OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 26, 2014, 04:00:49 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: A Guide to Church Etiquette (A Helpful Guide for those New to Orthodoxy)  (Read 7512 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« on: October 14, 2009, 08:17:17 PM »

This pdf is a brochure produced by Conciliar Press, and I thought it might be helpful to those who are new to Orthodoxy, or who are attending an Orthodox Church for their first time.

http://www.conciliarpress.com/media/free-downloads/ChurchEtiquetteBooklet.pdf
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 11:03:52 PM »

Thanks for posting this.  I'm printing off a copy and I'm going to give it to the church secretary to put into the bulletin. Way too many people, who should know better, are very lax in a lot of these things that the document describes.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2009, 12:01:43 AM »

Thank you so much for posting this, sister.  I'd like to make a copy and give it to our priest.   Smiley
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2009, 12:08:48 AM »

Yeah whatever, this brochure is one person's opinion, especially on when to make the sign of the Cross.  Who prints this junk?  It is appropriate to make the sign of the cross when being censed but to bow when the priest/bishop blesses you and says "Peace be with you all."  That's a custom followed by more Orthodox throughout the world than the know it all newbies converts that get their Orthodoxy from online sources.  As is the "bow when the Theotokos or Christ is mentioned" thing.  Who makes this up.  It maybe one parish's practice but is by no means every one's practice. Conciliar Press and some of the garbage it sells is by no means the end all authority on Orthodox Christianity.  My traditions and church etiquette were passed down to me by my family who has been Orthodox for 1020 years not by a bunch of former Evangelicals who found the faith and think they hold the key to what is truly Orthodox.  If you handed me this garbage brochure as an outsider I would get in my car and leave.  Everyone knows church etiquette is handed down by the grandmothers of the parish not by a Conciliar Press brochure.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 12:14:56 AM by username! » Logged

GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2009, 12:12:42 AM »

Yeah whatever, this brochure is one person's opinion, especially on when to make the sign of the Cross.  Who prints this junk?  It is appropriate to make the sign of the cross when being censed but to bow when the priest/bishop blesses you and says "Peace be with you all."  That's a custom followed by more Orthodox throughout the world than the know it all newbies converts that get their Orthodoxy from online sources.

 You can't disagree without being rude and insulting? 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 12:15:29 AM »

Yeah whatever, this brochure is one person's opinion, especially on when to make the sign of the Cross.  Who prints this junk?  It is appropriate to make the sign of the cross when being censed but to bow when the priest/bishop blesses you and says "Peace be with you all."  That's a custom followed by more Orthodox throughout the world than the know it all newbies converts that get their Orthodoxy from online sources.

 You can't disagree without being rude and insulting? 

The truth always does touch a nerve.  It is a shame good paper is wasted on Conciliar Press catalogs and books/materials.  Go to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese for top-notch Orthodox material, that's where I'd spend my time and money.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 12:17:47 AM by username! » Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2009, 12:18:07 AM »

"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." - James 3:17
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2009, 12:24:16 AM »

"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." - James 3:17

But the brochure that is arrogant and narrow minded is just plain worthless ---username 1:12
Logged

GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 12:25:40 AM »

Yeah whatever, this brochure is one person's opinion, especially on when to make the sign of the Cross.  Who prints this junk?  It is appropriate to make the sign of the cross when being censed but to bow when the priest/bishop blesses you and says "Peace be with you all."  That's a custom followed by more Orthodox throughout the world than the know it all newbies converts that get their Orthodoxy from online sources.

 You can't disagree without being rude and insulting? 

The truth always does touch a nerve.  It is a shame good paper is wasted on Conciliar Press catalogs and books/materials.  Go to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese for top-notch Orthodox material, that's where I'd spend my time and money.

In this case, it wasn't the truth that was found wanting; rather, how it was presented.  More often than not, you're articulate and mild mannered.  I think you could have presented your case much better and without insulting anyone.  Did you stop and think that some of us, maybe a good deal of us, have received a lot of benefit from Concilliar Press?  Rather than simply dismiss the entire publisher, why don't you explain why you feel this pamphlet is wrong?
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2009, 12:32:45 AM »

Yeah whatever, this brochure is one person's opinion, especially on when to make the sign of the Cross.  Who prints this junk?  It is appropriate to make the sign of the cross when being censed but to bow when the priest/bishop blesses you and says "Peace be with you all."  That's a custom followed by more Orthodox throughout the world than the know it all newbies converts that get their Orthodoxy from online sources.  As is the "bow when the Theotokos or Christ is mentioned" thing.  Who makes this up.  It maybe one parish's practice but is by no means every one's practice. Conciliar Press and some of the garbage it sells is by no means the end all authority on Orthodox Christianity.  My traditions and church etiquette were passed down to me by my family who has been Orthodox for 1020 years not by a bunch of former Evangelicals who found the faith and think they hold the key to what is truly Orthodox.  If you handed me this garbage brochure as an outsider I would get in my car and leave.  Everyone knows church etiquette is handed down by the grandmothers of the parish not by a Conciliar Press brochure.

No one is forcing you to use it. If you don't like it, that is fine.

It was a free pamphlet that I thought would be beneficial so some of the "newbies" here. Furthermore, some of the Babba's and Yia-yia's in some of the parish's I've been to could benefit from some of the information in this pamphlet. I did not pick up on the arrogant tone that you feel the pamphlet exudes.

