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Ben
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« on: December 06, 2003, 06:17:17 PM »

I have been wondering about this for quite a while, so I thought I'd bring it up here.

In Roman Catholicism, usually (until more recently) only the body of Christ is distrubted to the faithful, while his blood is drunk by the priest, and then thats it.

Many protestants objected to this saying communion must be given under both kinds, not just the bread, to the faithful.

Now I know in Orthodoxy both the body and blood of Christ is given to the people, but does it have to be that way? I mean in Catholicism one can consume either the body or blood of Christ and he or she has still fully recieved communion, is it the same in Orthodoxy?

Just wondering......
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2003, 06:24:52 PM »

I have been wondering about this for quite a while, so I thought I'd bring it up here.

In Roman Catholicism, usually (until more recently) only the body of Christ is distrubted to the faithful, while his blood is drunk by the priest, and then thats it.

Many protestants objected to this saying communion must be given under both kinds, not just the bread, to the faithful.

Now I know in Orthodoxy both the body and blood of Christ is given to the people, but does it have to be that way? I mean in Catholicism one can consume either the body or blood of Christ and he or she has still fully recieved communion, is it the same in Orthodoxy?

Just wondering......

NO! Did Jesus say at the Last Supper. "This is my Body..." and then "Oh! and by the way, if anybody is thirsty, this is my Blood"  Huh

NO! He said "TAKE EAT.... TAKE DRINK"

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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2003, 06:43:02 PM »

interesting..so if one just consumes his body, and NOT his blood, then they have not truly recieved communion?
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2003, 06:51:29 PM »

interesting..so if one just consumes his body, and NOT his blood, then they have not truly recieved communion?

To me, No.
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2003, 06:54:17 PM »

wow then untill 1970 Catholics never recieved communion? And even today, not all Catholic parish distribute both the body and blood of Christ, so what you are saying is that all of those millions of Catholics on sunday aren't recieving communion. Oy, I doubt many Orthodox priests and bishops would agree with you.
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2003, 07:00:35 PM »

wow then untill 1970 Catholics never recieved communion? And even today, not all Catholic parish distribute both the body and blood of Christ, so what you are saying is that all of those millions of Catholics on sunday aren't recieving communion. Oy, I doubt many Orthodox priests and bishops would agree with you.

Okay, let me clarify what I meant. As I said "I" do not believe that they are truly taking communion. But I also DO believe that SPIRITUALLY they ARE receiving the FULL GRACE of communion because they are doing what their CHURCH has told them is correct.

It's like when I was Baptized in my Baptist church when I was 13. I believe that that baptism had GRACE because I did not KNOW any better and was doing what I was told was correct. God would not hold that against me.
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2003, 07:01:35 PM »

interesting
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2003, 07:15:13 PM »

But I also DO believe that SPIRITUALLY they ARE receiving the FULL GRACE of communion because they are doing what their CHURCH has told them is correct.

It's like when I was Baptized in my Baptist church when I was 13. I believe that that baptism had GRACE because I did not KNOW any better and was doing what I was told was correct. God would not hold that against me.

Yeah, and I have a Rastafarian friend who really believes that Haile Selassie is God, I guess that makes it true.  Huh
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2003, 07:24:33 PM »

But I also DO believe that SPIRITUALLY they ARE receiving the FULL GRACE of communion because they are doing what their CHURCH has told them is correct.

It's like when I was Baptized in my Baptist church when I was 13. I believe that that baptism had GRACE because I did not KNOW any better and was doing what I was told was correct. God would not hold that against me.

Yeah, and I have a Rastafarian friend who really believes that Haile Selassie is God, I guess that makes it true.  Huh


EXACTLY my point. Why should anyone believe or care what my opinion is?
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2003, 07:28:34 PM »

I care what you're opinion is. I care about most people's opinions. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them, or yours with mine...but it certainly doesn't mean I think less of the person espousing the opinion. Unless, of course, you're a scientologist or something.  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2003, 08:11:29 PM »

what is being overlooked here is the point in the consecration when the bread and the wine are mingled - a piece of the Body is placed in the blood.  After the host is broken a piece is placed into the chalice with the prayer: May this mingling of the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ bring eternal life to us who receive it.  From this point onward, Each element is the full Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2003, 08:32:05 PM »

I think for medical reasons you can take one or the other alone. Alcoholics would probably have difficulty consuming the Blood. There are also people who have problems with bread, so arrangements could probably be made to only receive under the Blood. Other than those emergency reasons I would see no need for a communicant to not receive both.

In Christ,
Anthony

I have been wondering about this for quite a while, so I thought I'd bring it up here.

In Roman Catholicism, usually (until more recently) only the body of Christ is distrubted to the faithful, while his blood is drunk by the priest, and then thats it.

