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Author Topic: Lutheran Church of Sweden to Offer Same-Sex Marriages  (Read 6254 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tallitot
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« on: October 23, 2009, 05:40:03 AM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2009, 04:06:58 PM »

This has been coming for some time.  When the Lutheran Church of Sweden first decided to even bless same sex unions, the Moscow Patriarchate immediately cut off ties with them which they weren't happy about.  I'm sure that other churches, Orthodox, Anglican, and Catholic and even some traditional Lutheran communities here in the states as well as in Australia and Africa will do the same.  There is a non-state recognized Lutheran Church in Sweden (can't remember their exact name) but I think that they will come under increasing pressure as time goes on.
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2009, 04:26:47 PM »

I guess the salt is losing its saltiness.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 04:27:01 PM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2009, 04:29:34 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html


Ho hum. So now its official.
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2009, 04:34:39 PM »

This has been coming for some time.  When the Lutheran Church of Sweden first decided to even bless same sex unions, the Moscow Patriarchate immediately cut off ties with them which they weren't happy about.  I'm sure that other churches, Orthodox, Anglican, and Catholic and even some traditional Lutheran communities here in the states as well as in Australia and Africa will do the same.  There is a non-state recognized Lutheran Church in Sweden (can't remember their exact name) but I think that they will come under increasing pressure as time goes on.

In Smaland, where I have a great-grandfather (I'm a Goth first, Swede second), there is the highest church attendance.  It is also the place with the most "dissident" churches.

My great grandfather's church:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljuders_kyrka
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2009, 04:40:21 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

You're Jewish so why do you care? Just curious.
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 04:58:31 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2009, 06:28:07 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

You're anti-Ecclesia?  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2009, 06:36:32 PM »

Quote
"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

I wonder if they are merely ignoring the biblical and traditional treatment of homosexuality, trying to explain such beliefs away, or if they are rather suggesting that morality can/should evolve over time.
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2009, 07:03:06 PM »

Quote
"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

I wonder if they are merely ignoring the biblical and traditional treatment of homosexuality, trying to explain such beliefs away, or if they are rather suggesting that morality can/should evolve over time.

Isn't the very nature of Protestantism to protest and then change things?  Whenever a Protestant church has a disagreement, they split up into two churches.  I think that when the year 3000 rolls around, there will be a hundred million versions/sects of protestants.
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2009, 07:11:52 PM »

Quote
"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

I wonder if they are merely ignoring the biblical and traditional treatment of homosexuality, trying to explain such beliefs away, or if they are rather suggesting that morality can/should evolve over time.

Isn't the very nature of Protestantism to protest and then change things?  Whenever a Protestant church has a disagreement, they split up into two churches.  I think that when the year 3000 rolls around, there will be a hundred million versions/sects of protestants.
These denominations multiply like rabbits.
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2009, 07:26:10 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 07:27:18 PM »

Quote
"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

I wonder if they are merely ignoring the biblical and traditional treatment of homosexuality, trying to explain such beliefs away, or if they are rather suggesting that morality can/should evolve over time.

Both.

Edited for clarity owing to the passage of time between when this post was submitted and when it was approved.-YtterbiumAnalyst
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 07:29:50 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2009, 07:52:09 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...
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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2009, 08:17:37 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...
Should we wallow in our unhealthiness?
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« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2009, 09:14:08 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

You're Jewish so why do you care? Just curious.
It's religious news I saw and thought would be of interest.

Why do you care that I care?
Why do I care that you care that I care?
Do you care that I care that you care that I care?
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2009, 09:18:11 PM »

Quote
It's religious news I saw and thought would be of interest.

And indeed it is, even for we non-Christians. One doesn't have to be a Greek to be interested in Greek history or philosophy, why would someone have to be a Christian to be interested in Christian goings-on? Christianity is the largest religion in the world, and has a significant impact on the culture(s) in which we live; and besides that, it's just filled with fascinating history, doctrines, and practices. Nothing wrong with have an interest in it.
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2009, 09:38:42 PM »

Does anyone know if this has legal ramifications in the US?  Like could a homosexual couple go to sweden, get married, and then transfer their legal status to the US?  I would think "depends on the state" but I could be wrong...
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2009, 10:20:02 PM »

Does anyone know if this has legal ramifications in the US?  Like could a homosexual couple go to sweden, get married, and then transfer their legal status to the US?  I would think "depends on the state" but I could be wrong...
Off hand I would say "no", since immigration law is federal, and the federal government doesn't recognize same-sex marriages, even those recognized in one of the 50 states.
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2009, 10:33:32 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

You're Jewish so why do you care? Just curious.
It's religious news I saw and thought would be of interest.

Why do you care that I care?
Why do I care that you care that I care?
Do you care that I care that you care that I care?

Well, Dr. Seuss, I just think it's odd that a Jewish person would post Protestant news on an Eastern Orthodox Christian forum, that's all.
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2009, 10:42:38 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

You're Jewish so why do you care? Just curious.
It's religious news I saw and thought would be of interest.

Why do you care that I care?
Why do I care that you care that I care?
Do you care that I care that you care that I care?

Well, Dr. Seuss, I just think it's odd that a Jewish person would post Protestant news on an Eastern Orthodox Christian forum, that's all.
Well it has spawned some discussion. Don't be the Grinch Who Stole Hanukkah.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 10:44:35 PM by Tallitot » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2009, 11:10:31 PM »

Does anyone know if this has legal ramifications in the US?  Like could a homosexual couple go to sweden, get married, and then transfer their legal status to the US?  I would think "depends on the state" but I could be wrong...

Even overseas heterosexual marriages of US citizens are not "automatically" recognised in the US:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86802.pdf
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2009, 12:10:49 AM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...
Should we wallow in our unhealthiness?

No. We should try to be healthier. But we have no right to accuse people who are not like us in being unhealthier than we are, simply because they are unhealthy in a different way.
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« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2009, 01:15:37 AM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...
Should we wallow in our unhealthiness?

No. We should try to be healthier. But we have no right to accuse people who are not like us in being unhealthier than we are, simply because they are unhealthy in a different way.
But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
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« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2009, 08:45:57 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.
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« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2009, 09:33:07 AM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...

But do you call your vices virtues?

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...
Should we wallow in our unhealthiness?

No. We should try to be healthier. But we have no right to accuse people who are not like us in being unhealthier than we are, simply because they are unhealthy in a different way.

We should not call them healthy either.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 09:38:05 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2009, 09:35:28 AM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

You're Jewish so why do you care? Just curious.
It's religious news I saw and thought would be of interest.

Why do you care that I care?
Why do I care that you care that I care?
Do you care that I care that you care that I care?