My intent was not to cause offense, but rather to try to help people. I'm sorry you did not see it that way.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2009, 12:35:57 AM »

Yeah whatever, this brochure is one person's opinion, especially on when to make the sign of the Cross.  Who prints this junk?  It is appropriate to make the sign of the cross when being censed but to bow when the priest/bishop blesses you and says "Peace be with you all."  That's a custom followed by more Orthodox throughout the world than the know it all newbies converts that get their Orthodoxy from online sources.

 You can't disagree without being rude and insulting? 

The truth always does touch a nerve.  It is a shame good paper is wasted on Conciliar Press catalogs and books/materials.  Go to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese for top-notch Orthodox material, that's where I'd spend my time and money.

In this case, it wasn't the truth that was found wanting; rather, how it was presented.  More often than not, you're articulate and mild mannered.  I think you could have presented your case much better and without insulting anyone.  Did you stop and think that some of us, maybe a good deal of us, have received a lot of benefit from Concilliar Press?  Rather than simply dismiss the entire publisher, why don't you explain why you feel this pamphlet is wrong?

I did explain why the pamphlet was wrong.  It will be passed around from church to church and be impressionable upon people, they'll think, gee whiz, my parish isn't any good because they make the sign of the cross when the deacon censes them, that's wrong!  Then they will yammer and argue about it for months and show the same disaffection towards cradles in the parish because their time honored traditions don't match what the convert read in a brochure like this or what he read on the internet.  I wasn't being harsh, I was proving a point.  I've heard countless converts treat and speak directly to cradles in the parish just like my comments about converts in that thread.  I wasn't being serious, you know I'm not like that.  But I wanted to show how it feels when a convert takes a brochure like this and denounces, chides and openly corrects and preaches to the cradles/long time converts in the parish he has just joined.  It hurts doesn't it?  Many zealous converts never get to see the pain they cause when they act like that, reading something like what I read hopefully opens the eyes up to a zealous convert who may be armed with some stupid brochure like this as he goes around and preaches to people that they can't kneel during the Our Father, sign themselves during censing, and don't bow when Mary is mentioned as this brochure states should be done.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 12:36:53 AM by username! » Logged

GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2009, 01:03:46 AM »

Yeah whatever, this brochure is one person's opinion, especially on when to make the sign of the Cross.  Who prints this junk?  It is appropriate to make the sign of the cross when being censed but to bow when the priest/bishop blesses you and says "Peace be with you all."  That's a custom followed by more Orthodox throughout the world than the know it all newbies converts that get their Orthodoxy from online sources.

 You can't disagree without being rude and insulting? 

The truth always does touch a nerve.  It is a shame good paper is wasted on Conciliar Press catalogs and books/materials.  Go to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese for top-notch Orthodox material, that's where I'd spend my time and money.

In this case, it wasn't the truth that was found wanting; rather, how it was presented.  More often than not, you're articulate and mild mannered.  I think you could have presented your case much better and without insulting anyone.  Did you stop and think that some of us, maybe a good deal of us, have received a lot of benefit from Concilliar Press?  Rather than simply dismiss the entire publisher, why don't you explain why you feel this pamphlet is wrong?

I did explain why the pamphlet was wrong.  

Not to put too fine a point on it but- I didn't see where you explained anything except how some insensitive people might use the aforementioned brochure in the wrong way.  Unfortunately, you're probably right.  But this doesn't disprove the information in the brochure does it?  I'm genuinely interested myself because I've only been Orthodox for 5 years now and I've only been to two Orthodox parishes ever and both of them are OCA.  I always enjoy learning more about my faith and if I'm doing something wrong, I'd sure like to know why as I do much of what the pamphlet outlines.  So, again, where do you feel the pamphlet errors?   
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2009, 01:07:43 AM »

Yeah whatever, this brochure is one person's opinion, especially on when to make the sign of the Cross.  Who prints this junk?  It is appropriate to make the sign of the cross when being censed but to bow when the priest/bishop blesses you and says "Peace be with you all."  That's a custom followed by more Orthodox throughout the world than the know it all newbies converts that get their Orthodoxy from online sources.

 You can't disagree without being rude and insulting? 

The truth always does touch a nerve.  It is a shame good paper is wasted on Conciliar Press catalogs and books/materials.  Go to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese for top-notch Orthodox material, that's where I'd spend my time and money.

In this case, it wasn't the truth that was found wanting; rather, how it was presented.  More often than not, you're articulate and mild mannered.  I think you could have presented your case much better and without insulting anyone.  Did you stop and think that some of us, maybe a good deal of us, have received a lot of benefit from Concilliar Press?  Rather than simply dismiss the entire publisher, why don't you explain why you feel this pamphlet is wrong?

I did explain why the pamphlet was wrong.  It will be passed around from church to church and be impressionable upon people, they'll think, gee whiz, my parish isn't any good because they make the sign of the cross when the deacon censes them, that's wrong!  Then they will yammer and argue about it for months and show the same disaffection towards cradles in the parish because their time honored traditions don't match what the convert read in a brochure like this or what he read on the internet.  I wasn't being harsh, I was proving a point.  I've heard countless converts treat and speak directly to cradles in the parish just like my comments about converts in that thread.  I wasn't being serious, you know I'm not like that.  But I wanted to show how it feels when a convert takes a brochure like this and denounces, chides and openly corrects and preaches to the cradles/long time converts in the parish he has just joined.  It hurts doesn't it?  Many zealous converts never get to see the pain they cause when they act like that, reading something like what I read hopefully opens the eyes up to a zealous convert who may be armed with some stupid brochure like this as he goes around and preaches to people that they can't kneel during the Our Father, sign themselves during censing, and don't bow when Mary is mentioned as this brochure states should be done.

