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Poll
Question: Should parents still wash kids' mouths out with soap?
Yes - 10 (23.8%)
No - 16 (38.1%)
Only if it was for major disrespect - 11 (26.2%)
Never and parents who do should go to to jail - 5 (11.9%)
Total Voters: 42

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Author Topic: Should parents still wash kids' mouths out with soap?  (Read 24263 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tamara
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« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2010, 01:03:07 AM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
I just can't possibly concieve of how its abusive. Its uncomfortable yes, but all punishments are.

It's demeaning.
All punishment is demeaning. It teaches us humility.

I'm inclined to think that forcing demeaning things upon people is inherently sinful.

As a parent, I agree. I have always shown my children respect as human beings and gifts from God.
Discipline does not require humiliation. Discipline is about teaching a child self-control. But if a parent doesn't respect the child's dignity, one will not get far with teaching them self-control.

I just want to add, that if you constantly let your child know how much you love them through your words and actions everyday, they will want to aspire to the goals you set for them in being well-behaved little people. Let them know how precious they are to you always.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 01:07:53 AM by Tamara » Logged
thetraditionalfrog
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« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2010, 01:17:43 AM »

I never had my mouth "washed out" with soap, per se. However, when I was about seven I decided to see what a bar of soap tasted like. So I bit in to, and chewed a hunk off of a nice pink bar of my great aunt's Camay. The only ill effect I had was a few very quick trips to the loo.

Oh... did I mention it tasted terrible as well.
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« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2010, 02:47:25 AM »

Doesn't "humiliate" mean "to cause humility"?
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« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2010, 05:24:46 AM »

There's more to this story.  This wasn't just a girl who had to sit with a bar of soap in her mouth a la Ralphie:

Video here with important info: http://www2.counton2.com/cbd/news/crime/article/florida_child_suffers_severe_allergic_reaction_to_washing_out_potty_mouth_w/74587/

Quote
A couple is charged with child abuse after an old method of punishment goes wrong.
 
Adriyanna Herdener and her boyfriend, Wilfredo Rivera, are accused of the Friday incident where Rivera allegedly put half a bar of soap in their 8-year-old daughter's mouth because she said an expletive.

The child had to chew the soap for 10 minutes while vomiting, crying and begging to rinse her mouth out.

Investigators said Rivera wouldn't let her until she cleaned up the mess.
 
“When she was asking for relief of her distress, he basically laughed at her and continued on with what he was trying to do,” said Yvonne Martinez, a spokeswoman for the Palm Bay Police Department.

“It's only supposed to be a saying. You're not actually supposed to do that,” said Max Wilkerson, a parent.

Herdener and Rivera are out on bond.

In the meantime, the 8-year-old and the couple's other child are in the custody of the Department of Children and Families.
http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2009/10/12/child_forced_to_chew_soap_as_punishment.html


Quote
An age-old punishment got a 32-year-old mother and her 41-year-old boyfriend from Palm Bay thrown in jail. An 8-year-old girl said a bad word over weekend, so the couple washed her mouth out with soap.

The little girl was hospitalized, but was released and put in the custody of the Department of Children and Families along with a sibling.

While you've probably heard of parents washing their kids’ mouth out with soap, police say in this case it wasn't just a form of discipline, it was abuse.

The couple is in hot water after attempting to discipline the 8-year-old girl using a bar of Irish Spring. Police say Wilfredo Rivera forced the little girl to chew on a half-bar of the green soap for 10 minutes after she said the "F" word.

Police said the little girl was foaming at the mouth and wasn't allowed to wash the soap out until she cleaned up her own vomit.

"The detectives handling this case believed it to the point of abuse, child abuse, and that it was malicious torture,” explained Palm Bay police spokesperson Yvonne Martinez said.

Investigators say Rivera was laughing while the girl's mother did nothing until the couple noticed the girl's lips, throat and tongue were swollen. Then Rivera took her to Palm Bay Community Hospital.

However, police say, Rivera didn't stay to get her any help and left after he found out hospital staff called authorities, including the Florida Department of Children and Families.


Their landlord said Rivera told him they left because their daughter wanted to leave.

"He told me that the child was hungry and he said he knew she wasn't hungry because he had fed her something,” landlord Darwyn Rushing said.

When police discovered the girl at her house, she was still showing signs of some sort of allergic reaction that could have had dire consequences.

