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Author Topic: Most Distant Object Yet Detected Carries Clues from Early Universe  (Read 2610 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: October 28, 2009, 06:00:28 PM »

Most Distant Object Yet Detected Carries Clues from Early Universe

A violent explosion picked up by a NASA satellite earlier this year is the oldest object ever seen by astronomers, its light having been emitted some 13 billion years ago. At that time the universe was roughly 5 percent of its present age and the big bang was a fairly recent occurrence, having taken place just 600 million years earlier...
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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 06:17:22 PM »

Wow.

How marvelous are your works, O Lord, in wisdom have you wrought them all!
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2009, 06:40:59 PM »

Absolutely amazing!
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« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2009, 12:28:45 PM »

The universe is so beautiful... Its as if the angles move the heavenly bodies.   Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2009, 02:02:58 PM »

No kidding.  When I was first studying physics in college almost thirty years ago, I fell in love with it and its subsidiary subject astronomy.  When you take the trouble to look at how the universe is structured and the way things work, at any level of detail (particle physics on one end of that spectrum, astronomical objects like galaxy clusters or even larger on the other), it's genuinely awe-inspiring.  I accept that not everybody sees this as evidence for God's existence, but for those of us who do believe it fits right in with the idea of God as the Creator.
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 06:49:53 PM »

No kidding.  When I was first studying physics in college almost thirty years ago, I fell in love with it and its subsidiary subject astronomy.  When you take the trouble to look at how the universe is structured and the way things work, at any level of detail (particle physics on one end of that spectrum, astronomical objects like galaxy clusters or even larger on the other), it's genuinely awe-inspiring.  I accept that not everybody sees this as evidence for God's existence, but for those of us who do believe it fits right in with the idea of God as the Creator.
Sorry for a small off-top… Your post has reminded me...

I did not seriously study  the astronomy, but when I began study biological sciences at a university, I clear realized, that the world had been created.
We more or less know how living organisms work. But how they have appeared?..
Tremendous reasonability of life does not enable to doubt about Creation.
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 07:55:53 PM »

Welcome to the forum, Aspartam Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2009, 08:56:35 PM »

I echo Fr. George's sentiments.  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2009, 09:16:47 PM »

<nod>  Biology is as intricate, patterned, and unlikely (in my opinion) to be an accidental thing as the universe itself.  I know more physics than I do biology, but I've done my share of the latter.  It's fascinating.

Most creationists would be very annoyed at me for having no trouble believing that the theory of evolution is largely correct.  Most atheists (of the militant sort, anyway) would be very annoyed at me for being aware (and pointing out publicly) that evolution has nothing whatsoever to say about either the creation of the universe or the origin of sentience (intelligence + emotional capacity).  Neither does physics.  This isn't a flaw in either field of study; it's simply a fact.  The scientific method and all of the sciences are epistemological, meaning that they are based on observation.  There are things we human beings have not observed and cannot, even in theory, observe, and about those things science can say nothing. 

The ultimate creation of the Universe is definitely one of those things.  I would also put the source of sentience (intelligence + emotional capacity) in that category.  And the soul, of course, but no science has any way of identifying that, let alone determining Who made it.
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2009, 09:34:29 PM »

No kidding.  When I was first studying physics in college almost thirty years ago, I fell in love with it and its subsidiary subject astronomy.  When you take the trouble to look at how the universe is structured and the way things work, at any level of detail (particle physics on one end of that spectrum, astronomical objects like galaxy clusters or even larger on the other), it's genuinely awe-inspiring.  I accept that not everybody sees this as evidence for God's existence, but for those of us who do believe it fits right in with the idea of God as the Creator.

Those who don't believe in the Creator, do so because they see any hint of design as an illusion, and so they must explain "all" things in a purely materialist/naturalistic manor.

You can see this in the debate Wilberforce had with what's his name in the late 19th century.

If you made a watch, the naturalist would have to explain the existence of your creation by pure chance, and time.

