OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 23, 2014, 03:23:41 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Quran texts appear on baby's body in Dagestan  (Read 13265 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #135 on: July 15, 2010, 11:43:31 PM »

Then sleep soundly.

You are the one making a big fuzz out of it. For us conversion is a normal matter, we don't have to clinch on imaginary statistics. Just a three or four days a go I was buying a book from the library, and there were two people, one asked the lady there for a Spanish-Arabic dictionary but with Latin scrip, she gave him one, then the other guy started speaking and it turned out he's Spanish (you couldn't tell because most people here in Northern Morocco have fair skin and a lot of them are blond, like the Moroccan guy in that situation), he also asked for a Quran, she brought him a Quran with Arabic, Arabic transliteration and Spanish. The guy was so happy, it was just ridiculous!

I'm sure it was.

Btw, I think you meant "bookstore" since you were buying (and the polysemny of "maktabah," and I'm guessing you speak French, hence "librairie." In English library is dar al-kutub/bibliotheque).

I understand it is quite chic now in Spain to claim Moorish blood, just as a few decades everyone denied any ancestors except Visigoths and Romans.  Some I understand embrace Islam.  Much like the fad among blacks in the states to convert to Islam as an "African" thing. Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

As I've said, I've lived in the Muslim world, although not for a number of years.  The media I see, however, show me that things haven't changed.  The number game is standard fare.  With the figures I'ves seen put up, North America should have been thorougly Islamicized long ago.

So you said you are convinced the da'wah is doing fine in Africa.  I have no vested interest in convincing you otherwise.  I know what I know.  The Orthodox Church had not spread as fast nor as far as I'd like, but I want the whole continent baptized by the heir of the preaching of St. Mark (the Christian equivalent of 'Amr b. 'As, except St. Mark came from Africa and came without a sword). So it's all relative to me.

As for normal matter, I usually see quite a hullabaloo at a conversion to Islam, at least when the convert is white.  No problem: we celebrate a baptism, any baptism.  The baptism of former Muslims I've been to were the same as baptism of my children or a convert from other forms of Christianity. Of course we celebrate.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #136 on: July 16, 2010, 12:27:40 AM »

Quote
You haven't seen the video?  As for the stuff I saw in the Muslim world, it was constant: the one that sticks in my mind was the Al-Azhar magazine that had the headline "One Million Indonesian Muslims become Christians [lit. Nazarenes]."  To pull stuff up here, I'd have to have a Arabic font compter (unfortunately, this isn't.  I could look in English if I have time later).

You can't use the video itself as an evidence for what it's in the video.

You can check out any of the many, many, many things he claims in it.

I curious, since you are Morroccan, is their any memory of Gen. Muhammad Ufqir and his family? You know that they all (except the general, being killed and all) have been baptized.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 12:28:16 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,266



« Reply #137 on: July 16, 2010, 12:28:22 AM »

Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

Are you counting the some blacks that make up the Nation of Islam? Some in the NOI claim some 50,000 members (possibly more or less) and I don't think one can really count them as Muslims. I'm sure Mekki wouldn't since I've never heard of any real Muslim who has. I would say that the majority of black Muslims in America are part of the NOI though I could be wrong.
Logged
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #138 on: July 16, 2010, 02:37:31 AM »

Another personal attack! Good luck with your logical fallacies.  Wink

I apologize if that came off as a personal attack.

Quote
NO. Since God's decree for monogamy was suspended in Israel for an appointed time, I cannot say that the people under the Law committed adultery. Besides, God never said in the Bible that men were allowed to practice polygamy. He simply overlooked the shortcomings and imperfection of the Israelites until Christ's advent.

Then you can say that, since you believe that God forbade polygamy for Christianity, that a Christian can not have a second wife as that would be invalid marriage and thus he would be committing adultery, that is something I can accept. But God did not prescribe such law for us, any marriage up to the fourth is valid and not considered as fornication or adultery.

Quote
NO. The Qur'an NEVER presents Adam and Eve's relation as the perfect pattern of marriage endorsed by God. This is why the Genesis verse that Christ refers to in His Gospel is missing from your scripture. More, your Allah even says he put enmity between Adam and his wife when he banished them from heaven.

Be careful not to express heretical views, if the relationship between Adam and Eve was perfect then she wouldn't have lead him to his and her downfall.

Quote
I am proud that I rejected all the Islamic innovations and inventions going against Christ and the Bible. Praised be the name of Elohim YHWH who saved me from the pit of Islam.

The only thing you seem to be save from is your salvation. What a dreadful safety that is!

Quote
Your Allah disagrees with you.

You are also committing a logical fallacy here again. The question whether a religion is universal or not is dependent on its message, not on the number of its fractions. According to your faulty reasoning, people need a new universal religion now because Islam has many fractions.

No, it's not dependant on fractions, but the fact that Christianity was intended to the Israelites but heretics like Paul spread it to the gentiles lead to the never ending deviation and schisms we're witnessing today.

Quote
Red herring! Torturing is not the same as deceiving. These two notions are not even related. If you think otherwise, you have serious issues. I say that GOD does not deceive. Satan is the deceiver. Your Qur'an teaches otherwise. It says Allah's guile is strong whereas Satan's guile is weak.

Everything that happens to men, be it deceive, torture or else happens by the will of the Almighty for God is omnipotent and nothing happens against his will.

Quote
Another logical fallacy. You are resorting to circular reasoning now.

It is equally absurd to intorduce a supposed absurdity as evidence for an allegation. Today's people have the ENTIRE Qur'an. They have the full text so as to check if their memorization is accurate. We cannot say the same about the unidentified people who lived in Mohammad's time. They had no text to follow and see if their recitation was correct. They also had new material added to their previous recitation. It would be natural for them to make mistakes and confuse similar narratives that varied only in details. I have already given you an example for such inevitable mistakes and variations.

The fact that they lived during the revelation makes it easier for them not harder, they had more time to memorize, just about everyone in the community was an exempler Muslim so most of them were trying to memorize it as well, which means that they could ask just the next guy if they wanted help a bout a passage, not to mention that they lived with the best of man kind himself.

Quote
I want to know in Arabic what those magicians precisely said. Was it so difficult for your Allah to translate their utterance into Arabic? Actually, it is not a translation issue since the difference is only in the order of the two people. Do you mean Egyptians could not say Moses' name first because of their language? This is ridiculous! How could they say Moses' name first in the two other verses then?

Why would you want the precise translation? Perhaps they made an hour speech talking about internal affairs of Egyptian state and society and talked about their families something that can not be recorded in the Quran. They also could've just pointed to Moses and Aaron where were standing next to them and said we believe in their God, or perhaps, Moses and Aaron asked them if they believed in their God and they said yes. The essential is that they believed in the God of Moses and Aaron.

Quote
Your unsubstantiated claims are making an Islamic dance here. You are going for tawaf around some absurd allegations and reaching no place.

There's no dancing there, even before the reign of Uthman, there were Muslims all over the place, and all of them memorized big portions of the Quran if not all of it, this didn't change after he wrote down the Mus'haf.

Quote
We know the writers of the New Testament and the dates of their composition. Attacking Christianity will not save your Islam from critique. Only a fool would think otherwise.

I hope you did, but you don't and you know this.

Quote
Show me the Qur'an that was compiled by Abu Bakr, then I shall consider it a genuine book written by Mohammad's mentor.

The Quran was compiled by all Muslims in their hearts and minds.
 
