OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 28, 2014, 12:33:22 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Poll
Question: What are the daily expenses of your Church?
< $100 a day - 2 (15.4%)
$101 to $500 a day - 7 (53.8%)
$501 to $1,000 a day - 0 (0%)
> $1,000 a day - 4 (30.8%)
We have no expenses - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 13

Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Daily Expenses Incurred by your Church  (Read 3146 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« on: October 19, 2009, 01:17:03 AM »

My Cathedral has an annual budget of $950,000 which breaks down to $2,602 per day.  The daily figure is rounded up to $3,000 per day in an attempt to sell the Parishioners the idea of collecting $1,000,000 in Stewardship.

The purpose of the poll is to see how many Churches fall into the daily expense ranges listed in the poll.  Take the expenses listed in your annual budget (salaries, utilities, commitments, etc.) and divide it by 365.
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,378


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2009, 06:12:06 AM »

But you're not comparing apples to apples. I mean, if you were to compare Annunciation Cathedral in Atlanta, to the Cathedral I currently attend, it's two completely different things.

Atlanta has over 1800 families. My current parish had less than 40 people in it today. I've seen the budgets for both parishes, they are on completely different scales.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2009, 09:01:08 AM »

If you'd like to know what the average stewardship cash flow is, just multiple the "giving units" by ~ $390. That's the mean average annual stewardship gift, last it was calculated. Granted, that was probably 10 years ago, as far as I remember. With the increased adoption of stewardship in Orthodox parishes in the U.S. in the last ten years, that number is probably a bit higher. I doubt by very much though.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,533


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2009, 02:21:17 PM »

My Cathedral has an annual budget of $950,000 which breaks down to $2,602 per day.  The daily figure is rounded up to $3,000 per day in an attempt to sell the Parishioners the idea of collecting $1,000,000 in Stewardship.

The purpose of the poll is to see how many Churches fall into the daily expense ranges listed in the poll.  Take the expenses listed in your annual budget (salaries, utilities, commitments, etc.) and divide it by 365.
Why are you even making it your business to know? Huh
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2009, 03:08:59 PM »

My Cathedral has an annual budget of $950,000 which breaks down to $2,602 per day.  The daily figure is rounded up to $3,000 per day in an attempt to sell the Parishioners the idea of collecting $1,000,000 in Stewardship.

The purpose of the poll is to see how many Churches fall into the daily expense ranges listed in the poll.  Take the expenses listed in your annual budget (salaries, utilities, commitments, etc.) and divide it by 365.
Why are you even making it your business to know? Huh

I thought the poll question was self-explanatory.  police
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2009, 03:14:33 PM »

If you'd like to know what the average stewardship cash flow is, just multiple the "giving units" by ~ $390. That's the mean average annual stewardship gift, last it was calculated. Granted, that was probably 10 years ago, as far as I remember. With the increased adoption of stewardship in Orthodox parishes in the U.S. in the last ten years, that number is probably a bit higher. I doubt by very much though.

Expenses are the focus, not revenues.  The purpose in posting the poll was to see if any other Church had daily expenses greater than $1,000 per day.  The tidbit about Stewardship was added because the Cathedral's daily expenses of $2,602 per day was rounded up to $3,000 per day and graphics and pie charts have been placed throughout Church locations to sell parishioners on increased Stewardship.  To repeat, Stewardship Revenue is not the focus of this poll.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2009, 03:19:29 PM »

But you're not comparing apples to apples. I mean, if you were to compare Annunciation Cathedral in Atlanta, to the Cathedral I currently attend, it's two completely different things.

Atlanta has over 1800 families. My current parish had less than 40 people in it today. I've seen the budgets for both parishes, they are on completely different scales.

You can still divide the expenses by 365 to see how much does it cost per day to operate the Church.  You pay your priest whether he's in NJ or Atlanta.  You pay utilities.  You make Archiocesan Commitments, et al.

For example, my Church pays property taxes on buildings that she owns but does not use for religious purposes - which total $10,000 per year or possibly more.  Divide that by 365 - that is $30 spent every day paying taxes to local and state authorities.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,533


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2009, 03:58:19 PM »

My Cathedral has an annual budget of $950,000 which breaks down to $2,602 per day.  The daily figure is rounded up to $3,000 per day in an attempt to sell the Parishioners the idea of collecting $1,000,000 in Stewardship.

