Topic: Jordanville Prayer Book vs Holy Transfiguration Prayer Book

[bkovacs]

Which prayer book is nicer. Do they have any differences between the two.

[SakranMM]

I like the HTM prayerbook.  I may be biased since I am from the Antiochian tradition.  I think the biggest reason I like it is because the daily prayers are in shorter, manageable portions, which may be more conducive to the person who is busy/has family to care for, etc...  The Jordanville has a larger selection of daily prayers, but sometimes it seems like shorter and simpler is the order of the day.  Also, the pre-communion prayers.  Jordanville lumps the entire canon and prayers into one service, which, if you attend Vespers/Vigil, and then say evening prayers before bed, this can be quite a lot at once for the average person.  HTM breaks up the prayers w/canon at compline the night before, and the prayers the morning of the liturgy. 

Bottom line - HTM just seems like a more manageable book in terms of dividing up time for daily prayers than the Jordanville.  But to each his own; I suppose many here would disagree with me, and that's fine.  I use the Jordanville from time to time as well, but I find myself going back to the HTM more often than not.

[Douglas]

I have both but in truth I seldom use either. I have to admit to not caring for the expressions in the HTM prayer book as compared with the Jordanville prayer book (simply my preference). When I do use them, I pick and choose which prayers I will pray. I never (absolutely NEVER) let the prayer book dictate how many prayers must be prayed in the mornings, evenings or before communion. The book was made for me, not me for the book. And that said, I find them both archaic and long-winded so I generally choose the Antiochian prayer book... particularly the one produced for the Fellowship of St Philip. It actually takes the Jordanville prayers (morning and evening) and breaks them into bight-size pieces, spreading them over the course of the entire week as opposed to placing them all in one section for one morning or one evening. Yes... I "could" pick and choose (as I have done) which ones to pray for Monday let's say, but it's so much easier when it's done for me by the Fellowship prayer book. Again... this is my preference... not necessarily right for anyone else but it works for me.

[Sakeneko]

I have both of these prayer books, but don't regularly use either one of them.  I learned to pray as an Orthodox Christian using the previous edition of the Jordanville prayer book, and also used the Holy Transfiguration Monastery prayer book when praying with the man I was dating for a few months after my baptism.   (He was in HOCNA, the traditionalist jurisdiction that HTM also belongs to.)  I came into Orthodox Christianity via the Russian Orthodox Church, so I found I preferred the Russian ways of doing things to the Byzantine, but this is purely a matter of personal preference.  Both prayer books can be used to the user's benefit.

A few months after my baptism and chrismation, however, I acquired a copy of the Old Believer's prayer book produced in Erie, Pennsylvania by the Old Believer's group that is in ROCOR.  I found I preferred it to either of the previous prayer books, and with my priest's blessing started using it at home.  I still do, all these years later.

[Nazarene]

Which prayer book is nicer. Do they have any differences between the two.

The obvious difference is that Jordanville follows Slavic tradition while HTM follows Greek tradition. Otherwise here's two blog reviews which gives details of each:

Of Prayer Books - I (the Jordanville Prayer Book)

While not necessarily the first, one of the recognized early classic prayer books is the Prayer Book of Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville. This volume includes the complete morning and evening ‘personal’ prayers, as well as excerpts from Matins, Vespers, the people’s text of the Divine Liturgy, and Troparia for each day of the week and all the important Feast Days of the Church Year. In addition, Akathists and Canons to our Lord, the Theotokos, and the complete preparatory prayers and Canon for Holy Communion and Thanksgiving After Holy Communion are included.

The older editions of this highly influential collection featured a sturdy hard cover with etched decoration. I've had my copy since the 1970s and though the pages have yellowed, it has held up quite nicely. Somewhere along the way the text of the prayers were tweaked and the original translation of the psalms was replaced with the Psalter According to the Seventy from Holy Transfiguration Monastery. The newer edition also includes a section on Christian living and etiquette in Church. The newer edition's cover is somewhat fancier and the page edges are gilded.

