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Dan-Romania
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« on: October 09, 2009, 12:27:15 PM »

Revelation 9

1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.

Quote
One of those punishments, chronicled in Revelation 9:1-11, will be the release of the depraved demons and fallen angels currently locked in the Abyss.  The Bible teaches that the Abyss is a spirit prison (Luke 8:31; I Pet. 3:19; II Pet. 2:4; Jude 6).  In the Abyss, some of the fallen angels are now bound in "everlasting chains under darkness" waiting "for the judgment of the great day."  For more information on these angels and the Abyss, refer to my articles "Fallen Angels and Demons" and "Genesis 6-Who Were 'The Sons Of God'?."

In Revelation 9:11, an intriguing character is introduced:

    REVELATION 9:11 They have as king over them, the angel of the Abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon. (NASU)

Abaddon and Apollyon both mean "destroyer."  Who is this ruling spirit called the "Destroyer," who is released from the Abyss during God's wrath on mankind in the last days of this age?  Does the Bible mention this being anywhere else?

The true identity of the "Destroyer" has long been misunderstood.  In this article, I will attempt to piece together all the relevant Scriptures to show who Abaddon/Apollyon really is and what his role will be in end-time prophecy.  Most have never realized how much the Bible has to say about this vital end-time figure, who is called by a variety of names.
The "Destroyer" Released

Let's start by reviewing the event that will allow this powerful fallen angel entrance into the world.  This occurrence is recorded in Revelation 9:1-11.  To rightly understand who this "king of the bottomless pit" is, it's vital to correctly interpret what this passage is saying.  We must be guided by Scripture, not our imagination.

    REVELATION 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key of the shaft of the bottomless pit; 2 he opened the shaft of the bottomless pit and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. (RSV)
First, notice that at the sounding of the fifth trumpet, an angel ("star") descends out of heaven to the earth.  This angel has in his possession a key to the Abyss (also called the "bottomless pit").  With this key, the angel unlocks the Abyss.  It is very likely that this is the same angel who later comes from heaven again with the key and a great chain to imprison Satan in the Abyss for the duration of the Millennium (Rev. 20:1-3).

    REVELATION 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth; 4 they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads; 5 they were allowed to torture them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torture was like the torture of a scorpion, when it stings a man.  6 And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death will fly from them. (RSV)

Regarding the "locusts" which ascend out of the Abyss, David H. Stern writes:

    Demonic monsters are released which fly like locusts (Exodus 10:12-20; Joel 1:4, 2:4-14) and sting like scorpions (Ezekiel 2:6, Lk 11:12). (p. 816, Jewish New Testament Commentary)
( http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Abaddon )

Who is Abaddon or Apollyon? What do you think , with who can we identify him?
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2009, 07:26:46 PM »

Who is Abaddon or Apollyon? What do you think , with who can we identify him?
I don't know, and I don't care. As your source put it:

Quote
We must be guided by Scripture, not our imagination.
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Dan-Romania
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2009, 10:29:52 AM »

Appolyon comes out of the botomless pit at the fifth trumpet.He is the king of Abyss and his name both in greek and hebrew means `Destroyer`.Is this a good or a bad angel?We see that they were commended to harm only those who don`t have the seal of the Almighty God.Earlier in Revelation 6, we see when the 4th seal is released that Death and hell is released and has power over the 4th part of the earth to kill it with famine, death, and the beasts from the earth.

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."Revelation 6:8

"And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."Revelation 9:4


In comparision of the two situations we see that when the pale-rider comes with him comes Death and Hell or Hades(the abode of the death) and has power over the forth category(part) of the earth.It has power to kill them with sword, hunger , death and the beasts of the earth.When the fifth trumpet is blown, we see that "a star" falls from heaven on earth and it has the keys of the fountain of the deep.Again if we are to make a raport on this , they are commended over the forth category(part) not the grass, not the green plants nor trees , but the people who don`t have the seal of God.This time the ones who don`t have the seal of the Almighty God , are tormented by the creatures of the fountain of the deep, but they will not die , and death will not find them.Compared withthe situation from Revelation 6 we see that it happens exactly the contrary.There the 1/4 part(category) of the earth dies.If we are to remmeber the parable of the seed and compare it with it, only 1/4 from those who received the seed perseverate and bring forth fruits.Earlier in Revelation we see that another angel is ascending from the sunrise and commandes to the 4 angels to whom it is granted to harm the sea and the earth and tries to not harm it untill the seal of the bond servants of God is on their fore-heads.

"Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,Revelation 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."

In chapter 8 all this are harmed through the four trumpets, and in the fifth the people who don`t have the seal of God are tormented, but not killed.

It`s interesting to focuss on the details of this angels, for example  "an angel ascending from the sunrise", and a star falling from the sky on earth having the keys of the shaft of Abyss.I remmeber that while God punished the people on Noah`s time , also the "fountain of the Abyss" or "shaft of the Abyss" was opened.This expression can mean the appliers of God`s punishment.Who else is an instrument of applying God`s punishment among angels , among the well known if not Michael, the archangel who we see that starts war with the dragon, and who trown the dragon out from heaven.Also before the falling of Persian Empire , Michael says that he will go and start war with the "angel" of the Persians (in Daniel).We also know from tradition that Michael is the angel who put the sword of fire to guard the tree of life.He is the applier of God`s punishments and justice.But not necessarly he alone , but together with other angels and archangels maybe.We see that the leader of the applied punishment against those who don`t have the seal of God is given the name "Destroyer".This can be interpreted as Michael , but can also be another angel.Who knows about this?
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Dan-Romania
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2009, 10:29:53 AM »

Can Apollyon be identify with one of God`s angels?For example the angels wich are tools of God`s accomplishing wrath.The expression "fountain of the deep" is used also in Genesis at the flood, and is similar as the expression fountain of Abyss.Michael is the angel wich made war with the dragon and cast him out , he is the one who protected the way unto the tree of life with a sword of fire.In Daniel, Michael says he will go and make war with the angel of Persia.The name Apollyon and Abaddon means "Destroyer" , and we see that the angel accomplishes this punishment only to those who don`t have the seal of God.Is Abaddon a good angel?Is he Michael, or another angel or archangel?I`ll appreciate if my previous post here (the 3rd) would appear also , I expressed some toughts and ideas in there related to this.
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2009, 06:53:46 PM »

There's a very good reason why we Orthodox read the Apocalypse of St. John (Revelation) with great caution.  So I have to wonder what it is we can gain from such speculation on how to interpret the text.
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2009, 10:37:54 PM »

There's a very good reason why we Orthodox read the Apocalypse of St. John (Revelation) with great caution.  So I have to wonder what it is we can gain from such speculation on how to interpret the text.

I agree that caution in interpreting such holy things is paramount. We see how various cults and sects have developed over specific interpretations of the Apocalypse.

The bottom line is that God is in control, and there will be a Day of Judgment. The foundation of our Orthodox Faith is not eschatalogical, it is doxological.

But I guess if we are really interested in such things (and there is nothing wrong with sincere spiritual inquiry), then we should ask our Priests and study the teachings of our Church on such matters.

Selam
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2009, 10:52:00 AM »

I tought this was an orthodox forum where brethen jump to assist others in theological discussions and help express their opinions?Who is assimilated with "destruction" or "destroyer" in orthodox tradition?
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2009, 05:14:05 PM »

According to Orthodox tradition, we don't even read the Apocalypse, let alone draw any theology from it.
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2009, 05:22:22 PM »

I tought this was an orthodox forum where brethen jump to assist others in theological discussions and help express their opinions?Who is assimilated with "destruction" or "destroyer" in orthodox tradition?

The answer we're all giving you is "We don't know" and "We're not sure we want to know."

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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2009, 05:59:12 PM »

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I tought this was an orthodox forum where brethen jump to assist others in theological discussions and help express their opinions?Who is assimilated with "destruction" or "destroyer" in orthodox tradition?

I don't know the answer to the question, but I think it's a perfectly valid question to ask. Didn't Fr. Seraphim mention in the introduction to The Apocalypse of St. John: An Orthodox Commentary that there had been scores of Russian commentaries on the Apocalypse just in the last century? This wouldn't seem to be a topic that is for some reason out of bounds in Orthodox circles.
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2009, 06:36:44 PM »

Who is Abaddon or Apollyon? What do you think , with who can we identify him?

Abaddon literally means "place of destruction" in Hebrew according to Strong's H11 and is usually translated as "destruction" (see the verses from the KJV in the above link). So Abaddon is synonymous with Gehenna, at least originally:

{Job 26:6} Sheol is naked before Him; Abaddon has no cover.
{Job 28:22} Abaddon and Death say, "We have only a report of it."
{Job 31:12} A fire burning down to Abaddon, Consuming the roots of all my increase.
{Psalm 88:12} Is Your faithful care recounted in the grave, Your constancy in Abaddon?
{Proverbs 15:11} Sheol and Abaddon lie exposed to YHWH, How much more the minds of men!
{Proverbs 27:20} Sheol and Abaddon cannot be satisfied, Nor can the eyes of man be satisfied.

