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Author Topic: Quran texts appear on baby's body in Dagestan  (Read 14450 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« on: October 15, 2009, 01:29:28 PM »



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Moscow, October 15, Interfax - Quotations from Quran start appearing on the body of a 9-month boy named Ali from Kizlyar, Dagestan, his parents claim.

Birthmarks in form of Arabic scripts have been appearing on the baby's body since his birth. First, there were individual letters, then texts and, according to local imams, these are texts from the Quran, the Vesti TV has reported on Thursday.

Thus, one of the baby's legs has an inscription, "Allah is the creator of all things."

"First, there was a hematoma on his chin. When the bruise went off, we saw the word "Allah," Ali's mother Madina Yakubova said.

Words similar to birthmarks show up on his shank and ankle usually on Monday and Friday and then disappear.

When new inscriptions are appearing, Ali doesn't sleep all night long and has high temperature and even strong drugs cannot send it off.

The TV channel reported that Ali was diagnosed "ischemic heart disease of the second degree" and "infantile cerebral paralysis" in the maternity clinic. However, when inexplicable things started happening, he was examined and found healthy.

Hundreds of Dagestan Muslims come to Ali's house as pilgrims. Local authorities, beware of the rush, decided to guard the house round-the-clock.

source

What do you think about it?

Please, move it to the right board.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 01:38:19 PM by mike » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2009, 02:24:22 PM »

This is a contact dermatitis.  (The baby's leg touched a "chemical" of some type.)  Or this could possibly be Familial Juvenile Onset Psoriasis.

Once I walked through forest and was exposed to poison ivy.  My rash said, " I bet I can use this rash to make a religious statement or better yet I can use it to make $$$$$$$$$$." (I'm joking.)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 02:49:40 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2009, 03:00:12 PM »



Quote
Moscow, October 15, Interfax - Quotations from Quran start appearing on the body of a 9-month boy named Ali from Kizlyar, Dagestan, his parents claim.

Birthmarks in form of Arabic scripts have been appearing on the baby's body since his birth. First, there were individual letters, then texts and, according to local imams, these are texts from the Quran, the Vesti TV has reported on Thursday.

Thus, one of the baby's legs has an inscription, "Allah is the creator of all things."

"First, there was a hematoma on his chin. When the bruise went off, we saw the word "Allah," Ali's mother Madina Yakubova said.

Words similar to birthmarks show up on his shank and ankle usually on Monday and Friday and then disappear.

When new inscriptions are appearing, Ali doesn't sleep all night long and has high temperature and even strong drugs cannot send it off.

The TV channel reported that Ali was diagnosed "ischemic heart disease of the second degree" and "infantile cerebral paralysis" in the maternity clinic. However, when inexplicable things started happening, he was examined and found healthy.

Hundreds of Dagestan Muslims come to Ali's house as pilgrims. Local authorities, beware of the rush, decided to guard the house round-the-clock.

source

What do you think about it?

Please, move it to the right board.

I can't tell for sure, because it isn't big enough, but it seems the middle word is misspelt.
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2009, 03:05:42 PM »

This is a contact dermatitis.  (The baby's leg touched a "chemical" of some type.)  Or this could possibly be Familial Juvenile Onset Psoriasis.

Once I walked through forest and was exposed to poison ivy.  My rash said, " I bet I can use this rash to make a religious statement or better yet I can use it to make $$$$$$$$$$." (I'm joking.)


I once saw God in a cloud but I think I may have been tripping... It was a long time ago. police
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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2009, 03:21:25 PM »



Quote
Moscow, October 15, Interfax - Quotations from Quran start appearing on the body of a 9-month boy named Ali from Kizlyar, Dagestan, his parents claim.

Birthmarks in form of Arabic scripts have been appearing on the baby's body since his birth. First, there were individual letters, then texts and, according to local imams, these are texts from the Quran, the Vesti TV has reported on Thursday.

Thus, one of the baby's legs has an inscription, "Allah is the creator of all things."

"First, there was a hematoma on his chin. When the bruise went off, we saw the word "Allah," Ali's mother Madina Yakubova said.

Words similar to birthmarks show up on his shank and ankle usually on Monday and Friday and then disappear.

When new inscriptions are appearing, Ali doesn't sleep all night long and has high temperature and even strong drugs cannot send it off.

The TV channel reported that Ali was diagnosed "ischemic heart disease of the second degree" and "infantile cerebral paralysis" in the maternity clinic. However, when inexplicable things started happening, he was examined and found healthy.

Hundreds of Dagestan Muslims come to Ali's house as pilgrims. Local authorities, beware of the rush, decided to guard the house round-the-clock.

source

What do you think about itis

Please, move it to the right board.

I can't tell for sure, because it isn't big enough, but it seems the middle word is misspelt.
Shhhhh!  Please be more careful!  You disproved the mystical event.  (It can't be a message from God because God has excellent diction.)  There will now be a fatwa on ialmisry.  We will try to protect you, brother.  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 03:28:17 PM »

If this baby is being given “strong medicines”  it could have developed a morbilliform rash.  This occurs with a reaction to some antibiotics.

Fifth disease ( a Parvovirus) also causes scattered morbilliform rashes.  Everybody eventually has Fifth disease.

The baby could also have one/several naevus flammeus that manefest more distinctly when the child is vasodilated (hyperemic-has a fever).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 03:39:11 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2009, 05:26:59 PM »

Quote
What do you think about it?

I'm generally skeptical of any claimed miracles, whether they be Christian, Muslim, or any other religion. I guess my reaction here is... shrug my shoulders, and wait and see if more to the story shows up.  Thanks for posting it, though. Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2009, 05:51:27 PM »

I Have A Muslim shia Pakistani Friend ,he mentioned to me when they were Celebrating one of their Holy days ,people bring all kinds of food and they all share it ...
He mentioned at that time he noticed ,they could of feed the whole world the food never ran out it kept multiplying ,he recognized a miracle from God that day,,,So Does God work miracles in other faiths i would say yes...
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 06:36:05 PM »

I Have A Muslim shia Pakistani Friend ,he mentioned to me when they were Celebrating one of their Holy days ,people bring all kinds of food and they all share it ...
He mentioned at that time he noticed ,they could of feed the whole world the food never ran out it kept multiplying ,he recognized a miracle from God that day,,,So Does God work miracles in other faiths i would say yes...
But not miracles with Catholics right?  Wink
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2009, 06:47:55 PM »

Quote
Phenolphthalein, commonly used as a pH indicator, turns pink in the presence of a base such as ammonia fumes or sodium carbonate.
Source

One theory:

Babies produce a lot of ammnoia in their urine, smell like ammnoia and someone at the hospital in Dagestan (Chechnya) had access to Phenolphthalein.
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2009, 06:54:31 PM »

But not miracles with Catholics right?  Wink

Please don't get him started again!  And whatever you do, don't bring up the stigmata.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 06:59:38 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2009, 06:56:50 PM »

Henna painting, anyone? Or potassium permanganate solution?
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2009, 07:00:07 PM »



Quote
Moscow, October 15, Interfax - Quotations from Quran start appearing on the body of a 9-month boy named Ali from Kizlyar, Dagestan, his parents claim.

Birthmarks in form of Arabic scripts have been appearing on the baby's body since his birth. First, there were individual letters, then texts and, according to local imams, these are texts from the Quran, the Vesti TV has reported on Thursday.

Thus, one of the baby's legs has an inscription, "Allah is the creator of all things."

"First, there was a hematoma on his chin. When the bruise went off, we saw the word "Allah," Ali's mother Madina Yakubova said.

Words similar to birthmarks show up on his shank and ankle usually on Monday and Friday and then disappear.

When new inscriptions are appearing, Ali doesn't sleep all night long and has high temperature and even strong drugs cannot send it off.

The TV channel reported that Ali was diagnosed "ischemic heart disease of the second degree" and "infantile cerebral paralysis" in the maternity clinic. However, when inexplicable things started happening, he was examined and found healthy.

Hundreds of Dagestan Muslims come to Ali's house as pilgrims. Local authorities, beware of the rush, decided to guard the house round-the-clock.

source

What do you think about it?

Please, move it to the right board.
There are three possibilities: (1) biochemical explanation; (2) God-miracle; or (3) psycho-somatic manifestation. (Or all three Roll Eyes)
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2009, 07:09:24 PM »

Henna painting, anyone? Or potassium permanganate solution?

The latter serves as a disinfectant and oxidizer.  In these former Soviet areas, strong stuff is likely used to treat Parovirii, if that is what the baby really has....

Quote
Dry crystals and concentrated solutions are caustic causing redness, pain, severe burns, brown stains in the contact area and possible hardening of outer skin layer. Diluted solutions are only mildly irritating to the skin
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2009, 08:05:31 PM »

I Have A Muslim shia Pakistani Friend ,he mentioned to me when they were Celebrating one of their Holy days ,people bring all kinds of food and they all share it ...
He mentioned at that time he noticed ,they could of feed the whole world the food never ran out it kept multiplying ,he recognized a miracle from God that day,,,So Does God work miracles in other faiths i would say yes...
But not miracles with Catholics right?  Wink


Those catholic marian apparitions all false ...but other micacles possable maybe ,,Orthodoxy would have to do a through investigation though...
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2009, 09:47:10 PM »

I Have A Muslim shia Pakistani Friend ,he mentioned to me when they were Celebrating one of their Holy days ,people bring all kinds of food and they all share it ...
He mentioned at that time he noticed ,they could of feed the whole world the food never ran out it kept multiplying ,he recognized a miracle from God that day,,,So Does God work miracles in other faiths i would say yes...
But not miracles with Catholics right?  Wink


Those catholic marian apparitions all false ...but other micacles possable maybe ,,Orthodoxy would have to do a through investigation though...

Just because something works or is miraculous doesnt mean it comes from God.
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2009, 10:42:36 PM »

I Have A Muslim shia Pakistani Friend ,he mentioned to me when they were Celebrating one of their Holy days ,people bring all kinds of food and they all share it ...
He mentioned at that time he noticed ,they could of feed the whole world the food never ran out it kept multiplying ,he recognized a miracle from God that day,,,So Does God work miracles in other faiths i would say yes...
But not miracles with Catholics right?  Wink


Those catholic marian apparitions all false ...but other micacles possable maybe ,,Orthodoxy would have to do a through investigation though...

Thanks papist!  angel
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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2009, 10:48:48 PM »

Quite honestly, I'm so skeptical about these kinds of *miracles*, Orthodox or non-Orthodox. Anything can be faked, any story can do the rounds - so I'm inclined not to care one way or the other whether this is from a spelling impared Allah or Aunty Jasmine, whose a dab hand with the henna.
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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2009, 11:39:07 PM »

I like how some people here investigated ways these words are written with the assumption it's not a miracle.  I really do like that.  I just hope that we do the same when a self-proclaimed "Orthodox" miracle comes to light.  I hate it when people bring up miracles like a magic show on display for all to watch, and not concentrate on the subjective spiritual experience it gives only to some people.
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« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2009, 12:12:33 AM »

I like how some people here investigated ways these words are written with the assumption it's not a miracle.  I really do like that.  I just hope that we do the same when a self-proclaimed "Orthodox" miracle comes to light.  I hate it when people bring up miracles like a magic show on display for all to watch, and not concentrate on the subjective spiritual experience it gives only to some people.

You forgot something:



You can borrow mine if you want.  I just finished using it in another thread.
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« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2009, 12:30:05 AM »

Others would be skeptical about weeping icons, too. Someone mentioned the subjective religious experience it gives to the one who (may) experience it. Same on this end of things, too. I don't think God works miracles only to Orthodox Christians, or Christians, for that matter. 'Let it be....'
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« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2009, 01:16:10 AM »

I Have A Muslim shia Pakistani Friend ,he mentioned to me when they were Celebrating one of their Holy days ,people bring all kinds of food and they all share it ...
He mentioned at that time he noticed ,they could of feed the whole world the food never ran out it kept multiplying ,he recognized a miracle from God that day,,,So Does God work miracles in other faiths i would say yes...
But not miracles with Catholics right?  Wink


Those catholic marian apparitions all false ...but other micacles possable maybe ,,Orthodoxy would have to do a through investigation though...
I suppose hypocrisy is a hard subject for us to understand, isn't it? Undecided
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 01:17:03 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2009, 09:42:36 AM »



Quote
Moscow, October 15, Interfax - Quotations from Quran start appearing on the body of a 9-month boy named Ali from Kizlyar, Dagestan, his parents claim.
Birthmarks in form of Arabic scripts have been appearing on the baby's body since his birth. First, there were individual letters, then texts and, according to local imams, these are texts from the Quran, the Vesti TV has reported on Thursday.
Thus, one of the baby's legs has an inscription, "Allah is the creator of all things."
"First, there was a hematoma on his chin. When the bruise went off, we saw the word "Allah," Ali's mother Madina Yakubova said.
Words similar to birthmarks show up on his shank and ankle usually on Monday and Friday and then disappear.
quote]
source

What do you think about it?
Please, move it to the right board.

The integrity of the media in question non-withstanding, it is quite amazing and even frightening sometimes what can be done with photoshop. But too, like someone else pointed out, even if it is real doesn't mean it's from God.
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« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2009, 11:08:21 AM »

There are three possibilities: (1) biochemical explanation; (2) God-miracle; or (3) psycho-somatic manifestation. (Or all three Roll Eyes)

How about a forth possibility:  It's a hoax.
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« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2009, 11:12:15 AM »

I Have A Muslim shia Pakistani Friend ,he mentioned to me when they were Celebrating one of their Holy days ,people bring all kinds of food and they all share it ...
He mentioned at that time he noticed ,they could of feed the whole world the food never ran out it kept multiplying ,he recognized a miracle from God that day,,,So Does God work miracles in other faiths i would say yes...
But not miracles with Catholics right?  Wink


Those catholic marian apparitions all false ...but other micacles possable maybe ,,Orthodoxy would have to do a through investigation though...

Well well, aren't you just a regular little ecumenist??
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« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2009, 12:23:57 PM »

I Have A Muslim shia Pakistani Friend ,he mentioned to me when they were Celebrating one of their Holy days ,people bring all kinds of food and they all share it ...
He mentioned at that time he noticed ,they could of feed the whole world the food never ran out it kept multiplying ,he recognized a miracle from God that day,,,So Does God work miracles in other faiths i would say yes...
But not miracles with Catholics right?  Wink

chuckle....cyber high five for this one  Grin
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« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2009, 10:37:38 AM »

Okay, so Allah is the Creator of all things. But which one? Christians, pagans and Muslims are using the word Allah for the Creator of the universe.
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« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2009, 11:10:50 AM »

Okay, so Allah is the Creator of all things. But which one? Christians, pagans and Muslims are using the word Allah for the Creator of the universe.
There's only one Allah.
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« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2009, 02:19:22 PM »

Is it me or does the image appear to lighten with each reload?   Undecided  Huh  Undecided
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« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2009, 02:31:45 PM »

There are three possibilities: (1) biochemical explanation; (2) God-miracle; or (3) psycho-somatic manifestation. (Or all three Roll Eyes)

How about a forth possibility:  It's a hoax.
How about a fifth: It's a demonic miracle.
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« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2009, 02:45:23 PM »

I tend to think it's just a rash that some misguidedly pious souls have interpreted as a manifestation of what they venerate, much like those Christians who see the Virgin Mary in the burn pattern on a grilled cheese sandwich.
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« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2009, 05:22:29 PM »

I tend to think it's just a rash that some misguidedly pious souls have interpreted as a manifestation of what they venerate, much like those Christians who see the Virgin Mary in the burn pattern on a grilled cheese sandwich.
I wonder how clearly the text shows up. I'm not sure because I don't speak arabic.
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« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2009, 12:28:32 AM »

Definitely a henna tattoo....I can imagine who much more time-consuming this would take for a contact dermatitis.
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« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2009, 08:02:45 AM »

How about a fifth: It's a demonic miracle.
If the parents did it on purpose, can we still count it as a demonic work?
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« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2009, 08:45:16 AM »

I Have A Muslim shia Pakistani Friend ,he mentioned to me when they were Celebrating one of their Holy days ,people bring all kinds of food and they all share it ...
He mentioned at that time he noticed ,they could of feed the whole world the food never ran out it kept multiplying ,he recognized a miracle from God that day,,,So Does God work miracles in other faiths i would say yes...
But not miracles with Catholics right?  Wink
Don't be so hilarious, Papist... Personally, as anti-Catholic as I can be, i believe that many miracles performed by RC saints were genuine acts from God. As I already stated on another thread, God can summon saints outside of the Orthodox Church to bring light in these faiths and correct them, which doesn't mean that this unOrthodox faith is true, but just that it isn't as evil to prevent grace from existing there LOL

As for me, I don't believe that the picture of this topic represents any miracle. The content in itself isn't a pro-Quran quotation, since the same words can be used by Arabic Christians, and that God (ha-Elohim, translated literally as Allah) is Creator, I think there's no doubt. What makes me deny this as a miracle is the NEED of such a writing to appear on a baby, and I don't understand how useful this communication from Heaven might be.
Anyway, miracles aren't a part of our religious system until they receive an official recognition from the church - more or less as for canonizations of saints. You might believe in the sanctity of an individual at a personal level, but you can't call him a saint until the Church promotes his veneration with an official statement. The same for miracles. BTW, the Orthodox Church shouldn't investigate this subject too much... you should be concerned in recognizing how God works in our faith and not whether He works outside of it or not.

In Christ,   Alex

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2009, 10:38:28 AM »

If these markings actually say something (I don’t read Arabic) perhaps the child was tattooed.  Notice how the article previously said that the baby had a bruise which then turned into the word Allah.  Perhaps they experimented with his chin and then moved on to a bigger surface area.  ATTENTION DAGESTAN CHILDREN & YOUTH SERVICES!!!    Or maybe the tattoo artist was from children/youth services? Cry Cry
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« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2009, 09:07:42 PM »

unlikely a permanent tattoo because Islam forbids that..
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« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2009, 09:20:30 PM »

As the wise Kanye West says, "Tattoo boy's parents, Imma let you finish, but balloon boy's parents gave us one of the greatest hoaxes of all time!"
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« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2010, 08:40:33 AM »



Quote
Moscow, October 15, Interfax - Quotations from Quran start appearing on the body of a 9-month boy named Ali from Kizlyar, Dagestan, his parents claim.

Birthmarks in form of Arabic scripts have been appearing on the baby's body since his birth. First, there were individual letters, then texts and, according to local imams, these are texts from the Quran, the Vesti TV has reported on Thursday.

Thus, one of the baby's legs has an inscription, "Allah is the creator of all things."

"First, there was a hematoma on his chin. When the bruise went off, we saw the word "Allah," Ali's mother Madina Yakubova said.

Words similar to birthmarks show up on his shank and ankle usually on Monday and Friday and then disappear.

When new inscriptions are appearing, Ali doesn't sleep all night long and has high temperature and even strong drugs cannot send it off.

The TV channel reported that Ali was diagnosed "ischemic heart disease of the second degree" and "infantile cerebral paralysis" in the maternity clinic. However, when inexplicable things started happening, he was examined and found healthy.

Hundreds of Dagestan Muslims come to Ali's house as pilgrims. Local authorities, beware of the rush, decided to guard the house round-the-clock.

source

What do you think about it?

Please, move it to the right board.

I can't tell for sure, because it isn't big enough, but it seems the middle word is misspelt.

There's no misspelling there, the text in the image is  لو تعلمون ما أعلم لضحكتم قليلا ولبكيتم كثيرا, which means If you would know know what I know you youl've laughed a little and cried a lot (personal translation), and it's part of a hadith, perhaps he has the Quran passages elsewhere. The two letters ضح in the middle of the sentence are not clear due to the skin in the knee area.
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« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2010, 08:43:22 AM »

I found the pictures with the Quranic passages:





And here's a video by Reuters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE7t6wnfx0E&feature=fvw
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« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2010, 09:35:59 AM »

An overt fraud.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2010, 09:39:03 AM »

Looks like henna.
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« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2010, 10:05:30 AM »


....so why do the two photos "look" different.  I can't read either one, but, the text visible on the upper leg in the previous photos, is not present in the one above? 

Hmmm....

...and as for the "modesty" of Islamic women....pppppplease!  I live in an area densely populated by Muslims.  Yes, they cover their heads, but, what of the rest of them?  Some only cover their heads with a scarf and yet wear skin tight jeans, others, while completely covered still display the face with the false eye lashes and lips smeared with bright red lipstick.  What gives?  Isn't the point of covering up to be modest and not "tempt"...so what's the ruby red lipstick with liner for?

Besides being modest, the Islamic women I often encounter (and by no means is this true of ALL Islamic women), are rude and self-centered.  They cut in line in front of me all the time, and while speaking in Arabic sneer at me and giggle with their friends.  This happens ALL the time.  Sometimes I really want to say something, but, am scared of someone saying I am anti-Islamic.  I think they realize it and know they can get away with it. 

Thankfully, one time the group of women had their "guardian" man with them.  He noticed me looking at the ground and trying not to say something when all 5 of them stepped in front of me....and he ripped into them, apologized to me and told me to go in front of them.

Modesty is more than covering one's head.



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« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2010, 10:09:01 AM »

Looks like henna.

No. Henna leave a brown or orange trace, the writing in the pictures is pink/read. Besides, Henna produces a strong scent, which I can't tolerate by the way, even days afters it's applied. People sure would've smelled it.
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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2010, 10:10:02 AM »


....so why do the two photos "look" different.  I can't read either one, but, the text visible on the upper leg in the previous photos, is not present in the one above? 


They say in the reports that the writings come and go, so it's conceivable that they would change.
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« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2010, 02:42:39 AM »

An overt fraud.  Roll Eyes

It doesn't seem like it, Theop.
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« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2010, 03:22:59 AM »

An overt fraud.  Roll Eyes

It doesn't seem like it, Theop.

I consider the Qur'an a fraud in the first place.  Roll Eyes

... and I would never trust Muslims.
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« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2010, 03:25:48 AM »

An overt fraud.  Roll Eyes

It doesn't seem like it, Theop.

I consider the Qur'an a fraud in the first place.  Roll Eyes

... and I would never trust Muslims.

you ought to open your eyes, my dear friend, you ought to open your eyes.
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« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2010, 03:32:10 AM »


you ought to open your eyes, my dear friend, you ought to open your eyes.

I was blind, but Christ opened my eyes to His truth.  Wink
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« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2010, 03:38:56 AM »


you ought to open your eyes, my dear friend, you ought to open your eyes.

I was blind, but Christ opened my eyes to His truth.  Wink

If only you would follow Christ! May the almighty guide us to the followship of his Prophets!
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« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2010, 03:53:58 AM »


If only you would follow Christ! May the almighty guide us to the followship of his Prophets!

I follow Christ rather than a false prophet who tried to change Christ's Gospel 600 years after Him. Pray for yourself in the first place.  Wink
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« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2010, 03:56:02 AM »



I follow Christ


I hope you did, brother.

Quote

Pray for yourself in the first place.  Wink


I pray for all of us.
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« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2010, 04:01:23 AM »

If only you would follow Christ! May the almighty guide us to the followship of his Prophets!

Last time I checked, Mohammed was not a prophet of the Christians, nor will he ever be. The last prophet recognised by Christians is St John the Baptist.
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« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2010, 04:03:52 AM »

Even the Daily Mail, which often takes anti Islamic stances, states that doctors found the writings to be genuine.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1221481/Russians-left-puzzled-Koran-phrases-start-appearing-spontaneously-babys-skin.html
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« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2010, 04:21:46 AM »

Even the Daily Mail, which often takes anti Islamic stances, states that doctors found the writings to be genuine.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1221481/Russians-left-puzzled-Koran-phrases-start-appearing-spontaneously-babys-skin.html


The doctors did not say that the writing was miraculous. They did not make any comments on the source of the writings:

Medics deny that the marks are from someone writing on the child's skin.

Read how someone that viewed the video commented:

Oddly enough the camera cuts away just as the marks start to appear, so disabling us from seeing the alleged phrases from the Koran. Very disappointing.

 Roll Eyes



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« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2010, 04:33:17 AM »

Even the Daily Mail, which often takes anti Islamic stances, states that doctors found the writings to be genuine.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1221481/Russians-left-puzzled-Koran-phrases-start-appearing-spontaneously-babys-skin.html


The doctors did not say that the writing was miraculous. They did not make any comments on the source of the writings:

Medics deny that the marks are from someone writing on the child's skin.

Read how someone that viewed the video commented:

Oddly enough the camera cuts away just as the marks start to appear, so disabling us from seeing the alleged phrases from the Koran. Very disappointing.

 Roll Eyes





If they were not a result of natural phenomenon and not inflicted by the parents, how could've they happened? those two are the only possibilities.
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« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2010, 05:18:09 AM »


If they were not a result of natural phenomenon and not inflicted by the parents, how could've they happened? those two are the only possibilities.

This is YOUR opinion.

The doctors did not deny the other possibility.
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« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2010, 05:22:49 AM »


If they were not a result of natural phenomenon and not inflicted by the parents, how could've they happened? those two are the only possibilities.

This is YOUR opinion.

The doctors did not deny the other possibility.

Which possibility?
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« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2010, 05:31:18 AM »


If they were not a result of natural phenomenon and not inflicted by the parents, how could've they happened? those two are the only possibilities.

This is YOUR opinion.

The doctors did not deny the other possibility.


Pozdrav Brate..A
Question Huh curious...What is your opinion on muslims that lived and died,  never knowing the christian jesus, only the muslim isa..Though in life they lived ajust or rightious life...
In Holy scripture it says God will Judge a person in according to what  he/she has recieved,So will God Judge a Muslim according to the islamic faith they recieved ,in how they lived it and practiced it,since they didn't know the true ISUS HRISTOS in life...
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« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2010, 08:19:16 AM »


Muslims today have every chance of "knowing" Jesus Christ.  They choose not to.
Those who have heard of Him, and not followed Him, have chosen against Him.

