OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 22, 2014, 04:56:29 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Poll
Question: Why Do You Believe In God?
The Lives of Saints - 17 (8.7%)
The Witness of Martyrs - 19 (9.7%)
Historical Evidence - 18 (9.2%)
Science - 7 (3.6%)
The Bible - 17 (8.7%)
Miracles - 9 (4.6%)
Nature/Fine-Tuned Universe Argument - 13 (6.6%)
Other Philosophical Arguments - 16 (8.2%)
I Just Believe - 30 (15.3%)
A Personal Experience - 50 (25.5%)
Total Voters: 84

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why Do You Believe In God?  (Read 12732 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2009, 12:12:29 PM »

Ran across this quote in a document I have on my computer and thought I'd post it in this thread...

"The so-called logical evidence for the existence of God is: the cosmological, theological, psychological, historical, ethical proofs, and many more, which, through the passing of time have been formulated into philosophical rationalism. They cannot, in the Dogmatics of the Orthodox Church, have a value of real evidence because they are based on the principles of the relative, limited, sinful minds and senses of humanity. To the Church and the Revelation, the truth about the existence of God is an illogical and irrational hypothesis, which has the need of proof with the basis of logical reasoning, the truth which God has revealed to us, and is therefore the unquestionable, true evidence. As a divine and given reality, this truth is not dependent on proof and arguments from rational functions of the mind." - Fr. Justin Popovich, Orthodox Faith and Life in Christ, p. 202

Excellent quote, and I couldn't agree more!

I was brought to Orthodoxy by Fr. Meyendorf's comment that according to Orthodoxy, the natural religion of man is agnosticism, because finite man cannot conceive of the infinite God.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2009, 12:36:03 PM »

jnorm888,

Quote
Why did the family from which the exorcist movie was based believe in the existence of demons?
Why did the family from which the movie "the exorcism of Emily Rose" believe in the existence if demons?

They read the New Testament and took it seriously and literally, I would wager.

Quote
Why would anyone believe in the existence of something they can't see?

Oh, I'm sure we all believe in things we can't see. Gravity, for example. However, I would say that there's a difference between believing in something we can't see (gravity), and believing in something we have little to no evidence for (demons). While we can't "see" gravity, we can still see the consequences of it, and it is my understand that scientifically-inclined folk have a well-evidenced theory for how/why it works. The evidence for demons, on the other hand, has not done as well over the past 2,000 years.

Eh, we're not quite there yet, even on the 'how' part, sure we have solid theories for how it works on a medium and large scale, but while we are capable of measuring quantum gravity and have a few good hypotheses we don't yet have a good theory of quantum gravity. As for the why it works, we understand there is an interaction between matter and space-time and we can predict the results, but still lack a proven theory on the mechanics of the interaction, though we have a pretty good idea where to look: the Higgs bosons.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,425


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2009, 12:38:54 PM »

jnorm888,

Quote
Why did the family from which the exorcist movie was based believe in the existence of demons?
Why did the family from which the movie "the exorcism of Emily Rose" believe in the existence if demons?

They read the New Testament and took it seriously and literally, I would wager.

Quote
Why would anyone believe in the existence of something they can't see?

Oh, I'm sure we all believe in things we can't see. Gravity, for example. However, I would say that there's a difference between believing in something we can't see (gravity), and believing in something we have little to no evidence for (demons). While we can't "see" gravity, we can still see the consequences of it, and it is my understand that scientifically-inclined folk have a well-evidenced theory for how/why it works. The evidence for demons, on the other hand, has not done as well over the past 2,000 years.

