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Author Topic: Quran texts appear on baby's body in Dagestan  (Read 13296 times) Average Rating: 0
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Theophilos78
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« Reply #90 on: July 13, 2010, 04:18:21 PM »


There's nothing in the fundamentals of Islam that is unbiblical.

Another joke of the day!  Thanks for the laugh. laugh

Mohammad, the only guy you follow and consider the last prophet, is not a biblical figure. Islam has nothing to do with the Bible. It is an invention and innovation.

The Bible says God made His covenant with Isaac and his seed. The promised Messiah came from the same lineage. Mohammad is not included into the prophetic line.


Islam was able to maintain its unity and purity as it spread in space and as times went on, some which can't be said about Christianity. Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practice the religion according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of the Nation's scholars.

So what? Islam is a false religion. Majority of the Meccans worshipped idols in the past. Should we conclude that what those many Meccans practiced was something good? Numbers hardly prove anything.

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

If it was for Christianity, even if we were to assume that it's God's Religion, the message would completely disappear.


Christ established a Church and promised to preserve His message. He said He would be with us until the end of ages. Your Islamic faith makes you declare Jesus a liar now. Stop paying lip service to Christ.
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« Reply #91 on: July 13, 2010, 04:23:51 PM »


There's nothing in the fundamentals of Islam that is unbiblical.

Another joke of the day!  Thanks for the laugh. laugh

Mohammad, the only guy you follow and consider the last prophet, is not a biblical figure. Islam has nothing to do with the Bible. It is an invention and innovation.

The Bible says God made His covenant with Isaac and his seed. The promised Messiah came from the same lineage. Mohammad is not included into the prophetic line.


Islam was able to maintain its unity and purity as it spread in space and as times went on, some which can't be said about Christianity. Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practice the religion according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of the Nation's scholars.

So what? Islam is a false religion. Majority of the Meccans worshipped idols in the past. Should we conclude that what those many Meccans practiced was something good? Numbers hardly prove anything.

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

If it was for Christianity, even if we were to assume that it's God's Religion, the message would completely disappear.


Christ established a Church and promised to preserve His message. He said He would be with us until the end of ages. Your Islamic faith makes you declare Jesus a liar now. Stop paying lip service to Christ.


Christ is indeed with us.
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Theophilos78
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« Reply #92 on: July 13, 2010, 04:25:30 PM »


Did you know that Jews consider Christians, unlike Muslims, to be heathens? True story.

So what? I consider Muslims, unlike Jews, heathens.

More, Jews agree with Christians that Mohammad was a false prophet. Do you agree if what Jews say about others is so significant for you?


Islamic theology wen to on to have such great influence that major Christian and Jewish theologians like Maimonides and Aquinas were greatly influenced by Muslim writers.

This does not make Mohammad a true prophet in the eyes of Jews and Christians.

Beware! You are calling hedonistic the man who never missed a prayer (as hard as it is to do so concerning Islamic canonical prayer), not only that but he spent hours upon hours in non-canonical prayer every day. The man who spent days upon days eating nothing but rough bread, the man who never had fancy clothings nor build a mansion for himself even though he could have anything he wanted as was the ruler of all Arabia.

You are talking of Mohammad as if he led the life of a Christian monk.  Grin

The Qur'an testifies to his hedonistic philosophy.

Mohammad changed for the worse after his first wife's death. Freedom turned him into a man who gave priority to sex, money, and fame/power.
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« Reply #93 on: July 13, 2010, 04:41:52 PM »

So what? I consider Muslims, unlike Jews, heathens.

More, Jews agree with Christians that Mohammad was a false prophet. Do you agree if what Jews say about others is so significant for you?

It's just you mentioned Jews so I thought I should remind you that you are considered heathen by the people whose book is the OT.

Quote
This does not make Mohammad a true prophet in the eyes of Jews and Christians.

It makes Islam a strongly based and well build Religion in their eyes.


You are talking of Mohammad as if he led the life of a Christian monk.  Grin

He was was piety and devotion incarnate.

Quote
Mohammad changed for the worse after his first wife's death. Freedom turned him into a man who gave priority to sex, money, and fame/power.

Have you read what I wrote? He would pray until his feet are swollen. I said he spends day with nothing but bread, he would spend other days without eating whatsoever.

He was the ruler of all Arabia and he could have anything he wanted from his riches, yet guess what he left as physical inheritance, he left a mule, some ammunition and a piece of land that he gave as gift before his death.

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ialmisry
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« Reply #94 on: July 13, 2010, 05:25:04 PM »

Nothing for me to add. Though I'd like it if you could specify which is the misspelling you found in the picture, or if you were just mistaken.

You got it:
There's no misspelling there, the text in the image is  لو تعلمون ما أعلم لضحكتم قليلا ولبكيتم كثيرا, which means If you would know know what I know you youl've laughed a little and cried a lot (personal translation), and it's part of a hadith, perhaps he has the Quran passages elsewhere. The two letters ضح in the middle of the sentence are not clear due to the skin in the knee area.
though it still doesn't look like  لضحكتم  to me. But as I said, and you agree, it's not clear.

Tamam, afandem. Smiley

edit: Do you know what's the etymology of afandem? It doesn't seem to be Turkish

It's Greek, but via Turkish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effendi
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Theophilos78
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« Reply #95 on: July 13, 2010, 05:25:50 PM »


It's just you mentioned Jews so I thought I should remind you that you are considered heathen by the people whose book is the OT.

I did not talk about Jews alone. I said both Jews and Christians considered and still consider Mohammad a false prophet. You are the one who recurrently refers to Jews and Judaism here.


It makes Islam a strongly based and well build Religion in their eyes.

Not in my eyes. I am Christian.  Cheesy


He was was piety and devotion incarnate.

You are free to assume so. I cannot confirm what you say as I know the Qur'an.

Have you read what I wrote? He would pray until his feet are swollen. I said he spends day with nothing but bread, he would spend other days without eating whatsoever.

What does this prove? A false prophet is a false prophet even if he lives like monks.

He was the ruler of all Arabia and he could have anything he wanted from his riches, yet guess what he left as physical inheritance, he left a mule, some ammunition and a piece of land that he gave as gift before his death.

Why don't you reckon what he had when he was alive?

He had many wives, concubines, an army, many people serving him, fame, and authority. What else could he need?  Roll Eyes
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ialmisry
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« Reply #96 on: July 13, 2010, 05:39:50 PM »

The followers of Mohammed only understand Christianity as it was given them by their own leaders and teachers to understand, not as it actually is. One can find corroborative, historical evidence of the witness of Orthodox Christianity, the writing of the Scriptures, and the teaching of the apostles and their successors from non-partisan studies. So, we'll ask them to do what we ask the Jews to do (produce the body). Let the followers of Mohammed produce actual evidence of their claims that there was corruption in the way they claim, or else let them worship Christ with us, for it was not a mere man who was born without seed from the Ever-Virgin Mary, but the Son of God, equal to the Father in all things, as it was revealed to us by Christ and his holy apostles. Otherwise, there can be no real conversation.

The evidence is Christianity itself, a non-Biblical religion that produced deviation after deviation to the degree that there are Churches by thousands now, all of them based on doctrines that an Israelites would clench for merely hearing them. The nature of this religion allow for the satanic, hedonistic modern world to be Born out of its womb.
All the first Christians were Hebrews, who proclaimed it to the ends of the Earth from Jerusalem. Their writings survive.  We follow them to this day.  We have added nothing to them, nor taken anything from them.  As for churches by the thousands, thank the Protestants, who haven't been around for a millenium yet, and make up only a third of Christians today.

As for hedonism, read Abu Nuwas. Or look at the pictures in the Umayyad castles  Shocked Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #97 on: July 13, 2010, 06:39:56 PM »

The followers of Mohammed only understand Christianity as it was given them by their own leaders and teachers to understand, not as it actually is. One can find corroborative, historical evidence of the witness of Orthodox Christianity, the writing of the Scriptures, and the teaching of the apostles and their successors from non-partisan studies. So, we'll ask them to do what we ask the Jews to do (produce the body). Let the followers of Mohammed produce actual evidence of their claims that there was corruption in the way they claim, or else let them worship Christ with us, for it was not a mere man who was born without seed from the Ever-Virgin Mary, but the Son of God, equal to the Father in all things, as it was revealed to us by Christ and his holy apostles. Otherwise, there can be no real conversation.

The evidence is Christianity itself, a non-Biblical religion that produced deviation after deviation to the degree that there are Churches by thousands now, all of them based on doctrines that an Israelites would clench for merely hearing them. The nature of this religion allow for the satanic, hedonistic modern world to be Born out of its womb.

Which you feel obligated to destroy in a blood bath.... yada yada

Yawn

Like  with all doubters it's the Resurrection that is the major sticking point .But there are only a few possibilities.

1. The Romans stole the Body
2. The Jews stole the Body
3. The Apostles stole the Body

If either the Jews or the Romans had stolen the body, at some point, just Apostles  were proclaiming the Resurrection, they certainly would have said. "Nope, here he is" and dumped the Body in front of them..... thus ending Christianity' forever.

If the Apostles themselves had stolen the body, they would not have given their very lives, via extreme torture, beheading, burning, crucifixion and skinning alive for a fraud. The second the knife cuts into your skin you would confess. None of them did that. Not one. They all went to their deaths happy in the knowledge of their salvation.

On the other hand, Muhammad heard voices that dictated various prophecies and regulations to him... Okay..umm..Is that all ya got? Anyone can claim that.

Christians have something called "Corroboration"... look it up. I am glad Muhammad prayed every day. So did Joseph Smith.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 06:40:57 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #98 on: July 13, 2010, 07:23:51 PM »

Mekki, based on the flimsy evidence you provided, one can say the same of Mohammedanism.

There's nothing in the fundamentals of Islam that is unbiblical.

Shahadah: the Bible says nothing on Muhammad, and Muhammad calls the Bible corrupt.

Hajj: to a place of no importance at all to the Bible. Contradicts the OT in refusing to go the one place of worship, and the NT in refusing the true Temple (sidenote: the histories of Mecca record that in the Ka'bah was an icon of Abraham and Jacob, and of the Theotokos and Christ.  When the Muslims conquered Mecca, Muhammad covered the icon with his body, and ordered "destroy everything else."  It remained there at least until the Muslims destroyed the Ka'bah the first time in their second fitna (civil war), around the time they built the dome of the rock (c. 690).

Salah: in a direction meaningless to the Bible, doing a ritual modeled after the Church's 7 hours of prayer but replacing the Biblical texts.

Sawm: fast based on no biblical event, but on the reception of a text intended to surplant the Bible.

Zakah: the piety of the Pharisee, rejecting the charity of the widow and her mite.

Quote
Islam was able to maintain its unity and purity as it spread in space and as times went on,

Islam couldn't maintain its purity in Muhammad's lifetime, and invented the idea of "abrogation" of scripture to excuese that, let alone the innovations of his companions, who have not been united at least form the time of his contemporary 'Uthman (656).

Quote
some which can't be said about Christianity.

We celebrate it every Sunday of Orthodoxy, that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church has not changed since the time of Christ's Ascenion, and will not change till His return.


Quote
Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practice the religion according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of the Nation's scholars.

That number has ebbed and flowed, and if it meant anything, why are you Maliki, when only 15% of Muslims are?

Quote
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

You couldn't, despite the Umayyads buring as many varients as they could get their hands on, guard the Quran from corruption: your qira'at Warsh in Morrocco isn't the same as that of Hafs, used in Cairo (and most of the Muslim world).

Quote
If it was for Christianity, even if we were to assume that it's God's Religion, the message would completely disappear.