These are not the Indians in the deep jungles of the Amazon who have no knowledge of Christ.

ALL Muslims have heard of Christ and rejected His true message.

...it is up to God to judge them, not us.  However....

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« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2010, 08:29:08 AM »


Muslims today have every chance of "knowing" Jesus Christ.  They choose not to.
Those who have heard of Him, and not followed Him, have chosen against Him.

These are not the Indians in the deep jungles of the Amazon who have no knowledge of Christ.

ALL Muslims have heard of Christ and rejected His true message.

...it is up to God to judge them, not us.  However....



Muslims have indeed heard Christ's calling, and they have answered.

May the Almighty resurrect us next to this Prophets.

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« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2010, 08:53:34 AM »


Pozdrav Brate..A
Question Huh curious...What is your opinion on muslims that lived and died,  never knowing the christian jesus, only the muslim isa..Though in life they lived ajust or rightious life...
In Holy scripture it says God will Judge a person in according to what  he/she has recieved,So will God Judge a Muslim according to the islamic faith they recieved ,in how they lived it and practiced it,since they didn't know the true ISUS HRISTOS in life...

Pozdrav  Smiley

I do not know, brate. God is merciful and righteous. We shall find out on the Day of Judgment how God will deal with Mohammad's followers.

Blessings,
Bogoljub
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« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2010, 08:56:14 AM »

Muslims have indeed heard Christ's calling, and they have answered.

May the Almighty resurrect us next to this Prophets.


This must be the joke of the day.  Grin

The person you heard and responded to was not Christ, but Mohammad. He lived 600 years after Christ and His Church, and tried to replace Christ's teaching with his evil and mundane ideology.
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« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2010, 09:09:25 AM »


Pozdrav Brate..A
Question Huh curious...What is your opinion on muslims that lived and died,  never knowing the christian jesus, only the muslim isa..Though in life they lived ajust or rightious life...
In Holy scripture it says God will Judge a person in according to what  he/she has recieved,So will God Judge a Muslim according to the islamic faith they recieved ,in how they lived it and practiced it,since they didn't know the true ISUS HRISTOS in life...

Pozdrav  Smiley

I do not know, brate. God is merciful and righteous. We shall find out on the Day of Judgment how God will deal with Mohammad's followers.

Blessings,
Bogoljub

Matthew 10:42 "And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."

One time in Upper Egypt, I was arguing with a Muslim on how Christ was the Son of God (I pointed out that God is all seeing although He had no eyes, so too His begetting was not precisely like ours, except that it resulted in someone of the same nature). He had started speaking to me in French (more common for foreignors at the time in Upper Egypt), thinking I didn't speak Arabic.  We were on a service taxi, going through the rural South.  Someone then asked in Arabic what we were talking about.  When the person I was speaking to said that I was Christian, the one asking went into a tirade about "infidels" and what should be done with them.  The person I was speaking to then started arguing with him, saying that Christianity came befor Islam, that we were not infidels etc. and that the Christians should be left alone.  I pray he not loose his reward.  God have mercy on them both.
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« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2010, 09:14:13 AM »



Quote
Moscow, October 15, Interfax - Quotations from Quran start appearing on the body of a 9-month boy named Ali from Kizlyar, Dagestan, his parents claim.

Birthmarks in form of Arabic scripts have been appearing on the baby's body since his birth. First, there were individual letters, then texts and, according to local imams, these are texts from the Quran, the Vesti TV has reported on Thursday.

Thus, one of the baby's legs has an inscription, "Allah is the creator of all things."

"First, there was a hematoma on his chin. When the bruise went off, we saw the word "Allah," Ali's mother Madina Yakubova said.

Words similar to birthmarks show up on his shank and ankle usually on Monday and Friday and then disappear.

When new inscriptions are appearing, Ali doesn't sleep all night long and has high temperature and even strong drugs cannot send it off.

The TV channel reported that Ali was diagnosed "ischemic heart disease of the second degree" and "infantile cerebral paralysis" in the maternity clinic. However, when inexplicable things started happening, he was examined and found healthy.

Hundreds of Dagestan Muslims come to Ali's house as pilgrims. Local authorities, beware of the rush, decided to guard the house round-the-clock.

source

What do you think about it?

Please, move it to the right board.
There are three possibilities: (1) biochemical explanation; (2) God-miracle; or (3) psycho-somatic manifestation. (Or all three Roll Eyes)
(4) Demonic possession (which might explain the misspelling).
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« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2010, 09:16:57 AM »

Muslims have indeed heard Christ's calling, and they have answered.

May the Almighty resurrect us next to this Prophets.


This must be the joke of the day.  Grin

The person you heard and responded to was not Christ, but Mohammad. He lived 600 years after Christ and His Church, and tried to replace Christ's teaching with his evil and mundane ideology.

The best of Creation, the one from who lights were split and secrets were divided, and on whom the knowledge of Adam descended, the one by the beauty of whom the gardens of the heavens are bright and the parterres of the Earth are vivid by the the overflow of his light only thought what the Prophets before him instructed, that the Almighty alone is worthy of worship. Though the difference that all of the messages of the previous Prophets were aimed at specific peoples, mainly the Israelities (including that of Christ), whereas the Mohammadan message is universal.

It's for that reason that when Judaics kept their religion to themselves and didn't aim at propagating it, Judaism was able to maintain its purity and unity. When Christianity was spread to the gentiles it knew all kinds of deviations to the degree that there are Churches by thousands non of whom worships God like the Israelites did.
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« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2010, 09:19:45 AM »



Quote
Moscow, October 15, Interfax - Quotations from Quran start appearing on the body of a 9-month boy named Ali from Kizlyar, Dagestan, his parents claim.

Birthmarks in form of Arabic scripts have been appearing on the baby's body since his birth. First, there were individual letters, then texts and, according to local imams, these are texts from the Quran, the Vesti TV has reported on Thursday.

Thus, one of the baby's legs has an inscription, "Allah is the creator of all things."

"First, there was a hematoma on his chin. When the bruise went off, we saw the word "Allah," Ali's mother Madina Yakubova said.

Words similar to birthmarks show up on his shank and ankle usually on Monday and Friday and then disappear.

When new inscriptions are appearing, Ali doesn't sleep all night long and has high temperature and even strong drugs cannot send it off.

The TV channel reported that Ali was diagnosed "ischemic heart disease of the second degree" and "infantile cerebral paralysis" in the maternity clinic. However, when inexplicable things started happening, he was examined and found healthy.

Hundreds of Dagestan Muslims come to Ali's house as pilgrims. Local authorities, beware of the rush, decided to guard the house round-the-clock.

source

What do you think about it?

Please, move it to the right board.
There are three possibilities: (1) biochemical explanation; (2) God-miracle; or (3) psycho-somatic manifestation. (Or all three Roll Eyes)
(4) Demonic possession (which might explain the misspelling).

Come on Egyptioan sir, you're better than that, you know very well there's no misspelling. Please see my first post in this thread (reply #38).
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« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2010, 09:46:35 AM »

Muslims have indeed heard Christ's calling, and they have answered.

May the Almighty resurrect us next to this Prophets.


This must be the joke of the day.  Grin

The person you heard and responded to was not Christ, but Mohammad. He lived 600 years after Christ and His Church, and tried to replace Christ's teaching with his evil and mundane ideology.

The best of Creation, the one from who lights were split and secrets were divided, and on whom the knowledge of Adam descended, the one by the beauty of whom the gardens of the heavens are bright and the parterres of the Earth are vivid by the the overflow of his light only thought what the Prophets before him instructed, that the Almighty alone is worthy of worship. Though the difference that all of the messages of the previous Prophets were aimed at specific peoples, mainly the Israelities (including that of Christ), whereas the Mohammadan message is universal.

Odd that for a universal message, it can only be in Arabic, whereas Christ sent the Holy Spirit down upond the Apostles to proclaim the Gospel in all languages to the ends of the earth.


Quote
It's for that reason that when Judaics kept their religion to themselves and didn't aim at propagating it, Judaism was able to maintain its purity and unity. When Christianity was spread to the gentiles it knew all kinds of deviations to the degree that there are Churches by thousands non of whom worships God like the Israelites did.

One of the oldest dialogues between Christians and Muslims was the exchange between the Emperor Leo III (before his iconoclams) and the Caliph Umar II.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1508294
When Umar II brought up all the sects of Christianity, which he numbered as 72 (from Muslim tradition, a confusion between the 72 nations that the 72 Apostles were sent to), Leo points out that Christianity from the start was among many languages and peoples and nations and as such over six centuries different sects would appear, but Islam was only one century old, sprung from only one people and language (which people and language, btw, included Leo: he was originally named Kanon and from Syria), and yet was already in a myriad of sects killing each other.  Leo also points out that the sects of Christianity die out (the only one which survives from Leo's time is the Nestorians), whereas the sects of Islam of its first generation, Shi'ite, Sunni (actually more accurately called Ijmaa'ii) and Khariji are still among us.

The Church of the NT worships as the Hebrew Church of the OT, just fulfilled. The Light has come, shadows disappear.
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« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2010, 09:58:09 AM »

Muslims have indeed heard Christ's calling, and they have answered.

May the Almighty resurrect us next to this Prophets.


This must be the joke of the day.  Grin

The person you heard and responded to was not Christ, but Mohammad. He lived 600 years after Christ and His Church, and tried to replace Christ's teaching with his evil and mundane ideology.

The best of Creation, the one from who lights were split and secrets were divided, and on whom the knowledge of Adam descended, the one by the beauty of whom the gardens of the heavens are bright and the parterres of the Earth are vivid by the the overflow of his light only thought what the Prophets before him instructed, that the Almighty alone is worthy of worship. Though the difference that all of the messages of the previous Prophets were aimed at specific peoples, mainly the Israelities (including that of Christ), whereas the Mohammadan message is universal.

Odd that for a universal message, it can only be in Arabic, whereas Christ sent the Holy Spirit down upond the Apostles to proclaim the Gospel in all languages to the ends of the earth.


Actually, the fact that Islam and Judaism have a strict position about the ecclesiastical stature of Arabic and Hebrew is part of the reason why they were able to mainain their purity.

That. Also, let us not forget that Orthodox churches also have ecclesiastical language. We are willing to take Protestant positions to bling ourselves, aren't we?


Quote

One of the oldest dialogues between Christians and Muslims was the exchange between the Emperor Leo III (before his iconoclams) and the Caliph Umar II.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1508294
When Umar II brought up all the sects of Christianity, which he numbered as 72 (from Muslim tradition, a confusion between the 72 nations that the 72 Apostles were sent to), Leo points out that Christianity from the start was among many languages and peoples and nations and as such over six centuries different sects would appear, but Islam was only one century old, sprung from only one people and language (which people and language, btw, included Leo: he was originally named Kanon and from Syria), and yet was already in a myriad of sects killing each other.  Leo also points out that the sects of Christianity die out (the only one which survives from Leo's time is the Nestorians), whereas the sects of Islam of its first generation, Shi'ite, Sunni (actually more accurately called Ijmaa'ii) and Khariji are still among us.

The Church of the NT worships as the Hebrew Church of the OT, just fulfilled. The Light has come, shadows disappear.


Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practise the religion according to the Sunna and the consensus of the Nation's scholars, and that was acchieved even though there were never a central spiritual authority and hardly a tempoal one. On the other hand, what exactly is the percentage of Christians which are Orthodox? How many Orthodox Churches out there. How many fights were there between Greeks, Copts, Russians etc about which ones will sit in which spot in the church of the Holy Sepulchre?

Alhamdulillah.
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« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2010, 10:04:17 AM »


The best of Creation, the one from who lights were split and secrets were divided, and on whom the knowledge of Adam descended, the one by the beauty of whom the gardens of the heavens are bright and the parterres of the Earth are vivid by the the overflow of his light only thought what the Prophets before him instructed, that the Almighty alone is worthy of worship. Though the difference that all of the messages of the previous Prophets were aimed at specific peoples, mainly the Israelities (including that of Christ), whereas the Mohammadan message is universal.

Bahais claim and teach the same about their faith and prophet. So what?

The Almighty alone is worthy of worship, but you worship a false prophet who speaks on behalf of the moon god.

The Qur'an says for itself that it is a reminder for Mohammad and his folk. How can it be universal then? Mohammad's little world contained only his folk? I see. Roll Eyes

It's for that reason that when Judaics kept their religion to themselves and didn't aim at propagating it, Judaism was able to maintain its purity and unity. When Christianity was spread to the gentiles it knew all kinds of deviations to the degree that there are Churches by thousands non of whom worships God like the Israelites did.

Put the blame on your imcompetent moon god, who failed to preserve his message and made things all the words when he attempted to correct his mistake 600 years later.  laugh
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« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2010, 10:31:27 AM »

Bahais claim and teach the same about their faith and prophet. So what?

Bahaism has no raison d'etre whatsoever, everything that it could claim to represent was already fulfilled by Islam as at is a strong and firm universal religion where God is worshipped and the Law is practised.

Quote
The Qur'an says for itself that it is a reminder for Mohammad and his folk. How can it be universal then? Mohammad's little world contained only his folk? I see. Roll Eyes

We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures. (21:107)

Quote
Put the blame on your imcompetent moon god, who failed to preserve his message and made things all the words when he attempted to correct his mistake 600 years later.  laugh

As you should believe, nothing happens without the will of God or against it. God sent his messages and gave humans the choice between following them or not. Christians are to be blamed for the deviation from Christ's message, like Hebrews are to be blamed for worshipping the golden calf.
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« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2010, 10:38:18 AM »

Muslims have indeed heard Christ's calling, and they have answered.

May the Almighty resurrect us next to this Prophets.


This must be the joke of the day.  Grin

The person you heard and responded to was not Christ, but Mohammad. He lived 600 years after Christ and His Church, and tried to replace Christ's teaching with his evil and mundane ideology.

The best of Creation, the one from who lights were split and secrets were divided, and on whom the knowledge of Adam descended, the one by the beauty of whom the gardens of the heavens are bright and the parterres of the Earth are vivid by the the overflow of his light only thought what the Prophets before him instructed, that the Almighty alone is worthy of worship. Though the difference that all of the messages of the previous Prophets were aimed at specific peoples, mainly the Israelities (including that of Christ), whereas the Mohammadan message is universal.

Odd that for a universal message, it can only be in Arabic, whereas Christ sent the Holy Spirit down upond the Apostles to proclaim the Gospel in all languages to the ends of the earth.


Actually, the fact that Islam and Judaism have a strict position about the ecclesiastical stature of Arabic and Hebrew is part of the reason why they were able to mainain their purity.

LOL.  Rabbinic Judaism isn't the religion of the Ancient Hebrews, and no sect of Islam has maintained an imagined "purity" from the time of the Prophet and Companions, unless expansive wars of religion against the outside and killing each other in the inside of the Dar al-Islam count.

Quote
That. Also, let us not forget that Orthodox churches also have ecclesiastical language. We are willing to take Protestant positions to bling ourselves, aren't we?

Actually the Protestant view of the Masoretic OT and Aland/Nestle Greek NT resembles the Muslim position on the Quranic text.

We have several ecclesiastical languages (including Arabic). One at least for each nation.


Quote
One of the oldest dialogues between Christians and Muslims was the exchange between the Emperor Leo III (before his iconoclams) and the Caliph Umar II.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1508294
When Umar II brought up all the sects of Christianity, which he numbered as 72 (from Muslim tradition, a confusion between the 72 nations that the 72 Apostles were sent to), Leo points out that Christianity from the start was among many languages and peoples and nations and as such over six centuries different sects would appear, but Islam was only one century old, sprung from only one people and language (which people and language, btw, included Leo: he was originally named Kanon and from Syria), and yet was already in a myriad of sects killing each other.  Leo also points out that the sects of Christianity die out (the only one which survives from Leo's time is the Nestorians), whereas the sects of Islam of its first generation, Shi'ite, Sunni (actually more accurately called Ijmaa'ii) and Khariji are still among us.

The Church of the NT worships as the Hebrew Church of the OT, just fulfilled. The Light has come, shadows disappear.

Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practise the religion according to the Sunna and the consensus of the Nation's scholars, and that was acchieved even though there were never a central spiritual authority and hardly a tempoal one. [/quote]

Really?  I knew those in Jordan, who, because they prayed according to the Maliki madhhab, the local Muslims refused to associate with them.  Pakistan has declared the Ahmadiyya non-Muslim.  Then their is the problems between the various Sufi tariqahs and the Ijmaa'i 'ulamaa'

As for central authority, there was one from the time of Muhammad to fall of the Umayyads (who imposed the Quran text as we have it on the Muslims, amongst other things). After that, the 'Abbasids ruled with an iron fist except in your neck of the woods, which became the lair of all sorts of discontents until the Murabitah and Muwahhiduun homogenized the lot into Ijmaa'i, specifically Maliki, Islam. And the caliphs and their successors exercised the authority to appoint qadis, extend patronage, commit persecusion (remember the Mihmah?). Several centuries of that, and then the Ottomans to cap it off, more than enough to impose some order.

Quote
On the other hand, what exactly is the percentage of Christians which are Orthodox? How many Orthodox Churches out there.

15 Autocephalous Chruches, and unlike your four madhhab, a bishop can go from any one to another, and a communicant in one is a communicant in the other 14.

Percentagewise, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church includes about 10%, second largest communion after the Vatican. But if numbers counted, why would you be Maliki, as it is followed only by 15% of the Muslims.

Quote
How many fights were there between Greeks, Copts, Russians etc about which ones will sit in which spot in the church of the Holy Sepulchre?
Between the Russians and Greeks, none. In fact, the fighting over "spots" didn't happen until the Muslims came, and especially after the Muslim rulers gave the keys to the Muslim families who have them now.  Gave the opportunity for the unconverted part of the Christian.

How many times did the Muslims destroy the Ka'bah in your fitnah's?
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« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2010, 10:42:34 AM »

Bahais claim and teach the same about their faith and prophet. So what?

Bahaism has no raison d'etre whatsoever, everything that it could claim to represent was already fulfilled by Islam as at is a strong and firm universal religion where God is worshipped and the Law is practised.

Islam has no raison d'etre whatsoever, everything that it could claim to represent was already fillfilled by Christianity (or at least, according to what the Quran claims it preached, Judaism) as it is the strong and firm unversal religion where God is worshipped in Spirit and Truth and the higher Law practised (or at least proclaimed: humans still have the struggle with the Old Adam).

Quote
Quote
The Qur'an says for itself that it is a reminder for Mohammad and his folk. How can it be universal then? Mohammad's little world contained only his folk? I see. Roll Eyes

We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures. (21:107)

Quote
Put the blame on your imcompetent moon god, who failed to preserve his message and made things all the words when he attempted to correct his mistake 600 years later.  laugh

As you should believe, nothing happens without the will of God or against it. God sent his messages and gave humans the choice between following them or not. Christians are to be blamed for the deviation from Christ's message, like Hebrews are to be blamed for worshipping the golden calf.

And Muslims for spreading the report "I [Muhammad] am Ahmad without the "m" [i.e. "Ahad" "One"=God]" anaa aHmadu bi-laa miim.
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« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2010, 10:56:29 AM »


Bahaism has no raison d'etre whatsoever, everything that it could claim to represent was already fulfilled by Islam as at is a strong and firm universal religion where God is worshipped and the Law is practised.

This is YOUR view. Bahais think and believe otherwise.

We Christians say that Islam is not from above because everything found fulfillment and perfection in Christ:

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

Why the need for a new revelation and prophet when we have the eternal Word of God, who came in flesh and saved us?

We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures. (21:107)

Read also the following verses:

And lo! it is in truth a Reminder for thee and for thy folk; and ye will be questioned. (Surah 43:44)

And thus We have inspired in thee a Lecture in Arabic, that thou mayst warn the mother-town and those around it, and mayst warn of a day of assembling whereof there is no doubt. A host will be in the Garden, and a host of them in the Flame. (Surah 42:7)

And thou was not beside the Mount when We did call; but (the knowledge of it is) a mercy from thy Lord that thou mayst warn a folk unto whom no warner came before thee, that haply they may give heed. (Surah 28:46)



As you should believe, nothing happens without the will of God or against it. God sent his messages and gave humans the choice between following them or not. Christians are to be blamed for the deviation from Christ's message, like Hebrews are to be blamed for worshipping the golden calf.

Why the need to send a message then? So that people can distinguish truth from falsehood or be guided into falsehood? As I said, you have weird ideas about God.

More to the point, SOME of the Hebrews worshipped the golden calf, but they were instantly guided back to the truth. They did not have to wait 600 years to know about their mistake. There was no time in Israel when the truth of God was utterly lost or distorted.  laugh
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« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2010, 11:01:58 AM »


LOL.  Rabbinic Judaism isn't the religion of the Ancient Hebrews, and no sect of Islam has maintained an imagined "purity" from the time of the Prophet and Companions, unless expansive wars of religion against the outside and killing each other in the inside of the Dar al-Islam count.


So you're saying Christianity, unlike Islam and Judaism, maintained its purity? Whatever you wish to say!

Quote
Really?  I knew those in Jordan, who, because they prayed according to the Maliki madhhab, the local Muslims refused to associate with them.  Pakistan has declared the Ahmadiyya non-Muslim.  Then their is the problems between the various Sufi tariqahs and the Ijmaa'i 'ulamaa'

As for central authority, there was one from the time of Muhammad to fall of the Umayyads (who imposed the Quran text as we have it on the Muslims, amongst other things). After that, the 'Abbasids ruled with an iron fist except in your neck of the woods, which became the lair of all sorts of discontents until the Murabitah and Muwahhiduun homogenized the lot into Ijmaa'i, specifically Maliki, Islam. And the caliphs and their successors exercised the authority to appoint qadis, extend patronage, commit persecusion (remember the Mihmah?). Several centuries of that, and then the Ottomans to cap it off, more than enough to impose some order.

All four madhabs, and aslo the madhabs which disappeared to due to lack of followship like that of Sufyan Al-Tawty, are accepted according the absolute consensus. It's not uncommon to find a scholar versed in more than one madhab. A grand sholar can make ijtihad and contradict his madhab, though we don't have scholars jumping from one madhab to an other, simply because, like I said, they are all accepted.

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« Reply #75 on: July 13, 2010, 11:25:03 AM »


LOL.  Rabbinic Judaism isn't the religion of the Ancient Hebrews, and no sect of Islam has maintained an imagined "purity" from the time of the Prophet and Companions, unless expansive wars of religion against the outside and killing each other in the inside of the Dar al-Islam count.


So you're saying Christianity, unlike Islam and Judaism, maintained its purity? Whatever you wish to say!

I wish to say the Truth. Which I did.

Quote
Really?  I knew those in Jordan, who, because they prayed according to the Maliki madhhab, the local Muslims refused to associate with them.  Pakistan has declared the Ahmadiyya non-Muslim.  Then their is the problems between the various Sufi tariqahs and the Ijmaa'i 'ulamaa'

As for central authority, there was one from the time of Muhammad to fall of the Umayyads (who imposed the Quran text as we have it on the Muslims, amongst other things). After that, the 'Abbasids ruled with an iron fist except in your neck of the woods, which became the lair of all sorts of discontents until the Murabitah and Muwahhiduun homogenized the lot into Ijmaa'i, specifically Maliki, Islam. And the caliphs and their successors exercised the authority to appoint qadis, extend patronage, commit persecusion (remember the Mihmah?). Several centuries of that, and then the Ottomans to cap it off, more than enough to impose some order.

All four madhabs, and aslo the madhabs which disappeared to due to lack of followship like that of Sufyan Al-Tawty, are accepted according the absolute consensus. It's not uncommon to find a scholar versed in more than one madhab. A grand sholar can make ijtihad and contradict his madhab, though we don't have scholars jumping from one madhab to an other, simply because, like I said, they are all accepted.[/quote]
Such is the modus vivendi of the theory.  It isn't consistently adhered to.  Btw, Shi'ites, like the al-Shahid al-Thani, also got ijaazah to make ijtihad in the four Ijmaa'i madhhabs.
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« Reply #76 on: July 13, 2010, 11:38:40 AM »


LOL.  Rabbinic Judaism isn't the religion of the Ancient Hebrews, and no sect of Islam has maintained an imagined "purity" from the time of the Prophet and Companions, unless expansive wars of religion against the outside and killing each other in the inside of the Dar al-Islam count.


So you're saying Christianity, unlike Islam and Judaism, maintained its purity? Whatever you wish to say!

I wish to say the Truth. Which I did.

Quote
Really?  I knew those in Jordan, who, because they prayed according to the Maliki madhhab, the local Muslims refused to associate with them.  Pakistan has declared the Ahmadiyya non-Muslim.  Then their is the problems between the various Sufi tariqahs and the Ijmaa'i 'ulamaa'

As for central authority, there was one from the time of Muhammad to fall of the Umayyads (who imposed the Quran text as we have it on the Muslims, amongst other things). After that, the 'Abbasids ruled with an iron fist except in your neck of the woods, which became the lair of all sorts of discontents until the Murabitah and Muwahhiduun homogenized the lot into Ijmaa'i, specifically Maliki, Islam. And the caliphs and their successors exercised the authority to appoint qadis, extend patronage, commit persecusion (remember the Mihmah?). Several centuries of that, and then the Ottomans to cap it off, more than enough to impose some order.

All four madhabs, and aslo the madhabs which disappeared to due to lack of followship like that of Sufyan Al-Tawty, are accepted according the absolute consensus. It's not uncommon to find a scholar versed in more than one madhab. A grand sholar can make ijtihad and contradict his madhab, though we don't have scholars jumping from one madhab to an other, simply because, like I said, they are all accepted.
Such is the modus vivendi of the theory.  It isn't consistently adhered to.  Btw, Shi'ites, like the al-Shahid al-Thani, also got ijaazah to make ijtihad in the four Ijmaa'i madhhabs.
[/quote]

Nothing for me to add. Though I'd like it if you could specify which is the misspelling you found in the picture, or if you were just mistaken.
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« Reply #77 on: July 13, 2010, 11:48:58 AM »

Nothing for me to add. Though I'd like it if you could specify which is the misspelling you found in the picture, or if you were just mistaken.