Well, Dr. Seuss, I just think it's odd that a Jewish person would post Protestant news on an Eastern Orthodox Christian forum, that's all.
Well it has spawned some discussion. Don't be the Grinch Who Stole Hanukkah.

LOL.  Afraid he has got you there Gabriel.

I would say that this is an issue where allies, or at least people on the same side of the issue, from various religions can and should ban together.
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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2009, 09:36:12 AM »

Does anyone know if this has legal ramifications in the US?  Like could a homosexual couple go to sweden, get married, and then transfer their legal status to the US?  I would think "depends on the state" but I could be wrong...

Even overseas heterosexual marriages of US citizens are not "automatically" recognised in the US:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86802.pdf

As it should be. Marriage fraud is rampent, and not victimless.
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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2009, 10:03:50 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.

As long as the CoS claims to the status of "Church" and even "Apostolic Church" (her claims are like the Anglican), we have to hold her to certain standards.  If Muslims, Jews, Hindus or atheists offer same-sex marriage, it's a different argument.

Sociology and statistics, btw, not only dogma, show it is unhealthy, and why marriage is dying in Sweden (it reported the lowest marriage rate ever in recorded history in 1997, just 3 threes after passing gay marriage):
Quote
Despite the reluctance of Scandinavian social scientists to study the consequences of family dissolution for children, we do have an excellent study that followed the life experiences of all children born in Stockholm in 1953. (Not coincidentally, the research was conducted by a British scholar, Duncan W.G. Timms.) That study found that regardless of income or social status, parental breakup had negative effects on children's mental health. Boys living with single, separated, or divorced mothers had particularly high rates of impairment in adolescence. An important 2003 study by Gunilla Ringbäck Weitoft, et al. found that children of single parents in Sweden have more than double the rates of mortality, severe morbidity, and injury of children in two parent households. This held true after controlling for a wide range of demographic and socioeconomic circumstances....

We see this process at work in the radical separation of marriage and parenthood that swept across Scandinavia in the nineties. If Scandinavian out-of-wedlock birthrates had not already been high in the late eighties, gay marriage would have been far more difficult to imagine. More than a decade into post-gay marriage Scandinavia, out-of-wedlock birthrates have passed 50 percent, and the effective end of marriage as a protective shield for children has become thinkable. Gay marriage hasn't blocked the separation of marriage and parenthood; it has advanced it...

Norway's gay marriage debate, which ran most intensely from 1991 through 1993, was a culture-shifting event. And once enacted, gay marriage had a decidedly unconservative impact on Norway's cultural contests, weakening marriage's defenders, and placing a weapon in the hands of those who sought to replace marriage with cohabitation. Since its adoption, gay marriage has brought division and decline to Norway's Lutheran Church. Meanwhile, Norway's fast-rising out-of-wedlock birthrate has shot past Denmark's. Particularly in Norway--once relatively conservative--gay marriage has undermined marriage's institutional standing for everyone...

So rather than strengthening Norwegian marriage against the rise of cohabitation and out-of-wedlock birth, same-sex marriage had the opposite effect. Gay marriage lessened the church's authority by splitting it into warring factions and providing the secular media with occasions to mock and expose divisions. Gay marriage also elevated the church's openly rebellious minority liberal faction to national visibility, allowing Norwegians to feel that their proclivity for unmarried parenthood, if not fully approved by the church, was at least not strongly condemned. If the "conservative case" for gay marriage had been valid, clergy who were supportive of gay marriage would Spedale's have taken a strong public stand against unmarried heterosexual parenthood. This didn't happen. It was the conservative clergy who criticized the prince, while the liberal supporters of gay marriage tolerated his decisions. The message was not lost on ordinary Norwegians, who continued their flight to unmarried parenthood.

Gay marriage is both an effect and a reinforcing cause of the separation of marriage and parenthood. In states like Sweden and Denmark, where out-of-wedlock birthrates were already very high, and the public favored gay marriage, gay unions were an effect of earlier changes. Once in place, gay marriage symbolically ratified the separation of marriage and parenthood. And once established, gay marriage became one of several factors contributing to further increases in cohabitation and out-of-wedlock birthrates, as well as to early divorce. But in Norway, where out-of-wedlock birthrates were lower, religion stronger, and the public opposed same-sex unions, gay marriage had an even greater role in precipitating marital decline....

The Scandinavian experience rebuts the so-called conservative case for gay marriage in more than one way. Noteworthy, too, is the lack of a movement toward marriage and monogamy among gays. Take-up rates on gay marriage are exceedingly small. Yale's William Eskridge acknowledged this when he reported in 2000 that 2,372 couples had registered after nine years of the Danish law, 674 after four years of the Norwegian law, and 749 after four years of the Swedish law...
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp?pg=2
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« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2009, 10:16:46 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.
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« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2009, 10:48:18 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.


To heresy. No, I'm not.
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« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2009, 10:59:23 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.


To heresy. No, I'm not.
Okie dokie. But if everyone took that attitude no one who considers Orthodoxy to be heresy would convert.
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« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2009, 11:07:22 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.


To heresy. No, I'm not.
Okie dokie. But if everyone took that attitude no one who considers Orthodoxy to be heresy would convert.


You are proved wrong many times over.  Some of us raised in heresy haven't the time any more for it.

The CoS has no argument in its favor of its recent deision that can withstand scrutiny.  None.  It is simply being of the world, and rubber stamping the world's agenda.  Such is not the Gospel.
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« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2009, 11:10:44 AM »

It is interesting (and sad) that the Protestant traditions that are outwardly closer to catholicity and orthodoxy in their liturgical practises are the ones who are imploding in faith and practise at an accelerated rate.  Might it be that Lutheranism and Anglicanism come so close to the flame, they are burned thereby?  We take for granted the many layers of weaponry that assist us in keeping our Orthodox faith:  private confession, fasting, prayer offices,  highly developed liturgical cycles, monasticism, affirmation of married priests, affirmation of celibate bishops, veneration of icons, etc. We must be ready to receive the refugees from these traditions; most of them are good people who are looking for stability.
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« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2009, 11:12:55 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.


To heresy. No, I'm not.
Okie dokie. But if everyone took that attitude no one who considers Orthodoxy to be heresy would convert.


You are proved wrong many times over.  Some of us raised in heresy haven't the time any more for it.
That statement just goes to show that you are not listening and are in a monologue. Read through the nested quotes again.