Many protestants objected to this saying communion must be given under both kinds, not just the bread, to the faithful.

Now I know in Orthodoxy both the body and blood of Christ is given to the people, but does it have to be that way? I mean in Catholicism one can consume either the body or blood of Christ and he or she has still fully recieved communion, is it the same in Orthodoxy?

Just wondering......
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2003, 09:00:02 PM »

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From this point onward, Each element is the full Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.  


So then it doesnt matter if a person just recieves the Body or the Blood since each element is the full Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ....right? One can just recieve the Body, for whatever reason, and fully recieve Christ:Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. If this is so then why does your church give communion under both kinds? I think you told me that your non-denominational group people (lol what do I call ya?!) give communion under both kinds, ALWAYS.
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2003, 09:14:16 PM »

BEN: When ever there is a Mass we always have communion in both species.  Why?  Because that is the way that Christ did it and the Early Church did it.  We also have communion services where the Eucharist is not consecrated, but rather the reserve is used from the Tabernacle.  At those services only the Body is used, but it is fully the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ.  Just because we CAN give it in just one species, does not mean that it is best to do so. There are even times when people are allowed to drink directly from the chalice, but for the most part we intincture.

You could save yourself a lot of trouble and say “your Community” since 1 - we are a community of believers - and 2 - because of one, the name of the Church is Community of the Crucified One.(CCO for short)
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2003, 09:22:33 PM »

Yes I understand that when Mass is celebrated both bread and wine are present and are consencrated by the priest, but I was just wondering why giving the faithful both the Body and Blood of Christ is so important.

Since each element is truly Christ: body, blood, soul, and divinity, I don't see why it would matter if just the body or just the blood was distributed to the faithful, and thats basically my question...in Orthodoxy does it matter?
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2003, 11:43:38 PM »

At Presanctified Liturgies, Eastern Orthodox receive the Precious Body of Christ only, yet it is still regarded as "Communion", and nothing less than that.  

As far as the commingling "making" each element the Body and the Blood at that moment, I don't think that is right, even by RC standards.  The epiclesis* (or words of consecration, if RC)* consecrates, and Christ is not "partially" consecrated until the commingling.  



*I don't want to pin this consecration down to a particular moment, but this way of expression is helpful, to me anyway, in getting my point across.
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2003, 01:19:24 AM »

Mor: oh it was not my intention to in down the moments of anything, just to say that the commingling makes each - wholly the BBSD of Christ. Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2003, 04:00:12 PM »

Dear Br. Max,

I understand, but I don't understand.  I must admit still finding your terminology "commingling makes each - wholly the BBSD of Christ" troubling.  If all you mean by it is that since the Body is now mingled with the Blood, the symbolism of the Body and Blood being one inseparable unity is now complete or something to that effect, then it's OK, but what you write can be taken the wrong way and as saying that prior to the commingling, it is not really all one (and that is how I'm reading it, albeit unintentionally).
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2003, 05:54:46 PM »

Mor: I see what you are saying.  The only point I am trying to make is that with commingling, communion can be distributed in one species without it being said that the "blood" was held back from the people.  The chalice - YES, but not the blood.  

(I forget sometimes to pick very carefully the words used when typing.  I tend to think of this as an oral conversation more than a written one.)
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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2003, 04:51:26 AM »

I think for medical reasons you can take one or the other alone. Alcoholics would probably have difficulty consuming the Blood. There are also people who have problems with bread, so arrangements could probably be made to only receive under the Blood. Other than those emergency reasons I would see no need for a communicant to not receive both.

Tony, it is no longer bread and wine but the body and blood of Christ, so any supposed health issues would not be issues at all. There have been times at Divine Liturgy where only a few people have had communion and so there has been a more than reasonable amount for the priest to consume afterwards. I have never seen a priest come out suffering the effects of quaffing a large glass of wine.

(Linus, I should've remembered this in the transubstantiation thread Tongue)

I cannot say the same for what happens in the Heterodox churches though.

Regarding the former RC practice of giving the laity only the body and not the blood (though the whole of Christ is present in both species), was it not because of the risk of spilling Christ's precious blood that this became the norm?

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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2003, 05:16:51 AM »

Mor: I see what you are saying.  The only point I am trying to make is that with commingling, communion can be distributed in one species without it being said that the "blood" was held back from the people.  The chalice - YES, but not the blood.  

I don't know if it is the normal practice but when I was in Constantinople for the enthronement of the Armenian Patriarch Mesrob II I received the body dipped in the blood at the same time. Intinction isn't it?