The purpose of the poll is to see how many Churches fall into the daily expense ranges listed in the poll.  Take the expenses listed in your annual budget (salaries, utilities, commitments, etc.) and divide it by 365.
Why are you even making it your business to know? Huh

I thought the poll question was self-explanatory.  police
Self-explanatory as to purpose, yes.  As to why this is even any of your business, you still haven't explained that.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2009, 04:08:08 PM »

Self-explanatory as to purpose, yes.  As to why this is even any of your business, you still haven't explained that.

OK, the maximum number was capped at $1,000 per day in the poll because I've seen other Church budgets of all sizes and Orthodox Jurisdictions and none of them exceeded $1,000 per day.  I'm curious to see if other Churches have per diem expenses of at least $1,000 per day; there is my reasoning.   Smiley
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,378


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 05:23:10 PM »

Self-explanatory as to purpose, yes.  As to why this is even any of your business, you still haven't explained that.

OK, the maximum number was capped at $1,000 per day in the poll because I've seen other Church budgets of all sizes and Orthodox Jurisdictions and none of them exceeded $1,000 per day.  I'm curious to see if other Churches have per diem expenses of at least $1,000 per day; there is my reasoning.   Smiley

But in order for the study to be accurate and fair, you would have to compare the expenses of two parishes of the same size. Also, you have to take into account things like mortgages, financial responsibilities, size of staff, number of families affiliated with the parish., etc., etc, etc.

I mean, you may have two parishes that have 1000 families, but if one parish is up to their eyeballs in hock and have a larger staff, their expenses are obviously going to be different than the other parish. Rather than taking your concerns to an internet forum, these are questions that should be asked at the Annual Meeting when the budget is discussed and voted on by the General Membership.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 05:56:07 PM »

I think the OP is just curious how his parish stacks up, and, more generally, how much liability other parishes tend to carry on the books.

I think a $1 million budget puts you in the top 15.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 06:00:44 PM »

I think the OP is just curious how his parish stacks up, and, more generally, how much liability other parishes tend to carry on the books.

I think a $1 million budget puts you in the top 15.

Thank you for better expressing my goal with this poll.   Smiley

My Church does not carry any mortgages; however, mortgage interest is considered a per diem expense for those Churches who carry a mortgage.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 06:17:00 PM »

But in order for the study to be accurate and fair, you would have to compare the expenses of two parishes of the same size. Also, you have to take into account things like mortgages, financial responsibilities, size of staff, number of families affiliated with the parish., etc., etc, etc.

Two Churches can be the same size.  One has mortgage; One doesn't.  $500 per diem expense equates to annual expenses of $182,500.  One Church pays their Priest salary and benefits of $80,000 a year while the other Church spends $80,000 a year on iconography, pays $40,000 a year mortgage interest and their Priest has a full-time secular job.  Both may have different financial commitments to Dioceses, Metropolitans, Archdioceses even Patriarchates. 

The per diem expense, IMO, places Churches on equal financial footing without divulging how each Church spends their money.

I mean, you may have two parishes that have 1000 families, but if one parish is up to their eyeballs in hock and have a larger staff, their expenses are obviously going to be different than the other parish. Rather than taking your concerns to an internet forum, these are questions that should be asked at the Annual Meeting when the budget is discussed and voted on by the General Membership.

Why are these concerns?  I'm curious to see if other Churches have expenses greater than $1,000 per day.

Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,533


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 07:31:45 PM »

I mean, you may have two parishes that have 1000 families, but if one parish is up to their eyeballs in hock and have a larger staff, their expenses are obviously going to be different than the other parish. Rather than taking your concerns to an internet forum, these are questions that should be asked at the Annual Meeting when the budget is discussed and voted on by the General Membership.

Why are these concerns?  I'm curious to see if other Churches have expenses greater than $1,000 per day.