The CoS has no argument in its favor of its recent deision that can withstand scrutiny.  None.  It is simply being of the world, and rubber stamping the world's agenda.  Such is not the Gospel.
You mean, like permitting divorcees to remarry even though Christ Himself forbade it in the Gospel?
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« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2009, 12:38:49 PM »

FYI-Here is National Assoc. for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) statistics (from Sweden) on gay divorce (registered same sex partnership).

http://www.narth.com/docs/sweden.html

There is an unbelievably high divorce rate among homosexuals.  Gay male couples were 50% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.  Lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.

(My professional opinion on gay/lesbian marriage =unhealthy.)
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« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2009, 01:05:03 PM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.


To heresy. No, I'm not.
Okie dokie. But if everyone took that attitude no one who considers Orthodoxy to be heresy would convert.


You are proved wrong many times over.  Some of us raised in heresy haven't the time any more for it.
That statement just goes to show that you are not listening and are in a monologue. Read through the nested quotes again.

So I'm listening, and waiting to hear (or rather see) you say that gay marriage is heretical.

The CoS has no argument in its favor of its recent deision that can withstand scrutiny.  None.  It is simply being of the world, and rubber stamping the world's agenda.  Such is not the Gospel.
You mean, like permitting divorcees to remarry even though Christ Himself forbade it in the Gospel?
I do believe we have gone over that misguided canard a couple times.  Do a search.
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« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2009, 01:09:07 PM »

FYI-Here is National Assoc. for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) statistics (from Sweden) on gay divorce (registered same sex partnership).

http://www.narth.com/docs/sweden.html

There is an unbelievably high divorce rate among homosexuals.  Gay male couples were 50% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.  Lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.

(My professional opinion on gay/lesbian marriage =unhealthy.)
Homosexual men statistically have an astronomically higher number of sexual partners in their lives than do their heterosexual conterparts. Seems that women, for the most part, have a taming effect on men. But when its man on man, that does not happen.
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« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2009, 04:56:52 PM »

But besides all of this, the acts of homosexuality are perverse in and of themselves.  It is against nature; God did not create us this way.  However that said, when some conservative try to say that homosexuality is learned behavior- they are only partially correct.  It is fair to say that this perversion is part of that which we partake in as fallen persons who share in the corruption of this world.  Thus when someone says "God made me this way" we need to guide them that indeed they may have struggled with this as long as they can remember, but that all of us struggle with passions and things that are not what God intended for us in the beginning; neither for all eternity.
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« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2009, 05:00:59 PM »

Quote
Lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples

I suck at math, I admit this. However, if we assume a divorce rate of 40% among heterosexuals, wouldn't your statistic put the divorce rate among lesbian couples over 100%?
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« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2009, 05:03:27 PM »

Catholics and Orthodox Express "Sadness" over Swedish Lutheran Decision to Embrace Homosexual "Marriage"
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« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2009, 05:15:08 PM »

I suck at math, I admit this. However, if we assume a divorce rate of 40% among heterosexuals, wouldn't your statistic put the divorce rate among lesbian couples over 100%?

 Grin No. Never thought I would be correcting someone's math.
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« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2009, 05:16:54 PM »

Quote
Lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples

I suck at math, I admit this. However, if we assume a divorce rate of 40% among heterosexuals, wouldn't your statistic put the divorce rate among lesbian couples over 100%?

The study compiling the statistics was the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy (2004).  Read more here.
http://www.narth.com/docs/sweden.html

http://www.marriagedebate.com/pdf/SSdivorcerisk.pdf
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« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2009, 06:15:58 PM »

Quote
Lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples

I suck at math, I admit this. However, if we assume a divorce rate of 40% among heterosexuals, wouldn't your statistic put the divorce rate among lesbian couples over 100%?

The links don't work, but if I had to guess, the 167% is something of the "per thousand" number, like this:
Quote
The U.S. divorce rate is 17.7 per 1,000 married women. It was 22.6 in 1980 when the decline began. The marriage rate also has dropped — 50% since 1970 — to 39.9 per 1,000 unmarried women.

The report notes that though the U.S. divorce rate has been steadily declining, the Swedish divorce rate has been increasing.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2005-07-17-marriage-lite_x.htm

Another thing the article deals with is the question of cohabitation, already much higher (28% to 8%) in Sweden.
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« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2009, 06:16:56 PM »

But besides all of this, the acts of homosexuality are perverse in and of themselves.  It is against nature; God did not create us this way.  However that said, when some conservative try to say that homosexuality is learned behavior- they are only partially correct.  It is fair to say that this perversion is part of that which we partake in as fallen persons who share in the corruption of this world.  Thus when someone says "God made me this way" we need to guide them that indeed they may have struggled with this as long as they can remember, but that all of us struggle with passions and things that are not what God intended for us in the beginning; neither for all eternity.
Becuase of the fall it seems that there is no one who is 100% pure hetero never having had an attraction to a person of the same gender. It seems that the problem of indulging these homosexual temptations.
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« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2009, 06:29:06 PM »

Becuase of the fall it seems that there is no one who is 100% pure hetero never having had an attraction to a person of the same gender. It seems that the problem of indulging these homosexual temptations.

Nonsense. I, for one, have NEVER been moved to consider anyone of my own sex sexually attractive. Moreover, having had a colonoscopy a few years ago removed any possible lingering curiosity.  Tongue Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2009, 06:35:33 PM »

Try link again.

http://www.marriagedebate.com/pdf/SSdivorcerisk.pdf

SAME-SEX UNIONS AND DIVORCE RISK:
DATA FROM SWEDEN
Maggie Gallagher & Joshua K. Baker
 
A recent study offers the first systematic
review of same-sex unions and divorce rates
based on accurate national register data in
Sweden from the 1990’s.1
The study found that gay male couples
were 1.5 times as likely (or 50 percent more
likely) to divorce as married opposite-sex
couples, while lesbian couples were 2.67
times as likely (167 percent more likely) to
divorce as opposite-sex married couples
over a similar period of time.2 Even after
controlling for demographic characteristics
associated with increased risk of divorce,
male same-sex couples were 1.35 times as
likely (35 percent more likely) to divorce,
and lesbian couples were three times as
likely (200 percent more likely) to divorce as
opposite-sex married couples.
-------------------------------

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« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2009, 06:44:32 PM »

Becuase of the fall it seems that there is no one who is 100% pure hetero never having had an attraction to a person of the same gender. It seems that the problem of indulging these homosexual temptations.

Nonsense. I, for one, have NEVER been moved to consider anyone of my own sex sexually attractive. Moreover, having had a colonoscopy a few years ago removed any possible lingering curiosity.  Tongue Tongue Tongue
^^Agree and I choose vomiting over taking nausea suppositories. (Compazine or Tigan)
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« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2009, 06:59:47 PM »

Becuase of the fall it seems that there is no one who is 100% pure hetero never having had an attraction to a person of the same gender. It seems that the problem of indulging these homosexual temptations.