The Jordanville Prayer Book uses classical English (Thee, thou, shalt, etc.), which may not suit everyone, but certain traditional phrasings familiar to almost everyone in the English-speaking Orthodox and Greek Catholic world originate from this volume. For those wishing to check it out before ordering, the original text is fully available online at two locations, Myriobiblos in Greece and St Mary of Egypt parish in Atlanta.

http://byzantineramblings.blogspot.com/2009/05/of-prayer-books-i.html

Of Prayer Books - III (Holy Tranfiguration's Prayer Book)

The Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians of Holy Transfiguration Monastery demands attention from anyone serious about following a rule of prayer. This prayer book provides a more liturgical rule that still works on a personal (individual) level. The Morning Prayer section is somewhat abbreviated in comparison to the Jordanville and Sophia Press books. However, like the Jordanville volume, this book includes excerpts from Orthros and Vespers, and Troparia, Theotokia and Kontakia for all the major Feast Days. Instead of the Evening Prayers, Small Compline is provided along with seven Canons and Akathists, allowing each evening to be concluded with a particular spiritual emphasis. For those who might find the nightly repetition of the bedtime prayers difficult, the option of Compline with a Canon or Akathist provides variety within a stable framework.

The text is in classical English. Of special note is that the troparia typically can be chanted easily according to the original Greek melodies. For example, if you know the melodies of the Paraklesis (Supplicatory Canon) to the Theotokos chanted every August, you can chant the HTM texts with no difficulty. The troparia of a given ode all follow the same pattern.

This particular emphasis of the monks’ work is most praiseworthy. Generally, translation of Eastern hymns seek to get the meaning across without reference to the poetic quality inherent in all Byzantine worship. The monks at Holy Transfiguration, however, often spend years refining the phrasing and clarity of the translation before publishing. This guarantees that their work will flow easily whether recited or chanted.

While it is taking them decades to complete translations and publication of the entire corpus of Byzantine liturgical books, the work to date indicate that Holy Transfiguration’s translations will endure as standards against which all others will be measured.

Like all of Holy Transfiguration’s publications, the Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians is cloth-bound and beautifully printed on quality paper of proven durability. The text is in black with rubrics and instructions in red with icons periodically gracing the text. This book is made to last and is a worthy addition to your prayer shelf library.

http://byzantineramblings.blogspot.com/2009/05/of-prayer-books-iii-holy.html

[scamandrius]

HTM all the way.  Save for some choppy language here and there and some bad grammar (builded for built) it is easily the best comprehensive prayer book for Orthodox Christians that can be used in both the home and the church.  And considering that a lot of churches (mostly Greek and Antiochian) use HTM for their translations in services, this prayerbook's usefulness becomes clear.

[Iconodule]

some bad grammar (builded for built)

"Builded" is actually an okay variant. You'll find it in many English classics, such as the King James Bible.

[Orthodox Swamp Thing]

I personally like the Jordanville Prayer Book. I love the Morning & Evening prayers and the Akaththist prayers to Christ & Theotokos. However, it can get long with the morning prayers so I do have the Antiochian pocket prayer book that I do use and I also try to incorporate prayers from the Antiochian prayer book and prayers from My Daily Orthodox Prayer Book into my morning & Evening prayer time.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Welcome to the forum, Orthodox Swamp Thing!

[Christophoros]

The Boston prayerbook is nice if you also read The Prologue and Holy Scripture following morning prayer, since it is somewhat shorter than Jordanville's. There are other complete prayerbooks to choose from, by the way:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Prayer_book

Also, on a related note, here is a good article on the history of the Russian form of morning and evening prayers:

http://frsergei.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/morning-and-evening-prayer-rules-in-the-russian-orthodox-tradition/

[Christophoros]

Here are two forms of morning and evening prayer used in the Church of Greece. As you can see, Holy Transfiguration Monastery's edition is slightly abbreviated.

[Alveus Lacuna]

I prefer the Jordanville prayer book.