You got it:
There's no misspelling there, the text in the image is  لو تعلمون ما أعلم لضحكتم قليلا ولبكيتم كثيرا, which means If you would know know what I know you youl've laughed a little and cried a lot (personal translation), and it's part of a hadith, perhaps he has the Quran passages elsewhere. The two letters ضح in the middle of the sentence are not clear due to the skin in the knee area.
though it still doesn't look like  لضحكتم  to me. But as I said, and you agree, it's not clear.
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« Reply #78 on: July 13, 2010, 11:55:20 AM »

Nothing for me to add. Though I'd like it if you could specify which is the misspelling you found in the picture, or if you were just mistaken.

You got it:
There's no misspelling there, the text in the image is  لو تعلمون ما أعلم لضحكتم قليلا ولبكيتم كثيرا, which means If you would know know what I know you youl've laughed a little and cried a lot (personal translation), and it's part of a hadith, perhaps he has the Quran passages elsewhere. The two letters ضح in the middle of the sentence are not clear due to the skin in the knee area.
though it still doesn't look like  لضحكتم  to me. But as I said, and you agree, it's not clear.

Tamam, afandem. Smiley

edit: Do you know what's the etymology of afandem? It doesn't seem to be Turkish
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« Reply #79 on: July 13, 2010, 12:19:12 PM »

Just because some super natural event is not a fraud, doesn't make it wholesome or good. Why do people forget that there are all kinds of demonic forces out there who are always trying to divert people from correct faith in God?

And then there is the tactic of damning with faint praise such as trying to convince people that Christ was something less then fully God and a just prophet. We need to pray for people who do this as they are flirting with eternal damnation.

Oh and.... Conservative piety is often used as a cover for false religion. Look at Mormons. They lead a conservative family oriented life in cultural terms but practice a false religion. Salvation is not won by the outer appearance of faith but rather by actual faith in the One True God in Trinity. Even if we fall short in our piety and others put on a better show of it, we still win our crown by  Faith...  
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« Reply #80 on: July 13, 2010, 12:27:00 PM »

I hope the parents would send the child to have Islamic education, a countless number of people would be more than willing to pay for any fees or expenses. May he benefit the Nation and be our aid against the adversaries.
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« Reply #81 on: July 13, 2010, 01:11:40 PM »

I hope the parents would send the child to have Islamic education, a countless number of people would be more than willing to pay for any fees or expenses. May he benefit the Nation and be our aid against the adversaries.
Since the child is in Dagestan I have to hope for the opposite.  Unless of course, the aid you hope for is peace between the nations.  Then I am all for it.  But based on the history of the region, the Moslems will only allow the Christians in the region to have peace when they are under the ground.
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« Reply #82 on: July 13, 2010, 02:58:40 PM »

The followers of Mohammed only understand Christianity as it was given them by their own leaders and teachers to understand, not as it actually is. One can find corroborative, historical evidence of the witness of Orthodox Christianity, the writing of the Scriptures, and the teaching of the apostles and their successors from non-partisan studies. So, we'll ask them to do what we ask the Jews to do (produce the body). Let the followers of Mohammed produce actual evidence of their claims that there was corruption in the way they claim, or else let them worship Christ with us, for it was not a mere man who was born without seed from the Ever-Virgin Mary, but the Son of God, equal to the Father in all things, as it was revealed to us by Christ and his holy apostles. Otherwise, there can be no real conversation.
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« Reply #83 on: July 13, 2010, 03:24:05 PM »

The followers of Mohammed only understand Christianity as it was given them by their own leaders and teachers to understand, not as it actually is. One can find corroborative, historical evidence of the witness of Orthodox Christianity, the writing of the Scriptures, and the teaching of the apostles and their successors from non-partisan studies. So, we'll ask them to do what we ask the Jews to do (produce the body). Let the followers of Mohammed produce actual evidence of their claims that there was corruption in the way they claim, or else let them worship Christ with us, for it was not a mere man who was born without seed from the Ever-Virgin Mary, but the Son of God, equal to the Father in all things, as it was revealed to us by Christ and his holy apostles. Otherwise, there can be no real conversation.

The evidence is Christianity itself, a non-Biblical religion that produced deviation after deviation to the degree that there are Churches by thousands now, all of them based on doctrines that an Israelites would clench for merely hearing them. The nature of this religion allow for the satanic, hedonistic modern world to be Born out of its womb.
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« Reply #84 on: July 13, 2010, 03:27:07 PM »

Mekki, based on the flimsy evidence you provided, one can say the same of Mohammedanism.
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« Reply #85 on: July 13, 2010, 03:33:56 PM »


The evidence is Christianity itself, a non-Biblical religion that produced deviation after deviation to the degree that there are Churches by thousands now, all of them based on doctrines that an Israelites would clench for merely hearing them. The nature of this religion allow for the satanic, hedonistic modern world to be Born out of its womb.

The Jews and Christians of Mohammad's period knew well that Mohammad was the guy who fabricated a scripture and ascribed it to his imaginary deity in order to make himself the last prophet.

Mohammad distorted the Bible and deviated from its basic teachings when he claimed to get revelation from his imaginary deity. He was Satanic and hedonistic to the extent that he described Heaven as a place where believers would sleep with virgins in return for their faith and good works on earth.
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« Reply #86 on: July 13, 2010, 03:54:45 PM »

When I saw the title of this thread, I said to myself, "Ooooo, here we go again; more like 'Jesus on a piece of toast.'"  It's just the sort of thing that iconoclastic Fundamentalists go whoring after, which only proves that iconoclasm militates against human nature, and that the people who make such claims about seeing these "icons" are supremely gullible.
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« Reply #87 on: July 13, 2010, 03:56:34 PM »

Mekki, based on the flimsy evidence you provided, one can say the same of Mohammedanism.

There's nothing in the fundamentals of Islam that is unbiblical.

Islam was able to maintain its unity and purity as it spread in space and as times went on, some which can't be said about Christianity. Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practice the religion according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of the Nation's scholars.

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

If it was for Christianity, even if we were to assume that it's God's Religion, the message would completely disappear. Decadent Protestantism account for as much as half of Christians, while Orthodoxy and Catholicism have given in to the the modern secularist, humanist doctrines, all Traditionalist movements withing the two sects are looked upon in contempt by the overwhelming majority of both both clergy and laymen.

Hardly any Christian takes his religion seriously. Such basics of the religion as celibacy before marriage are regarded as a great curiosity.

It is absolutely inconceivable any Christian country will witness a Christian revival,  the concept of the "Church" as was known before is now regarded as a part of medieval history that can never be resurrected.

Indeed, alhamduillah for Islam.
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« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2010, 04:08:05 PM »

The Jews and Christians of Mohammad's period knew well that Mohammad was the guy who fabricated a scripture and ascribed it to his imaginary deity in order to make himself the last prophet.

Did you know that Jews consider Christians, unlike Muslims, to be heathens? True story.

Islamic theology wen to on to have such great influence that major Christian and Jewish theologians like Maimonides and Aquinas were greatly influenced by Muslim writers.

Quote
Mohammad distorted the Bible and deviated from its basic teachings when he claimed to get revelation from his imaginary deity. He was Satanic and hedonistic to the extent that he described Heaven as a place where believers would sleep with virgins in return for their faith and good works on earth.

Beware! You are calling hedonistic the man who never missed a prayer (as hard as it is to do so concerning Islamic canonical prayer), not only that but he spent hours upon hours in non-canonical prayer every day. The man who spent days upon days eating nothing but rough bread, the man who never had fancy clothings nor build a mansion for himself even though he could have anything he wanted as was the ruler of all Arabia.
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« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2010, 04:09:04 PM »

When I saw the title of this thread, I said to myself, "Ooooo, here we go again; more like 'Jesus on a piece of toast.'"  It's just the sort of thing that iconoclastic Fundamentalists go whoring after, which only proves that iconoclasm militates against human nature, and that the people who make such claims about seeing these "icons" are supremely gullible.

What did you think after watching it? This certainly looks nothing like Christ's face on a piece of toast.
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« Reply #90 on: July 13, 2010, 04:18:21 PM »


There's nothing in the fundamentals of Islam that is unbiblical.

Another joke of the day!  Thanks for the laugh. laugh

Mohammad, the only guy you follow and consider the last prophet, is not a biblical figure. Islam has nothing to do with the Bible. It is an invention and innovation.

The Bible says God made His covenant with Isaac and his seed. The promised Messiah came from the same lineage. Mohammad is not included into the prophetic line.


Islam was able to maintain its unity and purity as it spread in space and as times went on, some which can't be said about Christianity. Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practice the religion according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of the Nation's scholars.

So what? Islam is a false religion. Majority of the Meccans worshipped idols in the past. Should we conclude that what those many Meccans practiced was something good? Numbers hardly prove anything.

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

If it was for Christianity, even if we were to assume that it's God's Religion, the message would completely disappear.


Christ established a Church and promised to preserve His message. He said He would be with us until the end of ages. Your Islamic faith makes you declare Jesus a liar now. Stop paying lip service to Christ.
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« Reply #91 on: July 13, 2010, 04:23:51 PM »


There's nothing in the fundamentals of Islam that is unbiblical.

Another joke of the day!  Thanks for the laugh. laugh

Mohammad, the only guy you follow and consider the last prophet, is not a biblical figure. Islam has nothing to do with the Bible. It is an invention and innovation.

The Bible says God made His covenant with Isaac and his seed. The promised Messiah came from the same lineage. Mohammad is not included into the prophetic line.


Islam was able to maintain its unity and purity as it spread in space and as times went on, some which can't be said about Christianity. Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practice the religion according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of the Nation's scholars.

So what? Islam is a false religion. Majority of the Meccans worshipped idols in the past. Should we conclude that what those many Meccans practiced was something good? Numbers hardly prove anything.

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

If it was for Christianity, even if we were to assume that it's God's Religion, the message would completely disappear.


Christ established a Church and promised to preserve His message. He said He would be with us until the end of ages. Your Islamic faith makes you declare Jesus a liar now. Stop paying lip service to Christ.


Christ is indeed with us.
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« Reply #92 on: July 13, 2010, 04:25:30 PM »


Did you know that Jews consider Christians, unlike Muslims, to be heathens? True story.

So what? I consider Muslims, unlike Jews, heathens.

More, Jews agree with Christians that Mohammad was a false prophet. Do you agree if what Jews say about others is so significant for you?


Islamic theology wen to on to have such great influence that major Christian and Jewish theologians like Maimonides and Aquinas were greatly influenced by Muslim writers.

This does not make Mohammad a true prophet in the eyes of Jews and Christians.

Beware! You are calling hedonistic the man who never missed a prayer (as hard as it is to do so concerning Islamic canonical prayer), not only that but he spent hours upon hours in non-canonical prayer every day. The man who spent days upon days eating nothing but rough bread, the man who never had fancy clothings nor build a mansion for himself even though he could have anything he wanted as was the ruler of all Arabia.

You are talking of Mohammad as if he led the life of a Christian monk.  Grin

The Qur'an testifies to his hedonistic philosophy.

Mohammad changed for the worse after his first wife's death. Freedom turned him into a man who gave priority to sex, money, and fame/power.
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« Reply #93 on: July 13, 2010, 04:41:52 PM »

So what? I consider Muslims, unlike Jews, heathens.

More, Jews agree with Christians that Mohammad was a false prophet. Do you agree if what Jews say about others is so significant for you?

It's just you mentioned Jews so I thought I should remind you that you are considered heathen by the people whose book is the OT.

Quote
This does not make Mohammad a true prophet in the eyes of Jews and Christians.

It makes Islam a strongly based and well build Religion in their eyes.


You are talking of Mohammad as if he led the life of a Christian monk.  Grin

He was was piety and devotion incarnate.

Quote
Mohammad changed for the worse after his first wife's death. Freedom turned him into a man who gave priority to sex, money, and fame/power.

Have you read what I wrote? He would pray until his feet are swollen. I said he spends day with nothing but bread, he would spend other days without eating whatsoever.

He was the ruler of all Arabia and he could have anything he wanted from his riches, yet guess what he left as physical inheritance, he left a mule, some ammunition and a piece of land that he gave as gift before his death.

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« Reply #94 on: July 13, 2010, 05:25:04 PM »

Nothing for me to add. Though I'd like it if you could specify which is the misspelling you found in the picture, or if you were just mistaken.

You got it:
There's no misspelling there, the text in the image is  لو تعلمون ما أعلم لضحكتم قليلا ولبكيتم كثيرا, which means If you would know know what I know you youl've laughed a little and cried a lot (personal translation), and it's part of a hadith, perhaps he has the Quran passages elsewhere. The two letters ضح in the middle of the sentence are not clear due to the skin in the knee area.
though it still doesn't look like  لضحكتم  to me. But as I said, and you agree, it's not clear.

Tamam, afandem. Smiley

edit: Do you know what's the etymology of afandem? It doesn't seem to be Turkish

It's Greek, but via Turkish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effendi
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« Reply #95 on: July 13, 2010, 05:25:50 PM »


It's just you mentioned Jews so I thought I should remind you that you are considered heathen by the people whose book is the OT.

I did not talk about Jews alone. I said both Jews and Christians considered and still consider Mohammad a false prophet. You are the one who recurrently refers to Jews and Judaism here.


It makes Islam a strongly based and well build Religion in their eyes.

Not in my eyes. I am Christian.  Cheesy


He was was piety and devotion incarnate.

You are free to assume so. I cannot confirm what you say as I know the Qur'an.

Have you read what I wrote? He would pray until his feet are swollen. I said he spends day with nothing but bread, he would spend other days without eating whatsoever.

What does this prove? A false prophet is a false prophet even if he lives like monks.

He was the ruler of all Arabia and he could have anything he wanted from his riches, yet guess what he left as physical inheritance, he left a mule, some ammunition and a piece of land that he gave as gift before his death.

Why don't you reckon what he had when he was alive?

He had many wives, concubines, an army, many people serving him, fame, and authority. What else could he need?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #96 on: July 13, 2010, 05:39:50 PM »

The followers of Mohammed only understand Christianity as it was given them by their own leaders and teachers to understand, not as it actually is. One can find corroborative, historical evidence of the witness of Orthodox Christianity, the writing of the Scriptures, and the teaching of the apostles and their successors from non-partisan studies. So, we'll ask them to do what we ask the Jews to do (produce the body). Let the followers of Mohammed produce actual evidence of their claims that there was corruption in the way they claim, or else let them worship Christ with us, for it was not a mere man who was born without seed from the Ever-Virgin Mary, but the Son of God, equal to the Father in all things, as it was revealed to us by Christ and his holy apostles. Otherwise, there can be no real conversation.

The evidence is Christianity itself, a non-Biblical religion that produced deviation after deviation to the degree that there are Churches by thousands now, all of them based on doctrines that an Israelites would clench for merely hearing them. The nature of this religion allow for the satanic, hedonistic modern world to be Born out of its womb.
All the first Christians were Hebrews, who proclaimed it to the ends of the Earth from Jerusalem. Their writings survive.  We follow them to this day.  We have added nothing to them, nor taken anything from them.  As for churches by the thousands, thank the Protestants, who haven't been around for a millenium yet, and make up only a third of Christians today.

As for hedonism, read Abu Nuwas. Or look at the pictures in the Umayyad castles  Shocked Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #97 on: July 13, 2010, 06:39:56 PM »

The followers of Mohammed only understand Christianity as it was given them by their own leaders and teachers to understand, not as it actually is. One can find corroborative, historical evidence of the witness of Orthodox Christianity, the writing of the Scriptures, and the teaching of the apostles and their successors from non-partisan studies. So, we'll ask them to do what we ask the Jews to do (produce the body). Let the followers of Mohammed produce actual evidence of their claims that there was corruption in the way they claim, or else let them worship Christ with us, for it was not a mere man who was born without seed from the Ever-Virgin Mary, but the Son of God, equal to the Father in all things, as it was revealed to us by Christ and his holy apostles. Otherwise, there can be no real conversation.

The evidence is Christianity itself, a non-Biblical religion that produced deviation after deviation to the degree that there are Churches by thousands now, all of them based on doctrines that an Israelites would clench for merely hearing them. The nature of this religion allow for the satanic, hedonistic modern world to be Born out of its womb.

Which you feel obligated to destroy in a blood bath.... yada yada

Yawn

Like  with all doubters it's the Resurrection that is the major sticking point .But there are only a few possibilities.

1. The Romans stole the Body
2. The Jews stole the Body
3. The Apostles stole the Body

If either the Jews or the Romans had stolen the body, at some point, just Apostles  were proclaiming the Resurrection, they certainly would have said. "Nope, here he is" and dumped the Body in front of them..... thus ending Christianity' forever.

If the Apostles themselves had stolen the body, they would not have given their very lives, via extreme torture, beheading, burning, crucifixion and skinning alive for a fraud. The second the knife cuts into your skin you would confess. None of them did that. Not one. They all went to their deaths happy in the knowledge of their salvation.

On the other hand, Muhammad heard voices that dictated various prophecies and regulations to him... Okay..umm..Is that all ya got? Anyone can claim that.

Christians have something called "Corroboration"... look it up. I am glad Muhammad prayed every day. So did Joseph Smith.
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« Reply #98 on: July 13, 2010, 07:23:51 PM »

Mekki, based on the flimsy evidence you provided, one can say the same of Mohammedanism.

There's nothing in the fundamentals of Islam that is unbiblical.

Shahadah: the Bible says nothing on Muhammad, and Muhammad calls the Bible corrupt.

Hajj: to a place of no importance at all to the Bible. Contradicts the OT in refusing to go the one place of worship, and the NT in refusing the true Temple (sidenote: the histories of Mecca record that in the Ka'bah was an icon of Abraham and Jacob, and of the Theotokos and Christ.  When the Muslims conquered Mecca, Muhammad covered the icon with his body, and ordered "destroy everything else."  It remained there at least until the Muslims destroyed the Ka'bah the first time in their second fitna (civil war), around the time they built the dome of the rock (c. 690).

Salah: in a direction meaningless to the Bible, doing a ritual modeled after the Church's 7 hours of prayer but replacing the Biblical texts.

Sawm: fast based on no biblical event, but on the reception of a text intended to surplant the Bible.

Zakah: the piety of the Pharisee, rejecting the charity of the widow and her mite.

Quote
Islam was able to maintain its unity and purity as it spread in space and as times went on,

Islam couldn't maintain its purity in Muhammad's lifetime, and invented the idea of "abrogation" of scripture to excuese that, let alone the innovations of his companions, who have not been united at least form the time of his contemporary 'Uthman (656).

Quote
some which can't be said about Christianity.

We celebrate it every Sunday of Orthodoxy, that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church has not changed since the time of Christ's Ascenion, and will not change till His return.


Quote
Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practice the religion according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of the Nation's scholars.

That number has ebbed and flowed, and if it meant anything, why are you Maliki, when only 15% of Muslims are?

Quote
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

You couldn't, despite the Umayyads buring as many varients as they could get their hands on, guard the Quran from corruption: your qira'at Warsh in Morrocco isn't the same as that of Hafs, used in Cairo (and most of the Muslim world).

Quote
If it was for Christianity, even if we were to assume that it's God's Religion, the message would completely disappear.


It's has over a third of mankind for over a century.  According to al-Jaziirah, every year 6 million Muslims come for baptism.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php

Quote
Decadent Protestantism account for as much as half of Christians,

Protestants have never accouted for half of Christians, and it doesn't look like, the way a lot are coming to the Orthodox and the Vatican, they ever will. And most are not decadent, by any sane sense of the word.

Quote
while Orthodoxy and Catholicism have given in to the the modern secularist, humanist doctrines, all Traditionalist movements withing the two sects are looked upon in contempt by the overwhelming majority of both both clergy and laymen.

LOL. Ever hear, for instance, Met. Hilarion of Vienna? He's being preened for next Patriarch of the Russian Church, the largest in Orthodoxy.

http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2010/05/a-holy-alliance-between-rome-and-moscow-is-born/
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2008/02/bishop-hilarion-alfeyev-liberal-christianity-will-not-survive-for-a-long-time/

As for the Vatican, did you hear cardinal Ratzinger's speech before his election?


Quote
Hardly any Christian takes his religion seriously. Such basics of the religion as celibacy before marriage are regarded as a great curiosity.

That's a rather broad brush, and a dangerous one: I've lived in the Muslim world, and know a lot of Morrocans in fact. I'll leave it at that.

Quote
It is absolutely inconceivable any Christian country will witness a Christian revival,

LOL. Your wishful thinking is getting the better of you. Seen what is going on in Russia? Ukraine? Did you see Pope JP II's funeral?


Or [St.] Pavle of Serbia?

Holy Patriarch Pavle, pray for us!

See that Church? It is built on the spot where your crown, the Turks, burned the relics of Pat. Pavle's predecessor, St.Sava.  Sinan Pasha, who dared the sacrilege, was defeated thereafter at Călugăreni, and died within the year, and the beginning of the decline of the Ottomans began.

Quote
the concept of the "Church" as was known before is now regarded as a part of medieval history that can never be resurrected.

Stalin asked how many divisions the pope had, and Khrushchev said he would put the last Russian Orthodox priest on TV to show the end of superstition.



Things didn't work out to plan.
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« Reply #99 on: July 13, 2010, 07:26:18 PM »


There's nothing in the fundamentals of Islam that is unbiblical.

Another joke of the day!  Thanks for the laugh. laugh

Mohammad, the only guy you follow and consider the last prophet, is not a biblical figure. Islam has nothing to do with the Bible. It is an invention and innovation.

The Bible says God made His covenant with Isaac and his seed. The promised Messiah came from the same lineage. Mohammad is not included into the prophetic line.


Islam was able to maintain its unity and purity as it spread in space and as times went on, some which can't be said about Christianity. Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practice the religion according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of the Nation's scholars.

So what? Islam is a false religion. Majority of the Meccans worshipped idols in the past. Should we conclude that what those many Meccans practiced was something good? Numbers hardly prove anything.

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

If it was for Christianity, even if we were to assume that it's God's Religion, the message would completely disappear.


Christ established a Church and promised to preserve His message. He said He would be with us until the end of ages. Your Islamic faith makes you declare Jesus a liar now. Stop paying lip service to Christ.


Christ is indeed with us.
So you confess Christ as God in the flesh. Matthew 1:23.
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« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2010, 11:55:00 PM »

LOL. Your wishful thinking is getting the better of you. Seen what is going on in Russia? Ukraine? Did you see Pope JP II's funeral?

Not only in Russia and Ukraine but all of the Orthodox countries are seeing a renewal of Christian Faith after years of oppression under the atheist Soviet regime. I spoke with someone who recently returned from Romania and she was amazed by the piety of the people where she was. She saw many people go to the church every morning and go back in the afternoon and evening to pray. She also said how she could hardly fit into the church for the feast of the Apostles because of the number of people. I've heard similar accounts from Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, etc.

Mekki, you have some strong views on the piety of Christians which you have never experienced yourself so how can you understand?

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« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2010, 10:54:55 AM »

Mekki, based on the flimsy evidence you provided, one can say the same of Mohammedanism.

There's nothing in the fundamentals of Islam that is unbiblical.

Shahadah: the Bible says nothing on Muhammad, and Muhammad calls the Bible corrupt.

Hajj: to a place of no importance at all to the Bible. Contradicts the OT in refusing to go the one place of worship, and the NT in refusing the true Temple (sidenote: the histories of Mecca record that in the Ka'bah was an icon of Abraham and Jacob, and of the Theotokos and Christ.  When the Muslims conquered Mecca, Muhammad covered the icon with his body, and ordered "destroy everything else."  It remained there at least until the Muslims destroyed the Ka'bah the first time in their second fitna (civil war), around the time they built the dome of the rock (c. 690).

Salah: in a direction meaningless to the Bible, doing a ritual modeled after the Church's 7 hours of prayer but replacing the Biblical texts.

Sawm: fast based on no biblical event, but on the reception of a text intended to surplant the Bible.

Zakah: the piety of the Pharisee, rejecting the charity of the widow and her mite.

Quote
Islam was able to maintain its unity and purity as it spread in space and as times went on,

Islam couldn't maintain its purity in Muhammad's lifetime, and invented the idea of "abrogation" of scripture to excuese that, let alone the innovations of his companions, who have not been united at least form the time of his contemporary 'Uthman (656).

Quote
some which can't be said about Christianity.

We celebrate it every Sunday of Orthodoxy, that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church has not changed since the time of Christ's Ascenion, and will not change till His return.


Quote
Alhamdulillah, 90% of Muslims practice the religion according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of the Nation's scholars.

That number has ebbed and flowed, and if it meant anything, why are you Maliki, when only 15% of Muslims are?

Quote
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

You couldn't, despite the Umayyads buring as many varients as they could get their hands on, guard the Quran from corruption: your qira'at Warsh in Morrocco isn't the same as that of Hafs, used in Cairo (and most of the Muslim world).

Quote
If it was for Christianity, even if we were to assume that it's God's Religion, the message would completely disappear.


It's has over a third of mankind for over a century.  According to al-Jaziirah, every year 6 million Muslims come for baptism.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php

Quote
Decadent Protestantism account for as much as half of Christians,

Protestants have never accouted for half of Christians, and it doesn't look like, the way a lot are coming to the Orthodox and the Vatican, they ever will. And most are not decadent, by any sane sense of the word.

Quote
while Orthodoxy and Catholicism have given in to the the modern secularist, humanist doctrines, all Traditionalist movements withing the two sects are looked upon in contempt by the overwhelming majority of both both clergy and laymen.