Dear Mekki,

There is a long standing policy on these forums of NOT calling our Saints "heretics" and other such derogatory terms.

This has not been tolerated in the past on these forums when Christians say such things, let alone when a non-Christian comes here as a guest, and starts calling our Saints heretics. Please refrain from such name calling in the future, and if you wish to discuss St. Paul and his influence on Christianity in a scholarly manner, then please use scholarly terms. But please do not call our Saints "heretics".  Future infractions will result in harsher warnings or actions taken. While this is only your first infraction, you've been posting quite frequently with such absolute certitude that calling Paul a heretic in the manner in which you did, warrants a public warning (known as a "green dot warning") to last 7 days.
Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,435


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #139 on: July 16, 2010, 03:57:20 AM »

Quote
NO. The Qur'an NEVER presents Adam and Eve's relation as the perfect pattern of marriage endorsed by God. This is why the Genesis verse that Christ refers to in His Gospel is missing from your scripture. More, your Allah even says he put enmity between Adam and his wife when he banished them from heaven.

Be careful not to express heretical views, if the relationship between Adam and Eve was perfect then she wouldn't have lead him to his and her downfall.
You come to an Orthodox Christian discussion board to spew your anti-Christian message and have the gall to tell us not to express heretical views.  WOW! Shocked Roll Eyes

Quote
Your Allah disagrees with you.

You are also committing a logical fallacy here again. The question whether a religion is universal or not is dependent on its message, not on the number of its fractions. According to your faulty reasoning, people need a new universal religion now because Islam has many fractions.

No, it's not dependant on fractions, but the fact that Christianity was intended to the Israelites but heretics like Paul spread it to the gentiles lead to the never ending deviation and schisms we're witnessing today.
Unless your plan is to get into some really hot water, you're not going to get far on this forum by calling our greatest apostles heretics.  You'd better be very careful, then, whom you call a heretic around here.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 04:00:11 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #140 on: July 16, 2010, 04:15:19 AM »

Huh Could you at least share with us examples of events with which we're familiar? I've never seen this "teaching" before.

You think it was justifiable for the people who disbelieved in Moses based on the fact that no one saw him receiving the revelation?
Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #141 on: July 16, 2010, 04:32:26 AM »

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
What, then, does it mean to a Muslim to follow Christ?

It means that he worships God in the same manner that all prophets called for it, including Christ son of Mary. And we uphold the Law that God prescribed to us like he prescribed Laws to previous nations.

Really?

Moses began scripture (Genesis 2):
Quote
18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.


And with this wrote in Deutoronomy (you seem to be fond of Deutoronomy)24:
Quote
1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, 2 and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, 3 and the latter husband dislikes her and writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies, who took her to be his wife, 4 then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring guilt upon the land which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance.

and his successor in prophecy, Jeremiah (3) warns:
Quote
1 "If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, will he return to her? Would not that land be greatly polluted? You have played the harlot with many lovers; and would you return to me? says the LORD. 2 Lift up your eyes to the bare heights, and see! Where have you not been lain with? By the waysides you have sat awaiting lovers like an Arab in the wilderness. You have polluted the land with your vile harlotry

and the prophet Malachi, towards the end of the OT revelation chastises (2:)
Quote
13 And this again you do. You cover the LORD's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor at your hand. 14 You ask, "Why does he not?" Because the LORD was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Has not the one God made and sustained for us the spirit of life? And what does he desire? Godly offspring. So take heed to yourselves, and let none be faithless to the wife of his youth. 16 "For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel, and covering one's garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So take heed to yourselves and do not be faithless." 17 You have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet you say, "How have we wearied him?" By saying, "Every one who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delights in them." Or by asking, "Where is the God of justice?"

And the Author and Finisher of our Faith stated forever on the Sermon on the Mount (as His disciple Matthew records, 5):
Quote
31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
and as He refuted the Pharisees and instructed His Discples, including Matthew(19:)
Quote
3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" 4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" 8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."

But your prophet says (S. 2:229-230):
Quote
Divorce is twice; then honourable retention or setting free kindly. It is not lawful for you to take of what you have given them unless the couple fear they may not maintain God's bounds; if you fear they may not maintain God's bounds, it is no fault in them for her to redeem herself. Those are God's bounds; do not transgress them. Whosoever transgresses the bounds of God -- those are the evildoers. If he divorces her finally, she shall not be lawful to him after that, until she marries another husband. If he divorces her, then it is no fault in them to return to each other, if they suppose that they will maintain God's bounds. Those are God's bounds; He makes them clear unto a people that have knowledge.

and his followers legislated this abomination, including your master, Ibn Malik:
Quote
Yahya related to me from Malik from al-Miswar ibn Rifaa al-Quradhi from az-Zubayr ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr that Rifaa ibn Simwal divorced his wife, Tamima bint Wahb, in the time of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, three times. Then she married Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr and he turned from her and could not consummate the marriage and so he parted from her. Rifaa wanted to marry her again and it was mentioned to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and he forbade him to marry her. He said, "She is not halal for you until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.17)

Quote
Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad that A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said when asked whether it was permissible for a man to marry again a wife he had divorced irrevocably if she had married another man who divorced her before consummating the marriage, "Not until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.18)
and your "most authentic" authority, Bukhari, has this lovely vignette on the matter:
Quote
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715)

Note, the beating doesn't bother your prophet in the slightest (for one thing, he allows that).  Nor does the fact that the marriage is unhappy and she wants reconciliation with her first (and according to the Lord, true) husband mean anything. No. She must first have intercorse with a man she hates, and your prophet uses as an excuse that the husband could have sex years ago (since obviously, the sons were not recently conceived).

Nope. Not "upholding the Law that God prescribed to [you] like he prescribed Laws to previous nations." Rather creating an abomination that turns over God's established order for Creation, polluting the land with such harlotry. Such an abomination has passed into proverb in Egypt:
Quote
A thousand lovers rather than one Mostahel.

Many lovers or gallants cause less shame to a woman than one Mostahel. According to the Moslim law a person who has once divorced his wife cannot re-marry her, until she has been married to some other man who becomes her legitimate husband, cohabits with her for one night, and divorces her the next morning; after which the first husband may again possess her as his wife. Such cases are of frequent occurrence—as men in the haste of anger often divorce their wives by the simple expression which cannot be retracted. In order to regain his wife a man hires (at no inconsiderable rate) some peasant, whom he chooses from the ugliest that can be found in the streets; but who must engage effectually to consummate the nuptials. A temporary husband of this kind is called Mostahel, and is generally most disgusting to the wife.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4dUOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA25&dq=%22Mostahel%22&hl=en&ei=v20_TMe8A9PhnQfJnriHBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Mostahel%22&f=false
Does it disgust you?


I did say the Law that God prescribed to us. Laws are different for each nation, but when the Law ceases to exist it is then when one should be worried. God allowed the children of Adam to marry among each other, but the law was abolished after that, and laws don't get abrogated because God made a mistake like some weak-minded people think, it was all written before the creation of man, and you believe that the gospel (not to say God) forbade polygamy and marrying a divorced woman, whereas God allowed polygamy both for us and for the Israelites (Exodus 21:10).
Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,435


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #142 on: July 16, 2010, 04:49:51 AM »

Huh Could you at least share with us examples of events with which we're familiar? I've never seen this "teaching" before.