It's has over a third of mankind for over a century.  According to al-Jaziirah, every year 6 million Muslims come for baptism.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php

Quote
Decadent Protestantism account for as much as half of Christians,

Protestants have never accouted for half of Christians, and it doesn't look like, the way a lot are coming to the Orthodox and the Vatican, they ever will. And most are not decadent, by any sane sense of the word.

Quote
while Orthodoxy and Catholicism have given in to the the modern secularist, humanist doctrines, all Traditionalist movements withing the two sects are looked upon in contempt by the overwhelming majority of both both clergy and laymen.

LOL. Ever hear, for instance, Met. Hilarion of Vienna? He's being preened for next Patriarch of the Russian Church, the largest in Orthodoxy.

http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2010/05/a-holy-alliance-between-rome-and-moscow-is-born/
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2008/02/bishop-hilarion-alfeyev-liberal-christianity-will-not-survive-for-a-long-time/

As for the Vatican, did you hear cardinal Ratzinger's speech before his election?


Quote
Hardly any Christian takes his religion seriously. Such basics of the religion as celibacy before marriage are regarded as a great curiosity.

That's a rather broad brush, and a dangerous one: I've lived in the Muslim world, and know a lot of Morrocans in fact. I'll leave it at that.

Quote
It is absolutely inconceivable any Christian country will witness a Christian revival,

LOL. Your wishful thinking is getting the better of you. Seen what is going on in Russia? Ukraine? Did you see Pope JP II's funeral?


Or [St.] Pavle of Serbia?

Holy Patriarch Pavle, pray for us!

See that Church? It is built on the spot where your crown, the Turks, burned the relics of Pat. Pavle's predecessor, St.Sava.  Sinan Pasha, who dared the sacrilege, was defeated thereafter at Călugăreni, and died within the year, and the beginning of the decline of the Ottomans began.

Quote
the concept of the "Church" as was known before is now regarded as a part of medieval history that can never be resurrected.

Stalin asked how many divisions the pope had, and Khrushchev said he would put the last Russian Orthodox priest on TV to show the end of superstition.



Things didn't work out to plan.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #99 on: July 13, 2010, 07:26:18 PM »


There's nothing in the fundamentals of Islam that is unbiblical.

Another joke of the day!  Thanks for the laugh. laugh

Mohammad, the only guy you follow and consider the last prophet, is not a biblical figure. Islam has nothing to do with the Bible. It is an invention and innovation.

The Bible says God made His covenant with Isaac and his seed. The promised Messiah came from the same lineage. Mohammad is not included into the prophetic line.


Islam was able to maintain its unity and purity as it spread in space and as times went on, some which can't be said about Christianity. Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practice the religion according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of the Nation's scholars.

So what? Islam is a false religion. Majority of the Meccans worshipped idols in the past. Should we conclude that what those many Meccans practiced was something good? Numbers hardly prove anything.

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

If it was for Christianity, even if we were to assume that it's God's Religion, the message would completely disappear.


Christ established a Church and promised to preserve His message. He said He would be with us until the end of ages. Your Islamic faith makes you declare Jesus a liar now. Stop paying lip service to Christ.


Christ is indeed with us.
So you confess Christ as God in the flesh. Matthew 1:23.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2010, 11:55:00 PM »

LOL. Your wishful thinking is getting the better of you. Seen what is going on in Russia? Ukraine? Did you see Pope JP II's funeral?

Not only in Russia and Ukraine but all of the Orthodox countries are seeing a renewal of Christian Faith after years of oppression under the atheist Soviet regime. I spoke with someone who recently returned from Romania and she was amazed by the piety of the people where she was. She saw many people go to the church every morning and go back in the afternoon and evening to pray. She also said how she could hardly fit into the church for the feast of the Apostles because of the number of people. I've heard similar accounts from Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, etc.

Mekki, you have some strong views on the piety of Christians which you have never experienced yourself so how can you understand?

« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 11:58:18 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
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« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2010, 10:54:55 AM »

Mekki, based on the flimsy evidence you provided, one can say the same of Mohammedanism.

There's nothing in the fundamentals of Islam that is unbiblical.

Shahadah: the Bible says nothing on Muhammad, and Muhammad calls the Bible corrupt.

Hajj: to a place of no importance at all to the Bible. Contradicts the OT in refusing to go the one place of worship, and the NT in refusing the true Temple (sidenote: the histories of Mecca record that in the Ka'bah was an icon of Abraham and Jacob, and of the Theotokos and Christ.  When the Muslims conquered Mecca, Muhammad covered the icon with his body, and ordered "destroy everything else."  It remained there at least until the Muslims destroyed the Ka'bah the first time in their second fitna (civil war), around the time they built the dome of the rock (c. 690).

Salah: in a direction meaningless to the Bible, doing a ritual modeled after the Church's 7 hours of prayer but replacing the Biblical texts.

Sawm: fast based on no biblical event, but on the reception of a text intended to surplant the Bible.

Zakah: the piety of the Pharisee, rejecting the charity of the widow and her mite.

Quote
Islam was able to maintain its unity and purity as it spread in space and as times went on,

Islam couldn't maintain its purity in Muhammad's lifetime, and invented the idea of "abrogation" of scripture to excuese that, let alone the innovations of his companions, who have not been united at least form the time of his contemporary 'Uthman (656).

Quote
some which can't be said about Christianity.

We celebrate it every Sunday of Orthodoxy, that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church has not changed since the time of Christ's Ascenion, and will not change till His return.


Quote
Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practice the religion according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of the Nation's scholars.

That number has ebbed and flowed, and if it meant anything, why are you Maliki, when only 15% of Muslims are?

Quote
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

You couldn't, despite the Umayyads buring as many varients as they could get their hands on, guard the Quran from corruption: your qira'at Warsh in Morrocco isn't the same as that of Hafs, used in Cairo (and most of the Muslim world).

Quote
If it was for Christianity, even if we were to assume that it's God's Religion, the message would completely disappear.


It's has over a third of mankind for over a century.  According to al-Jaziirah, every year 6 million Muslims come for baptism.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php

Quote
Decadent Protestantism account for as much as half of Christians,

Protestants have never accouted for half of Christians, and it doesn't look like, the way a lot are coming to the Orthodox and the Vatican, they ever will. And most are not decadent, by any sane sense of the word.

Quote
while Orthodoxy and Catholicism have given in to the the modern secularist, humanist doctrines, all Traditionalist movements withing the two sects are looked upon in contempt by the overwhelming majority of both both clergy and laymen.

LOL. Ever hear, for instance, Met. Hilarion of Vienna? He's being preened for next Patriarch of the Russian Church, the largest in Orthodoxy.

http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2010/05/a-holy-alliance-between-rome-and-moscow-is-born/
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2008/02/bishop-hilarion-alfeyev-liberal-christianity-will-not-survive-for-a-long-time/

As for the Vatican, did you hear cardinal Ratzinger's speech before his election?


Quote
Hardly any Christian takes his religion seriously. Such basics of the religion as celibacy before marriage are regarded as a great curiosity.

That's a rather broad brush, and a dangerous one: I've lived in the Muslim world, and know a lot of Morrocans in fact. I'll leave it at that.

Quote
It is absolutely inconceivable any Christian country will witness a Christian revival,

LOL. Your wishful thinking is getting the better of you. Seen what is going on in Russia? Ukraine? Did you see Pope JP II's funeral?


Or [St.] Pavle of Serbia?

Holy Patriarch Pavle, pray for us!

See that Church? It is built on the spot where your crown, the Turks, burned the relics of Pat. Pavle's predecessor, St.Sava.  Sinan Pasha, who dared the sacrilege, was defeated thereafter at Călugăreni, and died within the year, and the beginning of the decline of the Ottomans began.

Quote
the concept of the "Church" as was known before is now regarded as a part of medieval history that can never be resurrected.

Stalin asked how many divisions the pope had, and Khrushchev said he would put the last Russian Orthodox priest on TV to show the end of superstition.



Things didn't work out to plan.



Tip of the month: Don't mess with Isa.
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« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2010, 01:16:17 PM »

Shahadah: the Bible says nothing on Muhammad, and Muhammad calls the Bible corrupt.

The shahada is testifying that none and nothing is worthy of worship and submission but God, and that Mohammed's message calls for just that in the correct manner.

Quote
Hajj: to a place of no importance at all to the Bible. Contradicts the OT in refusing to go the one place of worship, and the NT in refusing the true Temple (sidenote: the histories of Mecca record that in the Ka'bah was an icon of Abraham and Jacob, and of the Theotokos and Christ.  When the Muslims conquered Mecca, Muhammad covered the icon with his body, and ordered "destroy everything else."  It remained there at least until the Muslims destroyed the Ka'bah the first time in their second fitna (civil war), around the time they built the dome of the rock (c. 690).

You and your revisionist history! There's nothing about making pilgrimage to Mecca that goes against the Religion of the Prophets. The Religion of one for all Prophets and Nations, but Laws and obligation and permissions are different.  Even hinting that this might not be true from any aspect will be destroying the very foundation of Christianity.

Quote
Salah: in a direction meaningless to the Bible, doing a ritual modeled after the Church's 7 hours of prayer but replacing the Biblical texts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg

Quote
Sawm: fast based on no biblical event, but on the reception of a text intended to surplant the Bible.

Until today, Jews fast the exact same way Muslims do, though in different days.

Quote
Zakah: the piety of the Pharisee, rejecting the charity of the widow and her mite.

Muslims are encouraged to live only by the necessary, everything else should be alms in all its forms. Following the Quranic and Prophetic order, Muslims take a lot of care in not showing their act of charity.

If you read the Ihya then you must remember how Ghazali narrated different stories on how Muslims invented various methods to avoid being seen giving alms, even by those receiving it. Some would put it in the the road of needy man, or in his clothes before wearing them etc.

Quote
Islam couldn't maintain its purity in Muhammad's lifetime, and invented the idea of "abrogation" of scripture to excuese that, let alone the innovations of his companions, who have not been united at least form the time of his contemporary 'Uthman (656).

90% alhamdulillah, 90%.

Quote
We celebrate it every Sunday of Orthodoxy, that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church has not changed since the time of Christ's Ascenion, and will not change till His return.

Except that every Church in the world claims to be the catholic apostolic church. Even if we were to consider all Orthodox Churches to be one Church, then Orthodoxy doesn't account for more than a quarter of total Christians.

By its very nature, Christianity contained withing itself the seed of deviation. Protestantism was only a natural and logical conclusion. It is for this reason that Christian could not even stand against the forces of modernity, neither on the intellectual nor on the temporal domains. The only 'contemporary' anti-modern, Christian movement one can remember (which is Orthodox btw) is the Romanian Iron Guard, but that was far, far from the spirit of medieval Christian, it was beyond tainted by modern doctrines such as nationalism.

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That number has ebbed and flowed, and if it meant anything, why are you Maliki, when only 15% of Muslims are?

The number is correct alhamdulillah. And, like I said, all madhabs are accepted, and I'm Maliki because I was born and I live in a Maliki country. A madhab is not something you chose, unless you want to study one then you can choose whichever you want.

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We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

You couldn't, despite the Umayyads buring as many varients as they could get their hands on, guard the Quran from corruption: your qira'at Warsh in Morrocco isn't the same as that of Hafs, used in Cairo (and most of the Muslim world).

The message was guarded alhamdulillah (by the way, the verse is to referring just for the Quran, but to the Religion as a whole).

The qira'at are like madhabs, all of the common one are accepted. Most of the mus'hafs circulating here in Morocco are printed either in SA or in Lebanon but absolutely no one has any problem with that.

