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Poll
Question: Should parents still wash kids' mouths out with soap?
Yes - 10 (23.8%)
No - 16 (38.1%)
Only if it was for major disrespect - 11 (26.2%)
Never and parents who do should go to to jail - 5 (11.9%)
Total Voters: 42

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Author Topic: Should parents still wash kids' mouths out with soap?  (Read 25732 times) Average Rating: 0
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scamandrius
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« on: October 14, 2009, 11:31:39 AM »

A mother was arrested for washing her 8 year old's mouth out with soap.  I don't know about the rest of you, but my mom did this to me, only once.  Even though she regrets doing so, she said she had to because she had to follow through.  I told her "no" on too many occasions and the next time I did, I got it.  And it was liquid soap too. I had to spend the rest of the day trying to get the taste out.  I think I was eight too.

Here's the article and the source:  http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local-beat/Mom-Arrested-for-Washing-Kids-Mouth-With-Soap--64112132.html

A Palm Bay woman and her boyfriend were arrested Monday for child abuse after the couple went old school to punish their 8-year-old daughter for swearing.

They washed her mouth out with soap.

We don't know about you, but we would petition President Obama and Congress to make it mandatory for every parent to carry a bar of Irish Spring in their back pockets with all the profanity kids use today.

Police claim Adriyanna Herdener and Wilfredo Rivera went too far by placing a bar of soap in the girl's mouth and letting it stay for 10 minutes. Herdener did not intervene in the discipline.

The girl eventually vomited and Rivera took her to the local hospital, where hospital staff called police.

No one wants a child to be hurt or inhumanely punished, but parents' discipline choices in this country have come down to calling Dr. Phil or hiding the joysticks to the Wii.

Next time your kid has a potty mouth, just give them some gum.
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 11:42:13 AM »

I got the soap on the toothbrush once growing up. Once was enough.
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 12:23:58 PM »


My  mother had a thin wooden branch (switch) with my name on it.  It was always standing behind her bedroom door.

All she had to do was give me that look...and remind me about the switch.

It was enough.

She never had to use it...but, the threat was there.

I think today's kids get off too easy.  They have no discipline and are completely spoiled.  They have no respect for anything or anyone.

Of course there are those angels, like my godkids, who always behave and listen to their elders...and never require punishment of any kind!   Wink



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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 01:11:41 PM »

I vaguely remember my mother washing my mouth out with soap and a dishrag, but I don't remember why.

Normally, we were just terrified of my father yelling (he rarely laid a hand on us because he didn't have to).  The classic, "Wait until your father gets home..." was enough to keep most of us in line.

Of course, I had my next oldest brother, the proverbial black sheep, to watch get punished over and over for acting a fool.  I learned more from him than anything Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 01:22:21 PM »

The fact that they ended up taking her to the hospital tells you whether or not this was good idea.  Shocked
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 02:34:00 PM »

^I had my mouth washed out and I wasn't taken to the hospital.  Perhaps it was an isolated incident. I'm going to assume you're the one who voted that parents who do this should go to jail.
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 02:47:12 PM »

I heard a young child cuss his daddy the other day and all the daddy did was try to placate the child with gum.  Amazing!!  I think the child needed way more attention of a different kind while daddy is the one who needed to be taken out to the woodshed!!
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 02:48:37 PM »

I had my mouth washed out with soap once, when I said that a woman in a movie was "a slut". Good times, good times...

Anyway, I don't have a problem with parents who use soap, though I don't know that I would use it.
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 03:26:57 PM »

I never got it but I think I was threatened with it once. Maybe I would be better off if my mother had washed my mouth out with soap when I was younger since I have a problem with swearing these days but I am getting better at catching my self when they slip out. I think the government should just let parents raise their own kids unless if the parents are being abusive but I hardly see spanking or washing the mouth out with soap as something that would qualify as abuse.
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 05:27:50 PM »

Don't ever, ever do anything to a child that causes them to be hospitalized. That's not discipline; it's not even human.
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2009, 05:49:38 PM »

There is a difference between washing the mouth for several seconds and carrying soap brick in mouth for 10 minutes.
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 06:05:56 PM »

There is a difference between washing the mouth for several seconds and carrying soap brick in mouth for 10 minutes.
That's my objection as well.  To apply soap to the child's mouth just long enough to leave a bad taste--let's say a few seconds--may be acceptable discipline for cussing or lying.  To keep the soap in the child's mouth for 10 minutes until the child vomits and needs to be taken to the hospital is beyond abusive in its excess and should be prosecuted as criminal.

Therefore, I would say that the quoted article and the poll based upon it both miss the whole point of why the parents were arrested for child abuse.
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 06:27:22 PM »

Well, I must admit that I just scanned the article and posts and missed the part about the child going to the hospital. I guess I just assumed that this was another regular "would you discipline your kids this way?" thread, and didn't think it had something as serious as it did Lips Sealed
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 06:58:58 PM »

Don't ever, ever do anything to a child that causes them to be hospitalized. That's not discipline; it's not even human.

I agree. Strange that a child uttering obscenities would bring out such inhuman behaviour. And surely by 8 years old a child can be disciplined by means other than physical? I remember our son letting rip with the *F* word on the front steps of church one morning; something the "little darling" had picked up from school. He was only about 6 at the time, and though that word seems to enjoy common usage these days, back then it was quite shocking. So we had some fairly stern words with him about it, and told him it is a no-no. When he said it again, he was deprived of his favourite tv shows for some time. Of course, that probably only taught him not to say that word again within our hearing - or on the front steps of church. Wink
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 08:44:16 PM »

Therefore, I would say that the quoted article and the poll based upon it both miss the whole point of why the parents were arrested for child abuse.
Exactly. This article, and the issue it covers, have nothing to do with discipline.
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2009, 09:21:43 PM »

^I had my mouth washed out and I wasn't taken to the hospital.  Perhaps it was an isolated incident. I'm going to assume you're the one who voted that parents who do this should go to jail.
You would be wrong. I haven't voted in this poll.
I guess if the child had vomited while she still had the bar of soap in her mouth and had choked on her vomit you would consider this succesful parenting since dead children can't swear anymore?
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2009, 09:35:46 PM »

A bar of soap for a few seconds is one thing, but TEN minutes! The state was correct in arresting the parents.

There is a differance between discipline and abuse.