[Christophoros]

If you like the Jordanville prayer book but prefer modern English, the edition produced by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA is very comparable:

http://uocofusa.org/servicebooks.html

[Orthodox Swamp Thing]

I also like this prayer book as well: A Manual of Orthodox Prayers and My Daily Orthodox Prayer Book. They both have a lot of prayers that the Jordanville doesn't have.

[xuxana]

i've been using jordanville for weeks now and i'm used to it.  however, all the morning prayers lumped together takes me exatcly 30 minutes to complete. thats a lot of prayers and then i have to do matins? wow.

the language is archaic but i don't mind it.  i'm very curious about the ukranian service book. the binding looks beautiful and it does look like a sturdy copy.

[Orthodox Swamp Thing]

I have settled on the Manual for Eastern Orthodox Prayers thats put out by SVS Press. It's a good balance of the Jordanville and the Antiochian prayerbook. However, I have added prayers that I like from various other prayer books into the back that I say at either morning or evening..... I also like how it has the scripture reading for the day built right into the morning prayers......

[Orthodox11]

HTM

[Punch]

I have both but use neither.  My standard prayer book is the Old Orthodox Prayer Book.

[Iconodule]

I have settled on the Manual for Eastern Orthodox Prayers thats put out by SVS Press. It's a good balance of the Jordanville and the Antiochian prayerbook. However, I have added prayers that I like from various other prayer books into the back that I say at either morning or evening..... I also like how it has the scripture reading for the day built right into the morning prayers......

Is this still in print? I've looked all over and I can't find it for sale anywhere (except on Amazon where there are some expensive used copies).

[Orthodox Swamp Thing]

It is... My wife got this for me at St. Spiridons Cathedral in Seattle and that was a year ago so it's still gotta be in print.. you can get it here: http://www.cokesbury.com/forms/ProductDetail.aspx?vsl=0001&pid=519025
and yes I had to use Google Books to find where it can be purchased.....

On another note I also have prayers from the Anitochian tradition as well... I like this prayer book due to it's a happy medium between the Jordanville and the anitochian....

Oh just an FYI... this is a United Methodist website... Don't ask me why they have this... but they do.......

[KevinOrr]

Oh just an FYI... this is a United Methodist website... Don't ask me why they have this... but they do.......

As a United Methodist, not too surprised, but also glad to see it there. Also noted a book by Thomas Oden that appeared on the link to the prayer book information called The Rebirth of Orthodoxy. The description of that book was naming me.

Thanks for sharing the link.

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

i've been using jordanville for weeks now and i'm used to it.  however, all the morning prayers lumped together takes me exatcly 30 minutes to complete. thats a lot of prayers and then i have to do matins? wow.

the language is archaic but i don't mind it.  i'm very curious about the ukranian service book. the binding looks beautiful and it does look like a sturdy copy.

Not unless you are a monastic. Doing Matins generally replaces Morning prayers for laity.

[Hermogenes]

I have both of these prayer books, but don't regularly use either one of them.  I learned to pray as an Orthodox Christian using the previous edition of the Jordanville prayer book, and also used the Holy Transfiguration Monastery prayer book when praying with the man I was dating for a few months after my baptism.   (He was in HOCNA, the traditionalist jurisdiction that HTM also belongs to.)  I came into Orthodox Christianity via the Russian Orthodox Church, so I found I preferred the Russian ways of doing things to the Byzantine, but this is purely a matter of personal preference.  Both prayer books can be used to the user's benefit.

A few months after my baptism and chrismation, however, I acquired a copy of the Old Believer's prayer book produced in Erie, Pennsylvania by the Old Believer's group that is in ROCOR.  I found I preferred it to either of the previous prayer books, and with my priest's blessing started using it at home.  I still do, all these years later.

I'd probably go with Jordanville, of these two. But I also prefer the Old Believer's book. For one thing, I like the structure of the morning and evening prayers better--they are more like the liturgies of the hours, with Trisagion, Psalms, Doxology, Creed, followed by some commemorations and the possibility of a canon or an akathist. I've always liked having the Psalms at the heart of any formal prayer.

