OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 29, 2014, 06:18:00 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Vatican II, the good, the bad the ugly  (Read 12104 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
NMHS
Site Supporter
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: UOC
Posts: 184


« on: October 09, 2009, 12:12:40 PM »

Hello everyone, maybe some of you could enlighten me to some more history of the RCC.  I know there have been a lot of changes within the RCC since VAT II, and there is a lot of disgruntled opinions of the aftermath of VAT II.  In a brief manner could someone enlighten me to these matters.  I know the liturgy changed, some say it was to conform to protestantism.  What brought this on, what were the major changes of VAT II, and why did the church feel the need to change?    I could get answers from CAF but at this time I prefer to get some answers from some outside resources.  Thanks, Caleb

I apologize if I offended anyone with the subject title it just seemed appropriate considering the many opinions on the subject. 
Logged
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,181


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2009, 12:39:30 PM »

This is a great topic for discussion, but it also involves opening a HUGE can of worms!   laugh

Since it is such a VAST topic, I can only offer you some impressions that I have garnered through experience and some research regarding some issues.....this is really too big a topic in a way...maybe it would be better served to be divided into several threads, I don't know...on the other hand, it could be quite fascinating to consider people's overall impressions....

I know that this will fly in the face of what many reactionary (occasionally thoughtful) people might say, but I think a lot of the liturgical reforms that came out of Vatican II were really positive.  Sure, the music could be very beautiful in the so-called Tridentine rite, but so much of what went on was just the the property of the priests:  I mean, the entire and I mean the whole canon of the mass ( and other very important parts) was recited silently by the priest, with no lay participation whatsoever!  Now, of course, there are indeed other problems with the Novus Ordo, and I don't disagree with some of the criticisms that have been made about it. nor can I agree with some extreme things that have happened at times in some places when it comes to interpreting the guidelines of Vatican II in an irresponsible way.  ( I am not happy about liturgical dance or other weird goings-on that have sometimes made an appearance in Catholic liturgy.)  I am anticipating a huge influx of postings  criticising  me for preferring the Novus OrdoWink

There are a lot of other things that I would love to discuss, when I have time.  I hope that some of our Catholic  and formerly Catholic posters chime in with some thoughts.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 12:56:13 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
John Larocque
Catholic
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox
Posts: 530


« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2009, 01:53:32 PM »

The actual liturigcal reforms that the Council desired, to correct what I've seen dubbed as "Low Mass syndrome", were a good thing. However, in my view, authentic liturigcal reform was hijacked by modernists, who were bent on synchronizing the Latin rite with Protestantism, in a spirit of misplaced ecumenism. You won't find texts of the council authorizing communion in the hand, mass facing people, removal of altar rails etc...  I really don't know if any of this can be undone.

As for the council itself, it reformulated some of the church's teachings along conciliar lines. In another link at this forum, Metropolitan John Zizoulas remarked that the RCC (under influence of Yves Congar) began to embrace a eucharistic ecclesiology, along the lines formulated by Nicholas Afanassieff (who authored an essay in "The Primacy of Peter"). Much is made on some of the bulletin boards of the Melkite Catholic influence at the Council as well. Vatican II also pushed for "de-Latinization" of the Eastern Catholic churches, so that they could recover their heritage. The liturgical trianwreck that occured in the wake of Vatican II was a tragedy, but I think on the whole the council pushed the Catholic church in the right direction. I don't see a full reunion with the East any time soon, but if that day comes, I think Vatican II will have played a role in that.

I've been at unsung Low Masses in Latin and don't much care for them... A full Latin High Mass - with all the "smells and bells" is a real treat, but I've only ever seen that done once. There is an ongoing "reform of the reform", an attempt to correct the liturigcal abuses, including cleaned up English texts. I'm sure it will offend many but I hope they push it through.

According to "traditionalists", there are three modes of thinking in the Catholic church - there are liberals, there are conservatives, and there are traditionalists. Those who are "ultramontane" and reject Vatican II - which covers many of the SSPX followers - fall under traditionalist. From an outsider's perspective, conservatives resemble Ultramontanes - both groups are very unhappy with the liturigical changes and adhere to the church's traditional teachings. However, conservatives also accept Vatican II and (properly translated and celebrated and ritualized) the Novus Ordo Mass. All the post-Conciliar popes are "conservatives." This conservative/traditionalist faultline is nearly invisible to those outside the church but it is real. And then there are the liberals, who want the RCC to embrace modernity and have much in common with ecumenist liberals in other confessions.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 01:58:44 PM by John Larocque » Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2009, 02:14:23 PM »

The actual liturigcal reforms that the Council desired, to correct what I've seen dubbed as "Low Mass syndrome", were a good thing. However, in my view, authentic liturigcal reform was hijacked by modernists, who were bent on synchronizing the Latin rite with Protestantism, in a spirit of misplaced ecumenism. You won't find texts of the council authorizing communion in the hand, mass facing people, removal of altar rails etc...  I really don't know if any of this can be undone.

