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Poll
Question: Why Do You Believe In God?
The Lives of Saints - 17 (8.7%)
The Witness of Martyrs - 19 (9.7%)
Historical Evidence - 18 (9.2%)
Science - 7 (3.6%)
The Bible - 17 (8.7%)
Miracles - 9 (4.6%)
Nature/Fine-Tuned Universe Argument - 13 (6.6%)
Other Philosophical Arguments - 16 (8.2%)
I Just Believe - 30 (15.3%)
A Personal Experience - 50 (25.5%)
Total Voters: 84

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« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2009, 03:42:56 PM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God

Then please demonstrate to me, logically and objectively, what meaning there is to life, except what you or I arbitrarily assign to it.

Something I honestly don't understand, why this obsession with meaning? Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it even matter if life has a meaning? Can't we just enjoy each moment for what it is and when it passes, it passes.

Foie gras tastes just as good whether life has meaning or not, sex is just as pleasurable whether life has meaning or not, the Riemann Hypothesis is just as intriguing whether life has meaning or not...well, maybe that last one is unique to a small subset of the population, but you get my point. How does 'meaning' change any of these things? I don't really understand how 'meaning' would add any value to life.

Fine, if you can live with the idea that your life is meaningless and you don't matter at all, more power to you. It's probably just a personality disorder of mine anyway, to think that, for example, sex is more pleasurable with someone you love and have a relationship with (i.e. "meaning").

I would actually agree that personal relationships have great value, whether intimate or not...but do you need some overarching 'meaning' to your existence to love and care about someone and to derive pleasure from that relationship, be it friendship or romance? Or to put it another way, why can't this person and your relationship with them have value, for who they are and in and of itself, why is their value to you dependent on some philosophical ideal?
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« Reply #91 on: November 05, 2009, 03:53:03 PM »

katherineofdixie

Quote
Then please demonstrate to me, logically and objectively, what meaning there is to life, except what you or I arbitrarily assign to it.

Well this is interesting, because the above statement is something I could very well have said, yet I'm someone who doesn't believe that a God gives life meaning. I don't think people who derive their purpose/meaning in life from God could demonstrate it "logically and objectively" any more than I could demonstrate my non-God-derived meaning/purpose "logically and objectively" (with an emphasis on the objective part).
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« Reply #92 on: November 05, 2009, 05:23:24 PM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God

Then please demonstrate to me, logically and objectively, what meaning there is to life, except what you or I arbitrarily assign to it.

Something I honestly don't understand, why this obsession with meaning? Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it even matter if life has a meaning? Can't we just enjoy each moment for what it is and when it passes, it passes.

Foie gras tastes just as good whether life has meaning or not, sex is just as pleasurable whether life has meaning or not, the Riemann Hypothesis is just as intriguing whether life has meaning or not...well, maybe that last one is unique to a small subset of the population, but you get my point. How does 'meaning' change any of these things? I don't really understand how 'meaning' would add any value to life.

Fine, if you can live with the idea that your life is meaningless and you don't matter at all, more power to you. It's probably just a personality disorder of mine anyway, to think that, for example, sex is more pleasurable with someone you love and have a relationship with (i.e. "meaning").

I would actually agree that personal relationships have great value, whether intimate or not...but do you need some overarching 'meaning' to your existence to love and care about someone and to derive pleasure from that relationship, be it friendship or romance? Or to put it another way, why can't this person and your relationship with them have value, for who they are and in and of itself, why is their value to you dependent on some philosophical ideal?

It's not a philosophical ideal. If I don't matter and my partner doesn't matter, then why should I love and care about anyone? They have no value and neither do I, except what we both (or either) decide to assign to each other. That isn't love - IMHO, of course.
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« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2009, 05:26:26 PM »

katherineofdixie

Quote
Then please demonstrate to me, logically and objectively, what meaning there is to life, except what you or I arbitrarily assign to it.

Well this is interesting, because the above statement is something I could very well have said, yet I'm someone who doesn't believe that a God gives life meaning. I don't think people who derive their purpose/meaning in life from God could demonstrate it "logically and objectively" any more than I could demonstrate my non-God-derived meaning/purpose "logically and objectively" (with an emphasis on the objective part).