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It's has over a third of mankind for over a century.  According to al-Jazeera, every year 6 million Muslims come for baptism.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php

Please! That was not according to al-Jazeera, it was according to a guy hosted in a show on the channel and he presented no evidence for what he said. May I ask you where are these conversion taking place? Is it in North Africa, is it in Mali, Senegal, Nigeria? Because the percentage of Muslims is either stable or increasing in all of African countries.

That gentleman was either mistaken, may God guard us from error, or he meant something else, like that those are the numbers of people who converted to Christianity but could've been converted to Islam, which is what I understood the first time I saw the video.

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Protestants have never accouted for half of Christians, and it doesn't look like, the way a lot are coming to the Orthodox and the Vatican, they ever will. And most are not decadent, by any sane sense of the word.

Of course there are some sincere individuals in all sects, but Protestantism was born out of the same circumstances and turbulences in Europe that gave birth to the "Enlightenment", a movement that is not only decadent but it presents itself as the protagonist of everything that is normal, traditional and positive in any significant sense of the word.


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LOL. Your wishful thinking is getting the better of you. Seen what is going on in Russia? Ukraine? Did you see Pope JP II's funeral?


Or [St.] Pavle of Serbia?

Holy Patriarch Pavle, pray for us!

The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.
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« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2010, 01:18:01 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2010, 01:20:35 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes

Well, you should be aware of it and you sould object. How about them Traditionalist movements?
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« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2010, 01:23:58 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes

Well, you should be aware of it and you sould object. How about them Traditionalist movements?
I am a Traditionalist. Smiley
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« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2010, 01:28:46 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes

Well, you should be aware of it and you sould object. How about them Traditionalist movements?
I am a Traditionalist. Smiley

I don't know if by "Traditionalist" you want to say that the Roman Catholic Chruch is Traditionalist in its current from, because otherwise I can't see why you would object to my statement above.
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« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2010, 01:33:45 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes

Well, you should be aware of it and you sould object. How about them Traditionalist movements?
I am a Traditionalist. Smiley

I don't know if by "Traditionalist" you want to say that the Roman Catholic Chruch is Traditionalist in its current from, because otherwise I can't see why you would object to my statement above.

Regardless of how some Catholics and some clergy in the world behave, the faith is intact and our Pontiff is a traditional Catholic himself.
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« Reply #108 on: July 14, 2010, 02:57:17 PM »

Shahadah: the Bible says nothing on Muhammad, and Muhammad calls the Bible corrupt.

The shahada is testifying that none and nothing is worthy of worship and submission but God, and that Mohammed's message calls for just that in the correct manner.

He blasphemes God by refusal to worship the Son and submit to the Church He founded, as called for in the Bible.


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Hajj: to a place of no importance at all to the Bible. Contradicts the OT in refusing to go the one place of worship, and the NT in refusing the true Temple (sidenote: the histories of Mecca record that in the Ka'bah was an icon of Abraham and Jacob, and of the Theotokos and Christ.  When the Muslims conquered Mecca, Muhammad covered the icon with his body, and ordered "destroy everything else."  It remained there at least until the Muslims destroyed the Ka'bah the first time in their second fitna (civil war), around the time they built the dome of the rock (c. 690).

You and your revisionist history! There's nothing about making pilgrimage to Mecca that goes against the Religion of the Prophets. The Religion of one for all Prophets and Nations, but Laws and obligation and permissions are different.  Even hinting that this might not be true from any aspect will be destroying the very foundation of Christianity.

Christianity wasn't founded on running around an empty box, and kissing a rock. Even Umar is recorded as saying to the idolatrous holdover "if I didn't see the "Apostle of God" (i.e. Muhammad) kiss you, I'd destroy you as an idol."

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Salah: in a direction meaningless to the Bible, doing a ritual modeled after the Church's 7 hours of prayer but replacing the Biblical texts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg
[/quote]

Jews do not kneel in prayer. Haven't for quite some time. Their main prayer is called amidah i.e. "standing."

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Sawm: fast based on no biblical event, but on the reception of a text intended to surplant the Bible.

Until today, Jews fast the exact same way Muslims do, though in different days.

IIRC it was a taunt of the Meccans that Muhammad didn't know how to wipe his posterior unless the Jews told him how. So let your masters circumcize you and be happy. No Jew fasts for the alleged coming of the Quran (the reason for Ramadan's fast). Nor do they have a fasting season.

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Zakah: the piety of the Pharisee, rejecting the charity of the widow and her mite.

Muslims are encouraged to live only by the necessary, everything else should be alms in all its forms. Following the Quranic and Prophetic order, Muslims take a lot of care in not showing their act of charity.

Yeah, Saudi Arabis is full of "living only by necessity," especially among the royal family, oops, I mean the family of the Servant of the Two Sanctuaries.

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If you read the Ihya then you must remember how Ghazali narrated different stories on how Muslims invented various methods to avoid being seen giving alms, even by those receiving it. Some would put it in the the road of needy man, or in his clothes before wearing them etc.

yes, Sufi literature is full of stories borrowed from Christian hagiography (Sufi "woolen" refers to the wool cloaks which they adopted from the Christian monks in wearing).

I understand the grandios Hasan II Mosque was built with such "charity" (with a little extortion from the late Sultan).

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Islam couldn't maintain its purity in Muhammad's lifetime, and invented the idea of "abrogation" of scripture to excuese that, let alone the innovations of his companions, who have not been united at least form the time of his contemporary 'Uthman (656).

90% alhamdulillah, 90%.

Yes, 90% reject the central authority of the Dar al-Islam, like the apostates did in the Riddah wars.  And 100% subscribe to the writing of the Quran by abrogation.

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We celebrate it every Sunday of Orthodoxy, that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church has not changed since the time of Christ's Ascenion, and will not change till His return.

Except that every Church in the world claims to be the catholic apostolic church. Even if we were to consider all Orthodox Churches to be one Church, then Orthodoxy doesn't account for more than a quarter of total Christians.

And the Muslims aren't even a quarter of mankind and the Malikis aren't even a quarter of all Muslims, yet you are both Maliki and Musilm. Btw, the Sunni/Ijmaa'i percentage is slipping, with the increase of Shi'ites.

I never believed Truth was up for a vote.  God and one makes a majority.

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By its very nature, Christianity contained withing itself the seed of deviation. Protestantism was only a natural and logical conclusion. It is for this reason that Christian could not even stand against the forces of modernity, neither on the intellectual nor on the temporal domains. The only 'contemporary' anti-modern, Christian movement one can remember (which is Orthodox btw) is the Romanian Iron Guard, but that was far, far from the spirit of medieval Christian, it was beyond tainted by modern doctrines such as nationalism.

Mix this mass of conjecture with at least SOME facts, and I'll consider answering.

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That number has ebbed and flowed, and if it meant anything, why are you Maliki, when only 15% of Muslims are?

The number is correct alhamdulillah. And, like I said, all madhabs are accepted, and I'm Maliki because I was born and I live in a Maliki country. A madhab is not something you chose, unless you want to study one then you can choose whichever you want.

Accepted by whom?  As I stated, Malikis aren't accepted in Jordan, and since I've seen similar rejection here, then I guess not in the US either.

Why don't you accept the madhhab of Ibn Malik's teacher, Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, and become Isma'ili or Twelver?

So you are Maliki because of where you are born. If you were born across the border in the Mzab, I guess you would be Khariji. Or in China, your madhhab would be to kow tow to chairman Mao.  How inspiring.

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We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

You couldn't, despite the Umayyads buring as many varients as they could get their hands on, guard the Quran from corruption: your qira'at Warsh in Morrocco isn't the same as that of Hafs, used in Cairo (and most of the Muslim world).

The message was guarded alhamdulillah (by the way, the verse is to referring just for the Quran, but to the Religion as a whole).


Neither of which have been preserved.

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The qira'at are like madhabs, all of the common one are accepted. Most of the mus'hafs circulating here in Morocco are printed either in SA or in Lebanon but absolutely no one has any problem with that.

Few are aware. When I showed a Morroccan my Hafs, and compared it to their Warsh, they were quite confused.

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It's has over a third of mankind for over a century.  According to al-Jazeera, every year 6 million Muslims come for baptism.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php

Please! That was not according to al-Jazeera, it was according to a guy hosted in a show on the channel and he presented no evidence for what he said.


and went into some detail, including his personal experience in the field.  I've seen data saying the same elsewhere, including by Muslims for Muslims in the Muslim world.

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May I ask you where are these conversion taking place? Is it in North Africa, is it in Mali, Senegal, Nigeria? Because the percentage of Muslims is either stable or increasing in all of African countries.

Nigeria now has a Christian president, and Christianity has penetrated the Muslim Hausa big time.  I was a supporter of the conservative Arinze in the last papal conclave. I still like him, and what he has to say. And say he does, all over the world.

Africa had 9 million Christians in 1900. In 2000 it had over 380 milliion, expected on present trends to reach 633 million (mostly traditional, btw) Christians in 2025.

And conversions happen everywhere: every Copt I know in Egypt knows at least one ex-Muslim who had been baptized. Offset, of course, by the persecusions.

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That gentleman was either mistaken, may God guard us from error, or he meant something else, like that those are the numbers of people who converted to Christianity but could've been converted to Islam, which is what I understood the first time I saw the video.

if that is what he meant, still many Muslims come for baptism.  A famous case is the Father of Pakistan, Jinnah.  None of his grandchildren can come to Pakistan: they are Christians (one did revert to his grandfather's (not Jinnah) Zoroastrian faith).  All the Indonesian Orthodox I know of have converted from Islam.  In Albania, a number of the bishops are converts from Islam.  As for Africa, the Holy Synod of Alexandria has bishops all over the continent, and converts include Muslims.

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The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.
Jaruzelski found out otherwise.

The PRI in Mexico found out otherwise.

Castro is finding out otherwise.

I'd wise up.
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« Reply #109 on: July 14, 2010, 02:59:24 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes

Well, you should be aware of it and you sould object. How about them Traditionalist movements?
You mean those that under their tenure the Vatican's flock has increased to almost double since they took the reins with JP II?  What about them?
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« Reply #110 on: July 14, 2010, 03:45:19 PM »

He blasphemes God by refusal to worship the Son and submit to the Church He founded, as called for in the Bible.

You ought to consider that it's Christians who blaspheme God with their doctrines, not Jews and Muslims for rejecting them.

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Christianity wasn't founded on running around an empty box, and kissing a rock. Even Umar is recorded as saying to the idolatrous holdover "if I didn't see the "Apostle of God" (i.e. Muhammad) kiss you, I'd destroy you as an idol."

Well, Jew pray facing a while and insert prayers between its cracks and you venerate pictures. There's always things that can be considered idolatrous if not observed more carefully.

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Jews do not kneel in prayer. Haven't for quite some time. Their main prayer is called amidah i.e. "standing."

And, alhmadulillah, we have revived and sustained the the Tradition of the Prophets.

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IIRC it was a taunt of the Meccans that Muhammad didn't know how to wipe his posterior unless the Jews told him how. So let your masters circumcize you and be happy. No Jew fasts for the alleged coming of the Quran (the reason for Ramadan's fast). Nor do they have a fasting season.

Is that even a Christian thing to say? Although Laws are l*not the same for each Nation, they are very similar. Something for Christians to contemplate on, how far removed they are from the way of the Prophets.

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Yeah, Saudi Arabis is full of "living only by necessity," especially among the royal family, oops, I mean the family of the Servant of the Two Sanctuaries.

No, they are not full of it. May their Creator guide them and guide us, amin.