Nonsense. I, for one, have NEVER been moved to consider anyone of my own sex sexually attractive. Moreover, having had a colonoscopy a few years ago removed any possible lingering curiosity.  Tongue Tongue Tongue
Sure  you've never had a single attraction at all to any person of the same gender. That a pretty impossible tale for me to swallow.
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« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2009, 07:12:40 PM »

Becuase of the fall it seems that there is no one who is 100% pure hetero never having had an attraction to a person of the same gender. It seems that the problem of indulging these homosexual temptations.

Nonsense. I, for one, have NEVER been moved to consider anyone of my own sex sexually attractive. Moreover, having had a colonoscopy a few years ago removed any possible lingering curiosity.  Tongue Tongue Tongue
Sure  you've never had a single attraction at all to any person of the same gender. That a pretty impossible tale for me to swallow.

Perhaps. You may choose not to believe me, but it's the truth. Even as a teenager, the idea of same-sex sexual attraction revolted me. And I'm sure I'm not the only one out of several billion people on this earth.
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« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2009, 07:31:56 PM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others.
So I wonder where we should turn for the "ortho" definition?  Wink


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« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2009, 07:33:52 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

You're Jewish so why do you care? Just curious.
It's religious news I saw and thought would be of interest.

Why do you care that I care?
Why do I care that you care that I care?
Do you care that I care that you care that I care?

Well, Dr. Seuss, I just think it's odd that a Jewish person would post Protestant news on an Eastern Orthodox Christian forum, that's all.
Well it has spawned some discussion. Don't be the Grinch Who Stole Hanukkah.

LOL.  Afraid he has got you there Gabriel.

'Ol Tallit made a funny for sure.  We'll just leave it at that.  Smiley
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« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2009, 07:39:38 PM »

Quote
Becuase of the fall it seems that there is no one who is 100% pure hetero never having had an attraction to a person of the same gender. It seems that the problem of indulging these homosexual temptations.

So on a continuum that had 1) totally heterosexual, 2) heteroflexible, 3) bisexual, 4) totally homosexual, 5) pansexual, you wouldn't put anyone (or almost anyone) in the first, totally heterosexual, category?
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« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2009, 08:16:18 PM »

Quote
Becuase of the fall it seems that there is no one who is 100% pure hetero never having had an attraction to a person of the same gender. It seems that the problem of indulging these homosexual temptations.

So on a continuum that had 1) totally heterosexual, 2) heteroflexible, 3) bisexual, 4) totally homosexual, 5) pansexual, you wouldn't put anyone (or almost anyone) in the first, totally heterosexual, category?
The higher one’s sex drive, the less restricted is one’s sociosexual orientation.

Females’ sexual urges (attraction to men or women) are highly correlated to their self-control. 

Males’ self control is ONLY correlated with less restrictive sociosexuality (casual sex). 

jmostovich.googlepages.com/dissertation.pdf -
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« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2009, 08:20:49 PM »

Interesting, if true. Smiley

Btw, I made a mistake in putting pansexual in the fifth place, since it doesn't really fit there on the continuum. I don't suppose pansexuality would fit anywhere on the continuum.
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« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2009, 08:22:04 PM »

^You forgot asexual.   I think it only includes about 2% of the population but they should still be represented.
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« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2009, 08:47:08 PM »

^You forgot asexual.   I think it only includes about 2% of the population but they should still be represented.

It's not just for amoebas anymore.
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« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2009, 09:29:10 PM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others.
So I wonder where we should turn for the "ortho" definition?  Wink
Which "we" are you talking about? The Church of Sweden? That was my point. The Muslims think Sweden should be Muslim, the Roman Catholics think Sweden should be Roman Catholic, Dawkins thinks Sweden should be Atheist......
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« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2009, 09:36:21 PM »

The CoS has no argument in its favor of its recent deision that can withstand scrutiny.  None.  It is simply being of the world, and rubber stamping the world's agenda.  Such is not the Gospel.
You mean, like permitting divorcees to remarry even though Christ Himself forbade it in the Gospel?
I do believe we have gone over that misguided canard a couple times.  Do a search.
You believe wrong. The question is simple: is the marriage bed of a divorcee who remarries defiled?
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« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2009, 09:44:36 PM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others.
So I wonder where we should turn for the "ortho" definition?  Wink
Which "we" are you talking about?
Humans. 

And before you me give some cockamamie runaround, why are you an Orthodox Christian?  Because that's what your daddy is and by golly it's good enough for you too?  Or because you recognize it's a hospital for the soul needing to become healthy?
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« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2009, 09:51:30 PM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others.
So I wonder where we should turn for the "ortho" definition?  Wink
Which "we" are you talking about?
Humans. 

And before you me give some cockamamie runaround, why are you an Orthodox Christian?  Because that's what your daddy is and by golly it's good enough for you too?  Or because you recognize it's a hospital for the soul needing to become healthy?
You still don't get it. Why is a Muslim convert a Muslim? Don't they recognise it as the truth? Shouldn't Muslims therefore impose their beliefs on the Church of Sweden? The Church of Sweden made a considered decision, and you are saying that they must reconsider because you are an Orthodox Christian (or is it because you are American?). It just doesn't make sense in the first place, and  in the second place I don't understand why you even care what the Church of Sweden does.
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« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2009, 11:37:25 PM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others.
So I wonder where we should turn for the "ortho" definition?  Wink
Which "we" are you talking about?
Humans. 

And before you me give some cockamamie runaround, why are you an Orthodox Christian?  Because that's what your daddy is and by golly it's good enough for you too?  Or because you recognize it's a hospital for the soul needing to become healthy?
You still don't get it. Why is a Muslim convert a Muslim?

LOL.  You asked that of the wrong person.  I doubt you'll be able to handle his answer, should he so choose.

Quote
Don't they recognise it as the truth? Shouldn't Muslims therefore impose their beliefs on the Church of Sweden?

Should they?  No, but that is only because I know better.  They are, however, and in fact the CoS is inviting them to do it. Sweden is a lovely example of liberal guilt: the Swedes encountered no Muslims to speak of, but they are going to "rectify" things.  The LARGE numbers, now in Sweden, of Christians who have fled Islam have brought it to the CoS attention that they know a thing or two about Islam.

Quote
The Church of Sweden made a considered decision, and you are saying that they must reconsider because you are an Orthodox Christian (or is it because you are American?).

Or maybe because they claim to be an Apostolic Church and Apostolic Christianity teaches no such thing.


Quote
It just doesn't make sense in the first place, and  in the second place I don't understand why you even care what the Church of Sweden does.

