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Author Topic: Lutheran Church of Sweden to Offer Same-Sex Marriages  (Read 6221 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tallitot
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« on: October 23, 2009, 05:40:03 AM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2009, 04:06:58 PM »

This has been coming for some time.  When the Lutheran Church of Sweden first decided to even bless same sex unions, the Moscow Patriarchate immediately cut off ties with them which they weren't happy about.  I'm sure that other churches, Orthodox, Anglican, and Catholic and even some traditional Lutheran communities here in the states as well as in Australia and Africa will do the same.  There is a non-state recognized Lutheran Church in Sweden (can't remember their exact name) but I think that they will come under increasing pressure as time goes on.
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2009, 04:26:47 PM »

I guess the salt is losing its saltiness.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 04:27:01 PM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2009, 04:29:34 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html


Ho hum. So now its official.
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2009, 04:34:39 PM »

This has been coming for some time.  When the Lutheran Church of Sweden first decided to even bless same sex unions, the Moscow Patriarchate immediately cut off ties with them which they weren't happy about.  I'm sure that other churches, Orthodox, Anglican, and Catholic and even some traditional Lutheran communities here in the states as well as in Australia and Africa will do the same.  There is a non-state recognized Lutheran Church in Sweden (can't remember their exact name) but I think that they will come under increasing pressure as time goes on.

In Smaland, where I have a great-grandfather (I'm a Goth first, Swede second), there is the highest church attendance.  It is also the place with the most "dissident" churches.

My great grandfather's church:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljuders_kyrka
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2009, 04:40:21 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

You're Jewish so why do you care? Just curious.
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 04:58:31 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2009, 06:28:07 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

You're anti-Ecclesia?  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2009, 06:36:32 PM »

Quote
"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

I wonder if they are merely ignoring the biblical and traditional treatment of homosexuality, trying to explain such beliefs away, or if they are rather suggesting that morality can/should evolve over time.
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2009, 07:03:06 PM »

Quote
"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

I wonder if they are merely ignoring the biblical and traditional treatment of homosexuality, trying to explain such beliefs away, or if they are rather suggesting that morality can/should evolve over time.

Isn't the very nature of Protestantism to protest and then change things?  Whenever a Protestant church has a disagreement, they split up into two churches.  I think that when the year 3000 rolls around, there will be a hundred million versions/sects of protestants.
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2009, 07:11:52 PM »

Quote
"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

I wonder if they are merely ignoring the biblical and traditional treatment of homosexuality, trying to explain such beliefs away, or if they are rather suggesting that morality can/should evolve over time.

Isn't the very nature of Protestantism to protest and then change things?  Whenever a Protestant church has a disagreement, they split up into two churches.  I think that when the year 3000 rolls around, there will be a hundred million versions/sects of protestants.
These denominations multiply like rabbits.
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2009, 07:26:10 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 07:27:18 PM »

Quote
"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

I wonder if they are merely ignoring the biblical and traditional treatment of homosexuality, trying to explain such beliefs away, or if they are rather suggesting that morality can/should evolve over time.

Both.

Edited for clarity owing to the passage of time between when this post was submitted and when it was approved.-YtterbiumAnalyst
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 07:29:50 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2009, 07:52:09 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...
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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2009, 08:17:37 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...
Should we wallow in our unhealthiness?
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« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2009, 09:14:08 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

You're Jewish so why do you care? Just curious.
It's religious news I saw and thought would be of interest.

Why do you care that I care?
Why do I care that you care that I care?
Do you care that I care that you care that I care?
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2009, 09:18:11 PM »

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It's religious news I saw and thought would be of interest.

And indeed it is, even for we non-Christians. One doesn't have to be a Greek to be interested in Greek history or philosophy, why would someone have to be a Christian to be interested in Christian goings-on? Christianity is the largest religion in the world, and has a significant impact on the culture(s) in which we live; and besides that, it's just filled with fascinating history, doctrines, and practices. Nothing wrong with have an interest in it.
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2009, 09:38:42 PM »

Does anyone know if this has legal ramifications in the US?  Like could a homosexual couple go to sweden, get married, and then transfer their legal status to the US?  I would think "depends on the state" but I could be wrong...
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2009, 10:20:02 PM »

Does anyone know if this has legal ramifications in the US?  Like could a homosexual couple go to sweden, get married, and then transfer their legal status to the US?  I would think "depends on the state" but I could be wrong...
Off hand I would say "no", since immigration law is federal, and the federal government doesn't recognize same-sex marriages, even those recognized in one of the 50 states.
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2009, 10:33:32 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

You're Jewish so why do you care? Just curious.
It's religious news I saw and thought would be of interest.

Why do you care that I care?
Why do I care that you care that I care?
Do you care that I care that you care that I care?