Thanks for derailing and destroying a thread I created to help people new to the faith.

Signed,

Maureen a "cradle" Orthodox Christian
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2009, 01:09:03 AM »

Yeah whatever, this brochure is one person's opinion, especially on when to make the sign of the Cross.  Who prints this junk?  It is appropriate to make the sign of the cross when being censed but to bow when the priest/bishop blesses you and says "Peace be with you all."  That's a custom followed by more Orthodox throughout the world than the know it all newbies converts that get their Orthodoxy from online sources.

 You can't disagree without being rude and insulting? 

The truth always does touch a nerve.  It is a shame good paper is wasted on Conciliar Press catalogs and books/materials.  Go to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese for top-notch Orthodox material, that's where I'd spend my time and money.

In this case, it wasn't the truth that was found wanting; rather, how it was presented.  More often than not, you're articulate and mild mannered.  I think you could have presented your case much better and without insulting anyone.  Did you stop and think that some of us, maybe a good deal of us, have received a lot of benefit from Concilliar Press?  Rather than simply dismiss the entire publisher, why don't you explain why you feel this pamphlet is wrong?

I did explain why the pamphlet was wrong.  It will be passed around from church to church and be impressionable upon people, they'll think, gee whiz, my parish isn't any good because they make the sign of the cross when the deacon censes them, that's wrong!  Then they will yammer and argue about it for months and show the same disaffection towards cradles in the parish because their time honored traditions don't match what the convert read in a brochure like this or what he read on the internet.  I wasn't being harsh, I was proving a point.  I've heard countless converts treat and speak directly to cradles in the parish just like my comments about converts in that thread.  I wasn't being serious, you know I'm not like that.  But I wanted to show how it feels when a convert takes a brochure like this and denounces, chides and openly corrects and preaches to the cradles/long time converts in the parish he has just joined.  It hurts doesn't it?  Many zealous converts never get to see the pain they cause when they act like that, reading something like what I read hopefully opens the eyes up to a zealous convert who may be armed with some stupid brochure like this as he goes around and preaches to people that they can't kneel during the Our Father, sign themselves during censing, and don't bow when Mary is mentioned as this brochure states should be done.

Thanks for derailing and destroying a thread I created to help people new to the faith.

Signed,

Maureen a "cradle" Orthodox Christian

Sorry Maureen, please forgive me.   
BTW, have a gander at the Molitobnik and see what it says about making the sign of the cross Smiley
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 01:10:36 AM by username! » Logged

HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2009, 01:15:32 AM »

Sorry Maureen, please forgive me.   
BTW, have a gander at the Molitobnik and see what it says about making the sign of the cross Smiley

Username,

Rather than taking that one point and saying "Hey, I think this pamphlet is overall good, however I think people should be aware of the following..." you went on a rant and destroyed the thread. I wish I could delete this thread, as I would not want any potential converts to see any of this now. 

The pamphlet is not the Bible. It was intended to address some concerns. If you feel that something was printed in error, contact Conciliar Press.

As God forgives, I forgive you, I just wish this thread could be undone.



Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2009, 01:31:57 AM »

  I did stay on track, I said the brochure in my opinion wasn't worth the ink and paper it was printed on.  I still stand by that.  It's too "in your face" and I believe it could have been worded less strongly.  Like I said if I was a visitor and saw that authoritarian brochure I would probably leave and go to IHOP and have breakfast. 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 01:33:25 AM by username! » Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2009, 01:43:29 AM »

GabrieltheCelt

Well I can't speak of errors, but fwiw the parish I attend does have some customs that differ from what is described in the brochure...

- Regarding lighting candles, there is very little of that that goes on in my parish. Maybe two or three people each Sunday light a candle up front. In fact, I don't even know where the candles are if I wanted to purchase one and participate in this custom.

- Not everyone in my parish crosses themselves when venerating the cross at the end of Divine Liturgy.

- Pretty much no one in my parish bows when Christ or the Theotokos are mentioned. I've seen people making the sign of the cross when the Theotokos is mentioned before, but the majority in my parish don't follow that custom either. I've also not seen many people bow upon entering the Church. Likewise, I've never seen someone turn around, bow, and do the sign of the cross before leaving.

- The brochure mentioned that in some parishes it's a custom to touch the priest's vestments. I've seen a few people do this in my parish, but not many.

- We generally share antidoran with visitors and people sitting close to us who didn't commune.

- Some people in my parish leave after communion, but for all I know they are preparing stuff in the banquet hall or something like that (even though the brochure says that this is not acceptable).

- I can count on one hand how many times I've seen someone ask our priest for a blessing. It's just not a normal practice. Asking for a blessing from the bishop is another story.

That's all that comes to mind. Obviously I'm not standing around looking at people during services, or watching the doors, so this isn't based on a lot of observation. I think I've described our customs (or lack of certain customs) pretty accurately though.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2009, 01:48:43 AM »

GabrieltheCelt

Well I can't speak of errors, but fwiw the parish I attend does have some customs that differ from what is described in the brochure...

