they're already encouraged to do) and that non-EO not post on the Convert, Faith Issues, and Liturgy boards (one of those being the board I moderate).

"...based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past."

  Based on the thousands of other posts where other people bring up their concerns, and since the moderators have extended the invitation to voice our concerns, well gosh PtA, I thought I could join y'all's party too.  But when you say things like the above, you make me out to be some sort of troublemaker or agitator.  I don't know about you, but these kinds of things don't sit well with me and when I feel like someone's knocking on my door, better believe I'm answering.
Even if it means diminishing your request by confirming the negative opinions others have expressed of what you hope to accomplish with this thread? Huh

You see, Gabriel, I've been completely forthright with what I think about your requests, just as so many others have been.  Would you wish that I had done any differently?  You asked for opinions, and I gave you mine.  As you can see, I'm not the only one who doesn't like what you're asking for.  That's all I'm saying here.

 OK.  As it stands now, 24 folks like things the way they are now.  That's the way they feel and I can appreciate that.  Now 17 folks voted #2 with an additional 6 who voted for option #4 meaning they too want people to distinguish their faith affiliation.  This means there are 23 folks who agree with option #2.  So, the way I look at is that it's pretty much a tie at this point.  When y'all get upset with me, you're actually getting upset with 22 others as well.  What do you have to say about those folks?  Sure, I started the thread, but I just voiced what others are thinking.  But you know what?  Even if I were the only one who voted for #2 I wouldn't care; I've put some thought into this issue, feel very strongly about it and I ain't changing my mind.  Period.  But neither you nor I make the decisions around here.  That's all I'm gonna say about it now because it's pointless to go any further.  The admins will either change things or they won't. 

And in the future, if I have something to say about something else that's on my mind, I'll say it.  So don't think that just because this is my last post on this matter means that I can be bullied.   
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« Reply #95 on: November 07, 2009, 02:35:43 AM »

Quote
What do you have to say about those folks?

Well, to the 41 people* who think that posters should not be banned from posting in certain sub-forums, though they should probably say up front what their religious affiliation is, I would say: I agree with you, and there's not really anything else that needs to be said. As for the 9 who would like non-EO to be banned from posting in certain sub-forums, I don't really have anything to say other than, you have your opinion and I understand why you have it, even though I disagree.


*And presumably 47+ people if non-EO were voting in this poll.
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« Reply #96 on: November 07, 2009, 04:41:42 AM »

Even if it means diminishing your request by confirming the negative opinions others have expressed of what you hope to accomplish with this thread? Huh

You see, Gabriel, I've been completely forthright with what I think about your requests, just as so many others have been.  Would you wish that I had done any differently?  You asked for opinions, and I gave you mine.  As you can see, I'm not the only one who doesn't like what you're asking for.  That's all I'm saying here.

 OK.  As it stands now, 24 folks like things the way they are now.  That's the way they feel and I can appreciate that.  Now 17 folks voted #2 with an additional 6 who voted for option #4 meaning they too want people to distinguish their faith affiliation.  This means there are 23 folks who agree with option #2.  So, the way I look at is that it's pretty much a tie at this point.
I suppose you can read the poll statistics any way you like, but you're only looking at half the picture.  You also suggested that non-EO should not post on three of our moderated boards.  Only 9 of the 50 who voted thus far (18%) voiced their agreement with this other suggestion by voting for Options 3 and 4.  When you look at that, I don't think you have anywhere near the support for the whole of your agenda as you like to think.

When y'all get upset with me, you're actually getting upset with 22 others as well.
Your attempt to play the numbers game is not working.  You are the one who initiated this thread, and it is therefore only to you and your ideas that I and many others here have responded.  The fact that 22 others happen to agree with one of your suggestions is immaterial.  It is you and you alone who started this thread by asking for a vote on your suggestions, so it is with you and you alone that I have my beef.

