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Author Topic: Ancestral sin and incarnation  (Read 1305 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« on: November 03, 2009, 04:58:39 PM »

Would have Logos incarnated if the ancestral sin had not been commited?

If yes - what for?
If no - did humans make God incarnate? Was God forced by us?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 04:59:15 PM by mike » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2009, 05:00:01 PM »

I don't know... perhaps this is why we sign 'O happy fault'...  Grin
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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2009, 05:03:08 PM »

Some Fathers argued that Christ would have become God-man even if we had not fallen. The reason is that man was created immature, and it was only by Christ bridging the gap between man and God that we could truly attain theosis. It is not only "God became man that man might be forgiven," but also "God became man that man might become God".
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2009, 05:47:33 PM »

Some Fathers argued that Christ would have become God-man even if we had not fallen. The reason is that man was created immature, and it was only by Christ bridging the gap between man and God that we could truly attain theosis. It is not only "God became man that man might be forgiven," but also "God became man that man might become God".

Is it not also taught within Orthodoxy that man shared in the Divine Nature by sharing in immortality? I mean to say that isn't immortality a by-product of the Divine Nature dwelling within man?
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2009, 07:49:59 PM »

Quote
Is it not also taught within Orthodoxy that man shared in the Divine Nature by sharing in immortality? I mean to say that isn't immortality a by-product of the Divine Nature dwelling within man?

I'm not sure. If I had the book collection that I had a few years ago I could probably have a better chance at finding an answer, or at least a tentative answer. But really, at this point, I don't know. Hopefully someone else can chime in with an answer.
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2009, 10:33:22 PM »

Would have Logos incarnated if the ancestral sin had not been commited?

If yes - what for?
If no - did humans make God incarnate? Was God forced by us?

Yes. Theosis.  God made Man in His image and likeness, just like an architect designs his own house.

Btw, I would say that Woman was created out of Man because God would become Man through a Woman.
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2009, 10:33:47 PM »


Would have Logos incarnated if the ancestral sin had not been commited?

If yes - what for?
If no - did humans make God incarnate? Was God forced by us?

I believe so. I don't think theosis could have been complete to the same extent without the Word becoming human. Some of the accomplishments of the Incarnation do not even appear to be inherently connected to salvation from sin. For instance, the Ascension.
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2009, 10:35:27 PM »


Would have Logos incarnated if the ancestral sin had not been commited?

If yes - what for?
If no - did humans make God incarnate? Was God forced by us?

It is interesting to note that this was a hotly debated subject in the Roman church in the late medieval ages, with Thomas Aquinas teaching that the Incarnation is simply about salvation from sin and that thus it wouldn't have happened if Adam and Eve had not fallen, but Duns Scotus teaching essentially the view I was talking about in my last post.
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2009, 10:37:58 PM »

Some Fathers argued that Christ would have become God-man even if we had not fallen. The reason is that man was created immature, and it was only by Christ bridging the gap between man and God that we could truly attain theosis. It is not only "God became man that man might be forgiven," but also "God became man that man might become God".

Is it not also taught within Orthodoxy that man shared in the Divine Nature by sharing in immortality? I mean to say that isn't immortality a by-product of the Divine Nature dwelling within man?

It is generally taught that Man is naturally subject to death but His state is made to be immortality by the sanctifying grace given by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2009, 08:29:51 AM »

Thank you for your answers.
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2009, 09:35:02 PM »

Would have Logos incarnated if the ancestral sin had not been commited?

If yes - what for?
If no - did humans make God incarnate? Was God forced by us?

maybe.

It has been said by some that humans before the fall were not able to attain the type of relationship with God that those after the incarnation are able to. That is, by the incarnation, we are able to be more like God and closer to Him than ever before possible because He has become like us. (I believe this refers much to our state after death). Perhaps Christ wouldn't have come to die if the original sin was never commited, maybe he would have come just to live among us for a period of time.  This is all speculation of course.

Humans did not make God incarnate.  He chose to help us; he didn't have to.
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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2009, 11:28:36 PM »

Btw, I would say that Woman was created out of Man because God would become Man through a Woman.

Thank you for sharing this thought!
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2009, 05:54:26 AM »


Perhaps Christ wouldn't have come to die if the original sin was never commited,

I don't see any purpose that Christ dying would have served if sin had not come into the world.
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2009, 05:56:36 AM »

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I don't see any purpose that Christ dying would have served if sin had not come into the world.