Eh, we're not quite there yet, even on the 'how' part, sure we have solid theories for how it works on a medium and large scale, but while we are capable of measuring quantum gravity and have a few good hypotheses we don't yet have a good theory of quantum gravity. As for the why it works, we understand there is an interaction between matter and space-time and we can predict the results, but still lack a proven theory on the mechanics of the interaction, though we have a pretty good idea where to look: the Higgs bosons.
Oh Physics, the coolest of the sciences.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,485



« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2009, 12:43:12 PM »

For me it was more that I couldn't accept the existential implications of a world with no transcendent moral law. I wanted to be an atheist, but reasoned that it could only lead to nihilism and that ultimately any complaint I had about the "wrongness of wrong" had no teeth behind it.


For me, it was something similar, though not as intellectual. If there is no God, there is no point. Life is a meaningless series of random events, heartbreak, pain, suffering and ultimately death.
If there is no God, then we might as well get it over with as soon as possible.
There is no hope anywhere but in Him.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2009, 12:58:20 PM »

For me it was more that I couldn't accept the existential implications of a world with no transcendent moral law. I wanted to be an atheist, but reasoned that it could only lead to nihilism and that ultimately any complaint I had about the "wrongness of wrong" had no teeth behind it.


For me, it was something similar, though not as intellectual. If there is no God, there is no point. Life is a meaningless series of random events, heartbreak, pain, suffering and ultimately death.
If there is no God, then we might as well get it over with as soon as possible.
There is no hope anywhere but in Him.


That's a pretty morbid outlook of the world, there may be random events but there's also accomplishment, there's heartbreak but also love, there's pain (which is really a good thing, the physical type anyway, you don't want to be able to be able to slash through your arm and not feel a thing, good way to bleed to death) but there's also pleasure, there's suffering but also joy...and yes, there's death, but that just gives you more reason to enjoy each day to its fullest.

The main thing is to live this life to the fullest and enjoy every day, make the best of every moment, don't be held back by guilt or fear. Whether or not there's an afterlife, your life on this earth as a sentient being is a rare and unique opportunity, one should make the best of it.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,425


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2009, 01:00:20 PM »

For me it was more that I couldn't accept the existential implications of a world with no transcendent moral law. I wanted to be an atheist, but reasoned that it could only lead to nihilism and that ultimately any complaint I had about the "wrongness of wrong" had no teeth behind it.


For me, it was something similar, though not as intellectual. If there is no God, there is no point. Life is a meaningless series of random events, heartbreak, pain, suffering and ultimately death.
If there is no God, then we might as well get it over with as soon as possible.
There is no hope anywhere but in Him.


That's a pretty morbid outlook of the world, there may be random events but there's also accomplishment, there's heartbreak but also love, there's pain (which is really a good thing, the physical type anyway, you don't want to be able to be able to slash through your arm and not feel a thing, good way to bleed to death) but there's also pleasure, there's suffering but also joy...and yes, there's death, but that just gives you more reason to enjoy each day to its fullest.

The main thing is to live this life to the fullest and enjoy every day, make the best of every moment, don't be held back by guilt or fear. Whether or not there's an afterlife, your life on this earth as a sentient being is a rare and unique opportunity, one should make the best of it.
Why should anyone do anything?
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2009, 01:10:39 PM »

For me it was more that I couldn't accept the existential implications of a world with no transcendent moral law. I wanted to be an atheist, but reasoned that it could only lead to nihilism and that ultimately any complaint I had about the "wrongness of wrong" had no teeth behind it.


For me, it was something similar, though not as intellectual. If there is no God, there is no point. Life is a meaningless series of random events, heartbreak, pain, suffering and ultimately death.
If there is no God, then we might as well get it over with as soon as possible.
There is no hope anywhere but in Him.


That's a pretty morbid outlook of the world, there may be random events but there's also accomplishment, there's heartbreak but also love, there's pain (which is really a good thing, the physical type anyway, you don't want to be able to be able to slash through your arm and not feel a thing, good way to bleed to death) but there's also pleasure, there's suffering but also joy...and yes, there's death, but that just gives you more reason to enjoy each day to its fullest.