- Regarding lighting candles, there is very little of that that goes on in my parish. Maybe two or three people each Sunday light a candle up front. In fact, I don't even know where the candles are if I wanted to purchase one and participate in this custom.

- Not everyone in my parish crosses themselves when venerating the cross at the end of Divine Liturgy.

- Pretty much no one in my parish bows when Christ or the Theotokos are mentioned. I've seen people making the sign of the cross when the Theotokos is mentioned before, but the majority in my parish don't follow that custom either. I've also not seen many people bow upon entering the Church. Likewise, I've never seen someone turn around, bow, and do the sign of the cross before leaving.

- The brochure mentioned that in some parishes it's a custom to touch the priest's vestments. I've seen a few people do this in my parish, but not many.

- We generally share antidoran with visitors and people sitting close to us who didn't commune.

- Some people in my parish leave after communion, but for all I know they are preparing stuff in the banquet hall or something like that (even though the brochure says that this is not acceptable).

- I can count on one hand how many times I've seen someone ask our priest for a blessing. It's just not a normal practice. Asking for a blessing from the bishop is another story.

That's all that comes to mind. Obviously I'm not standing around looking at people during services, or watching the doors, so this isn't based on a lot of observation. I think I've described our customs (or lack of certain customs) pretty accurately though.

Thanks brother.  Very interesting indeed. 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2009, 03:20:08 AM »

My traditions and church etiquette were passed down to me by my family who has been Orthodox for 1020 years not by a bunch of former Evangelicals who found the faith and think they hold the key to what is truly Orthodox.  If you handed me this garbage brochure as an outsider I would get in my car and leave.  Everyone knows church etiquette is handed down by the grandmothers of the parish not by a Conciliar Press brochure.

Unfortunately, we can't all be as lucky as you are with your rich Orthodox heritage. I don't believe I've been formally introduced to any of the "official" Church grandmothers yet, so this guide will have to do in the meantime.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 03:20:48 AM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,919



« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2009, 03:37:12 AM »

Like I said if I was a visitor and saw that authoritarian brochure I would probably leave and go to IHOP and have breakfast.

I love IHOP!
Logged
basilthefool
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Holy Orthodox Metropolis of Boston (HOCNA)
Posts: 84


htfulcher@comcast.net
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2009, 06:03:23 AM »

Uh... Excuse me for butting in, but I thought kneeling was generally forbidden on all Sundays of the year, these being "Little Paschas". That's why the "Kneeling Vespers" are just that "Vespers" ... for Monday after Pentecost.

Did I miss something?
Logged
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2009, 07:21:10 AM »

Uh... Excuse me for butting in, but I thought kneeling was generally forbidden on all Sundays of the year, these being "Little Paschas". That's why the "Kneeling Vespers" are just that "Vespers" ... for Monday after Pentecost.

Did I miss something?

Now Maureen this is a post that could derail the thread too Smiley  Yes some churches kneel during the Our Father even on Sundays.  My family's parish does ( I don't though but I'm always serving on the altar).
Logged

HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2009, 07:23:03 AM »

Uh... Excuse me for butting in, but I thought kneeling was generally forbidden on all Sundays of the year, these being "Little Paschas". That's why the "Kneeling Vespers" are just that "Vespers" ... for Monday after Pentecost.

Did I miss something?

While technically the canons forbid kneeling on Sundays this is a practice used in some parishes, and it's not restricted to just one jurisdiction. (I have personally witnessed it in at least three jurisdictions.) The only time when it is absolutely not used at all (even in said parishes) is between Pascha and Pentecost.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2009, 07:29:12 AM »

Uh... Excuse me for butting in, but I thought kneeling was generally forbidden on all Sundays of the year, these being "Little Paschas". That's why the "Kneeling Vespers" are just that "Vespers" ... for Monday after Pentecost.

Did I miss something?

While technically the canons forbid kneeling on Sundays this is a practice used in some parishes, and it's not restricted to just one jurisdiction. (I have personally witnessed it in at least three jurisdictions.) The only time when it is absolutely not used at all (even in said parishes) is between Pascha and Pentecost.

You're not going to yell at him for a derailing thread?  Ahhh come on Maureen  Tongue  If I remember correctly my family's parish even kneels during the "Take Eat"  and "Drink of this all of you."  Very Catholic like, and that's who I'm blaming this kneeling practice on.  It is what happens when your family and a bunch of other families leave the Greek Catholic Church up the street and return to Orthodoxy, they still retain some of the latinizations and odd Greek Catholic hang-ups.
Logged

HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2009, 07:29:56 AM »

BTW, have a gander at the Molitobnik and see what it says about making the sign of the cross Smiley

GabrieltheCelt

Well I can't speak of errors, but fwiw the parish I attend does have some customs that differ from what is described in the brochure...

- Regarding lighting candles, there is very little of that that goes on in my parish. Maybe two or three people each Sunday light a candle up front. In fact, I don't even know where the candles are if I wanted to purchase one and participate in this custom.

- Not everyone in my parish crosses themselves when venerating the cross at the end of Divine Liturgy.

- Pretty much no one in my parish bows when Christ or the Theotokos are mentioned. I've seen people making the sign of the cross when the Theotokos is mentioned before, but the majority in my parish don't follow that custom either. I've also not seen many people bow upon entering the Church. Likewise, I've never seen someone turn around, bow, and do the sign of the cross before leaving.