BTW, you're missing the very point of my presence on this thread.  I might actually have been more open to considering your suggestions if you didn't look so much as if you were whining and trying to draw public sympathy to your side.

What do you have to say about those folks?  Sure, I started the thread, but I just voiced what others are thinking.
And I also voiced what some others are thinking.

But you know what?  Even if I were the only one who voted for #2 I wouldn't care; I've put some thought into this issue, feel very strongly about it and I ain't changing my mind.  Period.
But what about Options 3 & 4?  Have you forgotten that you put those up for a vote as well?

But neither you nor I make the decisions around here.  That's all I'm gonna say about it now because it's pointless to go any further.  The admins will either change things or they won't. 

And in the future, if I have something to say about something else that's on my mind, I'll say it.  So don't think that just because this is my last post on this matter means that I can be bullied.   
Who's trying to bully you?  You asked for opinions, and you got them.  If you don't want people to voice negative opinions about what you would like to see happen around here, don't put your vision up for a vote and ask us to respond.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 04:51:49 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #97 on: November 07, 2009, 08:51:38 AM »

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.
I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO.  It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.

Fine, you're free to ignore my postings in those forums.

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« Reply #98 on: November 07, 2009, 10:33:19 AM »

I have a question about the second option:

Quote
All non-EO membes should identify their religious affiliation.

Does this mean that EO's don't have to identify their religious affiliations?  So the OO's, Catholics and others would have to put what they are, but the EO's could leave the space blank?

If someone is leaving it blank, how do you know if they are an EO, or someone from another Church who just didn't fill it out?
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« Reply #99 on: November 07, 2009, 01:57:59 PM »

Even if it means diminishing your request by confirming the negative opinions others have expressed of what you hope to accomplish with this thread? Huh

You see, Gabriel, I've been completely forthright with what I think about your requests, just as so many others have been.  Would you wish that I had done any differently?  You asked for opinions, and I gave you mine.  As you can see, I'm not the only one who doesn't like what you're asking for.  That's all I'm saying here.

 OK.  As it stands now, 24 folks like things the way they are now.  That's the way they feel and I can appreciate that.  Now 17 folks voted #2 with an additional 6 who voted for option #4 meaning they too want people to distinguish their faith affiliation.  This means there are 23 folks who agree with option #2.  So, the way I look at is that it's pretty much a tie at this point.
I suppose you can read the poll statistics any way you like, but you're only looking at half the picture.  You also suggested that non-EO should not post on three of our moderated boards.  Only 9 of the 50 who voted thus far (18%) voiced their agreement with this other suggestion by voting for Options 3 and 4.  When you look at that, I don't think you have anywhere near the support for the whole of your agenda as you like to think.

When y'all get upset with me, you're actually getting upset with 22 others as well.
Your attempt to play the numbers game is not working.  You are the one who initiated this thread, and it is therefore only to you and your ideas that I and many others here have responded.  The fact that 22 others happen to agree with one of your suggestions is immaterial.  It is you and you alone who started this thread by asking for a vote on your suggestions, so it is with you and you alone that I have my beef.

BTW, you're missing the very point of my presence on this thread.  I might actually have been more open to considering your suggestions if you didn't look so much as if you were whining and trying to draw public sympathy to your side.

What do you have to say about those folks?  Sure, I started the thread, but I just voiced what others are thinking.
And I also voiced what some others are thinking.

But you know what?  Even if I were the only one who voted for #2 I wouldn't care; I've put some thought into this issue, feel very strongly about it and I ain't changing my mind.  Period.
But what about Options 3 & 4?  Have you forgotten that you put those up for a vote as well?

But neither you nor I make the decisions around here.  That's all I'm gonna say about it now because it's pointless to go any further.  The admins will either change things or they won't. 

And in the future, if I have something to say about something else that's on my mind, I'll say it.  So don't think that just because this is my last post on this matter means that I can be bullied.   
Who's trying to bully you?  You asked for opinions, and you got them.
 