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yes, Sufi literature is full of stories borrowed from Christian hagiography (Sufi "woolen" refers to the wool cloaks which they adopted from the Christian monks in wearing).

So Imam Ghazali quoted stories about Christians but changed the names to those of the Prophets' companions and the Early Muslims? Quite a big claim you're making there!

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I understand the grandios Hasan II Mosque was built with such "charity" (with a little extortion from the late Sultan).

No it was not, but the grand mosque in our neighborhood was (which is a very beautiful one), it was build entirely from a woman's pocket. Can't even start imagining how it costed. A new big mosque that was build a year or two ago was also funded by charity. Just from the top of my head.

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Yes, 90% reject the central authority of the Dar al-Islam, like the apostates did in the Riddah wars.  And 100% subscribe to the writing of the Quran by abrogation.

What you're talking about there, dear kind brother, I don't even know.

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And the Muslims aren't even a quarter of mankind and the Malikis aren't even a quarter of all Muslims, yet you are both Maliki and Musilm. Btw, the Sunni/Ijmaa'i percentage is slipping, with the increase of Shi'ites.

I never believed Truth was up for a vote.  God and one makes a majority.

No, it's not, but it's such a great sign when a religion is fragmented to thousand pieces and when an other one maintains its integrity.

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Mix this mass of conjecture with at least SOME facts, and I'll consider answering.

In order to speak about a subject, you must have an integral knowledge about it, not factual knowledge. Like above, the state of Christianity and Islam today, on the intellectual and temporal fields is also a strong sign.

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Accepted by whom?  As I stated, Malikis aren't accepted in Jordan, and since I've seen similar rejection here, then I guess not in the US either.

Why don't you accept the madhhab of Ibn Malik's teacher, Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, and become Isma'ili or Twelver?

If what you're saying is true than those actions are by no means done by knowledgeable people. May God protect us from ignorance.

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So you are Maliki because of where you are born. If you were born across the border in the Mzab, I guess you would be Khariji. Or in China, your madhhab would be to kow tow to chairman Mao.  How inspiring.

I was talking about madhabs of the followers of the Sunna and the consensus, they are all valid, so one can't choose a madhab, you just follow whichever you find most convenient, especially for those living outside of Muslims countries. As for those who live in Muslim countries, following a madhab other than the predominant one in you country indirectly means that you thought it is invalid which is something unacceptable.

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Neither of which have been preserved.

You are mistaken, alhamdulillah.

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Few are aware. When I showed a Morroccan my Hafs, and compared it to their Warsh, they were quite confused.

Of course they wouldn't be aware, why should they? They are all valid readings, alhamdulillah.

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and went into some detail, including his personal experience in the field.  I've seen data saying the same elsewhere, including by Muslims for Muslims in the Muslim world.

Care to share this obscure data?

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Nigeria now has a Christian president, and Christianity has penetrated the Muslim Hausa big time.  I was a supporter of the conservative Arinze in the last papal conclave. I still like him, and what he has to say. And say he does, all over the world.

Africa had 9 million Christians in 1900. In 2000 it had over 380 million, expected on present trends to reach 633 million (mostly traditional, btw) Christians in 2025.

Now that you reminded me, I'm sure what that guy did is taking the current number of Christian in the continent and dividing it on the number of years that missionary work really started which is about 100 years a go. In fact, wikipedia says there 450 million Christians in the continent, if you divide it by 100, you get 4.5 million people per year, with the number he used it gave hum little less than 6 million.

Lo! The mystery is solved.

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And conversions happen everywhere: every Copt I know in Egypt knows at least one ex-Muslim who had been baptized. Offset, of course, by the persecusions.

Millions of them!

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Jaruzelski found out otherwise.

The PRI in Mexico found out otherwise.

Castro is finding out otherwise.

I'd wise up.

The attendence rate at those funerals is as significant as the  attendence rate for any other pop icon's funeral. Christianity was much, much, much stronger during the 'midieval' tims when popes had nothing like these funerals.

And are you really using Castro as an example of a Christian? O Christ, where art thou? Come see what happened to thine legacy!
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« Reply #111 on: July 14, 2010, 03:49:43 PM »


Mekki....you be careful where and how you invoke Christ!  Watch out for your very soul is at stake!

How dare you call upon Him, when you don't even believe in Him.

Shameful!



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« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2010, 03:56:49 PM »


Mekki....you be careful where and how you invoke Christ!  Watch out for your very soul is at stake!

How dare you call upon Him, when you don't even believe in Him.

Shameful!


Perhaps we should issue a fatwa...

...oh wait, we don't do such things.  Wink
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« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2010, 04:05:34 PM »


Mekki....you be careful where and how you invoke Christ!  Watch out for your very soul is at stake!

How dare you call upon Him, when you don't even believe in Him.

Shameful!

Oh I believe in Christ, yes indeed I do. And my calling for him is not in prayer but in mourning for what happened to his nation is heart braking.




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« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2010, 04:09:43 PM »

Perhaps we should issue a fatwa...

...oh wait, we don't do such things.  Wink

You should, but you don't because you're living in this world. May the All-Seeing keep us away from blindness.
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« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2010, 04:20:49 PM »


You ought to consider that it's Christians who blaspheme God with their doctrines, not Jews and Muslims for rejecting them.

Muslims blaspheme when they deny Christ's true personality and turn Him into an ordinary prophet/slave of Islam so that they can make Mohammad the final messenger.

Well, Jew pray facing a while and insert prayers between its cracks and you venerate pictures. There's always things that can be considered idolatrous if not observed more carefully.

Christians are not obliged to venerate pictures while worshipping, but your Allah compels you in his Qur'an to face the Cube while worshipping. This is the difference.


And, alhmadulillah, we have revived and sustained the the Tradition of the Prophets.

Fallacy of red herring.  Roll Eyes

Is that even a Christian thing to say? Although Laws are l*not the same for each Nation, they are very similar. Something for Christians to contemplate on, how far removed they are from the way of the Prophets.

Could you please list the differences between the Law of Jews and that of Christians according to your Qur'an?  Roll Eyes

No, it's not, but it's such a great sign when a religion is fragmented to thousand pieces and when an other one maintains its integrity.

Yet the division of humanity into different religions is in line with your Allah's plan. He keeps bragging about the variations, saying that it is a crucial part of his test.  laugh

In order to speak about a subject, you must have an integral knowledge about it, not factual knowledge. Like above, the state of Christianity and Islam today, on the intellectual and temporal fields is also a strong sign.

Islam's state today is an optical illusion. It is a castle of sand destined to be destroyed on the Day of Judgment.

You are mistaken, alhamdulillah.

You are mistaken. You are also a blind believer because you reject the weak points and problems of Islamic history with regard to the preservation of the Qur'an. The book you have today and read as Allah's scripture was formed after Mohammad and without his authorization.


And are you really using Castro as an example of a Christian? O Christ, where art thou? Come see what happened to thine legacy!

It is an ironic example.
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« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2010, 04:40:24 PM »

Muslims blaspheme when they deny Christ's true personality and turn Him into an ordinary prophet/slave of Islam so that they can make Mohammad the final messenger.

I must give this one to you, Muslims do indeed blaspheme when they call for the Almighty to be worshiped properly as the Prophets worshiped him before you and before us, we blaspheme the devil and honour God.

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Christians are not obliged to venerate pictures while worshipping, but your Allah compels you in his Qur'an to face the Cube while worshipping. This is the difference.

What's wrong with having a physical direction in prayer? You pray towards the East, Jew pray toward Jerusalem. Again and again, you show that, if it's true converted, that you have knowledge neither about your current religion nor about God's Religion.

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Fallacy of red herring.  Roll Eyes

There's no red herring, this is the very subject we're discussing.

Could you please list the differences between the Law of Jews and that of Christians according to your Qur'an?  Roll Eyes

The holiest of books does not dwell on the subject, but you seem to have rejected just every law and tradition, what you preserved you have disfigured beyond recognition.

Yet the division of humanity into different religions is in line with your Allah's plan. He keeps bragging about the variations, saying that it is a crucial part of his test.  laugh

God created man with an intellect and gave him the choice between good and evil, between worshipping Him Almighty and submitting to Him thus embracing Islam, the Religion of the Prophets and their faithful followers, or to worship and submit to what's beneath Him.

Islam's state today is an optical illusion. It is a castle of sand destined to be destroyed on the Day of Judgment.

Conclusions are made based on observation and signs, it is up to you to follow those signs or to reject them in pride.

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You are mistaken. You are also a blind believer because you reject the weak points and problems of Islamic history with regard to the preservation of the Qur'an. The book you have today and read as Allah's scripture was formed after Mohammad and without his authorization.

Alhamdulillah, before the Quran was written down it was recorded, in his entirity, in the hearts of God's men.
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« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2010, 04:53:57 PM »

He blasphemes God by refusal to worship the Son and submit to the Church He founded, as called for in the Bible.

You ought to consider that it's Christians who blaspheme God with their doctrines, not Jews and Muslims for rejecting them.

You'll have to be more specific. What non-Orthodox are you speaking of (as of course, the Orthodox have no such dogmas.  The behavior of individual Orthodox are a different matter.

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Christianity wasn't founded on running around an empty box, and kissing a rock. Even Umar is recorded as saying to the idolatrous holdover "if I didn't see the "Apostle of God" (i.e. Muhammad) kiss you, I'd destroy you as an idol."

Well, Jew pray facing a while and insert prayers between its cracks and you venerate pictures. There's always things that can be considered idolatrous if not observed more carefully.

The Jew comes to the site of their temple, and we venerate the images of the members of the True Temple.  What is your reason for kissing a lump of iron rock?

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Jews do not kneel in prayer. Haven't for quite some time. Their main prayer is called amidah i.e. "standing."

And, alhmadulillah, we have revived and sustained the the Tradition of the Prophets.

Revived nothing. If you saw the Orthodox praying the Hours, you'd see where you got it.

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IIRC it was a taunt of the Meccans that Muhammad didn't know how to wipe his posterior unless the Jews told him how. So let your masters circumcize you and be happy. No Jew fasts for the alleged coming of the Quran (the reason for Ramadan's fast). Nor do they have a fasting season.

Is that even a Christian thing to say?


I'm citing Muslims sources.

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Although Laws are l*not the same for each Nation, they are very similar. Something for Christians to contemplate on, how far removed they are from the way of the Prophets.

Your Ramadan fast is modeled after the Orthodox fast of Great Lent.

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yes, Sufi literature is full of stories borrowed from Christian hagiography (Sufi "woolen" refers to the wool cloaks which they adopted from the Christian monks in wearing).

So Imam Ghazali quoted stories about Christians but changed the names to those of the Prophets' companions and the Early Muslims? Quite a big claim you're making there!

Not a problem: if you look at the very early collections (1st century A.H.) and see their transformation over time, the process of Islamitization is clear.

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Yes, 90% reject the central authority of the Dar al-Islam, like the apostates did in the Riddah wars.  And 100% subscribe to the writing of the Quran by abrogation.

What you're talking about there, dear kind brother, I don't even know.

Your lack of an imam/caliph, and your dogma of naskh.

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And the Muslims aren't even a quarter of mankind and the Malikis aren't even a quarter of all Muslims, yet you are both Maliki and Musilm. Btw, the Sunni/Ijmaa'i percentage is slipping, with the increase of Shi'ites.

I never believed Truth was up for a vote.  God and one makes a majority.

No, it's not, but it's such a great sign when a religion is fragmented to thousand pieces and when an other one maintains its integrity.[/quote]

By your own tradition, you religion was born broken into 72 sects, and has hundreds, if not thousands more, over its history. Two communions (the Vatican and the Orthodox) have around 3/4s of Christianity, and have throughout its history.