Why?
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2009, 07:45:04 PM »

I mean, you may have two parishes that have 1000 families, but if one parish is up to their eyeballs in hock and have a larger staff, their expenses are obviously going to be different than the other parish. Rather than taking your concerns to an internet forum, these are questions that should be asked at the Annual Meeting when the budget is discussed and voted on by the General Membership.

Why are these concerns?  I'm curious to see if other Churches have expenses greater than $1,000 per day.
Why?

Simple, I think my Church's daily expenses are excessive and regardless of how much they claim to have saved in the last 5 years, they are clearly on the far end of the per diem expense scale.
Logged
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,987



« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2009, 01:06:31 AM »

My parish's Operational Budget comes to a $1,877.00 daily expenses; one Priest w/16 yrs. priestly seniority, one part-time Liturgical Assistant Priest, who also assists with Youth Programs, is on loan from the Carpatho-Russian Diocese, and does not receive the Archdiocesan clergy pay scale.  It's a 520 (+/-) family suburban parish in Northeast Ohio. This budget includes the parish's charitable contributions, but does not include Benevolent contributions to needy parishioners. Stewardship revenue is 33% of income (approximately 20% of stewards give rather small amounts); other large income items include an annual Festival, hall catering, and pre-school rental. 

None of this includes a $450,000 mortgage for property purchased in '04, which is handled through member pledges above their stewardship contributions, the rental of two residences on this new property, and oil/gas well revenues.

I'm on the Stewardship and Finance Committees and support the items in the budgets.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,533


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2009, 01:43:26 AM »

I mean, you may have two parishes that have 1000 families, but if one parish is up to their eyeballs in hock and have a larger staff, their expenses are obviously going to be different than the other parish. Rather than taking your concerns to an internet forum, these are questions that should be asked at the Annual Meeting when the budget is discussed and voted on by the General Membership.

Why are these concerns?  I'm curious to see if other Churches have expenses greater than $1,000 per day.
Why?

Simple, I think my Church's daily expenses are excessive and regardless of how much they claim to have saved in the last 5 years, they are clearly on the far end of the per diem expense scale.
Then I really don't think the comparisons you're asking us to help you make are going to be very helpful to you.  I've been at enough parish annual meetings, even as one who has never served on the parish council, to know that a parish's expenses are driven by a large number of factors unique to the circumstances and situation of that local parish.  To compare my parish to another similarly sized parish in another part of town, or even out in the sticks away from the big city, is a ridiculous comparison to make for the very reason stated above, so I don't even bother to know what another parish does with their money.  The only thing that concerns me is what my parish does with the money it brings in from tithes, offerings, and other sources, and whether the things we're spending our money on fit within the mission of our church or are otherwise necessary or appropriate.  My opinion of whether my parish is spending its money appropriately has nothing to do with what the Greek church down the street is doing with its money.  That's their business, not mine.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 01:44:04 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2009, 02:13:18 AM »

Then I really don't think the comparisons you're asking us to help you make are going to be very helpful to you. 

So far, they have been helpful to me.   Wink

I've been at enough parish annual meetings, even as one who has never served on the parish council, to know that a parish's expenses are driven by a large number of factors unique to the circumstances and situation of that local parish.

I agree with the bolded statement.  That is why I believe the per diem amount is telling. 

To compare my parish to another similarly sized parish in another part of town, or even out in the sticks away from the big city, is a ridiculous comparison to make for the very reason stated above, so I don't even bother to know what another parish does with their money.

8 out of 10 posters report that their Church spends less than $500 per day.  Sure, they may go to smaller Churches with less expenses; however, I like to think that size of a Church is not directly proportional to per diem expenses.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,533


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2009, 02:34:57 AM »

8 out of 10 posters report that their Church spends less than $500 per day.  Sure, they may go to smaller Churches with less expenses; however, I like to think that size of a Church is not directly proportional to per diem expenses.
But is the way you like to think really appropriate to the circumstances?  I would say it's quite illogical.
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2009, 07:31:18 AM »

I mean, you may have two parishes that have 1000 families, but if one parish is up to their eyeballs in hock and have a larger staff, their expenses are obviously going to be different than the other parish. Rather than taking your concerns to an internet forum, these are questions that should be asked at the Annual Meeting when the budget is discussed and voted on by the General Membership.

