Not sure what I'm doing...

[SoleRedemption]

I'm currently a traditional Roman Catholic (emphasis on traditional; I refuse to attend the NO and am generally frustrated with the direction the Vatican has gone since VII), currently rethinking my faith and trying to decide who the real holy, catholic, and apostolic church really is. I've currently been reading a lot of the early Church fathers lately, as well as listening to Orthodox commentary on the early church, and I'm intrigued on how Thomism and many of Augustine's teachings seem to contradict with things like the Sixth Ecumenical Council and writers such as St. John of Damascus.

My major hangups preventing conversion at this moment mainly have to do with (some of these I admit are way better reasons than others):

1. My love for western devotions, such as the Rosary and the Eucharistic Adoration
2. The fact that I've only been Catholic for about two and a half years, and that if I were to convert, I would only appear to confirm my family and friends view of me as an ideological flip-flopper (I went from Marxist to Objectivist to Catholic within a span of four years in high school), thus being detrimental to any possible conversions on their part ("why should we convert if he's probably going to change his mind in two years?")
3. Some of the knee-jerk anti-Westernism in some EO circles
4. I currently look up to my current priest as a sort of role model, since he's helped me grow in my faith more than any other single human being, and I would hate to have to leave his church
5. I will undoubtedly miss the Tridentine Mass (I'm aware about Western Orthodox parishes, but they're few and far between)

I suppose I'm just wondering if there's anyone here who can either dispell some of these worries or at the very least relate to any of these concerns in any way.

[Entscheidungsproblem]

I see you are part of the RC Diocese of Spokane.  Are you near this WRO parish?  http://www.spokaneorthodox.com/

[SoleRedemption]

I see you are part of the RC Diocese of Spokane.  Are you near this WRO parish?  http://www.spokaneorthodox.com/

Yep! I'm considering checking that place out tomorrow for Matins. I'm currently up at Whitworth University.

Sadly, there's no WO parish anywhere near me back home in the San Francisco Bay Area.

[katherineofdixie]

Have you attended any Orthodox services?

I was never RC so can't speak to your specific concerns, but I can tell you as a former Lutheran that there's nothing I miss (okay, except for singing A Mighty Fortress, the Lutheran fight song!) - now that I have found the fullness of the Faith.

Also I've never encountered much kneejerk anti-Westernism. Perhaps frustration at not being taken seriously?

[Schultz]

Indeed, on the parish level, you won't find nearly as much anti-Westernism as you do online. 

Orthodoxy, Eastern or Western, simply must be experienced personally in a parish setting.  You can't know it unless you live it.

As for your attachment to the Rosary, I know a number of EO who continue their devotions with the blessing of their respective priests. 

[Alveus Lacuna]

Welcome to the forum!  It's great to have you here!

May God guide your steps and show you His Way.

I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Church simultaneously.  I can't totally relate to your situation, but I do understand your worry about being an ideological 'flip-flopper.'  All of your concerns make perfect sense and all of them are completely justified and reasonable.

Be sure to spend a lot of time considering this; there is no rush.  Take your time and weigh all of your options.  My reasons for coming into Orthodoxy are more practical than anything.  Orthodoxy has reinvigorated my Christian faith in a way I didn't know was possible, and I don't wish to 'bite the hand that feeds me' and abandon it for anything else.  The pull has been strong within me to rejoin the Roman Catholic Church (I was never confirmed; only baptized and communed) as that is part of my family and history, and it has all of the apostolic ties and the historical continuity I need from my church.  For me there would be something wonderful about returned back where I started as an infant; a sort of completing of the circle or something.

But ultimately I feel that God has led me to Orthodoxy and has plans for me in the Orthodox Church, and I cannot abandon this place that God has put me in.

Lord, have mercy on your servant SoleRedemption and make his path clear to him.  Amen.

[SoleRedemption]

Have you attended any Orthodox services?

I was never RC so can't speak to your specific concerns, but I can tell you as a former Lutheran that there's nothing I miss (okay, except for singing A Mighty Fortress, the Lutheran fight song!) - now that I have found the fullness of the Faith.

Also I've never encountered much kneejerk anti-Westernism. Perhaps frustration at not being taken seriously?