On a lighter note, don't we all know that soap poisoning leads to blindness? Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNX9WOIDJV8
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2009, 11:10:32 PM »

Don't ever, ever do anything to a child that causes them to be hospitalized. That's not discipline; it's not even human.

Well, I guess contact sports are out of the question now.
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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2009, 11:12:52 PM »

[I guess if the child had vomited while she still had the bar of soap in her mouth and had choked on her vomit you would consider this succesful parenting since dead children can't swear anymore?

Screw you, Tallitot.  I support spanking children, too.  Successful parenting must also involve successful correction but that does not mean inflicting harm resulting in death. How dare you suggest such is how I would handle children of my own. 
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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2009, 11:15:39 PM »

Don't ever, ever do anything to a child that causes them to be hospitalized. That's not discipline; it's not even human.

Well, I guess contact sports are out of the question now.

When someone gets hurt playing sports it's usually an accident. When someone becomes ill by having a substance not meant for ingestion put in thier mouth, that's a reasonably forseable consequence.

^ gee looks like scamandrius needs go wash his own mouth out with soap...but i bet he won't
 Since this post is fundamentally no different from the post that got scamandrius on Post Moderation, it's only fair that you should also receive a 40-day formal warning for your ad hominem attack on scamandrius.  Since this is only your first offense in this feud, however, you will still be able to post without your posts being screened for content.  If you continue your attack on scamandrius as he did toward you, though, you will also be placed on Post Moderation.

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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2009, 11:38:36 PM »

The alcohol content of foaming and gel soaps is >40%.  Psych hospitals cannot stock this soap.  Patients swipe it to get drunk.
If you washed your child's mouth out with this, your child could end up in the ER with a BAC "over the legal limit" and very ill.  This would definitely be child abuse. It is mandatory to report it. Your child will go immediately to foster care and end up there for months.
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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2009, 11:50:23 PM »

Don't ever, ever do anything to a child that causes them to be hospitalized. That's not discipline; it's not even human.

Well, I guess contact sports are out of the question now.

When someone gets hurt playing sports it's usually an accident. When someone becomes ill by having a substance not meant for ingestion put in thier mouth, that's a reasonably forseable consequence.

^ gee looks like scamandrius needs go wash his own mouth out with soap...but i bet he won't

You should wash out your own because of your slanderous comment towards me.  But, I bet you won't.
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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2009, 09:05:35 AM »

I think 10 minutes is a little excessive for soap, but at the same time, I think they overreacted by taking the kid to the hospital.... Seriously, its soap..... Of course its going to cause the child to vomit.... I had my mouth washed out with soap once, it wasn't pleasant (I think it was lava soap, with pumice power). I vomited afterword, but that was that and I learned a lesson. No offense to other parents, but taking away the games or a stern talking to doesn't necessarily do anything to change behavior. Sometimes it takes a little more for the child to see and understand. Much like the child who doesn't learn that the stove has an open flame that will burn you no matter how many times you tell them... They need the experience before it finally gets into their head.

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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2009, 09:22:30 AM »

^ I agree that children do need to see the consequences of their actions (and the younger the child, the more necessary it is that those consequences be immediate). There is a difference, however, between allowing the child to experience the natural consequences of their actions (e.g. the stove) and actually inflicting those consequences on the child. Even the latter, however, can be permissible if it is done with restraint and in the best interest of the child. In education, we have a rule that we follow in discipline, that we use the least amount of discipline necessary to correct the student's behaviour. It's really easy to go overboard with children, and we adults who care for children must practice proper restraint.
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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2009, 03:37:20 PM »

Wash the profanity right out of that mouth!  police

It took about ten separate times for me to get the message (I was a stubborn kid) and after that I would get warned once and then no more disrespect from me.

Although with the article, ten minutes is a bit excessive.  That's either abuse or just stupid parenting or both. Thirty seconds is sufficient.  One minute if excessive.  Two minutes is the absolute most for things like F-bombs.  Either way, it'd better be some nasty tasting bar soap like Dial or something like that and none of those fruit smelling soaps.
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2009, 05:13:51 PM »

^ I agree that children do need to see the consequences of their actions (and the younger the child, the more necessary it is that those consequences be immediate). There is a difference, however, between allowing the child to experience the natural consequences of their actions (e.g. the stove) and actually inflicting those consequences on the child. Even the latter, however, can be permissible if it is done with restraint and in the best interest of the child. In education, we have a rule that we follow in discipline, that we use the least amount of discipline necessary to correct the student's behaviour. It's really easy to go overboard with children, and we adults who care for children must practice proper restraint.

And the problem with going overboard with a minor offence like swearing (and that's how I see it), is that one leaves oneself little room for ratchetting up the levels of punishment when really important offenses are committed. No offence to other parents, but I, personally, consider such a punishment invasive, abusive and puritanical. And by 8 years old I would imagine that a child can be reasoned with, not bullied. The offensive nature of their speech can be explained; how it offends other people and is unacceptable behaviour. That's what my parents did, when I picked up a naughty word at school. I felt shame, rather than pain. So going for the jugular, so to speak, seems excessive. Still, I suppose it does depend on the maturity of both parent and child and if one chooses to take easy options rather than the time to develop a child who will consider the feelings of others as more important than the discomfort of some archaic punishment. 
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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2009, 05:33:04 PM »

^ I agree that children do need to see the consequences of their actions (and the younger the child, the more necessary it is that those consequences be immediate). There is a difference, however, between allowing the child to experience the natural consequences of their actions (e.g. the stove) and actually inflicting those consequences on the child. Even the latter, however, can be permissible if it is done with restraint and in the best interest of the child. In education, we have a rule that we follow in discipline, that we use the least amount of discipline necessary to correct the student's behaviour. It's really easy to go overboard with children, and we adults who care for children must practice proper restraint.

How strange. I lost the first post, so I thought and had to rewrite..... Then both posts appear...... Huh Huh Sorry about that, but I have no idea what happened.
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« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2009, 09:17:14 AM »

And the problem with going overboard with a minor offence like swearing (and that's how I see it), is that one leaves oneself little room for ratchetting up the levels of punishment when really important offenses are committed.
Exactly. Kids will push the limits, and if you've already reached yours, they will push to see what's next.

Quote
The offensive nature of their speech can be explained; how it offends other people and is unacceptable behaviour. That's what my parents did, when I picked up a naughty word at school. I felt shame, rather than pain.
I remember picking up an offensive word in third grade, and because I thought it was cool, started using it all the time. My dad solved this problem by simply telling me what it meant. I was so embarrassed that I didn't use it again.