You think it was justifiable for the people who disbelieved in Moses based on the fact that no one saw him receiving the revelation?
Huh? Huh According to the Scriptures, what happened on Mt. Sinai happened in front of the entire Hebrew nation.  How can you say, then, that no one saw Moses receive the Law?  This same Hebrew people had already seen God's mighty works in their deliverance from Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, and the providence of the manna and the quail, events that had already marked Moses as a great prophet even before he received the Law.  So I really have no idea what you're talking about.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 05:04:48 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #143 on: July 16, 2010, 04:50:47 AM »

I understand it is quite chic now in Spain to claim Moorish blood, just as a few decades everyone denied any ancestors except Visigoths and Romans.  Some I understand embrace Islam.  Much like the fad among blacks in the states to convert to Islam as an "African" thing. Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

I don't know about that, Spanish folks still have a deep hate to anything moro, they are one of the most xenophobic people in Europe. But what you said is possible, I'm just glad you didn't came up with a theory that he was forced to convert or else he would be massacred.

Quote
So you said you are convinced the da'wah is doing fine in Africa.  I have no vested interest in convincing you otherwise.  I know what I know.  The Orthodox Church had not spread as fast nor as far as I'd like, but I want the whole continent baptized by the heir of the preaching of St. Mark (the Christian equivalent of 'Amr b. 'As, except St. Mark came from Africa and came without a sword). So it's all relative to me.

I have made it quite clear that I'm anti-modern, anti-humanist and most certainly anti-pacifist in doctrine, so you can drop the sword thing, I have nothing against Islam being istablished in certain places through war as it was propagated in other places by wandering individuals and groups though preaching. As I don't have a problem with Christian Roman and Byzantine empires, despite their over the limit brutality in psreading and defending Christianity which was a negative trait of course. I actually have a deep respect for them.

Quote
As for normal matter, I usually see quite a hullabaloo at a conversion to Islam, at least when the convert is white.  No problem: we celebrate a baptism, any baptism.  The baptism of former Muslims I've been to were the same as baptism of my children or a convert from other forms of Christianity. Of course we celebrate.

I don't know what you mean by white, most people here where I live have fairer skin and hair than most Italians for example, but any way, I guarantee it to you that there were no hullabalou, I didn't even tell anyone about this except in here. A friend of mine, who comes from a big (in stature) sherif family in Chefchaouen, told me once about his uncle I guess who is the representative of a traiqa in the city that he gets tons of former Christians as disciples from all over the world  who come to learn the Arabic language, fiqh, tasawwuf and other beneficial sciences, and again I can guarantee it to you that no hullabalou takes place, as no hullabalou happens when thousands of people convert for more utilitarian reasons, like for marriage.
Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2010, 05:01:01 AM »

You can check out any of the many, many, many things he claims in it.

I think we made the math for that, and it figured!

Quote
I curious, since you are Morroccan, is their any memory of Gen. Muhammad Ufqir and his family? You know that they all (except the general, being killed and all) have been baptized.

I only know about the daughter, but to be completely honest I would be curious if she didn't. Becoming atheist Christians is the only logical conclusion for people like her who try anything they can to become Europeans, who live their entire lives in the country without being able to put together a coherent sentence in Arabic (Moroccan or Classical) or Berber, who never put their forehead on the ground, at least not in prayer.
Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #145 on: July 16, 2010, 05:06:43 AM »

You come to an Orthodox Christian discussion board to spew your anti-Christian message and have the gall to tell us not to express heretical views.  WOW! Shocked Roll Eyes

I'm not telling you to do anything, I'm you humble guest here, and the fact that I can express my view here is due to your appreciated generosity. It's just that mr. Theophilos expresses a lot of clearly unorthodox views, so I'm just trying to keep the discussion on track.

Unless your plan is to get into some really hot water, you're not going to get far on this forum by calling our greatest apostles heretics.  You'd better be very careful, then, whom you call a heretic around here.

I apologize. But that was an indirect way to express my view on the rather dubious role of Paul in Christianity.
Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #146 on: July 16, 2010, 05:08:56 AM »

Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

Are you counting the some blacks that make up the Nation of Islam? Some in the NOI claim some 50,000 members (possibly more or less) and I don't think one can really count them as Muslims. I'm sure Mekki wouldn't since I've never heard of any real Muslim who has. I would say that the majority of black Muslims in America are part of the NOI though I could be wrong.

They have almost all converted to orthodox Islam, alhamdulillah. They moved from darkness to another dorakness to blinding light.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 05:34:13 AM by Mekki » Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,435


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #147 on: July 16, 2010, 05:29:08 AM »

You come to an Orthodox Christian discussion board to spew your anti-Christian message and have the gall to tell us not to express heretical views.  WOW! Shocked Roll Eyes

I'm not telling you to do anything, I'm you humble guest here, and the fact that I can express my view here is due to your appreciated generosity. It's just that mr. Theophilos expresses a lot of clearly unorthodox views, so I'm just trying to keep the discussion on track.
1.  If he's no longer Muslim, why cry that his views are unorthodox?  I think he's very happy he no longer toes the line of Islamic "orthodoxy".
2.  If you're not Christian, then who are you to even tell us what orthodox Christian belief is?
3.  The whole issue of this thread since you joined in has been the question of what the truth is.  Since, by definition, orthodoxy is based on truth, if we can't agree on what the truth is, then we certainly can't agree on a definition of what is orthodox and what is unorthodox.  Your definition of orthodoxy and our definition of orthodoxy are two totally different bodies of doctrine.

Unless your plan is to get into some really hot water, you're not going to get far on this forum by calling our greatest apostles heretics.  You'd better be very careful, then, whom you call a heretic around here.

I apologize. But that was an indirect way to express my view on the rather dubious role of Paul in Christianity.
Dubious role?  How so?
Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #148 on: July 16, 2010, 08:08:58 AM »


I apologize if that came off as a personal attack.

It sounded so, but apology accepted.

Then you can say that, since you believe that God forbade polygamy for Christianity, that a Christian can not have a second wife as that would be invalid marriage and thus he would be committing adultery, that is something I can accept. But God did not prescribe such law for us, any marriage up to the fourth is valid and not considered as fornication or adultery.

God did not give you another Law than Christ's statements. It was Mohammad who fabricated his scripture and imposed his rules on you without God's consent.

Be careful not to express heretical views, if the relationship between Adam and Eve was perfect then she wouldn't have lead him to his and her downfall.

I did not say the relation between Adam and Eve were perfect, but I do not also believe that God put enmity between Adam and Eve at the time of their banishment from Heaven. Imperfect or impaired relations do not necessarily require enmity.

The only thing you seem to be save from is your salvation. What a dreadful safety that is!

You sound like your pagan prophet.  laugh

No, it's not dependant on fractions, but the fact that Christianity was intended to the Israelites but heretics like Paul spread it to the gentiles lead to the never ending deviation and schisms we're witnessing today.

What you are saying now is not relevant to what you said previously on this issue.

Muslims suffer from a psychological sickness: Paulophobia.

Your Allah seems unaware of Paul and his actions though. He once said Christ's disciples prevailed the party of the disbelievers. That makes a lot of sense when we remember how God and Christ supported Paul in the spread of the Gospel to the entire world.

An important note: Your scripture says Jesus and His mother were made a sign for MANKIND, not only for Israel. Thus, the Qur'an designates not only Mohammad, but also Jesus as a mercy to humanity. Read your scripture better.


Everything that happens to men, be it deceive, torture or else happens by the will of the Almighty for God is omnipotent and nothing happens against his will.

