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Ben
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« on: December 06, 2003, 09:11:52 PM »

Now I know the Orthodox Divine Liturgy has undergone no drastic and/or tragic reforms, as the Roman Catholic  liturgy has, but what exactly has changed over years? Or has anything changed?

Is it the same today s it was 100 years ago? 500 years ago? 1000 years ago? 1500 years ago?

Just wondering...

Thanks Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2003, 09:16:09 PM »

ben there is a thread discussing this issue already 2 threads down - Liturgical Reform. Tongue I started it!!
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2003, 09:32:58 PM »

lol whoops! better go check that out...hehehe.
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2003, 09:47:15 PM »

Read The Byzantine Liturgy by Hugh Wybrew to answer your questions fully. A link to buy it is on this page. The simple answer is yes, the Byzantine Liturgy has changed over time but very slowly. One hundred and 500 years ago it was the same as today, but it slowly evolved before that.
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« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2003, 05:31:10 PM »

BTW - Has anyone read the book "Living The Liturgy"? I saw it at St. Nicholas today and thought it looked interesting.
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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2003, 10:36:44 PM »

It's been awhile since I read it, but I remember thinking that it was very helpful.  I like Fr. Harakis--his books are very readable.  I may read it again, since I finished the book that I had talked to Father about reading during Nativity Fast.
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2003, 05:31:00 PM »

Another very helpful book both detailing the history of the Divine Liturgy and explaining much of the meaning behind its ceremony is the "The Byzantine Slav Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom: Its Origin and Evolution," by Father Casimr Kucharek, and published by Alleluia Press and available from Eighth Day Books.  Father Kucharek was a Ukrainian Catholic priest from Canada and wrote over 800 pages (!) about the history of the development of the Divine Liturgy.  Its a very scholarly work, well-documented, but quite readable and approachable.  Despite its length, I did not find it any more difficult to read and understand that the Hugh Wybrew book about the Divine Liturgy that is now so popular.  I'm sure the fact that Father Kucharek was an Eastern Rite Roman Catholic priest might make some Orthodox suspect about reading his book, but it really is quite good, and, as far I am can determine, has no axe to grind against the Orthodox Church at all.  In fact, Father Kucharek is fair enough to say this about infant communion:  "One of the primitive Eucharist practices which the Eastern Churches have not abandoned is that of imparting Commuhnion to infants.  Western authors seldom praise it, yet as in the primitive Church, the Christian East still communes its children. Unfortuantely the communionof infants was abandoned in the Western Church by the twelfth century."  Not too bad, huh?  Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2003, 01:44:03 AM »

It's known that the Divine Liturgies of the Eastern tradition, undoubtedly of Apostolic origin, suffered some changes as the result of the wars and political take overs. (The Muslim generated changes in the Byzantine liturgy for example).

Schisms and heresies caused isolation of the Oriental rites which developped separately, like the Assyrian Nestorians. Isolated after Ephesus, the words of the institution gradualy lost importance to them so they even removed them from the liturgy.

Now if you refer to more recent modernizations we can hope that the Byzantine liturgy will remain traditional, but changes can come here little by little as a result of contacts with Western denominations.

Of course those Eastern Christians in Communion with Rome are definately out of question. Many of them, and even their non-Catholic counterparts have corrupted their liturgies with repulsive characteristics of the Novus Ordo such as musical instruments, celebration outside the iconostas or facing the people, etc. This is particularly true about the Armenian Church (es).

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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2003, 04:51:35 AM »

Ordo such as musical instruments, celebration outside the iconostas or facing the people, etc. This is particularly true about the Armenian Church (es).

What do you mean by this? I have been at celebrations of the Liturgy in the Cathedral in Constantinople and it was performed within the curtain, there were no musical instruments, and as far as I could see it was a very traditional liturgy which resonated with centuries of use.

PT
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« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2003, 08:29:33 AM »

Ordo such as musical instruments, celebration outside the iconostas or facing the people, etc. This is particularly true about the Armenian Church (es).

What do you mean by this? I have been at celebrations of the Liturgy in the Cathedral in Constantinople and it was performed within the curtain, there were no musical instruments, and as far as I could see it was a very traditional liturgy which resonated with centuries of use.

PT

PT,
I think he's referring to the Armenian Catholics.
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« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2003, 09:17:45 AM »

Understood. This is the problem with so many groups in each of the old Orthodox motherlands

PT
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« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2003, 09:25:45 AM »

Schisms and heresies caused isolation of the Oriental rites which developped separately, like the Assyrian Nestorians. Isolated after Ephesus, the words of the institution gradualy lost importance to them so they even removed them from the liturgy.

I don't know how much I believe this, and would appreciate sources.  