This parallels my thoughts on the matter.

I am old enough to remember the beauty of Latin Mass as a child. The changes happened gradually. It seemed to me that the mass began to adopt some protestant features.

Now, having been acclimated to the Divine Liturgy for about ten years, when I experience the RC novus ordo for weddings or funerals, I am shocked at how truly "protestant" it feels to me.
Logged
rwprof
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA now, Antiochian originally
Posts: 294



« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2009, 03:38:51 PM »

The actual liturigcal reforms that the Council desired, to correct what I've seen dubbed as "Low Mass syndrome", were a good thing. However, in my view, authentic liturigcal reform was hijacked by modernists

And many of the changes most strongly associated with V2 were never mentioned at the council, much less recommended or mandated.

Logged

Mark (rwprof) passed into eternal life on Jan 7, 2010.  May his memory be eternal!
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2009, 04:01:09 PM »

The actual liturigcal reforms that the Council desired, to correct what I've seen dubbed as "Low Mass syndrome", were a good thing. However, in my view, authentic liturigcal reform was hijacked by modernists, who were bent on synchronizing the Latin rite with Protestantism, in a spirit of misplaced ecumenism. You won't find texts of the council authorizing communion in the hand, mass facing people, removal of altar rails etc...  I really don't know if any of this can be undone.

This parallels my thoughts on the matter.

I am old enough to remember the beauty of Latin Mass as a child. The changes happened gradually. It seemed to me that the mass began to adopt some protestant features.

Now, having been acclimated to the Divine Liturgy for about ten years, when I experience the RC novus ordo for weddings or funerals, I am shocked at how truly "protestant" it feels to me.

The actual liturigcal reforms that the Council desired, to correct what I've seen dubbed as "Low Mass syndrome", were a good thing. However, in my view, authentic liturigcal reform was hijacked by modernists

And many of the changes most strongly associated with V2 were never mentioned at the council, much less recommended or mandated.

Very true. Novus Ordo is a later invention, since Vatican II had very intelligent ideas in mind. In particular, its canons impose the preservation of the mass in Latin
Quote
    1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
    2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.
    3. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.
no mention is made of prayer "ad popolum" by the priest at consecration (the Tridentine Mass only allowed some seven moments in its course where the priest was allowed to look at the faithful, but consecration wasn't one of them) and it was even meant to restore Communion ab utraque. Novus Ordo was introduced by Paul VI in 1969, four years after the end of the Council. So it is wrong to associate the Council, and the Pope promoting it (John XXIII who was liturgically speaking a traditionalist) with the liturgical abominations of Novus Ordo. I read somewhere that he later repented of what he had done, but it was now too late.

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2009, 04:17:10 PM »

The actual liturigcal reforms that the Council desired, to correct what I've seen dubbed as "Low Mass syndrome", were a good thing. However, in my view, authentic liturigcal reform was hijacked by modernists, who were bent on synchronizing the Latin rite with Protestantism, in a spirit of misplaced ecumenism. You won't find texts of the council authorizing communion in the hand, mass facing people, removal of altar rails etc...  I really don't know if any of this can be undone.

This parallels my thoughts on the matter.

I am old enough to remember the beauty of Latin Mass as a child. The changes happened gradually. It seemed to me that the mass began to adopt some protestant features.

Now, having been acclimated to the Divine Liturgy for about ten years, when I experience the RC novus ordo for weddings or funerals, I am shocked at how truly "protestant" it feels to me.

The actual liturigcal reforms that the Council desired, to correct what I've seen dubbed as "Low Mass syndrome", were a good thing. However, in my view, authentic liturigcal reform was hijacked by modernists

And many of the changes most strongly associated with V2 were never mentioned at the council, much less recommended or mandated.

Very true. Novus Ordo is a later invention, since Vatican II had very intelligent ideas in mind. In particular, its canons impose the preservation of the mass in Latin
Quote
    1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
    2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.
    3. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.
no mention is made of prayer "ad popolum" by the priest at consecration (the Tridentine Mass only allowed some seven moments in its course where the priest was allowed to look at the faithful, but consecration wasn't one of them) and it was even meant to restore Communion ab utraque. Novus Ordo was introduced by Paul VI in 1969, four years after the end of the Council. So it is wrong to associate the Council, and the Pope promoting it (John XXIII who was liturgically speaking a traditionalist) with the liturgical abominations of Novus Ordo. I read somewhere that he later repented of what he had done, but it was now too late.