Your Allah may be deceiving you now by asking you to follow Mohammad. How do you know he will not say on the Day of Judgment: "Surprise! I fooled you guys when I made Mohammad a prophet. This was a test that all Muslims failed".  laugh

The fact that they lived during the revelation makes it easier for them not harder, they had more time to memorize, just about everyone in the community was an exempler Muslim so most of them were trying to memorize it as well, which means that they could ask just the next guy if they wanted help a bout a passage, not to mention that they lived with the best of man kind himself.

NO. It is easier to memorize a fixed and concrete text rather than an abstract one in progress.

Islamic history rebuts your allegation. There arose many problems concerning the reading of certain verses after Mohammad's death. More, there was no one to check the accuracy of the recitation after Mohammad's death. How can you know for sure that those people did not make deliberate or accidental changes to the particular text in their memory? There was no standard document when Mohammad died.

Above all, the Qur'an contains textual variations, which proves that the memorization process was not smooth and perfect.

Why would you want the precise translation? Perhaps they made an hour speech talking about internal affairs of Egyptian state and society and talked about their families something that can not be recorded in the Quran. They also could've just pointed to Moses and Aaron where were standing next to them and said we believe in their God, or perhaps, Moses and Aaron asked them if they believed in their God and they said yes. The essential is that they believed in the God of Moses and Aaron.

I do not want maybes. If the Qur'an is truly a revelation and dictation from your Allah, I naturally expect it to have no textual variations and anomalies.

I am repeating my question: Did the Egyptians say "Lord of Aaron and Moses" or "Lord of Moses and Aaron"? Was it difficult or impossible for your Allah to get the precise order of that sequence and reveal it to you in the Qur'an?  Roll Eyes


There's no dancing there, even before the reign of Uthman, there were Muslims all over the place, and all of them memorized big portions of the Quran if not all of it, this didn't change after he wrote down the Mus'haf.

Then why was there a need for a textual arrangement? Why did Uthman deem it necessary to standardize the Qur'an before multiplying its copies?

I hope you did, but you don't and you know this.
Grin


The Quran was compiled by all Muslims in their hearts and minds.

Wrong answer! I did not ask who it was compiled by. My question is: where is the Qur'an of Abu Bakr's time? Give it to me for a comparison.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #149 on: July 16, 2010, 09:32:45 AM »

You can check out any of the many, many, many things he claims in it.

I think we made the math for that, and it figured!

Not with what he stated. I'm curious: what number do you cliam for Christians converting to Islam every year.

Quote
I curious, since you are Morroccan, is their any memory of Gen. Muhammad Ufqir and his family? You know that they all (except the general, being killed and all) have been baptized.

I only know about the daughter, but to be completely honest I would be curious if she didn't. Becoming atheist Christians is the only logical conclusion for people like her who try anything they can to become Europeans, who live their entire lives in the country without being able to put together a coherent sentence in Arabic (Moroccan or Classical) or Berber, who never put their forehead on the ground, at least not in prayer.
[/quote]
My understanding was that they were Berbers.  They don't have a standard, as far as I know, and many adopt French, rather than Arabic.  I'm not crazy about that, but I can't fault their reasoning.  I've never heard her speak (have you?), so I can't judge her abilities in Classical Arabic (I don't understand Morroccan and don't know Berber).

What do you insinuate she puts her forehead to the ground for?

As for Eurabia, again, the stories (with some truth in them) run in the Muslim/Arab media, Europe should be Muslim already. So what would be the attraction for an atheist to be baptized to become European?

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #150 on: July 16, 2010, 09:51:34 AM »

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
What, then, does it mean to a Muslim to follow Christ?

It means that he worships God in the same manner that all prophets called for it, including Christ son of Mary. And we uphold the Law that God prescribed to us like he prescribed Laws to previous nations.

Really?

Moses began scripture (Genesis 2):
Quote
18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.


And with this wrote in Deutoronomy (you seem to be fond of Deutoronomy)24:
Quote
1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, 2 and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, 3 and the latter husband dislikes her and writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies, who took her to be his wife, 4 then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring guilt upon the land which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance.

and his successor in prophecy, Jeremiah (3) warns:
Quote
1 "If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, will he return to her? Would not that land be greatly polluted? You have played the harlot with many lovers; and would you return to me? says the LORD. 2 Lift up your eyes to the bare heights, and see! Where have you not been lain with? By the waysides you have sat awaiting lovers like an Arab in the wilderness. You have polluted the land with your vile harlotry

and the prophet Malachi, towards the end of the OT revelation chastises (2:)
Quote
13 And this again you do. You cover the LORD's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor at your hand. 14 You ask, "Why does he not?" Because the LORD was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Has not the one God made and sustained for us the spirit of life? And what does he desire? Godly offspring. So take heed to yourselves, and let none be faithless to the wife of his youth. 16 "For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel, and covering one's garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So take heed to yourselves and do not be faithless." 17 You have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet you say, "How have we wearied him?" By saying, "Every one who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delights in them." Or by asking, "Where is the God of justice?"

And the Author and Finisher of our Faith stated forever on the Sermon on the Mount (as His disciple Matthew records, 5):
Quote
31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
and as He refuted the Pharisees and instructed His Discples, including Matthew(19:)
Quote
3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" 4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" 8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."

But your prophet says (S. 2:229-230):
Quote
Divorce is twice; then honourable retention or setting free kindly. It is not lawful for you to take of what you have given them unless the couple fear they may not maintain God's bounds; if you fear they may not maintain God's bounds, it is no fault in them for her to redeem herself. Those are God's bounds; do not transgress them. Whosoever transgresses the bounds of God -- those are the evildoers. If he divorces her finally, she shall not be lawful to him after that, until she marries another husband. If he divorces her, then it is no fault in them to return to each other, if they suppose that they will maintain God's bounds. Those are God's bounds; He makes them clear unto a people that have knowledge.

and his followers legislated this abomination, including your master, Ibn Malik:
Quote
Yahya related to me from Malik from al-Miswar ibn Rifaa al-Quradhi from az-Zubayr ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr that Rifaa ibn Simwal divorced his wife, Tamima bint Wahb, in the time of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, three times. Then she married Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr and he turned from her and could not consummate the marriage and so he parted from her. Rifaa wanted to marry her again and it was mentioned to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and he forbade him to marry her. He said, "She is not halal for you until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.17)

Quote
Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad that A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said when asked whether it was permissible for a man to marry again a wife he had divorced irrevocably if she had married another man who divorced her before consummating the marriage, "Not until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.18)
and your "most authentic" authority, Bukhari, has this lovely vignette on the matter:
Quote
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715)

Note, the beating doesn't bother your prophet in the slightest (for one thing, he allows that).  Nor does the fact that the marriage is unhappy and she wants reconciliation with her first (and according to the Lord, true) husband mean anything. No. She must first have intercorse with a man she hates, and your prophet uses as an excuse that the husband could have sex years ago (since obviously, the sons were not recently conceived).

Nope. Not "upholding the Law that God prescribed to [you] like he prescribed Laws to previous nations." Rather creating an abomination that turns over God's established order for Creation, polluting the land with such harlotry. Such an abomination has passed into proverb in Egypt:
Quote
A thousand lovers rather than one Mostahel.