Leaving aside why you, way down under, care about what someone in the stix of middle America (no offense Gabriel, just for effect) cares about the CoS is a more interesting (and no doubt contorted) question: we have plenty of those who run after the latest fool thing that they are doing in Sweden, including the one now running....perhaps that would be in politics.
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« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2009, 11:50:55 PM »

The CoS has no argument in its favor of its recent deision that can withstand scrutiny.  None.  It is simply being of the world, and rubber stamping the world's agenda.  Such is not the Gospel.
You mean, like permitting divorcees to remarry even though Christ Himself forbade it in the Gospel?
I do believe we have gone over that misguided canard a couple times.  Do a search.
You believe wrong. The question is simple: is the marriage bed of a divorcee who remarries defiled?

Start another thread if you want that answered (again).

In the meantime, answer the question of this thread: is the bed of homosexuals ever pure?
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« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2009, 11:52:42 PM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others.
So I wonder where we should turn for the "ortho" definition?  Wink
Which "we" are you talking about?
Humans. 

And before you me give some cockamamie runaround, why are you an Orthodox Christian? 

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« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2009, 12:10:12 AM »

Quote
In the meantime, answer the question of this thread: is the bed of homosexuals ever pure?

Answer, anyone?
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« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2009, 12:26:37 AM »

Quote
In the meantime, answer the question of this thread: is the bed of homosexuals ever pure?

Answer, anyone?

No.
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« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2009, 02:33:31 AM »

I vote another no, but what do I know?  Wink
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« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2009, 04:04:46 AM »

In the meantime, answer the question of this thread: is the bed of homosexuals ever pure?
It can be undefiled I think- just as the marriage bed of a remarried divorcee is.
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« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2009, 05:29:36 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others.
So I wonder where we should turn for the "ortho" definition?  Wink
Which "we" are you talking about?
Humans. 

And before you me give some cockamamie runaround, why are you an Orthodox Christian? 

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« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2009, 09:41:25 AM »

Quote
Becuase of the fall it seems that there is no one who is 100% pure hetero never having had an attraction to a person of the same gender. It seems that the problem of indulging these homosexual temptations.

So on a continuum that had 1) totally heterosexual, 2) heteroflexible, 3) bisexual, 4) totally homosexual, 5) pansexual, you wouldn't put anyone (or almost anyone) in the first, totally heterosexual, category?
I can't imgagine a case. I would think of people who are very very very close to 100% heterosexual their entire life but I would treat 100% heterosexual as an asymptote that one might get extremely close to but never touch. Every heterosexual that I have been close enough to to ask as told me that they have indeed had at least one gay thought/attraction in their lives. I'm not saying that such is natural to man, but is rather a result of the fall.
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« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2009, 09:44:52 AM »

In the meantime, answer the question of this thread: is the bed of homosexuals ever pure?
It can be undefiled I think- just as the marriage bed of a remarried divorcee is.

Really???  Huh
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« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2009, 09:47:22 AM »

In the meantime, answer the question of this thread: is the bed of homosexuals ever pure?
It can be undefiled I think- just as the marriage bed of a remarried divorcee is.

Really???  Huh
Yes, it's true. The Orthodox Church permits divorcees to remarry.
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« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2009, 09:53:52 AM »

In the meantime, answer the question of this thread: is the bed of homosexuals ever pure?
It can be undefiled I think- just as the marriage bed of a remarried divorcee is.

Really???  Huh
Yes, it's true. The Orthodox Church permits divorcees to remarry.
No, I know that. I am just shocked that you think that homosexual relationships can ber permissabile for a Christian. Would your priest or hierarchs agree with you?
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« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2009, 10:21:31 AM »

No, I know that.
I know you do, I was just being silly.

I am just shocked that you think that homosexual relationships can ber permissabile for a Christian.
Why are you shocked? Does what I think really matter that much? Cheesy

Would your priest or hierarchs agree with you?
I haven't discussed it with my Bishop, but I have discussed it with two Parish Priests, my current Spiritual Father and the Abbot of the monastery where I am churched. The answers I've received are a lot more complicated than my opinion and range from "no" to a definite "not entirely certain" and include things like "condescension", but none of them treated my questions as unaskable as though the case is closed (unlike what we tend to find in online discussion forums).
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« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2009, 10:28:09 AM »

I know you do, I was just being silly.
One of your favorite pass-times.  Wink I jest.
Why are you shocked? Does what I think really matter that much? Cheesy
It surprizes me because your Church seems to be firmly set against it. Since you seem to be very knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy and it appears that being withing the bounds of orthodoxy is important to you, I would think you would go with your Church on this matter.
I haven't discussed it with my Bishop, but I have discussed it with two Parish Priests, my current Spiritual Father and the Abbot of the monastery where I am churched. The answers I've received are a lot more complicated than my opinion and range from "no" to a definite "not entirely certain" and include things like "condescension", but none of them treated my questions as unaskable as though the case is closed (unlike what we tend to find in online discussion forums).
Interesting. I understand why a person would feel the way you do, but its just suprising to hear from an Orthodox Christian. In my more emotional moments I would like to agree with you but in my more logical ones I know that I cannot. Although I disagree with you I am sympathetic to your view.
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« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2009, 10:54:08 AM »

It surprizes me because your Church seems to be firmly set against it.
My Archdiocese has actually said nothing about the issue, and in fact, I can't recall His All-Holiness discussing the issue either. I've never heard a sermon about it. But I do understand what you mean in that the Church does not bless gay unions.

Since you seem to be very knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy and it appears that being withing the bounds of orthodoxy is important to you, I would think you would go with your Church on this matter.
I am with my Church in all things concerning Dogma, but I'm not sure people on this forum (including the Orthodox) actually realize that the moral teaching of the Church is not necessarily Dogma. There is no "Orthodox" morality, there is just morality. Some moral teachings are relative (culturally determined), some are absolute (eg bayonetting babies is morally wrong no matter what). But I don't think that a moral teaching is automatically considered absolute simply because it is mentioned in the New Testament (for example, women covering their heads in worship or that divorcees remarrying is adultery).
 
Interesting. I understand why a person would feel the way you do, but its just suprising to hear from an Orthodox Christian. In my more emotional moments I would like to agree with you but in my more logical ones I know that I cannot. Although I disagree with you I am sympathetic to your view.
Thanks for respecting my opinion, and rest assured that I respect yours. I'd like it noted however (for the minutes as it were) that it is not just a "feeling" on my part, but a considered opinion.
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« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2009, 10:58:39 AM »

 
Thanks for respecting my opinion, and rest assured that I respect yours. I'd like it noted however (for the minutes as it were) that it is not just a "feeling" on my part, but a considered opinion.
I am sorry. I didn't mean to mischaracterize your view on the matter. I completely understand that you have spent time thinking out your belief concerning this moral issue.
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« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2009, 11:10:06 AM »

In the meantime, answer the question of this thread: is the bed of homosexuals ever pure?
It can be undefiled I think- just as the marriage bed of a remarried divorcee is.