The main thing is to live this life to the fullest and enjoy every day, make the best of every moment, don't be held back by guilt or fear. Whether or not there's an afterlife, your life on this earth as a sentient being is a rare and unique opportunity, one should make the best of it.
Why should anyone do anything?

Just a friendly recommendation, but if you want to sit alone in the dark and wallow in misery, more power to you.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,485



« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2009, 01:22:20 PM »

Well, I for one am not wallowing in misery in the dark.

That's a false dichotomy.

However I learned a lesson early on - people you love die and it hurts. A lot.

Love is the point? Give me a break. What next? Sunshine and roses and whiskers on kittens?
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,425


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2009, 02:01:51 PM »

For me it was more that I couldn't accept the existential implications of a world with no transcendent moral law. I wanted to be an atheist, but reasoned that it could only lead to nihilism and that ultimately any complaint I had about the "wrongness of wrong" had no teeth behind it.


For me, it was something similar, though not as intellectual. If there is no God, there is no point. Life is a meaningless series of random events, heartbreak, pain, suffering and ultimately death.
If there is no God, then we might as well get it over with as soon as possible.
There is no hope anywhere but in Him.


That's a pretty morbid outlook of the world, there may be random events but there's also accomplishment, there's heartbreak but also love, there's pain (which is really a good thing, the physical type anyway, you don't want to be able to be able to slash through your arm and not feel a thing, good way to bleed to death) but there's also pleasure, there's suffering but also joy...and yes, there's death, but that just gives you more reason to enjoy each day to its fullest.

The main thing is to live this life to the fullest and enjoy every day, make the best of every moment, don't be held back by guilt or fear. Whether or not there's an afterlife, your life on this earth as a sentient being is a rare and unique opportunity, one should make the best of it.
Why should anyone do anything?

Just a friendly recommendation, but if you want to sit alone in the dark and wallow in misery, more power to you.
It just seems that the pain of loss (the death of friends and loved ones as well as the breaking of relationships) would make life unbearable for anyone who does not believe in God. The question then, is why should an atheist choose to go on living.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,536


« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2009, 02:19:22 PM »

Quote
The question then, is why should an atheist choose to go on living.

If there is no God, we have to make our own meaning in life. That meaning might include: the survival and prosperity of our species as a whole, a better life for those we love (e.g. our children), and happiness and productivity in our own life. Of course, most religious people would still say "What for? So what? What's the point? If there is no God, I don't see why people would care!"  I understand why some people think atheism should logically lead to nihilism: because for them without God there is no point to existence.
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,425


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2009, 02:36:17 PM »

Quote
The question then, is why should an atheist choose to go on living.

If there is no God, we have to make our own meaning in life. That meaning might include: the survival and prosperity of our species as a whole, a better life for those we love (e.g. our children), and happiness and productivity in our own life. Of course, most religious people would still say "What for? So what? What's the point? If there is no God, I don't see why people would care!"  I understand why some people think atheism should logically lead to nihilism: because for them without God there is no point to existence.
I don't see how it doesn't lead to nihilism.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,536


« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2009, 02:39:51 PM »

Before I came into this thread to read your response I said to myself "He's going to say 'I don't understand how it would have any meaning'". Well, I came close Grin
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,425


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2009, 02:43:22 PM »

Before I came into this thread to read your response I said to myself "He's going to say 'I don't understand how it would have any meaning'". Well, I came close Grin
Grin I think the atheist has to create some kind of blind faith in "meaning" in order to have meaning in his or her life.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 02:43:59 PM by Papist » Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2009, 03:06:50 PM »

Before I came into this thread to read your response I said to myself "He's going to say 'I don't understand how it would have any meaning'". Well, I came close Grin
Grin I think the atheist has to create some kind of blind faith in "meaning" in order to have meaning in his or her life.
You mean hedonism?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,536


« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2009, 03:15:39 PM »

Quote
I think the atheist has to create some kind of blind faith in "meaning" in order to have meaning in his or her life.