Why are these concerns?  I'm curious to see if other Churches have expenses greater than $1,000 per day.
Why?

Simple, I think my Church's daily expenses are excessive and regardless of how much they claim to have saved in the last 5 years, they are clearly on the far end of the per diem expense scale.
So you're going to go tell your parish council they're completely wrong based upon an Internet poll which does not even tell you who voted for what option?
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2009, 01:30:57 PM »

Quote from: SolEX01
Simple, I think my Church's daily expenses are excessive and regardless of how much they claim to have saved in the last 5 years, they are clearly on the far end of the per diem expense scale.
So you're going to go tell your parish council they're completely wrong based upon an Internet poll which does not even tell you who voted for what option?

What makes you (or anyone else) presume that I'm going to run to the Parish Council of my Church with results based on an Internet forum poll?   Huh

What is the issue with asking how much a Church spends per day?   Huh  I'm not proud my Church spends $3,000 per day because I know half that amount is salaries and benefits.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,956


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2009, 01:44:05 PM »

What is the issue with asking how much a Church spends per day?   Huh  I'm not proud my Church spends $3,000 per day because I know half that amount is salaries and benefits.

Well, if the salaries and benefits are going to people who are doing good work for the Church, then I don't see a problem with it (says the guy who gets a salary and benefits from his Church).

Our parish's per diem expenses are just a hair above $2,000 (proposed for 2009 Jan-Dec).  59% are salaries & benefits (covering 5 FT and 2 PT employees, plus other PT staff); 16.5% are for various building, utility, and operations expenses, and just over 10% goes to the Archdiocese (with a percentage going back to the Metropolis).  Of course, we've got a lot of programs here, and the parish has between 550 and 600 families (about 525 are stewards).  Many youth & young adult ministries, daily hospital visits, etc.  (Oh, and 71% of the expenses are covered by stewardship alone; the festival pays $0 into our annual operating budget.)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 02:30:11 PM by Fr. George » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2009, 01:51:45 PM »

Yeah. There have been several studies done across denominational lines, and all have found that about 50% of a church's budget goes to pay salaries/benefits of staff. That percentage is typically lower in rural states (~47%) and higher in urban areas and populous states (~60%). A fact of life, esp when a full health care policy costs $12,000 or more.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2009, 02:01:15 PM »

What is the issue with asking how much a Church spends per day?   Huh  I'm not proud my Church spends $3,000 per day because I know half that amount is salaries and benefits.

Well, if the salaries and benefits are going to people who are doing good work for the Church, then I don't see a problem with it (says the guy who gets a salary and benefits from his Church).

Thank you Father.   Smiley  When I made those comments, I was referring to multiple people on the payroll besides the Priest like Office and Business Managers.

Our parish's per diem expenses are just a hair above $2,000 (proposed for 2009 Jan-Dec).  59% are salaries & benefits; 16.5% are for various building, utility, and operations expenses, and just over 10% goes to the Archdiocese (with a percentage going back to the Metropolis).  Of course, we've got a lot of programs here, and the parish has between 550 and 600 families (about 525 are stewards).  Many youth & young adult ministries, daily hospital visits, etc.  (Oh, and 71% of the expenses are covered by stewardship alone; the festival pays $0 into our annual operating budget.)

I would find a 60% salary and benefits percentage of the budget more extreme than my Church.  Maybe it is my own personal hangup from past, ahem, personal overspending.   Undecided
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,956


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2009, 02:35:12 PM »

I would find a 60% salary and benefits percentage of the budget more extreme than my Church.  Maybe it is my own personal hangup from past, ahem, personal overspending.   Undecided

I think part of the size in that number is that we've got 2 FT employees with 20+ years of service (one of them has 30+), and another (one or two, I don't remember) with 10+.  Around here, I'm 2nd lowest on the "time served" list (all FT and PT office staff considered). The 59% covers 2 FT and 1 PT clergy, 1 FT and 1 PT secretary, 1 FT hall manager, 1 FT and 1 PT custodian (even though the PT works FT hours), plus other PT staff (choir director, organist, cantor, hall staff, etc.).
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,987



« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2009, 02:46:12 PM »

I was employed in public contract procurement for 23 years.  It is typical in non-profit, service delivery, for staff salaries and benefits to be as much as 80% or so of expenses, because it is the employees who deliver the services.  It's not like for-profit businesses which produce a product(s) for sale.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2009, 02:51:24 PM »

I would find a 60% salary and benefits percentage of the budget more extreme than my Church.  Maybe it is my own personal hangup from past, ahem, personal overspending.   Undecided

I think 50% is an ideal, actually -- much lower than that only happens in Baptist churches in Wyoming. Personal/familial budgets operate with a totally different rationale and set of best practices than organizational budgets.

That said, one could analyze how much goes to pastoral staff vs pure administration.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,956


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2009, 03:20:24 PM »

That said, one could analyze how much goes to pastoral staff vs pure administration.

What's tricky in the Church is that the administration portion (secretaries, janitorial staff, social hall management) often performs pastoral tasks anyway (like the hall manager organizing Church functions or makaria lunches which most of the time don't even break-even).
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,533


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2009, 03:47:59 PM »

Quote from: SolEX01
Simple, I think my Church's daily expenses are excessive and regardless of how much they claim to have saved in the last 5 years, they are clearly on the far end of the per diem expense scale.
So you're going to go tell your parish council they're completely wrong based upon an Internet poll which does not even tell you who voted for what option?

What makes you (or anyone else) presume that I'm going to run to the Parish Council of my Church with results based on an Internet forum poll?   Huh
Why are you conducting an Internet forum poll on this subject?

What is the issue with asking how much a Church spends per day?
Because it's none of your business.  If others feel comfortable giving you the information you have requested, then that's their prerogative to do so.  However, I don't see how this information is any of your business.  Attend to the affairs of your own parish, and stop looking to us for information that will help you make unrealistic comparisons with other parishes.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2009, 04:33:29 PM »

Why are you conducting an Internet forum poll on this subject?

Is there anything on this forum which doesn't allow me to conduct polls on Church Expenses?  I've posted threads on Stewardship.  Why not a poll on Church Expenses?

I've seen enough Church financial information published in weekly and monthly bulletins (in print and online) for various Orthodox Churches across the USA.  Two posters have shared details about their per diem expenses; God Bless Them.   Smiley  God Bless the rest of you who have voted in this poll.   Smiley

 
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,956


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2009, 04:44:18 PM »

I've seen enough Church financial information published in weekly and monthly bulletins (in print and online) for various Orthodox Churches across the USA.

It would probably be more meaningful to also somehow factor in the amount spent by each parish per family.  For example: our per diem of $2,000 (the amount above this that has been truncated is less than 1% of the total) serves 550-600 families.  Keeping with the more conservative estimate (550), we're spending about $3.64 per family per day.  Your parish has about 800 families (at least as far as stewards of the Church are concerned); a $3,000 per diem is only $3.75 per family per day - not much higher than our budget.  When considering the number of people serviced (through the sacraments, educational and youth programs, bible studies, et al.), that's not an unreasonable amount to be paying, and that was using the admittedly high estimate that your church has published for the per diem.

I still think the question "How is the money spent?" is critical to any poll, even if informal, on the subject.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2009, 04:54:47 PM »

I've seen enough Church financial information published in weekly and monthly bulletins (in print and online) for various Orthodox Churches across the USA.

It would probably be more meaningful to also somehow factor in the amount spent by each parish per family.  For example: our per diem of $2,000 (the amount above this that has been truncated is less than 1% of the total) serves 550-600 families.  Keeping with the more conservative estimate (550), we're spending about $3.64 per family per day.  Your parish has about 800 families (at least as far as stewards of the Church are concerned); a $3,000 per diem is only $3.75 per family per day - not much higher than our budget.

As of September 18, 2009, there have been 786 Stewards at my Church.  Using the low amount of $2,602 per day ($3,000 is the inflated figure, not actual figure), the per diem per steward is $3.31 a day.  I'm not disputing that $3.25 to $4 (or higher) per day per steward is unreasonable; I'm concerned about those (myself included) who are unable to afford that "minimum" per diem amount. 