Exactly. It's all in who or what you do or don't derive meaning from, it seems to me. So assigning meaning or the value of pleasure to a particular experience, is no more valid than saying my belief in God gives my life meaning. (Btw, eating foie gras is not an experience that provides pleasure for me!)
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« Reply #94 on: November 05, 2009, 05:40:03 PM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God

Then please demonstrate to me, logically and objectively, what meaning there is to life, except what you or I arbitrarily assign to it.

Something I honestly don't understand, why this obsession with meaning? Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it even matter if life has a meaning? Can't we just enjoy each moment for what it is and when it passes, it passes.

Foie gras tastes just as good whether life has meaning or not, sex is just as pleasurable whether life has meaning or not, the Riemann Hypothesis is just as intriguing whether life has meaning or not...well, maybe that last one is unique to a small subset of the population, but you get my point. How does 'meaning' change any of these things? I don't really understand how 'meaning' would add any value to life.

Fine, if you can live with the idea that your life is meaningless and you don't matter at all, more power to you. It's probably just a personality disorder of mine anyway, to think that, for example, sex is more pleasurable with someone you love and have a relationship with (i.e. "meaning").

I would actually agree that personal relationships have great value, whether intimate or not...but do you need some overarching 'meaning' to your existence to love and care about someone and to derive pleasure from that relationship, be it friendship or romance? Or to put it another way, why can't this person and your relationship with them have value, for who they are and in and of itself, why is their value to you dependent on some philosophical ideal?

It's not a philosophical ideal. If I don't matter and my partner doesn't matter, then why should I love and care about anyone? They have no value and neither do I, except what we both (or either) decide to assign to each other. That isn't love - IMHO, of course.

I would hope that one could love them for who they are as a person, because of how you enjoy being with them, how you enjoy interaction with them. Not because they are ascribed value by someone or something else, but often people are attracted to others because of money, or popularity, or power...so maybe I'm just a hopeless idealist.

Quote
Exactly. It's all in who or what you do or don't derive meaning from, it seems to me. So assigning meaning or the value of pleasure to a particular experience, is no more valid than saying my belief in God gives my life meaning.

I wouldn't say that pleasure can be equated to meaning, though some philosophers would and have argued as much, it's just neurological programming, that is to say instinct, to seek pleasure and avoid pain. There's no meaning to it, it's just how we are and I can't see why it's bad to simply embrace that reality for what it is.

Quote
(Btw, eating foie gras is not an experience that provides pleasure for me!)

Well, that explains everything! Wink
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« Reply #95 on: November 06, 2009, 03:03:21 AM »

We can make our own reality, and what we believe in this earth is our reality. You can make up your mind and choose to believe in something; that is, to accept it merely by faith.  This is the easier path, trust me.  All the skeptical scientific reasoning and questioning, trying to prove/disprove God, leads to an early old age. (And we will never find the answer to our questions, at least in this life!) So what's the point? To have the faith of a child is to be sought after, and leads to a less stressful life.  Studies have shown that religious people tend to be happier in general, and live longer lives.  Hey, even if I was an atheist, that'd be enough reason to draw me towards faith!  angel
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« Reply #96 on: November 06, 2009, 07:59:24 AM »

Studies have shown that religious people tend to be happier in general, and live longer lives.  Hey, even if I was an atheist, that'd be enough reason to draw me towards faith!  angel
Are you sure it's a causational relationship?
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« Reply #97 on: November 06, 2009, 11:43:07 AM »

Studies have shown that religious people tend to be happier in general, and live longer lives.  Hey, even if I was an atheist, that'd be enough reason to draw me towards faith!  angel
Are you sure it's a causational relationship?

*shudders*  The "science" behind sociological studies.  Tongue
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« Reply #98 on: November 06, 2009, 01:18:25 PM »

Studies have shown that religious people tend to be happier in general, and live longer lives.  Hey, even if I was an atheist, that'd be enough reason to draw me towards faith!  angel
Are you sure it's a causational relationship?

*shudders*  The "science" behind sociological studies.  Tongue
Hey! Watch it! Cheesy
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« Reply #99 on: November 07, 2009, 09:08:57 PM »

Quote
The question then, is why should an atheist choose to go on living.

If there is no God, we have to make our own meaning in life. That meaning might include: the survival and prosperity of our species as a whole, a better life for those we love (e.g. our children), and happiness and productivity in our own life. Of course, most religious people would still say "What for? So what? What's the point? If there is no God, I don't see why people would care!"  I understand why some people think atheism should logically lead to nihilism: because for them without God there is no point to existence.