So the issue is really nothing more than having an alternative "explaination" for something......even if it's not true. For truth doesn't matter, what matters is......is your "alternative" explaination reasonable.....conceivable or believable.

That's what it really comes down to. But they won't allow us to give a rejoinder to their rejoinder........and so........the atheistic/extreme secular world we live in today.











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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2009, 09:45:03 PM »

No kidding.  When I was first studying physics in college almost thirty years ago, I fell in love with it and its subsidiary subject astronomy.  When you take the trouble to look at how the universe is structured and the way things work, at any level of detail (particle physics on one end of that spectrum, astronomical objects like galaxy clusters or even larger on the other), it's genuinely awe-inspiring.  I accept that not everybody sees this as evidence for God's existence, but for those of us who do believe it fits right in with the idea of God as the Creator.
Sorry for a small off-top… Your post has reminded me...

I did not seriously study  the astronomy, but when I began study biological sciences at a university, I clear realized, that the world had been created.
We more or less know how living organisms work. But how they have appeared?..
Tremendous reasonability of life does not enable to doubt about Creation.



That's because we(the western atheistic/secular world) brainwash ourselves to not see what we are seeing, and to not believe what our gut is telling us.

We brainwash ourselves to only see chaos, and design as an illusion.......meanwhile high powered radio antennas are looking for signs of "intelligent" life, yet those very same principles are outlawed when it comes to this issue.

For when it comes to this issue, we have to brainwash ourselves to not see clearly what we are seeing.









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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2009, 09:45:03 PM »

Quote
Most atheists (of the militant sort, anyway) would be very annoyed at me for being aware (and pointing out publicly) that evolution has nothing whatsoever to say about either the creation of the universe

Why would they be annoyed at you for pointing out the obvious: that the theory of evolution has nothing to say about the beginning of the universe? The theory of evolution doesn't even attempt to explain how life began here on earth.
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2009, 09:54:51 PM »

Quote
Most atheists (of the militant sort, anyway) would be very annoyed at me for being aware (and pointing out publicly) that evolution has nothing whatsoever to say about either the creation of the universe

Why would they be annoyed at you for pointing out the obvious: that the theory of evolution has nothing to say about the beginning of the universe? The theory of evolution doesn't even attempt to explain how life began here on earth.

The idea of "slow" change over time is used in cosmology, infact, it was first used in Geology, long before it was used in Biology.

The idea of "slow"/evolution change permeates modern science.........it's all over the place, in alot of different fields.....including politics.


To be honest, I believe in "fast"/revolution change........thus, I'm a catastrophist.








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« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 02:59:47 PM »

Quote
Most atheists (of the militant sort, anyway) would be very annoyed at me for being aware (and pointing out publicly) that evolution has nothing whatsoever to say about either the creation of the universe

Why would they be annoyed at you for pointing out the obvious: that the theory of evolution has nothing to say about the beginning of the universe? The theory of evolution doesn't even attempt to explain how life began here on earth.

The idea of "slow" change over time is used in cosmology, infact, it was first used in Geology, long before it was used in Biology.

The idea of "slow"/evolution change permeates modern science.........it's all over the place, in alot of different fields.....including politics.


To be honest, I believe in "fast"/revolution change........thus, I'm a catastrophist.








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We know the speed of light to be about 186,000 miles per second.

We know that cosmic distances are so great that the light of many stars must travel sometimes up to thousands or millions of years, even at a speed that Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity tells us is the universe's absolute speed limit, just to reach us.

We know the specific light signatures of hydrogen and helium, the two elements most prevalent in stars.

We are aware of the phenomenon of red shift and how to use this to see how far away another cosmic light-emitting object is from us.