The problem with using the Old Believer book for someone new to Orthodoxy is that they won't learn the prayers everyone else knows, or they won't learn them in the form everyone else knows them. How much that matters is up to the individual, but it's at least something to be aware of. But there's so little uniformity of usage now anyway, it would be more of an issue for the sections like the liturgies of the hours that we sometimes pray together. (The way Psalm 140/141 is done during Vespers, for instance, is quite different.)

Here's a question I've been thinking about for several years: The Roman Catholics have a four-volume set (breviary) for praying the liturgy of the hours. One of the biggest stumbling blocks to learning the liturgy (I'm speaking of the hours here) is the sheer number of resources a person has to have available. Would there be any value in attempting something similar to what the Catholics have had for centuries?

[Orthodox11]

One of the biggest stumbling blocks to learning the liturgy (I'm speaking of the hours here) is the sheer number of resources a person has to have available. Would there be any value in attempting something similar to what the Catholics have had for centuries?

For the Weekday and Saturday Midnight Office, 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th Hours, the Typika, and the Great and Small Compline (add to that the Middle Compline if you're following the Old Rite), all you need is a copy of the Horologion. So three volumes less than the Catholics

Only Matins and Vespers require a copy of the Paraklitiki and Minaion, which is when things begin getting complicated and expensive.

The HTM edition of the Great Horologion is by far the most complete English edition out there. The Old Believer Horologion is nice, and also contains the Troparia and Kontakia for every day, but lacks all the canons, akathists, etc. that you will find in the HTM version. The Jordanville Horologion is less expensive than the HTM, but contains only the Troparia and Kontakia for major feasts, which makes it unsuitable for everyday use. It does, however, contain the collection of Evening Prayers found in most prayer books, which is useful for those who follow that more recent Russian practice.

[Hermogenes]

One of the biggest stumbling blocks to learning the liturgy (I'm speaking of the hours here) is the sheer number of resources a person has to have available. Would there be any value in attempting something similar to what the Catholics have had for centuries?

For the Weekday and Saturday Midnight Office, 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th Hours, the Typika, and the Great and Small Compline (add to that the Middle Compline if you're following the Old Rite), all you need is a copy of the Horologion. So three volumes less than the Catholics

Only Matins and Vespers require a copy of the Paraklitiki and Minaion, which is when things begin getting complicated and expensive.

The HTM edition of the Great Horologion is by far the most complete English edition out there. The Old Believer Horologion is nice, and also contains the Troparia and Kontakia for every day, but lacks all the canons, akathists, etc. that you will find in the HTM version. The Jordanville Horologion is less expensive than the HTM, but contains only the Troparia and Kontakia for major feasts, which makes it unsuitable for everyday use. It does, however, contain the collection of Evening Prayers found in most prayer books, which is useful for those who follow that more recent Russian practice.

Well, yes, exactly. The Old Rite and St. Tikhon's Horologia are also useful--the latter, for those of us in the OCA, because it shows how one of our most important monastic communities does things. The little daily hours also can be said using a Psalter (even that is only needed during Lent) and pocket prayer book, such as the one published by St. Tikhon's Press entitled "The Hours and the Typika." (It gives troparia and kontakia that can be used in lieu of the Propers.)

But it is Matins and Vespers in particular that I would like to be able to do more efficiently. Besides the kathismata of Psalms, the stichera and canons form a very rich body of prayer. These two offices are much more time-consuming, of course, but they more than repay the effort. I've been pondering for awhile how this could be organized. The largest of the Catholic volumes (for Pascha, as one would guess) has around 2,200 pages and is still a very manageable and portable book. We might end up with more than four volumes, but I keep thinking how useful it would be, a really wonderful possibility to enrich my prayer life, to have something like this.

Does anyone think there'd be any interest? (Outside of seminarians and millenarians, I mean! LOL)

[Subdeacon Michael]

If you like the Jordanville prayer book but prefer modern English, the edition produced by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA is very comparable:

http://uocofusa.org/servicebooks.html

I have this and use it occasionally.  My preference would be for HTM but it is very much of the Greek tradition, which causes minor but not insurmountable difficulties.

