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Poll
Question: Should parents still wash kids' mouths out with soap?
Yes - 10 (23.8%)
No - 16 (38.1%)
Only if it was for major disrespect - 11 (26.2%)
Never and parents who do should go to to jail - 5 (11.9%)
Total Voters: 42

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« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2010, 07:23:12 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
Which was my point exactly. I hope you don't think I meant anything else.

Oh, hmmm. Right. I just assumed you were contradicting me for some reason.
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« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2010, 08:03:16 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.
I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
Which was my point exactly. I hope you don't think I meant anything else.

Oh, hmmm. Right. I just assumed you were contradicting me for some reason.
My earlier comment was simply intended to point out that society is often too quick to jump on the "abuse wagon" when it comes to children. Many well-meaning parents really do live in fear of the authorities. There is sadly some justification for their fear. While I hope you didn't mean it that way, your comment "parents who do should go to jail" came across to me as being too quick to condemn a parent who is trying his best. I guess I'm somewhat sensitive on the point, having seen too many parents - and their kids - who have suffered because others perceived a situation to be abusive though it was clearly not the case when viewed in the correct context. We must help parents be good parents. On that, I'm sure we agree.
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« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2010, 08:41:15 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
I just can't possibly concieve of how its abusive. Its uncomfortable yes, but all punishments are.
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« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2010, 09:25:10 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.
I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
Which was my point exactly. I hope you don't think I meant anything else.

Oh, hmmm. Right. I just assumed you were contradicting me for some reason.
My earlier comment was simply intended to point out that society is often too quick to jump on the "abuse wagon" when it comes to children. Many well-meaning parents really do live in fear of the authorities. There is sadly some justification for their fear. While I hope you didn't mean it that way, your comment "parents who do should go to jail" came across to me as being too quick to condemn a parent who is trying his best. I guess I'm somewhat sensitive on the point, having seen too many parents - and their kids - who have suffered because others perceived a situation to be abusive though it was clearly not the case when viewed in the correct context. We must help parents be good parents. On that, I'm sure we agree.

That's exactly what I believe, though. I think washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an extreme and abusive form of discipline that should be punished with jail time.
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« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2010, 09:25:53 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
I just can't possibly concieve of how its abusive. Its uncomfortable yes, but all punishments are.

It's demeaning.
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« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2010, 09:54:32 PM »

That's exactly what I believe, though. I think washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an extreme and abusive form of discipline that should be punished with jail time.
That's where we disagree. I believe you're swatting a fly with a sledge hammer. The punishment goes far beyond the offence (I won't use the word "crime" in this context). A drop or two of liquid soap, or a swipe across the mouth with a bar is unpleasant but not harmful to the child. This of course presumes that the child has acted wilfully and defiantly. Action must be taken. You may consider this method of correction to be inappropriate, but "extreme and abusive"?

Fortunately, my own two children, now adults, responded to earlier training and the use of foul language or defiant backtalk was never an issue.

It's the fear of accusations like yours that keeps parents from taking firm action where required. Would you charge a parent who has sent his child to his room with "unlawful confinement"?
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« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2010, 10:10:05 PM »

This is a very healthy practice, I rather put the bar of soap on my children's mouths, than send them to "counceling" and "therapies" where they will be brainwashed with the heresies contained in psychology and psychiatry.

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« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2010, 10:18:10 PM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.
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« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2010, 11:42:47 PM »

This is a very healthy practice, I rather put the bar of soap on my children's mouths, than send them to "counceling" and "therapies" where they will be brainwashed with the heresies contained in psychology and psychiatry.

Well that settles it, everyone. IPC endorsed it, so now we all know there's something wrong with it.  Wink
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« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2010, 01:24:11 AM »


It's the fear of accusations like yours that keeps parents from taking firm action where required.

There are plenty of more appropriate consequences that could be developed other than this. It seems obviously unreasonable and unloving to me.


Would you charge a parent who has sent his child to his room with "unlawful confinement"?

No. And I don't see how one could reasonably compare a time-out to washing a kid's mouth with soap.
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« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2010, 01:25:04 AM »


This is a very healthy practice, I rather put the bar of soap on my children's mouths, than send them to "counceling" and "therapies" where they will be brainwashed with the heresies contained in psychology and psychiatry.

What sorts of heresies are you talking about?
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« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2010, 01:25:57 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.
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« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2010, 01:38:15 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.
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« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2010, 01:56:44 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.

I find your view sickening.
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« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2010, 02:06:07 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.