Those reasons are good to a certain extent, but ultimately shallow and nothing more than illusions to make someone feel good about themselves. For life without meaning and purpose can drive someone insane. It will make them disconnected and narcissistic.......a law unto themselves, and only caring about themselves. Not only that, but All these reasons are subject to change. There is no guarantee that someone would want the survival and prosperity of our species after experiences the evils that men do? Like the holocaust, the mass killings by Stalin, and the Asian communist warlords! The evil things we do to animals! After experiences such things an atheist might want our species as a whole to end.

A better life for our children might drive an atheist crazy if they made millions only to wonder if their children might squander their hard earned possessions! Such a thing might make an atheist despise their children as well as not being able to trust anyone with their wealth after they pass away.

And what is happiness and productivity if we are breathing to death? What's the point in trying to make yourself look good with cosmetic surgery, weight watchers, the fitness club if your body is decaying? We are breathing to die! Thus all such things are temporary and shallow. What's the point of it all if it really doesn't matter in the end? What's the point of it all if you die and no one remembers your name and who you are? It's pointless! The idea of "happiness" can lead to hedonism, which gets us back to nihilism.

 And as far as Nihilism goes, yes I truely believe that that is the logical conclusion of Atheism, but like most people we fall short in following through with the implications of what we believe, and so alot of us are inconsistant in what we believe in.

But for those that  wrestle with what they believe and slowly give in to the logical conclusions of a belief, then yes, such people will be more consistant.

And this is why I keep saying that the next generation of atheists will be more consistent. Just look at the "new atheists", and how the old atheist guard feel about them. It will only get worse.


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« Reply #100 on: November 07, 2009, 09:24:16 PM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God

Then please demonstrate to me, logically and objectively, what meaning there is to life, except what you or I arbitrarily assign to it.

Something I honestly don't understand, why this obsession with meaning? Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it even matter if life has a meaning? Can't we just enjoy each moment for what it is and when it passes, it passes.

Foie gras tastes just as good whether life has meaning or not, sex is just as pleasurable whether life has meaning or not, the Riemann Hypothesis is just as intriguing whether life has meaning or not...well, maybe that last one is unique to a small subset of the population, but you get my point. How does 'meaning' change any of these things? I don't really understand how 'meaning' would add any value to life.


Hedonism is your meaning to life.










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« Reply #101 on: November 08, 2009, 01:12:12 AM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God

Then please demonstrate to me, logically and objectively, what meaning there is to life, except what you or I arbitrarily assign to it.

Something I honestly don't understand, why this obsession with meaning? Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it even matter if life has a meaning? Can't we just enjoy each moment for what it is and when it passes, it passes.

Foie gras tastes just as good whether life has meaning or not, sex is just as pleasurable whether life has meaning or not, the Riemann Hypothesis is just as intriguing whether life has meaning or not...well, maybe that last one is unique to a small subset of the population, but you get my point. How does 'meaning' change any of these things? I don't really understand how 'meaning' would add any value to life.


Hedonism is your meaning to life.










ICXC NIKA

That's your position, not mine...I just live as I want to live, I think trying to find abstract reasons behind it is just foolish, the biological reasons are both objective and sufficent...but if it makes you feel better about yourself, that's great.
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« Reply #102 on: November 08, 2009, 01:39:07 AM »

I was reminded by my Grandmother's death why I believe in God.  I got a call last Thursday that she was in the hospital due to a burst colon riddled with cancer, and that the surgeon had discovered it had spread throughout her body.  Being 90, they cleaned her out, sewed her up, and said if she ever woke up she wouldn't have long to live.

After receiving that call, I headed for Mississippi and my grandmother's hospital room, along with two of my six children, Mary Inger and Irene.

We drove all night and arrived at 3 in the morning.  Grandma Toodles was awake, but couldn't speak, the cancer was in her throat.  But she could still move her left arm, smile, and sort of move her lips.  I let my girls give her a kiss, then my mom took them to my grandmother's house to sleep. In the middle of the night, that left me, Grandma Toodles, and my aunt Martha. I had brought my guitar so I sang songs, told stories, and then waited to watch the sun rise with my Grandma.