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Mix this mass of conjecture with at least SOME facts, and I'll consider answering.

In order to speak about a subject, you must have an integral knowledge about it, not factual knowledge. Like above, the state of Christianity and Islam today, on the intellectual and temporal fields is also a strong sign.

Spew less, say more.

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Accepted by whom?  As I stated, Malikis aren't accepted in Jordan, and since I've seen similar rejection here, then I guess not in the US either.

Why don't you accept the madhhab of Ibn Malik's teacher, Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, and become Isma'ili or Twelver?

If what you're saying is true than those actions are by no means done by knowledgeable people. May God protect us from ignorance.

Do you have an ijaazah to issue that fatwah?

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So you are Maliki because of where you are born. If you were born across the border in the Mzab, I guess you would be Khariji. Or in China, your madhhab would be to kow tow to chairman Mao.  How inspiring.

I was talking about madhabs of the followers of the Sunna and the consensus, they are all valid, so one can't choose a madhab, you just follow whichever you find most convenient, especially for those living outside of Muslims countries. As for those who live in Muslim countries, following a madhab other than the predominant one in you country indirectly means that you thought it is invalid which is something unacceptable.

In Egypt we say "in the Land that worships the cow, throw it some clover."

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Neither of which have been preserved.

You are mistaken, alhamdulillah.

Prove it.

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and went into some detail, including his personal experience in the field.  I've seen data saying the same elsewhere, including by Muslims for Muslims in the Muslim world.

Care to share this obscure data?

You haven't seen the video?  As for the stuff I saw in the Muslim world, it was constant: the one that sticks in my mind was the Al-Azhar magazine that had the headline "One Million Indonesian Muslims become Christians [lit. Nazarenes]."  To pull stuff up here, I'd have to have a Arabic font compter (unfortunately, this isn't.  I could look in English if I have time later).

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Nigeria now has a Christian president, and Christianity has penetrated the Muslim Hausa big time.  I was a supporter of the conservative Arinze in the last papal conclave. I still like him, and what he has to say. And say he does, all over the world.

Africa had 9 million Christians in 1900. In 2000 it had over 380 million, expected on present trends to reach 633 million (mostly traditional, btw) Christians in 2025.

Now that you reminded me, I'm sure what that guy did is taking the current number of Christian in the continent and dividing it on the number of years that missionary work really started which is about 100 years a go. In fact, wikipedia says there 450 million Christians in the continent, if you divide it by 100, you get 4.5 million people per year, with the number he used it gave hum little less than 6 million.

Lo! The mystery is solved.

Then sleep soundly.

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And conversions happen everywhere: every Copt I know in Egypt knows at least one ex-Muslim who had been baptized. Offset, of course, by the persecusions.

Millions of them!

The persecusion is in the tens of thousands, for now.

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Jaruzelski found out otherwise.

The PRI in Mexico found out otherwise.

Castro is finding out otherwise.

I'd wise up.

The attendence rate at those funerals is as significant as the  attendence rate for any other pop icon's funeral.

Those aren't funerals. What are you talking about?

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Christianity was much, much, much stronger during the 'midieval' tims when popes had nothing like these funerals.

assUming are we?  Can you put some factual meat on that dry bone of an assertion?

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And are you really using Castro as an example of a Christian?
No.

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O Christ, where art thou? Come see what happened to thine legacy!

http://ockenga.gordonconwell.edu/ockenga/globalchristianity/gd/gd04.pdf
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« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2010, 05:03:35 PM »


I must give this one to you, Muslims do indeed blaspheme when they call for the Almighty to be worshiped properly as the Prophets worshiped him before you and before us, we blaspheme the devil and honour God.

This is what you presume. You follow but a conjecture. We worship God alone and in the way He wants us to. He revealed Himself to us through Jesus Christ, His eternal Word (Son).

None of the prophets denied the fact that God has a creative Word and life-giving Spirit. Even your Mohammad knew this although he never understood it properly.

What's wrong with having a physical direction in prayer? You pray towards the East, Jew pray toward Jerusalem. Again and again, you show that, if it's true converted, that you have knowledge neither about your current religion nor about God's Religion.

Drop these fallacies of red herring. I am not talking about directions, but about the Cube, the Meccan pantheon of paganism. Christians do not worship a building unlike Muslims.

Stop attacking me personally. It is a logical fallacy.

There's no red herring, this is the very subject we're discussing.

Not true.

The holiest of books does not dwell on the subject, but you seem to have rejected just every law and tradition, what you preserved you have disfigured beyond recognition.

Why do you bring up this subject then if your fallacious scripture is silent on it as it is silent on many important subjects? What is your purpose?

More, it is better not to have a law than having a law that sanctions adultery (multiple wives) and many other blasphemous acts.

Finally, Christianity does not reject every law and tradition. This untrue statement of yours exposes your ignorance.

God created man with an intellect and gave him the choice between good and evil, between worshipping Him Almighty and submitting to Him thus embracing Islam, the Religion of the Prophets and their faithful followers, or to worship and submit to what's beneath Him.

This is irrelevant to my point. Your Allah thinks it is a good thing for people to have different religions and sects. It is a necessity for his test. Your Allah does not complain about the variety of religions on earth. He does not present it as a problem unlike you. You should study the Qur'an before coming here to defend it.  Grin


Conclusions are made based on observation and signs, it is up to you to follow those signs or to reject them in pride.

Not every conclusion based on observation and signs is absolutely true though. Islam also teaches that Allah sometimes shows false signs to mislead people.

Alhamdulillah, before the Quran was written down it was recorded, in his entirity, in the hearts of God's men.


Evidence for that? Islamic history says Mohammad did not commit the Qur'an to writing during his lifetime. Your scripture was compiled by others than Mohammad after Mohammad's death. Islamic history says this, not me.  Grin
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« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2010, 02:53:04 AM »

You'll have to be more specific. What non-Orthodox are you speaking of (as of course, the Orthodox have no such dogmas.  The behavior of individual Orthodox are a different matter.

Which dogmas?

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The Jew comes to the site of their temple, and we venerate the images of the members of the True Temple.  What is your reason for kissing a lump of iron rock?

Regardless of whether or not you disagree, it's the house of Abraham.

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Revived nothing. If you saw the Orthodox praying the Hours, you'd see where you got it.

Christians have neglected prayer, a few Jews still perform it but not in a codified manner, all Muslims do the payer in details as it was done by the Prophets, at least they are supposed to. We won't invent a prayer just because Jews' prayer is similar.

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Your Ramadan fast is modeled after the Orthodox fast of Great Lent.

No, friend, abstaining from animal products, wine and oil is not fasting. Again you've neglected fasting, Jews still hold it, but it prescribed to them in different days than us. Alhamdulillah, God has blessed us with longer time of obligatory fasting.

Again, you're overrating Christianity.

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Not a problem: if you look at the very early collections (1st century A.H.) and see their transformation over time, the process of Islamitization is clear.

I'm not I understood what you wanted to say there.

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Your lack of an imam/caliph, and your dogma of naskh.

Our spiritual Imam is the consensus of the Nation's scholars and our Chalif is, well, the Chalif. And what's your problem with naskh? Didn God allow the children of Adam to marry among themselves, and then He forbade it afterwards?

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By your own tradition, you religion was born broken into 72 sects, and has hundreds, if not thousands more, over its history. Two communions (the Vatican and the Orthodox) have around 3/4s of Christianity, and have throughout its history.

Different scholars have given different 72 groups, and most of the times the deviations of these groups from the consensus are in rather trivial theological or juridical matters, which is a lot less radical than the differences between, for example, Orthodox churches.

Still, the overwhelming majority of those groups were a man and a few of his followers and the sect died as soon as the leader died.

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Spew less, say more.

I actually think what I wrote there is highly worthy of contemplation, and you ought to consider it.

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Do you have an ijaazah to issue that fatwah?

Fatwa is simply a juridical ruling, so you're asking if I have an ijaza in Islamic jurisprudence, no, but it doesn't need one to know that all madhabs of the follower of the sunna and the consensus are valid.

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Prove it.

The life of the prophet and the companions is recorded in more than details, unlike Christians, we know exactly what our Religion is.

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You haven't seen the video?  As for the stuff I saw in the Muslim world, it was constant: the one that sticks in my mind was the Al-Azhar magazine that had the headline "One Million Indonesian Muslims become Christians [lit. Nazarenes]."  To pull stuff up here, I'd have to have a Arabic font compter (unfortunately, this isn't.  I could look in English if I have time later).

You can't use the video itself as an evidence for what it's in the video.

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Then sleep soundly.

You are the one making a big fuzz out of it. For us conversion is a normal matter, we don't have to clinch on imaginary statistics. Just a three or four days a go I was buying a book from the library, and there were two people, one asked the lady there for a Spanish-Arabic dictionary but with Latin scrip, she gave him one, then the other guy started speaking and it turned out he's Spanish (you couldn't tell because most people here in Northern Morocco have fair skin and a lot of them are blond, like the Moroccan guy in that situation), he also asked for a Quran, she brought him a Quran with Arabic, Arabic transliteration and Spanish. The guy was so happy, it was just ridiculous!


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So now you are interested in numbers? How many of those are Orthodox? How many of those are not drunk 80% of the time when they're wake up? How many of thm are not prostitutes?

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
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« Reply #120 on: July 15, 2010, 04:13:25 AM »

I thought for a change of paste, I'd answer from the bottom up. Call it my homage to our friends from Australia and NZ. I'm also going to break it down.  I'm also going back to bed soon, so I'll have to return to it.

It was the first map which popped up on a search.  You asked where Christ is, and I've shown you.  If I was interested in numbers, I'd post this:


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How many of those are Orthodox?
'
Or maybe you prefer something like this (we are the dark brown, and the grey in Ethiopia. You're the light brown).


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How many of those are not drunk 80% of the time when they're wake up? How many of thm are not prostitutes?

LOL.  Don't know, but it is odd that you bring that up, as I've already told you, I've lived in the Muslim world.  Just a half hour ago it was announced that Pakistan (which may now be the largest Muslim country again) is the leader in porn searches on the internet.

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None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
You must be a prophet, being able to judge millions you do not know.
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« Reply #121 on: July 15, 2010, 04:18:08 AM »

This is what you presume. You follow but a conjecture. We worship God alone and in the way He wants us to. He revealed Himself to us through Jesus Christ, His eternal Word (Son).

None of the prophets denied the fact that God has a creative Word and life-giving Spirit. Even your Mohammad knew this although he never understood it properly.

Sure thing, bro, sure thing.

Drop these fallacies of red herring. I am not talking about directions, but about the Cube, the Meccan pantheon of paganism. Christians do not worship a building unlike Muslims.

Stop attacking me personally. It is a logical fallacy.

Stick with one theory, do we worship the moon or the ka'aba? You can't have both.

May God keep us away from ignorance.

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Why do you bring up this subject then if your fallacious scripture is silent on it as it is silent on many important subjects? What is your purpose?

More, it is better not to have a law than having a law that sanctions adultery (multiple wives) and many other blasphemous acts.

If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. (exodus 21:10)

So the bible is condoning adultery, yes?

May the Almighty bless us with knowledge.

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Finally, Christianity does not reject every law and tradition. This untrue statement of yours exposes your ignorance.

I really can't think of a Biblical tradition that wasn't either twisted beyond recognition by Christians or discarded all together. This includes, but not limited to: Monotheism, canonical prayer, fasting, war, marriage et cetera.