I find your view sickening.

What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
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« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2010, 02:10:41 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.

I find your view sickening.

What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.

Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?
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« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2010, 02:14:09 AM »

Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

You seem to think that the belt or soap was the first stop in punishment. It wasn't. As I noted above, both punishments were preceded with several warnings and I was well aware at the time that the punishment was earned, it was not done out of malice but out of love.
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« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2010, 02:15:50 AM »

Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

You seem to think that the belt or soap was the first stop in punishment. It wasn't. As I noted above, both punishments were preceded with several warnings and I was well aware at the time that the punishment was earned, it was not done out of malice but out of love.

I honestly don't believe that it is possible for either act to be purely loving.
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« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2010, 02:24:06 AM »

Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

You seem to think that the belt or soap was the first stop in punishment. It wasn't. As I noted above, both punishments were preceded with several warnings and I was well aware at the time that the punishment was earned, it was not done out of malice but out of love.

I honestly don't believe that it is possible for either act to be purely loving.

Well I'm beginning to wonder what you think IS a loving punishment...
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« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2010, 02:49:47 AM »

Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

You seem to think that the belt or soap was the first stop in punishment. It wasn't. As I noted above, both punishments were preceded with several warnings and I was well aware at the time that the punishment was earned, it was not done out of malice but out of love.

I honestly don't believe that it is possible for either act to be purely loving.

Well I'm beginning to wonder what you think IS a loving punishment...

There are various correctional methods related to taking away the material things that kids want, for one thing.
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« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2010, 02:52:18 AM »

There are various correctional methods related to taking away the material things that kids want, for one thing.

Yes, that often works well in conjunction with beating the crap out of them.
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« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2010, 03:00:13 AM »

There are various correctional methods related to taking away the material things that kids want, for one thing.

Yes, that often works well in conjunction with beating the crap out of them.

I'm not saying beating kids doesn't work.

I'm just saying regardless of that matter it is unloving and immoral.
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« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2010, 03:08:03 AM »

Proverbs 13:24 anyone??
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« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2010, 03:14:10 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.

I find your view sickening.

What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.

I had my mouth washed out with soap once by the most loving, caring, wonderful mother a child could ask for. I certainly deserved it- but all I kept thinking was, "this doesn't make any sense"- meaning, this doesn't reflect my mother's character. She felt uncomfortable about it, and I felt confused and alone.

All that aside- any good parent, who has raised their children correctly and without harsh punishments, will not have children with the characteristics you describe. The only circumstances under which I would wash my kid's mouth out with soap is if he started to turn into a boring, mindless, automaton, more concerned with society's standards of "decency" than with cultivating his genuine self. I hope to have punk rock children with a sense of morality that goes beyond "decorum".
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« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2010, 03:27:58 AM »


Proverbs 13:24 anyone??

You, of all people, who was arguing that the Old Testament was incorrect, are arguing to me on the basis of a Proverbs passage?  Huh
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« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2010, 03:33:53 AM »

I had my mouth washed out with soap once by the most loving, caring, wonderful mother a child could ask for. I certainly deserved it- but all I kept thinking was, "this doesn't make any sense"- meaning, this doesn't reflect my mother's character. She felt uncomfortable about it, and I felt confused and alone.

Well I never said parents should like punishing children, did I?? Even for me, that's sadistic and twisted.

Quote
All that aside- any good parent, who has raised their children correctly and without harsh punishments, will not have children with the characteristics you describe.

I certainly don't consider the punishments described to be harsh.

Quote
The only circumstances under which I would wash my kid's mouth out with soap is if he started to turn into a boring, mindless, automaton, more concerned with society's standards of "decency" than with cultivating his genuine self.

Have you worked retail at all in the last decade or so??

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I hope to have punk rock children with a sense of morality that goes beyond "decorum".

I'm all for personal expression, as long as it comes with respect for others (especially elders) as well as manners and courtesy.
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« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2010, 03:34:37 AM »


Proverbs 13:24 anyone??

You, of all people, who was arguing that the Old Testament was incorrect, are arguing to me on the basis of a Proverbs passage?  Huh

I argued that the OT was inaccurate on its portrayal of God....I didn't say anything about Proverbs.
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« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2010, 03:35:44 AM »

I argued that the OT was inaccurate on its portrayal of God....I didn't say anything about Proverbs.

Why not?  Take what you like; leave what you don't.  Sounds like my kind of religion!
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« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2010, 03:47:51 AM »

Why not?  Take what you like; leave what you don't.  Sounds like my kind of religion!