I only recommend two commentaries for the book of Revelation:

1) The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge: not actually a commentary but a huge verse cross reference volume, it's available with the free e-sword program.
2) The Ancient Christian Commentary on Revelation: part of the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture series which are commentaries of the Fathers, you can get this from amazon.


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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 12:17:23 AM »

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I tought this was an orthodox forum where brethen jump to assist others in theological discussions and help express their opinions?Who is assimilated with "destruction" or "destroyer" in orthodox tradition?

I don't know the answer to the question, but I think it's a perfectly valid question to ask. Didn't Fr. Seraphim mention in the introduction to The Apocalypse of St. John: An Orthodox Commentary that there had been scores of Russian commentaries on the Apocalypse just in the last century? This wouldn't seem to be a topic that is for some reason out of bounds in Orthodox circles.

Abbadon seems a hard character to pin down. From what I know, most mainstream Christian groups don't seem to be very bothered with him, although in the lore of the Coptic Church it is the name (as Abbaton) given to the angel of death. http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Abaddon. I must admit to having read nothing about him/it within Orthodoxy; that I can recall. We very well might have our own lore regarding him, but I am not familiar with it.

But from what I have read, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Abbadon is Jesus, though earlier in their history they believed him to be satan. These urls (http://abbadon.totallyexplained.com/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon) might be useful for help with further investigation. However, this is probably a subject to approach with extreme caution considering the OP link is from some kind of Sabbath Keeper's site. Rather than run the risk of acquiring teachings that are not Orthodox, it might pay to seek advice from an Orthodox priest who is familiar with the Apocalyptic writings of our Church.

edited for clarification
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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2009, 01:53:45 AM »

Whenever I read the Apocalypse of St. John, I try to recall these verses smack dab in the middle of the book (Revelation 11:15):

The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!

This, and not all the prophecies of woe, is what I see as the ultimate theme of the Apocalypse.
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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2009, 02:17:30 AM »

Whenever I read the Apocalypse of St. John, I try to recall these verses smack dab in the middle of the book (Revelation 11:15):

The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!

This, and not all the prophecies of woe, is what I see as the ultimate theme of the Apocalypse.

I agree. Even so, eschatology does seem to hold a fascination for many people, and I suppose as long as one is careful not to get involved with the teachings of groups that we consider to be dubious, it's interesting. Of course, most people do come to see it as a dead-end; because it's all so confusing, conflicting and weirdWink
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2009, 02:43:36 AM »

It is interesting, because God is not the Author of confusion, and therefore the Church would not have canonized the Apocalypse if it were unintelligible.

It appears that there are two main errors in approaching the Apocalypse: 1) The attempt to interpret every aspect of it in a literal manner so as to try to deduce a specific framework of exactly how eschatalogical events will unfold; and 2) The complete dismissal of the Apocalypse as something too wierd and far fetched for us to concern ourselves with.

Perhaps there is a middle ground, which I think PetertheAleut touched upon above; and that is to glean general but vital spiritual principles from the Apocalypse which will have a significant bearing on our daily Christian lives. For example, PetertheAleut recognizes the divine message that Christ is the Lord of both this life and the next. Thus we can apply this Truth to our day to day lives, remembering both in our sorrows and in our joys that God is in control. 

Personally, I often take joy in the Apocalyptic message of "doom," for it gives me hope that the wicked shall not rule forever. I find comfort in knowing that the innocent victims of torture and oppression will one day be avenged. I rejoice to know that the martyrs of our faith will be eternally vindicated. So, the general principle of divine justice motivates me to live more righteously myself, to warn unbelievers of the imminence of divine wrath, and to work to promote peace and justice in this present life.

So I think as long as we look to the Apocalypse with the purpose of drawing general spiritual principles that positively effect our daily Chrisitian life, then we will not go astray and we will remain Orthodox in our interpretation. But when people veer off into the pursuit of constructing entire theologies and doctrines from the Book of Revelation, then sects and cults are inevitably the consequence.

OK, that's my two cents. I am not a Priest, and I hope I have not spoken in error. If I have, please correct me.

