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Author Topic: Transliterations of Orthodox prayers and troparia  (Read 3859 times) Average Rating: 0
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Maria
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« on: December 27, 2003, 03:53:03 PM »

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Re: Greek transliterations:

Does anyone here have the transliteration from the Greek (in Latin phonetics) for the Our Father, the Nicene Creed, Glory Be, and Great Doxology?

Also does anyone have the transliterated Greek for the following troparion?

O Theotokos and Virgin, rejoice, O Mary, Full of Grace; the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne the Savior of our souls.

As I only know a little Greek, these transliterations would be very helpful, so that I can pray with the parishioners who want to pray in Greek.

If anyone also has these prayers in IPA that would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Maria
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2003, 06:39:56 PM »

The easiest is to just learn the Greek letters.  They follow the "rules" almost always and is easy to pronouce from just seeing a word the first time unlike English.
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2003, 07:27:33 PM »

Thank you, but these are not only for me. Some of my friends understand  Greek less than I do.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2003, 09:02:22 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2003, 08:31:18 PM »

ok, I'll get to work on doing some transliterating then...
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2003, 01:46:12 AM »

note:  all "i"s get the ea sound as in beat, the "dh" is a cross between the english "d" and "th" but more like a d...except for the oo sound all vowels should be pronounced seperatly...o gets the "oh" sound


Glory to Father...  

Dhoxa Patri ke Yio ke Agio Nevmati, ke nin ke ahi, ke is toos eonas ton eonon.  Amin.  

Lord's prayer:
Pater imon, o en tis ooranis, ayiasthito to onoma Soo; eltheto i Vasilia Soo; yenithito to thelima soo os en oorano, ke epi tis yis; ton arton imon ton epioosion dhos imin simeron; ke afes imin ta ofilimata imon, os ke imis afiemen tis ofiletes imon; ke mi isenekis imas is pirasmon, alla rise imas apo too poniroo

Forgive me if there are any mistakes - God willing I get to the rest tomorrow
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2003, 02:35:20 AM »

Nektarios,

As a young convert who decided to learn greek, what was the easiest way for you to learn the greek alphabet?
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2003, 04:36:12 AM »

note:  all "i"s get the ea sound as in beat, the "dh" is a cross between the english "d" and "th" but more like a d...except for the oo sound all vowels should be pronounced seperatly...o gets the "oh" sound


Glory to Father...  

Dhoxa Patri ke Yio ke Agio Nevmati, ke nin ke ahi, ke is toos eonas ton eonon.  Amin.  

Lord's prayer:
Pater imon, o en tis ooranis, ayiasthito to onoma Soo; eltheto i Vasilia Soo; yenithito to thelima soo os en oorano, ke epi tis yis; ton arton imon ton epioosion dhos imin simeron; ke afes imin ta ofilimata imon, os ke imis afiemen tis ofiletes imon; ke mi isenekis imas is pirasmon, alla rise imas apo too poniroo

Forgive me if there are any mistakes - God willing I get to the rest tomorrow


Excellent. Thank you so very much.  You should study linguistics -- you're a natural. That's my major at the university which I attend.

I know less Greek than you do obviously, but I want to learn.
Did you study from tapes or from a real Greek professor?

Have you studied Spanish? Since my chrismation into Orthodoxy, I majored in Spanish as the phonetics are very similar to Greek. A lot of Greeks settled in Spain. We don't have any Greek courses offered locally.  Here are some IPA symbols used in international phonetics:

[a]  is found in the Latin 'Amen' (not the English long a)
[e]  is found in the word 'bread' or in 'rebate' but not quite the long a
[i ]  is found in the word 'beet'
[ o ] is found in the word 'oh'
 is found in the word 'boot'
[j ]  is found in the word 'yes'
[y]  is found in the French tu, a front high vowel with puckered lips

American English tends to diphthongize the [e] sound into [eI]
and also diphthongize the [ o ] sound into [ou] where the /u/ is actually an upside down omega, whatever that Greek character is called. Thankfully these diphthongs aren't present in the Greek. (Can't find it on my keypad yet with the alt + number sequence aka ASCII character codes.)

In Spanish the /d/ sound has two allophonic variations:  the 'eth' sound and [d]. Is the /d/ in doxa more like an 'eth' as in 'those'? In Spanish the verb 'poder' has that 'eth' sound.

Also is the /ahi]  a cross between /aji/ and [ahi] or more like /ajhi/?