 I'll give you an example of what I was talking about.  Salpy, Ozgeorge and Papist, just to name a few, all strongly disagree with me.  But if you compare their kind and polite sentiments with a few of the others, you'll see what I mean.  Some of those other responses are just downright mean and nasty.  From one standpoint, that's not OK.  From another standpoint, that's their right.  I'm just saying that that dog won't hunt with me.  And as far as reading the numbers goes, I never took statistics so I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but it looks like I've got a good point.   
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« Reply #100 on: November 07, 2009, 02:01:16 PM »

I have a question about the second option:

Quote
All non-EO membes should identify their religious affiliation.

Does this mean that EO's don't have to identify their religious affiliations?  So the OO's, Catholics and others would have to put what they are, but the EO's could leave the space blank?


 I guess I failed there, Salpy.  Embarrassed  Thanks for pointing that out.  The way I had envisioned it, no one would be exempt.  If someone has something to say, be totally upfront about it.
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« Reply #101 on: November 07, 2009, 02:49:57 PM »

I think diversity is great. I think it's wonderful that former EOs and others enjoy spending time here and are free to comment-their input is valuable too!
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« Reply #102 on: November 08, 2009, 03:45:28 AM »

I was thinking on and off today about the OC.Net; how it's NOT, afterall, an Eastern Orthodox site, and my thoughts on everyone identifying their faith affiliation and it occurred to me about how confusion could (and does) occur.  For example, when you look at the main page, you find headings such as "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion- Discussions related to Orthodoxy in comparison and contrast to other Christian faiths" and "Orthodox Family Forum- Discussion of items related to Orthodox parenting".  When reading these headings, it's easy to assume that when you see the word 'Orthodox' here, it must be Eastern Orthodox.  The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.]) and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
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« Reply #103 on: November 08, 2009, 04:20:52 AM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])
Technically, for 99.99% of our moderators to be EO, we would need a staff of 10,000 moderators.  Do you really want this forum to be that tightly moderated? Wink

and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
Then again, maybe the answer is for you to take full responsibility for learning who we are and what we're about rather than blame other persons for your confusion.
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« Reply #104 on: November 08, 2009, 04:34:19 AM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])
Technically, for 99.99% of our moderators to be EO, we would need a staff of 10,000 moderators.  Do you really want this forum to be that tightly moderated? Wink

and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
Then again, maybe the answer is for you to take full responsibility for learning who we are and what we're about rather than blame other persons for your confusion.

How is trying to help the site become better and more user friendly 'blaming'?  And remember, opinions and advice are openly solicited by the Admins so if you don't like me participating, maybe you should take it up with them.   
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« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2009, 07:52:11 AM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])   
(SNIP) 
Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 

I'm going to continue staying out of this one.  I appreciate the feedback, even if I don't agree with many of the suggestions.

A. I'll echo the statistical analysis of PtA.  1 out of the 10 Moderators is OO, which is 10%, not 0.01%.  Even if you include the 2 EO Global Moderators, that's 1 out of 12, or 8.33%, not 0.01%.
B. For most of the site's history, it has had 1 OO out of 3 Administrators, and the other two (for a long time, before Fr. Chris' promotion) were both Old Calendarists/Traditionalists (for whom the rest of us might as well be OO, since communion is not shared between us).
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« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2009, 11:39:20 AM »

  it's easy to assume that when you see the word 'Orthodox' here, it must be Eastern Orthodox. 

OO's don't make that assumption.  Speak for yourself.
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« Reply #107 on: November 08, 2009, 11:58:41 AM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])
Technically, for 99.99% of our moderators to be EO, we would need a staff of 10,000 moderators.  Do you really want this forum to be that tightly moderated? Wink

and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
Then again, maybe the answer is for you to take full responsibility for learning who we are and what we're about rather than blame other persons for your confusion.

How is trying to help the site become better and more user friendly 'blaming'?
When you talk about why you're confused, do you look into yourself to see the cause of your confusion, or do you see the cause to be outside yourself?
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« Reply #108 on: November 08, 2009, 12:20:41 PM »

A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.