Later that morning, the room was filled with our family and together we sang my Grandma's favorite songs and hymns.  My girl, Mary Inger, sang her favorite, You are my Sunshine, and my Grandma mouthed the words with her. She smiled and moved her lips when she could, but she was fading fast. That room though was something like I'd never experienced. Our songs reverberated throughout the hospital floor, we held hands, weeped, hugged, and for a moment I felt the purest, truest love I'd ever felt in my life.

After the songs died down, I read my Grandmother her favorite bible verses as everyone else prayed.  It was the second half of Psalm 30:5 "weeping may tarry for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."  There wasn't a dry eye in the room.

Finally, Grandma Toodles was discharged from the hospital and returned home to die with her family.  Near the end, she didn't move much, but she'd grab your hand and move her lips a little.

Early Sunday morning I got up with my girls to say goodbye, we'd be leaving that day.  I whispered her favorite verse in her ear, "weeping may tarry for a night, but joy cometh in the morning" and told her everything was alright, she could rest now and I'd see her in heaven soon.  A few hours later, on a sunny Sunday morning, my Grandma met her joy. God had answered her prayer.

This is why I believe in God. Moments like these.

It is emotional, it is based on personal experience. I can't prove it or make someone believe it's more than the chemical reactions in the brain of a mammal who fears death.

But there was something real in that room, and with that women, that goes beyond this world and to me, points to God and points to Heaven.  Whether I'm right and God is real, or I'm just blissfully ignorant, either way, I give thanks for the joy a family of believers experienced together giving thanks to God as Grandma Toodles passed on to the next life.
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« Reply #103 on: November 08, 2009, 02:28:12 AM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God

Then please demonstrate to me, logically and objectively, what meaning there is to life, except what you or I arbitrarily assign to it.

Something I honestly don't understand, why this obsession with meaning? Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it even matter if life has a meaning? Can't we just enjoy each moment for what it is and when it passes, it passes.

Foie gras tastes just as good whether life has meaning or not, sex is just as pleasurable whether life has meaning or not, the Riemann Hypothesis is just as intriguing whether life has meaning or not...well, maybe that last one is unique to a small subset of the population, but you get my point. How does 'meaning' change any of these things? I don't really understand how 'meaning' would add any value to life.


Hedonism is your meaning to life.










ICXC NIKA

That's your position, not mine...I just live as I want to live, I think trying to find abstract reasons behind it is just foolish, the biological reasons are both objective and sufficent...but if it makes you feel better about yourself, that's great.

So you have decided that the best use of your mere biological existence is to spend time on this discussion board trying to convince us how meaningful your mere materialistic existence is? Wow. Look friend, if all that exixts is matter, then you really are wasting your time. There are a much greater biological pleasures to be had than trying to persuade us of the value of your subjective existentialist  fantasies.

Selam
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« Reply #104 on: November 08, 2009, 02:38:25 AM »

I feel like at this point I could argue against God's existence better than I could argue for His existence,

 I'd like to "hear" all of these arguments.  Why don't you start a separate thread that outlines these arguments?  I think it could be helpful for us all.
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« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2009, 02:39:53 AM »

I was reminded by my Grandmother's death why I believe in God.  I got a call last Thursday that she was in the hospital due to a burst colon riddled with cancer, and that the surgeon had discovered it had spread throughout her body.  Being 90, they cleaned her out, sewed her up, and said if she ever woke up she wouldn't have long to live.

After receiving that call, I headed for Mississippi and my grandmother's hospital room, along with two of my six children, Mary Inger and Irene.

We drove all night and arrived at 3 in the morning.  Grandma Toodles was awake, but couldn't speak, the cancer was in her throat.  But she could still move her left arm, smile, and sort of move her lips.  I let my girls give her a kiss, then my mom took them to my grandmother's house to sleep. In the middle of the night, that left me, Grandma Toodles, and my aunt Martha. I had brought my guitar so I sang songs, told stories, and then waited to watch the sun rise with my Grandma.

Later that morning, the room was filled with our family and together we sang my Grandma's favorite songs and hymns.  My girl, Mary Inger, sang her favorite, You are my Sunshine, and my Grandma mouthed the words with her. She smiled and moved her lips when she could, but she was fading fast. That room though was something like I'd never experienced. Our songs reverberated throughout the hospital floor, we held hands, weeped, hugged, and for a moment I felt the purest, truest love I'd ever felt in my life.