Many lovers or gallants cause less shame to a woman than one Mostahel. According to the Moslim law a person who has once divorced his wife cannot re-marry her, until she has been married to some other man who becomes her legitimate husband, cohabits with her for one night, and divorces her the next morning; after which the first husband may again possess her as his wife. Such cases are of frequent occurrence—as men in the haste of anger often divorce their wives by the simple expression which cannot be retracted. In order to regain his wife a man hires (at no inconsiderable rate) some peasant, whom he chooses from the ugliest that can be found in the streets; but who must engage effectually to consummate the nuptials. A temporary husband of this kind is called Mostahel, and is generally most disgusting to the wife.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4dUOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA25&dq=%22Mostahel%22&hl=en&ei=v20_TMe8A9PhnQfJnriHBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Mostahel%22&f=false
Does it disgust you?


I did say the Law that God prescribed to us. Laws are different for each nation, but when the Law ceases to exist it is then when one should be worried. God allowed the children of Adam to marry among each other, but the law was abolished after that, and laws don't get abrogated because God made a mistake like some weak-minded people think, it was all written before the creation of man, and you believe that the gospel (not to say God) forbade polygamy and marrying a divorced woman, whereas God allowed polygamy both for us and for the Israelites (Exodus 21:10).

In other words, it doesn't disgust you.  Just want to be clear.

Search the OT: each and every single case of polygamy it shows its ugly side, and how bad things result.  The idea is to learn from other's mistakes, and not repeat them. Btw, the verse you cite is dealing with slave girls, and the law that if a master slept with one, he had to treat her as a full fledged wife, and could not sell her, and if replaced her with another wife, he had to set her free, with no payment. A far, far cry from what goes on in Islam.  I have to say I was somewhat distressed when reading the biographies of prominent Muslims, how their mothers, over and over, were slave girls.

God is not al-Jabbaar "the compeler."  You are free to do as you like. If someone wants to marry his sister, claiming God allowed Cain and Abel to do that (and Abraham), he is free to do so.  He is just not free to claim God's seal of approval.

You claim God abolished prophethood after the 7th century, yet Baha'ullah came from among you, claimed prophethood, and also banned polygamy.  Why should I take Muhammad's word over Baha'ullah, in particular as I know the Lord final statement on the matter?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2010, 10:01:46 AM »

Huh Could you at least share with us examples of events with which we're familiar? I've never seen this "teaching" before.

You think it was justifiable for the people who disbelieved in Moses based on the fact that no one saw him receiving the revelation?
Huh? Huh According to the Scriptures, what happened on Mt. Sinai happened in front of the entire Hebrew nation.  How can you say, then, that no one saw Moses receive the Law?  This same Hebrew people had already seen God's mighty works in their deliverance from Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, and the providence of the manna and the quail, events that had already marked Moses as a great prophet even before he received the Law.  So I really have no idea what you're talking about.
LOL. He doesn't either.  This is the problem with the "Abrahamic Religions" idea in promoting a Judeo-Christian-Muslim culture, the last one doesn't have the same ideas as the first two.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,519



WWW
« Reply #152 on: July 16, 2010, 10:14:26 AM »


No, it's not dependant on fractions, but the fact that Christianity was intended to the Israelites but heretics like Paul spread it to the gentiles lead to the never ending deviation and schisms we're witnessing today.


Who told you that Christianity was only intended for the Israelites?

Just a few references....

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.




Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #153 on: July 16, 2010, 10:32:02 AM »

I understand it is quite chic now in Spain to claim Moorish blood, just as a few decades everyone denied any ancestors except Visigoths and Romans.  Some I understand embrace Islam.  Much like the fad among blacks in the states to convert to Islam as an "African" thing. Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

I don't know about that, Spanish folks still have a deep hate to anything moro, they are one of the most xenophobic people in Europe. But what you said is possible, I'm just glad you didn't came up with a theory that he was forced to convert or else he would be massacred.

I don't have any facts to speculate on. At first glance, having lived in the Muslim world and seen European-Local interaction, my first thought was the Morroccan partner prevailed on the European, since the Quran is available in Spain.

Quote
Quote
So you said you are convinced the da'wah is doing fine in Africa.  I have no vested interest in convincing you otherwise.  I know what I know.  The Orthodox Church had not spread as fast nor as far as I'd like, but I want the whole continent baptized by the heir of the preaching of St. Mark (the Christian equivalent of 'Amr b. 'As, except St. Mark came from Africa and came without a sword). So it's all relative to me.

I have made it quite clear that I'm anti-modern, anti-humanist and most certainly anti-pacifist in doctrine, so you can drop the sword thing,


LOL. The idea is that you drop the sword thing. I have other instructions. John 18:11.

The problem of appealing to the sword to spread your faith, is that it depends on your grip on the sword. It also calls into question the motives of your converts," the issue which you supposedly say is most important in Islam, hadith #1.

Quote
I have nothing against Islam being istablished in certain places through war as it was propagated in other places by wandering individuals and groups though preaching. As I don't have a problem with Christian Roman and Byzantine empires, despite their over the limit brutality in psreading and defending Christianity which was a negative trait of course. I actually have a deep respect for them.

Enough to believe fables of Roman atrocities, the "defensive" nature of Tabuk (where your prophet failed to engage the Romans, and fell on extorting jizyah from the local tribes instead), etc. while ignoring the conduct of the Muslims, which in its more bizarre moments included human sacrifice (e.g. Muhammad b. Marwan in Armenia and Asia Minor).

I do have to thank you: non-believers trying to pull the Church down often ask what this difference between Christ and Muhammad.  Any excess in spreading and defending Christendom dishonors the Lord, and we are ashamed of them.  You honor your prophet by the sword.

Quote
Quote
As for normal matter, I usually see quite a hullabaloo at a conversion to Islam, at least when the convert is white.  No problem: we celebrate a baptism, any baptism.  The baptism of former Muslims I've been to were the same as baptism of my children or a convert from other forms of Christianity. Of course we celebrate.

I don't know what you mean by white, most people here where I live have fairer skin and hair than most Italians for example, but any way, I guarantee it to you that there were no hullabalou, I didn't even tell anyone about this except in here. A friend of mine, who comes from a big (in stature) sherif family in Chefchaouen, told me once about his uncle I guess who is the representative of a traiqa in the city that he gets tons of former Christians as disciples from all over the world  who come to learn the Arabic language, fiqh, tasawwuf and other beneficial sciences, and again I can guarantee it to you that no hullabalou takes place, as no hullabalou happens when thousands of people convert for more utilitarian reasons, like for marriage.
I once remember being "corrected" by a Morrocan (who wanted to convert me for marriage) that it wasnt' simply shahadah to convert. You had to have the Quran, the witnesses, the sheikh, etc. etc. etc.

I can only vouch from the ones I've seen.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 11:02:03 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,266



« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2010, 10:54:17 AM »

Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

Are you counting the some blacks that make up the Nation of Islam? Some in the NOI claim some 50,000 members (possibly more or less) and I don't think one can really count them as Muslims. I'm sure Mekki wouldn't since I've never heard of any real Muslim who has. I would say that the majority of black Muslims in America are part of the NOI though I could be wrong.

They have almost all converted to orthodox Islam, alhamdulillah. They moved from darkness to another dorakness to blinding light.

Are you sure? I've heard them claim that they have around 50,000 or more followers.
Logged
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #155 on: July 16, 2010, 10:58:12 AM »

Not with what he stated. I'm curious: what number do you cliam for Christians converting to Islam every year.

I was talking about the math we did with dividing the number of Christians i the cotinent on the number of years that missionary work was active there and getting a number close to 6 million.

Probably the guy considered that every one that converted to Christianity was a potentianl Muslim convert, se it's one that the Nation lost, which is evidenced by him talking about Islam and Christianity being the noly religions in Africa.