I have attended two Divine Liturgies, one in the OCA which was very traditional (a majority of the liturgy was in Old Slavonic, which I'm told is not typical for an OCA service), and one Greek Orthodox one which was 95% English. I've attended Vespers as well a few times in the former church. Don't get me wrong, I love the DL of St. John Chrysostom just as much as the traditional Mass/DL of St. Gregory.

[Entscheidungsproblem]

Yep! I'm considering checking that place out tomorrow for Matins. I'm currently up at Whitworth University.

Sadly, there's no WO parish anywhere near me back home in the San Francisco Bay Area.

If you do attend, I hope you enjoy yourself!

About anti-Westernism, it depends really.  Sometimes it is palpable in the very air, other times you will experience absolute none.  I'm a former Catechumen (before that Roman Catholic), and the worst experience I had were actually not anti-Westernism, but rather anti-RCism by certain Protestant converts.  A Western-rite Monastery I attended was mostly former RCs and former Anglicans, so it was never an issue, but certain OCA parishes had a large charismatic and fundamentalist convert base where I had some interesting experiences...  For the most part though, things should be fine.  Finding a strong, spiritual home (parish) will be the key to the best Orthodox experience for you.

[Heorhij]

Orthodoxy, Eastern or Western, simply must be experienced personally in a parish setting.  You can't know it unless you live it.

I agree very strongly.

[witega]

2. The fact that I've only been Catholic for about two and a half years, and that if I were to convert, I would only appear to confirm my family and friends view of me as an ideological flip-flopper (I went from Marxist to Objectivist to Catholic within a span of four years in high school), thus being detrimental to any possible conversions on their part ("why should we convert if he's probably going to change his mind in two years?")

And how much influence do you think you'll have if you are not fully committed to the faith you are living?
Until you are certain you are on the right path, it does no good to worry about how your process of finding the right path is going to affect others.
"Attain the Spirit of Peace, and thousands around you will be saved" - St. Seraphim of Sarov


It is not how you get to the Church but what you do once you are there which will determine the influence you have. So they think "Why should we convert if he's probably going to change his mind in two years?" In 3 years, they won't be able to think that anymore.

[Justin Kissel]

The fact that I've only been Catholic for about two and a half years, and that if I were to convert, I would only appear to confirm my family and friends view of me as an ideological flip-flopper

Well, as an admitted ideological flip-flopper over the past 12 years, let me just say... I think you owe it to yourself to follow the truth wherever you think it leads. Being a truth-seeker is inevitably going to require that you admit that you were wrong, and probably drastically wrong, at least a few times in life. I don't see how spreading that out over three decades is any better than spreading it out over three years. In fact, I can only see negatives in prolonging things. Even if you were to hold off for years and years before switching, your family could still just describe your previous religious affiliation as a "phase".

[SoleRedemption]

The fact that I've only been Catholic for about two and a half years, and that if I were to convert, I would only appear to confirm my family and friends view of me as an ideological flip-flopper

Well, as an admitted ideological flip-flopper over the past 12 years, let me just say... I think you owe it to yourself to follow the truth wherever you think it leads. Being a truth-seeker is inevitably going to require that you admit that you were wrong, and probably drastically wrong, at least a few times in life. I don't see how spreading that out over three decades is any better than spreading it out over three years. In fact, I can only see negatives in prolonging things. Even if you were to hold off for years and years before switching, your family could still just describe your previous religious affiliation as a "phase".

This is true. I should remember moreover that my switch from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy won't be as radical as, say, my switch from Marxism to Randian Objectivism (both ideologies of which I now reject with equal fervor), so any reaction from others, after I explain how alike the RC and EO churches are, will probably be minimal.

To answer others, I am most definitely going about this with massive amounts of prayer and research. I will probably schedule a meeting soon with either (or maybe both) the local Greek Orthodox or Western Orthodox priest in order to give my story and get some wisdom from them. I'll probably do the same with my current priest (I won't mention that I'm considering switching churches, but rather, I intend to ask him about the points of conflict I find in Catholic teaching, specifically the hierarchy of the early Church and the apparent inconsistencies of Augustinian and Thomist philosophy with Church tradition).