For me, when I choose to discipline children for language depends largely on their intentions. If the child intended to provoke, I will punish the offence. If, however, they were simply frustrated and careless, I may send them to the counselor to blow off steam or another appropriate punishment. Attitude makes a big difference with me.

How strange. I lost the first post, so I thought and had to rewrite..... Then both posts appear...... Huh Huh Sorry about that, but I have no idea what happened.
That's happened to me before too. I'm not sure what causes it.
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« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2009, 09:23:38 AM »

We used Listerine Mouthwash, the old brown or golden type with a little water to weaken it.  It works better than soap and is of course a true mouthwash and not a misuse of an item. it had the same effect  as soap for our 5  kids  (now adults aged 25-33). We found that they  at least watched their words around us and other adults, even to this day my kids will not use language  around their mother and myself that they have not heard us use. The use of a mouthwash is a form of "aversion therapy" and still utilized by both psychologists and psychiatrist as well as in schools as an option to heavier discipline in order to change anti-social or improper behavior.

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« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2009, 01:22:38 PM »

We used Listerine Mouthwash, the old brown or golden type with a little water to weaken it.  It works better than soap and is of course a true mouthwash and not a misuse of an item. it had the same effect  as soap for our 5  kids  (now adults aged 25-33). We found that they  at least watched their words around us and other adults, even to this day my kids will not use language  around their mother and myself that they have not heard us use. The use of a mouthwash is a form of "aversion therapy" and still utilized by both psychologists and psychiatrist as well as in schools as an option to heavier discipline in order to change anti-social or improper behavior.

Thomas
Well, I guess you could say that foul language is, in a way, another form of bad breath. Wink
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« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2009, 07:05:26 PM »

I remember picking up an offensive word in third grade, and because I thought it was cool, started using it all the time. My dad solved this problem by simply telling me what it meant. I was so embarrassed that I didn't use it again.

Yes, that can do it!  laugh

Quote
For me, when I choose to discipline children for language depends largely on their intentions. If the child intended to provoke, I will punish the offence. If, however, they were simply frustrated and careless, I may send them to the counselor to blow off steam or another appropriate punishment. Attitude makes a big difference with me.

I agree.

Quote
How strange. I lost the first post, so I thought and had to rewrite..... Then both posts appear...... Huh Huh Sorry about that, but I have no idea what happened.
That's happened to me before too. I'm not sure what causes it.

Glad to know it happens to others. I thought it was due to my technological inadequacies.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2009, 07:06:29 PM »

We used Listerine Mouthwash, the old brown or golden type with a little water to weaken it.  It works better than soap and is of course a true mouthwash and not a misuse of an item. it had the same effect  as soap for our 5  kids  (now adults aged 25-33). We found that they  at least watched their words around us and other adults, even to this day my kids will not use language  around their mother and myself that they have not heard us use. The use of a mouthwash is a form of "aversion therapy" and still utilized by both psychologists and psychiatrist as well as in schools as an option to heavier discipline in order to change anti-social or improper behavior.

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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2010, 04:19:36 AM »

My mum tried that once with me, and I ate the whole bar, told her it was delicious, and asked her for more (all with a smirk on my face). Then dad came home, got the strap, and I lost the smirk real quick!!!!!
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2010, 05:24:39 AM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2010, 07:33:11 AM »

We used Listerine Mouthwash, the old brown or golden type with a little water to weaken it.  It works better than soap and is of course a true mouthwash and not a misuse of an item. it had the same effect  as soap for our 5  kids  (now adults aged 25-33). We found that they  at least watched their words around us and other adults, even to this day my kids will not use language  around their mother and myself that they have not heard us use. The use of a mouthwash is a form of "aversion therapy" and still utilized by both psychologists and psychiatrist as well as in schools as an option to heavier discipline in order to change anti-social or improper behavior.

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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2010, 10:16:54 AM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2010, 11:16:36 AM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.
A little know secret is that none other than the Supreme Court of the U.S. condemned the doctrine of "Pater Patriae" (the legal basis of the state acting as a parent) as of murky origin and promoting "kangaroo courts' (that's a quote from a decision: In in re Gault, 387 U.S. 1).
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2010, 12:47:34 PM »

This sort of punshment was unheard of in my country. It is also a country far more tolerant of swearing even with kids. Yet beating was common, and I and my siblings had a fair share of it, both from parents and grandparents. T o that end special sticks were cut from the woods and always kept at hand inside the house. St. Nicholas would always provide a few sticks  like these. Once grandfather used a broomstick.
Here I am still, and I don't hate any of them for having given us a beating every now and then, as kids.
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« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2010, 05:15:37 PM »

As a teacher, I have to agree that it gets really old having to raise peoples' kids for them. They don't discipline at home and have no structure in their lives at all. So this leaves the burden on myself and other teachers to discipline kids and help keep them from anti-social beahaviors. That being said, because the parents are afraid to discipline I am as strict as nails in my class. I some times say that my ninth graders are not allowed to breath unless I say so. It makes for a very ordered classroom with few, if any behavior problems. I wasn't always like this. When I first started teaching I governed by hippie nonsense that we learned in our education courses. I learned quickly that such silliness does not work. Each year that I have taught, I have become stricter and stricter. The result: My students are very well behaved in class, are becoming more independent learners (not relying on copying the paper of the student in the next desk) and my students grades and scores have improved.

So, I say, "Yes, wash their mouths out with soap when they are disrespectful, curse, or say unkind things to or about others."
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« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2010, 05:27:14 PM »

My parents, instead of using soap, had me eat a spoonful of Vietnamese chili sauce (the Sriracha brand in the big bottle with the rooster).
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« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2010, 05:28:33 PM »

My parents, instead of using soap, had me eat a spoonful of Vietnamese chili sauce (the Sriracha brand in the big bottle with the rooster).
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« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2010, 05:52:08 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
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« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2010, 05:57:41 PM »

My parents, instead of using soap, had me eat a spoonful of Vietnamese chili sauce (the Sriracha brand in the big bottle with the rooster).

My sister-in-law's mother used to do this with the brood of grandchildren (nine at its height) she used to watch during the day.  It worked on most of them, but backfired on my niece and nephew: they now can't get enough of Sriracha and other hot sauces. Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2010, 06:09:07 PM »

10 minutes?  And what kind of soap were they using?  Since the hospital called child protective services about this, I suspect that something more, and worse, happened than a simple punishment with a bad-tasting but harmless substance.  Some soaps are poisonous if ingested in quantity, after all.  (And others you could eat or drink and only get a mild stomachache.) 