Quote
My understanding was that they were Berbers.  They don't have a standard, as far as I know, and many adopt French, rather than Arabic.  I'm not crazy about that, but I can't fault their reasoning.  I've never heard her speak (have you?), so I can't judge her abilities in Classical Arabic (I don't understand Morroccan and don't know Berber).

It has nothing to dowith being of arabi-speaking or Berber-speaking ancestry, there's just a type of rich people living in this country in complete detachment from their environment, like I said, a lot of them can't even speak Arabic or Berber properly. Religious and cultural identity has nothing to do with language here, for example: Here in the Rig range of mountains where I live, there's the Arabic speaking Jbala in the west and the Berber speaking Rouafa in the east, both are extremely close to each other in culture and different from other Arabic-speaking and Berber-speaking groups in the country though they share language with them. These Rouafa are also the most conservative people in the country. May God benefit us from them.

Quote
What do you insinuate she puts her forehead to the ground for?

I was talking about prayer.

Quote
As for Eurabia, again, the stories (with some truth in them) run in the Muslim/Arab media, Europe should be Muslim already. So what would be the attraction for an atheist to be baptized to become European?

I don't watch the media you're talking about, but anyway, those people I spoke of are modern European in culture, which means religion is the very least of theire concerns, but since most Europeans are nominally Chrsitian, it wouldn't be a very big suprize if one of them converted just to severe any links he has with non-Western culture. The point is, she will never be a saint of the Catholic Church and you will never see her in church.

[/quote]
Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,224


« Reply #156 on: July 16, 2010, 11:02:00 AM »

Quote
I was talking about prayer.

Oh no you weren't  Cheesy 
Logged
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #157 on: July 16, 2010, 11:07:55 AM »

Search the OT: each and every single case of polygamy it shows its ugly side, and how bad things result.  The idea is to learn from other's mistakes, and not repeat them. Btw, the verse you cite is dealing with slave girls, and the law that if a master slept with one, he had to treat her as a full fledged wife, and could not sell her, and if replaced her with another wife, he had to set her free, with no payment. A far, far cry from what goes on in Islam.  I have to say I was somewhat distressed when reading the biographies of prominent Muslims, how their mothers, over and over, were slave girls.

I'm not saying that polygamy is preferred to monogamy, we're just discussing your claim that Islam broke came with a law that it would be inconceivalbe for God to make, which is allowing polygamy.
If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self- restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (the holiest of books 4:128-129)

The Prophet's marriages are by consensus not a Sunna.

Quote
God is not al-Jabbaar "the compeler." 

So you believe that if God wills something and man wills another thing that God's will can be broken? We believe that man has the freedom of choice but nothing happens against the will of the Omnipotent.

Quote
You claim God abolished prophethood after the 7th century, yet Baha'ullah came from among you, claimed prophethood, and also banned polygamy.  Why should I take Muhammad's word over Baha'ullah, in particular as I know the Lord final statement on the matter?

Because, without looking at the religion itself, everything that Baha'ism can claim to be is already fulfilled by Islam, which is a universal Religion that calls for the worship of God in the Prophetic tradition while being able to maintain its purity and integrity as it spread and went on in time.
Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #158 on: July 16, 2010, 11:25:02 AM »

Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

Are you counting the some blacks that make up the Nation of Islam? Some in the NOI claim some 50,000 members (possibly more or less) and I don't think one can really count them as Muslims. I'm sure Mekki wouldn't since I've never heard of any real Muslim who has. I would say that the majority of black Muslims in America are part of the NOI though I could be wrong.

They have almost all converted to orthodox Islam, alhamdulillah. They moved from darkness to another dorakness to blinding light.

Are you sure? I've heard them claim that they have around 50,000 or more followers.

Warith Deen Muhammad, Elijah's son, disbanded the Nation and took those who would follow him into mainstream Islam, recognizing them into American Society of Muslims and founding Mosque Cares for the propagation of Islam.  They have a very traditional, very prominent, mosque just blocks of Farrakhan's house.  Oddly, his following still celebrate "Savior's Day," the birthday of their god (yes, they believe in incarnation) Wallace Fard Muhammad, but reinterpreting it as a celebration of the history of the Nation of Islam and Elijah Muhammad.

Farrakhan orgainzed the remnants and built it up.  The New Black Panther Party (the ones involved in the Voter intimidation suit that the Holder's Department won, and then he dropped the suit), are an offshoot/auxiliary, with Khalid Abdul Muhammad (whose name means, btw "worshipper of Muhammad") and Malik Shabazz Zulu (how original). So it could have 50,000 sympathizers.  Active members, probably not. But even with that, with about 375,560 black muslims in the US, they would still be a minority.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #159 on: July 16, 2010, 11:48:18 AM »

Search the OT: each and every single case of polygamy it shows its ugly side, and how bad things result.  The idea is to learn from other's mistakes, and not repeat them. Btw, the verse you cite is dealing with slave girls, and the law that if a master slept with one, he had to treat her as a full fledged wife, and could not sell her, and if replaced her with another wife, he had to set her free, with no payment. A far, far cry from what goes on in Islam.  I have to say I was somewhat distressed when reading the biographies of prominent Muslims, how their mothers, over and over, were slave girls.

I'm not saying that polygamy is preferred to monogamy, we're just discussing your claim that Islam broke came with a law that it would be inconceivalbe for God to make, which is allowing polygamy.

No, the original post was about the idea that before a reconciliation can take place, the wife has to be whored out first. I wouldn't dishonor polygamy by calling that polygamy.  And yes, Islam came up with that law, because it contradicts the whole of the OT and NT.

Quote
If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self- restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (the holiest of books 4:128-129)
Prostitution as holy. Both OT and NT did away with that idea.

So, why isn't cruelty a grounds for divorce for the woman? Btw, by your "holiest of books" you are never able to be fari and just as between woman, so your favorite verse, Exodus 21:10-11, precludes you from polygamy.

Quote
The Prophet's marriages are by consensus not a Sunna.

Yes, his sunnah "do as I say, not as I do."

Quote
Quote
God is not al-Jabbaar "the compeler."

So you believe that if God wills something and man wills another thing that God's will can be broken? We believe that man has the freedom of choice but nothing happens against the will of the Omnipotent.

Explain the Fall then.

God created man in His Image and Likeness.  Free will is part of that, and God doesn't interfer with it.  The Crucifixion is the proof of that.  Coming down from the Cross or summoned legions of angels was easy.  Enduring the Cross and choosing to drink the cup, that was divine.

Quote
You claim God abolished prophethood after the 7th century, yet Baha'ullah came from among you, claimed prophethood, and also banned polygamy.  Why should I take Muhammad's word over Baha'ullah, in particular as I know the Lord final statement on the matter?

Because, without looking at the religion itself, everything that Baha'ism can claim to be is already fulfilled by Islam,[/quote]

and as we Christians have no need of Islam for that reason (among others), what is your basis to deny Bahaa'ullaah? Or for that matter, Guru Nanak Dev or Joseph Smith Jr.?

Quote
which is a universal Religion that calls for the worship of God in the Prophetic tradition while being able to maintain its purity and integrity as it spread and went on in time.
LOL. Pure Islam, where's that?