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This is irrelevant to my point. Your Allah thinks it is a good thing for people to have different religions and sects. It is a necessity for his test. Your Allah does not complain about the variety of religions on earth. He does not present it as a problem unlike you. You should study the Qur'an before coming here to defend it.  Grin

God does not complain about anything, everything happens by his will. People are free to either follow his religion, Islam, or to deviate from it.


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Not every conclusion based on observation and signs is absolutely true though. Islam also teaches that Allah sometimes shows false signs to mislead people.

Those who choose to disbelieve do it out of their own will:

Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path). (2:26)

Anyway, as a Christian, you can't have an objection on any thing you stated there, because you believe the same (unless you disagree with the teachings of the Church and think people act against the will of God)


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Evidence for that? Islamic history says Mohammad did not commit the Qur'an to writing during his lifetime. Your scripture was compiled by others than Mohammad after Mohammad's death. Islamic history says this, not me.  Grin

When the Prophet died, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of people who memorized the Quran from the first to the last word, writing it down has little to no significance to them.


And my Creator and yours knows best.
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« Reply #122 on: July 15, 2010, 05:17:12 AM »

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
What, then, does it mean to a Muslim to follow Christ?
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« Reply #123 on: July 15, 2010, 05:25:46 AM »

Mekki .....

Are Muslims allowed  to lie....  Here in Chicago the Manager who is also the Maintenance Engineer in the building i lived in, he and his wife are Serbian Muslims from Serbia ....
His wife acumulated quite a lot of parking tickets ,Double Parking her car for hours, never looking out the window if a parking spot opened up .....

She cornered me one day ,asked me to lie, to  city hall that i lost my residentual neighborhood parking sticker, so i can get another one from the city  and give it to her, the city runs plate numbers to see if one owes tickets before issuing a residentual parking sticker, so she couldn't get one....

When i moved into the building, she was a very modern western dressed woman ...Then she changed a few yrs after to a more devout look, covered her hair ,had loose fitting cloths on...This is the time she asked me to lie for her ...
I responded to her ,by saying you look like a woman of deep faith ,truly you don't me to lie for you...She didn't know how to respond after that ,she shrugged her shoulders and walked away.... Grin




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« Reply #124 on: July 15, 2010, 05:45:16 AM »

Mekki,

I notice that you haven't yet addressed the substance of this post:
The followers of Mohammed only understand Christianity as it was given them by their own leaders and teachers to understand, not as it actually is. One can find corroborative, historical evidence of the witness of Orthodox Christianity, the writing of the Scriptures, and the teaching of the apostles and their successors from non-partisan studies. So, we'll ask them to do what we ask the Jews to do (produce the body). Let the followers of Mohammed produce actual evidence of their claims that there was corruption in the way they claim, or else let them worship Christ with us, for it was not a mere man who was born without seed from the Ever-Virgin Mary, but the Son of God, equal to the Father in all things, as it was revealed to us by Christ and his holy apostles. Otherwise, there can be no real conversation.

The evidence is Christianity itself, a non-Biblical religion that produced deviation after deviation to the degree that there are Churches by thousands now, all of them based on doctrines that an Israelites would clench for merely hearing them. The nature of this religion allow for the satanic, hedonistic modern world to be Born out of its womb.

Which you feel obligated to destroy in a blood bath.... yada yada

Yawn

Like  with all doubters it's the Resurrection that is the major sticking point .But there are only a few possibilities.

1. The Romans stole the Body
2. The Jews stole the Body
3. The Apostles stole the Body

If either the Jews or the Romans had stolen the body, at some point, just Apostles  were proclaiming the Resurrection, they certainly would have said. "Nope, here he is" and dumped the Body in front of them..... thus ending Christianity' forever.

If the Apostles themselves had stolen the body, they would not have given their very lives, via extreme torture, beheading, burning, crucifixion and skinning alive for a fraud. The second the knife cuts into your skin you would confess. None of them did that. Not one. They all went to their deaths happy in the knowledge of their salvation.

On the other hand, Muhammad heard voices that dictated various prophecies and regulations to him... Okay..umm..Is that all ya got? Anyone can claim that.

Christians have something called "Corroboration"... look it up. I am glad Muhammad prayed every day. So did Joseph Smith.

Even more foundational to the Christian faith than the Trinity is our proclamation that Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead. In Chapter 15 of his First Epistle to the Corinthians, the Apostle Paul proclaimed to his audience that more than 500 people saw Jesus after He had risen. According to this testimony, most of those 500 were still alive at the time St. Paul wrote this epistle and could be questioned regarding their own account of the resurrection. This could hardly be considered a private revelation.

Outside of Muhammad, to whom else does Islam say God revealed the Qu'ran directly? Or was Muhammad the only one, and we are required to accept his personal account as true? If we have no other first-hand eyewitnesses to corroborate that Muhammad's word is true, all we have is second-hand accounts from those persons with whom Muhammad shared his revelations. How are we supposed to recognize this as reliable evidence? One man can concoct a bald faced fantasy and get gullible people to believe him a prophet--just look at our own nation's experience with Joseph Smith and the Mormons--but without the corroboration of eyewitnesses who all saw the same fantastical vision, the one man's words may be the ravings of a psychotic.

Now, which do you think we Christians would find more believable? An event witnessed by over 500 persons, or an event "revealed" to one and only one person?
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« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2010, 08:47:07 AM »


Stick with one theory, do we worship the moon or the ka'aba? You can't have both.

My theories are different. You worship the moon god, but also his house.

If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. (exodus 21:10)

He cannot marry another. God's primary and original plan for mankind's marital union was monogamy. Ditto.

So the bible is condoning adultery, yes?

The Bible sanctioned polygamy for Israel and for a limited time, but it also pointed at the difficulties caused by it. The Book of Genesis says God wants man to marry one single woman. Besides, the Qur'an never praises monogamy or associates it with the first couple directly created by God.

I really can't think of a Biblical tradition that wasn't either twisted beyond recognition by Christians or discarded all together. This includes, but not limited to: Monotheism, canonical prayer, fasting, war, marriage et cetera.

That is because of your twisted reasoning. I can say for sure that there is no Christian tenet that you have not twisted beyond recognition. You have also discarded our explanations and answers.  Roll Eyes

God does not complain about anything, everything happens by his will. People are free to either follow his religion, Islam, or to deviate from it.

Why do you keep saying then that religious differences and fractions illustrate the corruption of a faith?

Those who choose to disbelieve do it out of their own will:

Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path). (2:26)

Anyway, as a Christian, you can't have an objection on any thing you stated there, because you believe the same (unless you disagree with the teachings of the Church and think people act against the will of God)

As a Christian I never claim or believe that God is a deceiver. This claim and doctrine is peculiar to the Qur'an.

When the Prophet died, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of people who memorized the Quran from the first to the last word, writing it down has little to no significance to them.

And my Creator and yours knows best.


Do not give evasive answers please. I need evidence for your claim. You cannot simply prove one assertion with the help of another. You must convince me that those thousands of people (their names?) memorized the Qur'an from first to the last word. When I read the Qur'an, I find textual variations there. For instance:

And the magicians were cast down making obeisance; they said: We believe in the Lord of Haroun and Musa. (Surah 20:70)

And the magicians were thrown down prostrate; They said: We believe in the Lord of the worlds: The Lord of Musa and Haroun. (Surah 26:46-48)

And the enchanters were thrown down, prostrating (themselves). They said: We believe in the Lord of the worlds, The Lord of Musa and Haroun. (Surah 7:120-122)

What did the magicians precisely say? It seems that the people supposedly memorizing the Qur'an properly could not get a simple sequence correct.  Roll Eyes

What about Uthman and his tampering with the Qur'an text? He was not aware of those people that allegedly transmitted the Qur'an to further generations?
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« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2010, 09:02:54 AM »

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
What, then, does it mean to a Muslim to follow Christ?

It means that he worships God in the same manner that all prophets called for it, including Christ son of Mary. And we uphold the Law that God prescribed to us like he prescribed Laws to previous nations.
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« Reply #127 on: July 15, 2010, 09:16:07 AM »

Mekki,
Which you feel obligated to destroy in a blood bath.... yada yada

If Muslims ever wanted to destroy Christianity, Orthodoxy wouldn't have existed today.

Quote
Like  with all doubters it's the Resurrection that is the major sticking point .But there are only a few possibilities.

1. The Romans stole the Body
2. The Jews stole the Body
3. The Apostles stole the Body

If either the Jews or the Romans had stolen the body, at some point, just Apostles  were proclaiming the Resurrection, they certainly would have said. "Nope, here he is" and dumped the Body in front of them..... thus ending Christianity' forever.

If the Apostles themselves had stolen the body, they would not have given their very lives, via extreme torture, beheading, burning, crucifixion and skinning alive for a fraud. The second the knife cuts into your skin you would confess. None of them did that. Not one. They all went to their deaths happy in the knowledge of their salvation.

You're talking as though these are recorded facts. The NT was written many years after the death of Jesus by unknown individuals.

Quote
Christians have something called "Corroboration"... look it up. I am glad Muhammad prayed every day. So did Joseph Smith.

There's a quite big difference between saying 'Lord's prayer' by bed before going to sleep, and praying five times in the mosque, one of which at dawn and the other during the night in a time where there were no street lights, that and praying for hour upon hours in a non canonical prayer. The best of Creation used to prayed until his feet are swollen.

Quote
Even more foundational to the Christian faith than the Trinity is our proclamation that Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead. In Chapter 15 of his First Epistle to the Corinthians, the Apostle Paul proclaimed to his audience that more than 500 people saw Jesus after He had risen. According to this testimony, most of those 500 were still alive at the time St. Paul wrote this epistle and could be questioned regarding their own account of the resurrection. This could hardly be considered a private revelation.

Outside of Muhammad, to whom else does Islam say God revealed the Qu'ran directly? Or was Muhammad the only one, and we are required to accept his personal account as true? If we have no other first-hand eyewitnesses to corroborate that Muhammad's word is true, all we have is second-hand accounts from those persons with whom Muhammad shared his revelations. How are we supposed to recognize this as reliable evidence? One man can concoct a bald faced fantasy and get gullible people to believe him a prophet--just look at our own nation's experience with Joseph Smith and the Mormons--but without the corroboration of eyewitnesses who all saw the same fantastical vision, the one man's words may be the ravings of a psychotic.

Now, which do you think we Christians would find more believable? An event witnessed by over 500 persons, or an event "revealed" to one and only one person?

Like I said, the last thing to be said about the NT is that it's an objectively accurate narration of events. Not to mention the fact that no one witnessed the revelation on Moses or saw him being resurrected, yet whomever made the choice to disbelieve in him has chosen his doom.
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« Reply #128 on: July 15, 2010, 09:45:54 AM »

My theories are different. You worship the moon god, but also his house.

What else to expect, you're trying to clinch to anything that can save you from your doubts, you're like a man thrown to the see, desperately tying to stay alive, though life here is an allegory of you death.

If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. (exodus 21:10)

He cannot marry another.
[/quote]

You're claiming to have higher authority than God there.

The Bible sanctioned polygamy for Israel and for a limited time, but it also pointed at the difficulties caused by it.

So God allowed the Israelites to practice adultery according to you?

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The Book of Genesis says God wants man to marry one single woman. Besides, the Qur'an never praises monogamy or associates it with the first couple directly created by God.

The Quran narrates the same story.

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That is because of your twisted reasoning. I can say for sure that there is no Christian tenet that you have not twisted beyond recognition. You have also discarded our explanations and answers.  Roll Eyes

We are proud that we rejected all Christian tenets for they are in the opposite direction from that leading to the Almighty.

