OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 02, 2014, 02:54:49 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Rethinking Vatican II  (Read 3178 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
MKG
Guest
« on: October 04, 2002, 01:01:47 AM »

I recently read a book called The Documents of Vatican II, edited by Walter Abbot, S.J. In addition to the actual documents, there is commentary by leading Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant ecuemenists (Fr. Schmemann for example). This book has totally made me rethink Vatican II.

-The documents themselves reek of the progressivism of the late 1950s/early 1960s. All they needed was the imprimatur of U.Thant and the U.N., and then they would have been perfect. Pope John XXIII made (more on him in a moment) a momentously stupid decision.

-The comments by Catholics are all by progessives, throughly satisfied that they dominated the Council, and they are starting to marginalize their opponents.

-Despite the fact that many of the Council's proponents tried to push for a new idea of the Papacy, many of the directives are legalistic and reek of micro-management-why should an ECUMENICAL COUNCIL regulate the abolition of prime? What business does it have to do that?
Also, the section on the Eastern Catholic Churches has legalese like it was written at Trent -why are the regulations concerning Orthodox-Catholic marriage and Orthodox who wish to become ROMAN Catholic so darn legalistic?!

-Finally, why was a Council needed? Well, J23 thought that the Church needed to adopt to the spirit of the times-not a bright idea. Basically, I think that the few good things that came out of it definately did not need an Ecumenical Council.

My previous position was basically a "conservative" one-defending the intrinsic value of the Council, but condemming the foolish bishops who have totally misinterpreted the Council. Now, I totally disagree-while I would never join the SSPX for example (I think they are cult-like)
I can certainly see their viewpoint clearly.

Note to Moderators: I didn't know where to put this-since there isn't a "Bash the RC Church" folder, I just put it here.

Michael King
Logged
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,530


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2002, 08:46:43 AM »

Quote
The documents themselves reek of the progressivism of the late 1950s/early 1960s. All they needed was the imprimatur of U.Thant and the U.N., and then they would have been perfect. Pope John XXIII made (more on him in a moment) a momentously stupid decision.

He sure did.

Quote
why are the regulations concerning Orthodox-Catholic marriage and Orthodox who wish to become ROMAN Catholic so darn legalistic?!

OK, we get it - you want to be RC. Perhaps that is beyond the scope of this board.

Quote
Note to Moderators: I didn't know where to put this-since there isn't a "Bash the RC Church" folder, I just put it here.

There should be ONE thread only called 'Complain about RC' or something like that, leaving the rest of the board free of inappropriate digressions about western Catholicism.
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,556


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2002, 09:01:19 AM »

Quote
There should be ONE thread only called 'Complain about RC' or something like that, leaving the rest of the board free of inappropriate digressions about western Catholicism.

What I'm not exactly sure on is why there has to be a "Complain about RC" thread in the first place.  If there are specific issues to discuss, take them up.  But why just a thread to complain about one Church?  I don't see much of an interest in a "Complain about Luther" thread, so why choose only the RCC?
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,530


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2002, 09:22:11 AM »

Quote
What I'm not exactly sure on is why there has to be a "Complain about RC" thread in the first place.

Because, let's be honest, that's just about all the former byzantines.org did. It was dead a lot of the time. It didn't spring to life over icons, theosis or hesychasm. No, the hot thread was 'complaints about LA's new RC cathedral' (on which I think I posted a grand total of twice, choosing to avoid the topic). Rather than censor it, why not channel it into one place and leave the rest of orthodoxchristianity.net free really to be about Orthodox (and Oriental and Assyrian) Christianity?

It's not true in Russia, but in North America, they are 'the big church'. When the secular jerks and the fundygelicals see them, with the Eucharist and devotion to Mary and the saints, they see us too. Maybe that's not fair. Or maybe it reflects some truth, that the apostolics have more in common than what separates them and that's what's important. But it simply is.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2002, 09:44:20 AM by Serge » Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,556


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2002, 09:51:54 AM »

Because, let's be honest, that's just about all the former byznatines.org did.

I guess my concern is that that shouldn't be "just about all" we do.  Complaining about the Roman Church should not define this forum, but statements like the above, at least in my opinion, come close to doing just that.  

How can we better conform to our stated purpose?  How can we better promote discussion of Orthodox Christianity?  Maybe people won't become fanatical soccer hooligans over iconography, but how can we promote discussion of such things, rather than have them become soccer hooligans over complaining about the Roman Catholic Church?  

Rather than censor it, why not channel it into one place and leave the rest of orthodoxchristianity.net free really to be about Orthodox (and Oriental and Assyrian) Christianity?