Care to back that up with anything else besides your "considered opinion," which on its face is unsupported by Scripture, the Fathers or Holy Tradition?  Because, as already posted I believe elsewhere, the purity of the remarried (innocent) divorcee can be supported by Scripture, the Fathers and Holy Tradition.  Your fondness for this canard is duly noted.
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« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2009, 11:14:47 AM »

In the meantime, answer the question of this thread: is the bed of homosexuals ever pure?
It can be undefiled I think- just as the marriage bed of a remarried divorcee is.

Really???  Huh
Yes, it's true. The Orthodox Church permits divorcees to remarry.
Some divorcees.  The lax attitude about it that many take (and upon which, I take it, your argument depends) doesn't fall under economia.  It's called lawless abuse.

No, I know that.
I know you do, I was just being silly.

I am just shocked that you think that homosexual relationships can ber permissabile for a Christian.
Why are you shocked? Does what I think really matter that much? Cheesy

Would your priest or hierarchs agree with you?
I haven't discussed it with my Bishop, but I have discussed it with two Parish Priests, my current Spiritual Father and the Abbot of the monastery where I am churched. The answers I've received are a lot more complicated than my opinion and range from "no" to a definite "not entirely certain" and include things like "condescension", but none of them treated my questions as unaskable as though the case is closed (unlike what we tend to find in online discussion forums).

Interesting. What else is "not entirely certain?"  Because the massive rewritting of the Orthodox marriage rite done by those who use it for homosexual "marriages" (I'm quite well aware that it has been done), is a first indication that yes, this matter is more definitely closed.

It surprizes me because your Church seems to be firmly set against it.
My Archdiocese has actually said nothing about the issue, and in fact, I can't recall His All-Holiness discussing the issue either. I've never heard a sermon about it. But I do understand what you mean in that the Church does not bless gay unions.

And what more does your archdiocese or His All-Holiness need to say on the matter? And if they did, do you think it would change things?


Since you seem to be very knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy and it appears that being withing the bounds of orthodoxy is important to you, I would think you would go with your Church on this matter.
I am with my Church in all things concerning Dogma, but I'm not sure people on this forum (including the Orthodox) actually realize that the moral teaching of the Church is not necessarily Dogma. There is no "Orthodox" morality, there is just morality.

Then why the questioning of us "butting in" into the CoS's business on this issue?



Quote
Some moral teachings are relative (culturally determined), some are absolute (eg bayonetting babies is morally wrong no matter what). But I don't think that a moral teaching is automatically considered absolute simply because it is mentioned in the New Testament (for example, women covering their heads in worship or that divorcees remarrying is adultery).

This is something neither culturally determined, nor relative: it is absolute, and more than just casually "mentioned" in the New Testament.


Interesting. I understand why a person would feel the way you do, but its just suprising to hear from an Orthodox Christian. In my more emotional moments I would like to agree with you but in my more logical ones I know that I cannot. Although I disagree with you I am sympathetic to your view.
Thanks for respecting my opinion, and rest assured that I respect yours. I'd like it noted however (for the minutes as it were) that it is not just a "feeling" on my part, but a considered opinion.

Arius, Nestorius, Eutyches, Sergius, Leo III and many others had "considered opinions."
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« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2009, 11:22:58 AM »

I know you do, I was just being silly.
One of your favorite pass-times.  Wink I jest.
Why are you shocked? Does what I think really matter that much? Cheesy
It surprizes me because your Church seems to be firmly set against it.

She is. And so shall She remain. (your church is also firmly set against it,but I think you already know that.  We only disagree that she will always remain so).


Quote
Since you seem to be very knowledgeable about Eastern Orthodoxy

To whom much is given, much is expected. Someone said that. (Luke 12:48)


Quote
and it appears that being withing the bounds of orthodoxy is important to you, I would think you would go with your Church on this matter.
George seems to be trying to exercise "change the timeless teaching of the Church" option.  We know where that usually leads.
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« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2009, 11:27:41 AM »


She is. And so shall She remain. (your church is also firmly set against it,but I think you already know that.  We only disagree that she will always remain so).

I am glad that both of our Churches are witnesses to the truth on this matter even though the truth here is very painful.
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« Reply #81 on: October 28, 2009, 11:31:33 AM »

the purity of the remarried (innocent) divorcee can be supported by Scripture
So are you are claiming that the Orthodox Church only permits divorce in cases of adultery (in accordance with Scripture) and that only the "innocent" divorcee is permitted to remarry?

Firstly, lets look at the Scripture: "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”  (Matthew 19:9) In the first part of the verse, the husband is the "innocent" partner, yet he is told that even if he divorces his fornicating wife and remarries, he is an adulterer. Secondly, divorced adulterers, after being received back into the Church, are permitted to remarry.

The lax attitude about it that many take (and upon which, I take it, your argument depends) doesn't fall under economia.  It's called lawless abuse.
I fear the Orthodox Church will always be too "lax" you you ialmisry.
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« Reply #82 on: October 28, 2009, 11:35:52 AM »

the purity of the remarried (innocent) divorcee can be supported by Scripture
So are you are claiming that the Orthodox Church only permits divorce in cases of adultery (in accordance with Scripture) and that only the "innocent" divorcee is permitted to remarry?

Firstly, lets look at the Scripture: "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”  (Matthew 19:9) In the first part of the verse, the husband is the "innocent" partner, yet he is told that even if he divorces his fornicating wife and remarries, he is an adulterer. Secondly, divorced adulterers, after being received back into the Church, are permitted to remarry.

If we were proof-texting Protestants, you might have had a case.  But we are not, nor is the Church.  How do the Fathers, Tradition and the practice of the Church across the ages interpret it?

Btw, the Antiochian Archdiocese recently reiterated that a priest must first ascertain that the remarriage is not an affair of the previous marriage, in which case no marriage can take place, a few years earlier the Patriarch of Romania stopped dead in its tracks, with his statement "marriage ends only by death or adultery", the liberalization of the divorce laws, and before that the OCA in its statute inserted that an investigation of the divorce must be conducted after attempts of reconciliation (the practice of the OCA is not to recognize the divorce at all until the issue of remarriage comes up), and it must specify whether one is able to remarry.

The lax attitude about it that many take (and upon which, I take it, your argument depends) doesn't fall under economia.  It's called lawless abuse.
I fear the Orthodox Church will always be too "lax" you you ialmisry.