"Complications that could have turned life threatening,” Martinez said.

The girl was taken by ambulance back to the hospital and the couple was taken to jail. The 8-year-old girl is not the child of the mother’s boyfriend. Herderner and Rivera, however, do have an 18-month-old child together. Both children are in the care and custody of DCF.

Adriyanna Herdener was released on her own recognizance and her boyfriend was released with $20,000 bond. Eyewitness News tried to contact both of them, but was unable to reach them.
http://www.wftv.com/news/21273709/detail.html


I also found a comment on a blog which states:
Quote
There is MUCH more to it…. Little Yanna had soap-bubbles coming out of her eyes and nose.. Adriyanna has raised that poor child in soup kitchens and assistance offices… She has mental problems and should have had the child removed long ago… She would yell at her in a voice that you would expect from special effects dept horror movies… Terrible situation- and Wilfredo is not even her father…. wonder where Patrick is? They deserved to be arrested… anyone who raises children in that type of poverty and environment needs it….
http://www.crimerant.com/?p=1757



Quote
On the, surface one might think washing a child’s mouth out with soap is no crime, but the rest of the story changes that.

32-year-old Adriyanna Herdener, deferred punishment to her live-in boyfriend, 41-year-old Wilfredo Rivera. After all, he was the father of their 18-month-old daughter and, as Herdener told police, “the head of the household.”

The 8 year-old daughter of Herdener apparently said some bad words.  Rivera grabbed a bar of Irish Spring and told the child – not wash her mouth out – but to EAT the bar of soap.

Herdener watched for 10 minutes as her asthmatic 8 year-old daughter chewed on this bar of soap (containing poisonous anti bacterial ingredients); crying and begging to stop the torture.  The girl began foaming at the mouth and vomited.  Herdener made her child clean-up her own vomit.  Rivera laughed at the girl.

The child then went into anaphylactic shock and her mouth and throat began to swell.  Herdner told Rivera to take her to the hospital so she didn’t have to deal with child services.  Rivera took the child to the ER, but once he realized they were calling police he grabbed the girl and bolted.  He took her back home.

When police arrived Herdner said she had given her some Benadryl and put her to bed.  They found her in bed wheezing.

The soap punishment rose to the level of a crime because of the malicious torture involved and the protection and help the mother failed to provide to her child.

The 8 year-old and the 18 month-old are in protective custody.
http://badbreeders.net/tag/bad-boyfriend/



Quote
Washing your mouth out with soap for cursing is a punishment from the old days, but it landed a Florida couple in jail.

According to police, the mother's boyfriend Wilfredo Rivera made the girl chew on soap for 10 minutes. This all happened while the mother, Adriyanna Herdener watched.

Investigators in Orlando say the child was crying, vomiting, and foaming at the mouth. According to police, the boyfriend wouldn't let the girl rinse out her mouth until she cleaned up her mess.

Reports state the child's lips, throat, and tongue became swollen and was in pain. That's when the mom asked her boyfriend to take the 8 year old to the hospital. Herdener didn't go to the hospital because she didn't want to deal with DCF. But DCF was called and both mom and the boyfriend were arrested.

According to DCF, the couple has a lengthy history of complaints.
http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/64329887.html
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genesisone
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« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2010, 12:15:46 PM »

There's more to this story....
Thank you for putting a context to all of this. A key sentence that I noticed was this, "The soap punishment rose to the level of a crime (emphasis mine) because of the malicious torture involved and the protection and help the mother failed to provide to her child."

Using soap as a deterrent is no more a crime than other forms of correction applied judiciously in the context of a loving and caring home. That was clearly not the case in the situation reported here. And yes, those adults need to dealt with as severely as the law allows.

However, cases like this should not create an attitude of fear in good parents who wisely use various methods in raising their children that are condemned by do-gooders who have the theory, but no experience.
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Tamara
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« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2010, 12:16:40 PM »

There's more to this story.  This wasn't just a girl who had to sit with a bar of soap in her mouth a la Ralphie:

Video here with important info: http://www2.counton2.com/cbd/news/crime/article/florida_child_suffers_severe_allergic_reaction_to_washing_out_potty_mouth_w/74587/

Quote
A couple is charged with child abuse after an old method of punishment goes wrong.
 