LOL. Ever hear, for instance, Met. Hilarion of Vienna? He's being preened for next Patriarch of the Russian Church, the largest in Orthodoxy.

http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2010/05/a-holy-alliance-between-rome-and-moscow-is-born/
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2008/02/bishop-hilarion-alfeyev-liberal-christianity-will-not-survive-for-a-long-time/

As for the Vatican, did you hear cardinal Ratzinger's speech before his election?


Quote
Hardly any Christian takes his religion seriously. Such basics of the religion as celibacy before marriage are regarded as a great curiosity.

That's a rather broad brush, and a dangerous one: I've lived in the Muslim world, and know a lot of Morrocans in fact. I'll leave it at that.

Quote
It is absolutely inconceivable any Christian country will witness a Christian revival,

LOL. Your wishful thinking is getting the better of you. Seen what is going on in Russia? Ukraine? Did you see Pope JP II's funeral?


Or [St.] Pavle of Serbia?

Holy Patriarch Pavle, pray for us!

See that Church? It is built on the spot where your crown, the Turks, burned the relics of Pat. Pavle's predecessor, St.Sava.  Sinan Pasha, who dared the sacrilege, was defeated thereafter at Călugăreni, and died within the year, and the beginning of the decline of the Ottomans began.

Quote
the concept of the "Church" as was known before is now regarded as a part of medieval history that can never be resurrected.

Stalin asked how many divisions the pope had, and Khrushchev said he would put the last Russian Orthodox priest on TV to show the end of superstition.



Things didn't work out to plan.



Tip of the month: Don't mess with Isa.
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« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2010, 01:16:17 PM »

Shahadah: the Bible says nothing on Muhammad, and Muhammad calls the Bible corrupt.

The shahada is testifying that none and nothing is worthy of worship and submission but God, and that Mohammed's message calls for just that in the correct manner.

Quote
Hajj: to a place of no importance at all to the Bible. Contradicts the OT in refusing to go the one place of worship, and the NT in refusing the true Temple (sidenote: the histories of Mecca record that in the Ka'bah was an icon of Abraham and Jacob, and of the Theotokos and Christ.  When the Muslims conquered Mecca, Muhammad covered the icon with his body, and ordered "destroy everything else."  It remained there at least until the Muslims destroyed the Ka'bah the first time in their second fitna (civil war), around the time they built the dome of the rock (c. 690).

You and your revisionist history! There's nothing about making pilgrimage to Mecca that goes against the Religion of the Prophets. The Religion of one for all Prophets and Nations, but Laws and obligation and permissions are different.  Even hinting that this might not be true from any aspect will be destroying the very foundation of Christianity.

Quote
Salah: in a direction meaningless to the Bible, doing a ritual modeled after the Church's 7 hours of prayer but replacing the Biblical texts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg

Quote
Sawm: fast based on no biblical event, but on the reception of a text intended to surplant the Bible.

Until today, Jews fast the exact same way Muslims do, though in different days.

Quote
Zakah: the piety of the Pharisee, rejecting the charity of the widow and her mite.

Muslims are encouraged to live only by the necessary, everything else should be alms in all its forms. Following the Quranic and Prophetic order, Muslims take a lot of care in not showing their act of charity.

If you read the Ihya then you must remember how Ghazali narrated different stories on how Muslims invented various methods to avoid being seen giving alms, even by those receiving it. Some would put it in the the road of needy man, or in his clothes before wearing them etc.

Quote
Islam couldn't maintain its purity in Muhammad's lifetime, and invented the idea of "abrogation" of scripture to excuese that, let alone the innovations of his companions, who have not been united at least form the time of his contemporary 'Uthman (656).

90% alhamdulillah, 90%.

Quote
We celebrate it every Sunday of Orthodoxy, that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church has not changed since the time of Christ's Ascenion, and will not change till His return.

Except that every Church in the world claims to be the catholic apostolic church. Even if we were to consider all Orthodox Churches to be one Church, then Orthodoxy doesn't account for more than a quarter of total Christians.

By its very nature, Christianity contained withing itself the seed of deviation. Protestantism was only a natural and logical conclusion. It is for this reason that Christian could not even stand against the forces of modernity, neither on the intellectual nor on the temporal domains. The only 'contemporary' anti-modern, Christian movement one can remember (which is Orthodox btw) is the Romanian Iron Guard, but that was far, far from the spirit of medieval Christian, it was beyond tainted by modern doctrines such as nationalism.

Quote
That number has ebbed and flowed, and if it meant anything, why are you Maliki, when only 15% of Muslims are?

The number is correct alhamdulillah. And, like I said, all madhabs are accepted, and I'm Maliki because I was born and I live in a Maliki country. A madhab is not something you chose, unless you want to study one then you can choose whichever you want.

Quote
Quote
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

You couldn't, despite the Umayyads buring as many varients as they could get their hands on, guard the Quran from corruption: your qira'at Warsh in Morrocco isn't the same as that of Hafs, used in Cairo (and most of the Muslim world).

The message was guarded alhamdulillah (by the way, the verse is to referring just for the Quran, but to the Religion as a whole).

The qira'at are like madhabs, all of the common one are accepted. Most of the mus'hafs circulating here in Morocco are printed either in SA or in Lebanon but absolutely no one has any problem with that.

Quote
It's has over a third of mankind for over a century.  According to al-Jazeera, every year 6 million Muslims come for baptism.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php

Please! That was not according to al-Jazeera, it was according to a guy hosted in a show on the channel and he presented no evidence for what he said. May I ask you where are these conversion taking place? Is it in North Africa, is it in Mali, Senegal, Nigeria? Because the percentage of Muslims is either stable or increasing in all of African countries.

That gentleman was either mistaken, may God guard us from error, or he meant something else, like that those are the numbers of people who converted to Christianity but could've been converted to Islam, which is what I understood the first time I saw the video.

Quote
Protestants have never accouted for half of Christians, and it doesn't look like, the way a lot are coming to the Orthodox and the Vatican, they ever will. And most are not decadent, by any sane sense of the word.

Of course there are some sincere individuals in all sects, but Protestantism was born out of the same circumstances and turbulences in Europe that gave birth to the "Enlightenment", a movement that is not only decadent but it presents itself as the protagonist of everything that is normal, traditional and positive in any significant sense of the word.


Quote
LOL. Your wishful thinking is getting the better of you. Seen what is going on in Russia? Ukraine? Did you see Pope JP II's funeral?


Or [St.] Pavle of Serbia?

Holy Patriarch Pavle, pray for us!

The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.
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« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2010, 01:18:01 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2010, 01:20:35 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes

Well, you should be aware of it and you sould object. How about them Traditionalist movements?
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« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2010, 01:23:58 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes

Well, you should be aware of it and you sould object. How about them Traditionalist movements?
I am a Traditionalist. Smiley
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« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2010, 01:28:46 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes

Well, you should be aware of it and you sould object. How about them Traditionalist movements?
I am a Traditionalist. Smiley

I don't know if by "Traditionalist" you want to say that the Roman Catholic Chruch is Traditionalist in its current from, because otherwise I can't see why you would object to my statement above.
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« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2010, 01:33:45 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes

Well, you should be aware of it and you sould object. How about them Traditionalist movements?
I am a Traditionalist. Smiley

I don't know if by "Traditionalist" you want to say that the Roman Catholic Chruch is Traditionalist in its current from, because otherwise I can't see why you would object to my statement above.

Regardless of how some Catholics and some clergy in the world behave, the faith is intact and our Pontiff is a traditional Catholic himself.
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« Reply #108 on: July 14, 2010, 02:57:17 PM »

Shahadah: the Bible says nothing on Muhammad, and Muhammad calls the Bible corrupt.

The shahada is testifying that none and nothing is worthy of worship and submission but God, and that Mohammed's message calls for just that in the correct manner.

He blasphemes God by refusal to worship the Son and submit to the Church He founded, as called for in the Bible.


Quote
Quote
Hajj: to a place of no importance at all to the Bible. Contradicts the OT in refusing to go the one place of worship, and the NT in refusing the true Temple (sidenote: the histories of Mecca record that in the Ka'bah was an icon of Abraham and Jacob, and of the Theotokos and Christ.  When the Muslims conquered Mecca, Muhammad covered the icon with his body, and ordered "destroy everything else."  It remained there at least until the Muslims destroyed the Ka'bah the first time in their second fitna (civil war), around the time they built the dome of the rock (c. 690).

You and your revisionist history! There's nothing about making pilgrimage to Mecca that goes against the Religion of the Prophets. The Religion of one for all Prophets and Nations, but Laws and obligation and permissions are different.  Even hinting that this might not be true from any aspect will be destroying the very foundation of Christianity.

Christianity wasn't founded on running around an empty box, and kissing a rock. Even Umar is recorded as saying to the idolatrous holdover "if I didn't see the "Apostle of God" (i.e. Muhammad) kiss you, I'd destroy you as an idol."

Quote
Quote
Salah: in a direction meaningless to the Bible, doing a ritual modeled after the Church's 7 hours of prayer but replacing the Biblical texts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg
[/quote]

Jews do not kneel in prayer. Haven't for quite some time. Their main prayer is called amidah i.e. "standing."

Quote
Quote
Sawm: fast based on no biblical event, but on the reception of a text intended to surplant the Bible.

Until today, Jews fast the exact same way Muslims do, though in different days.

IIRC it was a taunt of the Meccans that Muhammad didn't know how to wipe his posterior unless the Jews told him how. So let your masters circumcize you and be happy. No Jew fasts for the alleged coming of the Quran (the reason for Ramadan's fast). Nor do they have a fasting season.

Quote
Quote
Zakah: the piety of the Pharisee, rejecting the charity of the widow and her mite.

Muslims are encouraged to live only by the necessary, everything else should be alms in all its forms. Following the Quranic and Prophetic order, Muslims take a lot of care in not showing their act of charity.

Yeah, Saudi Arabis is full of "living only by necessity," especially among the royal family, oops, I mean the family of the Servant of the Two Sanctuaries.

Quote
If you read the Ihya then you must remember how Ghazali narrated different stories on how Muslims invented various methods to avoid being seen giving alms, even by those receiving it. Some would put it in the the road of needy man, or in his clothes before wearing them etc.

yes, Sufi literature is full of stories borrowed from Christian hagiography (Sufi "woolen" refers to the wool cloaks which they adopted from the Christian monks in wearing).

I understand the grandios Hasan II Mosque was built with such "charity" (with a little extortion from the late Sultan).

Quote
Quote
Islam couldn't maintain its purity in Muhammad's lifetime, and invented the idea of "abrogation" of scripture to excuese that, let alone the innovations of his companions, who have not been united at least form the time of his contemporary 'Uthman (656).

90% alhamdulillah, 90%.

Yes, 90% reject the central authority of the Dar al-Islam, like the apostates did in the Riddah wars.  And 100% subscribe to the writing of the Quran by abrogation.

Quote
Quote
We celebrate it every Sunday of Orthodoxy, that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church has not changed since the time of Christ's Ascenion, and will not change till His return.

Except that every Church in the world claims to be the catholic apostolic church. Even if we were to consider all Orthodox Churches to be one Church, then Orthodoxy doesn't account for more than a quarter of total Christians.

And the Muslims aren't even a quarter of mankind and the Malikis aren't even a quarter of all Muslims, yet you are both Maliki and Musilm. Btw, the Sunni/Ijmaa'i percentage is slipping, with the increase of Shi'ites.

I never believed Truth was up for a vote.  God and one makes a majority.

Quote
By its very nature, Christianity contained withing itself the seed of deviation. Protestantism was only a natural and logical conclusion. It is for this reason that Christian could not even stand against the forces of modernity, neither on the intellectual nor on the temporal domains. The only 'contemporary' anti-modern, Christian movement one can remember (which is Orthodox btw) is the Romanian Iron Guard, but that was far, far from the spirit of medieval Christian, it was beyond tainted by modern doctrines such as nationalism.

Mix this mass of conjecture with at least SOME facts, and I'll consider answering.

Quote
Quote
That number has ebbed and flowed, and if it meant anything, why are you Maliki, when only 15% of Muslims are?

The number is correct alhamdulillah. And, like I said, all madhabs are accepted, and I'm Maliki because I was born and I live in a Maliki country. A madhab is not something you chose, unless you want to study one then you can choose whichever you want.

Accepted by whom?  As I stated, Malikis aren't accepted in Jordan, and since I've seen similar rejection here, then I guess not in the US either.

Why don't you accept the madhhab of Ibn Malik's teacher, Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, and become Isma'ili or Twelver?

So you are Maliki because of where you are born. If you were born across the border in the Mzab, I guess you would be Khariji. Or in China, your madhhab would be to kow tow to chairman Mao.  How inspiring.

Quote
Quote
Quote
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).  (Quran 15:9)

You couldn't, despite the Umayyads buring as many varients as they could get their hands on, guard the Quran from corruption: your qira'at Warsh in Morrocco isn't the same as that of Hafs, used in Cairo (and most of the Muslim world).

The message was guarded alhamdulillah (by the way, the verse is to referring just for the Quran, but to the Religion as a whole).


Neither of which have been preserved.

Quote
The qira'at are like madhabs, all of the common one are accepted. Most of the mus'hafs circulating here in Morocco are printed either in SA or in Lebanon but absolutely no one has any problem with that.

Few are aware. When I showed a Morroccan my Hafs, and compared it to their Warsh, they were quite confused.

Quote
Quote
It's has over a third of mankind for over a century.  According to al-Jazeera, every year 6 million Muslims come for baptism.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php

Please! That was not according to al-Jazeera, it was according to a guy hosted in a show on the channel and he presented no evidence for what he said.


and went into some detail, including his personal experience in the field.  I've seen data saying the same elsewhere, including by Muslims for Muslims in the Muslim world.

Quote
May I ask you where are these conversion taking place? Is it in North Africa, is it in Mali, Senegal, Nigeria? Because the percentage of Muslims is either stable or increasing in all of African countries.

Nigeria now has a Christian president, and Christianity has penetrated the Muslim Hausa big time.  I was a supporter of the conservative Arinze in the last papal conclave. I still like him, and what he has to say. And say he does, all over the world.

Africa had 9 million Christians in 1900. In 2000 it had over 380 milliion, expected on present trends to reach 633 million (mostly traditional, btw) Christians in 2025.

And conversions happen everywhere: every Copt I know in Egypt knows at least one ex-Muslim who had been baptized. Offset, of course, by the persecusions.

Quote
That gentleman was either mistaken, may God guard us from error, or he meant something else, like that those are the numbers of people who converted to Christianity but could've been converted to Islam, which is what I understood the first time I saw the video.

if that is what he meant, still many Muslims come for baptism.  A famous case is the Father of Pakistan, Jinnah.  None of his grandchildren can come to Pakistan: they are Christians (one did revert to his grandfather's (not Jinnah) Zoroastrian faith).  All the Indonesian Orthodox I know of have converted from Islam.  In Albania, a number of the bishops are converts from Islam.  As for Africa, the Holy Synod of Alexandria has bishops all over the continent, and converts include Muslims.

Quote
The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.
Jaruzelski found out otherwise.

The PRI in Mexico found out otherwise.

Castro is finding out otherwise.

I'd wise up.
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« Reply #109 on: July 14, 2010, 02:59:24 PM »



The Catholic Church was annihilated during the few last centuries in the temporal realm, it was reduced to a big irrelevant and powerless body. Any doctrinal remnants that survived from its times of glory were destroyed after the Second Vatican Council.

And God knows best.

Really? I was unaaware of this. Hmmmmmmmm  Roll Eyes

Well, you should be aware of it and you sould object. How about them Traditionalist movements?
You mean those that under their tenure the Vatican's flock has increased to almost double since they took the reins with JP II?  What about them?
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« Reply #110 on: July 14, 2010, 03:45:19 PM »

He blasphemes God by refusal to worship the Son and submit to the Church He founded, as called for in the Bible.

You ought to consider that it's Christians who blaspheme God with their doctrines, not Jews and Muslims for rejecting them.

Quote
Christianity wasn't founded on running around an empty box, and kissing a rock. Even Umar is recorded as saying to the idolatrous holdover "if I didn't see the "Apostle of God" (i.e. Muhammad) kiss you, I'd destroy you as an idol."

Well, Jew pray facing a while and insert prayers between its cracks and you venerate pictures. There's always things that can be considered idolatrous if not observed more carefully.

Quote
Jews do not kneel in prayer. Haven't for quite some time. Their main prayer is called amidah i.e. "standing."

And, alhmadulillah, we have revived and sustained the the Tradition of the Prophets.

Quote
IIRC it was a taunt of the Meccans that Muhammad didn't know how to wipe his posterior unless the Jews told him how. So let your masters circumcize you and be happy. No Jew fasts for the alleged coming of the Quran (the reason for Ramadan's fast). Nor do they have a fasting season.

Is that even a Christian thing to say? Although Laws are l*not the same for each Nation, they are very similar. Something for Christians to contemplate on, how far removed they are from the way of the Prophets.

Quote
Yeah, Saudi Arabis is full of "living only by necessity," especially among the royal family, oops, I mean the family of the Servant of the Two Sanctuaries.

No, they are not full of it. May their Creator guide them and guide us, amin.

Quote
yes, Sufi literature is full of stories borrowed from Christian hagiography (Sufi "woolen" refers to the wool cloaks which they adopted from the Christian monks in wearing).

So Imam Ghazali quoted stories about Christians but changed the names to those of the Prophets' companions and the Early Muslims? Quite a big claim you're making there!

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I understand the grandios Hasan II Mosque was built with such "charity" (with a little extortion from the late Sultan).

No it was not, but the grand mosque in our neighborhood was (which is a very beautiful one), it was build entirely from a woman's pocket. Can't even start imagining how it costed. A new big mosque that was build a year or two ago was also funded by charity. Just from the top of my head.

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Yes, 90% reject the central authority of the Dar al-Islam, like the apostates did in the Riddah wars.  And 100% subscribe to the writing of the Quran by abrogation.

What you're talking about there, dear kind brother, I don't even know.

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And the Muslims aren't even a quarter of mankind and the Malikis aren't even a quarter of all Muslims, yet you are both Maliki and Musilm. Btw, the Sunni/Ijmaa'i percentage is slipping, with the increase of Shi'ites.

I never believed Truth was up for a vote.  God and one makes a majority.

No, it's not, but it's such a great sign when a religion is fragmented to thousand pieces and when an other one maintains its integrity.

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Mix this mass of conjecture with at least SOME facts, and I'll consider answering.

In order to speak about a subject, you must have an integral knowledge about it, not factual knowledge. Like above, the state of Christianity and Islam today, on the intellectual and temporal fields is also a strong sign.

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Accepted by whom?  As I stated, Malikis aren't accepted in Jordan, and since I've seen similar rejection here, then I guess not in the US either.

Why don't you accept the madhhab of Ibn Malik's teacher, Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, and become Isma'ili or Twelver?

If what you're saying is true than those actions are by no means done by knowledgeable people. May God protect us from ignorance.

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So you are Maliki because of where you are born. If you were born across the border in the Mzab, I guess you would be Khariji. Or in China, your madhhab would be to kow tow to chairman Mao.  How inspiring.

I was talking about madhabs of the followers of the Sunna and the consensus, they are all valid, so one can't choose a madhab, you just follow whichever you find most convenient, especially for those living outside of Muslims countries. As for those who live in Muslim countries, following a madhab other than the predominant one in you country indirectly means that you thought it is invalid which is something unacceptable.

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Neither of which have been preserved.

You are mistaken, alhamdulillah.

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Few are aware. When I showed a Morroccan my Hafs, and compared it to their Warsh, they were quite confused.

Of course they wouldn't be aware, why should they? They are all valid readings, alhamdulillah.

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and went into some detail, including his personal experience in the field.  I've seen data saying the same elsewhere, including by Muslims for Muslims in the Muslim world.

Care to share this obscure data?

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Nigeria now has a Christian president, and Christianity has penetrated the Muslim Hausa big time.  I was a supporter of the conservative Arinze in the last papal conclave. I still like him, and what he has to say. And say he does, all over the world.

Africa had 9 million Christians in 1900. In 2000 it had over 380 million, expected on present trends to reach 633 million (mostly traditional, btw) Christians in 2025.

Now that you reminded me, I'm sure what that guy did is taking the current number of Christian in the continent and dividing it on the number of years that missionary work really started which is about 100 years a go. In fact, wikipedia says there 450 million Christians in the continent, if you divide it by 100, you get 4.5 million people per year, with the number he used it gave hum little less than 6 million.

Lo! The mystery is solved.

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And conversions happen everywhere: every Copt I know in Egypt knows at least one ex-Muslim who had been baptized. Offset, of course, by the persecusions.

Millions of them!

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Jaruzelski found out otherwise.

The PRI in Mexico found out otherwise.

Castro is finding out otherwise.

I'd wise up.

The attendence rate at those funerals is as significant as the  attendence rate for any other pop icon's funeral. Christianity was much, much, much stronger during the 'midieval' tims when popes had nothing like these funerals.

And are you really using Castro as an example of a Christian? O Christ, where art thou? Come see what happened to thine legacy!
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« Reply #111 on: July 14, 2010, 03:49:43 PM »


Mekki....you be careful where and how you invoke Christ!  Watch out for your very soul is at stake!

How dare you call upon Him, when you don't even believe in Him.

Shameful!



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« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2010, 03:56:49 PM »


Mekki....you be careful where and how you invoke Christ!  Watch out for your very soul is at stake!

How dare you call upon Him, when you don't even believe in Him.

Shameful!


Perhaps we should issue a fatwa...

...oh wait, we don't do such things.  Wink
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« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2010, 04:05:34 PM »


Mekki....you be careful where and how you invoke Christ!  Watch out for your very soul is at stake!

How dare you call upon Him, when you don't even believe in Him.

Shameful!

Oh I believe in Christ, yes indeed I do. And my calling for him is not in prayer but in mourning for what happened to his nation is heart braking.




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« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2010, 04:09:43 PM »

Perhaps we should issue a fatwa...

...oh wait, we don't do such things.  Wink

You should, but you don't because you're living in this world. May the All-Seeing keep us away from blindness.
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« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2010, 04:20:49 PM »


You ought to consider that it's Christians who blaspheme God with their doctrines, not Jews and Muslims for rejecting them.

Muslims blaspheme when they deny Christ's true personality and turn Him into an ordinary prophet/slave of Islam so that they can make Mohammad the final messenger.

Well, Jew pray facing a while and insert prayers between its cracks and you venerate pictures. There's always things that can be considered idolatrous if not observed more carefully.

Christians are not obliged to venerate pictures while worshipping, but your Allah compels you in his Qur'an to face the Cube while worshipping. This is the difference.


And, alhmadulillah, we have revived and sustained the the Tradition of the Prophets.

Fallacy of red herring.  Roll Eyes

Is that even a Christian thing to say? Although Laws are l*not the same for each Nation, they are very similar. Something for Christians to contemplate on, how far removed they are from the way of the Prophets.

Could you please list the differences between the Law of Jews and that of Christians according to your Qur'an?  Roll Eyes

No, it's not, but it's such a great sign when a religion is fragmented to thousand pieces and when an other one maintains its integrity.

Yet the division of humanity into different religions is in line with your Allah's plan. He keeps bragging about the variations, saying that it is a crucial part of his test.  laugh

In order to speak about a subject, you must have an integral knowledge about it, not factual knowledge. Like above, the state of Christianity and Islam today, on the intellectual and temporal fields is also a strong sign.

Islam's state today is an optical illusion. It is a castle of sand destined to be destroyed on the Day of Judgment.

You are mistaken, alhamdulillah.

You are mistaken. You are also a blind believer because you reject the weak points and problems of Islamic history with regard to the preservation of the Qur'an. The book you have today and read as Allah's scripture was formed after Mohammad and without his authorization.


And are you really using Castro as an example of a Christian? O Christ, where art thou? Come see what happened to thine legacy!

It is an ironic example.
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« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2010, 04:40:24 PM »

Muslims blaspheme when they deny Christ's true personality and turn Him into an ordinary prophet/slave of Islam so that they can make Mohammad the final messenger.

I must give this one to you, Muslims do indeed blaspheme when they call for the Almighty to be worshiped properly as the Prophets worshiped him before you and before us, we blaspheme the devil and honour God.

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Christians are not obliged to venerate pictures while worshipping, but your Allah compels you in his Qur'an to face the Cube while worshipping. This is the difference.

What's wrong with having a physical direction in prayer? You pray towards the East, Jew pray toward Jerusalem. Again and again, you show that, if it's true converted, that you have knowledge neither about your current religion nor about God's Religion.

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Fallacy of red herring.  Roll Eyes

There's no red herring, this is the very subject we're discussing.

Could you please list the differences between the Law of Jews and that of Christians according to your Qur'an?  Roll Eyes

The holiest of books does not dwell on the subject, but you seem to have rejected just every law and tradition, what you preserved you have disfigured beyond recognition.

Yet the division of humanity into different religions is in line with your Allah's plan. He keeps bragging about the variations, saying that it is a crucial part of his test.  laugh

God created man with an intellect and gave him the choice between good and evil, between worshipping Him Almighty and submitting to Him thus embracing Islam, the Religion of the Prophets and their faithful followers, or to worship and submit to what's beneath Him.

Islam's state today is an optical illusion. It is a castle of sand destined to be destroyed on the Day of Judgment.

Conclusions are made based on observation and signs, it is up to you to follow those signs or to reject them in pride.

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You are mistaken. You are also a blind believer because you reject the weak points and problems of Islamic history with regard to the preservation of the Qur'an. The book you have today and read as Allah's scripture was formed after Mohammad and without his authorization.

Alhamdulillah, before the Quran was written down it was recorded, in his entirity, in the hearts of God's men.
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« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2010, 04:53:57 PM »

He blasphemes God by refusal to worship the Son and submit to the Church He founded, as called for in the Bible.

You ought to consider that it's Christians who blaspheme God with their doctrines, not Jews and Muslims for rejecting them.

You'll have to be more specific. What non-Orthodox are you speaking of (as of course, the Orthodox have no such dogmas.  The behavior of individual Orthodox are a different matter.