No, she is quite fine in my book.  The Good Book.
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« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2009, 11:44:36 AM »

If we were proof-texting Protestants, you might have had a case.  But we are not, nor is the Church.  How do the Fathers, Tradition and the practice of the Church across the ages interpret it?
Here is a good article about it from His Grace Athenagoras, Bishop of Sinope:
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/athenagoras_remarriage.htm
It not only mentions the Early Fathers understanding of the indissolubility of marriage, but also discusses things such as the pastoral approach to young people who co-habitate. I especially like His Grace's statement: "What is certain is that one should not be moralising or too severe in these situations with regard to the youth, otherwise one will certainly not be heard."
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« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2009, 11:51:24 AM »

So are you are claiming that the Orthodox Church only permits divorce in cases of adultery (in accordance with Scripture) and that only the "innocent" divorcee is permitted to remarry?

IIRC, the "non-innocent" divorcee has been permitted to remarry in a few cases, but after a considerable period of time.  But no, the Church does not in practice restrict ecclesiastically-permitted divorce to merely adultery/fornication; I'm positive cases of spousal abuse, theft & abandonment, and the like have also been accepted.  Usually if there is an "innocent" party, their re-marriage is treated as a first marriage unless the other party is also a divorcee.

Firstly, lets look at the Scripture: "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”  (Matthew 19:9) In the first part of the verse, the husband is the "innocent" partner, yet he is told that even if he divorces his fornicating wife and remarries, he is an adulterer.

Usually the word "except" indicates that a class of persons or actions that follows the word are exempted from the indicated course of action in the rest of the sentence (e.g. "all of the prisoners except those in solitary confinement were out in the exercise yard" or "all the teachers in the school except the interns received a pay-raise this year"); in this case, those who divorce because of fornication being exempted from the remainder of the declaration.  Based on the context, the sentence can be re-stated without changing/losing meaning as "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, except those who divorce for fornication."

The lax attitude about it that many take (and upon which, I take it, your argument depends) doesn't fall under economia.  It's called lawless abuse.
I fear the Orthodox Church will always be too "lax" you you ialmisry.

Anyone who feels that the Church is either too strict or too lax knows neither her nor the One who is her Head.  However, anyone who accuses the human beings who are in charge of steering the ship of strictness or laxity may be on to something.  Either way, God is good; it's a good thing our Church isn't dependent on the holiness and righteousness of those who supervise her.
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« Reply #85 on: October 28, 2009, 11:59:18 AM »

It not only mentions the Early Fathers understanding of the indissolubility of marriage, but also discusses things such as the pastoral approach to young people who co-habitate. I especially like His Grace's statement: "What is certain is that one should not be moralising or too severe in these situations with regard to the youth, otherwise one will certainly not be heard."

Ahh, but avoiding moralization and severity doesn't equate to lying, rather it is an approach that seeks to acknowledge sinfulness and mistake while emphasizing above all that repentance is always available to those who need it and who seek it from the Lord.  While having a conversation with a group of teenagers about sex & sexuality (a situation I found myself in repeatedly before ordination), the message is always first, "As long as you have breath in your lungs, you can make up for your mistakes, and no mistake you make on this Earth is too great for the mercy of the Lord," and then what follows is a presentation of the truth that is age-specific.
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« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2009, 08:59:23 PM »

So are you are claiming that the Orthodox Church only permits divorce in cases of adultery (in accordance with Scripture) and that only the "innocent" divorcee is permitted to remarry?

IIRC, the "non-innocent" divorcee has been permitted to remarry in a few cases, but after a considerable period of time.  But no, the Church does not in practice restrict ecclesiastically-permitted divorce to merely adultery/fornication; I'm positive cases of spousal abuse, theft & abandonment, and the like have also been accepted.  Usually if there is an "innocent" party, their re-marriage is treated as a first marriage unless the other party is also a divorcee.
So "innocent" and "non-innocent" (aka "guilty") divorcees both can remarry in the Orthodox Church, and divorce is granted for reasons other than adultery. Kind of what I am saying,

Usually the word "except" indicates that a class of persons or actions that follows the word are exempted from the indicated course of action in the rest of the sentence (e.g. "all of the prisoners except those in solitary confinement were out in the exercise yard" or "all the teachers in the school except the interns received a pay-raise this year"); in this case, those who divorce because of fornication being exempted from the remainder of the declaration.  Based on the context, the sentence can be re-stated without changing/losing meaning as "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, except those who divorce for fornication."
Interesting. However, since the Orthodox Church permits divorce for reasons other than fornication, she is still not "covered" by this verse- not that I have a problem with that, since it proves my point that an ethical verse is not absolute simply for being in the NT.
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« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2009, 10:00:35 PM »

So are you are claiming that the Orthodox Church only permits divorce in cases of adultery (in accordance with Scripture) and that only the "innocent" divorcee is permitted to remarry?

IIRC, the "non-innocent" divorcee has been permitted to remarry in a few cases, but after a considerable period of time.  But no, the Church does not in practice restrict ecclesiastically-permitted divorce to merely adultery/fornication; I'm positive cases of spousal abuse, theft & abandonment, and the like have also been accepted.  Usually if there is an "innocent" party, their re-marriage is treated as a first marriage unless the other party is also a divorcee.
So "innocent" and "non-innocent" (aka "guilty") divorcees both can remarry in the Orthodox Church, and divorce is granted for reasons other than adultery. Kind of what I am saying,

Usually the word "except" indicates that a class of persons or actions that follows the word are exempted from the indicated course of action in the rest of the sentence (e.g. "all of the prisoners except those in solitary confinement were out in the exercise yard" or "all the teachers in the school except the interns received a pay-raise this year"); in this case, those who divorce because of fornication being exempted from the remainder of the declaration.  Based on the context, the sentence can be re-stated without changing/losing meaning as "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, except those who divorce for fornication."
Interesting. However, since the Orthodox Church permits divorce for reasons other than fornication, she is still not "covered" by this verse- not that I have a problem with that, since it proves my point that an ethical verse is not absolute simply for being in the NT.


And tell us George, how we cannot justify murder the same way?  Let's talk about killing you disapprove of, like war.  How is it that we should fell any moral twinge about, say, pacifying a few villages, or maybe many, as it seems the NT has no absolutes.

