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Author Topic: Ukrainian National Hymn in Liturgy?  (Read 3164 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 18, 2009, 03:35:12 PM »

Today after Liturgy, we had a brief choir rehearsal. Part of it was to discuss the elements that will be needed for the Hierarchal Liturgy on Nov 8th, and part of it was to rehearse the addition of a new hymn. The new hymn is to be sung after the dismissal as people are going up to venerate the cross. From what I was told, it is a Ukrainian National song that is a prayer for Ukraine. My reply to this was, after we sing a Ukrainian National hymn, are we going to follow it with “God bless America”? (My sarcasm was not well received.)

My personal feeling on this is that in a day and age when our parish is dying and most of our parishioners do not speak Ukrainian, adding a Ukrainian National hymn that 90% of the parish will not understand just does not make sense. Also, it will isolate any members of our parish who are not of Ukrainian descent. (And we have a small, but growing number.) Furthermore, we should be adding more English to the Liturgy, as it is important that the faithful be able to understand what we are praying.

The response I received from the Choir Director and another choir member was that “this song is sung in every Ukrainian parish except ours, and you shouldn’t try to bar Ukrainian traditions” and “it doesn’t matter if people understand what is going on, they just come to Church for the beauty of it.” The second response was followed-up with “when you go to the Opera, you don’t understand what is going on, why should you understand what is going on at Church?” When I pointed out that we are not in Church for a concert, but to worship God, they told me that Church is not for worship, just for beauty.

The conversation continued that I should not try to reach out to the community to bring in growth, but just hope and pray that a boat load of Ukrainian immigrants come over to save our parish.

This entire thing has me infuriated and hurt. I am not interested in preserving Ukraine; I am interested in preserving Orthodoxy and our faith. I am trying so hard to help the parish grow, and these people can’t see beyond the yellow and blue.

So am I over reacting? I’m trying hard to get over this, but it’s really bothering me.

Your insight is appreciated.


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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2009, 05:18:04 PM »

Today after Liturgy, we had a brief choir rehearsal. Part of it was to discuss the elements that will be needed for the Hierarchal Liturgy on Nov 8th, and part of it was to rehearse the addition of a new hymn. The new hymn is to be sung after the dismissal as people are going up to venerate the cross. From what I was told, it is a Ukrainian National song that is a prayer for Ukraine. My reply to this was, after we sing a Ukrainian National hymn, are we going to follow it with “God bless America”? (My sarcasm was not well received.)

My personal feeling on this is that in a day and age when our parish is dying and most of our parishioners do not speak Ukrainian, adding a Ukrainian National hymn that 90% of the parish will not understand just does not make sense. Also, it will isolate any members of our parish who are not of Ukrainian descent. (And we have a small, but growing number.) Furthermore, we should be adding more English to the Liturgy, as it is important that the faithful be able to understand what we are praying.

The response I received from the Choir Director and another choir member was that “this song is sung in every Ukrainian parish except ours, and you shouldn’t try to bar Ukrainian traditions” and “it doesn’t matter if people understand what is going on, they just come to Church for the beauty of it.” The second response was followed-up with “when you go to the Opera, you don’t understand what is going on, why should you understand what is going on at Church?” When I pointed out that we are not in Church for a concert, but to worship God, they told me that Church is not for worship, just for beauty.

The conversation continued that I should not try to reach out to the community to bring in growth, but just hope and pray that a boat load of Ukrainian immigrants come over to save our parish.

This entire thing has me infuriated and hurt. I am not interested in preserving Ukraine; I am interested in preserving Orthodoxy and our faith. I am trying so hard to help the parish grow, and these people can’t see beyond the yellow and blue.

So am I over reacting? I’m trying hard to get over this, but it’s really bothering me.

Your insight is appreciated.




I'm afraid the bold face explains the underlined.

I don't think a national song is necessarily out of place, and that people have to understand every single thing, but it would have to be in the right context.  It seems your parish is not the right context.
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2009, 05:30:03 PM »

The Ukrainian church down the road from me sings God Bless America at the end of every liturgy.
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2009, 05:49:35 PM »

I'm afraid the bold face explains the underlined.

I don't think a national song is necessarily out of place, and that people have to understand every single thing, but it would have to be in the right context.  It seems your parish is not the right context.