- The brochure mentioned that in some parishes it's a custom to touch the priest's vestments. I've seen a few people do this in my parish, but not many.

- We generally share antidoran with visitors and people sitting close to us who didn't commune.

- Some people in my parish leave after communion, but for all I know they are preparing stuff in the banquet hall or something like that (even though the brochure says that this is not acceptable).

- I can count on one hand how many times I've seen someone ask our priest for a blessing. It's just not a normal practice. Asking for a blessing from the bishop is another story.

That's all that comes to mind. Obviously I'm not standing around looking at people during services, or watching the doors, so this isn't based on a lot of observation. I think I've described our customs (or lack of certain customs) pretty accurately though.

Quote from the 3rd page of pamphlet:

"This guide is meant for personal reflection, not as a means of
judging others. Keep in mind that there are different traditions
even among the Orthodox faithful.
We come to church to pray
and worship God above all else, and that should be our only
focus." (Emphasis added)

In other words the pamphlet is to be used as a guide, and preferably accompanied with additional instruction. It is not to meant be used in a vacuum.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 07:37:34 AM by HandmaidenofGod » Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2009, 07:31:46 AM »

I still do what my Molitobnik tells me to do Smiley Can I get a shout out for South Boundbrook?
Logged

HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2009, 07:36:59 AM »

I still do what my Molitobnik tells me to do Smiley Can I get a shout out for South Boundbrook?

There are some traditions in my UOC parish that differ from those in the Molitovnik. Should I go on a rant about how incorrect the Molitovnik is? Or should I just realize that traditions differ among the faithful and move on?

I think I'll choose the latter.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2009, 08:07:15 AM »

Give it a rest, username.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2009, 08:18:49 AM »

I still do what my Molitobnik tells me to do Smiley Can I get a shout out for South Boundbrook?

There are some traditions in my UOC parish that differ from those in the Molitovnik. Should I go on a rant about how incorrect the Molitovnik is? Or should I just realize that traditions differ among the faithful and move on?

I think I'll choose the latter.

I don't know if the point is that "there is diversity of practice and because of diversity no one should express only one viewpoint;" I think the point is "because many people look at Conciliar Press as the source for definitive information about the Orthodox, especially visitors to the Church who are exposed to their dozens of brochures and booklets, they should take more care in presenting universal information as universal, and other information as usual or local."

While I may disagree with the method of presentation, I do agree with the essential point: those who have influence should be mindful of their role, and take care to present what is fact as fact and what is opinion as such.

Good example: kissing the Cross.  Thankfully, no priest has presented to me the opinion that it should be done after each service.  Why do I say "thankfully?" Because the long-standing tradition (at least in Greek practice) is that only the Bishop uses the Cross to bless and for public veneration at the end of the service.  Yup, that's right, every Church has a Cross, but according to Greek custom is doesn't get used except when the Bishop is present.  Because that information is in the back of the minds of many clergy, they don't present deviation from that practice as universal; and because those who follow this tradition (i.e. only the Bishop uses the Cross) know that others don't follow it, they also don't present their practice as universal.

This is the angle that is used by those who have concerns about what is published by many Orthodox authors, from Frederica to Metropolitan JOHN of Pergamum - is what they are presenting influencing non-Orthodox, and are they presenting their opinion as universal practice?  Is what they are presenting correct at all times and in all places, or are they presenting theologoumena as Tradition and Dogma?

The concern is then magnified when the publication in question (in this case, the Etiquette guide) is given to those who don't have experience to judge it against, or the information to evaluate it.  This is the kind of pamphlet that will/would be handed to those who are not Orthodox but are visiting, and for those who are catecumens or newly illuminated.  That's why it is good for us to look it over with a critical eye, and need to engage in the dialogue to make sure we're not selling our visitors/new members a false bill of goods.  Engaging in the dialogue, even with those who express their opinion in a manner other than what one would prefer, is key to making sure our faith is presented genuinely and correctly.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
basilthefool
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Holy Orthodox Metropolis of Boston (HOCNA)
Posts: 84


htfulcher@comcast.net
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2009, 09:12:31 AM »

Uh... Excuse me for butting in, but I thought kneeling was generally forbidden on all Sundays of the year, these being "Little Paschas". That's why the "Kneeling Vespers" are just that "Vespers" ... for Monday after Pentecost.

Did I miss something?

While technically the canons forbid kneeling on Sundays this is a practice used in some parishes, and it's not restricted to just one jurisdiction. (I have personally witnessed it in at least three jurisdictions.) The only time when it is absolutely not used at all (even in said parishes) is between Pascha and Pentecost.

You're not going to yell at him for a derailing thread? ....

Thank you username! for taking notice of my question. Actually, many people seem to "give me a pass" on a lot of my questions and the things I say due to their (my words) inherent foolishness.
Logged
Thomas
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,816



« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2009, 09:38:04 AM »

Yeah whatever, this brochure is one person's opinion, especially on when to make the sign of the Cross.  Who prints this junk?  It is appropriate to make the sign of the cross when being censed but to bow when the priest/bishop blesses you and says "Peace be with you all."  That's a custom followed by more Orthodox throughout the world than the know it all newbies converts that get their Orthodoxy from online sources.  As is the "bow when the Theotokos or Christ is mentioned" thing.  Who makes this up.  It maybe one parish's practice but is by no means every one's practice. Conciliar Press and some of the garbage it sells is by no means the end all authority on Orthodox Christianity.  My traditions and church etiquette were passed down to me by my family who has been Orthodox for 1020 years not by a bunch of former Evangelicals who found the faith and think they hold the key to what is truly Orthodox.  If you handed me this garbage brochure as an outsider I would get in my car and leave.  Everyone knows church etiquette is handed down by the grandmothers of the parish not by a Conciliar Press brochure.