I don't condemn the general practice of "washing mouth out with soap" for certain offensives in certain cases.  But I think that there is more to this story than we've learned yet.
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« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2010, 06:57:18 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
Which was my point exactly. I hope you don't think I meant anything else.
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« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2010, 07:23:12 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
Which was my point exactly. I hope you don't think I meant anything else.

Oh, hmmm. Right. I just assumed you were contradicting me for some reason.
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« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2010, 08:03:16 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.
I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
Which was my point exactly. I hope you don't think I meant anything else.

Oh, hmmm. Right. I just assumed you were contradicting me for some reason.
My earlier comment was simply intended to point out that society is often too quick to jump on the "abuse wagon" when it comes to children. Many well-meaning parents really do live in fear of the authorities. There is sadly some justification for their fear. While I hope you didn't mean it that way, your comment "parents who do should go to jail" came across to me as being too quick to condemn a parent who is trying his best. I guess I'm somewhat sensitive on the point, having seen too many parents - and their kids - who have suffered because others perceived a situation to be abusive though it was clearly not the case when viewed in the correct context. We must help parents be good parents. On that, I'm sure we agree.
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« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2010, 08:41:15 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
I just can't possibly concieve of how its abusive. Its uncomfortable yes, but all punishments are.
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« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2010, 09:25:10 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.
I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
Which was my point exactly. I hope you don't think I meant anything else.

Oh, hmmm. Right. I just assumed you were contradicting me for some reason.
My earlier comment was simply intended to point out that society is often too quick to jump on the "abuse wagon" when it comes to children. Many well-meaning parents really do live in fear of the authorities. There is sadly some justification for their fear. While I hope you didn't mean it that way, your comment "parents who do should go to jail" came across to me as being too quick to condemn a parent who is trying his best. I guess I'm somewhat sensitive on the point, having seen too many parents - and their kids - who have suffered because others perceived a situation to be abusive though it was clearly not the case when viewed in the correct context. We must help parents be good parents. On that, I'm sure we agree.

That's exactly what I believe, though. I think washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an extreme and abusive form of discipline that should be punished with jail time.
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« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2010, 09:25:53 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
I just can't possibly concieve of how its abusive. Its uncomfortable yes, but all punishments are.

It's demeaning.
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« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2010, 09:54:32 PM »

That's exactly what I believe, though. I think washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an extreme and abusive form of discipline that should be punished with jail time.
That's where we disagree. I believe you're swatting a fly with a sledge hammer. The punishment goes far beyond the offence (I won't use the word "crime" in this context). A drop or two of liquid soap, or a swipe across the mouth with a bar is unpleasant but not harmful to the child. This of course presumes that the child has acted wilfully and defiantly. Action must be taken. You may consider this method of correction to be inappropriate, but "extreme and abusive"?

Fortunately, my own two children, now adults, responded to earlier training and the use of foul language or defiant backtalk was never an issue.

It's the fear of accusations like yours that keeps parents from taking firm action where required. Would you charge a parent who has sent his child to his room with "unlawful confinement"?
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« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2010, 10:10:05 PM »

This is a very healthy practice, I rather put the bar of soap on my children's mouths, than send them to "counceling" and "therapies" where they will be brainwashed with the heresies contained in psychology and psychiatry.

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« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2010, 10:18:10 PM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.
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« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2010, 11:42:47 PM »

This is a very healthy practice, I rather put the bar of soap on my children's mouths, than send them to "counceling" and "therapies" where they will be brainwashed with the heresies contained in psychology and psychiatry.

Well that settles it, everyone. IPC endorsed it, so now we all know there's something wrong with it.  Wink
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« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2010, 01:24:11 AM »


It's the fear of accusations like yours that keeps parents from taking firm action where required.

There are plenty of more appropriate consequences that could be developed other than this. It seems obviously unreasonable and unloving to me.


Would you charge a parent who has sent his child to his room with "unlawful confinement"?

No. And I don't see how one could reasonably compare a time-out to washing a kid's mouth with soap.
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« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2010, 01:25:04 AM »


This is a very healthy practice, I rather put the bar of soap on my children's mouths, than send them to "counceling" and "therapies" where they will be brainwashed with the heresies contained in psychology and psychiatry.

What sorts of heresies are you talking about?
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« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2010, 01:25:57 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.
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« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2010, 01:38:15 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.
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« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2010, 01:56:44 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.

I find your view sickening.
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« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2010, 02:06:07 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.

I find your view sickening.

What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
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« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2010, 02:10:41 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.

I find your view sickening.

What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.

Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?
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« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2010, 02:14:09 AM »

Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

You seem to think that the belt or soap was the first stop in punishment. It wasn't. As I noted above, both punishments were preceded with several warnings and I was well aware at the time that the punishment was earned, it was not done out of malice but out of love.
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« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2010, 02:15:50 AM »

Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

You seem to think that the belt or soap was the first stop in punishment. It wasn't. As I noted above, both punishments were preceded with several warnings and I was well aware at the time that the punishment was earned, it was not done out of malice but out of love.

I honestly don't believe that it is possible for either act to be purely loving.
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« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2010, 02:24:06 AM »

Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

You seem to think that the belt or soap was the first stop in punishment. It wasn't. As I noted above, both punishments were preceded with several warnings and I was well aware at the time that the punishment was earned, it was not done out of malice but out of love.

I honestly don't believe that it is possible for either act to be purely loving.

Well I'm beginning to wonder what you think IS a loving punishment...
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« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2010, 02:49:47 AM »

Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

You seem to think that the belt or soap was the first stop in punishment. It wasn't. As I noted above, both punishments were preceded with several warnings and I was well aware at the time that the punishment was earned, it was not done out of malice but out of love.

I honestly don't believe that it is possible for either act to be purely loving.

Well I'm beginning to wonder what you think IS a loving punishment...

There are various correctional methods related to taking away the material things that kids want, for one thing.
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« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2010, 02:52:18 AM »

There are various correctional methods related to taking away the material things that kids want, for one thing.

Yes, that often works well in conjunction with beating the crap out of them.
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« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2010, 03:00:13 AM »

There are various correctional methods related to taking away the material things that kids want, for one thing.