The thing that upsets me is that I know not everyone in the parish feels this way. It's just a select few and it burns me up.

Am I over reacting?
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2009, 06:19:40 PM »

No, I don’t think you are overreacting. Those kinds of people drive people away from the Church. They obviously seem to care more about being Ukrainian than being Orthodox since they really don't understand what Orthodoxy is. I've never heard anything so stupid than saying that Church is about beauty and not worship! I don't care if people want to preserve their culture but it seems many place that above Orthodoxy or Christ and as far as I see it, people who do such things are not Orthodox but rather idolaters who worship their culture rather than Christ. Lord have mercy on such people.

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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2009, 07:26:09 PM »

Possibly there has never been anyone who has shown them church is supposed to be like?? Possibly they are trying to hold on to the small-t traditions of their ancestors, in a world were distinct culture is seen as a bad thing??

Keep in mind that there are more than a few parishes that seem to be dying off, but have been rescued by an influx of immigrants from the Old Country. We get so caught up in celebrating converts, that we seem to forget that it is important to reach out to immigrants. I would suggest not looking at this situation as a bad thing. They clearly want to have the song there, so let them. But try thinking of ways to turn this into a good thing. I over use the quote from Mother Gabriella, but its: "God either Wills it or Permits it, either way its His." Does your parish have an ESL program for recent immigrants?? Do you encourage the youth to learn the language of their ancestors--Ukraine these days is a market just opening to the world, future opportunities in business and education are immense. Do you encourage people to seek out their roots through genealogy clubs etc??

There are many ways that you can turn this into a positive, and there are many ways to make the parish thrive. English services is not some magic pill, if people want to be in the Church, they will be in the Church. Whenever I go to the local Ukrainian cathedral, the service is all Ukrainian. Yet amongst the faithful who worship you will see the odd family of Eritreans. They might not kknow the language, but they know its important to be there and to worship.
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2009, 07:56:20 PM »

Possibly there has never been anyone who has shown them church is supposed to be like?? Possibly they are trying to hold on to the small-t traditions of their ancestors, in a world were distinct culture is seen as a bad thing??

Keep in mind that there are more than a few parishes that seem to be dying off, but have been rescued by an influx of immigrants from the Old Country. We get so caught up in celebrating converts, that we seem to forget that it is important to reach out to immigrants. I would suggest not looking at this situation as a bad thing. They clearly want to have the song there, so let them. But try thinking of ways to turn this into a good thing. I over use the quote from Mother Gabriella, but its: "God either Wills it or Permits it, either way its His." Does your parish have an ESL program for recent immigrants?? Do you encourage the youth to learn the language of their ancestors--Ukraine these days is a market just opening to the world, future opportunities in business and education are immense. Do you encourage people to seek out their roots through genealogy clubs etc??

There are many ways that you can turn this into a positive, and there are many ways to make the parish thrive. English services is not some magic pill, if people want to be in the Church, they will be in the Church. Whenever I go to the local Ukrainian cathedral, the service is all Ukrainian. Yet amongst the faithful who worship you will see the odd family of Eritreans. They might not kknow the language, but they know its important to be there and to worship.

While I get the whole "turn it around" concept, the thing of it is 95% of our parishoners are either American born, or have been here so long that they speak English fluently. I can only think of 1 person where English is a problem. (It happens to be the new wife of the Choir Director. After the marriage to his American-born wife failed, my American-born choir director went directly to Ukraine to fetch himself a bride.)

Father has offered to teach Ukrainian to the parishoners in the past, and nobody was interested so the classes never took off.

The immigrants in the town surrounding the parish aren't from Ukraine. They are from Puerto Rico and India.

Many people in the parish say, "Well all the Ukrainians in town moved away, and Americans don't like to go to Church anymore, so that's why we are dying, and there is nothing we can do about it.

I say, "Orthodoxy is growing in the US, we just have to reach out to our community and get over our zenophobia."

I just hope I'm not banging my head against a brick wall.
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 08:19:23 PM »

Possibly there has never been anyone who has shown them church is supposed to be like?? Possibly they are trying to hold on to the small-t traditions of their ancestors, in a world were distinct culture is seen as a bad thing??