Adriyanna Herdener and her boyfriend, Wilfredo Rivera, are accused of the Friday incident where Rivera allegedly put half a bar of soap in their 8-year-old daughter's mouth because she said an expletive.

The child had to chew the soap for 10 minutes while vomiting, crying and begging to rinse her mouth out.

Investigators said Rivera wouldn't let her until she cleaned up the mess.
 
“When she was asking for relief of her distress, he basically laughed at her and continued on with what he was trying to do,” said Yvonne Martinez, a spokeswoman for the Palm Bay Police Department.

“It's only supposed to be a saying. You're not actually supposed to do that,” said Max Wilkerson, a parent.

Herdener and Rivera are out on bond.

In the meantime, the 8-year-old and the couple's other child are in the custody of the Department of Children and Families.
http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2009/10/12/child_forced_to_chew_soap_as_punishment.html


Quote
An age-old punishment got a 32-year-old mother and her 41-year-old boyfriend from Palm Bay thrown in jail. An 8-year-old girl said a bad word over weekend, so the couple washed her mouth out with soap.

The little girl was hospitalized, but was released and put in the custody of the Department of Children and Families along with a sibling.

While you've probably heard of parents washing their kids’ mouth out with soap, police say in this case it wasn't just a form of discipline, it was abuse.

The couple is in hot water after attempting to discipline the 8-year-old girl using a bar of Irish Spring. Police say Wilfredo Rivera forced the little girl to chew on a half-bar of the green soap for 10 minutes after she said the "F" word.

Police said the little girl was foaming at the mouth and wasn't allowed to wash the soap out until she cleaned up her own vomit.

"The detectives handling this case believed it to the point of abuse, child abuse, and that it was malicious torture,” explained Palm Bay police spokesperson Yvonne Martinez said.

Investigators say Rivera was laughing while the girl's mother did nothing until the couple noticed the girl's lips, throat and tongue were swollen. Then Rivera took her to Palm Bay Community Hospital.

However, police say, Rivera didn't stay to get her any help and left after he found out hospital staff called authorities, including the Florida Department of Children and Families.


Their landlord said Rivera told him they left because their daughter wanted to leave.

"He told me that the child was hungry and he said he knew she wasn't hungry because he had fed her something,” landlord Darwyn Rushing said.

When police discovered the girl at her house, she was still showing signs of some sort of allergic reaction that could have had dire consequences.

"Complications that could have turned life threatening,” Martinez said.

The girl was taken by ambulance back to the hospital and the couple was taken to jail. The 8-year-old girl is not the child of the mother’s boyfriend. Herderner and Rivera, however, do have an 18-month-old child together. Both children are in the care and custody of DCF.

Adriyanna Herdener was released on her own recognizance and her boyfriend was released with $20,000 bond. Eyewitness News tried to contact both of them, but was unable to reach them.
http://www.wftv.com/news/21273709/detail.html


I also found a comment on a blog which states:
Quote
There is MUCH more to it…. Little Yanna had soap-bubbles coming out of her eyes and nose.. Adriyanna has raised that poor child in soup kitchens and assistance offices… She has mental problems and should have had the child removed long ago… She would yell at her in a voice that you would expect from special effects dept horror movies… Terrible situation- and Wilfredo is not even her father…. wonder where Patrick is? They deserved to be arrested… anyone who raises children in that type of poverty and environment needs it….
http://www.crimerant.com/?p=1757



Quote
On the, surface one might think washing a child’s mouth out with soap is no crime, but the rest of the story changes that.

32-year-old Adriyanna Herdener, deferred punishment to her live-in boyfriend, 41-year-old Wilfredo Rivera. After all, he was the father of their 18-month-old daughter and, as Herdener told police, “the head of the household.”

The 8 year-old daughter of Herdener apparently said some bad words.  Rivera grabbed a bar of Irish Spring and told the child – not wash her mouth out – but to EAT the bar of soap.

Herdener watched for 10 minutes as her asthmatic 8 year-old daughter chewed on this bar of soap (containing poisonous anti bacterial ingredients); crying and begging to stop the torture.  The girl began foaming at the mouth and vomited.  Herdener made her child clean-up her own vomit.  Rivera laughed at the girl.

The child then went into anaphylactic shock and her mouth and throat began to swell.  Herdner told Rivera to take her to the hospital so she didn’t have to deal with child services.  Rivera took the child to the ER, but once he realized they were calling police he grabbed the girl and bolted.  He took her back home.