Yes, that often works well in conjunction with beating the crap out of them.

I'm not saying beating kids doesn't work.

I'm just saying regardless of that matter it is unloving and immoral.
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« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2010, 03:08:03 AM »

Proverbs 13:24 anyone??
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« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2010, 03:14:10 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.

I find your view sickening.

What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.

I had my mouth washed out with soap once by the most loving, caring, wonderful mother a child could ask for. I certainly deserved it- but all I kept thinking was, "this doesn't make any sense"- meaning, this doesn't reflect my mother's character. She felt uncomfortable about it, and I felt confused and alone.

All that aside- any good parent, who has raised their children correctly and without harsh punishments, will not have children with the characteristics you describe. The only circumstances under which I would wash my kid's mouth out with soap is if he started to turn into a boring, mindless, automaton, more concerned with society's standards of "decency" than with cultivating his genuine self. I hope to have punk rock children with a sense of morality that goes beyond "decorum".
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« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2010, 03:27:58 AM »


Proverbs 13:24 anyone??

You, of all people, who was arguing that the Old Testament was incorrect, are arguing to me on the basis of a Proverbs passage?  Huh
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« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2010, 03:33:53 AM »

I had my mouth washed out with soap once by the most loving, caring, wonderful mother a child could ask for. I certainly deserved it- but all I kept thinking was, "this doesn't make any sense"- meaning, this doesn't reflect my mother's character. She felt uncomfortable about it, and I felt confused and alone.

Well I never said parents should like punishing children, did I?? Even for me, that's sadistic and twisted.

Quote
All that aside- any good parent, who has raised their children correctly and without harsh punishments, will not have children with the characteristics you describe.

I certainly don't consider the punishments described to be harsh.

Quote
The only circumstances under which I would wash my kid's mouth out with soap is if he started to turn into a boring, mindless, automaton, more concerned with society's standards of "decency" than with cultivating his genuine self.

Have you worked retail at all in the last decade or so??

Quote
I hope to have punk rock children with a sense of morality that goes beyond "decorum".

I'm all for personal expression, as long as it comes with respect for others (especially elders) as well as manners and courtesy.
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« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2010, 03:34:37 AM »


Proverbs 13:24 anyone??

You, of all people, who was arguing that the Old Testament was incorrect, are arguing to me on the basis of a Proverbs passage?  Huh

I argued that the OT was inaccurate on its portrayal of God....I didn't say anything about Proverbs.
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« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2010, 03:35:44 AM »

I argued that the OT was inaccurate on its portrayal of God....I didn't say anything about Proverbs.

Why not?  Take what you like; leave what you don't.  Sounds like my kind of religion!
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« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2010, 03:47:51 AM »

Why not?  Take what you like; leave what you don't.  Sounds like my kind of religion!

Actually there is a distinction be made here, that you either can't see or are just being difficult. My issue with the OT is that it was written before the Incarnation and as a result can not be expected to accurately portray God, as the Lord clearly said that no one could come to the Father except through Him. We are not speaking of God in Proverbs 13:24, we are speaking of morality. I am not claiming that this verse is applicable to every situation nor that a parent should beat a child mercilessly. It could very well be that this verse is totally off base. But it does say something and it is important to have it in the conversation, just as it is important to have OT interpretations of the God in a relevant discussion. It may be incorrect and incomplete, but at least its there.
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« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2010, 04:31:28 AM »


Proverbs 13:24 anyone??

You, of all people, who was arguing that the Old Testament was incorrect, are arguing to me on the basis of a Proverbs passage?  Huh

I argued that the OT was inaccurate on its portrayal of God....I didn't say anything about Proverbs.

Proverbs is part of the OT.
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« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2010, 04:34:06 AM »

It may be incorrect and incomplete, but at least its there.

Such reverence for the Holy Scriptures!
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« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2010, 04:35:20 AM »


We are not speaking of God in Proverbs 13:24, we are speaking of morality.

If the OT's depiction of God was deficient than probably so was it's depiction of God's morality.


It could very well be that this verse is totally off base.

Oh, sorry, I thought you were prooftexting or something like that.
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« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2010, 05:07:39 AM »

Such reverence for the Holy Scriptures!

I kiss the Holy Gospel every Divine Liturgy. I don't recall ever venerating the Old Testament at Church. And that doesn't mean that the Old Testament isn't part of of the Holy Scriptures. But there is nothing that requires us to believe in a literal story of Jonah inside a whale for three days, and there is a whole lot that requires us to believe that God the Son became Incarnate, died on the Cross, and rose on the Third Day....
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« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2010, 09:58:45 AM »

I find your view sickening.
What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children.
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« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2010, 11:25:37 AM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
I just can't possibly concieve of how its abusive. Its uncomfortable yes, but all punishments are.

It's demeaning.
All punishment is demeaning. It teaches us humility.
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« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2010, 11:26:40 AM »

It's demeaning.

It's also pretty easy to avoid. I don't think any parent would do it without lots of warning.

It's a parent's obligation to find consequences for their child that aren't demeaning.

And after soap in the mouth what's next?? It's not demeaning at all. I don't know how you even get that conclusion. Children who use proper language and observe the boundaries set forth for them will never even have this happen. Decisions have consequences. If a child gets soap once or a belt a few times, its not the end of the world and the child will be better for it, if the parent handles it properly.

I find your view sickening.

What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
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« Reply #81 on: January 15, 2010, 06:16:14 PM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
I just can't possibly concieve of how its abusive. Its uncomfortable yes, but all punishments are.

It's demeaning.
All punishment is demeaning. It teaches us humility.

I'm inclined to think that forcing demeaning things upon people is inherently sinful.
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« Reply #82 on: January 15, 2010, 06:16:37 PM »

I find your view sickening.
What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children.

Why would such a thing be necessary?
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« Reply #83 on: January 15, 2010, 08:25:40 PM »

I find your view sickening.
What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children.

Why would such a thing be necessary?
Because you implied that there's such thing as a "Middle Way"?
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« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2010, 08:51:42 PM »

I find your view sickening.
What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children.

Why would such a thing be necessary?
Because you implied that there's such thing as a "Middle Way"?

I was referring to the second part. Having an idea of a Middle Way of parenting between, essentially physical abuse, and nothing, shouldn't require experience with raising children.
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« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2010, 10:17:02 PM »

I was referring to the second part. Having an idea of a Middle Way of parenting between, essentially physical abuse, and nothing, shouldn't require experience with raising children.