After the songs died down, I read my Grandmother her favorite bible verses as everyone else prayed.  It was the second half of Psalm 30:5 "weeping may tarry for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."  There wasn't a dry eye in the room.

Finally, Grandma Toodles was discharged from the hospital and returned home to die with her family.  Near the end, she didn't move much, but she'd grab your hand and move her lips a little.

Early Sunday morning I got up with my girls to say goodbye, we'd be leaving that day.  I whispered her favorite verse in her ear, "weeping may tarry for a night, but joy cometh in the morning" and told her everything was alright, she could rest now and I'd see her in heaven soon.  A few hours later, on a sunny Sunday morning, my Grandma met her joy. God had answered her prayer.

This is why I believe in God. Moments like these.

It is emotional, it is based on personal experience. I can't prove it or make someone believe it's more than the chemical reactions in the brain of a mammal who fears death.

But there was something real in that room, and with that women, that goes beyond this world and to me, points to God and points to Heaven.  Whether I'm right and God is real, or I'm just blissfully ignorant, either way, I give thanks for the joy a family of believers experienced together giving thanks to God as Grandma Toodles passed on to the next life.

Thank you for sharing that beautiful and heart-rending experience. My prayers are with you and your family. What you and your family experienced was hardly a mere chemical reaction, in spite of what others might say.

God seems so distant so much of the time; but when we really need to experience His presence He make Himself known in profound and mystical ways. I rejoice to know that your Grandmother passed from this earth surrounded by such deep love and holy worship.

My Our Lord be with you in this time of your loss. Rejoice to know that the Cross has prevailed, and that your Grandmother passed away in the knowledge of a merciful God and in the presence of a loving family.

Peace to you my brother.

Selam
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« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2009, 04:23:48 AM »

I feel like at this point I could argue against God's existence better than I could argue for His existence,

 I'd like to "hear" all of these arguments.  Why don't you start a separate thread that outlines these arguments?  I think it could be helpful for us all.

I have messaged Fr. Anastasios about the propriety of such a thread. When he gets back to me I'll let you know. Smiley
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« Reply #107 on: November 08, 2009, 05:54:03 PM »

I feel like at this point I could argue against God's existence better than I could argue for His existence,

 I'd like to "hear" all of these arguments.  Why don't you start a separate thread that outlines these arguments?  I think it could be helpful for us all.

I have messaged Fr. Anastasios about the propriety of such a thread. When he gets back to me I'll let you know. Smiley
Actually, I think you need to speak to Fr. Chris about that.
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« Reply #108 on: November 08, 2009, 06:07:48 PM »

Or u could just start the thread and blame it on Gabriel for asking you to if you get reprimanded!  Cheesy Wink j/k
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« Reply #109 on: November 08, 2009, 07:15:22 PM »

I feel like at this point I could argue against God's existence better than I could argue for His existence,

 I'd like to "hear" all of these arguments.  Why don't you start a separate thread that outlines these arguments?  I think it could be helpful for us all.

I have messaged Fr. Anastasios about the propriety of such a thread. When he gets back to me I'll let you know. Smiley
Actually, I think you need to speak to Fr. Chris about that.

Correct.  The request was forwarded.
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« Reply #110 on: November 08, 2009, 08:57:45 PM »

I feel like at this point I could argue against God's existence better than I could argue for His existence,

 I'd like to "hear" all of these arguments.  Why don't you start a separate thread that outlines these arguments?  I think it could be helpful for us all.

I have messaged Fr. Anastasios about the propriety of such a thread. When he gets back to me I'll let you know. Smiley
Actually, I think you need to speak to Fr. Chris about that.

Correct.  The request was forwarded.

Well, hopefully he won't be away from the forum for another eight days Wink
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« Reply #111 on: November 08, 2009, 09:46:08 PM »

I feel like at this point I could argue against God's existence better than I could argue for His existence,

 I'd like to "hear" all of these arguments.  Why don't you start a separate thread that outlines these arguments?  I think it could be helpful for us all.

I have messaged Fr. Anastasios about the propriety of such a thread. When he gets back to me I'll let you know. Smiley
Actually, I think you need to speak to Fr. Chris about that.

Correct.  The request was forwarded.