Well, Dr. Seuss, I just think it's odd that a Jewish person would post Protestant news on an Eastern Orthodox Christian forum, that's all.
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2009, 10:42:38 PM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

You're Jewish so why do you care? Just curious.
It's religious news I saw and thought would be of interest.

Why do you care that I care?
Why do I care that you care that I care?
Do you care that I care that you care that I care?

Well, Dr. Seuss, I just think it's odd that a Jewish person would post Protestant news on an Eastern Orthodox Christian forum, that's all.
Well it has spawned some discussion. Don't be the Grinch Who Stole Hanukkah.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 10:44:35 PM by Tallitot » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2009, 11:10:31 PM »

Does anyone know if this has legal ramifications in the US?  Like could a homosexual couple go to sweden, get married, and then transfer their legal status to the US?  I would think "depends on the state" but I could be wrong...

Even overseas heterosexual marriages of US citizens are not "automatically" recognised in the US:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86802.pdf
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2009, 12:10:49 AM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...
Should we wallow in our unhealthiness?

No. We should try to be healthier. But we have no right to accuse people who are not like us in being unhealthier than we are, simply because they are unhealthy in a different way.
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« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2009, 01:15:37 AM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...
Should we wallow in our unhealthiness?

No. We should try to be healthier. But we have no right to accuse people who are not like us in being unhealthier than we are, simply because they are unhealthy in a different way.
But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
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« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2009, 08:45:57 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.
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« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2009, 09:33:07 AM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

Welll you guys know my position on that. Smiley

Ironic that neither Church nor marriage is healthy in Sweden, but homosexuality is alive and well....

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...

But do you call your vices virtues?

Nothing is healthy anywhere in this fallen world... ourselves, first of all... me, first of the first...
Should we wallow in our unhealthiness?

No. We should try to be healthier. But we have no right to accuse people who are not like us in being unhealthier than we are, simply because they are unhealthy in a different way.

We should not call them healthy either.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 09:38:05 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2009, 09:35:28 AM »

"STOCKHOLM  —  The Church of Sweden has decided to allow its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies.."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569107,00.html

You're Jewish so why do you care? Just curious.
It's religious news I saw and thought would be of interest.

Why do you care that I care?
Why do I care that you care that I care?
Do you care that I care that you care that I care?

Well, Dr. Seuss, I just think it's odd that a Jewish person would post Protestant news on an Eastern Orthodox Christian forum, that's all.
Well it has spawned some discussion. Don't be the Grinch Who Stole Hanukkah.

LOL.  Afraid he has got you there Gabriel.

I would say that this is an issue where allies, or at least people on the same side of the issue, from various religions can and should ban together.
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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2009, 09:36:12 AM »

Does anyone know if this has legal ramifications in the US?  Like could a homosexual couple go to sweden, get married, and then transfer their legal status to the US?  I would think "depends on the state" but I could be wrong...

Even overseas heterosexual marriages of US citizens are not "automatically" recognised in the US:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86802.pdf

As it should be. Marriage fraud is rampent, and not victimless.
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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2009, 10:03:50 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.

As long as the CoS claims to the status of "Church" and even "Apostolic Church" (her claims are like the Anglican), we have to hold her to certain standards.  If Muslims, Jews, Hindus or atheists offer same-sex marriage, it's a different argument.

Sociology and statistics, btw, not only dogma, show it is unhealthy, and why marriage is dying in Sweden (it reported the lowest marriage rate ever in recorded history in 1997, just 3 threes after passing gay marriage):
Quote
Despite the reluctance of Scandinavian social scientists to study the consequences of family dissolution for children, we do have an excellent study that followed the life experiences of all children born in Stockholm in 1953. (Not coincidentally, the research was conducted by a British scholar, Duncan W.G. Timms.) That study found that regardless of income or social status, parental breakup had negative effects on children's mental health. Boys living with single, separated, or divorced mothers had particularly high rates of impairment in adolescence. An important 2003 study by Gunilla Ringbäck Weitoft, et al. found that children of single parents in Sweden have more than double the rates of mortality, severe morbidity, and injury of children in two parent households. This held true after controlling for a wide range of demographic and socioeconomic circumstances....

We see this process at work in the radical separation of marriage and parenthood that swept across Scandinavia in the nineties. If Scandinavian out-of-wedlock birthrates had not already been high in the late eighties, gay marriage would have been far more difficult to imagine. More than a decade into post-gay marriage Scandinavia, out-of-wedlock birthrates have passed 50 percent, and the effective end of marriage as a protective shield for children has become thinkable. Gay marriage hasn't blocked the separation of marriage and parenthood; it has advanced it...