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« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2003, 02:07:58 PM »

Dear Peter,

I think the Armenians regularly commune by intinction.
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« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2003, 03:15:30 PM »

I think this is needless disputation with our Roman Catholic friends here.  Both the East and the West over the years developed a concern and caution about distributing the Blood of Christ to the faithful, lest it be spilled and trodden underfoot.  The solution of the Latin speaking Church was to withhold the Chalice from the Laity (out of REVERENCE for concern of spilling the Blood of Christ). The solution of the Greek speaking Church was to ALSO withdraw the Chalice from the laity (for the SAME reason: concern over spilling the Blood of Christ).  The East adopted intinction instead.  It is interesting to me that both groups put the Holy Eucharist directly in the mouths of all communicants with the utmost caution, fear and reverence. I would not judge the Roman Catholics too harshly in this matter.
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« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2003, 03:28:32 PM »

It is interesting however that the wine was not withdrawn completely from the laity until the same period that baptism was no longer normally by immersion.

From the period when the chalice began to be withdrawn to the 13/14th centuries communion was given by intinction so that the laity could still receive the body and blood.

The question might reasonably be asked what motive was present in the 13th/14th centuries to cause the cessation of both the normal means of baptism and the normal means of recieving communion.

I read that even in the 16th century some priests were giving communion under both kinds but being threatened with excommunication the practice ceased completely.

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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2003, 04:10:03 PM »

Peter,
What makes you think baptism by pouring wasn't used earlier?
Why do you link it with communion in one kind?
Interestingly, Chadwick's The Early Church has a bit about that-about how in the West pouring was used very early-though that's usually looked down upon, even by those Orthodox who are our intellectual superiors.

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« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2003, 04:21:02 PM »

Hiya

The Catholic Encycolpaedia, and a whole load of other materials on the Baptism thread produced by Western Christians state that immersion was absolutely the norm throughout the West until after the schism and that pouring was only used in extremis.

I was going by that information.

The books I was reading and the Catholic Encyclopaedia say that baptism by pouring, which had only been used in extremis, became the norm in the 13th/14th centuries.

It was at this time that communion only in the bread became the rule. Previously to preserve the chalice communion had been by intinction. I genuinely wonder why the wine was removed entirely and baptism by immersion ceased at the same period.

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« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2003, 05:39:14 PM »

Mor Ephrem posted
Quote
At Presanctified Liturgies, Eastern Orthodox receive the Precious Body of Christ only, yet it is still regarded as "Communion", and nothing less than that.  

I believe you are mistaken here, The presanctified gifts are prepared by placing the blood on the body at the liturgy before. The body and blood are then added to wine and warm water during the presantified litugy thus making it possible to commune in the regular way.
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« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2003, 08:31:11 PM »

Thanks, Joseph.  How exactly is the Blood placed on the Body?
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« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2003, 09:22:52 PM »

Joseph,

Yes and no.  What you describe is the general practice but liturgical scholars are in agreement the original way was simply to reserve the Holy Lamb without intincting it.

Phil,

When the Holy Lamb is being prepared for reservation a few drops of the Holy Blood are dropped or traced onto the Holy Lamb with the spoon.

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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2003, 09:31:07 PM »

John,

The accidents of the bread and wine remain along with their respective properties.  The gluten in the wheat will still harm celiac disease sufferers, the alcohol in the wine could be trouble for alcoholics and cause intoxication in sufficient amounts.  Catholic priests suffering from alcoholism are given permission to consecrate mustum aka new wine aka unpasteurized grape juice.  I do not know if the same allowance is made in the Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2003, 11:10:37 PM »

Mor Ephrem asked
Quote
How exactly is the Blood placed on the Body?  

Additional lambs are prepared and stack with the lamb being used for the liturgy. After all these lambs, which are in reality one lamb, are elevated at the "holy are for the holy" the ones that will be used for the presanctified gifts have the blood placed on them by using the spoon to take some of the blood out of the chalice and placed the lamb. The presanctified lambs are either placed on a different diskos or in a special box.

Deacon Lance
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What you describe is the general practice but liturgical scholars are in agreement the original way was simply to reserve the Holy Lamb without intincting it.

This is not the current practice among the Eastern Orthodox and that is what my post was in reference to. There are many liturgucal practices that have changed over the years and this is one of those that we know changed because there is much written on why it should be changed.


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« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2003, 07:06:10 AM »

John,

The accidents of the bread and wine remain along with their respective properties.  The gluten in the wheat will still harm celiac disease sufferers, the alcohol in the wine could be trouble for alcoholics and cause intoxication in sufficient amounts.  Catholic priests suffering from alcoholism are given permission to consecrate mustum aka new wine aka unpasteurized grape juice.  I do not know if the same allowance is made in the Orthodox Church.

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Fr. Lance,
do please investigate this issue more deeply yourself. I don't want this to degenerate into an argument over whether or not there is grace in the Roman Catholic sacraments, but I assure you that what you stated above is not true of the gifts in Orthodox communion.

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« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2003, 08:16:47 AM »

Slava Isusu Christu!

In Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches a person can pre-arrange to receive just the Body or just the Blood for medical reasons.  This is a pastoral arrangement;  the priest always has the right to refuse the request, however since he is the guardian of the Mystery.  In the OCA Diocese of Alaska under His Grace Innocent priests who where alcoholic were allowed to use grape juice.  But I believe that Vladyka Nikolai, our current Hierarch, would condemn such an action.  All of the Orthodox manuals I have read say that only fermented red wine can be used as proper matter Wink for the Divine Liturgy.  Any thing else would be a matter of extreme economy.  The Body and Blood are not divided in Essence so receiving in either kind one will receive the Whole.
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« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2003, 11:37:34 PM »

John,

The accidents of the bread and wine remain along with their respective properties.  The gluten in the wheat will still harm celiac disease sufferers, the alcohol in the wine could be trouble for alcoholics and cause intoxication in sufficient amounts.  Catholic priests suffering from alcoholism are given permission to consecrate mustum aka new wine aka unpasteurized grape juice.  I do not know if the same allowance is made in the Orthodox Church.

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Fr. Lance,
do please investigate this issue more deeply yourself. I don't want this to degenerate into an argument over whether or not there is grace in the Roman Catholic sacraments, but I assure you that what you stated above is not true of the gifts in Orthodox communion.

John.

We have a priest who was a recovered alcoholic before he was ordained.  He says mass EVERY day (Twice a day when required) and uses regular alter wine (we use Hammer brand) and he has never suffered any ill effects from consuming the Eucharist.

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« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2003, 04:56:32 AM »

Thanks Br. Max.

So it would seem that this is an issue of faith more than anything else. I remember reading that for those who have no faith, the bread and wine remain simply bread and wine. I wish I could remember where I read this now.

John.
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2003, 06:03:51 AM »

Even when I was a Plymouth Brethren and we had a couple of young haemophilicas who were infected with AIDS we had only one cup, trusting that God would take care of any issues.

PT
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« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2003, 07:07:38 AM »

Wow , that just brought back a memory for me - a young Priest who was training Eucharistic Ministers saying, when asked ,that he was never worried about the possibility of transmission of infections from the Chalice - his comment was that he , personally believed it was an act of faith .

The question was raised with him because we had been discussing how to give the Most Precious Blood from the Chalice  to the lay faithful. Some of the trainees were worried about having to hold the Chalice and use a Purificator at the same time.

At that time I was also involved with 2 young Haemophiliacs who had AIDS and Hep C - one of them never Received from the Chalice - the other did - they were  identical twins .
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« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2003, 10:51:59 AM »

I would choose to not drink from the chalice if I were sick, opting rather to intincure, but thats a matter of couresy not of faith.  I mean who wants to go behind some hacking coughing snot covered sickie and drink from the same cup Huh thats just nasty.
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« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2003, 11:13:19 AM »

I would choose to not drink from the chalice if I were sick, opting rather to intincure, but thats a matter of couresy not of faith.  

I appreciate the point about someone withdrawing themselves from the cup.

In my Church we receive the blood using a spoon rather than drinking directly from the chalice.

PT
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« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2003, 11:25:06 AM »

I agree with you. I think however that a person might feel that they should withdraw from the cup if they were feeling and looking really rough, although in that case they might be better off in bed and asking the priest to visit and pray.

In the Coptic Orthodox a spoon is used for the blood, not out of any fear of contamination but because it is a very ancient tradition that it be so. I guess partly to handle the possibility of the chalice being spilled.

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« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2003, 01:28:59 PM »

Vicki,

It is not the Body and Blood I worry about but the vessels.  In the Byzantine tradition this is not much of a problem, but as Br. Max relates in the Latin tradition saliva on the outside of the chalice could transmit illness.  All that said, as a deacon I consume the remaining Holy Gifts and have never gotten sick or worried about it believing much like you.  However, I would noy go so far as to say there is no possibility of getting sick from a contaminated lention or vessel.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2003, 09:33:54 PM »

Vicki, you are right about priests not getting sick from consuming the Eucharist, even though they have to consume whatever is left over.  My first priest told me once that in the 7 years he'd been a priest, he'd never gotten sick from it.  

I've also heard many priests say that there is no problem with alcoholics taking communion, even with the wine.  It's never made them go back to drinking.  Now, they'll stay away from drinking the wine afterwards.  Personally, I have a sneaking suspicion that most priests wouldn't allow you to separate the Body and the Blood.  My priest is very picky about everyone consuming from the chalice and he mixes the Body and Blood together.  The priests and deacons are the only ones that get the two elements separately because they take it prior to the priest putting the bread into the wine that is already in the chalice.  Of course, some of the bread is saved for giving communion to the sick who couldn't be there and mixed with wine later.
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