I don't get it: what's the point of removing something like the institution narrative from a Liturgy due to its isolation after a Council if it was already in there?  I would think that something like that would be kept if it was already in the Anaphora.  People say that because the Assyrian Anaphora is so old, it lacks a narrative.  But they say the Roman Canon is also really old, and it has the narrative but no epiclesis.  I would think the epiclesis is a more recent addition to such prayers than the narrative.  Yet one has an epiclesis and no narrative (I think), and the other has a narrative and no epiclesis, and I think both the Roman Canon and the Anaphora of SS. Addai and Mari are supposed to be of similar age.  What gives?
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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2003, 11:51:06 AM »

Mexican,

That information is incorrect.  It is a fantasy explanation though up by Anglican and Latin liturgists who had no other explanation for the "missing" explicit institution narrative.  It was never there.  This is supported by the fact that the liturgy of the Apostolic Constitutions does not have one, nor does the Maronite/Syrian Anaphora of Peter III (Sharar).  

The institution narrative is implicit, at least that is how the Catholic Church deems it.

"We too, my Lord, your feeble, unworthy, and miserable servants who are gathered in your name and stand before you at this hour, and have received by tradition the example which is from you, while rejoicing, glorifying, exalting, and commemorating, perform this great, fearful, holy, life-giving, and divine Mystery of the passion, death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And may there come, O my Lord, your Holy Spirit, and may he rest upon this oblation of your servants. May he bless it and hallow it, and may it be for us, O my Lord, for the pardon of debts, the forgiveness of sins, the great hope of resurrection from the dead, and for new life in the kingdom of heaven with all who have been well-pleasing before you. And for all this great and marvelous dispensation towards us we will give thanks to you and praise you without ceasing in your church, which is saved by the precious blood of your Christ - with unclosed mouth and open face, (2) while lifting up praise, honor, confession, and worship to your living, holy, and life-giving name, now, always, and for ever and ever. Amen"(Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mar Mari).

On the otherhand, the Roman Canon has an implicit epiclesis, but not an explicit descending Epiclesis, the Byzantine Churches use.  The Roman Canon uses an implicit ascending Epiclesis.

"Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing.  Through Christ our Lord. Amen" (Roman Canon).

St. Nicholas Cabasilas recognized this and for the first thousand years no Eastern Church had a probelm witht the Roman Canon.  In fact some Slavs translated it and used it on the Feast of SS. Peter and Paul, manuscripts were found on Mt. Athos attesting this.  It is only later Byzantine chauvinism that caused some to say the Roman epiclesis was faulty and caused the Western Rite Orthodox to insert a Byzantine Epiclesis into the Roman Canon.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2003, 01:44:40 PM »

Dear friends.

Ehat more says has sense, also what Lance said but I still have some confusing doubts. I'll make a comparative here:

   RITE                          NARRATIVE                  EPICLESIS  
Armenian                          yes                               yes
Byzantine                         yes                               yes
Coptic                               yes                               yes
Syriac/Maronite                 yes                               yes
Latin                                  yes                               no
Assyrian                              no                               yes

The Epiclesis is as it was said before, more recent than the narrative which exists in the Gospels and must have been used since the beggining... so why does the Assyrian Church has the strong eastern-styled Epiclesis and not the narrative which is present in all the Eastern Rites and also in the Roman Canon?

I suppose that the rite more similar to the Assyrian, is the Syriac-Maronite. The Syriac rite does have the Epiclesis and the narrative. In fact all the rites do have the narrative and a certain kind of Epiclesis (the Latin Rite must have a more primitive Epiclesis). mor knows much more than me about his rite, but from what I read in their liturgy, the Epiclesis and the Narrative do not look like interpolations. (and part of the other texts that surround the Nartive are absent in the Assyrian canon).

My source is RIALP Enciclopedia which quotes "Dictionaire d'Archeologie Chretienne". It says that the Assyrian liturgy as known now comes from Patriarch Yeashavi in the 7th century. It mentions that the Nestorian Church was very isolated and while the other rites (all had an epiclesis) still in full communion kept the narrative.

Now, regarding the Latin liturgists, Ratzinger does not support this view but yours about the implicit narrative. I would say invisible narative i don't know how it can be implicit, i suppose this is said to "fix" the problem created by the Roman theology (the words of the consacration and not the Epiclesis confect the sacrament).

(Cardinal Ratzinger also stated that the words of the consacration were so sacred for the Assyrians that they were not put in the liturgical texts so that they were kept save from pagan hands or mouths. These statements are quite confusing)


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« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2003, 02:52:26 PM »

Mexican,

The Explicit Descending Epiclesis is of later origin than the Institution Narrative.  An Epiclesis such as the one used in the Anphora of Mar Addai and Mar Mari, which is not explicit, predates both and resembles what one finds in the Liturgy of the Apostolic Constitutions (the earliest Liturgy we have written material of), which also does not have the Instituion Narrative.

As to references, I would disregard anything about the Assyrian Liturgy written before the 1970's.  It was not until then serious unbiased scholarship was done on their Liturgy.

What ever Cardianl Ratzinger's opinion the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity issued a document recognizing the Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mar Mari as valid without the inserted Institution Narrative with the approval of both the Congregations of the Doctrine of the Faith and Eastern Churches.