Intergrity: you have been killing each other at least since the time of 'Uthman.  In the geographic center  of your world, a Shi'ite dominiation cuts from Lebanon and Syria, through Iraq (with a substantial undercurrent in the Gult) and Iran into Pakistan, whose founder was Shi'ite. Come to think of it, the origns of your own state is Shi'ite as well.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #160 on: July 16, 2010, 11:59:58 AM »

What do you insinuate she puts her forehead to the ground for?

I was talking about prayer.

No, you were specifically not talking about prayer.

, who never put their forehead on the ground, at least not in prayer.

Quote
As for Eurabia, again, the stories (with some truth in them) run in the Muslim/Arab media, Europe should be Muslim already. So what would be the attraction for an atheist to be baptized to become European?

I don't watch the media you're talking about, but anyway, those people I spoke of are modern European in culture, which means religion is the very least of theire concerns, but since most Europeans are nominally Chrsitian, it wouldn't be a very big suprize if one of them converted just to severe any links he has with non-Western culture. The point is, she will never be a saint of the Catholic Church and you will never see her in church.
Again, I am amazed at your ability to read hearts.

The Apostle Paul started out as the great persecutor of the Church, and ended up as her pillar.  Christians have a firm faith in redemption. Pity your Islam does not.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Nazarene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaism
Jurisdiction: Messianic
Posts: 520


David ben Yessai


« Reply #161 on: July 16, 2010, 12:14:29 PM »

Beware! You are calling hedonistic the man who never missed a prayer (as hard as it is to do so concerning Islamic canonical prayer), not only that but he spent hours upon hours in non-canonical prayer every day. The man who spent days upon days eating nothing but rough bread, the man who never had fancy clothings nor build a mansion for himself even though he could have anything he wanted as was the ruler of all Arabia.

You might find stuff like that impressive but GOD does not:

5 And when you pray, you should not be as the hypocrites, who love to stand in the synagogues and on the corners of the marketplaces to pray, to be seen by men. And truly I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, enter your room and close your door and pray to your Father, who is in secret, and your Father, who sees in secret, will repay you openly. 7 And when you are praying, you should not talk idly as the heathens [do], for they think that they are heard by much speaking. 8 Therefore, do not imitate them, for your Father knows what is needed by you before you ask him. (Matthew 6:5-8)

16 Now when you fast, you should not be sad as the hypocrites, for they distort their faces so that they may be seen by men that they are fasting. And truly I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, wash your face and anoint your head, 18 so that [the fact that] you are fasting may not be seen by men, but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:16-18)

Also GOD emphatically states that good deeds do not atone for sins, and that worship no matter how sincere means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to Him if the person offering worship does evil and does not repent of the evil things they do:

11 “What need have I of all your sacrifices?” Says YHWH. “I am sated with burnt offerings of rams, And suet of fatlings, And blood of bulls; And I have no delight In lambs and he-goats.  12 That you come to appear before ME -- Who asked that of you? Trample MY courts  13 no more; Bringing oblations is futile, Incense is offensive to ME. New moon and sabbath, Proclaiming of solemnities, Assemblies with iniquity, I cannot abide.  14 Your new moons and fixed seasons Fill ME with loathing; They are become a burden to ME, I cannot endure them.  15 And when you lift up your hands, I will turn MY eyes away from you; Though you pray at length, I will not listen. Your hands are stained with crime – 16 Wash yourselves clean; Put your evil doings Away from My sight. Cease to do evil;  17 Learn to do good. Devote yourselves to justice; Aid the wronged. Uphold the rights of the orphan; Defend the cause of the widow. (Isaiah 1:11-17)

In fact GOD says that when a sinner does not repent, his good deeds are not even acknowledged:

20 And when a righteous man abandons his righteousness, and commits a crime, and I shall bring punishment before him, he shall die, because you did not warn him: he shall die in his sins, because his righteous deeds shall not be remembered; but a reckoning for his blood will I require from you. (Ezekiel 3:20)

Quote from: Mekki
Everything that happens to men, be it deceive, torture or else happens by the will of the Almighty for God is omnipotent and nothing happens against his will.

So then Mekki what is the point of Judgement Day? How can your Allah hold people accountable for things that in reality he willed? What is his basis for doing so, if ultimately he is the one who made the people do the things that they did? Or maybe the real purpose of Judgement Day is for humanity put your Allah on trial, because he has actually given each of us the grounds to point our fingers and say to his face: “YOU made me do it!” Grin

Quote from: Theophilos78
Your Allah may be deceiving you now by asking you to follow Mohammad. How do you know he will not say on the Day of Judgment: "Surprise! I fooled you guys when I made Mohammad a prophet. This was a test that all Muslims failed".

Hehe, as much as Muslims may not want to admit it their theology actually allows for this sort of outcome!


Logged
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #162 on: July 16, 2010, 12:43:29 PM »

No, the original post was about the idea that before a reconciliation can take place, the wife has to be whored out first. I wouldn't dishonor polygamy by calling that polygamy.  And yes, Islam came up with that law, because it contradicts the whole of the OT and NT.

From what I saw as a kid on TV, it seems that that is a problem in Egypt, or at least a hot topic for TV shows, so I see your good will in trying to narrate even as you them, but the fact is, dear kind sir, is that this practice is frawned upon by knoweldgeable people. You can't pull tricks on the Law, you can't wear a wig to cover your hear and you can't bring someone to marry a woman and then divorce so you can marry her again.

Quote
Yes, his sunnah "do as I say, not as I do.

If people were to do as the best of Creation did you  would see a lot more Muslims living in extreme poverty, wearing simple clothes and and having  simple houses even when they can acquire all the riches they want, you'd see more Muslims praying for long hour during the day and nights, people who are firm in face of the enemy in the battle field but kind to any one else, Muslim or not, and always smiling. You'd see a lot of Mosesian and Christian people.

Quote
God created man in His Image and Likeness.  Free will is part of that, and God doesn't interfer with it.

Why do you pray for God for your bread then? Everything that happens in the heavens and the earth happens by the will of God. But even with this doctrine of you, what's you objection on the Al-Jabbar name? Do you believe that if God wanted something to happen that there can be anything that would intervene with his will? Keep in mind that God gave us free will.

Quote
and as we Christians have no need of Islam for that reason (among others), what is your basis to deny Bahaa'ullaah? Or for that matter, Guru Nanak Dev or Joseph Smith Jr.?

I think we've talked more than enough about why Islam and not Christianity.

Quote
Intergrity: you have been killing each other at least since the time of 'Uthman.  In the geographic center  of your world, a Shi'ite dominiation cuts from Lebanon and Syria, through Iraq (with a substantial undercurrent in the Gult) and Iran into Pakistan, whose founder was Shi'ite. Come to think of it, the origns of your own state is Shi'ite as well.

Hating kuffar may very well hate, but 90% alhamdulillah.
Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #163 on: July 16, 2010, 12:49:05 PM »

Beware! You are calling hedonistic the man who never missed a prayer (as hard as it is to do so concerning Islamic canonical prayer), not only that but he spent hours upon hours in non-canonical prayer every day. The man who spent days upon days eating nothing but rough bread, the man who never had fancy clothings nor build a mansion for himself even though he could have anything he wanted as was the ruler of all Arabia.