Selam
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 10:12:51 AM »

As others on this post has already written, dear Dan-Romania, Abaddon's character seems to be associated with the Angel of Death. If you check your Bible on the passage of the plagues of Egypt, you will see the Angel of Death working in a similar but yet contrary way. In the Exodus, in fact, the Angel of Death has to kill every firstborn in Egypt, and the symbol drawn in lamb blood on the doors of the Jews "limited" his action. The same, but on the contrary, is for Abaddon in the Apocalypse, who is this time limited to those who have been marked with the Beast's name. In a certain sense, it is plausible that the Angel of Death is Satan himself who serves as an involuntary minister of God's wrath, since death is said to have been introduced by Satan, and not by God (Jesus calls him "murderer since the beginning" being the cause of Adam's fall). The same Satan works in a similar way when attacking Job: God lets him work, but nevertheless he "fixes" a limit to his action:
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Now on a certain day when the sons of God came to stand before the Lord, Satan also was present among them. 7 And the Lord said to him: Whence comest thou? And he answered and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it. 8 And the Lord said to him: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a simple and upright man, and fearing God, and avoiding evil? 9 And Satan answering, said: Doth Job fear God in vain? 10 Hast not thou made a fence for him, and his house, and all his substance round about, blessed the works of his hands, and his possession hath increased on the earth? 11 But stretch forth thy hand a little, and touch all that he hath, and see if he blesseth thee not to thy face. 12 Then the Lord said to Satan: Behold, all that he hath is in thy hand: only put not forth thy hand upon his person. And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord. (Job 1:6-12)
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1 And it came to pass, when on a certain day the sons of God came, and stood before the Lord, and Satan came among them, and stood in his sight, 2 That the Lord said to Satan: Whence comest thou? And he answered and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it. 3 And the Lord said to Satan: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a man simple, and upright, and fearing Cod, and avoiding evil, and still keeping his innocence? But thou hast moved me against him, that I should afflict him without cause. 4 And Satan answered, and said: Skin for skin, and all that a man hath he will give for his life: 5 gut put forth thy hand, and touch his bone and his flesh, and then thou shalt gee that he will bless thee to thy face. 6 And the Lord said to Satan: Behold be is in thy hand, but yet save his life. (Job 2:1-6)
In the entire context of the Apocalypse, Abaddon doesn't seem to be a "positive" character, as an Archangel would have been. On the contrary, abaddon is associated with the Abyss (the same abyss the earth floated upon "in the beginning") and with the the "bottomless pit" which is possibly the Tartarus spoken of in another New Testament passage - i.e. the place where demons are cast and whence the devil operates:
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if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the tartarus, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment (2 Peter 2:4)

I know the Apocalypse is very complicated, but anywayI don't see any reason to associate Abaddon with Archangel Michael. I tend to associate him with the result of our evil deeds: those who accepted the mark, did this to obtain some advantage, but the truth is that the same devil imposing the mark will make their souls and bodies suffer much. This is in a sense a 'punishment' for having chosen a mark which isn't Christ's cross (a tau letter is often associated with the lamb blood of Exodus) but the antichrist's name 666.

A suggestion, though: don't get too much interest in the Apocalypse, because only the one "who hath understanding" can read through it, and all understanding of the spiritual things comes from God directly. Don't feel so wise to be able to interpret the prophecies, because they're going to be revealed in fullness only when they become true, and only to the righteous. On the contrary, stand fast in your faith as if the apocalypse were at hand; keep your eyes and ears on the signs of the times; and of course, read the true message of the Apocalypse: Christ is coming back to judge us, award the righteous, and defeat the devil and his minions!

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2009, 10:16:57 AM »

The biggest foulishness is not to try and read the Apocalypse and Revelation and interpret it.It`s foulishness cause that is where we are since Jesus ascended in the heavens.It`s something wich happened , is currently happening and will happen to the world.So is foulishness to be ignorant of the times we are living in.From the beggining of Revelation to the end is portrait the road of the Church, and not only.I`m disgusted by some of your posts, who instead of being on-topic and portaying something , are being off-topic and sarcastical ignorant.
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« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2009, 10:49:30 AM »


Dan,

They don't mean to be sarcastic, and they aren't ignorant...just careful.

The Book of Revelations is a tough read.  Many have misinterpreted it and have spawned all the doomsday cults, etc...and have misled thousands of people.
Most folks panic when they think of the End Times.  Their minds simply cannot grasp the magnitude of it all. 
In such cases...it can be a dangerous topic.

As Orthodox, we need to live as good and clean a life, every day, as we can.