Quote
Why do you keep saying then that religious differences and fractions illustrate the corruption of a faith?

Because humanity needs a universal religion, this universal religion can not be Christianity because of its nature which allowed for the fragmentation among other things.


Quote
As a Christian I never claim or believe that God is a deceiver. This claim and doctrine is peculiar to the Qur'an.

So you think the people who were deceived and walked away from the Truth did so against the will of God? Because that what it means to say that God does not deceive, as saying that God does not torture people means that all kinds of torturing on Earth happens against the will of God, which goes against the principle of God's omnipotence.

Quote
Do not give evasive answers please. I need evidence for your claim. You cannot simply prove one assertion with the help of another. You must convince me that those thousands of people (their names?) memorized the Qur'an from first to the last word.

These are not evasive question, dear kind sir. The Quran was revealed during the period of 23 years, which means people had up to 23 years to memorize the Quran as it was revealed (depending on when they converted). It would absolutely absurd to not be able to conceive that at least tens if not hundreds of people memorized the Quran during that period considerings the fact that kids today and throughout Islamic history memorized the entire Quran in two or three years.

Anyway, check this link, you'll find what you're asking for there:

http://www.lastprophet.info/en/the-revelation-and-recording-of-the-quran/efforts-of-the-companions-to-memorize-and-write-down-the-quran.html

Quote
When I read the Qur'an, I find textual variations there. For instance:

And the magicians were cast down making obeisance; they said: We believe in the Lord of Haroun and Musa. (Surah 20:70)

And the magicians were thrown down prostrate; They said: We believe in the Lord of the worlds: The Lord of Musa and Haroun. (Surah 26:46-48)

And the enchanters were thrown down, prostrating (themselves). They said: We believe in the Lord of the worlds, The Lord of Musa and Haroun. (Surah 7:120-122)

What did the magicians precisely say? It seems that the people supposedly memorizing the Qur'an properly could not get a simple sequence correct.  Roll Eyes

Egyptians did not speak Arabic, these are accounts of what has been said before the Pharaoh in meaning, not in words, perhaps they have made a half hour speech about how they believed in the God of Moses, but the essence is what was said there.

Quote
What about Uthman and his tampering with the Qur'an text? He was not aware of those people that allegedly transmitted the Qur'an to further generations?

99 % of people who received the Quran didn't do so through the written Mus'haf which came to existence due to Uthman's efforts, may God reward him for it, they received it though people who memorized it before them and thought it to them.

But it's quite strange that this objection comes from someone whose religion is based on collection of book written in unknown dates by unknown people. Even if you were to tell me that me that the dates and the writers are known, consider that only a complete fool would find the authenticity of the Quran more questionable than the authenticity of the NT, only a drooling a fool.



May the Almighty guide you, brother, and cast pride away from you.
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« Reply #129 on: July 15, 2010, 09:47:40 AM »

Mekki .....

Are Muslims allowed  to lie....  Here in Chicago the Manager who is also the Maintenance Engineer in the building i lived in, he and his wife are Serbian Muslims from Serbia ....
His wife acumulated quite a lot of parking tickets ,Double Parking her car for hours, never looking out the window if a parking spot opened up .....

She cornered me one day ,asked me to lie, to  city hall that i lost my residentual neighborhood parking sticker, so i can get another one from the city  and give it to her, the city runs plate numbers to see if one owes tickets before issuing a residentual parking sticker, so she couldn't get one....

When i moved into the building, she was a very modern western dressed woman ...Then she changed a few yrs after to a more devout look, covered her hair ,had loose fitting cloths on...This is the time she asked me to lie for her ...
I responded to her ,by saying you look like a woman of deep faith ,truly you don't me to lie for you...She didn't know how to respond after that ,she shrugged her shoulders and walked away.... Grin

No they are not.

May our Creator Almighty forgive us all for our mistakes, and lead us to the right path and keep us on it.
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« Reply #130 on: July 15, 2010, 11:01:11 AM »


What else to expect, you're trying to clinch to anything that can save you from your doubts, you're like a man thrown to the see, desperately tying to stay alive, though life here is an allegory of you death.

Another personal attack! Good luck with your logical fallacies.  Wink

If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. (exodus 21:10)

You're claiming to have higher authority than God there.

I am simply repeating what Lord Jesus taught me in His Gospel. I do not make personal judgments that contradict God's decrees. My name is not Mohammad, nor is my father's name is Abdallah.  laugh

So God allowed the Israelites to practice adultery according to you?

NO. Since God's decree for monogamy was suspended in Israel for an appointed time, I cannot say that the people under the Law committed adultery. Besides, God never said in the Bible that men were allowed to practice polygamy. He simply overlooked the shortcomings and imperfection of the Israelites until Christ's advent.

The Quran narrates the same story.

NO. The Qur'an NEVER presents Adam and Eve's relation as the perfect pattern of marriage endorsed by God. This is why the Genesis verse that Christ refers to in His Gospel is missing from your scripture. More, your Allah even says he put enmity between Adam and his wife when he banished them from heaven.

We are proud that we rejected all Christian tenets for they are in the opposite direction from that leading to the Almighty.

I am proud that I rejected all the Islamic innovations and inventions going against Christ and the Bible. Praised be the name of Elohim YHWH who saved me from the pit of Islam.

Because humanity needs a universal religion, this universal religion can not be Christianity because of its nature which allowed for the fragmentation among other things.

Your Allah disagrees with you.

You are also committing a logical fallacy here again. The question whether a religion is universal or not is dependent on its message, not on the number of its fractions. According to your faulty reasoning, people need a new universal religion now because Islam has many fractions.

So you think the people who were deceived and walked away from the Truth did so against the will of God? Because that what it means to say that God does not deceive, as saying that God does not torture people means that all kinds of torturing on Earth happens against the will of God, which goes against the principle of God's omnipotence.


Red herring! Torturing is not the same as deceiving. These two notions are not even related. If you think otherwise, you have serious issues. I say that GOD does not deceive. Satan is the deceiver. Your Qur'an teaches otherwise. It says Allah's guile is strong whereas Satan's guile is weak.

These are not evasive question, dear kind sir. The Quran was revealed during the period of 23 years, which means people had up to 23 years to memorize the Quran as it was revealed (depending on when they converted). It would absolutely absurd to not be able to conceive that at least tens if not hundreds of people memorized the Quran during that period considerings the fact that kids today and throughout Islamic history memorized the entire Quran in two or three years.

Another logical fallacy. You are resorting to circular reasoning now.

It is equally absurd to intorduce a supposed absurdity as evidence for an allegation. Today's people have the ENTIRE Qur'an. They have the full text so as to check if their memorization is accurate. We cannot say the same about the unidentified people who lived in Mohammad's time. They had no text to follow and see if their recitation was correct. They also had new material added to their previous recitation. It would be natural for them to make mistakes and confuse similar narratives that varied only in details. I have already given you an example for such inevitable mistakes and variations.


Egyptians did not speak Arabic, these are accounts of what has been said before the Pharaoh in meaning, not in words, perhaps they have made a half hour speech about how they believed in the God of Moses, but the essence is what was said there.

I want to know in Arabic what those magicians precisely said. Was it so difficult for your Allah to translate their utterance into Arabic? Actually, it is not a translation issue since the difference is only in the order of the two people. Do you mean Egyptians could not say Moses' name first because of their language? This is ridiculous! How could they say Moses' name first in the two other verses then?

Further, I am not interested in the CONTENT of those verses, but their FORM. Either your Allah made a mistake due to his short memory while revealing those verses or your great men of recitation bungled. Choose an option.


99 % of people who received the Quran didn't do so through the written Mus'haf which came to existence due to Uthman's efforts, may God reward him for it, they received it though people who memorized it before them and thought it to them.


Your unsubstantiated claims are making an Islamic dance here. You are going for tawaf around some absurd allegations and reaching no place.

But it's quite strange that this objection comes from someone whose religion is based on collection of book written in unknown dates by unknown people. Even if you were to tell me that me that the dates and the writers are known, consider that only a complete fool would find the authenticity of the Quran more questionable than the authenticity of the NT, only a drooling a fool.

May the Almighty guide you, brother, and cast pride away from you.

We know the writers of the New Testament and the dates of their composition. Attacking Christianity will not save your Islam from critique. Only a fool would think otherwise.

Show me the Qur'an that was compiled by Abu Bakr, then I shall consider it a genuine book written by Mohammad's mentor.
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« Reply #131 on: July 15, 2010, 02:05:01 PM »

Mekki...


I read in the Papers awhile back, that the Saudis bulldozed Your Prophet Mohamed's house least it becomes a idol, of worship and paved a parking lot for a mall over it...

The shia's were outraged by the Saudis action, they were ready to make pilgramages to it.....

Why is the cube more important or as you believe Abrahams house ,than the actual house of your Prophet,that the Saudis destroyed .....
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« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2010, 02:31:53 PM »

Mekki,

Which you feel obligated to destroy in a blood bath.... yada yada

If Muslims ever wanted to destroy Christianity, Orthodoxy wouldn't have existed today.

Like  with all doubters it's the Resurrection that is the major sticking point .But there are only a few possibilities.

1. The Romans stole the Body
2. The Jews stole the Body
3. The Apostles stole the Body

If either the Jews or the Romans had stolen the body, at some point, just Apostles  were proclaiming the Resurrection, they certainly would have said. "Nope, here he is" and dumped the Body in front of them..... thus ending Christianity' forever.

If the Apostles themselves had stolen the body, they would not have given their very lives, via extreme torture, beheading, burning, crucifixion and skinning alive for a fraud. The second the knife cuts into your skin you would confess. None of them did that. Not one. They all went to their deaths happy in the knowledge of their salvation.

You're talking as though these are recorded facts. The NT was written many years after the death of Jesus by unknown individuals.
Wrong! The earliest known NT writings were written as soon after the death and resurrection of Christ as about 15 years and by a man who was very well known throughout the early Church, a man who was introduced to Christ on one of his many voyages to destroy Christ's followers. As this man, the Apostle Paul, intimated in his first letter to the Corinthians, he was preaching the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ while many of the eyewitnesses to these events were still alive. Anyone who didn't believe him could simply ask others of these eyewitnesses for their account. Note also that St. Paul spoke of traditional beliefs regarding Christ's death and resurrection that predated even his epistles.

For comparison purposes, the earliest known biography of Alexander the Great was written some 400 years or so after his death. Yet we see this as reliable. Why, then, should we not trust so many more biographies of Christ that were written between 15 and 40 years after the man's bodily departure from this earth? Compared to 400 years, 40 years is certainly a flash in the pan, is it not?

Christians have something called "Corroboration"... look it up. I am glad Muhammad prayed every day. So did Joseph Smith.

There's a quite big difference between saying 'Lord's prayer' by bed before going to sleep, and praying five times in the mosque, one of which at dawn and the other during the night in a time where there were no street lights, that and praying for hour upon hours in a non canonical prayer. The best of Creation used to prayed until his feet are swollen.
You're missing Marc's point here.

Even more foundational to the Christian faith than the Trinity is our proclamation that Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead. In Chapter 15 of his First Epistle to the Corinthians, the Apostle Paul proclaimed to his audience that more than 500 people saw Jesus after He had risen. According to this testimony, most of those 500 were still alive at the time St. Paul wrote this epistle and could be questioned regarding their own account of the resurrection. This could hardly be considered a private revelation.