The Jordanville translations are execrable!  I am grateful for all of the work that they have done, and we are certainly better off for it, but I really think their products would have benefitted greatly from being edited by somebody whose first language was English and who had a good command of the language.

M

[Hermogenes]

If you like the Jordanville prayer book but prefer modern English, the edition produced by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA is very comparable:

http://uocofusa.org/servicebooks.html

I have this and use it occasionally.  My preference would be for HTM but it is very much of the Greek tradition, which causes minor but not insurmountable difficulties.

The Jordanville translations are execrable!  I am grateful for all of the work that they have done, and we are certainly better off for it, but I really think their products would have benefitted greatly from being edited by somebody whose first language was English and who had a good command of the language.

M

Yes, and Jordanville, SVP, and STS all suffer from really bad typos in many of their publications. The books themselves are mostly very well made, so it's a real shame to have them marred by things like bad misspellings and extra punctuation.

[Hinterlander]

Anyone know why the HTM uses the word "heavens" in the Lord's Prayer?

[Romaios]

Anyone know why the HTM uses the word "heavens" in the Lord's Prayer?

To literally translate the Greek: Pater hemon ho en tois ouranois, which is a faithful translation of what must have been the Semitic original: Avinu shebashamayim/Abun d'bashmaya. In these languages, "heaven" is a plural only noun - it has no singular. So is water - it's always "waters", even if you ask for a glass of it: kos mayim.   

[Hinterlander]

Anyone know why the HTM uses the word "heavens" in the Lord's Prayer?

To literally translate the Greek: Pater hemon ho en tois ouranois, which is a faithful translation of what must have been the Semitic original: Avinu shebashamayim/Abun d'bashmaya. In these languages, "heaven" is a plural only noun - it has no singular. So is water - it's always "waters", even if you ask for a glass of it: kos mayim.   

Thanks for the feedback.  Now another question: Is the second "heaven" in the Lords Prayer a different word? Is that why it is singular in the HTM translation?

[Romaios]

Thanks for the feedback.  Now another question: Is the second "heaven" in the Lords Prayer a different word? Is that why it is singular in the HTM translation?

If you mean "thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven", it's the same word (ouranos), only this time in Greek it appears in the singular: genetheto to thelema sou hos en ourano kai epi tes ges. There's probably no subtle metaphysical distinction behind it. It's the same content being filtered through different languages. More modern translations just translate 'heaven' everywhere.   

[Hinterlander]

Thanks for the feedback.  Now another question: Is the second "heaven" in the Lords Prayer a different word? Is that why it is singular in the HTM translation?

If you mean "thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven", it's the same word (ouranos), only this time in Greek it appears in the singular: genetheto to thelema sou hos en ourano kai epi tes ges. There's probably no subtle metaphysical distinction behind it. It's the same content being filtered through different languages. More modern translations just translate 'heaven' everywhere.   

Thanks a lot for the help.  I use the HTM everyday and this question pops up in the back of my mind every morning.  Hopefully that rambling thought will now be put to rest.

God bless.

[Iconodule]

Anyone know why the HTM uses the word "heavens" in the Lord's Prayer?

Because the Greek gives the plural and we all know that Greek is a magical talismanic language rendering literal translation necessary to salvation.

[brastaseptim]

I use Jordanville- but that's because it's all I could afford. If I could find a Byzantine one within an affordable price range, I would- I'm Byzantine Catholic, not Russian. But it stands me in good stead- even if I miss my festal menaion  and have to make do with printing out everything I need for the Twelve feasts and Great Lent and Pascha.

[Arachne]

I use Jordanville- but that's because it's all I could afford. If I could find a Byzantine one within an affordable price range, I would- I'm Byzantine Catholic, not Russian. But it stands me in good stead- even if I miss my festal menaion  and have to make do with printing out everything I need for the Twelve feasts and Great Lent and Pascha.

Would this be more helpful? It still needs printing, but at least it would be just the once.