Now at first I believed the implicit narrative was a way for the Latin Church to get around their own theology which demands an institution narrative, but after looking at the Assyrian Liturgy carefully I understand what they are saying.  The Assyrian Liturgy has several references about doing as Our Lord commanded in memory of His death and resurrection.  Below area a few examples:

"I waited confidently for the Lord. - The poor shall eat and be satisfied. The body of Christ and his precious blood are on the holy altar. In awe and love let us all draw near to him. And with the angels let us cry aloud unto him, Holy, holy, holy Lord God.

Let us lift up praise to your glorious Trinity always and for ever. May Christ, who was sacrificed for our salvation, and who commanded us to make a remembrance of his death, burial, and resurrection, accept this sacrifice from our hands in his grace and mercies for ever. Amen.

By your command, our Lord and our God. (2x) These glorious, holy, life-giving, and divine Mysteries are placed and arranged upon the absolving altar until the coming of our Lord the second time from heaven, to whom be glory always and for ever, amen.

Glory to you, O Finder of the lost. Glory to you, O Gatherer of the dispersed. Glory to you, who bring near the far off. Glory to you, who return the erring to the knowledge of the truth. Glory to you, my Lord, for you have called me, even feeble me, in your grace, and have brought me near unto you in your compassion, and have established me as a designated member in the great body of your holy catholic church, to offer before you this living, holy, and acceptable sacrifice, which is the memorial of the passion, death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, - through whom you were well-pleased and reconciled to forgive the sins of all men" (Various prayers from the Assyrian Liturgy).


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« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2003, 03:57:21 PM »

Thanks for the interesting and useful table.

What is the comparative information for the Eastern Orthodox rites supressed in the Middle Ages?

PT
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« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2003, 08:48:30 PM »

I suppose that the rite more similar to the Assyrian, is the Syriac-Maronite. The Syriac rite does have the Epiclesis and the narrative. In fact all the rites do have the narrative and a certain kind of Epiclesis (the Latin Rite must have a more primitive Epiclesis). mor knows much more than me about his rite, but from what I read in their liturgy, the Epiclesis and the Narrative do not look like interpolations. (and part of the other texts that surround the Nartive are absent in the Assyrian canon).

Dear Mexican,

This is not exactly true.  The Syriac Liturgy uses a number of changing Anaphorae: I think the official count is that there are somewhere around 70 different Eucharistic Prayers.  Not all of them have the Institution Narrative as it appears in the Gospels.  Some do.  Others only have "This is my body" but not "This is my blood", substituting something like "Take, drink, for the remission of sins and everlasting life".  Still others don't have even "This is my body", using a formula like I just mentioned for both bread and cup.  In the sense that the Narrative tells what happened, I suppose you could say all of our Anaphorae have this.  But the Latins would say that quite a few of ours do not have the "Words of Consecration".
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« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2003, 10:09:54 PM »

What do you mean by this? I have been at celebrations of the Liturgy in the Cathedral in Constantinople and it was performed within the curtain, there were no musical instruments, and as far as I could see it was a very traditional liturgy which resonated with centuries of use.

Well I suppose that if I attended a Catholic mass celebrated by a Vatican Cardinal in Rome it would be a very high and solemn liturgy, but if I attended a Roman mass celebrated in a Los Angeles Church it would be completely different.

I don't have any first hand testimony about the Armenian Church liturgy but a Bulgarian-Armenian tells me that in her parish they have a piano, and that the priest celebrates in front of the congregation, that women can read in the liturgy, and other things that are consistent wth what I saw in a broshure given to me by a friend of the Armenian (Catholic) Bishop of Latin America, when he came here to visit the Armenian families and celebrate the Badarak (I could not atend the service, unfortunately).

Other Armenians confirmed that smilar aspects of the Novus Ordo mass have been adopted in the AOC and the ACC.

The Armenians in Mexico are spread throughout the country and many suffered the homogeneization policies of the past regime. Both the Apostolic Armenians and the Catholic ones are officialy under the Armenian Catholic Exarchate of Latin America.



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« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2003, 04:19:56 AM »

So you are speaking about Armenian Catholics not Armenian Orthodox?

I can't imagine any Armenian Orthodox using the Novus Ordo?Huh

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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2003, 09:19:09 AM »

St. Basil Liturgy on Dec 31st.

Don't know if I will be able to stand the excitement  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2003, 12:44:40 PM »

So you are speaking about Armenian Catholics not Armenian Orthodox?

No no I didn't say they were "using the Novus Ordo" I meant that they have adopted some aspects that started in the Roman liturgy after Vatican II: priests facing the congregation, musical instruments and popular music in the liturgy, holding hands in some prayers, shortened litanies and prayers, etc.

By my comments I refered to the external aspects of the liturgy (music, rubrics, church architecture) and not about the Armenian liturgy itself because I do not know it.

Now if you ask about the Byzantine liturgy, my mother was in Slovakia about 5 years ago and she attended the Divine Liturgy in a ByzCath Cathedral and she told me that there were guitars.
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