Do you really believe OO's parent their children differently from EO's?


Quote
  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)

I know I and other OO's have participated there.  Most recently I have dealt with Mr. Young about the issue of sheep stealing.  Yes, OO's have interaction with "other Christians" also.


Quote
  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus. 

OO's participate there also. 


Quote
Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

Since I wasn't here when OCnet was originally founded, I can't tell you why the OO and two Eastern Catholics who founded it decided to put in an OO forum.  I just always assumed it was because there are so many questions that come up about OO's, that it would be convenient to have it.  As you can see from looking at the stats board, the OO section gets a lot of people looking at it.

I don't know why there aren't further subdivisions.  Maybe there should be a Modernist forum, where Modernist EO's can discuss how gays should be married, or how women should commune during their periods with their heads uncovered.  Maybe there should be a Traditionalist forum where ecumenism and the calendar issues can be discussed.  You may want to pm Fr. Chris and make these suggestions.


Quote
I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.

Is there any place where it states that it is specifically an EO site?

That this is not an EO site is easy to discern.  If it were an EO site, OO's wouldn't be participating.  That is not because OO's don't want to participate in EO sites; OO's have attempted to participate in at least a couple of EO sites that I know of on the internet.  The reason why OO's don't participate in EO sites is because EO sites inevitably put such restrictions on how and where OO's can post, that the OO's end up leaving.  This happened at both Monachos and the E-Cafe. 

Why EO sites feel the need to restrict OO speech is something that has never been adequately explained to me.  As I stated in an earlier post, I suspect it may be that the owners of those sites are threatened by what we have to say.  Another explanation could be the "Empire mentality":  "Those who don't conform to our councils must be humiliated and subjugated."  Yet another explanation could be that the owners of those sites feel that if they treat the OO's like inferiors, we will convert to the EO Church.

At the risk of being petty, I will point out that no OO sites I am aware of restrict EO members the way OO's are restricted on EO sites.

In any event, if OCnet were to become an EO site, I have no doubt that the same sort of restrictions would eventually be put on OO's here.  It always happens.  This thread and other communications I've had with people prove that.  You see, you are not the first person here to suggest that OO's be restricted.  Exactly two years ago, some EO's here were trying to convince the admins to restrict us and establish similar rules.  Among other things, they were advocating the removal of the OO section, that OO's not be able to call ourselves "Orthodox," that OO's should have to be polite to EO's, but EO's should not have to be polite to us, etc.  These discussions were not made public, but they happened.  I thank God that Fr. Anastasios is not threatened by us the way so many others are, and that he decided to keep things the way they are.  The fact is that if this board became officially EO and went the way the others have, OCnet would lose its OO members and audience.

 

« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 12:25:03 PM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #109 on: November 08, 2009, 02:14:42 PM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])
Technically, for 99.99% of our moderators to be EO, we would need a staff of 10,000 moderators.  Do you really want this forum to be that tightly moderated? Wink

and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
Then again, maybe the answer is for you to take full responsibility for learning who we are and what we're about rather than blame other persons for your confusion.

How is trying to help the site become better and more user friendly 'blaming'?
When you talk about why you're confused, do you look into yourself to see the cause of your confusion, or do you see the cause to be outside yourself?