Well, hopefully he won't be away from the forum for another eight days Wink

Father Chris is on a much needed vacation. I think he'll be back this week.

Selam
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« Reply #112 on: November 08, 2009, 11:54:52 PM »

What reasons do you have for believing in God? What are the strongest reasons that make you believe that God exists? Note that this is not asking why you believe Christianity or Orthodoxy is the true path, but it's just about God's existence. I've set the poll so that you can pick your top three choices. 

Also, this is not part of the poll, but if someone asked you to defend your belief in God, how well do you think you would do?

The reason I'm asking this is rather personal, in that I find myself believing in God even though I don't really have any concrete reason to. I know about this and that argument for the existence of God, and I also know about this or that rebuttal to those arguments (which I usually find to be as persuasive as the original arguments). I'm also rather skeptical of things like miracles and the like. So I'm left not really having anything solid that I hang on to, and yet I still keep coming back to believing. So I was curious to see why others believe. I feel like at this point I could argue against God's existence better than I could argue for His existence, in spite of me believing that He exists. It's a rather strange place to be, intellectually speaking.
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Because you are an extremely analytical person (not a bad trait to possess), you may never have enough proof. So..try imagining yourself in 50 years?  Do you want to be an old Christian or do you want to be an old atheist?  If you want to be an old Christian, reduce the amount of time you are spending on intellectualizing and start practicing the faith.  Set your goal and head towards it. If you had a bad experience at one church, try another church.  Find a priest and a church family and tell them about your goal. If you can't find a "friendly" parish in your hometown (I have no idea where you live in PA), go to the next town and visit with that priest and church family.  If you start attending a parish and you are positive about the experience, your (significant other, wife, girlfriend, lover, partner)  will likely want to attend with you at some point.  Bring your precious daughter to church with you.  Smiley
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« Reply #113 on: November 09, 2009, 10:32:21 AM »

Everyone should be saying historical evidence/the Bible.

All the other reasons for believing in god, especially "a personal experience" can be used by a Mormon, Jew, Hindu, Muslim, etc. to justify their beliefs. I believe in God because so and so died, or my religion helps me as a person reminds me of that style over substance fallacy.
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« Reply #114 on: November 09, 2009, 10:46:12 AM »

Quote
All the other reasons for believing in god, especially "a personal experience" can be used by a Mormon, Jew, Hindu, Muslim, etc. to justify their beliefs.

I agree...
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« Reply #115 on: November 09, 2009, 10:50:59 AM »

Everyone should be saying historical evidence/the Bible.

All the other reasons for believing in god, especially "a personal experience" can be used by a Mormon, Jew, Hindu, Muslim, etc. to justify their beliefs. I believe in God because so and so died, or my religion helps me as a person reminds me of that style over substance fallacy.

Personal experience might not be a good reason for believing in my particular religion, but I thought the questions was, "why do you believe in God", not "why are you orthodox." I'm sure people from all the faith's you listed have truly "experienced" God, even if I might believe there faith is incorrect due to "historical evidence/the bible", etc.

If the question was "why do you believe in the orthodox church" I would have given a different answer.
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« Reply #116 on: November 09, 2009, 10:55:03 AM »

Personal experience might not be a good reason for believing in my particular religion, but I thought the questions was, "why do you believe in God", not "why are you orthodox." I'm sure people from all the faith's you listed have truly "experienced" God, even if I might believe there faith is incorrect due to "historical evidence/the bible", etc.

If the question was "why do you believe in the orthodox church" I would have given a different answer.
I guess you're right... mankind is certainly convinced of the divine, regardless of how poorly they conceive it.
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« Reply #117 on: November 09, 2009, 10:57:24 AM »

I just wanted to confirm that my intention for this thread was indeed to ask "why do you believe in God" generally, not "why are you orthodox" specifically. I believe that I've asked the latter question on this forum before, though I can't find that thread at the moment using the search function.
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« Reply #118 on: November 09, 2009, 02:06:13 PM »

I do have to say, if a person is an extreme skeptic, he cannot truely be sure of anything.
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« Reply #119 on: November 09, 2009, 02:15:44 PM »

I do have to say, if a person is an extreme skeptic, he cannot truely be sure of anything.

How true.
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« Reply #120 on: November 09, 2009, 05:19:25 PM »

I do have to say, if a person is an extreme skeptic, he cannot truely be sure of anything.
Ever hear of... I think, therefore I am?