For instead of fearing or awaiting the "final days" we are aware that we might face our Creator not even tomorrow, but, today, this very hour.  Who knows when we will die?
We need to be aware of all these things, all the time....not just in the final chapter of the world.  There's nothing we can do to stop it, what will be, will be. 
We are responsible for our own souls, and if we can...to educate and save as many others as we can - but, not in preparation for the End Times, but, in preparation for salvation and the eternity that awaits us all.

Don't be offended.  I am sure nobody meant any offense.

Peace.

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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2009, 01:50:18 PM »

Dan-Romania

Revelation is not impossible to understand and IMO is not a confusing book at all, keep the OT open while studying Revelation (especially the books of the Prophets) and compare the verses in Revelation and with those in the OT and you'll learn a lot. Then go to the Fathers and see what they have to say, the Fathers actually wrote extensively on Revelation.

Another thing that's helpful is some knowledge of the John's cultural background. Revelation is filled with symbolism and the symbolism has striking resemblences to ancient Near Eastern myth and Jewish lengend. Eg: the Beast of the Sea bears a striking resemblence to the ancient Near Eastern sea monster Leviathan:

{Revelation 13:1} And I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up from the sea that had ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns, ten crowns, and on his head, the name of blasphemy.

{Revelation 19:20} And the beast was captured and the false prophet with him, who performed signs before him by which he seduced those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. And both of them went down and they were thrown into the lake of burning fire and of sulfur.

Now compare with this:

{Isaiah 27:1} In that day YHWH will punish, With His great, cruel, mighty sword Leviathan the Elusive Serpent -- Leviathan the Twisting Serpent; He will slay the Dragon of the sea.

{Psalm 74:13-14} it was You who drove back the sea with Your might, who smashed the heads of the monsters in the waters; it was You who crushed the heads of Leviathan, who left him as food for the denizens of the desert;

Messiah used imagery that John was familiar with, from the myths and lengends he learnt as a child, in the visions He showed him. Another helpful thing is some knowledge about John's native language - Aramaic. Specifically the idioms (figures of speech), for example hyperbole is used extensively in Hebrew & Aramaic. Although Revelation says:

{Revelation 13:7} And it was given to him to wage war with the holy [ones] and to conquer them and authority was given to him over all the tribes and peoples and languages and nations.

This does not necessarily mean that the Beast will literally rule the entire planet, as a similar statement is found in Daniel:

{Daniel 5:18-19} O king, the Most High God bestowed kingship, grandeur, glory, and majesty upon your father Nebuchadnezzar. And because of the grandeur that He bestowed upon him, all the peoples and nations of every language trembled in fear of him. He put to death whom he wished, and whom he wished he let live; he raised high whom he wished and whom he wished he brought low.

Did every single people, nation and language on the planet at the time really fear Nebuchadnezzar? No, there were competing kingdoms around Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom. Another example from Daniel 2:

{Daniel 2:37-38} You, O king -- king of kings, to whom the God of Heaven has given kingdom, power, might, and glory; into whose hands He has given men, wild beasts, and the fowl of heaven, wherever they may dwell; and to whom He has given dominion over them all -- you are the head of gold.

Again this is not to be taken literally, it's hyperbole - a deliberate over exaggeration to make a point. In fact Nebuchadnezzar had this dream years before he conquered Egypt. There are examples of hyberbole in the NT too, eg:

{Luke 2:1} Now it happened in those days, that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled.

The Romans did not tax the entire planet only the territories subject to them, not to mention was a rival empire (Parthia) next door just across the river (Euphrates).

This is what I recommend for studying Revelation and properly interpreting it instead of consulting "doomsday fantasy theories" by Lindsey or La Haye, who interpret Revelation according to a modern American mindset instead of an ancient Middle Eastern mindset like they should.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 01:54:47 PM by Nazarene » Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2009, 02:49:26 PM »