Norway's gay marriage debate, which ran most intensely from 1991 through 1993, was a culture-shifting event. And once enacted, gay marriage had a decidedly unconservative impact on Norway's cultural contests, weakening marriage's defenders, and placing a weapon in the hands of those who sought to replace marriage with cohabitation. Since its adoption, gay marriage has brought division and decline to Norway's Lutheran Church. Meanwhile, Norway's fast-rising out-of-wedlock birthrate has shot past Denmark's. Particularly in Norway--once relatively conservative--gay marriage has undermined marriage's institutional standing for everyone...

So rather than strengthening Norwegian marriage against the rise of cohabitation and out-of-wedlock birth, same-sex marriage had the opposite effect. Gay marriage lessened the church's authority by splitting it into warring factions and providing the secular media with occasions to mock and expose divisions. Gay marriage also elevated the church's openly rebellious minority liberal faction to national visibility, allowing Norwegians to feel that their proclivity for unmarried parenthood, if not fully approved by the church, was at least not strongly condemned. If the "conservative case" for gay marriage had been valid, clergy who were supportive of gay marriage would Spedale's have taken a strong public stand against unmarried heterosexual parenthood. This didn't happen. It was the conservative clergy who criticized the prince, while the liberal supporters of gay marriage tolerated his decisions. The message was not lost on ordinary Norwegians, who continued their flight to unmarried parenthood.

Gay marriage is both an effect and a reinforcing cause of the separation of marriage and parenthood. In states like Sweden and Denmark, where out-of-wedlock birthrates were already very high, and the public favored gay marriage, gay unions were an effect of earlier changes. Once in place, gay marriage symbolically ratified the separation of marriage and parenthood. And once established, gay marriage became one of several factors contributing to further increases in cohabitation and out-of-wedlock birthrates, as well as to early divorce. But in Norway, where out-of-wedlock birthrates were lower, religion stronger, and the public opposed same-sex unions, gay marriage had an even greater role in precipitating marital decline....

The Scandinavian experience rebuts the so-called conservative case for gay marriage in more than one way. Noteworthy, too, is the lack of a movement toward marriage and monogamy among gays. Take-up rates on gay marriage are exceedingly small. Yale's William Eskridge acknowledged this when he reported in 2000 that 2,372 couples had registered after nine years of the Danish law, 674 after four years of the Norwegian law, and 749 after four years of the Swedish law...
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp?pg=2
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« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2009, 10:16:46 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.
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« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2009, 10:48:18 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.


To heresy. No, I'm not.
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« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2009, 10:59:23 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.


To heresy. No, I'm not.
Okie dokie. But if everyone took that attitude no one who considers Orthodoxy to be heresy would convert.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 10:59:59 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2009, 11:07:22 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.


To heresy. No, I'm not.
Okie dokie. But if everyone took that attitude no one who considers Orthodoxy to be heresy would convert.


You are proved wrong many times over.  Some of us raised in heresy haven't the time any more for it.

The CoS has no argument in its favor of its recent deision that can withstand scrutiny.  None.  It is simply being of the world, and rubber stamping the world's agenda.  Such is not the Gospel.
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« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2009, 11:10:44 AM »

It is interesting (and sad) that the Protestant traditions that are outwardly closer to catholicity and orthodoxy in their liturgical practises are the ones who are imploding in faith and practise at an accelerated rate.  Might it be that Lutheranism and Anglicanism come so close to the flame, they are burned thereby?  We take for granted the many layers of weaponry that assist us in keeping our Orthodox faith:  private confession, fasting, prayer offices,  highly developed liturgical cycles, monasticism, affirmation of married priests, affirmation of celibate bishops, veneration of icons, etc. We must be ready to receive the refugees from these traditions; most of them are good people who are looking for stability.
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« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2009, 11:12:55 AM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.


To heresy. No, I'm not.
Okie dokie. But if everyone took that attitude no one who considers Orthodoxy to be heresy would convert.


You are proved wrong many times over.  Some of us raised in heresy haven't the time any more for it.
That statement just goes to show that you are not listening and are in a monologue. Read through the nested quotes again.

The CoS has no argument in its favor of its recent deision that can withstand scrutiny.  None.  It is simply being of the world, and rubber stamping the world's agenda.  Such is not the Gospel.
You mean, like permitting divorcees to remarry even though Christ Himself forbade it in the Gospel?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 11:16:30 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2009, 12:38:49 PM »

FYI-Here is National Assoc. for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) statistics (from Sweden) on gay divorce (registered same sex partnership).

http://www.narth.com/docs/sweden.html

There is an unbelievably high divorce rate among homosexuals.  Gay male couples were 50% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.  Lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.