Hmm.  You're either not be paying attention or I guess I could ask you the same thing.
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« Reply #110 on: November 08, 2009, 04:51:40 PM »

The moderators are EO (in fact, I think 99.99% of the mods here are EO [again, no disrespect to Salpy.])
Technically, for 99.99% of our moderators to be EO, we would need a staff of 10,000 moderators.  Do you really want this forum to be that tightly moderated? Wink

and most, if not all, of the topics under those headings are of EO nature.  Now, certainly 'Orthodox' in the Christian setting isn't as narrow a definition as a visitor or newbie might think.  A person could click on the discussions of items related to Orthodox parenting, thinking that they might find an OO specific topic but they'd won't.  And I think almost everyone assumes that when they read "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion", that the 'Orthodox' means Eastern Orthodox (at least that would be reasonable judging from the thread titles.)  Then there's the "Convert Issues- Discussion of issues revolving around conversion to the Orthodox Christian faith" and "Faith Issues- Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  Again, it's too easy to assume that we're discussing Eastern Orthodox Christian faith because almost all of the topic threads deal with Eastern Orthodox convert questions and neither one specify which 'Orthodox' faith is the focus.  Now when you compare these headings with the "Oriental Orthodox Discussion- A non-polemical discussion of specifically Oriental Orthodox topics", it further adds to the confusion because it's easy to assume, "Since they've specifically designated this section for the OO's, all the other 'Orthodox' headings must be for EO's."   

So, maybe the answer doesn't lie in everyone identifying their faith affiliation (although that's a start); maybe the answer lies in re-naming these headings.  I also think it would be very helpful if the site stated upfront (or anywhere really) that this site is not and Eastern Orthodox site.  Because with most of the headings being somewhat ambiguous, and most of the moderators (and not to mention ALL of the Admins being EO!), there's a whole lot of potential confusion. 
Then again, maybe the answer is for you to take full responsibility for learning who we are and what we're about rather than blame other persons for your confusion.

How is trying to help the site become better and more user friendly 'blaming'?
When you talk about why you're confused, do you look into yourself to see the cause of your confusion, or do you see the cause to be outside yourself?

Hmm.  You're either not be paying attention or I guess I could ask you the same thing.
What do you mean?
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« Reply #111 on: November 08, 2009, 06:43:24 PM »

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.
I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO.  It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.
Gabriel, if we are talking about answering practical questions such as the rubrics of the Liturgy, isn't a correct answer correct no matter who gives it?
And how do you know that someone who states they are Eastern Orthodox on the forum actually is Eastern Orthodox?
Our Lord said: "By their fruits you shall know them", not "read their name tags".
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« Reply #112 on: November 08, 2009, 09:50:06 PM »

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.
I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO.  It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.
Gabriel, if we are talking about answering practical questions such as the rubrics of the Liturgy, isn't a correct answer correct no matter who gives it?
Sure, but that's not the point.

And how do you know that someone who states they are Eastern Orthodox on the forum actually is Eastern Orthodox?
Our Lord said: "By their fruits you shall know them", not "read their name tags".
Witty, George; I'll give you that.  Smiley  Why don't we just rename the forum to Dot.Net?  People will be able to figure out it's a Christian site, right?  The 'Orthodox' part will throw 'em off for sure, but at least they'll know it's Christian.  What do you say, fellow Dot Netter?  You see, very few folks use their real names; in fact there's a lot we don't (and can't) know about each other so I'm not sure that verse would apply here, IMO.  Identifying our faith affiliation won't solve the world's problems but it'll cut down on some of the ambiguity here. 
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« Reply #113 on: November 08, 2009, 09:56:42 PM »


I suppose you can read the poll statistics any way you like, but you're only looking at half the picture.  You also suggested that non-EO should not post on three of our moderated boards.  Only 9 of the 50 who voted thus far (18%) voiced their agreement with this other suggestion by voting for Options 3 and 4.  When you look at that, I don't think you have anywhere near the support for the whole of your agenda as you like to think.

 As I said earlier, I never took statistics so I'm not sure how to read the numbers.  Here's how I look at them.  Option 1: these folks want  no change at all.  Options 2, 3 and 4: these folks want some type of change.  I just tally up the numbers for change and subtracted the option 1 numbers.  As it stands now, I lost.  But that's OK because

 "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, dog-gone-it, people like me." ~ Stuart Smalley  Wink  
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« Reply #114 on: November 09, 2009, 04:34:40 AM »

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.
I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO.  It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.
Gabriel, if we are talking about answering practical questions such as the rubrics of the Liturgy, isn't a correct answer correct no matter who gives it?
Sure, but that's not the point.
I'm not sure then what is the point. If someone who identifies as Eastern Orthodox gives an incorrect answer about Eastern Orthodox practice, is that somehow preferable to someone who identifies as Anglican giving the right one?