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Christianity wasn't founded on running around an empty box, and kissing a rock. Even Umar is recorded as saying to the idolatrous holdover "if I didn't see the "Apostle of God" (i.e. Muhammad) kiss you, I'd destroy you as an idol."

Well, Jew pray facing a while and insert prayers between its cracks and you venerate pictures. There's always things that can be considered idolatrous if not observed more carefully.

The Jew comes to the site of their temple, and we venerate the images of the members of the True Temple.  What is your reason for kissing a lump of iron rock?

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Jews do not kneel in prayer. Haven't for quite some time. Their main prayer is called amidah i.e. "standing."

And, alhmadulillah, we have revived and sustained the the Tradition of the Prophets.

Revived nothing. If you saw the Orthodox praying the Hours, you'd see where you got it.

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IIRC it was a taunt of the Meccans that Muhammad didn't know how to wipe his posterior unless the Jews told him how. So let your masters circumcize you and be happy. No Jew fasts for the alleged coming of the Quran (the reason for Ramadan's fast). Nor do they have a fasting season.

Is that even a Christian thing to say?


I'm citing Muslims sources.

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Although Laws are l*not the same for each Nation, they are very similar. Something for Christians to contemplate on, how far removed they are from the way of the Prophets.

Your Ramadan fast is modeled after the Orthodox fast of Great Lent.

Quote
Quote
yes, Sufi literature is full of stories borrowed from Christian hagiography (Sufi "woolen" refers to the wool cloaks which they adopted from the Christian monks in wearing).

So Imam Ghazali quoted stories about Christians but changed the names to those of the Prophets' companions and the Early Muslims? Quite a big claim you're making there!

Not a problem: if you look at the very early collections (1st century A.H.) and see their transformation over time, the process of Islamitization is clear.

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Quote
Yes, 90% reject the central authority of the Dar al-Islam, like the apostates did in the Riddah wars.  And 100% subscribe to the writing of the Quran by abrogation.

What you're talking about there, dear kind brother, I don't even know.

Your lack of an imam/caliph, and your dogma of naskh.

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And the Muslims aren't even a quarter of mankind and the Malikis aren't even a quarter of all Muslims, yet you are both Maliki and Musilm. Btw, the Sunni/Ijmaa'i percentage is slipping, with the increase of Shi'ites.

I never believed Truth was up for a vote.  God and one makes a majority.

No, it's not, but it's such a great sign when a religion is fragmented to thousand pieces and when an other one maintains its integrity.[/quote]

By your own tradition, you religion was born broken into 72 sects, and has hundreds, if not thousands more, over its history. Two communions (the Vatican and the Orthodox) have around 3/4s of Christianity, and have throughout its history.

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Quote
Mix this mass of conjecture with at least SOME facts, and I'll consider answering.

In order to speak about a subject, you must have an integral knowledge about it, not factual knowledge. Like above, the state of Christianity and Islam today, on the intellectual and temporal fields is also a strong sign.

Spew less, say more.

Quote
Quote
Accepted by whom?  As I stated, Malikis aren't accepted in Jordan, and since I've seen similar rejection here, then I guess not in the US either.

Why don't you accept the madhhab of Ibn Malik's teacher, Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, and become Isma'ili or Twelver?

If what you're saying is true than those actions are by no means done by knowledgeable people. May God protect us from ignorance.

Do you have an ijaazah to issue that fatwah?

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Quote
So you are Maliki because of where you are born. If you were born across the border in the Mzab, I guess you would be Khariji. Or in China, your madhhab would be to kow tow to chairman Mao.  How inspiring.

I was talking about madhabs of the followers of the Sunna and the consensus, they are all valid, so one can't choose a madhab, you just follow whichever you find most convenient, especially for those living outside of Muslims countries. As for those who live in Muslim countries, following a madhab other than the predominant one in you country indirectly means that you thought it is invalid which is something unacceptable.

In Egypt we say "in the Land that worships the cow, throw it some clover."

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Neither of which have been preserved.

You are mistaken, alhamdulillah.

Prove it.

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Quote
and went into some detail, including his personal experience in the field.  I've seen data saying the same elsewhere, including by Muslims for Muslims in the Muslim world.

Care to share this obscure data?

You haven't seen the video?  As for the stuff I saw in the Muslim world, it was constant: the one that sticks in my mind was the Al-Azhar magazine that had the headline "One Million Indonesian Muslims become Christians [lit. Nazarenes]."  To pull stuff up here, I'd have to have a Arabic font compter (unfortunately, this isn't.  I could look in English if I have time later).

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Nigeria now has a Christian president, and Christianity has penetrated the Muslim Hausa big time.  I was a supporter of the conservative Arinze in the last papal conclave. I still like him, and what he has to say. And say he does, all over the world.

Africa had 9 million Christians in 1900. In 2000 it had over 380 million, expected on present trends to reach 633 million (mostly traditional, btw) Christians in 2025.

Now that you reminded me, I'm sure what that guy did is taking the current number of Christian in the continent and dividing it on the number of years that missionary work really started which is about 100 years a go. In fact, wikipedia says there 450 million Christians in the continent, if you divide it by 100, you get 4.5 million people per year, with the number he used it gave hum little less than 6 million.

Lo! The mystery is solved.

Then sleep soundly.

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Quote
And conversions happen everywhere: every Copt I know in Egypt knows at least one ex-Muslim who had been baptized. Offset, of course, by the persecusions.

Millions of them!

The persecusion is in the tens of thousands, for now.

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Jaruzelski found out otherwise.

The PRI in Mexico found out otherwise.

Castro is finding out otherwise.

I'd wise up.

The attendence rate at those funerals is as significant as the  attendence rate for any other pop icon's funeral.

Those aren't funerals. What are you talking about?

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Christianity was much, much, much stronger during the 'midieval' tims when popes had nothing like these funerals.

assUming are we?  Can you put some factual meat on that dry bone of an assertion?

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And are you really using Castro as an example of a Christian?
No.

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O Christ, where art thou? Come see what happened to thine legacy!

http://ockenga.gordonconwell.edu/ockenga/globalchristianity/gd/gd04.pdf
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« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2010, 05:03:35 PM »


I must give this one to you, Muslims do indeed blaspheme when they call for the Almighty to be worshiped properly as the Prophets worshiped him before you and before us, we blaspheme the devil and honour God.

This is what you presume. You follow but a conjecture. We worship God alone and in the way He wants us to. He revealed Himself to us through Jesus Christ, His eternal Word (Son).

None of the prophets denied the fact that God has a creative Word and life-giving Spirit. Even your Mohammad knew this although he never understood it properly.

What's wrong with having a physical direction in prayer? You pray towards the East, Jew pray toward Jerusalem. Again and again, you show that, if it's true converted, that you have knowledge neither about your current religion nor about God's Religion.

Drop these fallacies of red herring. I am not talking about directions, but about the Cube, the Meccan pantheon of paganism. Christians do not worship a building unlike Muslims.

Stop attacking me personally. It is a logical fallacy.

There's no red herring, this is the very subject we're discussing.

Not true.

The holiest of books does not dwell on the subject, but you seem to have rejected just every law and tradition, what you preserved you have disfigured beyond recognition.

Why do you bring up this subject then if your fallacious scripture is silent on it as it is silent on many important subjects? What is your purpose?

More, it is better not to have a law than having a law that sanctions adultery (multiple wives) and many other blasphemous acts.

Finally, Christianity does not reject every law and tradition. This untrue statement of yours exposes your ignorance.

God created man with an intellect and gave him the choice between good and evil, between worshipping Him Almighty and submitting to Him thus embracing Islam, the Religion of the Prophets and their faithful followers, or to worship and submit to what's beneath Him.

This is irrelevant to my point. Your Allah thinks it is a good thing for people to have different religions and sects. It is a necessity for his test. Your Allah does not complain about the variety of religions on earth. He does not present it as a problem unlike you. You should study the Qur'an before coming here to defend it.  Grin


Conclusions are made based on observation and signs, it is up to you to follow those signs or to reject them in pride.

Not every conclusion based on observation and signs is absolutely true though. Islam also teaches that Allah sometimes shows false signs to mislead people.

Alhamdulillah, before the Quran was written down it was recorded, in his entirity, in the hearts of God's men.


Evidence for that? Islamic history says Mohammad did not commit the Qur'an to writing during his lifetime. Your scripture was compiled by others than Mohammad after Mohammad's death. Islamic history says this, not me.  Grin
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« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2010, 02:53:04 AM »

You'll have to be more specific. What non-Orthodox are you speaking of (as of course, the Orthodox have no such dogmas.  The behavior of individual Orthodox are a different matter.

Which dogmas?

Quote
The Jew comes to the site of their temple, and we venerate the images of the members of the True Temple.  What is your reason for kissing a lump of iron rock?

Regardless of whether or not you disagree, it's the house of Abraham.

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Revived nothing. If you saw the Orthodox praying the Hours, you'd see where you got it.

Christians have neglected prayer, a few Jews still perform it but not in a codified manner, all Muslims do the payer in details as it was done by the Prophets, at least they are supposed to. We won't invent a prayer just because Jews' prayer is similar.

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Your Ramadan fast is modeled after the Orthodox fast of Great Lent.

No, friend, abstaining from animal products, wine and oil is not fasting. Again you've neglected fasting, Jews still hold it, but it prescribed to them in different days than us. Alhamdulillah, God has blessed us with longer time of obligatory fasting.

Again, you're overrating Christianity.

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Not a problem: if you look at the very early collections (1st century A.H.) and see their transformation over time, the process of Islamitization is clear.

I'm not I understood what you wanted to say there.

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Your lack of an imam/caliph, and your dogma of naskh.

Our spiritual Imam is the consensus of the Nation's scholars and our Chalif is, well, the Chalif. And what's your problem with naskh? Didn God allow the children of Adam to marry among themselves, and then He forbade it afterwards?

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By your own tradition, you religion was born broken into 72 sects, and has hundreds, if not thousands more, over its history. Two communions (the Vatican and the Orthodox) have around 3/4s of Christianity, and have throughout its history.

Different scholars have given different 72 groups, and most of the times the deviations of these groups from the consensus are in rather trivial theological or juridical matters, which is a lot less radical than the differences between, for example, Orthodox churches.

Still, the overwhelming majority of those groups were a man and a few of his followers and the sect died as soon as the leader died.

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Spew less, say more.

I actually think what I wrote there is highly worthy of contemplation, and you ought to consider it.

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Do you have an ijaazah to issue that fatwah?

Fatwa is simply a juridical ruling, so you're asking if I have an ijaza in Islamic jurisprudence, no, but it doesn't need one to know that all madhabs of the follower of the sunna and the consensus are valid.

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Prove it.

The life of the prophet and the companions is recorded in more than details, unlike Christians, we know exactly what our Religion is.

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You haven't seen the video?  As for the stuff I saw in the Muslim world, it was constant: the one that sticks in my mind was the Al-Azhar magazine that had the headline "One Million Indonesian Muslims become Christians [lit. Nazarenes]."  To pull stuff up here, I'd have to have a Arabic font compter (unfortunately, this isn't.  I could look in English if I have time later).

You can't use the video itself as an evidence for what it's in the video.

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Then sleep soundly.

You are the one making a big fuzz out of it. For us conversion is a normal matter, we don't have to clinch on imaginary statistics. Just a three or four days a go I was buying a book from the library, and there were two people, one asked the lady there for a Spanish-Arabic dictionary but with Latin scrip, she gave him one, then the other guy started speaking and it turned out he's Spanish (you couldn't tell because most people here in Northern Morocco have fair skin and a lot of them are blond, like the Moroccan guy in that situation), he also asked for a Quran, she brought him a Quran with Arabic, Arabic transliteration and Spanish. The guy was so happy, it was just ridiculous!


Quote

So now you are interested in numbers? How many of those are Orthodox? How many of those are not drunk 80% of the time when they're wake up? How many of thm are not prostitutes?

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
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« Reply #120 on: July 15, 2010, 04:13:25 AM »

I thought for a change of paste, I'd answer from the bottom up. Call it my homage to our friends from Australia and NZ. I'm also going to break it down.  I'm also going back to bed soon, so I'll have to return to it.

It was the first map which popped up on a search.  You asked where Christ is, and I've shown you.  If I was interested in numbers, I'd post this:


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How many of those are Orthodox?
'
Or maybe you prefer something like this (we are the dark brown, and the grey in Ethiopia. You're the light brown).


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How many of those are not drunk 80% of the time when they're wake up? How many of thm are not prostitutes?

LOL.  Don't know, but it is odd that you bring that up, as I've already told you, I've lived in the Muslim world.  Just a half hour ago it was announced that Pakistan (which may now be the largest Muslim country again) is the leader in porn searches on the internet.

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None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
You must be a prophet, being able to judge millions you do not know.
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« Reply #121 on: July 15, 2010, 04:18:08 AM »

This is what you presume. You follow but a conjecture. We worship God alone and in the way He wants us to. He revealed Himself to us through Jesus Christ, His eternal Word (Son).

None of the prophets denied the fact that God has a creative Word and life-giving Spirit. Even your Mohammad knew this although he never understood it properly.

Sure thing, bro, sure thing.

Drop these fallacies of red herring. I am not talking about directions, but about the Cube, the Meccan pantheon of paganism. Christians do not worship a building unlike Muslims.

Stop attacking me personally. It is a logical fallacy.

Stick with one theory, do we worship the moon or the ka'aba? You can't have both.

May God keep us away from ignorance.

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Why do you bring up this subject then if your fallacious scripture is silent on it as it is silent on many important subjects? What is your purpose?

More, it is better not to have a law than having a law that sanctions adultery (multiple wives) and many other blasphemous acts.

If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. (exodus 21:10)

So the bible is condoning adultery, yes?

May the Almighty bless us with knowledge.

Quote
Finally, Christianity does not reject every law and tradition. This untrue statement of yours exposes your ignorance.

I really can't think of a Biblical tradition that wasn't either twisted beyond recognition by Christians or discarded all together. This includes, but not limited to: Monotheism, canonical prayer, fasting, war, marriage et cetera.

Quote
This is irrelevant to my point. Your Allah thinks it is a good thing for people to have different religions and sects. It is a necessity for his test. Your Allah does not complain about the variety of religions on earth. He does not present it as a problem unlike you. You should study the Qur'an before coming here to defend it.  Grin

God does not complain about anything, everything happens by his will. People are free to either follow his religion, Islam, or to deviate from it.


Quote
Not every conclusion based on observation and signs is absolutely true though. Islam also teaches that Allah sometimes shows false signs to mislead people.

Those who choose to disbelieve do it out of their own will:

Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path). (2:26)

Anyway, as a Christian, you can't have an objection on any thing you stated there, because you believe the same (unless you disagree with the teachings of the Church and think people act against the will of God)


Quote
Evidence for that? Islamic history says Mohammad did not commit the Qur'an to writing during his lifetime. Your scripture was compiled by others than Mohammad after Mohammad's death. Islamic history says this, not me.  Grin

When the Prophet died, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of people who memorized the Quran from the first to the last word, writing it down has little to no significance to them.


And my Creator and yours knows best.
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« Reply #122 on: July 15, 2010, 05:17:12 AM »

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
What, then, does it mean to a Muslim to follow Christ?
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« Reply #123 on: July 15, 2010, 05:25:46 AM »

Mekki .....

Are Muslims allowed  to lie....  Here in Chicago the Manager who is also the Maintenance Engineer in the building i lived in, he and his wife are Serbian Muslims from Serbia ....
His wife acumulated quite a lot of parking tickets ,Double Parking her car for hours, never looking out the window if a parking spot opened up .....

She cornered me one day ,asked me to lie, to  city hall that i lost my residentual neighborhood parking sticker, so i can get another one from the city  and give it to her, the city runs plate numbers to see if one owes tickets before issuing a residentual parking sticker, so she couldn't get one....

When i moved into the building, she was a very modern western dressed woman ...Then she changed a few yrs after to a more devout look, covered her hair ,had loose fitting cloths on...This is the time she asked me to lie for her ...
I responded to her ,by saying you look like a woman of deep faith ,truly you don't me to lie for you...She didn't know how to respond after that ,she shrugged her shoulders and walked away.... Grin




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« Reply #124 on: July 15, 2010, 05:45:16 AM »

Mekki,

I notice that you haven't yet addressed the substance of this post:
The followers of Mohammed only understand Christianity as it was given them by their own leaders and teachers to understand, not as it actually is. One can find corroborative, historical evidence of the witness of Orthodox Christianity, the writing of the Scriptures, and the teaching of the apostles and their successors from non-partisan studies. So, we'll ask them to do what we ask the Jews to do (produce the body). Let the followers of Mohammed produce actual evidence of their claims that there was corruption in the way they claim, or else let them worship Christ with us, for it was not a mere man who was born without seed from the Ever-Virgin Mary, but the Son of God, equal to the Father in all things, as it was revealed to us by Christ and his holy apostles. Otherwise, there can be no real conversation.

The evidence is Christianity itself, a non-Biblical religion that produced deviation after deviation to the degree that there are Churches by thousands now, all of them based on doctrines that an Israelites would clench for merely hearing them. The nature of this religion allow for the satanic, hedonistic modern world to be Born out of its womb.

Which you feel obligated to destroy in a blood bath.... yada yada

Yawn

Like  with all doubters it's the Resurrection that is the major sticking point .But there are only a few possibilities.

1. The Romans stole the Body
2. The Jews stole the Body
3. The Apostles stole the Body

If either the Jews or the Romans had stolen the body, at some point, just Apostles  were proclaiming the Resurrection, they certainly would have said. "Nope, here he is" and dumped the Body in front of them..... thus ending Christianity' forever.

If the Apostles themselves had stolen the body, they would not have given their very lives, via extreme torture, beheading, burning, crucifixion and skinning alive for a fraud. The second the knife cuts into your skin you would confess. None of them did that. Not one. They all went to their deaths happy in the knowledge of their salvation.

On the other hand, Muhammad heard voices that dictated various prophecies and regulations to him... Okay..umm..Is that all ya got? Anyone can claim that.

Christians have something called "Corroboration"... look it up. I am glad Muhammad prayed every day. So did Joseph Smith.

Even more foundational to the Christian faith than the Trinity is our proclamation that Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead. In Chapter 15 of his First Epistle to the Corinthians, the Apostle Paul proclaimed to his audience that more than 500 people saw Jesus after He had risen. According to this testimony, most of those 500 were still alive at the time St. Paul wrote this epistle and could be questioned regarding their own account of the resurrection. This could hardly be considered a private revelation.

Outside of Muhammad, to whom else does Islam say God revealed the Qu'ran directly? Or was Muhammad the only one, and we are required to accept his personal account as true? If we have no other first-hand eyewitnesses to corroborate that Muhammad's word is true, all we have is second-hand accounts from those persons with whom Muhammad shared his revelations. How are we supposed to recognize this as reliable evidence? One man can concoct a bald faced fantasy and get gullible people to believe him a prophet--just look at our own nation's experience with Joseph Smith and the Mormons--but without the corroboration of eyewitnesses who all saw the same fantastical vision, the one man's words may be the ravings of a psychotic.

Now, which do you think we Christians would find more believable? An event witnessed by over 500 persons, or an event "revealed" to one and only one person?
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« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2010, 08:47:07 AM »


Stick with one theory, do we worship the moon or the ka'aba? You can't have both.

My theories are different. You worship the moon god, but also his house.

If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. (exodus 21:10)

He cannot marry another. God's primary and original plan for mankind's marital union was monogamy. Ditto.

So the bible is condoning adultery, yes?

The Bible sanctioned polygamy for Israel and for a limited time, but it also pointed at the difficulties caused by it. The Book of Genesis says God wants man to marry one single woman. Besides, the Qur'an never praises monogamy or associates it with the first couple directly created by God.

I really can't think of a Biblical tradition that wasn't either twisted beyond recognition by Christians or discarded all together. This includes, but not limited to: Monotheism, canonical prayer, fasting, war, marriage et cetera.

That is because of your twisted reasoning. I can say for sure that there is no Christian tenet that you have not twisted beyond recognition. You have also discarded our explanations and answers.  Roll Eyes

God does not complain about anything, everything happens by his will. People are free to either follow his religion, Islam, or to deviate from it.

Why do you keep saying then that religious differences and fractions illustrate the corruption of a faith?

Those who choose to disbelieve do it out of their own will:

Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path). (2:26)

Anyway, as a Christian, you can't have an objection on any thing you stated there, because you believe the same (unless you disagree with the teachings of the Church and think people act against the will of God)

As a Christian I never claim or believe that God is a deceiver. This claim and doctrine is peculiar to the Qur'an.

When the Prophet died, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of people who memorized the Quran from the first to the last word, writing it down has little to no significance to them.

And my Creator and yours knows best.


Do not give evasive answers please. I need evidence for your claim. You cannot simply prove one assertion with the help of another. You must convince me that those thousands of people (their names?) memorized the Qur'an from first to the last word. When I read the Qur'an, I find textual variations there. For instance:

And the magicians were cast down making obeisance; they said: We believe in the Lord of Haroun and Musa. (Surah 20:70)

And the magicians were thrown down prostrate; They said: We believe in the Lord of the worlds: The Lord of Musa and Haroun. (Surah 26:46-48)

And the enchanters were thrown down, prostrating (themselves). They said: We believe in the Lord of the worlds, The Lord of Musa and Haroun. (Surah 7:120-122)

What did the magicians precisely say? It seems that the people supposedly memorizing the Qur'an properly could not get a simple sequence correct.  Roll Eyes

What about Uthman and his tampering with the Qur'an text? He was not aware of those people that allegedly transmitted the Qur'an to further generations?
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« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2010, 09:02:54 AM »

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
What, then, does it mean to a Muslim to follow Christ?

It means that he worships God in the same manner that all prophets called for it, including Christ son of Mary. And we uphold the Law that God prescribed to us like he prescribed Laws to previous nations.
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« Reply #127 on: July 15, 2010, 09:16:07 AM »

Mekki,
Which you feel obligated to destroy in a blood bath.... yada yada

If Muslims ever wanted to destroy Christianity, Orthodoxy wouldn't have existed today.

Quote
Like  with all doubters it's the Resurrection that is the major sticking point .But there are only a few possibilities.

1. The Romans stole the Body
2. The Jews stole the Body
3. The Apostles stole the Body

If either the Jews or the Romans had stolen the body, at some point, just Apostles  were proclaiming the Resurrection, they certainly would have said. "Nope, here he is" and dumped the Body in front of them..... thus ending Christianity' forever.

If the Apostles themselves had stolen the body, they would not have given their very lives, via extreme torture, beheading, burning, crucifixion and skinning alive for a fraud. The second the knife cuts into your skin you would confess. None of them did that. Not one. They all went to their deaths happy in the knowledge of their salvation.

You're talking as though these are recorded facts. The NT was written many years after the death of Jesus by unknown individuals.

Quote
Christians have something called "Corroboration"... look it up. I am glad Muhammad prayed every day. So did Joseph Smith.

There's a quite big difference between saying 'Lord's prayer' by bed before going to sleep, and praying five times in the mosque, one of which at dawn and the other during the night in a time where there were no street lights, that and praying for hour upon hours in a non canonical prayer. The best of Creation used to prayed until his feet are swollen.

Quote
Even more foundational to the Christian faith than the Trinity is our proclamation that Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead. In Chapter 15 of his First Epistle to the Corinthians, the Apostle Paul proclaimed to his audience that more than 500 people saw Jesus after He had risen. According to this testimony, most of those 500 were still alive at the time St. Paul wrote this epistle and could be questioned regarding their own account of the resurrection. This could hardly be considered a private revelation.

Outside of Muhammad, to whom else does Islam say God revealed the Qu'ran directly? Or was Muhammad the only one, and we are required to accept his personal account as true? If we have no other first-hand eyewitnesses to corroborate that Muhammad's word is true, all we have is second-hand accounts from those persons with whom Muhammad shared his revelations. How are we supposed to recognize this as reliable evidence? One man can concoct a bald faced fantasy and get gullible people to believe him a prophet--just look at our own nation's experience with Joseph Smith and the Mormons--but without the corroboration of eyewitnesses who all saw the same fantastical vision, the one man's words may be the ravings of a psychotic.

Now, which do you think we Christians would find more believable? An event witnessed by over 500 persons, or an event "revealed" to one and only one person?

Like I said, the last thing to be said about the NT is that it's an objectively accurate narration of events. Not to mention the fact that no one witnessed the revelation on Moses or saw him being resurrected, yet whomever made the choice to disbelieve in him has chosen his doom.
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« Reply #128 on: July 15, 2010, 09:45:54 AM »

My theories are different. You worship the moon god, but also his house.

What else to expect, you're trying to clinch to anything that can save you from your doubts, you're like a man thrown to the see, desperately tying to stay alive, though life here is an allegory of you death.

If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. (exodus 21:10)

He cannot marry another.
[/quote]

You're claiming to have higher authority than God there.

The Bible sanctioned polygamy for Israel and for a limited time, but it also pointed at the difficulties caused by it.

So God allowed the Israelites to practice adultery according to you?

Quote
The Book of Genesis says God wants man to marry one single woman. Besides, the Qur'an never praises monogamy or associates it with the first couple directly created by God.

The Quran narrates the same story.

Quote
That is because of your twisted reasoning. I can say for sure that there is no Christian tenet that you have not twisted beyond recognition. You have also discarded our explanations and answers.  Roll Eyes

We are proud that we rejected all Christian tenets for they are in the opposite direction from that leading to the Almighty.

Quote
Why do you keep saying then that religious differences and fractions illustrate the corruption of a faith?

Because humanity needs a universal religion, this universal religion can not be Christianity because of its nature which allowed for the fragmentation among other things.


Quote
As a Christian I never claim or believe that God is a deceiver. This claim and doctrine is peculiar to the Qur'an.