Keep in mind that there are more than a few parishes that seem to be dying off, but have been rescued by an influx of immigrants from the Old Country. We get so caught up in celebrating converts, that we seem to forget that it is important to reach out to immigrants. I would suggest not looking at this situation as a bad thing. They clearly want to have the song there, so let them. But try thinking of ways to turn this into a good thing. I over use the quote from Mother Gabriella, but its: "God either Wills it or Permits it, either way its His." Does your parish have an ESL program for recent immigrants?? Do you encourage the youth to learn the language of their ancestors--Ukraine these days is a market just opening to the world, future opportunities in business and education are immense. Do you encourage people to seek out their roots through genealogy clubs etc??

There are many ways that you can turn this into a positive, and there are many ways to make the parish thrive. English services is not some magic pill, if people want to be in the Church, they will be in the Church. Whenever I go to the local Ukrainian cathedral, the service is all Ukrainian. Yet amongst the faithful who worship you will see the odd family of Eritreans. They might not kknow the language, but they know its important to be there and to worship.

While I get the whole "turn it around" concept, the thing of it is 95% of our parishoners are either American born, or have been here so long that they speak English fluently. I can only think of 1 person where English is a problem. (It happens to be the new wife of the Choir Director. After the marriage to his American-born wife failed, my American-born choir director went directly to Ukraine to fetch himself a bride.)

Father has offered to teach Ukrainian to the parishoners in the past, and nobody was interested so the classes never took off.

The immigrants in the town surrounding the parish aren't from Ukraine. They are from Puerto Rico and India.

Many people in the parish say, "Well all the Ukrainians in town moved away, and Americans don't like to go to Church anymore, so that's why we are dying, and there is nothing we can do about it.

I say, "Orthodoxy is growing in the US, we just have to reach out to our community and get over our zenophobia."

I just hope I'm not banging my head against a brick wall.

Make baby steps. You don't have to single-handedly turn the parish around, that's God's job. Your job is to be His Vessel. Start a prayer circle. Think about homeless ministry. Just have ideas and keep plugging away.

If you want to talk about banging your head against a brick wall, trying running an OCF Chapter. Only one other person usually comes. Just don't give up.
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2009, 08:30:30 PM »

I do not have an opinion on that, one way or other. Certainly, in Ukraine singing the national hymn ("O great and One God, keep our Ukraine..." - "Божe вeликий, єдиний, нашу Вкраїну храни!") after Divine Liturgies makes full sense. Also in the diaspora, if a parish has many Ukrainian-speaking people, recent immigrants - also, I would say yes, sure, great. But if there aren't any Ukrainian-speaking folks in the parish, then, indeed, singing the hymn in Ukrainian might sound strange and redundant to them. And then, while in Ukraine the Church's appeal to patriotic feelings of the people is natural, outside of Ukraine it is perhaps very secondary or even unimportant compared to the main mission of the Church, i.e. proclaiming the Gospel and making disciples...
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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2009, 08:32:30 PM »

I do not have an opinion on that, one way or other. Certainly, in Ukraine singing the national hymn ("O great and One God, keep our Ukraine..." - "Божe вeликий, єдиний, нашу Вкраїну храни!") after Divine Liturgies makes full sense. Also in the diaspora, if a parish has many Ukrainian-speaking people, recent immigrants - also, I would say yes, sure, great. But if there aren't any Ukrainian-speaking folks in the parish, then, indeed, singing the hymn in Ukrainian might sound strange and redundant to them. And then, while in Ukraine the Church's appeal to patriotic feelings of the people is natural, outside of Ukraine it is perhaps very secondary or even unimportant compared to the main mission of the Church, i.e. proclaiming the Gospel and making disciples...

Thank you! Can you please fly out to NJ and tell that to these people! LOL
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2009, 08:34:35 PM »

Make baby steps. You don't have to single-handedly turn the parish around, that's God's job. Your job is to be His Vessel. Start a prayer circle. Think about homeless ministry. Just have ideas and keep plugging away.

If you want to talk about banging your head against a brick wall, trying running an OCF Chapter. Only one other person usually comes. Just don't give up.

Thanks, I needed to be reminded of this.