I think you might be on to something with the "blind faith" thing, though I would say it's an assumptive opinion rather than blind faith.
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,425


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2009, 03:26:56 PM »

Quote
I think the atheist has to create some kind of blind faith in "meaning" in order to have meaning in his or her life.

I think you might be on to something with the "blind faith" thing, though I would say it's an assumptive opinion rather than blind faith.
Semantics
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,536


« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2009, 03:40:08 PM »

Not really, at least in how I would use the terms. Blind faith would be a leap of faith based on very little data or evidence, or in the face of a large body of contrary evidence. An assumptive opinion would be a view which is based on a moderate amount of experience and reason, but would nonetheless be an opinion which has not been demonstrated to the extent that it could be called a fact.
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,425


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2009, 03:43:18 PM »

Not really, at least in how I would use the terms. Blind faith would be a leap of faith based on very little data or evidence, or in the face of a large body of contrary evidence. An assumptive opinion would be a view which is based on a moderate amount of experience and reason, but would nonetheless be an opinion which has not been demonstrated to the extent that it could be called a fact.
Semantics when applied to the current situation. There is absolutely no evidence of there being any standard for applying meaning to the life of an atheist.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2009, 05:37:27 PM »

Not really, at least in how I would use the terms. Blind faith would be a leap of faith based on very little data or evidence, or in the face of a large body of contrary evidence. An assumptive opinion would be a view which is based on a moderate amount of experience and reason, but would nonetheless be an opinion which has not been demonstrated to the extent that it could be called a fact.
Semantics when applied to the current situation. There is absolutely no evidence of there being any standard for applying meaning to the life of an atheist.

Every individual gets to choose what gives their life meaning; but in the end, it all comes down to pleasure. We're all hedonists in the end, I seek pleasure in the here and now, some seek pleasure in a future existence, some get pleasure out of helping others, some get pleasure out of hurting others, some get pleasure from creating and discovering, some get pleasure from destroying, some get pleasure in serving, some get pleasure in ruling. But, in the end, we're all hedonists, no matter how we try to dress it up, how we try to justify it, how we try to explain it, everyone, regardless of belief, finds the meaning of their life in hedonism...some are just more honest about it than others.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,485



« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2009, 05:39:57 PM »

Quote
I think the atheist has to create some kind of blind faith in "meaning" in order to have meaning in his or her life.

I think you might be on to something with the "blind faith" thing, though I would say it's an assumptive opinion rather than blind faith.

Sometimes it seems to me that people I disagree with have "blind faith."
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2009, 05:43:29 PM »

For me it was more that I couldn't accept the existential implications of a world with no transcendent moral law. I wanted to be an atheist, but reasoned that it could only lead to nihilism and that ultimately any complaint I had about the "wrongness of wrong" had no teeth behind it.


For me, it was something similar, though not as intellectual. If there is no God, there is no point. Life is a meaningless series of random events, heartbreak, pain, suffering and ultimately death.
If there is no God, then we might as well get it over with as soon as possible.
There is no hope anywhere but in Him.


That's a pretty morbid outlook of the world, there may be random events but there's also accomplishment, there's heartbreak but also love, there's pain (which is really a good thing, the physical type anyway, you don't want to be able to be able to slash through your arm and not feel a thing, good way to bleed to death) but there's also pleasure, there's suffering but also joy...and yes, there's death, but that just gives you more reason to enjoy each day to its fullest.

The main thing is to live this life to the fullest and enjoy every day, make the best of every moment, don't be held back by guilt or fear. Whether or not there's an afterlife, your life on this earth as a sentient being is a rare and unique opportunity, one should make the best of it.
Why should anyone do anything?