I see three questions.. why does one believe in God, religion, denomination.

Reasons why I believe in God and religion are the same though. God and His pIan has been revealed by Moses and the prophets.
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« Reply #121 on: November 09, 2009, 05:21:51 PM »

I do have to say, if a person is an extreme skeptic, he cannot truely be sure of anything.
Ever hear of... I think, therefore I am?

I see three questions.. why does one believe in God, religion, denomination.

Reasons why I believe in God and religion are the same though. God and His pIan has been revealed by Moses and the prophets.
Oh Decartes.  Sad
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« Reply #122 on: November 09, 2009, 08:22:35 PM »

I do have to say, if a person is an extreme skeptic, he cannot truely be sure of anything.
Ever hear of... I think, therefore I am?


An extreme skeptic would doubt the idea behind cogito ergo sum. In fact, there are critiques of it even by people who aren't extreme skeptics. As for my own take on it, I consider it one of the few psychological truths that we can have a fairly high degree of assurance about. Not everyone would agree, however.
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« Reply #123 on: November 10, 2009, 05:32:28 AM »

Everyone should be saying historical evidence/the Bible.

All the other reasons for believing in god, especially "a personal experience" can be used by a Mormon, Jew, Hindu, Muslim, etc. to justify their beliefs. I believe in God because so and so died, or my religion helps me as a person reminds me of that style over substance fallacy.

If God's Energies exist everywhere then yes, everyone can say "they personally" experienced God at some level.

This is one of the reasons why I love saying that Orthodoxy is the fullness of the Faith.

Also Romans chapter 1 allows for all men to personaly experience God to some degree as well. So instead of denying the personal experience of Jews, Hindu, Muslim, Mormon.........etc.  I accept it, because I expect it if God is Omni-present.

At some degree/level, we all can experience God's Energies.


I also noticed, that in using this method, Atheism can be destroyed. If we have a certain level of respect of the nonOrthodox, then Atheism can't survive.

But the minute we view others as void of any light, any grace, any truth, any experience whatsover, is the minute we give ground to atheism/secularism.









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« Reply #124 on: November 10, 2009, 11:11:55 AM »

I cannot see that destroying Atheism at all.  Most will continue to think you (revelation-based theists, not specifically you, yourself) are delusional for believing in such energies, and many will continue to search for and discover rational, naturalist explanations.
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« Reply #125 on: November 10, 2009, 12:43:30 PM »

I cannot see that destroying Atheism at all.  Most will continue to think you (revelation-based theists, not specifically you, yourself) are delusional for believing in such energies, and many will continue to search for and discover rational, naturalist explanations.
Looking at natural explanations to explain the supernatural seems pretty delusional to me.
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« Reply #126 on: November 10, 2009, 12:53:24 PM »

I do have to say, if a person is an extreme skeptic, he cannot truely be sure of anything.
Ever hear of... I think, therefore I am?


An extreme skeptic would doubt the idea behind cogito ergo sum.
An amoeba doesn't "think", and yet it exists. Descartes missed the boat somewhere.
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« Reply #127 on: November 10, 2009, 03:07:45 PM »

Everyone should be saying historical evidence/the Bible.

All the other reasons for believing in god, especially "a personal experience" can be used by a Mormon, Jew, Hindu, Muslim, etc. to justify their beliefs. I believe in God because so and so died, or my religion helps me as a person reminds me of that style over substance fallacy.

I said both, along with lives of the saints.
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« Reply #128 on: November 10, 2009, 03:10:14 PM »

I do have to say, if a person is an extreme skeptic, he cannot truely be sure of anything.
Ever hear of... I think, therefore I am?


An extreme skeptic would doubt the idea behind cogito ergo sum.
An amoeba doesn't "think", and yet it exists. Descartes missed the boat somewhere.
I don't think that Decartes was saying that thinking causes one to exist. Rather, it is the proof that something exists because if something is thinking, it has to be in order to think.
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« Reply #129 on: November 10, 2009, 04:55:42 PM »

I do have to say, if a person is an extreme skeptic, he cannot truely be sure of anything.
Ever hear of... I think, therefore I am?