When considering the number of people serviced (through the sacraments, educational and youth programs, bible studies, et al.), that's not an unreasonable amount to be paying, and that was using the admittedly high estimate that your church has published for the per diem.

I'm in absolute agreement.   Smiley

I still think the question "How is the money spent?" is critical to any poll, even if informal, on the subject.

Thank You.   Smiley
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,533


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2009, 05:25:48 PM »

Why are you conducting an Internet forum poll on this subject?

Is there anything on this forum which doesn't allow me to conduct polls on Church Expenses?
There's no rule preventing you from conducting such a poll, but the mere absence of a prohibition does not make the action wise or welcome.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2009, 06:08:57 PM »

Why are you conducting an Internet forum poll on this subject?

Is there anything on this forum which doesn't allow me to conduct polls on Church Expenses?
There's no rule preventing you from conducting such a poll, but the mere absence of a prohibition does not make the action wise or welcome.

According to your opinion, discussion of Church Expenses is neither wise nor welcome and falls outside the various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity?  Huh  Sad  Huh

Quote
We are a vibrant community dedicated to discussion of various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

Source is Forum Rules.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,533


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2009, 06:57:45 PM »

Why are you conducting an Internet forum poll on this subject?

Is there anything on this forum which doesn't allow me to conduct polls on Church Expenses?
There's no rule preventing you from conducting such a poll, but the mere absence of a prohibition does not make the action wise or welcome.

According to your opinion, discussion of Church Expenses is neither wise nor welcome and falls outside the various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity?  Huh  Sad  Huh
Please don't put words in my mouth, SolEX01, for I never said that discussion of church expenses falls outside the various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity.  You seem to want to make this out as if I'm trying to act as a moderator to enforce some forum rule, policy, or mission.  I'm not.  The only thing I've said, and not as a moderator, is that I don't think your inquiry into how much money other churches spend on their day-to-day operations is any of your business and that you would do better to focus on more pertinent issues.  I have no reason nor authority to say any more than this.
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2009, 07:14:21 PM »

Quote from: SolEX01
Simple, I think my Church's daily expenses are excessive and regardless of how much they claim to have saved in the last 5 years, they are clearly on the far end of the per diem expense scale.
So you're going to go tell your parish council they're completely wrong based upon an Internet poll which does not even tell you who voted for what option?

What makes you (or anyone else) presume that I'm going to run to the Parish Council of my Church with results based on an Internet forum poll?   Huh
The fact that you have stated that you feel your parish is spending money irresponsibly, and are asking us for information about how our parishes spend money, seems to me that you are looking for backup on your position. Why not ask for a full financial statement from your parish? Every parish I've been a part of, Orthodox or not, makes one for all their members each year. Then you'd really know where the money is going.

What is the issue with asking how much a Church spends per day?   Huh  I'm not proud my Church spends $3,000 per day because I know half that amount is salaries and benefits.
Only half? That's awesome for a parish, especially if you pay your priest a competitive wage. What's your complaint?
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2009, 11:12:24 PM »

Please don't put words in my mouth, SolEX01, for I never said that discussion of church expenses falls outside the various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

When you tell me to go pursue other things and that some of the things are none of my business, then I feel that this topic is not to be discussed as part of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.  Why not stay out of this discussion like you have suggested numerous times to me? 

You seem to want to make this out as if I'm trying to act as a moderator to enforce some forum rule, policy, or mission.  I'm not.  The only thing I've said, and not as a moderator, is that I don't think your inquiry into how much money other churches spend on their day-to-day operations is any of your business and that you would do better to focus on more pertinent issues.  I have no reason nor authority to say any more than this.

You made your point.  Let the thread run its course.   Smiley
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2009, 11:14:12 PM »

The fact that you have stated that you feel your parish is spending money irresponsibly, and are asking us for information about how our parishes spend money, seems to me that you are looking for backup on your position. Why not ask for a full financial statement from your parish?

I can get that next month at the Assembly.

Every parish I've been a part of, Orthodox or not, makes one for all their members each year. Then you'd really know where the money is going.