So you think the people who were deceived and walked away from the Truth did so against the will of God? Because that what it means to say that God does not deceive, as saying that God does not torture people means that all kinds of torturing on Earth happens against the will of God, which goes against the principle of God's omnipotence.

Quote
Do not give evasive answers please. I need evidence for your claim. You cannot simply prove one assertion with the help of another. You must convince me that those thousands of people (their names?) memorized the Qur'an from first to the last word.

These are not evasive question, dear kind sir. The Quran was revealed during the period of 23 years, which means people had up to 23 years to memorize the Quran as it was revealed (depending on when they converted). It would absolutely absurd to not be able to conceive that at least tens if not hundreds of people memorized the Quran during that period considerings the fact that kids today and throughout Islamic history memorized the entire Quran in two or three years.

Anyway, check this link, you'll find what you're asking for there:

http://www.lastprophet.info/en/the-revelation-and-recording-of-the-quran/efforts-of-the-companions-to-memorize-and-write-down-the-quran.html

Quote
When I read the Qur'an, I find textual variations there. For instance:

And the magicians were cast down making obeisance; they said: We believe in the Lord of Haroun and Musa. (Surah 20:70)

And the magicians were thrown down prostrate; They said: We believe in the Lord of the worlds: The Lord of Musa and Haroun. (Surah 26:46-48)

And the enchanters were thrown down, prostrating (themselves). They said: We believe in the Lord of the worlds, The Lord of Musa and Haroun. (Surah 7:120-122)

What did the magicians precisely say? It seems that the people supposedly memorizing the Qur'an properly could not get a simple sequence correct.  Roll Eyes

Egyptians did not speak Arabic, these are accounts of what has been said before the Pharaoh in meaning, not in words, perhaps they have made a half hour speech about how they believed in the God of Moses, but the essence is what was said there.

Quote
What about Uthman and his tampering with the Qur'an text? He was not aware of those people that allegedly transmitted the Qur'an to further generations?

99 % of people who received the Quran didn't do so through the written Mus'haf which came to existence due to Uthman's efforts, may God reward him for it, they received it though people who memorized it before them and thought it to them.

But it's quite strange that this objection comes from someone whose religion is based on collection of book written in unknown dates by unknown people. Even if you were to tell me that me that the dates and the writers are known, consider that only a complete fool would find the authenticity of the Quran more questionable than the authenticity of the NT, only a drooling a fool.



May the Almighty guide you, brother, and cast pride away from you.
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« Reply #129 on: July 15, 2010, 09:47:40 AM »

Mekki .....

Are Muslims allowed  to lie....  Here in Chicago the Manager who is also the Maintenance Engineer in the building i lived in, he and his wife are Serbian Muslims from Serbia ....
His wife acumulated quite a lot of parking tickets ,Double Parking her car for hours, never looking out the window if a parking spot opened up .....

She cornered me one day ,asked me to lie, to  city hall that i lost my residentual neighborhood parking sticker, so i can get another one from the city  and give it to her, the city runs plate numbers to see if one owes tickets before issuing a residentual parking sticker, so she couldn't get one....

When i moved into the building, she was a very modern western dressed woman ...Then she changed a few yrs after to a more devout look, covered her hair ,had loose fitting cloths on...This is the time she asked me to lie for her ...
I responded to her ,by saying you look like a woman of deep faith ,truly you don't me to lie for you...She didn't know how to respond after that ,she shrugged her shoulders and walked away.... Grin

No they are not.

May our Creator Almighty forgive us all for our mistakes, and lead us to the right path and keep us on it.
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« Reply #130 on: July 15, 2010, 11:01:11 AM »


What else to expect, you're trying to clinch to anything that can save you from your doubts, you're like a man thrown to the see, desperately tying to stay alive, though life here is an allegory of you death.

Another personal attack! Good luck with your logical fallacies.  Wink

If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. (exodus 21:10)

You're claiming to have higher authority than God there.

I am simply repeating what Lord Jesus taught me in His Gospel. I do not make personal judgments that contradict God's decrees. My name is not Mohammad, nor is my father's name is Abdallah.  laugh

So God allowed the Israelites to practice adultery according to you?

NO. Since God's decree for monogamy was suspended in Israel for an appointed time, I cannot say that the people under the Law committed adultery. Besides, God never said in the Bible that men were allowed to practice polygamy. He simply overlooked the shortcomings and imperfection of the Israelites until Christ's advent.

The Quran narrates the same story.

NO. The Qur'an NEVER presents Adam and Eve's relation as the perfect pattern of marriage endorsed by God. This is why the Genesis verse that Christ refers to in His Gospel is missing from your scripture. More, your Allah even says he put enmity between Adam and his wife when he banished them from heaven.

We are proud that we rejected all Christian tenets for they are in the opposite direction from that leading to the Almighty.

I am proud that I rejected all the Islamic innovations and inventions going against Christ and the Bible. Praised be the name of Elohim YHWH who saved me from the pit of Islam.

Because humanity needs a universal religion, this universal religion can not be Christianity because of its nature which allowed for the fragmentation among other things.

Your Allah disagrees with you.

You are also committing a logical fallacy here again. The question whether a religion is universal or not is dependent on its message, not on the number of its fractions. According to your faulty reasoning, people need a new universal religion now because Islam has many fractions.

So you think the people who were deceived and walked away from the Truth did so against the will of God? Because that what it means to say that God does not deceive, as saying that God does not torture people means that all kinds of torturing on Earth happens against the will of God, which goes against the principle of God's omnipotence.


Red herring! Torturing is not the same as deceiving. These two notions are not even related. If you think otherwise, you have serious issues. I say that GOD does not deceive. Satan is the deceiver. Your Qur'an teaches otherwise. It says Allah's guile is strong whereas Satan's guile is weak.

These are not evasive question, dear kind sir. The Quran was revealed during the period of 23 years, which means people had up to 23 years to memorize the Quran as it was revealed (depending on when they converted). It would absolutely absurd to not be able to conceive that at least tens if not hundreds of people memorized the Quran during that period considerings the fact that kids today and throughout Islamic history memorized the entire Quran in two or three years.

Another logical fallacy. You are resorting to circular reasoning now.

It is equally absurd to intorduce a supposed absurdity as evidence for an allegation. Today's people have the ENTIRE Qur'an. They have the full text so as to check if their memorization is accurate. We cannot say the same about the unidentified people who lived in Mohammad's time. They had no text to follow and see if their recitation was correct. They also had new material added to their previous recitation. It would be natural for them to make mistakes and confuse similar narratives that varied only in details. I have already given you an example for such inevitable mistakes and variations.


Egyptians did not speak Arabic, these are accounts of what has been said before the Pharaoh in meaning, not in words, perhaps they have made a half hour speech about how they believed in the God of Moses, but the essence is what was said there.

I want to know in Arabic what those magicians precisely said. Was it so difficult for your Allah to translate their utterance into Arabic? Actually, it is not a translation issue since the difference is only in the order of the two people. Do you mean Egyptians could not say Moses' name first because of their language? This is ridiculous! How could they say Moses' name first in the two other verses then?

Further, I am not interested in the CONTENT of those verses, but their FORM. Either your Allah made a mistake due to his short memory while revealing those verses or your great men of recitation bungled. Choose an option.


99 % of people who received the Quran didn't do so through the written Mus'haf which came to existence due to Uthman's efforts, may God reward him for it, they received it though people who memorized it before them and thought it to them.


Your unsubstantiated claims are making an Islamic dance here. You are going for tawaf around some absurd allegations and reaching no place.

But it's quite strange that this objection comes from someone whose religion is based on collection of book written in unknown dates by unknown people. Even if you were to tell me that me that the dates and the writers are known, consider that only a complete fool would find the authenticity of the Quran more questionable than the authenticity of the NT, only a drooling a fool.

May the Almighty guide you, brother, and cast pride away from you.

We know the writers of the New Testament and the dates of their composition. Attacking Christianity will not save your Islam from critique. Only a fool would think otherwise.

Show me the Qur'an that was compiled by Abu Bakr, then I shall consider it a genuine book written by Mohammad's mentor.
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« Reply #131 on: July 15, 2010, 02:05:01 PM »

Mekki...


I read in the Papers awhile back, that the Saudis bulldozed Your Prophet Mohamed's house least it becomes a idol, of worship and paved a parking lot for a mall over it...

The shia's were outraged by the Saudis action, they were ready to make pilgramages to it.....

Why is the cube more important or as you believe Abrahams house ,than the actual house of your Prophet,that the Saudis destroyed .....
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« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2010, 02:31:53 PM »

Mekki,

Which you feel obligated to destroy in a blood bath.... yada yada

If Muslims ever wanted to destroy Christianity, Orthodoxy wouldn't have existed today.

Like  with all doubters it's the Resurrection that is the major sticking point .But there are only a few possibilities.

1. The Romans stole the Body
2. The Jews stole the Body
3. The Apostles stole the Body

If either the Jews or the Romans had stolen the body, at some point, just Apostles  were proclaiming the Resurrection, they certainly would have said. "Nope, here he is" and dumped the Body in front of them..... thus ending Christianity' forever.

If the Apostles themselves had stolen the body, they would not have given their very lives, via extreme torture, beheading, burning, crucifixion and skinning alive for a fraud. The second the knife cuts into your skin you would confess. None of them did that. Not one. They all went to their deaths happy in the knowledge of their salvation.

You're talking as though these are recorded facts. The NT was written many years after the death of Jesus by unknown individuals.
Wrong! The earliest known NT writings were written as soon after the death and resurrection of Christ as about 15 years and by a man who was very well known throughout the early Church, a man who was introduced to Christ on one of his many voyages to destroy Christ's followers. As this man, the Apostle Paul, intimated in his first letter to the Corinthians, he was preaching the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ while many of the eyewitnesses to these events were still alive. Anyone who didn't believe him could simply ask others of these eyewitnesses for their account. Note also that St. Paul spoke of traditional beliefs regarding Christ's death and resurrection that predated even his epistles.

For comparison purposes, the earliest known biography of Alexander the Great was written some 400 years or so after his death. Yet we see this as reliable. Why, then, should we not trust so many more biographies of Christ that were written between 15 and 40 years after the man's bodily departure from this earth? Compared to 400 years, 40 years is certainly a flash in the pan, is it not?

Christians have something called "Corroboration"... look it up. I am glad Muhammad prayed every day. So did Joseph Smith.

There's a quite big difference between saying 'Lord's prayer' by bed before going to sleep, and praying five times in the mosque, one of which at dawn and the other during the night in a time where there were no street lights, that and praying for hour upon hours in a non canonical prayer. The best of Creation used to prayed until his feet are swollen.
You're missing Marc's point here.

Even more foundational to the Christian faith than the Trinity is our proclamation that Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead. In Chapter 15 of his First Epistle to the Corinthians, the Apostle Paul proclaimed to his audience that more than 500 people saw Jesus after He had risen. According to this testimony, most of those 500 were still alive at the time St. Paul wrote this epistle and could be questioned regarding their own account of the resurrection. This could hardly be considered a private revelation.

Outside of Muhammad, to whom else does Islam say God revealed the Qu'ran directly? Or was Muhammad the only one, and we are required to accept his personal account as true? If we have no other first-hand eyewitnesses to corroborate that Muhammad's word is true, all we have is second-hand accounts from those persons with whom Muhammad shared his revelations. How are we supposed to recognize this as reliable evidence? One man can concoct a bald faced fantasy and get gullible people to believe him a prophet--just look at our own nation's experience with Joseph Smith and the Mormons--but without the corroboration of eyewitnesses who all saw the same fantastical vision, the one man's words may be the ravings of a psychotic.

Now, which do you think we Christians would find more believable? An event witnessed by over 500 persons, or an event "revealed" to one and only one person?

Like I said, the last thing to be said about the NT is that it's an objectively accurate narration of events.
You're not addressing the substance of my criticism. This isn't dodge ball, so stop dodging the question. How do you defend the Qu'ran against the charge that there's no one to corroborate the visions Muhammad allegedly received? How do you know that the Qu'ran is an objectively accurate narration of events when there's never been anyone outside of Muhammad who could verify that they actually occurred as Muhammad narrated them? At least with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we have a historical record, written well within the lifetimes of these eyewitnesses, that He revealed Himself alive to several hundred people after He had died and was buried.

Not to mention the fact that no one witnessed the revelation on Moses or saw him being resurrected, yet whomever made the choice to disbelieve in him has chosen his doom.
Huh Could you at least share with us examples of events with which we're familiar? I've never seen this "teaching" before.
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« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2010, 03:44:26 PM »

no no. You are the one that claims something, and I do no accept it. Therefor, you shall provide me with evidence you claim to possess that will force me to accept your statement. Do not claim to have evidence and then upon request tell me to go to another forum for the task of discrediting evidence you clearly do not possess. You made the claim, now back it up yourself. Otherwise, do not make such ignorant claims.

Let me give you a basic rundown of why your claim is incorrect.

Copts are generally considered to be the descendants of ancient Egyptians, or the pre-Arab invasion Egyptians. Individuals who converted to Islam and succombed to Arabification were also for the most part Coptic originally, but genetically became more diverse since intermarriage with Arab Muslims became common, as opposed to the Copts who primarily continued to marry amongst themselves. Y-Chromosome studies show that Egyptian genes show strong similarities with fellow North African peoples, and also with Middle Eastern peoples. However, the Copts not only exist as a seperate ethnic group today because of religion, but when studying the ethnic groups of Egypt, the Copts/Christians are often presented as a seperate genetic group on their own. This is of course for the known reason that their genetic make up is at the very least slightly different from the Muslim Egyptians. Yes you see the term "Homogeneous Egypt" but it is followed by "90% of Egypt is Arab". The ten percent ommitted from this homogeneous status is indeed the Copts.

It's common knowledge that Egypt was Islamized mainly due to conversion
No, it's a common assertion.  How common in Egypt is an interesting question: most Arab Muslims pride themselves on Arab ancestry, which basically leaves conversion out of the question. I've actually heard it asserted more by Copts, but even they admit a lot of the Muslims are Arab imports.

Quote
rather than immigration, so the burden of proof in on you. But the fact is, Genetic studies show that no genetic shift occurred in Egypt.

You have yet to produce such "studies."  The problem is like trying to using testing to find out which indentical twin is the father of a child: most of the genes coming into Egypt after Islam came, were coming before.  There is, however, some difference between Y-chromosome studies and metrochondria, which would suggest differences in paternal and maternal lines (which often happens in subjected populations, for obvious reasons).

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Not to mention who absurd it is to claim that Egypt, a country which has more population than Arabia put together, was islamized though Arab migration, for this to be true, Arabia must have been evacuated and every Arab went to Egypt.

Your not much on population studies, are you?  Brazil now has far more Lebanese than Lebanon does (6-7 million versus 4 million).  When the US became independent, it had under 4 million: 3,929,326, including 697,681 slaves (Amerindians, the US equivalent of the Copts, were not counted, but seem to have been just below 100,000). So 3, 231,645 (versus 10 million or slightly less in Great Britiain: it had around 5 million when they began to set up the English colonies). That from less than a milliion immigrants: the British sent 425,500, ended up with 2,560,000.  The Dutch, whose colony of 6,000 had been conquered in 1674, stayed and ended up with 100,000 in 1790 (including Martin Van Buren, the only US president not to have English as his native language: he spoke with a life long Dutch accent).  Immigration was a trickle until 1850, when the US had over 23 million, i.e. in just over two generations, it had increased fourfould. 1850-1930 the bulk of immigrants came (35 million), and the US ended up with 122,775,000.  That number depended on less than the 35 million immigrants, as a little publicized fact is that a third of all immigrants did go back to their home countries. So with about 12 million immigrants increased 3000% from 4 million in 1790 to 122 million in 1930. Other countries like Canada/Quebec etc. show similar demographic history. I use the New World examples as they are the best documented cases as to the demographic impact of imported populations.

To turn Egypt, Lane writes 1825-1835 that the population of Egypt was just over 2 million (depressed from demographic disruption caused by the establishment of Muhammad Ali's regime), and included 150,000 Copts at most.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iTUPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA273&dq=Copts+Lane&hl=en&ei=CiA_TMOrMcjanAfittTUBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Copts%20Lane&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=xTUPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA26&dq=%22In+a+country+where+neither+births+nor+deaths+are+registered%22&hl=en&ei=jSI_TJ7XOp2QnweK0fWXBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22In%20a%20country%20where%20neither%20births%20nor%20deaths%20are%20registered%22&f=false

I've seen estimates as high as 4-5 million for the population as a whole, and as high as a quarter million for the Copts at the time. Let's use the high 5 million for the total population, and even go lower than Lane for the Copts to 100,000 (the absolute mimimum for the time).  As you keep going on about, the population has increased in the just under two centuries at least 1,500%, not even considering the considerable emmigration from Egypt. Using the government's figures, which even it admits are low, the Copts have increased 5,000-7,500% over the same time, and have gone from at least 2% to the present government claim of 6-7% (I"ve seen Egyptian government publications which admit as high as 20%). This, as the law court records show, Copts do convert to Islam. Btw, at independence the population was 13 million, with 700,000 Copts according to the census. At the time of the British invasion (our last) in 1882 the census said the country had 6,806,400, with 6,051,625 (88.91%) Muslims, and 405, 903 Copts (5.96%). The rest were Greeks, Armenians, Jews, and foreignors.  Recent Turks were 10-20,000  The Arab Bedouin in the Deserts, interestingly, began to be counted in the country's census: they were 250,000. Despite nearly a century and a half of being kept at arms length, marginalized while also forcibly settled, they number just under a million now (not counting their settled descendants).  The ones who came in brining Islam, who had the whole of the Nile Valley for their use, could, and did, even better.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PR24&dq=Egypt%20census%20700%2C000%20christian&ei=FT4_TMT8CMLbnAfn083mBA&ct=result&id=mGjOAAAAMAAJ&output=text

Btw, the population of the Arabian Peninsula is 77,983,936, so you are pretty much wrong in your conclusions there too.  True, much of that is foreign (at least 20%), but then again, the argument here is that most of the Egyptian population comes from immigration.
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« Reply #134 on: July 15, 2010, 04:24:05 PM »

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
What, then, does it mean to a Muslim to follow Christ?

It means that he worships God in the same manner that all prophets called for it, including Christ son of Mary. And we uphold the Law that God prescribed to us like he prescribed Laws to previous nations.

Really?

Moses began scripture (Genesis 2):
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18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.


And with this wrote in Deutoronomy (you seem to be fond of Deutoronomy)24:
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1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, 2 and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, 3 and the latter husband dislikes her and writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies, who took her to be his wife, 4 then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring guilt upon the land which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance.

and his successor in prophecy, Jeremiah (3) warns:
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1 "If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, will he return to her? Would not that land be greatly polluted? You have played the harlot with many lovers; and would you return to me? says the LORD. 2 Lift up your eyes to the bare heights, and see! Where have you not been lain with? By the waysides you have sat awaiting lovers like an Arab in the wilderness. You have polluted the land with your vile harlotry

and the prophet Malachi, towards the end of the OT revelation chastises (2:)
Quote
13 And this again you do. You cover the LORD's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor at your hand. 14 You ask, "Why does he not?" Because the LORD was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Has not the one God made and sustained for us the spirit of life? And what does he desire? Godly offspring. So take heed to yourselves, and let none be faithless to the wife of his youth. 16 "For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel, and covering one's garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So take heed to yourselves and do not be faithless." 17 You have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet you say, "How have we wearied him?" By saying, "Every one who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delights in them." Or by asking, "Where is the God of justice?"

And the Author and Finisher of our Faith stated forever on the Sermon on the Mount (as His disciple Matthew records, 5):
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31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
and as He refuted the Pharisees and instructed His Discples, including Matthew(19:)
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3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" 4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" 8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."

But your prophet says (S. 2:229-230):
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Divorce is twice; then honourable retention or setting free kindly. It is not lawful for you to take of what you have given them unless the couple fear they may not maintain God's bounds; if you fear they may not maintain God's bounds, it is no fault in them for her to redeem herself. Those are God's bounds; do not transgress them. Whosoever transgresses the bounds of God -- those are the evildoers. If he divorces her finally, she shall not be lawful to him after that, until she marries another husband. If he divorces her, then it is no fault in them to return to each other, if they suppose that they will maintain God's bounds. Those are God's bounds; He makes them clear unto a people that have knowledge.

and his followers legislated this abomination, including your master, Ibn Malik:
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Yahya related to me from Malik from al-Miswar ibn Rifaa al-Quradhi from az-Zubayr ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr that Rifaa ibn Simwal divorced his wife, Tamima bint Wahb, in the time of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, three times. Then she married Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr and he turned from her and could not consummate the marriage and so he parted from her. Rifaa wanted to marry her again and it was mentioned to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and he forbade him to marry her. He said, "She is not halal for you until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.17)

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Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad that A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said when asked whether it was permissible for a man to marry again a wife he had divorced irrevocably if she had married another man who divorced her before consummating the marriage, "Not until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.18)
and your "most authentic" authority, Bukhari, has this lovely vignette on the matter:
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Narrated 'Ikrima:
Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715)

Note, the beating doesn't bother your prophet in the slightest (for one thing, he allows that).  Nor does the fact that the marriage is unhappy and she wants reconciliation with her first (and according to the Lord, true) husband mean anything. No. She must first have intercorse with a man she hates, and your prophet uses as an excuse that the husband could have sex years ago (since obviously, the sons were not recently conceived).

Nope. Not "upholding the Law that God prescribed to [you] like he prescribed Laws to previous nations." Rather creating an abomination that turns over God's established order for Creation, polluting the land with such harlotry. Such an abomination has passed into proverb in Egypt:
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A thousand lovers rather than one Mostahel.

Many lovers or gallants cause less shame to a woman than one Mostahel. According to the Moslim law a person who has once divorced his wife cannot re-marry her, until she has been married to some other man who becomes her legitimate husband, cohabits with her for one night, and divorces her the next morning; after which the first husband may again possess her as his wife. Such cases are of frequent occurrence—as men in the haste of anger often divorce their wives by the simple expression which cannot be retracted. In order to regain his wife a man hires (at no inconsiderable rate) some peasant, whom he chooses from the ugliest that can be found in the streets; but who must engage effectually to consummate the nuptials. A temporary husband of this kind is called Mostahel, and is generally most disgusting to the wife.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4dUOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA25&dq=%22Mostahel%22&hl=en&ei=v20_TMe8A9PhnQfJnriHBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Mostahel%22&f=false
Does it disgust you?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 04:37:16 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #135 on: July 15, 2010, 11:43:31 PM »

Then sleep soundly.

You are the one making a big fuzz out of it. For us conversion is a normal matter, we don't have to clinch on imaginary statistics. Just a three or four days a go I was buying a book from the library, and there were two people, one asked the lady there for a Spanish-Arabic dictionary but with Latin scrip, she gave him one, then the other guy started speaking and it turned out he's Spanish (you couldn't tell because most people here in Northern Morocco have fair skin and a lot of them are blond, like the Moroccan guy in that situation), he also asked for a Quran, she brought him a Quran with Arabic, Arabic transliteration and Spanish. The guy was so happy, it was just ridiculous!

I'm sure it was.

Btw, I think you meant "bookstore" since you were buying (and the polysemny of "maktabah," and I'm guessing you speak French, hence "librairie." In English library is dar al-kutub/bibliotheque).

I understand it is quite chic now in Spain to claim Moorish blood, just as a few decades everyone denied any ancestors except Visigoths and Romans.  Some I understand embrace Islam.  Much like the fad among blacks in the states to convert to Islam as an "African" thing. Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

As I've said, I've lived in the Muslim world, although not for a number of years.  The media I see, however, show me that things haven't changed.  The number game is standard fare.  With the figures I'ves seen put up, North America should have been thorougly Islamicized long ago.

So you said you are convinced the da'wah is doing fine in Africa.  I have no vested interest in convincing you otherwise.  I know what I know.  The Orthodox Church had not spread as fast nor as far as I'd like, but I want the whole continent baptized by the heir of the preaching of St. Mark (the Christian equivalent of 'Amr b. 'As, except St. Mark came from Africa and came without a sword). So it's all relative to me.

As for normal matter, I usually see quite a hullabaloo at a conversion to Islam, at least when the convert is white.  No problem: we celebrate a baptism, any baptism.  The baptism of former Muslims I've been to were the same as baptism of my children or a convert from other forms of Christianity. Of course we celebrate.
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« Reply #136 on: July 16, 2010, 12:27:40 AM »

Quote
You haven't seen the video?  As for the stuff I saw in the Muslim world, it was constant: the one that sticks in my mind was the Al-Azhar magazine that had the headline "One Million Indonesian Muslims become Christians [lit. Nazarenes]."  To pull stuff up here, I'd have to have a Arabic font compter (unfortunately, this isn't.  I could look in English if I have time later).

You can't use the video itself as an evidence for what it's in the video.

You can check out any of the many, many, many things he claims in it.

I curious, since you are Morroccan, is their any memory of Gen. Muhammad Ufqir and his family? You know that they all (except the general, being killed and all) have been baptized.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 12:28:16 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #137 on: July 16, 2010, 12:28:22 AM »

Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

Are you counting the some blacks that make up the Nation of Islam? Some in the NOI claim some 50,000 members (possibly more or less) and I don't think one can really count them as Muslims. I'm sure Mekki wouldn't since I've never heard of any real Muslim who has. I would say that the majority of black Muslims in America are part of the NOI though I could be wrong.
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« Reply #138 on: July 16, 2010, 02:37:31 AM »

Another personal attack! Good luck with your logical fallacies.  Wink

I apologize if that came off as a personal attack.

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NO. Since God's decree for monogamy was suspended in Israel for an appointed time, I cannot say that the people under the Law committed adultery. Besides, God never said in the Bible that men were allowed to practice polygamy. He simply overlooked the shortcomings and imperfection of the Israelites until Christ's advent.