Actually there is a distinction be made here, that you either can't see or are just being difficult. My issue with the OT is that it was written before the Incarnation and as a result can not be expected to accurately portray God, as the Lord clearly said that no one could come to the Father except through Him. We are not speaking of God in Proverbs 13:24, we are speaking of morality. I am not claiming that this verse is applicable to every situation nor that a parent should beat a child mercilessly. It could very well be that this verse is totally off base. But it does say something and it is important to have it in the conversation, just as it is important to have OT interpretations of the God in a relevant discussion. It may be incorrect and incomplete, but at least its there.
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« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2010, 04:31:28 AM »


Proverbs 13:24 anyone??

You, of all people, who was arguing that the Old Testament was incorrect, are arguing to me on the basis of a Proverbs passage?  Huh

I argued that the OT was inaccurate on its portrayal of God....I didn't say anything about Proverbs.

Proverbs is part of the OT.
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« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2010, 04:34:06 AM »

It may be incorrect and incomplete, but at least its there.

Such reverence for the Holy Scriptures!
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« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2010, 04:35:20 AM »


We are not speaking of God in Proverbs 13:24, we are speaking of morality.

If the OT's depiction of God was deficient than probably so was it's depiction of God's morality.


It could very well be that this verse is totally off base.

Oh, sorry, I thought you were prooftexting or something like that.
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« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2010, 05:07:39 AM »

Such reverence for the Holy Scriptures!

I kiss the Holy Gospel every Divine Liturgy. I don't recall ever venerating the Old Testament at Church. And that doesn't mean that the Old Testament isn't part of of the Holy Scriptures. But there is nothing that requires us to believe in a literal story of Jonah inside a whale for three days, and there is a whole lot that requires us to believe that God the Son became Incarnate, died on the Cross, and rose on the Third Day....
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« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2010, 09:58:45 AM »

I find your view sickening.
What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children.
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« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2010, 11:25:37 AM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
I just can't possibly concieve of how its abusive. Its uncomfortable yes, but all punishments are.

It's demeaning.
All punishment is demeaning. It teaches us humility.
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« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2010, 11:26:40 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.

I find your view sickening.

What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!
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« Reply #81 on: January 15, 2010, 06:16:14 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
I just can't possibly concieve of how its abusive. Its uncomfortable yes, but all punishments are.

It's demeaning.
All punishment is demeaning. It teaches us humility.

I'm inclined to think that forcing demeaning things upon people is inherently sinful.
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« Reply #82 on: January 15, 2010, 06:16:37 PM »

I find your view sickening.
What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children.

Why would such a thing be necessary?
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« Reply #83 on: January 15, 2010, 08:25:40 PM »

I find your view sickening.
What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children.

Why would such a thing be necessary?
Because you implied that there's such thing as a "Middle Way"?
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« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2010, 08:51:42 PM »

I find your view sickening.
What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children.

Why would such a thing be necessary?
Because you implied that there's such thing as a "Middle Way"?

I was referring to the second part. Having an idea of a Middle Way of parenting between, essentially physical abuse, and nothing, shouldn't require experience with raising children.
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« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2010, 10:17:02 PM »

I was referring to the second part. Having an idea of a Middle Way of parenting between, essentially physical abuse, and nothing, shouldn't require experience with raising children.

Soap in the mouth is physical abuse??  Shocked
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« Reply #86 on: January 15, 2010, 10:46:24 PM »

I find your view sickening.
What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children.

Why would such a thing be necessary?
Because you implied that there's such thing as a "Middle Way"?

I was referring to the second part. Having an idea of a Middle Way of parenting between, essentially physical abuse, and nothing, shouldn't require experience with raising children.

I'm looking for evidence that your version of a "Middle Way" (which you still haven't described) is a successful method of parenting. Theories are not evidence.
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« Reply #87 on: January 15, 2010, 11:02:33 PM »

But you didn't answer my question that was necessary to qualify the rightfulness of your question.
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« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2010, 12:13:11 AM »

But you didn't answer my question that was necessary to qualify the rightfulness of your question.
Whose question?  I don't see genesisone asking you a question.  I am the one who asked you a question, and I meant it only to be rhetorical.
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« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2010, 12:19:28 AM »

But you didn't answer my question that was necessary to qualify the rightfulness of your question.
Whose question?  I don't see genesisone asking you a question.  I am the one who asked you a question, and I meant it only to be rhetorical.

"Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children."

Not a question, per say, but certainly a request for information, that could easily be phrased as a question.
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