Keep looking Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2009, 04:02:01 PM »

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I don't see any purpose that Christ dying would have served if sin had not come into the world.

Keep looking Smiley

Do you see a reason for Christ dying in such a scenario, Asteriktos?
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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2011, 11:27:11 AM »

Would have Logos incarnated if the ancestral sin had not been committed?
If yes - what for?
I would advise to read chapter 4(God as Man) of ‘The Orthodox Way’ by bishop Kallistos Ware. The answer to this question is on page 70-71. It’s good to read this book completely, I like it this book very much.
http://books.google.nl/books?id=HG8c-lUZIDEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=orthodox+way+kallistos+ware&source=bl&ots=pqqGo1Ja1U&sig=yiXKMyQ5ihO0Dw0MDIKcY8WGVXs&hl=nl&ei=9UOTTYeQI8yZOvSzrIkB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=incarnation&f=false
If no - did humans make God incarnate? Was God forced by us?
This is what I would like to share with you, I made this text in my attempt to explane the wonder of Incarnation to moslims, when we conversed about it. I welkom every comment or feedback concerning this text.

Why do we need incarnate God, in the person of Jesus Christ?

1.   Out of His love God the Almighty has created the whole world with all that is in it. He has made the sun, the moon and the stars to shine upon the face of the earth. He made living creatures, the plants and the animals, that they may praise Him, as the Psalmist says. At the end He created also a man to be the head and the crown of His creation. He placed him in the most beautiful garden called Eden. Our first ancestors, Adam and Eve, had been living a gracious and blissful life.
2.   Nonetheless in order to let them prove their faithfulness, God commanded them not to eat the fruit from a certain tree called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Alas, being deluded by devil the men transgressed the command given them by God. So it came to pass what the Lord has spoken: for in the day that you eat of it you shall die. The men were expelled from the paradise to lead a hard life outside of it, before they die and return to the dust where out they were taken.
3.   In this world after the primordial sin nobody were able to redeem the children of Adam from this desperate state, not a righteous person, not an angel, nobody except God alone. Nobody could bring the men back to the paradise, because curse fell upon all the descendants of Adam.
4.   Because by the sin of the first men curse fell upon all their descendants, in the same manner there was a need in a Man who could restore the fault of the first man, and, contrary to Adam, become the firstling of those who are to be saved. It is logical that this Man, second Adam, must be without any sin, completely loyal to the will of God. But there was nobody who could be free from the curse of the primordial sin. Even the most righteous persons were in need of salvation from this anxious state.
5.   Nothing and nobody could redeem humanity if God had not redeemed it. So the All merciful God took pity on us. God the Son, the only begotten Son of God the Father, equal and coeternal with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, took our human nature in order that we might become sons and daughters of God by His grace. Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word of the Father, took our sins and our curse upon Himself (as a Man, sinless Man), being nailed on the cross that we may become partakers of His everlasting and blessed life,’kingdom of priests and holy nation’(like the Scripture says). On the third day after His death on the cross He rose up, ascended into Heaven (as a Man) to sit nigh God the Father. From there he will come again to judge the living and the departed (the general Resurrection), and His Kingdom will have no end.
6.   He established His holy Church, poured down the grace of the Holy Spirit upon its members, the apostles (and other members of the Church), who brought the Good News into many parts of the earth, baptizing many people of various nations in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Every man is thus welcom to be a partaker in the Kingdom of God.

May be this link would be useful as well.
www.orthodox.net/nativity/nativity-sjok-2.html
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2011, 12:26:39 PM »

Is it not also taught within Orthodoxy that man shared in the Divine Nature by sharing in immortality? I mean to say that isn't immortality a by-product of the Divine Nature dwelling within man?

Not the Divine Nature.  The Divine Energies.
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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2011, 03:07:41 PM »

Quote
I don't see any purpose that Christ dying would have served if sin had not come into the world.

Keep looking Smiley

Do you see a reason for Christ dying in such a scenario, Asteriktos?

I could perhaps see Christ dying for a non-fallen world as the means to grant us immortality. Either way there needs to be a means of granting us immortality as we are by nature mortal. A major difference, I think, is that I could not see Christ dying by crucifixion in a non-fallen world. More likely He would have died of old age.
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