Then you can say that, since you believe that God forbade polygamy for Christianity, that a Christian can not have a second wife as that would be invalid marriage and thus he would be committing adultery, that is something I can accept. But God did not prescribe such law for us, any marriage up to the fourth is valid and not considered as fornication or adultery.

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NO. The Qur'an NEVER presents Adam and Eve's relation as the perfect pattern of marriage endorsed by God. This is why the Genesis verse that Christ refers to in His Gospel is missing from your scripture. More, your Allah even says he put enmity between Adam and his wife when he banished them from heaven.

Be careful not to express heretical views, if the relationship between Adam and Eve was perfect then she wouldn't have lead him to his and her downfall.

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I am proud that I rejected all the Islamic innovations and inventions going against Christ and the Bible. Praised be the name of Elohim YHWH who saved me from the pit of Islam.

The only thing you seem to be save from is your salvation. What a dreadful safety that is!

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Your Allah disagrees with you.

You are also committing a logical fallacy here again. The question whether a religion is universal or not is dependent on its message, not on the number of its fractions. According to your faulty reasoning, people need a new universal religion now because Islam has many fractions.

No, it's not dependant on fractions, but the fact that Christianity was intended to the Israelites but heretics like Paul spread it to the gentiles lead to the never ending deviation and schisms we're witnessing today.

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Red herring! Torturing is not the same as deceiving. These two notions are not even related. If you think otherwise, you have serious issues. I say that GOD does not deceive. Satan is the deceiver. Your Qur'an teaches otherwise. It says Allah's guile is strong whereas Satan's guile is weak.

Everything that happens to men, be it deceive, torture or else happens by the will of the Almighty for God is omnipotent and nothing happens against his will.

Quote
Another logical fallacy. You are resorting to circular reasoning now.

It is equally absurd to intorduce a supposed absurdity as evidence for an allegation. Today's people have the ENTIRE Qur'an. They have the full text so as to check if their memorization is accurate. We cannot say the same about the unidentified people who lived in Mohammad's time. They had no text to follow and see if their recitation was correct. They also had new material added to their previous recitation. It would be natural for them to make mistakes and confuse similar narratives that varied only in details. I have already given you an example for such inevitable mistakes and variations.

The fact that they lived during the revelation makes it easier for them not harder, they had more time to memorize, just about everyone in the community was an exempler Muslim so most of them were trying to memorize it as well, which means that they could ask just the next guy if they wanted help a bout a passage, not to mention that they lived with the best of man kind himself.

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I want to know in Arabic what those magicians precisely said. Was it so difficult for your Allah to translate their utterance into Arabic? Actually, it is not a translation issue since the difference is only in the order of the two people. Do you mean Egyptians could not say Moses' name first because of their language? This is ridiculous! How could they say Moses' name first in the two other verses then?

Why would you want the precise translation? Perhaps they made an hour speech talking about internal affairs of Egyptian state and society and talked about their families something that can not be recorded in the Quran. They also could've just pointed to Moses and Aaron where were standing next to them and said we believe in their God, or perhaps, Moses and Aaron asked them if they believed in their God and they said yes. The essential is that they believed in the God of Moses and Aaron.

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Your unsubstantiated claims are making an Islamic dance here. You are going for tawaf around some absurd allegations and reaching no place.

There's no dancing there, even before the reign of Uthman, there were Muslims all over the place, and all of them memorized big portions of the Quran if not all of it, this didn't change after he wrote down the Mus'haf.

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We know the writers of the New Testament and the dates of their composition. Attacking Christianity will not save your Islam from critique. Only a fool would think otherwise.

I hope you did, but you don't and you know this.

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Show me the Qur'an that was compiled by Abu Bakr, then I shall consider it a genuine book written by Mohammad's mentor.

The Quran was compiled by all Muslims in their hearts and minds.
 
Dear Mekki,

There is a long standing policy on these forums of NOT calling our Saints "heretics" and other such derogatory terms.

This has not been tolerated in the past on these forums when Christians say such things, let alone when a non-Christian comes here as a guest, and starts calling our Saints heretics. Please refrain from such name calling in the future, and if you wish to discuss St. Paul and his influence on Christianity in a scholarly manner, then please use scholarly terms. But please do not call our Saints "heretics".  Future infractions will result in harsher warnings or actions taken. While this is only your first infraction, you've been posting quite frequently with such absolute certitude that calling Paul a heretic in the manner in which you did, warrants a public warning (known as a "green dot warning") to last 7 days.
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« Reply #139 on: July 16, 2010, 03:57:20 AM »

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NO. The Qur'an NEVER presents Adam and Eve's relation as the perfect pattern of marriage endorsed by God. This is why the Genesis verse that Christ refers to in His Gospel is missing from your scripture. More, your Allah even says he put enmity between Adam and his wife when he banished them from heaven.

Be careful not to express heretical views, if the relationship between Adam and Eve was perfect then she wouldn't have lead him to his and her downfall.
You come to an Orthodox Christian discussion board to spew your anti-Christian message and have the gall to tell us not to express heretical views.  WOW! Shocked Roll Eyes

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Your Allah disagrees with you.

You are also committing a logical fallacy here again. The question whether a religion is universal or not is dependent on its message, not on the number of its fractions. According to your faulty reasoning, people need a new universal religion now because Islam has many fractions.

No, it's not dependant on fractions, but the fact that Christianity was intended to the Israelites but heretics like Paul spread it to the gentiles lead to the never ending deviation and schisms we're witnessing today.
Unless your plan is to get into some really hot water, you're not going to get far on this forum by calling our greatest apostles heretics.  You'd better be very careful, then, whom you call a heretic around here.
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« Reply #140 on: July 16, 2010, 04:15:19 AM »

Huh Could you at least share with us examples of events with which we're familiar? I've never seen this "teaching" before.

You think it was justifiable for the people who disbelieved in Moses based on the fact that no one saw him receiving the revelation?
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« Reply #141 on: July 16, 2010, 04:32:26 AM »

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
What, then, does it mean to a Muslim to follow Christ?

It means that he worships God in the same manner that all prophets called for it, including Christ son of Mary. And we uphold the Law that God prescribed to us like he prescribed Laws to previous nations.

Really?

Moses began scripture (Genesis 2):
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18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.


And with this wrote in Deutoronomy (you seem to be fond of Deutoronomy)24:
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1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, 2 and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, 3 and the latter husband dislikes her and writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies, who took her to be his wife, 4 then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring guilt upon the land which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance.

and his successor in prophecy, Jeremiah (3) warns:
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1 "If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, will he return to her? Would not that land be greatly polluted? You have played the harlot with many lovers; and would you return to me? says the LORD. 2 Lift up your eyes to the bare heights, and see! Where have you not been lain with? By the waysides you have sat awaiting lovers like an Arab in the wilderness. You have polluted the land with your vile harlotry

and the prophet Malachi, towards the end of the OT revelation chastises (2:)
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13 And this again you do. You cover the LORD's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor at your hand. 14 You ask, "Why does he not?" Because the LORD was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Has not the one God made and sustained for us the spirit of life? And what does he desire? Godly offspring. So take heed to yourselves, and let none be faithless to the wife of his youth. 16 "For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel, and covering one's garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So take heed to yourselves and do not be faithless." 17 You have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet you say, "How have we wearied him?" By saying, "Every one who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delights in them." Or by asking, "Where is the God of justice?"

And the Author and Finisher of our Faith stated forever on the Sermon on the Mount (as His disciple Matthew records, 5):
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31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
and as He refuted the Pharisees and instructed His Discples, including Matthew(19:)
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3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" 4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" 8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."

But your prophet says (S. 2:229-230):
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Divorce is twice; then honourable retention or setting free kindly. It is not lawful for you to take of what you have given them unless the couple fear they may not maintain God's bounds; if you fear they may not maintain God's bounds, it is no fault in them for her to redeem herself. Those are God's bounds; do not transgress them. Whosoever transgresses the bounds of God -- those are the evildoers. If he divorces her finally, she shall not be lawful to him after that, until she marries another husband. If he divorces her, then it is no fault in them to return to each other, if they suppose that they will maintain God's bounds. Those are God's bounds; He makes them clear unto a people that have knowledge.

and his followers legislated this abomination, including your master, Ibn Malik:
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Yahya related to me from Malik from al-Miswar ibn Rifaa al-Quradhi from az-Zubayr ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr that Rifaa ibn Simwal divorced his wife, Tamima bint Wahb, in the time of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, three times. Then she married Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr and he turned from her and could not consummate the marriage and so he parted from her. Rifaa wanted to marry her again and it was mentioned to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and he forbade him to marry her. He said, "She is not halal for you until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.17)

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Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad that A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said when asked whether it was permissible for a man to marry again a wife he had divorced irrevocably if she had married another man who divorced her before consummating the marriage, "Not until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.18)
and your "most authentic" authority, Bukhari, has this lovely vignette on the matter:
Quote
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715)

Note, the beating doesn't bother your prophet in the slightest (for one thing, he allows that).  Nor does the fact that the marriage is unhappy and she wants reconciliation with her first (and according to the Lord, true) husband mean anything. No. She must first have intercorse with a man she hates, and your prophet uses as an excuse that the husband could have sex years ago (since obviously, the sons were not recently conceived).

Nope. Not "upholding the Law that God prescribed to [you] like he prescribed Laws to previous nations." Rather creating an abomination that turns over God's established order for Creation, polluting the land with such harlotry. Such an abomination has passed into proverb in Egypt:
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A thousand lovers rather than one Mostahel.

Many lovers or gallants cause less shame to a woman than one Mostahel. According to the Moslim law a person who has once divorced his wife cannot re-marry her, until she has been married to some other man who becomes her legitimate husband, cohabits with her for one night, and divorces her the next morning; after which the first husband may again possess her as his wife. Such cases are of frequent occurrence—as men in the haste of anger often divorce their wives by the simple expression which cannot be retracted. In order to regain his wife a man hires (at no inconsiderable rate) some peasant, whom he chooses from the ugliest that can be found in the streets; but who must engage effectually to consummate the nuptials. A temporary husband of this kind is called Mostahel, and is generally most disgusting to the wife.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4dUOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA25&dq=%22Mostahel%22&hl=en&ei=v20_TMe8A9PhnQfJnriHBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Mostahel%22&f=false
Does it disgust you?


I did say the Law that God prescribed to us. Laws are different for each nation, but when the Law ceases to exist it is then when one should be worried. God allowed the children of Adam to marry among each other, but the law was abolished after that, and laws don't get abrogated because God made a mistake like some weak-minded people think, it was all written before the creation of man, and you believe that the gospel (not to say God) forbade polygamy and marrying a divorced woman, whereas God allowed polygamy both for us and for the Israelites (Exodus 21:10).
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« Reply #142 on: July 16, 2010, 04:49:51 AM »

Huh Could you at least share with us examples of events with which we're familiar? I've never seen this "teaching" before.

You think it was justifiable for the people who disbelieved in Moses based on the fact that no one saw him receiving the revelation?
Huh? Huh According to the Scriptures, what happened on Mt. Sinai happened in front of the entire Hebrew nation.  How can you say, then, that no one saw Moses receive the Law?  This same Hebrew people had already seen God's mighty works in their deliverance from Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, and the providence of the manna and the quail, events that had already marked Moses as a great prophet even before he received the Law.  So I really have no idea what you're talking about.
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« Reply #143 on: July 16, 2010, 04:50:47 AM »

I understand it is quite chic now in Spain to claim Moorish blood, just as a few decades everyone denied any ancestors except Visigoths and Romans.  Some I understand embrace Islam.  Much like the fad among blacks in the states to convert to Islam as an "African" thing. Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

I don't know about that, Spanish folks still have a deep hate to anything moro, they are one of the most xenophobic people in Europe. But what you said is possible, I'm just glad you didn't came up with a theory that he was forced to convert or else he would be massacred.

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So you said you are convinced the da'wah is doing fine in Africa.  I have no vested interest in convincing you otherwise.  I know what I know.  The Orthodox Church had not spread as fast nor as far as I'd like, but I want the whole continent baptized by the heir of the preaching of St. Mark (the Christian equivalent of 'Amr b. 'As, except St. Mark came from Africa and came without a sword). So it's all relative to me.

I have made it quite clear that I'm anti-modern, anti-humanist and most certainly anti-pacifist in doctrine, so you can drop the sword thing, I have nothing against Islam being istablished in certain places through war as it was propagated in other places by wandering individuals and groups though preaching. As I don't have a problem with Christian Roman and Byzantine empires, despite their over the limit brutality in psreading and defending Christianity which was a negative trait of course. I actually have a deep respect for them.

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As for normal matter, I usually see quite a hullabaloo at a conversion to Islam, at least when the convert is white.  No problem: we celebrate a baptism, any baptism.  The baptism of former Muslims I've been to were the same as baptism of my children or a convert from other forms of Christianity. Of course we celebrate.

I don't know what you mean by white, most people here where I live have fairer skin and hair than most Italians for example, but any way, I guarantee it to you that there were no hullabalou, I didn't even tell anyone about this except in here. A friend of mine, who comes from a big (in stature) sherif family in Chefchaouen, told me once about his uncle I guess who is the representative of a traiqa in the city that he gets tons of former Christians as disciples from all over the world  who come to learn the Arabic language, fiqh, tasawwuf and other beneficial sciences, and again I can guarantee it to you that no hullabalou takes place, as no hullabalou happens when thousands of people convert for more utilitarian reasons, like for marriage.
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« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2010, 05:01:01 AM »

You can check out any of the many, many, many things he claims in it.

I think we made the math for that, and it figured!

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I curious, since you are Morroccan, is their any memory of Gen. Muhammad Ufqir and his family? You know that they all (except the general, being killed and all) have been baptized.

I only know about the daughter, but to be completely honest I would be curious if she didn't. Becoming atheist Christians is the only logical conclusion for people like her who try anything they can to become Europeans, who live their entire lives in the country without being able to put together a coherent sentence in Arabic (Moroccan or Classical) or Berber, who never put their forehead on the ground, at least not in prayer.
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« Reply #145 on: July 16, 2010, 05:06:43 AM »

You come to an Orthodox Christian discussion board to spew your anti-Christian message and have the gall to tell us not to express heretical views.  WOW! Shocked Roll Eyes

I'm not telling you to do anything, I'm you humble guest here, and the fact that I can express my view here is due to your appreciated generosity. It's just that mr. Theophilos expresses a lot of clearly unorthodox views, so I'm just trying to keep the discussion on track.

Unless your plan is to get into some really hot water, you're not going to get far on this forum by calling our greatest apostles heretics.  You'd better be very careful, then, whom you call a heretic around here.

I apologize. But that was an indirect way to express my view on the rather dubious role of Paul in Christianity.
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« Reply #146 on: July 16, 2010, 05:08:56 AM »

Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

Are you counting the some blacks that make up the Nation of Islam? Some in the NOI claim some 50,000 members (possibly more or less) and I don't think one can really count them as Muslims. I'm sure Mekki wouldn't since I've never heard of any real Muslim who has. I would say that the majority of black Muslims in America are part of the NOI though I could be wrong.

They have almost all converted to orthodox Islam, alhamdulillah. They moved from darkness to another dorakness to blinding light.
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« Reply #147 on: July 16, 2010, 05:29:08 AM »

You come to an Orthodox Christian discussion board to spew your anti-Christian message and have the gall to tell us not to express heretical views.  WOW! Shocked Roll Eyes

I'm not telling you to do anything, I'm you humble guest here, and the fact that I can express my view here is due to your appreciated generosity. It's just that mr. Theophilos expresses a lot of clearly unorthodox views, so I'm just trying to keep the discussion on track.
1.  If he's no longer Muslim, why cry that his views are unorthodox?  I think he's very happy he no longer toes the line of Islamic "orthodoxy".
2.  If you're not Christian, then who are you to even tell us what orthodox Christian belief is?
3.  The whole issue of this thread since you joined in has been the question of what the truth is.  Since, by definition, orthodoxy is based on truth, if we can't agree on what the truth is, then we certainly can't agree on a definition of what is orthodox and what is unorthodox.  Your definition of orthodoxy and our definition of orthodoxy are two totally different bodies of doctrine.

Unless your plan is to get into some really hot water, you're not going to get far on this forum by calling our greatest apostles heretics.  You'd better be very careful, then, whom you call a heretic around here.

I apologize. But that was an indirect way to express my view on the rather dubious role of Paul in Christianity.
Dubious role?  How so?
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« Reply #148 on: July 16, 2010, 08:08:58 AM »


I apologize if that came off as a personal attack.

It sounded so, but apology accepted.

Then you can say that, since you believe that God forbade polygamy for Christianity, that a Christian can not have a second wife as that would be invalid marriage and thus he would be committing adultery, that is something I can accept. But God did not prescribe such law for us, any marriage up to the fourth is valid and not considered as fornication or adultery.

God did not give you another Law than Christ's statements. It was Mohammad who fabricated his scripture and imposed his rules on you without God's consent.

Be careful not to express heretical views, if the relationship between Adam and Eve was perfect then she wouldn't have lead him to his and her downfall.

I did not say the relation between Adam and Eve were perfect, but I do not also believe that God put enmity between Adam and Eve at the time of their banishment from Heaven. Imperfect or impaired relations do not necessarily require enmity.

The only thing you seem to be save from is your salvation. What a dreadful safety that is!

You sound like your pagan prophet.  laugh

No, it's not dependant on fractions, but the fact that Christianity was intended to the Israelites but heretics like Paul spread it to the gentiles lead to the never ending deviation and schisms we're witnessing today.

What you are saying now is not relevant to what you said previously on this issue.

Muslims suffer from a psychological sickness: Paulophobia.

Your Allah seems unaware of Paul and his actions though. He once said Christ's disciples prevailed the party of the disbelievers. That makes a lot of sense when we remember how God and Christ supported Paul in the spread of the Gospel to the entire world.

An important note: Your scripture says Jesus and His mother were made a sign for MANKIND, not only for Israel. Thus, the Qur'an designates not only Mohammad, but also Jesus as a mercy to humanity. Read your scripture better.


Everything that happens to men, be it deceive, torture or else happens by the will of the Almighty for God is omnipotent and nothing happens against his will.

Your Allah may be deceiving you now by asking you to follow Mohammad. How do you know he will not say on the Day of Judgment: "Surprise! I fooled you guys when I made Mohammad a prophet. This was a test that all Muslims failed".  laugh

The fact that they lived during the revelation makes it easier for them not harder, they had more time to memorize, just about everyone in the community was an exempler Muslim so most of them were trying to memorize it as well, which means that they could ask just the next guy if they wanted help a bout a passage, not to mention that they lived with the best of man kind himself.

NO. It is easier to memorize a fixed and concrete text rather than an abstract one in progress.

Islamic history rebuts your allegation. There arose many problems concerning the reading of certain verses after Mohammad's death. More, there was no one to check the accuracy of the recitation after Mohammad's death. How can you know for sure that those people did not make deliberate or accidental changes to the particular text in their memory? There was no standard document when Mohammad died.

Above all, the Qur'an contains textual variations, which proves that the memorization process was not smooth and perfect.

Why would you want the precise translation? Perhaps they made an hour speech talking about internal affairs of Egyptian state and society and talked about their families something that can not be recorded in the Quran. They also could've just pointed to Moses and Aaron where were standing next to them and said we believe in their God, or perhaps, Moses and Aaron asked them if they believed in their God and they said yes. The essential is that they believed in the God of Moses and Aaron.

I do not want maybes. If the Qur'an is truly a revelation and dictation from your Allah, I naturally expect it to have no textual variations and anomalies.

I am repeating my question: Did the Egyptians say "Lord of Aaron and Moses" or "Lord of Moses and Aaron"? Was it difficult or impossible for your Allah to get the precise order of that sequence and reveal it to you in the Qur'an?  Roll Eyes


There's no dancing there, even before the reign of Uthman, there were Muslims all over the place, and all of them memorized big portions of the Quran if not all of it, this didn't change after he wrote down the Mus'haf.

Then why was there a need for a textual arrangement? Why did Uthman deem it necessary to standardize the Qur'an before multiplying its copies?

I hope you did, but you don't and you know this.
Grin


The Quran was compiled by all Muslims in their hearts and minds.

Wrong answer! I did not ask who it was compiled by. My question is: where is the Qur'an of Abu Bakr's time? Give it to me for a comparison.
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« Reply #149 on: July 16, 2010, 09:32:45 AM »

You can check out any of the many, many, many things he claims in it.

I think we made the math for that, and it figured!

Not with what he stated. I'm curious: what number do you cliam for Christians converting to Islam every year.

Quote
I curious, since you are Morroccan, is their any memory of Gen. Muhammad Ufqir and his family? You know that they all (except the general, being killed and all) have been baptized.

I only know about the daughter, but to be completely honest I would be curious if she didn't. Becoming atheist Christians is the only logical conclusion for people like her who try anything they can to become Europeans, who live their entire lives in the country without being able to put together a coherent sentence in Arabic (Moroccan or Classical) or Berber, who never put their forehead on the ground, at least not in prayer.
[/quote]
My understanding was that they were Berbers.  They don't have a standard, as far as I know, and many adopt French, rather than Arabic.  I'm not crazy about that, but I can't fault their reasoning.  I've never heard her speak (have you?), so I can't judge her abilities in Classical Arabic (I don't understand Morroccan and don't know Berber).

What do you insinuate she puts her forehead to the ground for?

As for Eurabia, again, the stories (with some truth in them) run in the Muslim/Arab media, Europe should be Muslim already. So what would be the attraction for an atheist to be baptized to become European?

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« Reply #150 on: July 16, 2010, 09:51:34 AM »

None of those follows Christ. May the Almighty guide us all.
What, then, does it mean to a Muslim to follow Christ?

It means that he worships God in the same manner that all prophets called for it, including Christ son of Mary. And we uphold the Law that God prescribed to us like he prescribed Laws to previous nations.

Really?

Moses began scripture (Genesis 2):
Quote
18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.


And with this wrote in Deutoronomy (you seem to be fond of Deutoronomy)24:
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1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, 2 and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, 3 and the latter husband dislikes her and writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies, who took her to be his wife, 4 then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring guilt upon the land which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance.

and his successor in prophecy, Jeremiah (3) warns:
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1 "If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, will he return to her? Would not that land be greatly polluted? You have played the harlot with many lovers; and would you return to me? says the LORD. 2 Lift up your eyes to the bare heights, and see! Where have you not been lain with? By the waysides you have sat awaiting lovers like an Arab in the wilderness. You have polluted the land with your vile harlotry

and the prophet Malachi, towards the end of the OT revelation chastises (2:)
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13 And this again you do. You cover the LORD's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor at your hand. 14 You ask, "Why does he not?" Because the LORD was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Has not the one God made and sustained for us the spirit of life? And what does he desire? Godly offspring. So take heed to yourselves, and let none be faithless to the wife of his youth. 16 "For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel, and covering one's garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So take heed to yourselves and do not be faithless." 17 You have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet you say, "How have we wearied him?" By saying, "Every one who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delights in them." Or by asking, "Where is the God of justice?"

And the Author and Finisher of our Faith stated forever on the Sermon on the Mount (as His disciple Matthew records, 5):
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31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
and as He refuted the Pharisees and instructed His Discples, including Matthew(19:)
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3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" 4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" 8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."

But your prophet says (S. 2:229-230):
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Divorce is twice; then honourable retention or setting free kindly. It is not lawful for you to take of what you have given them unless the couple fear they may not maintain God's bounds; if you fear they may not maintain God's bounds, it is no fault in them for her to redeem herself. Those are God's bounds; do not transgress them. Whosoever transgresses the bounds of God -- those are the evildoers. If he divorces her finally, she shall not be lawful to him after that, until she marries another husband. If he divorces her, then it is no fault in them to return to each other, if they suppose that they will maintain God's bounds. Those are God's bounds; He makes them clear unto a people that have knowledge.

and his followers legislated this abomination, including your master, Ibn Malik:
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Yahya related to me from Malik from al-Miswar ibn Rifaa al-Quradhi from az-Zubayr ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr that Rifaa ibn Simwal divorced his wife, Tamima bint Wahb, in the time of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, three times. Then she married Abd ar-Rahman ibn az-Zubayr and he turned from her and could not consummate the marriage and so he parted from her. Rifaa wanted to marry her again and it was mentioned to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and he forbade him to marry her. He said, "She is not halal for you until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.17)

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Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad that A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said when asked whether it was permissible for a man to marry again a wife he had divorced irrevocably if she had married another man who divorced her before consummating the marriage, "Not until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse." (Malik's Muwatta, Book 28, Number 28.7.18)
and your "most authentic" authority, Bukhari, has this lovely vignette on the matter:
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Narrated 'Ikrima:
Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715)

Note, the beating doesn't bother your prophet in the slightest (for one thing, he allows that).  Nor does the fact that the marriage is unhappy and she wants reconciliation with her first (and according to the Lord, true) husband mean anything. No. She must first have intercorse with a man she hates, and your prophet uses as an excuse that the husband could have sex years ago (since obviously, the sons were not recently conceived).

Nope. Not "upholding the Law that God prescribed to [you] like he prescribed Laws to previous nations." Rather creating an abomination that turns over God's established order for Creation, polluting the land with such harlotry. Such an abomination has passed into proverb in Egypt:
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A thousand lovers rather than one Mostahel.

Many lovers or gallants cause less shame to a woman than one Mostahel. According to the Moslim law a person who has once divorced his wife cannot re-marry her, until she has been married to some other man who becomes her legitimate husband, cohabits with her for one night, and divorces her the next morning; after which the first husband may again possess her as his wife. Such cases are of frequent occurrence—as men in the haste of anger often divorce their wives by the simple expression which cannot be retracted. In order to regain his wife a man hires (at no inconsiderable rate) some peasant, whom he chooses from the ugliest that can be found in the streets; but who must engage effectually to consummate the nuptials. A temporary husband of this kind is called Mostahel, and is generally most disgusting to the wife.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4dUOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA25&dq=%22Mostahel%22&hl=en&ei=v20_TMe8A9PhnQfJnriHBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Mostahel%22&f=false
Does it disgust you?