You are absolutely correct that its is best taught by those who have years of tradition and practice under their belt , the yia yias and the babushkas, the  seasoned God parents, however such is not always the case.  Many convert parishes have been establuished where there are few Orthodox or the few Orthodox in the area have been away from the Church for years as there was no church within a 100 miles. Many converts  come to Orthodoxy by their own search for the True and Holy Orthodox Church trough the reading of books and texts, they come together, find a jurisdiction willing to risk the expense of creating a new mission in an area with few if any cradle and practicing Orthodox, get a priest to minister and cultivate the parish. Books such as the Counciliar press or the Jordanville Prayerbook guide these new converts to practices that the authors have been taught or use. To the new convert they provide a resource to start Orthopraxis. If they move to another parish later they have a basis to draw from and adapt to the parish use where they are at.  Having been in the military and moved into parshes taht utilize Greek then ROCOR then Antiochian practices, I have discovered that each tradition is different but having a base to work on made my transition easier to handle.

Thanks be to God  where we have the cradle Orthodox to guide us  and  Thanks be to God when they are not there that we have  ettiquette guides like the Counciliar Press or the Jordanville Prayerbook to fall back on as we progress to good Orthopraxis.

Thomas
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 05:31:47 PM by Thomas » Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,360



« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2009, 09:57:39 AM »

"The Church does not speak through an individual but through the Consensus Patrum, the consensus of the Fathers of the Church. That means that no one bishop, theologian or saint has the entirety of the Truth. It doesn’t matter how holy or how learned you are, the Holy Spirit speaks the Truth and manifests the Truth through the totality of the Church. (Obviously, both individually and corporately, we should strive to be both learned and holy, to study and to pray.)

Our Church has been around for 2000 years. We’ve learned a great deal during that time. We’ve made some mistakes along the way and hopefully we’ve learned from them. We have studied the Bible, and understand it by the Holy Spirit working through the whole Church and the whole of Church History. Holy Tradition is the Bible understood and lived by the Church. The
dogma of the Church especially as expressed in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is Holy Tradition. If you disagree with a point of the Creed, you are not in The Church.

There are big “T” Traditions that are unchangeable and there are little “t” traditions which can vary from place to place and time to time, especially in relation to the practice of the faith. For instance, my grandmother was a very pious and faithful woman. She always began her day with prayer and reading the Bible, and continued to pray and read the Bible throughout the day. She was always at church services and kept the oil lamp on the proskinitari across the street lit at all times. She was raised, as were many of you, with the practice of infrequent communion. You fasted for two weeks, one week or at the very least on Saturday to receive Holy Communion at Pascha, Christmas, Panagia’s and your nameday. When she saw someone going for Holy Communion on a regular basis, she would get very upset, “What do they think it is, soup?”

Yet we know that the best expression of our Holy Tradition is to keep up a healthy spiritual life, observing the fast on Wednesdays and Fridays as well as other fasting periods, maintaining our prayer life and our moral life, confessing our sins personally and formally through Holy Confession, and receiving Holy Communion often as a means of spiritual sustenance. We know that it is not “soup” but it is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, spiritual food for spiritual health for those who have prepared to receive it. [Incidentally, Canon 64 of the Apostolic Canons forbids fasting on a Saturday or a Sunday, except for Holy Saturday, but don’t tell my grandmother!]

Does that mean that my grandmother is/was wrong? Of course not, she did what she believed was right and God blessed her for that. Our Parishes are composed of a great many people with a great many different experiences of tradition, all of us very attached to how things were done in the old days. If we do things differently, does that mean that we are doing things wrong or that things were done wrong back in your home parish? Not necessarily, they may both be right or at least acceptable.

Our challenge is to come to a consensus through study and prayer as to the best way to manifest the Holy Tradition of our Church and to honor the various traditions that each of us has known. This is not always easy. I am humble enough to realize that I am not infallible, and that I do not have a lock on the Total Truth of God. My primary concern however to manifest in our Parish communities that which is in both the best Tradition and traditions of our Orthodox Christian Church." Fr. Demetri Tsigas

When asked to provide citation for this quote Katherine replied "It was from his parish newsletter awhile ago - maybe even last year. I liked it so much that I copied it and kept it. "   Thanks for responding Katherine!

Just a reminder to all that when posting quotes your should always cite the source.  If it is a parish newletter note the name of the parish and the location, the year of the newsletter ,and if known the date or Volume and number of the newsletter. We ask for these citations so  our members can go to the source and read the entire article if they desire.

Thanks, Thomas Convert issues Forum Moderator
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 10:00:54 AM by Thomas » Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,229



WWW
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2009, 10:18:35 AM »


HandMaidenofGod,

Thanks for the great post.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading the brochure.

By no means is it written in stone, but, it's good to know why people do certain things - even if it's not done in our own parishes.  At least we will have an understanding of why those people are running up and touching the priest's vestments.

As for kneeling or not....My parish doesn't kneel between Pascha and Pentecost, and between the Nativity of Christ and Theophony.