I will pray for your OCF group if you will pray for my parish. Deal? Wink
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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2009, 08:46:49 PM »

Make baby steps. You don't have to single-handedly turn the parish around, that's God's job. Your job is to be His Vessel. Start a prayer circle. Think about homeless ministry. Just have ideas and keep plugging away.

If you want to talk about banging your head against a brick wall, trying running an OCF Chapter. Only one other person usually comes. Just don't give up.

Thanks, I needed to be reminded of this.

I will pray for your OCF group if you will pray for my parish. Deal? Wink

Deal.

Also see: http://www.oca.org/PDF/Evangelization/2004.Parish-Revitalization.pdf

I know you are UOC but the OCAniks do get one right now and then. Wink
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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2009, 08:55:46 PM »

Deal.

Also see: http://www.oca.org/PDF/Evangelization/2004.Parish-Revitalization.pdf

I know you are UOC but the OCAniks do get one right now and then. Wink

Oh, don't worry, I commited UOC heresy a looooong time ago by belonging to an OCA parish for 3 years, and a GOA parish for 2. I'm surprised they let me walk through the door! LOL

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
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« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2009, 08:56:52 PM »

No, I don’t think you are overreacting. Those kinds of people drive people away from the Church. They obviously seem to care more about being Ukrainian than being Orthodox since they really don't understand what Orthodoxy is. I've never heard anything so stupid than saying that Church is about beauty and not worship! I don't care if people want to preserve their culture but it seems many place that above Orthodoxy or Christ and as far as I see it, people who do such things are not Orthodox but rather idolaters who worship their culture rather than Christ. Lord have mercy on such people.



Its like you can read the hearts and minds of all cradle orthodox interesting....
Why should, ukrainians, serbians, russians, romainians,bulgarians, greeks or any orthodox nationality give up it's identity,,why  just because there located in western countries i don't agree we should...I like going to different orthodox  churches,i rejoice in the music the food, culture,the differences and similarities if i was in a ukrainian church i would sing their national hymn if they happen to be singing it while i was their visiting,,,...

Serbian Churched most of them  have a english Holy Liturgy and one in  staro slovenski .....

Some people that can't speak another language other than english seem to be against other languges and other cultures, i wonder why.....

Beauty shall save the world now who said that...hmm hmmm..
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 09:09:35 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2009, 09:13:36 PM »

Its like you can read the hearts and minds of all cradle orthodox interesting....
Why should, ukrainians, serbians, russians, romainians,bulgarians, greeks or any orthodox nationality give up it's identity,,why  just because there located in western countries i don't agree we should...I like going to different orthodox  churches,i rejoice in the music the food, culture,the differences and similarities if i was in a ukrainian church i would sing their national hymn if they happen to be singing it while i was their visiting,,,...

Serbian Churched most of them  have a english Holy Liturgy and one in  staro slovenski .....

Some people that can't speak another language other than english seem to be against other languges and other cultures, i wonder why.....

Beauty shall save the world now who said that...hmm hmmm..


a) If you read my posts you would see that all but 1 parishoner in my parish are fluent in English.

b) No one is saying that we cannot preserve our Ukrainian traditions, but not at the expense of our American born parishoners.

c) The Divine Liturgy is beautiful, but that is not why we go to Church. We go to Church to worship the Living God.

Oh, and I may not have been born in the "Old Country" but I am cradle Orthodox, and have just as much a right to hold onto my American traditions as I do my Ukrainian ones.
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2009, 09:22:12 PM »

There is all english orthodox churches around ..I sent many english only speaking serbs to the Antiochian orthodox church,because they didn't have a way to get to a english serbian orthodox Holy Liturgy...The churches were to far away..
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2009, 09:37:08 PM »

There is all english orthodox churches around ..I sent many english only speaking serbs to the Antiochian orthodox church,because they didn't have a way to get to a english serbian orthodox Holy Liturgy...The churches were to far away..


So even though my great grand parents founded this parish 100 years ago, and every member of my father's family has been baptised, married, and buried through this parish, and 95% of the parishoners do not speak Ukrainian, we should make provisions for one (at top's) three people, and my family and I should just leave?!
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« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2009, 10:04:57 PM »

No, I don’t think you are overreacting. Those kinds of people drive people away from the Church. They obviously seem to care more about being Ukrainian than being Orthodox since they really don't understand what Orthodoxy is. I've never heard anything so stupid than saying that Church is about beauty and not worship! I don't care if people want to preserve their culture but it seems many place that above Orthodoxy or Christ and as far as I see it, people who do such things are not Orthodox but rather idolaters who worship their culture rather than Christ. Lord have mercy on such people.