I did say the Law that God prescribed to us. Laws are different for each nation, but when the Law ceases to exist it is then when one should be worried. God allowed the children of Adam to marry among each other, but the law was abolished after that, and laws don't get abrogated because God made a mistake like some weak-minded people think, it was all written before the creation of man, and you believe that the gospel (not to say God) forbade polygamy and marrying a divorced woman, whereas God allowed polygamy both for us and for the Israelites (Exodus 21:10).

In other words, it doesn't disgust you.  Just want to be clear.

Search the OT: each and every single case of polygamy it shows its ugly side, and how bad things result.  The idea is to learn from other's mistakes, and not repeat them. Btw, the verse you cite is dealing with slave girls, and the law that if a master slept with one, he had to treat her as a full fledged wife, and could not sell her, and if replaced her with another wife, he had to set her free, with no payment. A far, far cry from what goes on in Islam.  I have to say I was somewhat distressed when reading the biographies of prominent Muslims, how their mothers, over and over, were slave girls.

God is not al-Jabbaar "the compeler."  You are free to do as you like. If someone wants to marry his sister, claiming God allowed Cain and Abel to do that (and Abraham), he is free to do so.  He is just not free to claim God's seal of approval.

You claim God abolished prophethood after the 7th century, yet Baha'ullah came from among you, claimed prophethood, and also banned polygamy.  Why should I take Muhammad's word over Baha'ullah, in particular as I know the Lord final statement on the matter?
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« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2010, 10:01:46 AM »

Huh Could you at least share with us examples of events with which we're familiar? I've never seen this "teaching" before.

You think it was justifiable for the people who disbelieved in Moses based on the fact that no one saw him receiving the revelation?
Huh? Huh According to the Scriptures, what happened on Mt. Sinai happened in front of the entire Hebrew nation.  How can you say, then, that no one saw Moses receive the Law?  This same Hebrew people had already seen God's mighty works in their deliverance from Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, and the providence of the manna and the quail, events that had already marked Moses as a great prophet even before he received the Law.  So I really have no idea what you're talking about.
LOL. He doesn't either.  This is the problem with the "Abrahamic Religions" idea in promoting a Judeo-Christian-Muslim culture, the last one doesn't have the same ideas as the first two.
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« Reply #152 on: July 16, 2010, 10:14:26 AM »


No, it's not dependant on fractions, but the fact that Christianity was intended to the Israelites but heretics like Paul spread it to the gentiles lead to the never ending deviation and schisms we're witnessing today.


Who told you that Christianity was only intended for the Israelites?

Just a few references....

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.




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« Reply #153 on: July 16, 2010, 10:32:02 AM »

I understand it is quite chic now in Spain to claim Moorish blood, just as a few decades everyone denied any ancestors except Visigoths and Romans.  Some I understand embrace Islam.  Much like the fad among blacks in the states to convert to Islam as an "African" thing. Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

I don't know about that, Spanish folks still have a deep hate to anything moro, they are one of the most xenophobic people in Europe. But what you said is possible, I'm just glad you didn't came up with a theory that he was forced to convert or else he would be massacred.

I don't have any facts to speculate on. At first glance, having lived in the Muslim world and seen European-Local interaction, my first thought was the Morroccan partner prevailed on the European, since the Quran is available in Spain.

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So you said you are convinced the da'wah is doing fine in Africa.  I have no vested interest in convincing you otherwise.  I know what I know.  The Orthodox Church had not spread as fast nor as far as I'd like, but I want the whole continent baptized by the heir of the preaching of St. Mark (the Christian equivalent of 'Amr b. 'As, except St. Mark came from Africa and came without a sword). So it's all relative to me.

I have made it quite clear that I'm anti-modern, anti-humanist and most certainly anti-pacifist in doctrine, so you can drop the sword thing,


LOL. The idea is that you drop the sword thing. I have other instructions. John 18:11.

The problem of appealing to the sword to spread your faith, is that it depends on your grip on the sword. It also calls into question the motives of your converts," the issue which you supposedly say is most important in Islam, hadith #1.

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I have nothing against Islam being istablished in certain places through war as it was propagated in other places by wandering individuals and groups though preaching. As I don't have a problem with Christian Roman and Byzantine empires, despite their over the limit brutality in psreading and defending Christianity which was a negative trait of course. I actually have a deep respect for them.

Enough to believe fables of Roman atrocities, the "defensive" nature of Tabuk (where your prophet failed to engage the Romans, and fell on extorting jizyah from the local tribes instead), etc. while ignoring the conduct of the Muslims, which in its more bizarre moments included human sacrifice (e.g. Muhammad b. Marwan in Armenia and Asia Minor).

I do have to thank you: non-believers trying to pull the Church down often ask what this difference between Christ and Muhammad.  Any excess in spreading and defending Christendom dishonors the Lord, and we are ashamed of them.  You honor your prophet by the sword.

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Quote
As for normal matter, I usually see quite a hullabaloo at a conversion to Islam, at least when the convert is white.  No problem: we celebrate a baptism, any baptism.  The baptism of former Muslims I've been to were the same as baptism of my children or a convert from other forms of Christianity. Of course we celebrate.

I don't know what you mean by white, most people here where I live have fairer skin and hair than most Italians for example, but any way, I guarantee it to you that there were no hullabalou, I didn't even tell anyone about this except in here. A friend of mine, who comes from a big (in stature) sherif family in Chefchaouen, told me once about his uncle I guess who is the representative of a traiqa in the city that he gets tons of former Christians as disciples from all over the world  who come to learn the Arabic language, fiqh, tasawwuf and other beneficial sciences, and again I can guarantee it to you that no hullabalou takes place, as no hullabalou happens when thousands of people convert for more utilitarian reasons, like for marriage.
I once remember being "corrected" by a Morrocan (who wanted to convert me for marriage) that it wasnt' simply shahadah to convert. You had to have the Quran, the witnesses, the sheikh, etc. etc. etc.

I can only vouch from the ones I've seen.
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« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2010, 10:54:17 AM »

Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

Are you counting the some blacks that make up the Nation of Islam? Some in the NOI claim some 50,000 members (possibly more or less) and I don't think one can really count them as Muslims. I'm sure Mekki wouldn't since I've never heard of any real Muslim who has. I would say that the majority of black Muslims in America are part of the NOI though I could be wrong.

They have almost all converted to orthodox Islam, alhamdulillah. They moved from darkness to another dorakness to blinding light.

Are you sure? I've heard them claim that they have around 50,000 or more followers.
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« Reply #155 on: July 16, 2010, 10:58:12 AM »

Not with what he stated. I'm curious: what number do you cliam for Christians converting to Islam every year.

I was talking about the math we did with dividing the number of Christians i the cotinent on the number of years that missionary work was active there and getting a number close to 6 million.

Probably the guy considered that every one that converted to Christianity was a potentianl Muslim convert, se it's one that the Nation lost, which is evidenced by him talking about Islam and Christianity being the noly religions in Africa.

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My understanding was that they were Berbers.  They don't have a standard, as far as I know, and many adopt French, rather than Arabic.  I'm not crazy about that, but I can't fault their reasoning.  I've never heard her speak (have you?), so I can't judge her abilities in Classical Arabic (I don't understand Morroccan and don't know Berber).

It has nothing to dowith being of arabi-speaking or Berber-speaking ancestry, there's just a type of rich people living in this country in complete detachment from their environment, like I said, a lot of them can't even speak Arabic or Berber properly. Religious and cultural identity has nothing to do with language here, for example: Here in the Rig range of mountains where I live, there's the Arabic speaking Jbala in the west and the Berber speaking Rouafa in the east, both are extremely close to each other in culture and different from other Arabic-speaking and Berber-speaking groups in the country though they share language with them. These Rouafa are also the most conservative people in the country. May God benefit us from them.

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What do you insinuate she puts her forehead to the ground for?

I was talking about prayer.

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As for Eurabia, again, the stories (with some truth in them) run in the Muslim/Arab media, Europe should be Muslim already. So what would be the attraction for an atheist to be baptized to become European?

I don't watch the media you're talking about, but anyway, those people I spoke of are modern European in culture, which means religion is the very least of theire concerns, but since most Europeans are nominally Chrsitian, it wouldn't be a very big suprize if one of them converted just to severe any links he has with non-Western culture. The point is, she will never be a saint of the Catholic Church and you will never see her in church.

[/quote]
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« Reply #156 on: July 16, 2010, 11:02:00 AM »

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I was talking about prayer.

Oh no you weren't  Cheesy 
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« Reply #157 on: July 16, 2010, 11:07:55 AM »

Search the OT: each and every single case of polygamy it shows its ugly side, and how bad things result.  The idea is to learn from other's mistakes, and not repeat them. Btw, the verse you cite is dealing with slave girls, and the law that if a master slept with one, he had to treat her as a full fledged wife, and could not sell her, and if replaced her with another wife, he had to set her free, with no payment. A far, far cry from what goes on in Islam.  I have to say I was somewhat distressed when reading the biographies of prominent Muslims, how their mothers, over and over, were slave girls.

I'm not saying that polygamy is preferred to monogamy, we're just discussing your claim that Islam broke came with a law that it would be inconceivalbe for God to make, which is allowing polygamy.
If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self- restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (the holiest of books 4:128-129)

The Prophet's marriages are by consensus not a Sunna.

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God is not al-Jabbaar "the compeler." 

So you believe that if God wills something and man wills another thing that God's will can be broken? We believe that man has the freedom of choice but nothing happens against the will of the Omnipotent.

Quote
You claim God abolished prophethood after the 7th century, yet Baha'ullah came from among you, claimed prophethood, and also banned polygamy.  Why should I take Muhammad's word over Baha'ullah, in particular as I know the Lord final statement on the matter?

Because, without looking at the religion itself, everything that Baha'ism can claim to be is already fulfilled by Islam, which is a universal Religion that calls for the worship of God in the Prophetic tradition while being able to maintain its purity and integrity as it spread and went on in time.
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« Reply #158 on: July 16, 2010, 11:25:02 AM »

Blacks make up 25% of the Muslims in the US (who make up only 1% of the Black population of the US). There are plenty who convert for more substantial reasons as well.

Are you counting the some blacks that make up the Nation of Islam? Some in the NOI claim some 50,000 members (possibly more or less) and I don't think one can really count them as Muslims. I'm sure Mekki wouldn't since I've never heard of any real Muslim who has. I would say that the majority of black Muslims in America are part of the NOI though I could be wrong.

They have almost all converted to orthodox Islam, alhamdulillah. They moved from darkness to another dorakness to blinding light.

Are you sure? I've heard them claim that they have around 50,000 or more followers.

Warith Deen Muhammad, Elijah's son, disbanded the Nation and took those who would follow him into mainstream Islam, recognizing them into American Society of Muslims and founding Mosque Cares for the propagation of Islam.  They have a very traditional, very prominent, mosque just blocks of Farrakhan's house.  Oddly, his following still celebrate "Savior's Day," the birthday of their god (yes, they believe in incarnation) Wallace Fard Muhammad, but reinterpreting it as a celebration of the history of the Nation of Islam and Elijah Muhammad.

Farrakhan orgainzed the remnants and built it up.  The New Black Panther Party (the ones involved in the Voter intimidation suit that the Holder's Department won, and then he dropped the suit), are an offshoot/auxiliary, with Khalid Abdul Muhammad (whose name means, btw "worshipper of Muhammad") and Malik Shabazz Zulu (how original). So it could have 50,000 sympathizers.  Active members, probably not. But even with that, with about 375,560 black muslims in the US, they would still be a minority.
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« Reply #159 on: July 16, 2010, 11:48:18 AM »

Search the OT: each and every single case of polygamy it shows its ugly side, and how bad things result.  The idea is to learn from other's mistakes, and not repeat them. Btw, the verse you cite is dealing with slave girls, and the law that if a master slept with one, he had to treat her as a full fledged wife, and could not sell her, and if replaced her with another wife, he had to set her free, with no payment. A far, far cry from what goes on in Islam.  I have to say I was somewhat distressed when reading the biographies of prominent Muslims, how their mothers, over and over, were slave girls.

I'm not saying that polygamy is preferred to monogamy, we're just discussing your claim that Islam broke came with a law that it would be inconceivalbe for God to make, which is allowing polygamy.

No, the original post was about the idea that before a reconciliation can take place, the wife has to be whored out first. I wouldn't dishonor polygamy by calling that polygamy.  And yes, Islam came up with that law, because it contradicts the whole of the OT and NT.

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If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self- restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (the holiest of books 4:128-129)
Prostitution as holy. Both OT and NT did away with that idea.

So, why isn't cruelty a grounds for divorce for the woman? Btw, by your "holiest of books" you are never able to be fari and just as between woman, so your favorite verse, Exodus 21:10-11, precludes you from polygamy.

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The Prophet's marriages are by consensus not a Sunna.

Yes, his sunnah "do as I say, not as I do."

Quote
Quote
God is not al-Jabbaar "the compeler."

So you believe that if God wills something and man wills another thing that God's will can be broken? We believe that man has the freedom of choice but nothing happens against the will of the Omnipotent.

Explain the Fall then.

God created man in His Image and Likeness.  Free will is part of that, and God doesn't interfer with it.  The Crucifixion is the proof of that.  Coming down from the Cross or summoned legions of angels was easy.  Enduring the Cross and choosing to drink the cup, that was divine.

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You claim God abolished prophethood after the 7th century, yet Baha'ullah came from among you, claimed prophethood, and also banned polygamy.  Why should I take Muhammad's word over Baha'ullah, in particular as I know the Lord final statement on the matter?

Because, without looking at the religion itself, everything that Baha'ism can claim to be is already fulfilled by Islam,[/quote]

and as we Christians have no need of Islam for that reason (among others), what is your basis to deny Bahaa'ullaah? Or for that matter, Guru Nanak Dev or Joseph Smith Jr.?

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which is a universal Religion that calls for the worship of God in the Prophetic tradition while being able to maintain its purity and integrity as it spread and went on in time.
LOL. Pure Islam, where's that?

Intergrity: you have been killing each other at least since the time of 'Uthman.  In the geographic center  of your world, a Shi'ite dominiation cuts from Lebanon and Syria, through Iraq (with a substantial undercurrent in the Gult) and Iran into Pakistan, whose founder was Shi'ite. Come to think of it, the origns of your own state is Shi'ite as well.
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« Reply #160 on: July 16, 2010, 11:59:58 AM »

What do you insinuate she puts her forehead to the ground for?

I was talking about prayer.

No, you were specifically not talking about prayer.

, who never put their forehead on the ground, at least not in prayer.

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As for Eurabia, again, the stories (with some truth in them) run in the Muslim/Arab media, Europe should be Muslim already. So what would be the attraction for an atheist to be baptized to become European?

I don't watch the media you're talking about, but anyway, those people I spoke of are modern European in culture, which means religion is the very least of theire concerns, but since most Europeans are nominally Chrsitian, it wouldn't be a very big suprize if one of them converted just to severe any links he has with non-Western culture. The point is, she will never be a saint of the Catholic Church and you will never see her in church.
Again, I am amazed at your ability to read hearts.

The Apostle Paul started out as the great persecutor of the Church, and ended up as her pillar.  Christians have a firm faith in redemption. Pity your Islam does not.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #161 on: July 16, 2010, 12:14:29 PM »

Beware! You are calling hedonistic the man who never missed a prayer (as hard as it is to do so concerning Islamic canonical prayer), not only that but he spent hours upon hours in non-canonical prayer every day. The man who spent days upon days eating nothing but rough bread, the man who never had fancy clothings nor build a mansion for himself even though he could have anything he wanted as was the ruler of all Arabia.

You might find stuff like that impressive but GOD does not:

5 And when you pray, you should not be as the hypocrites, who love to stand in the synagogues and on the corners of the marketplaces to pray, to be seen by men. And truly I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, enter your room and close your door and pray to your Father, who is in secret, and your Father, who sees in secret, will repay you openly. 7 And when you are praying, you should not talk idly as the heathens [do], for they think that they are heard by much speaking. 8 Therefore, do not imitate them, for your Father knows what is needed by you before you ask him. (Matthew 6:5-8)

16 Now when you fast, you should not be sad as the hypocrites, for they distort their faces so that they may be seen by men that they are fasting. And truly I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, wash your face and anoint your head, 18 so that [the fact that] you are fasting may not be seen by men, but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:16-18)

Also GOD emphatically states that good deeds do not atone for sins, and that worship no matter how sincere means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to Him if the person offering worship does evil and does not repent of the evil things they do:

11 “What need have I of all your sacrifices?” Says YHWH. “I am sated with burnt offerings of rams, And suet of fatlings, And blood of bulls; And I have no delight In lambs and he-goats.  12 That you come to appear before ME -- Who asked that of you? Trample MY courts  13 no more; Bringing oblations is futile, Incense is offensive to ME. New moon and sabbath, Proclaiming of solemnities, Assemblies with iniquity, I cannot abide.  14 Your new moons and fixed seasons Fill ME with loathing; They are become a burden to ME, I cannot endure them.  15 And when you lift up your hands, I will turn MY eyes away from you; Though you pray at length, I will not listen. Your hands are stained with crime – 16 Wash yourselves clean; Put your evil doings Away from My sight. Cease to do evil;  17 Learn to do good. Devote yourselves to justice; Aid the wronged. Uphold the rights of the orphan; Defend the cause of the widow. (Isaiah 1:11-17)

In fact GOD says that when a sinner does not repent, his good deeds are not even acknowledged:

20 And when a righteous man abandons his righteousness, and commits a crime, and I shall bring punishment before him, he shall die, because you did not warn him: he shall die in his sins, because his righteous deeds shall not be remembered; but a reckoning for his blood will I require from you. (Ezekiel 3:20)

Quote from: Mekki
Everything that happens to men, be it deceive, torture or else happens by the will of the Almighty for God is omnipotent and nothing happens against his will.

So then Mekki what is the point of Judgement Day? How can your Allah hold people accountable for things that in reality he willed? What is his basis for doing so, if ultimately he is the one who made the people do the things that they did? Or maybe the real purpose of Judgement Day is for humanity put your Allah on trial, because he has actually given each of us the grounds to point our fingers and say to his face: “YOU made me do it!” Grin

Quote from: Theophilos78
Your Allah may be deceiving you now by asking you to follow Mohammad. How do you know he will not say on the Day of Judgment: "Surprise! I fooled you guys when I made Mohammad a prophet. This was a test that all Muslims failed".

Hehe, as much as Muslims may not want to admit it their theology actually allows for this sort of outcome!


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« Reply #162 on: July 16, 2010, 12:43:29 PM »

No, the original post was about the idea that before a reconciliation can take place, the wife has to be whored out first. I wouldn't dishonor polygamy by calling that polygamy.  And yes, Islam came up with that law, because it contradicts the whole of the OT and NT.

From what I saw as a kid on TV, it seems that that is a problem in Egypt, or at least a hot topic for TV shows, so I see your good will in trying to narrate even as you them, but the fact is, dear kind sir, is that this practice is frawned upon by knoweldgeable people. You can't pull tricks on the Law, you can't wear a wig to cover your hear and you can't bring someone to marry a woman and then divorce so you can marry her again.

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Yes, his sunnah "do as I say, not as I do.

If people were to do as the best of Creation did you  would see a lot more Muslims living in extreme poverty, wearing simple clothes and and having  simple houses even when they can acquire all the riches they want, you'd see more Muslims praying for long hour during the day and nights, people who are firm in face of the enemy in the battle field but kind to any one else, Muslim or not, and always smiling. You'd see a lot of Mosesian and Christian people.

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God created man in His Image and Likeness.  Free will is part of that, and God doesn't interfer with it.

Why do you pray for God for your bread then? Everything that happens in the heavens and the earth happens by the will of God. But even with this doctrine of you, what's you objection on the Al-Jabbar name? Do you believe that if God wanted something to happen that there can be anything that would intervene with his will? Keep in mind that God gave us free will.

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and as we Christians have no need of Islam for that reason (among others), what is your basis to deny Bahaa'ullaah? Or for that matter, Guru Nanak Dev or Joseph Smith Jr.?

I think we've talked more than enough about why Islam and not Christianity.

Quote
Intergrity: you have been killing each other at least since the time of 'Uthman.  In the geographic center  of your world, a Shi'ite dominiation cuts from Lebanon and Syria, through Iraq (with a substantial undercurrent in the Gult) and Iran into Pakistan, whose founder was Shi'ite. Come to think of it, the origns of your own state is Shi'ite as well.

Hating kuffar may very well hate, but 90% alhamdulillah.
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« Reply #163 on: July 16, 2010, 12:49:05 PM »

Beware! You are calling hedonistic the man who never missed a prayer (as hard as it is to do so concerning Islamic canonical prayer), not only that but he spent hours upon hours in non-canonical prayer every day. The man who spent days upon days eating nothing but rough bread, the man who never had fancy clothings nor build a mansion for himself even though he could have anything he wanted as was the ruler of all Arabia.

You might find stuff like that impressive but GOD does not:

5 And when you pray, you should not be as the hypocrites, who love to stand in the synagogues and on the corners of the marketplaces to pray, to be seen by men. And truly I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, enter your room and close your door and pray to your Father, who is in secret, and your Father, who sees in secret, will repay you openly. 7 And when you are praying, you should not talk idly as the heathens [do], for they think that they are heard by much speaking. 8 Therefore, do not imitate them, for your Father knows what is needed by you before you ask him. (Matthew 6:5-8)

16 Now when you fast, you should not be sad as the hypocrites, for they distort their faces so that they may be seen by men that they are fasting. And truly I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, wash your face and anoint your head, 18 so that [the fact that] you are fasting may not be seen by men, but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:16-18)

Also GOD emphatically states that good deeds do not atone for sins, and that worship no matter how sincere means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to Him if the person offering worship does evil and does not repent of the evil things they do:

11 “What need have I of all your sacrifices?” Says YHWH. “I am sated with burnt offerings of rams, And suet of fatlings, And blood of bulls; And I have no delight In lambs and he-goats.  12 That you come to appear before ME -- Who asked that of you? Trample MY courts  13 no more; Bringing oblations is futile, Incense is offensive to ME. New moon and sabbath, Proclaiming of solemnities, Assemblies with iniquity, I cannot abide.  14 Your new moons and fixed seasons Fill ME with loathing; They are become a burden to ME, I cannot endure them.  15 And when you lift up your hands, I will turn MY eyes away from you; Though you pray at length, I will not listen. Your hands are stained with crime – 16 Wash yourselves clean; Put your evil doings Away from My sight. Cease to do evil;  17 Learn to do good. Devote yourselves to justice; Aid the wronged. Uphold the rights of the orphan; Defend the cause of the widow. (Isaiah 1:11-17)

In fact GOD says that when a sinner does not repent, his good deeds are not even acknowledged:

20 And when a righteous man abandons his righteousness, and commits a crime, and I shall bring punishment before him, he shall die, because you did not warn him: he shall die in his sins, because his righteous deeds shall not be remembered; but a reckoning for his blood will I require from you. (Ezekiel 3:20)

The stories aboug the Prophet's praying habits are often narrated by our mother Aisha as he prayed most of the time in the secret of his home, often under the cover of night.

Quote
So then Mekki what is the point of Judgement Day? How can your Allah hold people accountable for things that in reality he willed? What is his basis for doing so, if ultimately he is the one who made the people do the things that they did? Or maybe the real purpose of Judgement Day is for humanity put your Allah on trial, because he has actually given each of us the grounds to point our fingers and say to his face: “YOU made me do it!” Grin

Man is given the freedom to do good or evil, but whatever he does never happens against the will of God. Quote simple really.
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« Reply #164 on: July 16, 2010, 12:52:03 PM »

OK, nice folks, we have a multi-day hiking trip to plan and make, so I won't be posting here for the three coming days. May be I'll even post some picture here  Wink

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« Reply #165 on: July 16, 2010, 01:40:16 PM »

No, the original post was about the idea that before a reconciliation can take place, the wife has to be whored out first. I wouldn't dishonor polygamy by calling that polygamy.  And yes, Islam came up with that law, because it contradicts the whole of the OT and NT.

From what I saw as a kid on TV, it seems that that is a problem in Egypt, or at least a hot topic for TV shows, so I see your good will in trying to narrate even as you them, but the fact is, dear kind sir, is that this practice is frawned upon by knoweldgeable people. You can't pull tricks on the Law, you can't wear a wig to cover your hear and you can't bring someone to marry a woman and then divorce so you can marry her again.

Frowned on or not, it happens. And it is far, far, far from limited to Egypt: shari'ah is supposed to be universal.

What were you watching as a kid?
Quote
Quote
Yes, his sunnah "do as I say, not as I do."

If people were to do as the best of Creation did you  would see a lot more Muslims living in extreme poverty, wearing simple clothes and and having  simple houses even when they can acquire all the riches they want, you'd see more Muslims praying for long hour during the day and nights, people who are firm in face of the enemy in the battle field but kind to any one else, Muslim or not, and always smiling. You'd see a lot of Mosesian and Christian people.

Yeah, lots of Mosaic (Musawi) and Christians in Mecca and Medinah nowadays. And I've seen plenty of Muslims living in extreme poverty.  A Muslim woman/Muslima (a convert, btw. Canadian) used to work with then in Afghanistan. She said they always asked "we see the Christians always coming here to help us. Where are the Muslims?" Then came the Taliban to answer that.

Creation could do better than changing the law so one can have your adopted son divorce his wife so you can marry her, along with the half dozen wives you already have.

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Quote
God created man in His Image and Likeness.  Free will is part of that, and God doesn't interfer with it.

Why do you pray for God for your bread then?

You mean, why do I pray as God Himself taught us to pray?  I'm going to skip discussing the Eucharist (the Heavenly Break the Our Father speaks about) and just point out, if you are going to ask someone for something, you should address yourself to someone who can deliver the goods.

Quote