[Shlomlokh]

I'm currently a traditional Roman Catholic (emphasis on traditional; I refuse to attend the NO and am generally frustrated with the direction the Vatican has gone since VII), currently rethinking my faith and trying to decide who the real holy, catholic, and apostolic church really is. I've currently been reading a lot of the early Church fathers lately, as well as listening to Orthodox commentary on the early church, and I'm intrigued on how Thomism and many of Augustine's teachings seem to contradict with things like the Sixth Ecumenical Council and writers such as St. John of Damascus.

My major hangups preventing conversion at this moment mainly have to do with (some of these I admit are way better reasons than others):

1. My love for western devotions, such as the Rosary and the Eucharistic Adoration
2. The fact that I've only been Catholic for about two and a half years, and that if I were to convert, I would only appear to confirm my family and friends view of me as an ideological flip-flopper (I went from Marxist to Objectivist to Catholic within a span of four years in high school), thus being detrimental to any possible conversions on their part ("why should we convert if he's probably going to change his mind in two years?")
3. Some of the knee-jerk anti-Westernism in some EO circles
4. I currently look up to my current priest as a sort of role model, since he's helped me grow in my faith more than any other single human being, and I would hate to have to leave his church
5. I will undoubtedly miss the Tridentine Mass (I'm aware about Western Orthodox parishes, but they're few and far between)

I suppose I'm just wondering if there's anyone here who can either dispell some of these worries or at the very least relate to any of these concerns in any way.

I can completely relate to you. I was raised Protestant, became Catholic and after a year and a half was tired of the Post V-II Catholicism. I saw the direction the Roman Church was headed and would not partake any longer. It was around this time last year that I started reading the history of the early Church in more depth and saw that the Pope did NOT have supreme jurisdiction and no one viewed any one bishop as infallible. And there were other things, too.

My parents and friends asked me about my decision and I told them that I found the fulfillment of Catholicism in Orthodoxy. I believe God led me to the RCC first to prepare me for Orthodoxy.

I don't know what to recommend regarding your priest. Mine was a Maronite priest and he was very understanding. He may end up Orthodox in a few years (I pray he does). I told him my situation and he gave me some advice. He told me to pray and read and pray some more. He and I both did not want me to make an impulsive decision. My former priest was sad that I was leaving, but understood the reasons why I wanted to become Orthodox.

For the devotions, I do not think there is anything wrong in praying the Rosary in the Orthodox Church, just not done publicly.  Regarding Eucharistic Adoration, you can come early before Divine Liturgy or any of the other divine services and pray. Christ is still in tabernacle on the altar. We believe that we should not separate the Eucharist from the liturgy.

Again, pray and read and pray some more. It would not hurt to contact an Orthodox priest and ask him to help you with any questions you have. If you ever want to talk, feel free to PM me.

In Christ,
Andrew

[Hamartolos]

I as well totally get where you are coming from.  Before becoming Orthodox, the struggles of being an (almost, very close to) seminarian and loving the former traditions of the Roman Catholic Church where difficult to deal with.  I can recall being concerned about giving up the Latin traditions that I loved so much and had very fond memories of.  As others here have said, you can still bring some of that with you for your own private devotions.  However, you will certainly find many more riches within Orthodoxy.  I look forward to hearing from you and knowing where the Lord takes you! 

BTW, WELCOME!

[Clancy Boy]

2. The fact that I've only been Catholic for about two and a half years, and that if I were to convert, I would only appear to confirm my family and friends view of me as an ideological flip-flopper (I went from Marxist to Objectivist to Catholic within a span of four years in high school), thus being detrimental to any possible conversions on their part ("why should we convert if he's probably going to change his mind in two years?") 

I prefer "truth-seeker."  If one hasn't changed his mind several times in his life I doubt he's really thinking.

Good to see another former Marxist.

[Sakeneko]

SoleRedemption, have you ever been to a traditional Russian Orthodox service, preferably one in Slavonic?  With your love for the Tridentine Mass, I bet you would love that type of service, even if it isn't what you want most of the time. :-)  They do a very fine traditional Russian service at Holy Virgin Cathedral on Geary Street in San Francisco (in ROCOR), or if you prefer a smaller church, at St. John the Baptist Russian Orthodox Church in Berkeley (in the OCA) or Protection of the Holy Virgin Orthodox Church in Palo Alto (also ROCOR). 