I don't want to censor it at all; I think the issues that are raised are more or less relevant to us as well.  I guess I just feel uneasy about such a thread.  If one has disagreements with doctrinal matters with the RCC from the Orthodox perspective, is there not a Faith folder or something in which to discuss that?  Or how about Orthodox/Catholic discussion?  If the problems are with Liturgy, I notice the Liturgy forum allows discussion of RC liturgy for comparative purposes.  Perhaps we should resurrect the old "Modernism" folder if the talks will be about that topic?  

Would channeling it all to one thread work?  I think that would make one huge thread, if that's all we are going to do.  Rather than that, why not relate one's gripes with the RCC to Orthodoxy in some way (comparative theology, liturgics, etc.)?  One can then present their issues with that Church while doing what this board should do, discussing Orthodoxy.    

It's not true in Russia, but in North America, they are 'the big church'. When the secular jerks and the fundygelicals see them, with the Eucharist and devotion to Mary and the saints, they see us too. Maybe that's not fair. Or maybe it reflects some truth, that the apostolics have more in common than what separates them and that's what's important. But it simply is.

On this, we agree.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
MKG
Guest
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2002, 11:19:38 AM »

Quote
The documents themselves reek of the progressivism of the late 1950s/early 1960s. All they needed was the imprimatur of U.Thant and the U.N., and then they would have been perfect. Pope John XXIII made (more on him in a moment) a momentously stupid decision.

He sure did.

Quote
why are the regulations concerning Orthodox-Catholic marriage and Orthodox who wish to become ROMAN Catholic so darn legalistic?!

OK, we get it - you want to be RC. Perhaps that is beyond the scope of this board.

Quote
Note to Moderators: I didn't know where to put this-since there isn't a "Bash the RC Church" folder, I just put it here.

There should be ONE thread only called 'Complain about RC' or something like that, leaving the rest of the board free of inappropriate digressions about western Catholicism.

I thought this board could at least have some intelligent, non-polemical discussion about the problems in Catholic Christianity. Oh and BTW, whether or not I want to become RC is irrelevant-its just something I noticed in the book. Yep, that's me-an anti-Catholic bigot.

Not very sincerely,

Michael King
Logged
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,530


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2002, 11:22:47 AM »

Well, Michael, sorry to disappoint you, but this board isn't ABOUT big-C Catholicism. Perhaps you would be happier at another one.
Logged

Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2002, 11:47:21 AM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Quote
let's be honest, that's just about all the former byzantines.org did. It was dead a lot of the time. It didn't spring to life over icons, theosis or hesychasm. No, the hot thread was 'complaints about LA's new RC cathedral' (on which I think I posted a grand total of twice, choosing to avoid the topic).
I posted this before but it never showed up. So I'm trying to gather my thoughts and repost a shortened version.

Instead of welcoming that, which made us dead, maybe with the new name we should have a new attitude. We are OrthodoxChristianity.net so lets focus on Orthodox Christianity. I don't mind discussing Catholicism if it directly relates to Orthodoxy, but if one wants to talk about the Roman Catholic Church, then one can do that at many other places on the web.

We should not not be a clone of ByzCath.org by discussing more Catholic issues than Orhtodox, let's live up to our new name of OrthodoxChristianity.net and be about Orthodox Christianity. We have many new posters & all but one thread is about Orthodoxy, and we're thriving, so lets build on that. Just my opinion. God Bless!
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,556


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2002, 12:03:38 PM »

We are OrthodoxChristianity.net so lets focus on Orthodox Christianity. I don't mind discussing Catholicism if it directly relates to Orthodoxy, but if one wants to talk about the Roman Catholic Church, then one can do that at many other places on the web.

We should not not be a clone of ByzCath.org by discussing more Catholic issues than Orhtodox, let's live up to our new name of OrthodoxChristianity.net and be about Orthodox Christianity. We have many new posters & all but one thread is about Orthodoxy, and we're thriving, so lets build on that. Just my opinion. God Bless!


I couldn't have said it better myself.  I think issues relating to the Roman Catholic Church can and should be discussed, but surely we can relate it to Orthodoxy in some way, unless all we're gonna do is complain about the bad things (which we can also relate to Orthodoxy Tongue).  With the new name, we've got a fresh start, and already we're seeing more members come so soon, and more new members too.  Let's focus on Orthodoxy, shall we?
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2002, 02:24:05 PM »

I also think that this website should be a haven from the many shades of heretical western Christianity. (note I do not mean to imply that all western Christians are heretical, however many are including Protestants and modernist RC's).  This should be an Orthodox (capital O) Christian forum.  Thus the name.  

That being said, I have a real question about Vatican II (shudder) and Orthodoxy.  Vatican II was designed to bring about ecumenism, in wich it, and hundreds of dioceses across the world, have sold out to the Spirit of the Age.  How did Vatican II affect ecumenical relations with the Orthodox?  

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.057 seconds with 37 queries.