Soap in the mouth is physical abuse??  Shocked
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« Reply #86 on: January 15, 2010, 10:46:24 PM »

I find your view sickening.
What I find sickening is seeing children, teenagers, and young adults who have no concept of discipline, decorum, or common decency.
Yes, and counteracting this does not require beating them with a belt or washing their mouths out with soap. Does no one have a concept of the Middle Way here?

Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children.

Why would such a thing be necessary?
Because you implied that there's such thing as a "Middle Way"?

I was referring to the second part. Having an idea of a Middle Way of parenting between, essentially physical abuse, and nothing, shouldn't require experience with raising children.

I'm looking for evidence that your version of a "Middle Way" (which you still haven't described) is a successful method of parenting. Theories are not evidence.
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« Reply #87 on: January 15, 2010, 11:02:33 PM »

But you didn't answer my question that was necessary to qualify the rightfulness of your question.
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« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2010, 12:13:11 AM »

But you didn't answer my question that was necessary to qualify the rightfulness of your question.
Whose question?  I don't see genesisone asking you a question.  I am the one who asked you a question, and I meant it only to be rhetorical.
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« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2010, 12:19:28 AM »

But you didn't answer my question that was necessary to qualify the rightfulness of your question.
Whose question?  I don't see genesisone asking you a question.  I am the one who asked you a question, and I meant it only to be rhetorical.

"Please describe for us your version of "the Middle Way", and illustrate with examples from your experience in raising children."

Not a question, per say, but certainly a request for information, that could easily be phrased as a question.
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« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2010, 01:03:07 AM »

"Never and parents who do should go to to jail"
I retired from elementary school teaching a couple of years early in part because I was tired of dealing with kids whose parents were scared to death of disciplining their own kids, or allowing anyone else to do the job. I will say, of course, that it was always a delight to work with kids and their parents who had an effective parent-child relationship in which the lines of authority were clear. I saw too many examples of parents who were afraid that they would go to jail, or lose their kids at the least, because of a strong element of "do-gooder" social work that seems to believe that any and all parents are vicious monsters who can't be trusted with their own children. It's really very sad to see how homes have been disrupted by well-meaning parents who feel threatened like that.

Parents need to be given the proper tools to raise their children. And no, I don't mean anything abusive or harmful.

I agree that parents do not provide enough discipline for their children these days. But I also think that washing a kid's mouth out with soap is an abusive form of discipline. It's not like there aren't possibilities in between these two.
I just can't possibly concieve of how its abusive. Its uncomfortable yes, but all punishments are.

It's demeaning.
All punishment is demeaning. It teaches us humility.

I'm inclined to think that forcing demeaning things upon people is inherently sinful.

As a parent, I agree. I have always shown my children respect as human beings and gifts from God.
Discipline does not require humiliation. Discipline is about teaching a child self-control. But if a parent doesn't respect the child's dignity, one will not get far with teaching them self-control.

I just want to add, that if you constantly let your child know how much you love them through your words and actions everyday, they will want to aspire to the goals you set for them in being well-behaved little people. Let them know how precious they are to you always.
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« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2010, 01:17:43 AM »

I never had my mouth "washed out" with soap, per se. However, when I was about seven I decided to see what a bar of soap tasted like. So I bit in to, and chewed a hunk off of a nice pink bar of my great aunt's Camay. The only ill effect I had was a few very quick trips to the loo.

Oh... did I mention it tasted terrible as well.
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« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2010, 02:47:25 AM »

Doesn't "humiliate" mean "to cause humility"?
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« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2010, 05:24:46 AM »

There's more to this story.  This wasn't just a girl who had to sit with a bar of soap in her mouth a la Ralphie:

Video here with important info: http://www2.counton2.com/cbd/news/crime/article/florida_child_suffers_severe_allergic_reaction_to_washing_out_potty_mouth_w/74587/

Quote
A couple is charged with child abuse after an old method of punishment goes wrong.
 
Adriyanna Herdener and her boyfriend, Wilfredo Rivera, are accused of the Friday incident where Rivera allegedly put half a bar of soap in their 8-year-old daughter's mouth because she said an expletive.

The child had to chew the soap for 10 minutes while vomiting, crying and begging to rinse her mouth out.

Investigators said Rivera wouldn't let her until she cleaned up the mess.
 
“When she was asking for relief of her distress, he basically laughed at her and continued on with what he was trying to do,” said Yvonne Martinez, a spokeswoman for the Palm Bay Police Department.

“It's only supposed to be a saying. You're not actually supposed to do that,” said Max Wilkerson, a parent.

Herdener and Rivera are out on bond.

In the meantime, the 8-year-old and the couple's other child are in the custody of the Department of Children and Families.
http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2009/10/12/child_forced_to_chew_soap_as_punishment.html


Quote
An age-old punishment got a 32-year-old mother and her 41-year-old boyfriend from Palm Bay thrown in jail. An 8-year-old girl said a bad word over weekend, so the couple washed her mouth out with soap.

The little girl was hospitalized, but was released and put in the custody of the Department of Children and Families along with a sibling.

While you've probably heard of parents washing their kids’ mouth out with soap, police say in this case it wasn't just a form of discipline, it was abuse.

The couple is in hot water after attempting to discipline the 8-year-old girl using a bar of Irish Spring. Police say Wilfredo Rivera forced the little girl to chew on a half-bar of the green soap for 10 minutes after she said the "F" word.

Police said the little girl was foaming at the mouth and wasn't allowed to wash the soap out until she cleaned up her own vomit.

"The detectives handling this case believed it to the point of abuse, child abuse, and that it was malicious torture,” explained Palm Bay police spokesperson Yvonne Martinez said.

Investigators say Rivera was laughing while the girl's mother did nothing until the couple noticed the girl's lips, throat and tongue were swollen. Then Rivera took her to Palm Bay Community Hospital.

However, police say, Rivera didn't stay to get her any help and left after he found out hospital staff called authorities, including the Florida Department of Children and Families.


Their landlord said Rivera told him they left because their daughter wanted to leave.

"He told me that the child was hungry and he said he knew she wasn't hungry because he had fed her something,” landlord Darwyn Rushing said.

When police discovered the girl at her house, she was still showing signs of some sort of allergic reaction that could have had dire consequences.

"Complications that could have turned life threatening,” Martinez said.