Likewise is the 'agio' pronounced more like [a'jhio] ?  I was told that it has a difficult cross of a /j/ and an /h/ sound?

In phonetics, if a word is stressed, then use ['] and place it just before the stressed syllable. So the word 'Amen' would be transcribed [a'min] with the accent on the second syllable. Therefore 'eonas' would be transcribed [e'onas] wouldn't it? Incidentally caps aren't used in phonetics because they can represent other sounds. Don't worry I can transcribe it into correct IPA afterwards. But you did an excellent job.

In view of all this, and I'll use the [dh] combination until I can find that 'eth' symbol, does this sound correct, or am I way off:

['dhoxa pa'tri ke jio ke a'jhio 'nevmati, ke 'nin ke a'ji, ke is tus e'onas ton e'onon. a'min.]

I hope I didn't overwhelm you. I just hope this clarifies any difficulties we both might have. In the meantime I'll try to become more proficient with my keypad, unless someone knows the ASCII codes already.
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2003, 07:03:29 AM »

Transliteration is tricky business.

Nektarios, would you please post the Lord's Prayer and the "Rejoice, O' Virgin Mother of God" in Greek (ie. Greek characters)?  That, I can read.

Evkaristo.

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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2003, 03:35:33 PM »

Quote
['dhoxa pa'tri ke jio ke a'jhio 'nevmati, ke 'nin ke a'ji, ke is tus e'onas ton e'onon. a'min.]

Yeah that looks good.  Transliterations and writting the proper English pronunciation really isn't my thing, thus my transliterations aren't so great.  But that looks good.  

Quote
As a young convert who decided to learn greek, what was the easiest way for you to learn the greek alphabet?  

4-5 hours a day of church services in Greek at Saint Anthony's  Grin

To learn pronunciation and modern Greek I am using "Colloquial Greek a Complete Lanuage Course" by Niki Watts (comes with tapes to help learn pronuncaition).

For Church Greek (which IMO is much much easier to learn - but I have taken three years of Latin so the grammar wasn't that new to me...)  I am using "Essentials of New Testament Greek" BUT DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THE PRONUNCIATION IN THIS BOOK it is +¦-Ç++ -ä++-Ã  +¦+¦+¦+¦++++-Ã ...

Samer:
+á+¼-ä+¦-ü ++++-Ä++ ++ +¦++ -ä+++»-é ++-à -ü+¦+++++»-é, +¦+¦+¦+¦-â+++«-ä-ë -ä-î -î+++++++¼ -â++-à , +¦+++++¡-ä-ë ++ +¦+¦-â+¦+++¦+»+¦ -â++-à , +¦+¦+++++++«-ä-ë -ä-î +++¡+++++++¼ -â++-à , -Ä-é +¦++ ++-à -ü+¦++-Ä, +¦+¦+» +¦-Ç+» -ä+«-é +¦+«-é. +ñ-î++ +¼-ü-ä++++ ++++-Ä++ -ä-î++ +¦-Ç+¦++-ì-â+¦++++ +¦-î-é +++++»++ -â+«+++¦-ü++++, +¦+¦+» +¼-å+¦-é +++++»++ -ä+¼ ++-å+¦+¦+++«+++¦-ä+¦ ++++-Ä++, -Ä-é +¦+¦+» +++++¦+»-é +¼-å+»+¦+++¦++ -ä+++»-é ++-å+¦+¦+++¡-ä+¦+¦-é ++++-Ä++, +¦+¦+» +++« +¦+¦-â+¦+++¡+¦+¦++-é +++++¼-é +¦+¦-é -Ç+¦+¦-ü+¦-â++-î++, +¦+++++¼ -ü-ì-â+¦+¦ +++++¼-é +¦-Ç-î -ä++-ì -Ç++++++-ü++-ì.

+ÿ+¦++-ä-î+¦+¦ +á+¦-ü+++¡+++¦, -ç+¦+»-ü+¦ +¦+¦-ç+¦-ü+¦-ä-ë+++¡++++ +£+¦-ü+»+¦, ++ +Ü-ì-ü+¦++-é +++¦-ä+¼ -â++-à , +¦-ì+++++¦+++++¦++++ +ú-ì +¦++ +¦-à +++¦+¦+++», +¦+¦+¦ +¦-ì+++++¦+++++¡++++-é ++ +¦+¦-ü-Ç-î-é -ä++-é +¦+++¦+++»+¦-é +ú++-à , ++-ä+¦ +ú-ë-ä+«-ü+¦ +¡-ä+¦+++¦-â, -ä-ë++ -ê-à -ç-Ä++ ++++-Ä++
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2003, 08:53:07 PM »

Thanks Nektarios.