When police arrived Herdner said she had given her some Benadryl and put her to bed.  They found her in bed wheezing.

The soap punishment rose to the level of a crime because of the malicious torture involved and the protection and help the mother failed to provide to her child.

The 8 year-old and the 18 month-old are in protective custody.
http://badbreeders.net/tag/bad-boyfriend/



Quote
Washing your mouth out with soap for cursing is a punishment from the old days, but it landed a Florida couple in jail.

According to police, the mother's boyfriend Wilfredo Rivera made the girl chew on soap for 10 minutes. This all happened while the mother, Adriyanna Herdener watched.

Investigators in Orlando say the child was crying, vomiting, and foaming at the mouth. According to police, the boyfriend wouldn't let the girl rinse out her mouth until she cleaned up her mess.

Reports state the child's lips, throat, and tongue became swollen and was in pain. That's when the mom asked her boyfriend to take the 8 year old to the hospital. Herdener didn't go to the hospital because she didn't want to deal with DCF. But DCF was called and both mom and the boyfriend were arrested.

According to DCF, the couple has a lengthy history of complaints.
http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/64329887.html

Cry  Cry  Cry
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« Reply #96 on: January 16, 2010, 07:19:21 PM »

I thought from the beginning that it was pretty obvious that if a child had had to be hospitalised for this, the punishment had gone too far and was abuse rather than discipline.  Angry Wiping a bar of soap over the tongue is one thing, but holding it in the mouth for ten minutes!!?? Poor little girl.  Cry
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 07:22:21 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: January 16, 2010, 10:05:31 PM »


Using soap as a deterrent is no more a crime

What is established as a crime and what should be a crime are often two very different things.
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« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2010, 05:09:07 AM »

Treat others like you would be treated. Whoever harms little children would better have a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the ocean.

Jesus' teachings should be a basis for raising children.
Soap is a poison if ingested. Please do not abuse children with beatings or forced ingestion of toxic substances.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 05:10:55 AM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2010, 07:36:58 AM »

Its a justifiable thing to say to a child who has filthy speech.


The parent should threaten it, by saying that the child's speech is so filthy, that soap needs to be used to clean its filthiness.


But afterwards the parent should just make him read the Bible.

Go and do 20 prostrations... Now!... You just crucified Jesus Christ again!
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 07:40:01 AM by StJohn978 » Logged
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« Reply #100 on: May 25, 2010, 07:49:29 PM »

Treat others like you would be treated. Whoever harms little children would better have a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the ocean.

Jesus' teachings should be a basis for raising children.
Soap is a poison if ingested. Please do not abuse children with beatings or forced ingestion of toxic substances.

QFT
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« Reply #101 on: May 26, 2010, 03:54:14 AM »

Treat others like you would be treated. Whoever harms little children would better have a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the ocean.

Jesus' teachings should be a basis for raising children.
Soap is a poison if ingested. Please do not abuse children with beatings or forced ingestion of toxic substances.
I don't agree with children using profanity but I would not employ harsh beatings or soap bar in the mouth as a corrective. For small children who are in tantrums or disobedient, I think a tap on the behind (but not a harsh beating)  is OK at times. For profanity, I would go for a talk and discussion and if this did not work, I would go for restricting TV or computer time as punishment. The problem is that profanity is all around them and they will hear it even if they don't want to. There is a whole lot of foul language and profanity in many PG-13 rated movies these days.
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« Reply #102 on: May 26, 2010, 06:49:57 PM »

Treat others like you would be treated. Whoever harms little children would better have a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the ocean.

Jesus' teachings should be a basis for raising children.
Soap is a poison if ingested. Please do not abuse children with beatings or forced ingestion of toxic substances.
I don't agree with children using profanity but I would not employ harsh beatings or soap bar in the mouth as a corrective. For small children who are in tantrums or disobedient, I think a tap on the behind (but not a harsh beating)  is OK at times. For profanity, I would go for a talk and discussion and if this did not work, I would go for restricting TV or computer time as punishment. The problem is that profanity is all around them and they will hear it even if they don't want to. There is a whole lot of foul language and profanity in many PG-13 rated movies these days.

I don't understand people who fret about profanity so much. There seems to be a great quantity of qualitatively worse problems to be worrying about than the common casual and meaningless use of curse words.
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