I'm not trying to convert you to eastern rites; western rites can be every bit as Orthodox and are beautiful too.  (I love traditional Roman Catholic masses myself.)  But this would at least let you get some more experience in something I think you'll also love.

[SoleRedemption]

SoleRedemption, have you ever been to a traditional Russian Orthodox service, preferably one in Slavonic?  With your love for the Tridentine Mass, I bet you would love that type of service, even if it isn't what you want most of the time. :-)  They do a very fine traditional Russian service at Holy Virgin Cathedral on Geary Street in San Francisco (in ROCOR), or if you prefer a smaller church, at St. John the Baptist Russian Orthodox Church in Berkeley (in the OCA) or Protection of the Holy Virgin Orthodox Church in Palo Alto (also ROCOR). 

I'm not trying to convert you to eastern rites; western rites can be every bit as Orthodox and are beautiful too.  (I love traditional Roman Catholic masses myself.)  But this would at least let you get some more experience in something I think you'll also love.

Much appreciated!

 Like I mentioned earlier, the OCA service I went to was 70% Old Slavonic (or so a news article I found on the church claimed; the service is already partially in modern Russian, so I couldn't tell the difference a majority of the time). I will definitely be checking out those other churches (especially Holy Virgin Cathedral, which I've tried to stop by and look around at but it turns out it isn't open between services) when I come home for vacation, though. That being said, I've yet to find a DL that I didn't like.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Well, please keep us updated with your progress in exploring Orthodoxy.  Remember that these fora are an OK place to ask questions and seek prayer, but the only thing that's really going to help you is getting involved somewhere.  The most practical reason I like this forum is that it keeps me from asking my priest about 1,000 annoying questions.  I can usually just throw out something on here and at least partially satisfy my curiosity.

[Agia Marina]

I see you are part of the RC Diocese of Spokane.  Are you near this WRO parish?  http://www.spokaneorthodox.com/

Yep! I'm considering checking that place out tomorrow for Matins. I'm currently up at Whitworth University.

Sadly, there's no WO parish anywhere near me back home in the San Francisco Bay Area.

I haven't read the entire thread, so I don't know if St. Stephen's Antiochian Orthodox Church has been recommended to you.  I'm fairly sure it's not Western Rite, but it's located in Campbell; it's services are entirely in English; and it's a convert parish.  They may not answer all your questions, but they converted from a Protestant church, so I don't think they are entirely anti-Western.    http://www.protomartyr.org/who.html

[SoleRedemption]

Well, I visited a the local Greek Orthodox parish today (gonna check out the Western Orthodox one next Sunday, probably). The priest was super-friendly (he's a convert himself, so he could relate a lot to what I was looking for), as was a lot of the laity, and the service was, as expected, uplifting.

My only beef with it was the inclusion of female readers, the lack of discipline with some of the children in the church, and the general lack of quietness on the part of some throughout the parish, including during the consecration of the body and blood. I understand though that my regular attendance at rad-trad Catholic churches may have caused me to develop a hypersensitivity to anything out of place. I also did not experience any of these problems at the OCA church I visited back home, so I know the situation there isn't universal.

[Thomas]

Sole Redemption

Welcome to the Convert Issues Forum.  Our object is to give simple responses to your questions with resources that you may read to gain further insight into your questions. In the case of the issue that you have stated, several people on the forum have given the best response, i.e. contact your local Orthodox Priest to discuss this matter. Which you have done.  Discuss with the Priest your concerns about irreverance and noise, I know my priest mentions this when he has a sermon as an example of the impact that we make upon those who come to the Liturgy but are not yet Orthodox, it has an impact on our congregation.

Again welcome to the Convert Issue Forum.

Thomas

[katherineofdixie]

My parents and friends asked me about my decision and I told them that I found the fulfillment of Catholicism in Orthodoxy.

I gave a similar answer when I converted. I used the analogy that it was as if I had grown up listening to Bach (you know how Lutherans love Bach!) only on a cassette tape, and then (with Orthodoxy) had the experience of hearing Bach played by a world-class symphony orchestra in a concert hall with perfect acoustics.