Its like you can read the hearts and minds of all cradle orthodox interesting....
Why should, ukrainians, serbians, russians, romainians,bulgarians, greeks or any orthodox nationality give up it's identity,,why  just because there located in western countries i don't agree we should...I like going to different orthodox  churches,i rejoice in the music the food, culture,the differences and similarities if i was in a ukrainian church i would sing their national hymn if they happen to be singing it while i was their visiting,,,...

You misunderstood my post. I never said that they should abandon their cultures but it seems many place their culture above Orthodoxy which I have seen happen many times. I don’t think the church should be used as an ethnic club but it should retain their culture but not make it the dominant reason for being in church. Don’t get me wrong, I love going to Russian and other Slavic churches (though, I’ve mainly been to Russian) because I love Slavic culture because I am of Slavic heritage. The people the original post is talking about use the Church only to preserve their culture and it’s not seen as a place of worship.

Also, I would be just as against singing the American national anthem in church because I see it as inappropriate since the Church is something that represents the Kingdom of Heaven not Ukraine, Serbia, Greece, Russia, America, etc.

Quote
Serbian Churched most of them  have a english Holy Liturgy and one in  staro slovenski .....

Some people that can't speak another language other than english seem to be against other languges and other cultures, i wonder why.....

I’m not against the use of other languages (I didn’t even say anything about language). In fact whenever I am in Chicago, I usually go to the ROCOR cathedral for vigil where it is done entirely in Slavonic and I absolutely love it. I’ve also been to a Greek monastery that uses nothing but Greek in their services but on none of those occasions did I feel not welcomed because I wasn’t a Russian or a Greek. When one places their ethnic identity above being Orthodox, then they are worshiping not Christ but their culture and this cannot be. My only problem is with phyletism, not culture.

Forgive me if my original post was harsh in any way or misunderstood. I really do not wish to cause offence.
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« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2009, 11:18:46 PM »

Flags in Churches reason for them and does this cause some churches to sing there national hymns curious....one answer i got ...

I asked my late mom once about flags in Orthodox churches ..Her simple answer was that God ordained them..She said in the  old testament God told the children of the twelve tribes of Israel to gather every tribe under its banner/flag ,im not sure if it was for a great censes or something else ,i can't remember the reason for it though but it is mentioned....
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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2009, 11:39:44 PM »

That song isn't sang in my parish (and it's Ukrainian Orthodox EP).  In fact they use Church Slavonic instead of Ukrainian.  At one time they used Ukrainian/Church Slavonic.  Now they use Church Slavonic/English.  So tell the choir director that song isn't sang in every UOC-USA parish as it isn't sang in the two near me (the other one near me uses almost all Church Slavonic).
The ACROD parish near us sings God Bless America and such sometimes after the liturgy.  I've seen it done there twice.  I haven't been there in three years so I can't vouch for the continuing frequency of that song.
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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2009, 01:04:57 AM »

There is all english orthodox churches around ..I sent many english only speaking serbs to the Antiochian orthodox church,because they didn't have a way to get to a english serbian orthodox Holy Liturgy...The churches were to far away..


So even though my great grand parents founded this parish 100 years ago, and every member of my father's family has been baptised, married, and buried through this parish, and 95% of the parishoners do not speak Ukrainian, we should make provisions for one (at top's) three people, and my family and I should just leave?!





The parish will probably not exist within th next 10 - 15 years if things don't change or the attitude doesn't change.  That is unless of course their prayers are answered and another boat or plane suddenlly arrives from Ukraine to refurbish the ethnic country club they call Church.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2009, 05:58:53 AM »

The parish will probably not exist within th next 10 - 15 years if things don't change or the attitude doesn't change.  That is unless of course their prayers are answered and another boat or plane suddenlly arrives from Ukraine to refurbish the ethnic country club they call Church.