And while your at it, returning to the topic of this thread, what is your wiggle room verse on same sex marriage?  Where is there a verse that deals with homosexuality that does not condemn it?  It was quite common in the Greco-Roman world: what Father was neutral about it?  How much of the marriage service can be applied to a homosexual "union?"
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« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2009, 10:14:25 PM »

what is your wiggle room verse on same sex marriage? 
Errr... You need to read the thread again. I just said that an ethical verse is not absolute simply for being in the NT, case in point: divorce and remarriage for reasons other than fornication.
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« Reply #89 on: October 28, 2009, 10:15:08 PM »

If we were proof-texting Protestants, you might have had a case.  But we are not, nor is the Church.  How do the Fathers, Tradition and the practice of the Church across the ages interpret it?
Here is a good article about it from His Grace Athenagoras, Bishop of Sinope:
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/athenagoras_remarriage.htm

Yes indeed. He, unlike you, talks about something apropos to this thread:
Quote
According to the Holy Scriptures marriage is built on:

the distinction, at the first creation of man, between man and woman (“Also God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them”, Gen. 1, 27)
the creation of the woman out of Adam’s rib (Gen 2, 21-24);
the blessing of God on the first created with the words: “be fruitful and increase in number” (Gen. 1 27-28).

These three elements make marriage a spiritual praxis par excellence, not only due to the simple covenant between two people, but especially due to the fact that it is an expression of God’s will. The natural covenant of marriage becomes as it were also a divine covenant, hence also its fully mystical character which the church emphasizes. The principal and therefore the most essential element of marriage is the joining of each person with one single person of the opposite sex. This element of one single person in marriage is maintained even after the fall of the first created creatures in the Old Testament, although this may not always have been adhered to in practise.[3] This element of marriage assumes a resemblance to the relationship between God and the chosen people. This element of one single person in marriage is confirmed by Christ’s teaching on marriage

And as to your digression from the subject:
Quote
And yet the Orthodox Church can however permit divorce and remarriage on the grounds of interpretation of what the Lord says in Matt. 19, 9: “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.” According to Bishop Kallistos Ware divorce is an action of “economia” and “expression of compassion” of the Church toward sinful man. “Since Christ, according to the Matthaean account, allowed an exception to His general ruling about the indissolubility of marriage, the Orthodox Church also is willing to allow an exception”.

A question we can ask ourselves is whether Christ considered marriage as being indissoluble? We need to be very clear in this as when Christ teaches that marriage may not be dissolved that does not mean that He is stating that it cannot occur. The completeness of the marriage relationship can be tainted by erroneous behaviour. In other words, it is the offence that breaks the bond. The divorce is ultimately a result of this break. This is also the teaching of the Eastern Church fathers. A quotation from the testimony of Cyril of Alexandria will be sufficient to make our point here: “It is not the letters of divorce that dissolve the marriage in relation God but the errant behaviour.

There is in other words a close relationship in every dimension between divorce and the possibility of remarriage. It is important here to explain a fundamental element of the Orthodox Church’s doctrine, namely that the dissolving of a marriage relationship does not ipso facto grant the right to enter into another marriage. As we look back to the time of the primitive Church, the Church of the first centuries, then we will have to agree that the Church did not have any juridical authority with regard to marriage, and did not therefore, make any statement concerning their validity. The Holy Basil the Great, for example, referred not to a rule but to usage, as far as this problem was concerned.[25] Speaking concerning the man who had been cheated by his wife, he declares that the man is “pardonable” (to be excused) should he remarry. It is good to remember that the Orthodox Church has in general always had a sense of reluctance regarding second marriages. It would subsequently be completely wrong to assert that orthodox Christians may marry two or three times!

Yet you assert this its seems, over and over, in order to avoid the direct answer on the topic of this thread, i.e. are homosexual "marriages a grace, a concession, or an abomination.


Quote
It not only mentions the Early Fathers understanding of the indissolubility of marriage, but also discusses things such as the pastoral approach to young people who co-habitate. I especially like His Grace's statement: "What is certain is that one should not be moralising or too severe in these situations with regard to the youth, otherwise one will certainly not be heard."
So, should they be given communion?

Whereas his grace seems to talk of this a strategy to bring the youth in, you seem to speak of it as a concession to leave them as they are.

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« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2009, 10:17:16 PM »

1 Sam. 18:1-4? David and Jonathan did love each other, and Jonathan even "stripped himself" in front of David.

Just kidding. Though I would vote in favor of an evolution of morality, even if I were still Orthodox. Then again, some have a problem with allowing even contraception, so I don't expect that acceptance of homosexuality is going to happen overnight. If at all... I admit that I don't really think that the majority of Orthodoxy will ever take up the position of ozgeorge.
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« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2009, 10:18:37 PM »

Whereas his grace seems to talk of this a strategy to bring the youth in, you seem to speak of it as a concession to leave them as they are.
Could you show me where I "seem" to do this? Or is that just some idea you have in your head?
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« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2009, 10:20:36 PM »

what is your wiggle room verse on same sex marriage? 
Errr... You need to read the thread again. I just said that an ethical verse is not absolute simply for being in the NT, case in point: divorce and remarriage for reasons other than fornication.


I Corinthians 10:23“Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others."

What verse leaves over the possibility that homosexuality is permissible, beneficial, constructive or for own's good or that of others?

No, I don't need to read the thread again. I'm on topic.  Open another for your digression.
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« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2009, 10:22:27 PM »

Whereas his grace seems to talk of this a strategy to bring the youth in, you seem to speak of it as a concession to leave them as they are.
Could you show me where I "seem" to do this? Or is that just some idea you have in your head?

Well, why don't you show us where you claim your point was leading to?
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« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2009, 10:25:54 PM »

what is your wiggle room verse on same sex marriage? 
Errr... You need to read the thread again. I just said that an ethical verse is not absolute simply for being in the NT, case in point: divorce and remarriage for reasons other than fornication.


I Corinthians 10:23“Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others."

What verse leaves over the possibility that homosexuality is permissible, beneficial, constructive or for own's good or that of others?
What verse leaves over the possibility that divorce for reasons other than fornication is permissible?
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« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2009, 10:52:30 PM »

what is your wiggle room verse on same sex marriage? 
Errr... You need to read the thread again. I just said that an ethical verse is not absolute simply for being in the NT, case in point: divorce and remarriage for reasons other than fornication.


I Corinthians 10:23“Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others."

What verse leaves over the possibility that homosexuality is permissible, beneficial, constructive or for own's good or that of others?
What verse leaves over the possibility that divorce for reasons other than fornication is permissible?

I haven't defended that position, so you are going to have to play with someone else on that one, until you get back on topic here.

As to your question though:
I Corinthians 7:1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.a 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

Christ did not say "except for religious differences."
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« Reply #96 on: October 31, 2009, 05:44:39 AM »

Christ did not say "except for religious differences."
And St. Paul did not say that if an unbelieving spouse leaves, that the believing spouse can remarry.
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