Outside of Muhammad, to whom else does Islam say God revealed the Qu'ran directly? Or was Muhammad the only one, and we are required to accept his personal account as true? If we have no other first-hand eyewitnesses to corroborate that Muhammad's word is true, all we have is second-hand accounts from those persons with whom Muhammad shared his revelations. How are we supposed to recognize this as reliable evidence? One man can concoct a bald faced fantasy and get gullible people to believe him a prophet--just look at our own nation's experience with Joseph Smith and the Mormons--but without the corroboration of eyewitnesses who all saw the same fantastical vision, the one man's words may be the ravings of a psychotic.

Now, which do you think we Christians would find more believable? An event witnessed by over 500 persons, or an event "revealed" to one and only one person?

Like I said, the last thing to be said about the NT is that it's an objectively accurate narration of events.
You're not addressing the substance of my criticism. This isn't dodge ball, so stop dodging the question. How do you defend the Qu'ran against the charge that there's no one to corroborate the visions Muhammad allegedly received? How do you know that the Qu'ran is an objectively accurate narration of events when there's never been anyone outside of Muhammad who could verify that they actually occurred as Muhammad narrated them? At least with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we have a historical record, written well within the lifetimes of these eyewitnesses, that He revealed Himself alive to several hundred people after He had died and was buried.

Not to mention the fact that no one witnessed the revelation on Moses or saw him being resurrected, yet whomever made the choice to disbelieve in him has chosen his doom.
Huh Could you at least share with us examples of events with which we're familiar? I've never seen this "teaching" before.
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« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2010, 03:44:26 PM »

no no. You are the one that claims something, and I do no accept it. Therefor, you shall provide me with evidence you claim to possess that will force me to accept your statement. Do not claim to have evidence and then upon request tell me to go to another forum for the task of discrediting evidence you clearly do not possess. You made the claim, now back it up yourself. Otherwise, do not make such ignorant claims.

Let me give you a basic rundown of why your claim is incorrect.

Copts are generally considered to be the descendants of ancient Egyptians, or the pre-Arab invasion Egyptians. Individuals who converted to Islam and succombed to Arabification were also for the most part Coptic originally, but genetically became more diverse since intermarriage with Arab Muslims became common, as opposed to the Copts who primarily continued to marry amongst themselves. Y-Chromosome studies show that Egyptian genes show strong similarities with fellow North African peoples, and also with Middle Eastern peoples. However, the Copts not only exist as a seperate ethnic group today because of religion, but when studying the ethnic groups of Egypt, the Copts/Christians are often presented as a seperate genetic group on their own. This is of course for the known reason that their genetic make up is at the very least slightly different from the Muslim Egyptians. Yes you see the term "Homogeneous Egypt" but it is followed by "90% of Egypt is Arab". The ten percent ommitted from this homogeneous status is indeed the Copts.

It's common knowledge that Egypt was Islamized mainly due to conversion
No, it's a common assertion.  How common in Egypt is an interesting question: most Arab Muslims pride themselves on Arab ancestry, which basically leaves conversion out of the question. I've actually heard it asserted more by Copts, but even they admit a lot of the Muslims are Arab imports.

Quote
rather than immigration, so the burden of proof in on you. But the fact is, Genetic studies show that no genetic shift occurred in Egypt.

You have yet to produce such "studies."  The problem is like trying to using testing to find out which indentical twin is the father of a child: most of the genes coming into Egypt after Islam came, were coming before.  There is, however, some difference between Y-chromosome studies and metrochondria, which would suggest differences in paternal and maternal lines (which often happens in subjected populations, for obvious reasons).

Quote
Not to mention who absurd it is to claim that Egypt, a country which has more population than Arabia put together, was islamized though Arab migration, for this to be true, Arabia must have been evacuated and every Arab went to Egypt.

Your not much on population studies, are you?  Brazil now has far more Lebanese than Lebanon does (6-7 million versus 4 million).  When the US became independent, it had under 4 million: 3,929,326, including 697,681 slaves (Amerindians, the US equivalent of the Copts, were not counted, but seem to have been just below 100,000). So 3, 231,645 (versus 10 million or slightly less in Great Britiain: it had around 5 million when they began to set up the English colonies). That from less than a milliion immigrants: the British sent 425,500, ended up with 2,560,000.  The Dutch, whose colony of 6,000 had been conquered in 1674, stayed and ended up with 100,000 in 1790 (including Martin Van Buren, the only US president not to have English as his native language: he spoke with a life long Dutch accent).  Immigration was a trickle until 1850, when the US had over 23 million, i.e. in just over two generations, it had increased fourfould. 1850-1930 the bulk of immigrants came (35 million), and the US ended up with 122,775,000.  That number depended on less than the 35 million immigrants, as a little publicized fact is that a third of all immigrants did go back to their home countries. So with about 12 million immigrants increased 3000% from 4 million in 1790 to 122 million in 1930. Other countries like Canada/Quebec etc. show similar demographic history. I use the New World examples as they are the best documented cases as to the demographic impact of imported populations.

To turn Egypt, Lane writes 1825-1835 that the population of Egypt was just over 2 million (depressed from demographic disruption caused by the establishment of Muhammad Ali's regime), and included 150,000 Copts at most.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iTUPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA273&dq=Copts+Lane&hl=en&ei=CiA_TMOrMcjanAfittTUBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Copts%20Lane&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=xTUPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA26&dq=%22In+a+country+where+neither+births+nor+deaths+are+registered%22&hl=en&ei=jSI_TJ7XOp2QnweK0fWXBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22In%20a%20country%20where%20neither%20births%20nor%20deaths%20are%20registered%22&f=false

I've seen estimates as high as 4-5 million for the population as a whole, and as high as a quarter million for the Copts at the time. Let's use the high 5 million for the total population, and even go lower than Lane for the Copts to 100,000 (the absolute mimimum for the time).  As you keep going on about, the population has increased in the just under two centuries at least 1,500%, not even considering the considerable emmigration from Egypt. Using the government's figures, which even it admits are low, the Copts have increased 5,000-7,500% over the same time, and have gone from at least 2% to the present government claim of 6-7% (I"ve seen Egyptian government publications which admit as high as 20%). This, as the law court records show, Copts do convert to Islam. Btw, at independence the population was 13 million, with 700,000 Copts according to the census. At the time of the British invasion (our last) in 1882 the census said the country had 6,806,400, with 6,051,625 (88.91%) Muslims, and 405, 903 Copts (5.96%). The rest were Greeks, Armenians, Jews, and foreignors.  Recent Turks were 10-20,000  The Arab Bedouin in the Deserts, interestingly, began to be counted in the country's census: they were 250,000. Despite nearly a century and a half of being kept at arms length, marginalized while also forcibly settled, they number just under a million now (not counting their settled descendants).  The ones who came in brining Islam, who had the whole of the Nile Valley for their use, could, and did, even better.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PR24&dq=Egypt%20census%20700%2C000%20christian&ei=FT4_TMT8CMLbnAfn083mBA&ct=result&id=mGjOAAAAMAAJ&output=text

Btw, the population of the Arabian Peninsula is 77,983,936, so you are pretty much wrong in your conclusions there too.  True, much of that is foreign (at least 20%), but then again, the argument here is that most of the Egyptian population comes from immigration.
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« Reply #134 on: July 15, 2010, 04:24:05 PM »

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
What, then, does it mean to a Muslim to follow Christ?

It means that he worships God in the same manner that all prophets called for it, including Christ son of Mary. And we uphold the Law that God prescribed to us like he prescribed Laws to previous nations.

Really?

Moses began scripture (Genesis 2):
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18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.


And with this wrote in Deutoronomy (you seem to be fond of Deutoronomy)24:
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1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, 2 and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, 3 and the latter husband dislikes her and writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies, who took her to be his wife, 4 then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring guilt upon the land which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance.

and his successor in prophecy, Jeremiah (3) warns:
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1 "If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, will he return to her? Would not that land be greatly polluted? You have played the harlot with many lovers; and would you return to me? says the LORD. 2 Lift up your eyes to the bare heights, and see! Where have you not been lain with? By the waysides you have sat awaiting lovers like an Arab in the wilderness. You have polluted the land with your vile harlotry

and the prophet Malachi, towards the end of the OT revelation chastises (2:)
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13 And this again you do. You cover the LORD's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor at your hand. 14 You ask, "Why does he not?" Because the LORD was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Has not the one God made and sustained for us the spirit of life? And what does he desire? Godly offspring. So take heed to yourselves, and let none be faithless to the wife of his youth. 16 "For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel, and covering one's garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So take heed to yourselves and do not be faithless." 17 You have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet you say, "How have we wearied him?" By saying, "Every one who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delights in them." Or by asking, "Where is the God of justice?"

And the Author and Finisher of our Faith stated forever on the Sermon on the Mount (as His disciple Matthew records, 5):
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31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
and as He refuted the Pharisees and instructed His Discples, including Matthew(19:)
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3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" 4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" 8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."

But your prophet says (S. 2:229-230):
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Divorce is twice; then honourable retention or setting free kindly. It is not lawful for you to take of what you have given them unless the couple fear they may not maintain God's bounds; if you fear they may not maintain God's bounds, it is no fault in them for her to redeem herself. Those are God's bounds; do not transgress them. Whosoever transgresses the bounds of God -- those are the evildoers. If he divorces her finally, she shall not be lawful to him after that, until she marries another husband. If he divorces her, then it is no fault in them to return to each other, if they suppose that they will maintain God's bounds. Those are God's bounds; He makes them clear unto a people that have knowledge.

and his followers legislated this abomination, including your master, Ibn Malik:
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Yahya related to me from Malik from al-Miswar ibn Rifaa al-Quradhi from az-Zubayr ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr that Rifaa ibn Simwal divorced his wife, Tamima bint Wahb, in the time of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, three times. Then she married Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr and he turned from her and could not consummate the marriage and so he parted from her. Rifaa wanted to marry her again and it was mentioned to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and he forbade him to marry her. He said, "She is not halal for you until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.17)

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Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad that A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said when asked whether it was permissible for a man to marry again a wife he had divorced irrevocably if she had married another man who divorced her before consummating the marriage, "Not until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.18)
and your "most authentic" authority, Bukhari, has this lovely vignette on the matter:
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Narrated 'Ikrima:
Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715)

Note, the beating doesn't bother your prophet in the slightest (for one thing, he allows that).  Nor does the fact that the marriage is unhappy and she wants reconciliation with her first (and according to the Lord, true) husband mean anything. No. She must first have intercorse with a man she hates, and your prophet uses as an excuse that the husband could have sex years ago (since obviously, the sons were not recently conceived).

Nope. Not "upholding the Law that God prescribed to [you] like he prescribed Laws to previous nations." Rather creating an abomination that turns over God's established order for Creation, polluting the land with such harlotry. Such an abomination has passed into proverb in Egypt:
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A thousand lovers rather than one Mostahel.

Many lovers or gallants cause less shame to a woman than one Mostahel. According to the Moslim law a person who has once divorced his wife cannot re-marry her, until she has been married to some other man who becomes her legitimate husband, cohabits with her for one night, and divorces her the next morning; after which the first husband may again possess her as his wife. Such cases are of frequent occurrence—as men in the haste of anger often divorce their wives by the simple expression which cannot be retracted. In order to regain his wife a man hires (at no inconsiderable rate) some peasant, whom he chooses from the ugliest that can be found in the streets; but who must engage effectually to consummate the nuptials. A temporary husband of this kind is called Mostahel, and is generally most disgusting to the wife.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4dUOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA25&dq=%22Mostahel%22&hl=en&ei=v20_TMe8A9PhnQfJnriHBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Mostahel%22&f=false
Does it disgust you?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 04:37:16 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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