You might find stuff like that impressive but GOD does not:

5 And when you pray, you should not be as the hypocrites, who love to stand in the synagogues and on the corners of the marketplaces to pray, to be seen by men. And truly I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, enter your room and close your door and pray to your Father, who is in secret, and your Father, who sees in secret, will repay you openly. 7 And when you are praying, you should not talk idly as the heathens [do], for they think that they are heard by much speaking. 8 Therefore, do not imitate them, for your Father knows what is needed by you before you ask him. (Matthew 6:5-8)

16 Now when you fast, you should not be sad as the hypocrites, for they distort their faces so that they may be seen by men that they are fasting. And truly I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, wash your face and anoint your head, 18 so that [the fact that] you are fasting may not be seen by men, but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:16-18)

Also GOD emphatically states that good deeds do not atone for sins, and that worship no matter how sincere means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to Him if the person offering worship does evil and does not repent of the evil things they do:

11 “What need have I of all your sacrifices?” Says YHWH. “I am sated with burnt offerings of rams, And suet of fatlings, And blood of bulls; And I have no delight In lambs and he-goats.  12 That you come to appear before ME -- Who asked that of you? Trample MY courts  13 no more; Bringing oblations is futile, Incense is offensive to ME. New moon and sabbath, Proclaiming of solemnities, Assemblies with iniquity, I cannot abide.  14 Your new moons and fixed seasons Fill ME with loathing; They are become a burden to ME, I cannot endure them.  15 And when you lift up your hands, I will turn MY eyes away from you; Though you pray at length, I will not listen. Your hands are stained with crime – 16 Wash yourselves clean; Put your evil doings Away from My sight. Cease to do evil;  17 Learn to do good. Devote yourselves to justice; Aid the wronged. Uphold the rights of the orphan; Defend the cause of the widow. (Isaiah 1:11-17)

In fact GOD says that when a sinner does not repent, his good deeds are not even acknowledged:

20 And when a righteous man abandons his righteousness, and commits a crime, and I shall bring punishment before him, he shall die, because you did not warn him: he shall die in his sins, because his righteous deeds shall not be remembered; but a reckoning for his blood will I require from you. (Ezekiel 3:20)

The stories aboug the Prophet's praying habits are often narrated by our mother Aisha as he prayed most of the time in the secret of his home, often under the cover of night.

Quote
So then Mekki what is the point of Judgement Day? How can your Allah hold people accountable for things that in reality he willed? What is his basis for doing so, if ultimately he is the one who made the people do the things that they did? Or maybe the real purpose of Judgement Day is for humanity put your Allah on trial, because he has actually given each of us the grounds to point our fingers and say to his face: “YOU made me do it!” Grin

Man is given the freedom to do good or evil, but whatever he does never happens against the will of God. Quote simple really.
Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
Mekki
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Maliki
Posts: 174



« Reply #164 on: July 16, 2010, 12:52:03 PM »

OK, nice folks, we have a multi-day hiking trip to plan and make, so I won't be posting here for the three coming days. May be I'll even post some picture here  Wink

Logged

إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #165 on: July 16, 2010, 01:40:16 PM »

No, the original post was about the idea that before a reconciliation can take place, the wife has to be whored out first. I wouldn't dishonor polygamy by calling that polygamy.  And yes, Islam came up with that law, because it contradicts the whole of the OT and NT.

From what I saw as a kid on TV, it seems that that is a problem in Egypt, or at least a hot topic for TV shows, so I see your good will in trying to narrate even as you them, but the fact is, dear kind sir, is that this practice is frawned upon by knoweldgeable people. You can't pull tricks on the Law, you can't wear a wig to cover your hear and you can't bring someone to marry a woman and then divorce so you can marry her again.

Frowned on or not, it happens. And it is far, far, far from limited to Egypt: shari'ah is supposed to be universal.

What were you watching as a kid?
Quote
Quote
Yes, his sunnah "do as I say, not as I do."

If people were to do as the best of Creation did you  would see a lot more Muslims living in extreme poverty, wearing simple clothes and and having  simple houses even when they can acquire all the riches they want, you'd see more Muslims praying for long hour during the day and nights, people who are firm in face of the enemy in the battle field but kind to any one else, Muslim or not, and always smiling. You'd see a lot of Mosesian and Christian people.

Yeah, lots of Mosaic (Musawi) and Christians in Mecca and Medinah nowadays. And I've seen plenty of Muslims living in extreme poverty.  A Muslim woman/Muslima (a convert, btw. Canadian) used to work with then in Afghanistan. She said they always asked "we see the Christians always coming here to help us. Where are the Muslims?" Then came the Taliban to answer that.

Creation could do better than changing the law so one can have your adopted son divorce his wife so you can marry her, along with the half dozen wives you already have.

Quote
Quote
God created man in His Image and Likeness.  Free will is part of that, and God doesn't interfer with it.

Why do you pray for God for your bread then?

You mean, why do I pray as God Himself taught us to pray?  I'm going to skip discussing the Eucharist (the Heavenly Break the Our Father speaks about) and just point out, if you are going to ask someone for something, you should address yourself to someone who can deliver the goods.

Quote
Everything that happens in the heavens and the earth happens by the will of God.

You are confusing that with your dogma that God wills everything that happens, a different matter.

Quote
But even with this doctrine of you, what's you objection on the Al-Jabbar name?

It calls God a tyrant.

Quote
Do you believe that if God wanted something to happen that there can be anything that would intervene with his will?

No, but that's not the point of the matter. God has willed that man have free will.  That was what your whole argument with Pope Benedict XVI was about, when he quoted the Orthodox Emperor Manuel.

Quote
Keep in mind that God gave us free will.

Can you quote a Muslim source on that?

Quote
Quote
and as we Christians have no need of Islam for that reason (among others), what is your basis to deny Bahaa'ullaah? Or for that matter, Guru Nanak Dev or Joseph Smith Jr.?

I think we've talked more than enough about why Islam and not Christianity.
Dodging does count as talking.

Quote
Intergrity: you have been killing each other at least since the time of 'Uthman.  In the geographic center  of your world, a Shi'ite dominiation cuts from Lebanon and Syria, through Iraq (with a substantial undercurrent in the Gult) and Iran into Pakistan, whose founder was Shi'ite. Come to think of it, the origns of your own state is Shi'ite as well.

Hating kuffar may very well hate, but 90% alhamdulillah.
[/quote]
I'm not sure who you are calling kuffar: you brothers in Islam, the Shi'ties? Btw, they are catching up: even if we count Majoritarian/Ijami/Sunni Islam as one monolithic (problematic on many fronts), the Shi'tes of the various schools are around 15% of all Muslims now. (for one thing, Iran only had 35 million when the shah fell, it now has after a generation 75 million, at least 90% Twelver (there are other minority Shi'ite groups there as well). The Twelvers have come out of hiding in Iraq and are starting to in Turkey and Pakistan, so that trend is going to continue. I was suprised to hear of Shi'ah in Nigeria.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #166 on: July 16, 2010, 01:40:56 PM »

OK, nice folks, we have a multi-day hiking trip to plan and make, so I won't be posting here for the three coming days. May be I'll even post some picture here  Wink



enjoy, I understand the scenery in Morroco is fantastic.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,156



WWW
« Reply #167 on: July 22, 2010, 09:19:27 PM »

OK, nice folks, we have a multi-day hiking trip to plan and make, so I won't be posting here for the three coming days. May be I'll even post some picture here  Wink

OK. sounds nice. Please post some photos. Salaam.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 09:19:46 PM by rakovsky » Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,156



WWW
« Reply #168 on: July 22, 2010, 09:23:32 PM »

Or [St.] Pavle of Serbia?

Holy Patriarch Pavle, pray for us!
This photo looks familiar. I am sure I saw it someplace before.
Logged
Tags: Islam 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.192 seconds with 61 queries.