Just a friendly recommendation, but if you want to sit alone in the dark and wallow in misery, more power to you.
It just seems that the pain of loss (the death of friends and loved ones as well as the breaking of relationships) would make life unbearable for anyone who does not believe in God. The question then, is why should an atheist choose to go on living.
It seems to me that it's not so much the idea of "God" that would temper the pain of loss or the unbearability of life, as it is the idea of "justice" beyond this life.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2009, 05:58:26 PM »

For me it was more that I couldn't accept the existential implications of a world with no transcendent moral law. I wanted to be an atheist, but reasoned that it could only lead to nihilism and that ultimately any complaint I had about the "wrongness of wrong" had no teeth behind it.


For me, it was something similar, though not as intellectual. If there is no God, there is no point. Life is a meaningless series of random events, heartbreak, pain, suffering and ultimately death.
If there is no God, then we might as well get it over with as soon as possible.
There is no hope anywhere but in Him.


That's a pretty morbid outlook of the world, there may be random events but there's also accomplishment, there's heartbreak but also love, there's pain (which is really a good thing, the physical type anyway, you don't want to be able to be able to slash through your arm and not feel a thing, good way to bleed to death) but there's also pleasure, there's suffering but also joy...and yes, there's death, but that just gives you more reason to enjoy each day to its fullest.

The main thing is to live this life to the fullest and enjoy every day, make the best of every moment, don't be held back by guilt or fear. Whether or not there's an afterlife, your life on this earth as a sentient being is a rare and unique opportunity, one should make the best of it.
Why should anyone do anything?

Just a friendly recommendation, but if you want to sit alone in the dark and wallow in misery, more power to you.
It just seems that the pain of loss (the death of friends and loved ones as well as the breaking of relationships) would make life unbearable for anyone who does not believe in God. The question then, is why should an atheist choose to go on living.

I don't believe that life isn't as bad as you paint it. Sure, there are losses and they can hurt, but the pain lessens with time. We're amazingly adaptable, we tend to be able to adapt to nearly any situation. And at the same time, without the possibility of loss we'd never truly be able to appreciate those we love, we wouldn't be able to value our time spent with them to the degree we do, there has to be dichotomy to enjoy life. You can't truly appreciate the heights of joy without having known the depths of sorrow, without pain pleasure isn't something wonderful, it's just the boring norm.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2009, 03:57:44 AM »

Quote
They read the New Testament and took it seriously and literally, I would wager.

What about their experience? I chose those two examples for a reason.

You can't deny their experience, and in 2,000 years they weren't the only ones who personaly experienced such things.



Where there is smoke there is fire.









ICXC NIKA
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,536


« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2009, 04:00:03 AM »

Quote
What about their experience? I chose those two examples for a reason.

You can't deny their experience, and in 2,000 years they weren't the only ones who personaly experienced such things.

I don't deny that they may have experienced something. Speculation that it was demons I am not so keen on.
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2009, 04:09:39 AM »

For me it was more that I couldn't accept the existential implications of a world with no transcendent moral law. I wanted to be an atheist, but reasoned that it could only lead to nihilism and that ultimately any complaint I had about the "wrongness of wrong" had no teeth behind it.


For me, it was something similar, though not as intellectual. If there is no God, there is no point. Life is a meaningless series of random events, heartbreak, pain, suffering and ultimately death.
If there is no God, then we might as well get it over with as soon as possible.
There is no hope anywhere but in Him.


That's a pretty morbid outlook of the world, there may be random events but there's also accomplishment, there's heartbreak but also love, there's pain (which is really a good thing, the physical type anyway, you don't want to be able to be able to slash through your arm and not feel a thing, good way to bleed to death) but there's also pleasure, there's suffering but also joy...and yes, there's death, but that just gives you more reason to enjoy each day to its fullest.

The main thing is to live this life to the fullest and enjoy every day, make the best of every moment, don't be held back by guilt or fear. Whether or not there's an afterlife, your life on this earth as a sentient being is a rare and unique opportunity, one should make the best of it.

How can you know for sure what an accomplishment, heartbreak, love, joy, and the good is if there is no meaning to ones existence?