Orthodoc

Yes, I am accutely aware of this. Thank you for stating the obvious. (facepalm)
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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2009, 06:04:51 AM »

That song isn't sang in my parish (and it's Ukrainian Orthodox EP).  In fact they use Church Slavonic instead of Ukrainian.  At one time they used Ukrainian/Church Slavonic.  Now they use Church Slavonic/English.  So tell the choir director that song isn't sang in every UOC-USA parish as it isn't sang in the two near me (the other one near me uses almost all Church Slavonic).
The ACROD parish near us sings God Bless America and such sometimes after the liturgy.  I've seen it done there twice.  I haven't been there in three years so I can't vouch for the continuing frequency of that song.

I thought about his statement for a while and I realized, he wasn't talking necassarily about every UOC parish in the US. He was comparing it to churches in Ukraine.

Holy Mother Ukraine, where all is good and right, people prosper, and God has cast his favor upon the land.  Roll Eyes   Tongue

See, our Choir Director goes there at minimum, twice a year. He only associates with Ukrainian people, and considers all other ethnicities that happen to have the word "Orthodox" after their name to not truly be "Orthodox." When I told him that I had attended a GOA parish while living in Atlanta, he called them a bunch of Baptists.

(Um, newsflash buddy, the Ukrainians got their faith from those so-called "Baptists.")

My only consolation is that most of the people in my parish do not share his views.
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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2009, 06:07:13 AM »

Flags in Churches reason for them and does this cause some churches to sing there national hymns curious....one answer i got ...

I asked my late mom once about flags in Orthodox churches ..Her simple answer was that God ordained them..She said in the  old testament God told the children of the twelve tribes of Israel to gather every tribe under its banner/flag ,im not sure if it was for a great censes or something else ,i can't remember the reason for it though but it is mentioned....

Actually, I believe it's against the canons to have flags in Churches.

Orthodoxy is Catholic. It is Universal. It is not affiliated with a flag or country. We are there to worship Christ; not pat ourselves on the back for being a particular ethnicity.
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« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2009, 07:26:41 AM »

That song isn't sang in my parish (and it's Ukrainian Orthodox EP).  In fact they use Church Slavonic instead of Ukrainian.  At one time they used Ukrainian/Church Slavonic.  Now they use Church Slavonic/English.  So tell the choir director that song isn't sang in every UOC-USA parish as it isn't sang in the two near me (the other one near me uses almost all Church Slavonic).
The ACROD parish near us sings God Bless America and such sometimes after the liturgy.  I've seen it done there twice.  I haven't been there in three years so I can't vouch for the continuing frequency of that song.

I thought about his statement for a while and I realized, he wasn't talking necassarily about every UOC parish in the US. He was comparing it to churches in Ukraine.

Holy Mother Ukraine, where all is good and right, people prosper, and God has cast his favor upon the land.  Roll Eyes   Tongue

See, our Choir Director goes there at minimum, twice a year. He only associates with Ukrainian people, and considers all other ethnicities that happen to have the word "Orthodox" after their name to not truly be "Orthodox." When I told him that I had attended a GOA parish while living in Atlanta, he called them a bunch of Baptists.

(Um, newsflash buddy, the Ukrainians got their faith from those so-called "Baptists.")

My only consolation is that most of the people in my parish do not share his views.

Who sings that song in UA?  The UOAC, KP?  Tell him if the MP does in Ukraine then you'd know it'd be canonical and you'd think about supporting it.  I bet smelling salts would be needed to revive him.  Sorry I've been in an antagonistic mood as of lately.
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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2009, 10:24:28 AM »


Oh my.

This is not a "song" that you are all referring to.  It is a prayer.

As this is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA, what is wrong with saying a prayer for Ukraine?  Do we not pray for the American president, government and armed forces?  Why so "anti" Ukraine?

This is not a "nationalistic, political" song.  This is not the national anthem.  It is a prayer, begging God to preserve Ukraine.

Honestly, I don't see the issue.  So what if it's sung in Ukrainian?  If the Liturgy was in English and the folks understood it, what's the harm of the closing prayer being in Ukrainian?  They should realize they are in a Ukrainian church, after all.

As for the mentality of the choir director...I can't vouch for him.  I don't know him and don't know what drives his attitude.  I suppose if most of the parish isn't happy with him, appoint a new director.  It's been done before.

My parish always sings the prayer for Ukraine.  While the service is 50/50 English/Ukrainian, I haven't heard anyone complain. 