[ialmisry]

Well, I visited a the local Greek Orthodox parish today (gonna check out the Western Orthodox one next Sunday, probably). The priest was super-friendly (he's a convert himself, so he could relate a lot to what I was looking for), as was a lot of the laity, and the service was, as expected, uplifting.

My only beef with it was the inclusion of female readers, the lack of discipline with some of the children in the church, and the general lack of quietness on the part of some throughout the parish, including during the consecration of the body and blood. I understand though that my regular attendance at rad-trad Catholic churches may have caused me to develop a hypersensitivity to anything out of place. I also did not experience any of these problems at the OCA church I visited back home, so I know the situation there isn't universal.

Was it in Greek?  As with the Latin Mass, the congregation ends up doing something else if the celebration is in a language they don't speak. And then, even after a switch, old habits built up die hard.

I was in the Greek Church once by my mother.  I was the only one not a memeber of a family in the pew I was in, in the back (my preferred place.  I go to the front now only for my sons sake, to see, show and explain what's going on).  There was a toddler that was rather rambungcious, and after the DL, a man came up to me, introduced himself as the godfather and apologized for his godson, explaining that it was the anniversary of his baptism, and they always come together as a family with him to celebrate it at DL.  I said "no problem:I've been to too many Churches where everyone is older than God, (and you know that in 10 years, the Church won't be here) to notice and worry."  Matthew 21:16.

[Fr. George]

Well, I visited a the local Greek Orthodox parish today (gonna check out the Western Orthodox one next Sunday, probably). The priest was super-friendly (he's a convert himself, so he could relate a lot to what I was looking for), as was a lot of the laity, and the service was, as expected, uplifting.

My only beef with it was the inclusion of female readers, the lack of discipline with some of the children in the church, and the general lack of quietness on the part of some throughout the parish, including during the consecration of the body and blood. I understand though that my regular attendance at rad-trad Catholic churches may have caused me to develop a hypersensitivity to anything out of place. I also did not experience any of these problems at the OCA church I visited back home, so I know the situation there isn't universal. 

Was it in Greek?  As with the Latin Mass, the congregation ends up doing something else if the celebration is in a language they don't speak. And then, even after a switch, old habits built up die hard.

IIRC, the Spokane parish uses mostly English.

[SoleRedemption]

Well, I visited a the local Greek Orthodox parish today (gonna check out the Western Orthodox one next Sunday, probably). The priest was super-friendly (he's a convert himself, so he could relate a lot to what I was looking for), as was a lot of the laity, and the service was, as expected, uplifting.

My only beef with it was the inclusion of female readers, the lack of discipline with some of the children in the church, and the general lack of quietness on the part of some throughout the parish, including during the consecration of the body and blood. I understand though that my regular attendance at rad-trad Catholic churches may have caused me to develop a hypersensitivity to anything out of place. I also did not experience any of these problems at the OCA church I visited back home, so I know the situation there isn't universal. 

Was it in Greek?  As with the Latin Mass, the congregation ends up doing something else if the celebration is in a language they don't speak. And then, even after a switch, old habits built up die hard.

IIRC, the Spokane parish uses mostly English.

Yep, it does. Most of the people there, from what I heard, are at least 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants, or converts. Its strange too, since Spokane is full of Ruskies and yet the church seemed only half-full and its one of only three Orthodox churches in the Spokane area (the other two being the aformentioned WRO church and an Antiochian Church over in Spokane Valley which to my knowledge is mostly converts, too).

Thanks for your advice, everyone. As undecided as I still am, every little bit is helping.

[Fr. George]

Thanks for your advice, everyone. As undecided as I still am, every little bit is helping. 

I pray the Lord guides you to all that is needed for your salvation, whatever it may be.

[NorthernPines]

Indeed, on the parish level, you won't find nearly as much anti-Westernism as you do online. 