What catastrophe happened 7000 years ago to create a gamma ray burst that appears to be so far away that it would take 13 billion years for its light to reach us?
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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 03:49:53 PM »

I'm curious, has anyone calculated how long it takes an average thread posted on a scientific discovery to degrade to yet another evolution vs. creationism debate? So many great ways this thread could have developed, discussions of astrophysics, of the nature of light, of relativity, of modern telescopes and related technology...but nope, we get evolution vs. creation debate number 2301.
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« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2009, 03:56:53 PM »

Something I do find truly fascinating is that we actually have no idea what the majority of the universe looks like right now.  Instead, we're looking now at the equivalent of space cave-drawings and, instead, left to wonder what things look like at the present moment (something we wouldn't be capable of doing, at our present level of sophistication, for another few billion years).
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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 04:13:03 PM »

Something I do find truly fascinating is that we actually have no idea what the majority of the universe looks like right now.  Instead, we're looking now at the equivalent of space cave-drawings and, instead, left to wonder what things look like at the present moment (something we wouldn't be capable of doing, at our present level of sophistication, for another few billion years).

And to add to that, no time or very very little time has actually passed for those photons traveling mostly at the speed of light (in fact the ones that made it here probably moved at the speed of light the entire time) through space for what seems from our perspective to be 13 billion years, they're still in the original state they were in immediately after the explosion. 13 billion years passed literally instantaneously and they moved 13 billion light-years, until slowed down by the telescope that observed them. Physics can be a truly fascinating subject.
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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 04:15:30 PM »

Something I do find truly fascinating is that we actually have no idea what the majority of the universe looks like right now.  Instead, we're looking now at the equivalent of space cave-drawings and, instead, left to wonder what things look like at the present moment (something we wouldn't be capable of doing, at our present level of sophistication, for another few billion years).

And to add to that, no time or very very little time has actually passed for those photons traveling mostly at the speed of light (in fact the ones that made it here probably moved at the speed of light the entire time) through space for what seems from our perspective to be 13 billion years, they're still in the original state they were in immediately after the explosion. 13 billion years passed literally instantaneously and they moved 13 billion light-years, until slowed down by the telescope that observed them. Physics can be a truly fascinating subject.

Absolutely.  Of course, I don't know if I'd have it any other way - for all we know, the parts of the universe that appear to us as beautiful, active, and colorful may at the present moment be nothing more than large clouds of dust with no stars or planets; or, maybe one enormous black hole... Of course, we probably wouldn't figure out it was the latter until it's too late Wink
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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2009, 05:57:56 PM »

I'm curious, has anyone calculated how long it takes an average thread posted on a scientific discovery to degrade to yet another evolution vs. creationism debate? So many great ways this thread could have developed, discussions of astrophysics, of the nature of light, of relativity, of modern telescopes and related technology...but nope, we get evolution vs. creation debate number 2301.
Technically, since we're not talking about the origins of human life but, rather, about the origins of the universe and of this gamma ray burst, we're really debating the Big Bang vs. creationism. Wink  Even so, I see your point.  Someone brings up a spectacular astronomical discovery, and some would rather use the thread as an opportunity to advance their creationist theories.  Kinda frustrating, actually.
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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2009, 06:27:01 PM »

I'm curious, has anyone calculated how long it takes an average thread posted on a scientific discovery to degrade to yet another evolution vs. creationism debate? So many great ways this thread could have developed, discussions of astrophysics, of the nature of light, of relativity, of modern telescopes and related technology...but nope, we get evolution vs. creation debate number 2301.
Technically, since we're not talking about the origins of human life but, rather, about the origins of the universe and of this gamma ray burst, we're really debating the Big Bang vs. creationism. Wink  Even so, I see your point.  Someone brings up a spectacular astronomical discovery, and some would rather use the thread as an opportunity to advance their creationist theories.  Kinda frustrating, actually.