So, here goes:  (this is me singing...)   Cheesy


Боже великий, єдиний,       God, One Almighty
Нам Україну храни,            Protect Ukraine for us
Волі і світу промінням         by freedom's and the rays of light
Ти її осіни.                        May You illuminate her.

Світлом науки і знання       By the light of education an knowledge
Нас, дітей, просвіти,          Enlighten us, Your children,
В чистій любові до краю,    With pure love to the land
Ти нас, Боже, зрости.        You, our God, instill us.

Молимось, Боже єдиний,     We pray, Lord, the Only
Нам Україну храни,             For us, Ukraine please keep
Всі свої ласки й щедроти     All of your generosity
Ти на люд наш зверни.       Please grant to our people.

Дай йому волю, дай йому долю,  Give them freedom, give them a good destiny,
Дай доброго світу, щастя,  Give them happiness
Дай, Боже, народу            Give this, God, to the people
І многая, многая літа.        And many, many years!

Again, let me reiterate.  Church is NOT a ethnic club, or anything of that sort. 

Orthodoxy should always come first.  The liturgy should be served in a way that the people understand it.

However, one should not be afraid of everything that links that church to it's ethnic background.  After all, it was the those people (in this case Ukrainian), who preserved the Faith in the old country...in many cases dying for their beliefs; it was the those ethnic people who came to America, and did not pick another faith for convenience, but, persevered and built this church.

We should be proud of our Ukrainian Orthodox heritage.

I wish every Orthodox church the best in keeping the church doors open and attracting new parishioners.

However, keep in mind what Taras Shevchenko once said:

...Учітесь, читайте, і чужому научайтесь, і свого не цуpайтесь...

...Study, read, learn foreign things, but, do not reject your own...


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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2009, 10:35:08 AM »


Oh my.

This is not a "song" that you are all referring to.  It is a prayer.

As this is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA, what is wrong with saying a prayer for Ukraine?  Do we not pray for the American president, government and armed forces?  Why so "anti" Ukraine?

This is not a "nationalistic, political" song.  This is not the national anthem.  It is a prayer, begging God to preserve Ukraine.

Honestly, I don't see the issue.  So what if it's sung in Ukrainian?  If the Liturgy was in English and the folks understood it, what's the harm of the closing prayer being in Ukrainian?  They should realize they are in a Ukrainian church, after all.

As for the mentality of the choir director...I can't vouch for him.  I don't know him and don't know what drives his attitude.  I suppose if most of the parish isn't happy with him, appoint a new director.  It's been done before.

My parish always sings the prayer for Ukraine.  While the service is 50/50 English/Ukrainian, I haven't heard anyone complain. 

So, here goes:  (this is me singing...)   Cheesy


Боже великий, єдиний,       God, One Almighty
Нам Україну храни,            Protect Ukraine for us
Волі і світу промінням         by freedom's and the rays of light
Ти її осіни.                        May You illuminate her.

Світлом науки і знання       By the light of education an knowledge
Нас, дітей, просвіти,          Enlighten us, Your children,
В чистій любові до краю,    With pure love to the land
Ти нас, Боже, зрости.        You, our God, instill us.

Молимось, Боже єдиний,     We pray, Lord, the Only
Нам Україну храни,             For us, Ukraine please keep
Всі свої ласки й щедроти     All of your generosity
Ти на люд наш зверни.       Please grant to our people.

Дай йому волю, дай йому долю,  Give them freedom, give them a good destiny,
Дай доброго світу, щастя,  Give them happiness
Дай, Боже, народу            Give this, God, to the people
І многая, многая літа.        And many, many years!

Again, let me reiterate.  Church is NOT a ethnic club, or anything of that sort. 

Orthodoxy should always come first.  The liturgy should be served in a way that the people understand it.

However, one should not be afraid of everything that links that church to it's ethnic background.  After all, it was the those people (in this case Ukrainian), who preserved the Faith in the old country...in many cases dying for their beliefs; it was the those ethnic people who came to America, and did not pick another faith for convenience, but, persevered and built this church.

We should be proud of our Ukrainian Orthodox heritage.

I wish every Orthodox church the best in keeping the church doors open and attracting new parishioners.