An extreme skeptic would doubt the idea behind cogito ergo sum.
An amoeba doesn't "think", and yet it exists. Descartes missed the boat somewhere.
I don't think that Decartes was saying that thinking causes one to exist. Rather, it is the proof that something exists because if something is thinking, it has to be in order to think.
You're putting the cart before the horse. You're assuming off the bat that "something" exists that is thinking; whereas this "something" is what you have to prove.
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« Reply #130 on: November 10, 2009, 05:08:24 PM »

I do have to say, if a person is an extreme skeptic, he cannot truely be sure of anything.
Ever hear of... I think, therefore I am?


An extreme skeptic would doubt the idea behind cogito ergo sum.
An amoeba doesn't "think", and yet it exists. Descartes missed the boat somewhere.
I don't think that Decartes was saying that thinking causes one to exist. Rather, it is the proof that something exists because if something is thinking, it has to be in order to think.
You're putting the cart before the horse. You're assuming off the bat that "something" exists that is thinking; whereas this "something" is what you have to prove.
This is where Decartes goes. If I doubt my existence, as you suggest then I am thinking. If I think, I have to exist. How can I have the illusion of existing unless I actually exist so that I can have the illusion?
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« Reply #131 on: November 11, 2009, 01:40:42 AM »

I cannot see that destroying Atheism at all.  Most will continue to think you (revelation-based theists, not specifically you, yourself) are delusional for believing in such energies, and many will continue to search for and discover rational, naturalist explanations.

It will destroy Atheism in the sense that no matter what, "Atheism" could never be an option because the doorway that could lead to atheism would be closed, and so indirectly, the human population of non-atheist will naturally out grow the human population of atheists. In modern times, most atheists seem to come from the theist, and polytheist background, and so, if we "philosophicaly" clog the holes to atheism, then atheism will either die out or remain a small population, and since countries come and go, economies rise and fall, eventually the majority of people will control and dictate the flow of information and money and how it's handled.

When the western world collapses, atheism will need anotherway to spread it's doctrines. It will need another machine to fund it's growth.

I see it as "growing a resistance" to atheism. Alot of theists in the past were killed or destroyed by atheism, but overtime, we grew a resistance to it. It no longer can kill us like it use to. This is one of the reasons why I love Panentheism so much. It leaves no room for Atheism, but it does leave room for Agnosticism, and so there is more room to maneuver than in traditional western Theism.


Eitherway, time is on our side for countries, empires, kingdoms, and economies come and go. Infact, a passive way to destroy the western world is for a certain population of people to not buy a thing for Christmass and Easter (2/3 of our economy is based on us going shopping). That alone would stop the governmental funding for alot of things.

And then, we can start all over and have the majority rewrite all the rules.


We are the food for atheists.......for most of them seem to come from us, and so, if we modify ourselves and our arguments, then we will taste awful, and will no longer be food.

And if atheists can't eat, then they will naturaly die out or remain a small group.









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« Reply #132 on: November 17, 2009, 10:27:43 AM »

I feel like at this point I could argue against God's existence better than I could argue for His existence,

 I'd like to "hear" all of these arguments.  Why don't you start a separate thread that outlines these arguments?  I think it could be helpful for us all.

I have messaged Fr. Anastasios about the propriety of such a thread. When he gets back to me I'll let you know. Smiley
Actually, I think you need to speak to Fr. Chris about that.

Correct.  The request was forwarded.

Ok, I've been given the go-ahead to start the thread, so here it is.
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« Reply #133 on: June 18, 2013, 06:56:14 PM »

It's been 3 1/2 years since this thread was active, and there are a ton of new members, and though I have made progress I am still in much the same position, so... bump!
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« Reply #134 on: June 18, 2013, 07:11:17 PM »

This is something I reeeeally reeeeally (emphasis added) hate to say, because religious-right Protestant goons used to always say it to me when I became old enough to see how backwards they were (which, was somewhere around 12-14, the atheist age), buuut, I believe that there is more evidence for God than many people would like to believe. Miracles still happen in places like Mt. Athos for example, several monks have levitated while praying without even knowing it, several Saints have seen the Uncreated Light etc. And several of these figures lived relatively recently. St. John the Wonderworker for example lived less than 100 years ago and worked all sorts of miracles that would seem to give atheists the "proof" that they desire so much for God, and several people who experienced them are still alive to this very day. I just think that many people are too busy to really look.
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