The girl was taken by ambulance back to the hospital and the couple was taken to jail. The 8-year-old girl is not the child of the mother’s boyfriend. Herderner and Rivera, however, do have an 18-month-old child together. Both children are in the care and custody of DCF.

Adriyanna Herdener was released on her own recognizance and her boyfriend was released with $20,000 bond. Eyewitness News tried to contact both of them, but was unable to reach them.
http://www.wftv.com/news/21273709/detail.html


I also found a comment on a blog which states:
Quote
There is MUCH more to it…. Little Yanna had soap-bubbles coming out of her eyes and nose.. Adriyanna has raised that poor child in soup kitchens and assistance offices… She has mental problems and should have had the child removed long ago… She would yell at her in a voice that you would expect from special effects dept horror movies… Terrible situation- and Wilfredo is not even her father…. wonder where Patrick is? They deserved to be arrested… anyone who raises children in that type of poverty and environment needs it….
http://www.crimerant.com/?p=1757



Quote
On the, surface one might think washing a child’s mouth out with soap is no crime, but the rest of the story changes that.

32-year-old Adriyanna Herdener, deferred punishment to her live-in boyfriend, 41-year-old Wilfredo Rivera. After all, he was the father of their 18-month-old daughter and, as Herdener told police, “the head of the household.”

The 8 year-old daughter of Herdener apparently said some bad words.  Rivera grabbed a bar of Irish Spring and told the child – not wash her mouth out – but to EAT the bar of soap.

Herdener watched for 10 minutes as her asthmatic 8 year-old daughter chewed on this bar of soap (containing poisonous anti bacterial ingredients); crying and begging to stop the torture.  The girl began foaming at the mouth and vomited.  Herdener made her child clean-up her own vomit.  Rivera laughed at the girl.

The child then went into anaphylactic shock and her mouth and throat began to swell.  Herdner told Rivera to take her to the hospital so she didn’t have to deal with child services.  Rivera took the child to the ER, but once he realized they were calling police he grabbed the girl and bolted.  He took her back home.

When police arrived Herdner said she had given her some Benadryl and put her to bed.  They found her in bed wheezing.

The soap punishment rose to the level of a crime because of the malicious torture involved and the protection and help the mother failed to provide to her child.

The 8 year-old and the 18 month-old are in protective custody.
http://badbreeders.net/tag/bad-boyfriend/



Quote
Washing your mouth out with soap for cursing is a punishment from the old days, but it landed a Florida couple in jail.

According to police, the mother's boyfriend Wilfredo Rivera made the girl chew on soap for 10 minutes. This all happened while the mother, Adriyanna Herdener watched.

Investigators in Orlando say the child was crying, vomiting, and foaming at the mouth. According to police, the boyfriend wouldn't let the girl rinse out her mouth until she cleaned up her mess.

Reports state the child's lips, throat, and tongue became swollen and was in pain. That's when the mom asked her boyfriend to take the 8 year old to the hospital. Herdener didn't go to the hospital because she didn't want to deal with DCF. But DCF was called and both mom and the boyfriend were arrested.

According to DCF, the couple has a lengthy history of complaints.
http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/64329887.html
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« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2010, 12:15:46 PM »

There's more to this story....
Thank you for putting a context to all of this. A key sentence that I noticed was this, "The soap punishment rose to the level of a crime (emphasis mine) because of the malicious torture involved and the protection and help the mother failed to provide to her child."

Using soap as a deterrent is no more a crime than other forms of correction applied judiciously in the context of a loving and caring home. That was clearly not the case in the situation reported here. And yes, those adults need to dealt with as severely as the law allows.

However, cases like this should not create an attitude of fear in good parents who wisely use various methods in raising their children that are condemned by do-gooders who have the theory, but no experience.
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« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2010, 12:16:40 PM »

There's more to this story.  This wasn't just a girl who had to sit with a bar of soap in her mouth a la Ralphie:

Video here with important info: http://www2.counton2.com/cbd/news/crime/article/florida_child_suffers_severe_allergic_reaction_to_washing_out_potty_mouth_w/74587/

Quote
A couple is charged with child abuse after an old method of punishment goes wrong.
 
Adriyanna Herdener and her boyfriend, Wilfredo Rivera, are accused of the Friday incident where Rivera allegedly put half a bar of soap in their 8-year-old daughter's mouth because she said an expletive.

The child had to chew the soap for 10 minutes while vomiting, crying and begging to rinse her mouth out.

Investigators said Rivera wouldn't let her until she cleaned up the mess.
 
“When she was asking for relief of her distress, he basically laughed at her and continued on with what he was trying to do,” said Yvonne Martinez, a spokeswoman for the Palm Bay Police Department.

“It's only supposed to be a saying. You're not actually supposed to do that,” said Max Wilkerson, a parent.

Herdener and Rivera are out on bond.

In the meantime, the 8-year-old and the couple's other child are in the custody of the Department of Children and Families.
http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2009/10/12/child_forced_to_chew_soap_as_punishment.html


Quote
An age-old punishment got a 32-year-old mother and her 41-year-old boyfriend from Palm Bay thrown in jail. An 8-year-old girl said a bad word over weekend, so the couple washed her mouth out with soap.

The little girl was hospitalized, but was released and put in the custody of the Department of Children and Families along with a sibling.

While you've probably heard of parents washing their kids’ mouth out with soap, police say in this case it wasn't just a form of discipline, it was abuse.

The couple is in hot water after attempting to discipline the 8-year-old girl using a bar of Irish Spring. Police say Wilfredo Rivera forced the little girl to chew on a half-bar of the green soap for 10 minutes after she said the "F" word.

Police said the little girl was foaming at the mouth and wasn't allowed to wash the soap out until she cleaned up her own vomit.

"The detectives handling this case believed it to the point of abuse, child abuse, and that it was malicious torture,” explained Palm Bay police spokesperson Yvonne Martinez said.

Investigators say Rivera was laughing while the girl's mother did nothing until the couple noticed the girl's lips, throat and tongue were swollen. Then Rivera took her to Palm Bay Community Hospital.

However, police say, Rivera didn't stay to get her any help and left after he found out hospital staff called authorities, including the Florida Department of Children and Families.


Their landlord said Rivera told him they left because their daughter wanted to leave.

"He told me that the child was hungry and he said he knew she wasn't hungry because he had fed her something,” landlord Darwyn Rushing said.