In my case, it took a recording of chants from Mount Athos, and one hour without the aid of an alphabet chart to learn the alphabet--as well as the modern Greek pronunciation of vowels and dipthongs.

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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2003, 09:02:57 PM »

That is the way to learn Samer!  I first learned from listening and then only later actaully learned froma book.
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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2003, 09:23:38 PM »

+ú-à +¦-ç-Ä-ü++-â++++ +++¦, +ô+¦-ü++++-ä+»-â-â+¦

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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2003, 09:28:48 PM »

Who / What is IPA?
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2003, 09:29:41 PM »


... I am using "Essentials of New Testament Greek" BUT DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THE PRONUNCIATION IN THIS BOOK it is +¦-Ç++ -ä++-Ã  +¦+¦+¦+¦++++-Ã ...


Can you explain this comment further? Ever since spending 6 semesters in Attic Greek (many years ago) and being TOTALLY confused by the pronounciation I heard there vs. that which I learned at home in my limited modern Greek OR  that which I heard in Church (as supposedly Koine, I say "supposed" because my professor lambasted the Church's use of modern Greek prounciation of Attic/Koine and I had to toe the line for the grade), I have remained confused.
I am a member of a Latin/Attic Greek forum now and the same arguments persist there; so I assumed the Profs where right and I (and all clerics I know) are wrong. Huh

As to an aid in general, I found the downloadable tutorials available below to have been a help when I was introducing my Scottish/German spouse to Greek.

http://catcode.com/

Demetri
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2003, 09:37:18 PM »

I have no idea what is more "correct" (nor am I really concerned with that) but if someone if intersted in learning Greek for the sake of understanding Church services or conversing in modern Greek then I'd go with the modern pronunciation and ignore the koine/attic pronunciation.
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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2003, 09:52:35 PM »

I have no idea what is more "correct" (nor am I really concerned with that) but if someone if intersted in learning Greek for the sake of understanding Church services or conversing in modern Greek then I'd go with the modern pronunciation and ignore the koine/attic pronunciation.  

...which is why I have given up speaking "Koine" at all and concentrate on reading and vocabulary differences with modern Greek.

I will soon meet a retired Greek professor who is a neighbor of my parish deacon and will renew my quest with him.

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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2003, 03:24:11 AM »

IPA stands for International Phonetic Alphabet.

It is based on the Latin alphabet with additional symbols added to represent all the sounds produced by humans using the different languages of the world. Each symbol has a one-on-one relationship with each unique sound. These sounds are called phonemes. Each phoneme, however, can have slight variations which are called allophones. When you say the word 'ladder' rapidly the /d/ sound almost sounds like a cross between the /t/  and the /d/ -- this is called a flap, which is an allophone of the phoneme [d].

When you go to college, try to enroll in a linguistics class. It's fascinating and very helpful in learning to pronounce or sing in different languages.

Hope this helps.
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2003, 07:18:36 AM »


... I am using "Essentials of New Testament Greek" BUT DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THE PRONUNCIATION IN THIS BOOK it is +¦-Ç++ -ä++-Ã  +¦+¦+¦+¦++++-Ã ...


Can you explain this comment further?

From this page http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/lessons/lesson1.asp

There is much talk about how Greek was actually pronounced and there isn't nor can there be a definite conclusion. Most grammar books complicate things by trying to determine subtle nuances that no one really knows. In this course we follow modern Greek pronunciation because it is easier than what scholars of Ancient Greece propose, and because it is alive and certain.

BTW, I cannot recommend this site highly enough. It gives a great introduction to learning Greek, plus has tons of parallel texts in Greek and English incuding the New Testament and excerpts from patristic texts.

http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/default.asp

Also, the same guy runs http://www.myriobiblos.gr/, also highly recommended.

John.
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2003, 07:33:11 AM »

Nektarios, would you please post the Lord's Prayer and the "Rejoice, O' Virgin Mother of God" in Greek (ie. Greek characters)?  That, I can read.

Samer, you might appreciate this.
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/greek/nectarios_prayers.htm

John.
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2003, 11:58:12 PM »

Thank you, Prodromos.  Bookmarked.

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