Hold on to your hats folks....we actually do kneel on Sundays!   Shocked    Oh my gosh....does that mean Heaven is locked to us???

Plllleeease.  Some of you can be so self-righteous!  Judge not.

If the person is doing something out of piousness or love of God, I don't think it will be held against them.

Did not the shepherds come and kneel before the Christ child?  Kneeling is a form of humility and servitude.  It shows respect.

Until I am told by my own bishops that kneeling is forbidden....by golly...I will continue to kneel any time of the any day that I feel the need to humble myself before God.


Plus, the rudeness presented to HandMaiden is uncalled for.  I thought this was a Forum for open discussion.  The way some people act, you would think this is their own personal blog.

This attitude dissuades many folks from posting...because they don't feel the need to get constantly belittled or berated.

I've seen many things that were "odd" to me in various parishes....however, if the people do it with good meaning...and do not disrespect God or Church while doing it....who are we to judge?

Peace to all.

I still do what my Molitobnik tells me to do Smiley Can I get a shout out for South Boundbrook?

...and here's my shout out for South Boundbrook - Whoo hooo!  Yippeee!  Alleluia!  God bless the Consistory, all the hierarchs and all their faithful!

However, the MolitoVnik is a book written by men....it is not Holy Scripture, and therefore, is prone to errors and typos.


Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
rwprof
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA now, Antiochian originally
Posts: 294



« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2009, 11:55:02 AM »

Hold on to your hats folks....we actually do kneel on Sundays!

Not to derail the thread, but do you mean kneel as Catholics do, or do you mean prostrations? I ask because when Orthodox use the word, they can mean either or.

On weekday liturgies, we do prostrations after the epiklesis and during the Lord's Prayer. At an Antiochian church I attended a couple of months ago, there were people on their knees kneeling during the Great Entrance (I had never seen that before).

Anyway, just curious.
Logged

Mark (rwprof) passed into eternal life on Jan 7, 2010.  May his memory be eternal!
Douglas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 608


« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2009, 12:09:07 PM »

HandmaidenofGod, thank you so much for this brochure. It will prove very beneficial for many seeking Orthodoxy and for others who simply want to know more about the Church. It's unfortunate that the thread was derailed by a few rigorists but then ... there will always be those who strain out a gnat but swallow a camel, if you get my drift.
Logged

Douglas no longer posts on the forum.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2009, 12:56:47 PM »

HandmaidenofGod

Quote
In other words the pamphlet is to be used as a guide, and preferably accompanied with additional instruction. It is not to meant be used in a vacuum. 

I apologize if my post came off like I was saying "Ha! We don't use those customs, so you're wrong! Nya!" I didn't see what I was sharing as exposing error, just explaining the usage of different customs. I figured maybe Gabriel (and others, myself included) would enjoy discussing differences in custom. It can be interesting to see how much variation there is within this Orthodox world that we live in. I figured that such a discussion couldn't be worse than the route the thread was already taking Wink I would think that the pamphlet would make a good template, where you could insert in your own practices and customs for your particular parish. I actually think it'd be a wonderful idea to print something like that out and include it in the bulletin for the week, maybe with the priest bringing special attention to it.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 12:57:43 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,229



WWW
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2009, 01:14:13 PM »

Hold on to your hats folks....we actually do kneel on Sundays!

Not to derail the thread, but do you mean kneel as Catholics do, or do you mean prostrations? I ask because when Orthodox use the word, they can mean either or.

On weekday liturgies, we do prostrations after the epiklesis and during the Lord's Prayer. At an Antiochian church I attended a couple of months ago, there were people on their knees kneeling during the Great Entrance (I had never seen that before).

Anyway, just curious.


Again....please don't jump all over me....but, YES, we do kneel...I kneel....as in bend our knees and fall to the grown and stay there for a while.

We kneel during the Cherubim Hymn/Great Entrance, the reading of the Gospel, during (the "Take Eat"  and "Drink of this all of you."), during the Lord's Prayer, and during the final hymn/prayer.

Those who have partaken of Holy Communion do not kneel afterwards, but, stand.

This is has nothing to do with Catholicism, as was previously hinted at.  It's simply done that way in the old country and has carried over to the new.

Until and unless we have directions from hierarchy to abstain from kneeling....the kneeling, out of love and reverence to the Lord, will continue.

What about a few weeks ago when we had the Exaltation of the Holy Cross....didn't folks get down on their knees on a Sunday?

I honestly don't see the harm in it.

How many folks who hold to the canons and don't kneel on Sunday out of duty....go home and cut the grass, do the laundry, and other things that could be done some day other than on the Lord's Day?


Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2009, 01:25:20 PM »

I was always taught that when we are censed, whether by deacon, priest or bishop that we are NOT to cross ourselves but to bow simply.  I was taught this by an Orthodox priest and not some internet database, btw.  THe reason is that we are icons of Christ.  He didn't explain it more than that.  Can someone shed more light on this?

Back to the main point, though, guides like this are necessary even where a lot of cradle orthodox, who rarely attend church either because they married someone who is not Orthodox or whatever, and converts do not know the standards of etiquette and reverence.  This is not a "come as you are" atmosphere but you are entering into the presence of God and there are certain rules of decorum that you would observe as you would observe if you were guests in another person's home. 