(My professional opinion on gay/lesbian marriage =unhealthy.)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 12:49:44 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2009, 01:05:03 PM »

But we shouldn't call all people to be healthier?
Difficult question because we are dealing with something which is "unhealthy" according to some people's definition and not others. The Church of Sweden clearly does not consider same-sex marriage to be unhealthy, and I'm afraid the argument that "my religion thinks its unhealthy" doesn't wash. There are Protestants who think the veneration of Icons and Statues is unhealthy. Muslims and Jews think eating pork is unhealthy. Hindus believe eating meat is unhealthy. Whatever our own opinion, I don't think its fair to assume that the Church of Sweden has made an unconsidered decision in allowing same-sex marriages.

So they made a considered wrong decision.  That's so much better.
I don't think you're listening.


To heresy. No, I'm not.
Okie dokie. But if everyone took that attitude no one who considers Orthodoxy to be heresy would convert.


You are proved wrong many times over.  Some of us raised in heresy haven't the time any more for it.
That statement just goes to show that you are not listening and are in a monologue. Read through the nested quotes again.

So I'm listening, and waiting to hear (or rather see) you say that gay marriage is heretical.

The CoS has no argument in its favor of its recent deision that can withstand scrutiny.  None.  It is simply being of the world, and rubber stamping the world's agenda.  Such is not the Gospel.
You mean, like permitting divorcees to remarry even though Christ Himself forbade it in the Gospel?
I do believe we have gone over that misguided canard a couple times.  Do a search.
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« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2009, 01:09:07 PM »

FYI-Here is National Assoc. for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) statistics (from Sweden) on gay divorce (registered same sex partnership).

http://www.narth.com/docs/sweden.html

There is an unbelievably high divorce rate among homosexuals.  Gay male couples were 50% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.  Lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.

(My professional opinion on gay/lesbian marriage =unhealthy.)
Homosexual men statistically have an astronomically higher number of sexual partners in their lives than do their heterosexual conterparts. Seems that women, for the most part, have a taming effect on men. But when its man on man, that does not happen.
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« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2009, 04:56:52 PM »

But besides all of this, the acts of homosexuality are perverse in and of themselves.  It is against nature; God did not create us this way.  However that said, when some conservative try to say that homosexuality is learned behavior- they are only partially correct.  It is fair to say that this perversion is part of that which we partake in as fallen persons who share in the corruption of this world.  Thus when someone says "God made me this way" we need to guide them that indeed they may have struggled with this as long as they can remember, but that all of us struggle with passions and things that are not what God intended for us in the beginning; neither for all eternity.
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« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2009, 05:00:59 PM »

Quote
Lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples

I suck at math, I admit this. However, if we assume a divorce rate of 40% among heterosexuals, wouldn't your statistic put the divorce rate among lesbian couples over 100%?
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« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2009, 05:03:27 PM »

Catholics and Orthodox Express "Sadness" over Swedish Lutheran Decision to Embrace Homosexual "Marriage"
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« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2009, 05:15:08 PM »

I suck at math, I admit this. However, if we assume a divorce rate of 40% among heterosexuals, wouldn't your statistic put the divorce rate among lesbian couples over 100%?

 Grin No. Never thought I would be correcting someone's math.
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« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2009, 05:16:54 PM »

Quote
Lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples

I suck at math, I admit this. However, if we assume a divorce rate of 40% among heterosexuals, wouldn't your statistic put the divorce rate among lesbian couples over 100%?

The study compiling the statistics was the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy (2004).  Read more here.
http://www.narth.com/docs/sweden.html

http://www.marriagedebate.com/pdf/SSdivorcerisk.pdf
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« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2009, 06:15:58 PM »

Quote
Lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples

I suck at math, I admit this. However, if we assume a divorce rate of 40% among heterosexuals, wouldn't your statistic put the divorce rate among lesbian couples over 100%?

The links don't work, but if I had to guess, the 167% is something of the "per thousand" number, like this:
Quote
The U.S. divorce rate is 17.7 per 1,000 married women. It was 22.6 in 1980 when the decline began. The marriage rate also has dropped — 50% since 1970 — to 39.9 per 1,000 unmarried women.

The report notes that though the U.S. divorce rate has been steadily declining, the Swedish divorce rate has been increasing.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2005-07-17-marriage-lite_x.htm

Another thing the article deals with is the question of cohabitation, already much higher (28% to 8%) in Sweden.
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« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2009, 06:16:56 PM »

But besides all of this, the acts of homosexuality are perverse in and of themselves.  It is against nature; God did not create us this way.  However that said, when some conservative try to say that homosexuality is learned behavior- they are only partially correct.  It is fair to say that this perversion is part of that which we partake in as fallen persons who share in the corruption of this world.  Thus when someone says "God made me this way" we need to guide them that indeed they may have struggled with this as long as they can remember, but that all of us struggle with passions and things that are not what God intended for us in the beginning; neither for all eternity.
Becuase of the fall it seems that there is no one who is 100% pure hetero never having had an attraction to a person of the same gender. It seems that the problem of indulging these homosexual temptations.
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