When police discovered the girl at her house, she was still showing signs of some sort of allergic reaction that could have had dire consequences.

"Complications that could have turned life threatening,” Martinez said.

The girl was taken by ambulance back to the hospital and the couple was taken to jail. The 8-year-old girl is not the child of the mother’s boyfriend. Herderner and Rivera, however, do have an 18-month-old child together. Both children are in the care and custody of DCF.

Adriyanna Herdener was released on her own recognizance and her boyfriend was released with $20,000 bond. Eyewitness News tried to contact both of them, but was unable to reach them.
http://www.wftv.com/news/21273709/detail.html


I also found a comment on a blog which states:
Quote
There is MUCH more to it…. Little Yanna had soap-bubbles coming out of her eyes and nose.. Adriyanna has raised that poor child in soup kitchens and assistance offices… She has mental problems and should have had the child removed long ago… She would yell at her in a voice that you would expect from special effects dept horror movies… Terrible situation- and Wilfredo is not even her father…. wonder where Patrick is? They deserved to be arrested… anyone who raises children in that type of poverty and environment needs it….
http://www.crimerant.com/?p=1757



Quote
On the, surface one might think washing a child’s mouth out with soap is no crime, but the rest of the story changes that.

32-year-old Adriyanna Herdener, deferred punishment to her live-in boyfriend, 41-year-old Wilfredo Rivera. After all, he was the father of their 18-month-old daughter and, as Herdener told police, “the head of the household.”

The 8 year-old daughter of Herdener apparently said some bad words.  Rivera grabbed a bar of Irish Spring and told the child – not wash her mouth out – but to EAT the bar of soap.

Herdener watched for 10 minutes as her asthmatic 8 year-old daughter chewed on this bar of soap (containing poisonous anti bacterial ingredients); crying and begging to stop the torture.  The girl began foaming at the mouth and vomited.  Herdener made her child clean-up her own vomit.  Rivera laughed at the girl.

The child then went into anaphylactic shock and her mouth and throat began to swell.  Herdner told Rivera to take her to the hospital so she didn’t have to deal with child services.  Rivera took the child to the ER, but once he realized they were calling police he grabbed the girl and bolted.  He took her back home.

When police arrived Herdner said she had given her some Benadryl and put her to bed.  They found her in bed wheezing.

The soap punishment rose to the level of a crime because of the malicious torture involved and the protection and help the mother failed to provide to her child.

The 8 year-old and the 18 month-old are in protective custody.
http://badbreeders.net/tag/bad-boyfriend/



Quote
Washing your mouth out with soap for cursing is a punishment from the old days, but it landed a Florida couple in jail.

According to police, the mother's boyfriend Wilfredo Rivera made the girl chew on soap for 10 minutes. This all happened while the mother, Adriyanna Herdener watched.

Investigators in Orlando say the child was crying, vomiting, and foaming at the mouth. According to police, the boyfriend wouldn't let the girl rinse out her mouth until she cleaned up her mess.

Reports state the child's lips, throat, and tongue became swollen and was in pain. That's when the mom asked her boyfriend to take the 8 year old to the hospital. Herdener didn't go to the hospital because she didn't want to deal with DCF. But DCF was called and both mom and the boyfriend were arrested.

According to DCF, the couple has a lengthy history of complaints.
http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/64329887.html

Cry  Cry  Cry
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« Reply #96 on: January 16, 2010, 07:19:21 PM »

I thought from the beginning that it was pretty obvious that if a child had had to be hospitalised for this, the punishment had gone too far and was abuse rather than discipline.  Angry Wiping a bar of soap over the tongue is one thing, but holding it in the mouth for ten minutes!!?? Poor little girl.  Cry
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 07:22:21 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: January 16, 2010, 10:05:31 PM »


Using soap as a deterrent is no more a crime

What is established as a crime and what should be a crime are often two very different things.
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« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2010, 05:09:07 AM »

Treat others like you would be treated. Whoever harms little children would better have a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the ocean.

Jesus' teachings should be a basis for raising children.
Soap is a poison if ingested. Please do not abuse children with beatings or forced ingestion of toxic substances.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 05:10:55 AM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2010, 07:36:58 AM »

Its a justifiable thing to say to a child who has filthy speech.


The parent should threaten it, by saying that the child's speech is so filthy, that soap needs to be used to clean its filthiness.


But afterwards the parent should just make him read the Bible.

Go and do 20 prostrations... Now!... You just crucified Jesus Christ again!
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 07:40:01 AM by StJohn978 » Logged
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« Reply #100 on: May 25, 2010, 07:49:29 PM »

Treat others like you would be treated. Whoever harms little children would better have a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the ocean.

Jesus' teachings should be a basis for raising children.
Soap is a poison if ingested. Please do not abuse children with beatings or forced ingestion of toxic substances.

QFT
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« Reply #101 on: May 26, 2010, 03:54:14 AM »

Treat others like you would be treated. Whoever harms little children would better have a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the ocean.

Jesus' teachings should be a basis for raising children.
Soap is a poison if ingested. Please do not abuse children with beatings or forced ingestion of toxic substances.
I don't agree with children using profanity but I would not employ harsh beatings or soap bar in the mouth as a corrective. For small children who are in tantrums or disobedient, I think a tap on the behind (but not a harsh beating)  is OK at times. For profanity, I would go for a talk and discussion and if this did not work, I would go for restricting TV or computer time as punishment. The problem is that profanity is all around them and they will hear it even if they don't want to. There is a whole lot of foul language and profanity in many PG-13 rated movies these days.
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« Reply #102 on: May 26, 2010, 06:49:57 PM »

Treat others like you would be treated. Whoever harms little children would better have a millstone around his neck and be thrown into the ocean.

Jesus' teachings should be a basis for raising children.
Soap is a poison if ingested. Please do not abuse children with beatings or forced ingestion of toxic substances.
I don't agree with children using profanity but I would not employ harsh beatings or soap bar in the mouth as a corrective. For small children who are in tantrums or disobedient, I think a tap on the behind (but not a harsh beating)  is OK at times. For profanity, I would go for a talk and discussion and if this did not work, I would go for restricting TV or computer time as punishment. The problem is that profanity is all around them and they will hear it even if they don't want to. There is a whole lot of foul language and profanity in many PG-13 rated movies these days.

I don't understand people who fret about profanity so much. There seems to be a great quantity of qualitatively worse problems to be worrying about than the common casual and meaningless use of curse words.
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