However, keep in mind what Taras Shevchenko once said:

...Учітесь, читайте, і чужому научайтесь, і свого не цуpайтесь...

...Study, read, learn foreign things, but, do not reject your own...




What does the song sound like?  Thank you for the info Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2009, 10:46:47 AM »


Huh  Didn't you hear me singing it?

I tried to sing SO LOUD!
 Cheesy

There are at least two different melodies that I have heard.

They are both very slow and reverent.

Here's a link to one of the versions:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm58wq5sp0w

This is the version we sing at my parish.






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« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2009, 11:59:09 AM »

Wow, that's very beautiful, very moving, Liza! To my shame, I've never heard it before. It's really very beautiful.
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« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2009, 12:20:09 PM »


Huh  Didn't you hear me singing it?

I tried to sing SO LOUD!
 Cheesy

There are at least two different melodies that I have heard.

They are both very slow and reverent.

Here's a link to one of the versions:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm58wq5sp0w

This is the version we sing at my parish.








Smiley I know this song.  Chaulk it up to being over-loaded in life at the moment!
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« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2009, 12:46:35 PM »

First of all, this prayer is not sung "in the Liturgy"; it is sung after the liturgy as are many religious songs in the Ukrainian tradition.
"Bozhe Velykyj" has always been sung in my parish here in canada after the liturgy.  It is especially needed now as Ukraine prepares for an election.
Our old prayer book hadf a number of religious songs that ere popular in 19th century Ukraine up to the 1020's at the back of the book.  These are called "extra-liturgical" songs and there is nothing wrong with them.
There are also various "Kants" that were compsed by Bortniansky, a famous Ukrainian religious composer which are also not sung during the liturgy but recently have been revived to be sung by choirs.  I was told by family that in the 1930's there would be concerts of religious music held in churches in the afternoons of religious music like this.
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« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2009, 01:47:41 PM »

I know of one American "ethnic" Orthodox Church that has acquired a newer neighbor of Slavic immigrant charismatics in a former Byzantine Catholic church next door in one of our local towns. Talk about irony.
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« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2009, 05:33:11 PM »

Liza,

Thank you for your help.

It is a beautiful prayer, no doubt. If my parish had been singing this all along, I would not have a problem with it. My concern is that in a time when we are trying to make ourselves more available to a non-Ukrainian community, I fear adding songs about Ukraine in Ukrainian will just isolate us from the community further. Also, as most of the parishoners in my parish do not speak Ukrainian (though they be of Ukrainian descent), I feel it may also isolate our parishoners.

I am not trying to strip my parish of its Ukrainian identity. I'm not trying to take away anything that was already there. But I fear adding songs like this may have a negative, unwanted effect.

I don't know if there is a "right" or "wrong" answer to this.

I do, however, appreciate your input.

In XC,

Maureen
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« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2009, 06:57:40 PM »

Flags in Churches reason for them and does this cause some churches to sing there national hymns curious....one answer i got ...

I asked my late mom once about flags in Orthodox churches ..Her simple answer was that God ordained them..She said in the  old testament God told the children of the twelve tribes of Israel to gather every tribe under its banner/flag ,im not sure if it was for a great censes or something else ,i can't remember the reason for it though but it is mentioned....

Actually, I believe it's against the canons to have flags in Churches.

Orthodoxy is Catholic. It is Universal. It is not affiliated with a flag or country. We are there to worship Christ; not pat ourselves on the back for being a particular ethnicity.



Oh! i Didn't know that ,Serbs have a serbian flag on the side of Christ in front of the ikonastasis with a cross on top ,plus a american flag with a eagle on top where the ikona of the Theotokos and child is,,we sing the St. Sava hymn in church can't remeber if we sing the hymn  for the protection of the king of serbia in church though....
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« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2009, 07:01:06 PM »

Quote
Orthodoxy is Catholic. It is Universal. It is not affiliated with a flag or country. We are there to worship Christ; not pat ourselves on the back for being a particular ethnicity.

What? Orthodoxy was not affiliated with the Roman (Byzantine) Empire? Is outrage!
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« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2009, 02:36:02 AM »

Actually, I believe it's against the canons to have flags in Churches.

Romanian churches are full of Romanian flags. Even the candles brought out during the entrances have tassles on them with the colours of the Romanian flag.
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