That's not been my experience. I've encountered quite a bit of ant-Westernism on the parish level, in many different parishes. (albeit never in an OCA parish though, so that might explain why you've not experienced it) All the Churches in my area range from "fairly ethnic/eastern" with converts expected to become ethnic/eastern cheerleaders to "super ethnic/eastern"....Granted it's much better NOW than it was say 25 years ago, when local Churches and priests flat out told people (even a few that were in fact Orthodox) "you're not (fill in ethnicity) you're not welcomed here"...but it still exists, at least the sentiment does among "some" even if it's not expressed openly anymore.  And I'm hardly in a part of the Country with massive amounts of immigration or anything, I'm in Scandinavian country, where most ethnic Orthodox are fairly "Americanized" (whatever that means)....and it exists HERE, so it's not like I'm in Chicago's Greek town or anything where I'm sure it "can" be much, much worse.  in the end, it will simply vary from parish to parish. And some parishes will be a "fit" and some simply won't. Being from San Fran, though....where I believe there are  a LOT of choices, anti Westernism shouldn't be a major problem though.

[NorthernPines]

My only beef with it was the inclusion of female readers,

Well, you know the ancient Church had female deacons, so hopefully this won't be too much of a stumbling block for you.

the lack of discipline with some of the children in the church, and the general lack of quietness on the part of some throughout the parish, including during the consecration of the body and blood.

LOL! Well, the children issue....yeah. Sorry to say that's just "the Orthodox Way"..... For some people, it is REALLY hard to handle...and I definitely sympathize. if a parish has a crying room, it helps a lot, unfortunately I've only been to one parish that actually had one.....screaming kids, kids eating in Church, coloring pictures on the pews (loudly) and other such things can be distracting, but it's kind of the norm in parishes with young families. A friend of mine has a really hard time dealing with it.  All I can suggest is try sitting up front (not in the back)...I know newbies don't like to do this because they don't know when to stand or sit....but being Catholic you'll probably already have a good grasp of that type of etiquette.
 
In the end a lot of these things you'll adjust to...at least the kids are in Church, and not somewhere else. Like you said too, not all parishes have this issue, but it is quite common in my experience anyways. Good luck on your journey.....
 

[SoleRedemption]

I visited the Western Rite Church today.

Overall, it was an exceedingly lovely service. The hymns were uplifting and quaint, and the congregation one of the friendliest and most outgoing I've ever encountered. By the attention I got after Mass, my guess is they don't get a whole lot of inquirers, let alone new converts (or maybe they're just that friendly, who knows).

No real complaints about the place except for maybe the depressingly small size (I counted about two families with children there, and the rest were grayheaded couples and individuals with a handful of exceptions). If I do get charismated in the faith (which I'm about 90% sure I'm going to do at this point), it will definitely be there.

[mike]

Glory to God!

[Fr. George]

I visited the Western Rite Church today.

Overall, it was an exceedingly lovely service. The hymns were uplifting and quaint, and the congregation one of the friendliest and most outgoing I've ever encountered. By the attention I got after Mass, my guess is they don't get a whole lot of inquirers, let alone new converts (or maybe they're just that friendly, who knows).

No real complaints about the place except for maybe the depressingly small size (I counted about two families with children there, and the rest were grayheaded couples and individuals with a handful of exceptions). If I do get charismated in the faith (which I'm about 90% sure I'm going to do at this point), it will definitely be there.

Glory to God!

[ialmisry]

I visited the Western Rite Church today.

Overall, it was an exceedingly lovely service. The hymns were uplifting and quaint, and the congregation one of the friendliest and most outgoing I've ever encountered. By the attention I got after Mass, my guess is they don't get a whole lot of inquirers, let alone new converts (or maybe they're just that friendly, who knows).

No real complaints about the place except for maybe the depressingly small size (I counted about two families with children there, and the rest were grayheaded couples and individuals with a handful of exceptions). If I do get charismated in the faith (which I'm about 90% sure I'm going to do at this point), it will definitely be there.

Gloria Deo!

I go when I get the chance to the WRO, for moral support of it.

If you are chrismated, think that you have the opportunity to be a pioneer like St. Herman, except unlike him, you don't have to start with nothing. Our Lord started with only 11 good apples.

[Alveus Lacuna]

I would love to see the Western Rite Orthodox produce a saint in our modern times.  I think it would really give the cause a boost if it's meant to happen.

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