What is the issue with asking how much a Church spends per day?   Huh  I'm not proud my Church spends $3,000 per day because I know half that amount is salaries and benefits.
Only half? That's awesome for a parish, especially if you pay your priest a competitive wage. What's your complaint?

Being asked to fund it.   Undecided
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,533


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2009, 12:31:31 AM »

Please don't put words in my mouth, SolEX01, for I never said that discussion of church expenses falls outside the various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

When you tell me to go pursue other things and that some of the things are none of my business, then I feel that this topic is not to be discussed as part of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
But when you then attribute to me what it is you feel as if I said it, how is that not putting words in my mouth?

Why not stay out of this discussion like you have suggested numerous times to me?
You started this discussion.  Yet I'm not free to offer the commentary I think is necessary?

You seem to want to make this out as if I'm trying to act as a moderator to enforce some forum rule, policy, or mission.  I'm not.  The only thing I've said, and not as a moderator, is that I don't think your inquiry into how much money other churches spend on their day-to-day operations is any of your business and that you would do better to focus on more pertinent issues.  I have no reason nor authority to say any more than this.

You made your point.  Let the thread run its course.   Smiley
Yes, I made my point.  As for the thread "running its course"...  Well, I think my comments are part of the thread running its course.  If you're asking questions that are best not asked, wouldn't you want someone else to tell you so?

But you're right.  I have said all I needed to say, and you know very well now what I think of your nosiness.  Any more from me on my opinion would merely be an exercise in superfluous redundancy, so I better quit now.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 12:40:21 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,378


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2009, 12:34:54 AM »

Being asked to fund it.   Undecided

I don't understand, you are against your offering going towards paying your priest? While I cannot speak for your parish, most parish priests (and parish staff) are severely underpaid for the amount of hours they put in (without complaint!) to serve the Church.

Am I misunderstanding you? Or is there something else going on here?
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,987



« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2009, 12:42:41 AM »

For whatever it may be worth, I find this topic of substantial interest.  Sharing of our local parish budgets, and the various ministries of our parish's, is quite helpful to me and I would assume, of interest to others. Of course, the demographics and location of our parish's are variants which we should be made aware of, but again, I like he topic of this thread, and my parish will benefit, based on the data/replies submitted by "oc.net." members.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2009, 12:55:38 AM »

Being asked to fund it.   Undecided

I don't understand, you are against your offering going towards paying your priest? While I cannot speak for your parish, most parish priests (and parish staff) are severely underpaid for the amount of hours they put in (without complaint!) to serve the Church.

Am I misunderstanding you? Or is there something else going on here?

Sorry for misunderstanding.   Embarrassed To elaborate, being asked to give the equivalent of $3 to $4 a day as part of a Stewardship commitment where not everyone is in a position to make such an offering.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 01:05:40 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2009, 01:04:14 AM »

Yes, I made my point.  As for the thread "running its course"...  Well, I think my comments are part of the thread running its course.  If you're asking questions that are best not asked, wouldn't you want someone else to tell you so?

As a recent divorcee, I know better not to post a poll asking the forum what I should look for in my next girlfriend, asking the forum for tips on keeping my son occupied in a restaurant, et al.   angel  I don't see how a poll about Church expenses equals a question that should not be asked?   Huh

But you're right.  I have said all I needed to say, and you know very well now what I think of your nosiness.  Any more from me on my opinion would merely be an exercise in superfluous redundancy, so I better quit now.

There is interest in the thread.  Only you have stood up and said that this question is better not asked.  No one else has made such a public stand as you have.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,533


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2009, 01:10:09 AM »

But you're right.  I have said all I needed to say, and you know very well now what I think of your nosiness.  Any more from me on my opinion would merely be an exercise in superfluous redundancy, so I better quit now.

There is interest in the thread.  Only you have stood up and said that this question is better not asked.  No one else has made such a public stand as you have.
ytterbiumanalyst has made similar criticisms, though he hasn't been as vocal as I have.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2009, 01:14:33 AM »

ytterbiumanalyst has made similar criticisms, though he hasn't been as vocal as I have.

Mr. Y. has made his comments pertinent to the thread.  You said to mind my own business and leave the question unasked.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.157 seconds with 74 queries.