[brastaseptim]

I use Jordanville- but that's because it's all I could afford. If I could find a Byzantine one within an affordable price range, I would- I'm Byzantine Catholic, not Russian. But it stands me in good stead- even if I miss my festal menaion  and have to make do with printing out everything I need for the Twelve feasts and Great Lent and Pascha.

Would this be more helpful? It still needs printing, but at least it would be just the once.

Actually, that would be exceedingly helpful. Thank you!

[Shanghaiski]

In order of usefulness and use:

1. Old Orthodox Prayerbook (Russian Old Rite)
2. Jordanville Prayerbook
3. HTM Prayerbook

[JamesR]

If I were a monastic or a retired, I would prefer the Jordanville because the prayers are longer and more indepth, but since I'm neither of those things yet, I prefer the Holy Transfiguration because the prayers are divided better and shorter. I mean, for crying out loud, the Jordanville morning prayers section is like 53 pages long! It's hard to say the whole thing when you have to leave in ten minutes.

[Hinterlander]

I started my first ever prayer rule with the HTM last August so I might as well stick to it until there is a really good reason to switch. 

Sometimes on the weekend I try to say Matins but get completely lost after the Six Psalms so I usually just finish with the Creed and the end of the morning prayers.  Of course, I'm still yet to even attend a DL so I really don't expect to know how to use the book.

[Andrew21091]

In order of usefulness and use:

1. Old Orthodox Prayerbook (Russian Old Rite)
2. Jordanville Prayerbook
3. HTM Prayerbook

I love the Old Orthodox Prayerbook. Its like a mini-Horologion. I prefer the Slavic style but don't like how Russian the Jordanville is. The prayers for Russia (and Russians in the "diaspora") included in the morning prayers are kind of silly to say if you aren't Russian, and even more silly if you're of Polish heritage like I am. The Old Orthodox Prayerbook doesn't have that, other than the litanies in the Liturgy, but they are in brackets to show they are only there as a recommended addition, since that is the current practice of ROCOR.

[Shanghaiski]

Extra content (from memory)

Old Orthodox Prayerbook--Two canons for the departed not in other two, a canon for the guardian angel not in the Jordanville (though it also has that one), a canon for communion totally different from the other two, molieben service, more pre- and post- communion prayers than the other two

Jordanville--Canon of repentance (which, IIRC, is not in HTM or OOP)

HTM--Small and Great Parakleses to the Mother of God, small compline

[AustralianDiaspora]

I have something called 'My Daily Orthodox Prayer Book' by Anthony M. Coniaris, and I have no idea how it compares to other books it seems okay??

[Alveus Lacuna]

I mean, for crying out loud, the Jordanville morning prayers section is like 53 pages long!

I just checked, and it's 26 pages, just for accuracy.

I love the Jordanville still, but the morning prayers are almost never preformed by me because I loathe the mornings. If I am ever going to begin a morning prayer rule then it's going to need to be five minutes long or something. I used to pray them as a stay-at-home dad, but now that I am off for work early every morning it just doesn't get done.

I firmly believe that it's important, though. Prayer is what life is all about.

[Asteriktos]

If I were a monastic or a retired, I would prefer the Jordanville because the prayers are longer and more indepth, but since I'm neither of those things yet, I prefer the Holy Transfiguration because the prayers are divided better and shorter. I mean, for crying out loud, the Jordanville morning prayers section is like 53 pages long! It's hard to say the whole thing when you have to leave in ten minutes.

I think I timed it one time and it came to like 15 or 16 minutes--about the same as an akathist IIRC. Certainly if you have 10 minutes or less there are other options though--another prayer book, or one of the hours works as well. Perhaps a short canon even?

[J Michael]

I use Jordanville- but that's because it's all I could afford. If I could find a Byzantine one within an affordable price range, I would- I'm Byzantine Catholic, not Russian. But it stands me in good stead- even if I miss my festal menaion   and have to make do with printing out everything I need for the Twelve feasts and Great Lent and Pascha.

Have you tried contacting the Byzantine Seminary Press in Pittsburgh?  They may be able to find you a copy of Byzantine Book of Prayer.