And how do you know that someone who states they are Eastern Orthodox on the forum actually is Eastern Orthodox?
Our Lord said: "By their fruits you shall know them", not "read their name tags".
Witty, George; I'll give you that.  Smiley  Why don't we just rename the forum to Dot.Net?  People will be able to figure out it's a Christian site, right?  The 'Orthodox' part will throw 'em off for sure, but at least they'll know it's Christian.  What do you say, fellow Dot Netter?  You see, very few folks use their real names; in fact there's a lot we don't (and can't) know about each other so I'm not sure that verse would apply here, IMO.  Identifying our faith affiliation won't solve the world's problems but it'll cut down on some of the ambiguity here. 
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Consider this scenario: A new poster called Joe Blogs comes on and identifies as "Faith: Eastern Orthodox, Juristiction OCA Diocese of the South". If Joe Blogs then makes a post in which he states that Our Lord Jesus Christ "has a single Incarnate Nature and a single Incarnate Will" and that the veneration of Icons is "up to individual choice whether to consider it idolatry or not", is their Faith really Eastern Orthodox? How has ambiguity been "cut down" by Joe Blogs identifying as "Eastern Orthodox"? This is what I was meaning by quoting the verse "by their fruits (not their name tags) you shall know them."
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 04:37:28 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #115 on: November 12, 2009, 11:58:38 AM »

Obviously I won't vote in the poll, but as for my opinion, I've always been up front with my religious affiliation, even when I would have been better off personally by not disclosing it.

Perhaps I missed a few things along the way, but until I saw this thread, I was not aware that you had again left the Orthodox Church.  I have to confess that I don't always look closely at, or take too seriously, labels that people put near their avatar, unless they are very explicit.  Your "panendeism" tag would be a case in point.

Well, certainly this thread has made me think about how I participate at this forum. For instance, I've not voted in 3 recent polls that I came across in the last week, because they struck me as polls that were best left to Orthodox and/or Christian posters. And I'm going to try and be more explicit about my non-Orthodoxy when I mention something wildly unorthodox in a post. And I admit that I can understand you not realising that I had left Orthodoxy again. However, I think I've made enough changes, and that there are now enough signs, to demonstrate to anyone who cares that I am not Orthodox. My faith is listed as panendeism. My jurisdiction is listed as Unitarian Universalist. My avatar is of a 19th century agnostic, and even if you don't know who he is, the caption below it at least implies that he is not Orthodox. The first quote in my signature is by an atheist. The second quote is by an agnostic. And if that's not enough, my custom title says explicitly that I'm not Orthodox. I'm trying to meet some of these fellows that I disagree with half way here.
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« Reply #116 on: December 03, 2009, 01:43:45 AM »

To be clear, this site exists as an Orthodox Forum where people who identify themselves as Orthodox are given a place to discuss things pertinent to the Orthodox Faith.  In practicality, this means that there is a broad approach to allowing people from the Eastern Orthodox "Majority", the Eastern Orthodox "Traditionalists", and the Oriental Orthodox "Non-Chalcedonians" to post on topics relating to Orthodoxy.  It should be emphasized that it is the policy of this site that no one is required to affirm that any of the other groups are canonical or Orthodox, but rather the purpose of the broad approach is to allow broad discussion on topics that in academic discourse are labeled "Orthodox studies."

People who do not fit this broad, academic definition of Orthodox, such as Roman Catholics, Protestants, non-Christians, and others, are permitted to post here and to offer positive contributions to the site and corrections when their faith traditions are misrepresented.  They are not, however, permitted to attempt to bring people to other faiths.

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