So much of Orthodoxy has been compromised by Protestant ideals of "worship" that such things, like this brochure, are necessary.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,268



« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2009, 01:34:10 PM »

The truth always does touch a nerve.

Quite ironic you should mention that. Wink

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,229



WWW
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2009, 01:47:28 PM »

I was always taught that when we are censed, whether by deacon, priest or bishop that we are NOT to cross ourselves but to bow simply.  I was taught this by an Orthodox priest and not some internet database, btw.  THe reason is that we are icons of Christ.  He didn't explain it more than that.  Can someone shed more light on this?

I was taught the exact same thing.  The priest first censes the Altar, then comes out and censes the icons on the iconostasis....then turns to us....as living icons of Christ and cences us.

I was told not to cross myself, but, to bow.  The bow, I believe, is to acknowledge and thank the priest and his acknowledgment of your status as a living icon.

Sort of like people greet themselves with a nod of the head....

We also bow when he gives us a "general" blessing and don't cross ourselves.  This is to thank him for his blessing.   Some even put their hands together (like when asking for an official blessing) when the priest blesses his congregation.



Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2009, 02:02:41 PM »

It's not strictly my business what other people do, but I'm much more bothered by people slipping into their seats between the Gospel and the sermon and leaving after communing than by people crossing or not crossing themselves at certain times. Where people get the idea that that's okay, I don't know. I don't remember ever seeing that happen so commonly at Protestant churches. It's distracting to have so much commotion halfway through the liturgy, and it turns a wedding banquet into a stop at McDonald's.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 02:08:30 PM by bogdan » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,684


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2009, 02:20:53 PM »

Just a suggestion:  Rather than continue to jump on username! for choosing to speak his mind in such a blunt manner, can we refocus our attention on the Guide to Church Etiquette and the substance of various critiques of said guide?  Sure, username! stirred up a hornets nest.  But we're not hornets.  We don't have to launch a counterattack.
Logged
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2009, 05:39:14 PM »


Again....please don't jump all over me....but, YES, we do kneel...I kneel....as in bend our knees and fall to the grown and stay there for a while.

We kneel during the Cherubim Hymn/Great Entrance, the reading of the Gospel, during (the "Take Eat"  and "Drink of this all of you."), during the Lord's Prayer, and during the final hymn/prayer.

Those who have partaken of Holy Communion do not kneel afterwards, but, stand.

This is has nothing to do with Catholicism, as was previously hinted at.  It's simply done that way in the old country and has carried over to the new.
There are groups of people that kneel on Sundays in my church and in many churches in the US. (I brought an icon and a pitbull to protect us on this thread. Wink  )
Logged
Thomas
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,816



« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2009, 05:41:14 PM »

Yeah whatever, this brochure is one person's opinion, especially on when to make the sign of the Cross.  Who prints this junk?  It is appropriate to make the sign of the cross when being censed but to bow when the priest/bishop blesses you and says "Peace be with you all."  That's a custom followed by more Orthodox throughout the world than the know it all newbies converts that get their Orthodoxy from online sources.

 You can't disagree without being rude and insulting? 

The truth always does touch a nerve.  It is a shame good paper is wasted on Conciliar Press catalogs and books/materials.  Go to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese for top-notch Orthodox material, that's where I'd spend my time and money.

In this case, it wasn't the truth that was found wanting; rather, how it was presented.  More often than not, you're articulate and mild mannered.  I think you could have presented your case much better and without insulting anyone.  Did you stop and think that some of us, maybe a good deal of us, have received a lot of benefit from Concilliar Press?  Rather than simply dismiss the entire publisher, why don't you explain why you feel this pamphlet is wrong?

I did explain why the pamphlet was wrong.  It will be passed around from church to church and be impressionable upon people, they'll think, gee whiz, my parish isn't any good because they make the sign of the cross when the deacon censes them, that's wrong!  Then they will yammer and argue about it for months and show the same disaffection towards cradles in the parish because their time honored traditions don't match what the convert read in a brochure like this or what he read on the internet.  I wasn't being harsh, I was proving a point.  I've heard countless converts treat and speak directly to cradles in the parish just like my comments about converts in that thread.  I wasn't being serious, you know I'm not like that.  But I wanted to show how it feels when a convert takes a brochure like this and denounces, chides and openly corrects and preaches to the cradles/long time converts in the parish he has just joined.  It hurts doesn't it?  Many zealous converts never get to see the pain they cause when they act like that, reading something like what I read hopefully opens the eyes up to a zealous convert who may be armed with some stupid brochure like this as he goes around and preaches to people that they can't kneel during the Our Father, sign themselves during censing, and don't bow when Mary is mentioned as this brochure states should be done.

Thanks for derailing and destroying a thread I created to help people new to the faith.

Signed,

Maureen a "cradle" Orthodox Christian

I will keep this post open as it has good information from both sides, however I would like to ask everyone, especially in the Convert Issues Forum, to be kind and loving to each other, respect one another's view when disagreeing courteously with each other when on the OC.net

Thomas
Convert Issues Forum Moderator.
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
SDMPNS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: raised in Metropolia which became the OCA now I belong to a GOA parish..
Posts: 540


Praise God for the beauty of Creation


« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2009, 06:02:39 PM »

One thing I cannot get used to is people talking in Church.It seems to have gotten much worse recently.I also cringe when I see people greeting each other and shaking usher's hands as they go up to receive Communion...
Logged
Tags: proper behavior 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.173 seconds with 72 queries.