It would seem that all of these things would be relative/subjective.


If there is no meaning to life then no one has a right to tell anyone what to do. Nor can anyone get upset at someone else for doing something they don't like.

So at the end of the day, it will all come down to "might is right".








ICXC NIKA
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2009, 04:25:39 AM »

Quote
What about their experience? I chose those two examples for a reason.

You can't deny their experience, and in 2,000 years they weren't the only ones who personaly experienced such things.

I don't deny that they may have experienced something. Speculation that it was demons I am not so keen on.

Do you deny that what they were dealing with was an " invisible living personal intelligence" that happened to be evil?







ICXC NIKA
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 04:30:47 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,536


« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2009, 04:30:04 AM »

Quote
Do you deny that what they were dealing with was a "living personal transient intelligence" that happened to be evil?

In my non-Orthodox opinion, I'd have to say that I'm not familiar enough with the situation to know. Though generally I wouldn't say that some entity was evil, only (if that entity exists) that they chose to commit evil.
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2009, 04:32:27 AM »

I voted for "A Personal Experience."
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2009, 04:32:47 AM »

Quote
Do you deny that what they were dealing with was a "living personal transient intelligence" that happened to be evil?

In my non-Orthodox opinion, I'd have to say that I'm not familiar enough with the situation to know. Though generally I wouldn't say that some entity was evil, only (if that entity exists) that they chose to commit evil.

Nevermind, I give up.








ICXC NIKA
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,485



« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2009, 11:28:06 AM »

Sure, there are losses and they can hurt, but the pain lessens with time...And at the same time, without the possibility of loss we'd never truly be able to appreciate those we love, we wouldn't be able to value our time spent with them to the degree we do, there has to be dichotomy to enjoy life. You can't truly appreciate the heights of joy without having known the depths of sorrow, without pain pleasure isn't something wonderful, it's just the boring norm.

You know, at some of the worst and darkest times of my life, some well-meaning folks told me something similar. For me personally, it was a load then and it's a load now. I would definitely choose the boring norm, if I could.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,485



« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2009, 11:31:10 AM »

Quote
It seems to me that it's not so much the idea of "God" that would temper the pain of loss or the unbearability of life, as it is the idea of "justice" beyond this life.

Not even justice - just meaning. If all this is simply random events, then it is meaningless.
One of the things that resonates most with me about Christianity is that it takes suffering seriously.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2009, 04:58:33 PM »

One of the things that resonates most with me about Christianity is that it takes suffering seriously.

I don't exactly understand this point.  Christianity takes suffering seriously as opposed to?
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,485



« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2009, 05:01:11 PM »

Buddhism, perhaps?
or Hinduism?
(with the caveat, of course, as I understand them. I realize that these are complex belief systems.)
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2009, 12:20:37 AM »

Quote
It seems to me that it's not so much the idea of "God" that would temper the pain of loss or the unbearability of life, as it is the idea of "justice" beyond this life.

Not even justice - just meaning. If all this is simply random events, then it is meaningless.
One of the things that resonates most with me about Christianity is that it takes suffering seriously.

And if everything is meaningless then any attempt to give meaning to ones life is nothing more than an illusion.

If the meaning to ones life is an illusion.

Then the tendency to slide into hedonism will be hard to resist. And we know hedonism doesn't mix to well with the idea that we must suffer.

Thus, no pain no gain!








ICXC NIKA
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2009, 12:33:18 AM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God, and that without said God, self-indulgence would be such a likely side-effect.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Alveus Lacuna
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,968



« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2009, 12:34:35 AM »

I would say Buddhism takes suffering as a condition seriously, as one of the main aims of the religious system is to 'escape' suffering through detachment.
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2009, 01:11:42 AM »

I would say Buddhism takes suffering as a condition seriously, as one of the main aims of the religious system is to 'escape' suffering through detachment.

True, they do take suffering very seriously.