Dan-Romania,
nobody called you an ignorant, but if you took offence for anything I wrote, I beg your pardon.
Anyway, if Jesus said that even He didn't know the times of his second coming, how can we try to identify it? If the same Jesus asked us to refrain from his millenarist positions, and the Orthodox Church has condemned chiliasm as an heresy, who are we to judge the Church? If you want my belief, I think Antichrist is PERSONALLY at work now. I think I have identified it, but how could I be sure? Am I so mad to accuse somebody of being Antichrist when he could be just an ordinary man and not the son of perdition? The Apocalypse is there to help us read the signs of times, as Jesus asked us to do... but when Antichrist will show up in its wonderful human power and earthly glory, even many of the saints could be seduced, so don't wonder when something will happen, or who Antichrist might be, or what Abaddon might mean... even the Church Fathers knew that Antichrist was at work in spirit at the time; st. Gregory the Great applied the name "antichrist" even to his successors who would have dared to claim superiority over the other bishops... some others claimed that Antichrist was a Jew by mother and a Christian by his bishop father.... Irenaeus and others gave long lists of possible names numbering 666, and none of them can be considered better then the others.
"Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man: and the number of him is six hundred sixty-six."
LET HIM WHO HATH UNDERSTANDING... Do you claim to have understanding? I mean, do you claim to be so prepared in your scriptural, theological, patristic, canonical, ethical and sacramental knowledge, and also in your spiritual level of adherence to the Gospel, that you can unveil on your own the mysteries of the future? The Apocalypse isn't an horoscope to foretell the truth... it's the allegorization of the final battle between Good and Evil - a battle that will eventually transform the world as we know it, and bring judgment for our sins directly at Christ's Court. The Lamb of God will personally judge us - yes, he will.... and there'll be new heavens and new earth. But we must have the same humility of our brother and father in the faith st. Paul apostle, who saw paradise but renounced to explain it in human words. Some mysteries are outside of human understanding, and will finally reveled at a proper time. Even the Church Fathers, wrongly basing their later condemned chiliastic beliefs on the date of Creation, have proposed dates of the Antichrist's coming that have proven wrong, because this subject must stay obscure in some extents, and clear in others. The Apocalypse, through the letters to the churches, gives us the instruments to battle; through the prophetic visions of the beast and of the knights, cups, seals etc prepares us to the future tribulations that are expected to occur... and the final chapters with Satan's defeat and the renewal of creation offer us to strengthen in our faith and hope for salvation.
Just prepare your spirit for the final battle as if it would occur in our lifespans! Just rejoyce in God's promise of a renewed life in His grace!

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2009, 03:15:52 PM »


On an off topic...

I was just reading the above post, where it mentions that Christ didn't "know" the time of his return.  I remember we had a long discussion on this a few months ago...comparing Christ's divinity (knowing all) and humanity (limited knowledge).

...and the gist was that it was Christ's "humanity" speaking when He stated that even He didn't know the date.

I was just thinking....might it be that He didn't know the date...because the date isn't set in stone.  Might it all depend on the "sinfullness" of mankind?

Just throwing that out there.




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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2009, 04:09:59 PM »

Dear Liza,
surely it depends on our sinfullness too. The more we are sinful, the sooner antichrist is to come to power. As God did with Sodom and Gomorrah, so it will be with our present world. Until at least a little grain of love survives in our world, Antichrist is refrained... but there'll be a time that evil will be so well rooted in the world that the few saints will have a hard time resisting it, and at that time the son of perdition will come.
Anyway, while in His humanity Jesus knew that time depended upon us alone, but in His divinity ("the Father",  the First Person of the Trinity, is often used to characterize God in its entirety by metonimia) He knew when that time would come by His omniscience. It is also clear from st. Paul's letters that he personally knew who would be the son of perdition, and that he had mentioned this truth to some believers... so everything was already somehow "determined" but fortunately it wasn't destiny that we knew who antichrist would be and when it was to come, so that we would have to keep our eyes open and our faith solid.

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2009, 04:44:53 PM »

Thanks for your posts Nazarene and AlexanderofBergamo.
It seems that this angel is seen as the Devil, and a part of the fallen angels.

"By the king of these locusts, who bears the name angel of the bottomless
pit - "Abaddon" in Hebrew, "Apollyon" in Greek - the commentators
understand the devil." (Archbishop Averky)

It seems that Appolyon in the Scripture Nazarene has posted is always linked with the abode of the death.Yes I remmember the angel of Death who came and killed all the first-born of Egypt, among the last plagues of Egypt.I am aware of all the bad that came upon Job, and who(Satan) applied it on him, but was limited and did not receive the authority to kill him.Also back down, in the botomless pit are kept in chains the angels who leave their place from heaven, we know that from Jude and from the apocryphal book of Enoch.In my bible instead of Appolyon(Abaddon) in the verse put up by Nazarene appears "Adânc".This word is used to portray the botomless pit , but is also used for the deep.As for the deep wich was opened when the waters of the  flood came.This locusts who come from the botomless pit can also be the demons bound by Jesus or even the angels who leaved their first habbitation and mixed with the daughters of men.
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Dan-Romania
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« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2009, 04:44:54 PM »

I have another question , why would Satan if he is Abaddon torment "his own kind" of people?
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