I thought I saw something about cells in there, but maybe I was just seeing things. Wink It's not that there's anything wrong with the debate (well, I view it as closed, so it gets a bit tedious, but still if someone wants to discuss it...fine by me), but when we have like 8 active threads and a handful of old 'super-threads' on the issue, do we really need another?
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« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2009, 02:56:58 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Aspartam Smiley
Thanks for warm welcome. Smiley I am not sure, that I would be an active member of forum society; I am not “a man of Internet”, but there are some interesting threads on forum board; so I have dropped in.
Someone brings up a spectacular astronomical discovery, and some would rather use the thread as an opportunity to advance their creationist theories.
I am sorry, comrades. Really, I was just surfing forum. That was impulsive reflection only, no propaganda Smiley Smiley
...But I am a creationist...  Wink Grin laugh
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« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2009, 03:58:16 AM »

Someone brings up a spectacular astronomical discovery, and some would rather use the thread as an opportunity to advance their creationist theories.
I am sorry, comrades. Really, I was just surfing forum. That was impulsive reflection only, no propaganda Smiley Smiley
...But I am a creationist...  Wink Grin laugh
You mentioned your belief in creation, but it's someone else I see using this thread to preach his creationist theories. Wink
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« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2009, 10:58:26 AM »

I'm not sure how some one can discuss a beautiful event in this amazing universe on Christian forum with expecting to hear about the Creator of the universe and how such beauty is evidence for Creation.
If some one does not want to hear about God on a Christian forum then that person is in the wrong place. 
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« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2009, 11:34:15 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Aspartam Smiley
Thanks for warm welcome. Smiley I am not sure, that I would be an active member of forum society; I am not “a man of Internet”, but there are some interesting threads on forum board; so I have dropped in.
Someone brings up a spectacular astronomical discovery, and some would rather use the thread as an opportunity to advance their creationist theories.
I am sorry, comrades. Really, I was just surfing forum. That was impulsive reflection only, no propaganda Smiley Smiley
...But I am a creationist...  Wink Grin laugh

Don't worry bro, yours wasn't the offending post that caused me to respond. It's the rehashing of the same arguments currently being hashed out on about 5 different threads by another poster that caused me to roll my eyes.

A warm welcome to the forum from the resident atheist. Wink
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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2009, 11:41:16 AM »

I'm not sure how some one can discuss a beautiful event in this amazing universe on Christian forum with expecting to hear about the Creator of the universe and how such beauty is evidence for Creation.
If some one does not want to hear about God on a Christian forum then that person is in the wrong place. 

It happens in science classes all the time...yet another reason why every academic degree, even those in the Liberal Arts, should require a strong emphasis on Theoretical Mathematics, Modern Physics, and Modern Biology; whether or not someone's interested in them understanding the subjects themselves, the methodologies of Mathematics and the Sciences are an essential element of education. If you want to study history or philosophy, great, they're good subjects and ones I quite enjoy, but one should also at least be capable of intelligently discussing relativistic and quantum mechanics even if they choose not to pursue them professionally.
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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2009, 12:23:42 PM »

I'm not sure how some one can discuss a beautiful event in this amazing universe on Christian forum with expecting to hear about the Creator of the universe and how such beauty is evidence for Creation.
If some one does not want to hear about God on a Christian forum then that person is in the wrong place. 

It happens in science classes all the time...yet another reason why every academic degree, even those in the Liberal Arts, should require a strong emphasis on Theoretical Mathematics, Modern Physics, and Modern Biology; whether or not someone's interested in them understanding the subjects themselves, the methodologies of Mathematics and the Sciences are an essential element of education. If you want to study history or philosophy, great, they're good subjects and ones I quite enjoy, but one should also at least be capable of intelligently discussing relativistic and quantum mechanics even if they choose not to pursue them professionally.
I don't disagree with you. So what is your point?
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« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2009, 03:20:16 PM »

I'm not sure how some one can discuss a beautiful event in this amazing universe on Christian forum with expecting to hear about the Creator of the universe and how such beauty is evidence for Creation.
If some one does not want to hear about God on a Christian forum then that person is in the wrong place. 
If you're addressing something I said, please note that I am not complaining about us seeing in this astronomical event evidence for Creation.  I'm complaining about one person using this thread to advance his arguments for a particularly anti-scientific theory known specifically as Creationism.  There is a big difference between glorifying the Creator and preaching the pseudo-science of Creationism as something opposed to the Big Bang theory (which, IMO, actually bears witness to our Judeo-Christian belief that God created everything out of nothing).
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