ICXC NIKA
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2009, 02:08:39 AM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God, and that without said God, self-indulgence would be such a likely side-effect.

Without God, life is void of any real meaning, significance, value, dignity, and worth.

Without transcendence one is left with nothing but pure naturalism.

In such a world nothing can really have true value and meaning.

In such a world, one is nothing more than a lifeless, meaningless, worthless, insignificant, and purposeless micro-machine of the Universe looking back at itself.








ICXC NIKA
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 02:24:59 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,496


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2009, 02:41:40 AM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God, and that without said God, self-indulgence would be such a likely side-effect.

Without God, life is void of any real meaning, significance, value, dignity, and worth.

Without transcendence one is left with nothing but pure naturalism.

In such a world nothing can really have true value and meaning.

In such a world, one is nothing more than a lifeless, meaningless, worthless, insignificant, and purposeless micro-machine of the Universe looking back at itself.








ICXC NIKA

Well put!

If there is no God, then human beings are merely material objects to be used for selfish gain. Capitalistic exploitation, slavery, prostitution, abortion, adultery, war, poverty, and pornography cannot be objectively condemned. In the absence of God, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," becomes "Do unto others whatever gives you personal pleasure."

Selam
Logged

"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,485



« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2009, 10:07:20 AM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God

Then please demonstrate to me, logically and objectively, what meaning there is to life, except what you or I arbitrarily assign to it.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,485



« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2009, 10:08:14 AM »

I would say Buddhism takes suffering as a condition seriously, as one of the main aims of the religious system is to 'escape' suffering through detachment.

That is not taking it seriously - that is, as you so astutely point out, escaping from it.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Alveus Lacuna
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,968



« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2009, 01:04:43 PM »

That is not taking it seriously - that is, as you so astutely point out, escaping from it.

Thumbs down, and a boo to you as well.

That's like saying that Christians don't take suffering seriously because we hope for the full restoration of creation and the end of suffering.  Theosis is also an escape from our present condition.  I also put 'escape' in quotes for a reason.  It's not necessarily the best term to describe what happens, just one way of putting it.
Logged
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,485



« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2009, 01:45:27 PM »


Thumbs down, and a boo to you as well.



I don't understand the above.

By taking it seriously, I mean acknowledging that suffering exists and that it is not an illusion. That this is not the way God meant the world to be - that something has gone very wrong.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2009, 01:58:49 PM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God

Then please demonstrate to me, logically and objectively, what meaning there is to life, except what you or I arbitrarily assign to it.

Something I honestly don't understand, why this obsession with meaning? Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it even matter if life has a meaning? Can't we just enjoy each moment for what it is and when it passes, it passes.

Foie gras tastes just as good whether life has meaning or not, sex is just as pleasurable whether life has meaning or not, the Riemann Hypothesis is just as intriguing whether life has meaning or not...well, maybe that last one is unique to a small subset of the population, but you get my point. How does 'meaning' change any of these things? I don't really understand how 'meaning' would add any value to life.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,485



« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2009, 03:36:49 PM »

It is really a shame you see no meaning to life without a God

Then please demonstrate to me, logically and objectively, what meaning there is to life, except what you or I arbitrarily assign to it.

Something I honestly don't understand, why this obsession with meaning? Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it even matter if life has a meaning? Can't we just enjoy each moment for what it is and when it passes, it passes.

Foie gras tastes just as good whether life has meaning or not, sex is just as pleasurable whether life has meaning or not, the Riemann Hypothesis is just as intriguing whether life has meaning or not...well, maybe that last one is unique to a small subset of the population, but you get my point. How does 'meaning' change any of these things? I don't really understand how 'meaning' would add any value to life.

Fine, if you can live with the idea that your life is meaningless and you don't matter at all, more power to you. It's probably just a personality disorder of mine anyway, to think that, for example, sex is more pleasurable with someone you love and have a relationship with (i.e. "meaning").
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.151 seconds with 74 queries.