In Christ,   Alex

I believe all that's reported were words on his deathbed to the effect of "Stop the council" as he could see it was spiralling out of control and definitely out of what he thought the fruits of it would be.  I think he underestimated the persuasive powers of the dissenters in the college.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2009, 03:09:49 AM »

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,948



« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2009, 12:14:38 PM »

The actual liturigcal reforms that the Council desired, to correct what I've seen dubbed as "Low Mass syndrome", were a good thing. However, in my view, authentic liturigcal reform was hijacked by modernists, who were bent on synchronizing the Latin rite with Protestantism, in a spirit of misplaced ecumenism. You won't find texts of the council authorizing communion in the hand, mass facing people, removal of altar rails etc...  I really don't know if any of this can be undone.

Actually, in preparing the novus ordo, Pope Paul VI invited six Protestant Lutheran "theologians" from the University of Tuebingen to assist in its creation.  They did this, stating the reason, that prayers should never divide the Protestant and Catholic communities, that they should all be uniform.  Obviously they weren't thinking in terms of lex orandi, lex credendi.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2009, 11:43:26 PM »

Something radical transpired after Vatican II, particularly in the Europe and North America. A systematic reformation was enacted from the top down. Altars were desecrated, Churches were renovated overnight under the cover of darkness. I can't imagine experiencing that firsthand. I only hope that we don't see this kind of thing in Orthodoxy.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2009, 04:44:38 AM »

I think it'd be hard, nevertheless I pray for that not to happen. Fortunately, the absence of a pyramidal hierarchy presupposes that no bishop, even the EP, can't impose changes on the DL for all the Orthodox, and every single attempt would be stopped by the Church entire. I also pray for the Western Churches outiside of Orthodoxy that they might correct their Protestant errors and restitute to their congregations the original beauty of their liturgies.

In Christ,  Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
John Larocque
Catholic
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox
Posts: 530


« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2009, 09:01:48 AM »

Anglicans protestantized the venerable rites of the West, and long before Cranmer, Henry VIII began steps to deplete and liquidate the monastic orders. "Cranmer's New Order of the Mass", written by the late Michael Davies, is a reminder that many of the concepts imported into the Latin Rite in the 20th century were begun by Cranmer. Sacrificial language was vaccuumed out of the liturgy, statues and high altars were thrown out of the churches into the ditches etc... I've come across the Orthodox criticism that Catholicism is "Protestantism with a sacramental garb," but the Anglicans were ahead of them by several centuries. In the defence of the Anglicans, in my years as a child (briefly) in Anglicanism, I've seen more reverence for their communion wafers than the assembly-line mode of reception in today's Catholic churches. I suppose someone reading this article will assume I'm one of these old pre-Vatican II "Latin Mass" only advocates - not quite - but much of their critiques hit home.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 09:06:26 AM by John Larocque » Logged
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,646


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2009, 09:04:55 AM »

I think it'd be hard, nevertheless I pray for that not to happen. Fortunately, the absence of a pyramidal hierarchy presupposes that no bishop, even the EP, can't impose changes on the DL for all the Orthodox, and every single attempt would be stopped by the Church entire. I also pray for the Western Churches outside of Orthodoxy that they might correct their Protestant errors and restitute to their congregations the original beauty of their liturgies.

In Christ, Alex

Well put.

V2 was exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time. A mistake.

It didn't define any doctrine so Roman Catholics ought to put it away.

Even though what it actually said often wasn't a problem (religious liberty without indifferentism/relativism, ecumenism: having official talks with other churches and religions with that same caveat, and translating services).

There's the party line of the educated that V2 made Rome more like the East (token deacons, tacked-on epiklesis, telling Eastern Catholics, again, not to self-latinise which got blown off again) and then there's the common-sense view of the unbiased observer that it was an obvious move away from the East (from services that are like the Orthodox to services that are like the Protestants).

Greek Catholic is essentially superior V2 RC which isn't Rome's fault but because most Greek Catholics want it that way.

The game the liberals played when writing the conciliar documents was to have rhetoric praising something traditional (Latin, chant, organ music, etc.) then a few passages down undermine it by making it optional, which in practice around the world really meant suppressing it.

I don't think the six Protestant ministers were all Lutherans from Tübingen. One was Anglican from England for example.

The changes weren't directly an imitation of Protestantism (after all many Lutherans and Anglicans even today have better liturgical sense than mainstream RCs) but rather, bigger trends in the culture at the time: the then-hip abstract, spartan, stripped-down look of modern art etc. (a 1950s office building for example).

And... to understand English-speaking (Irish) RC culture then and now read Thomas Day's books Why Catholics Can't Sing (he's a musicologist) and Where Have You Gone, Michelangelo? In short the persecuted Irish 200 years ago couldn't have nice art and music in church and came to look down on such things as part of the culture of the hated English. They brought this church culture of Low Mass with devotions with them to America, where they ran the RC Church because they were English-speaking whites. The legitimate liturgical movement from continental Europe (good High Masses every week where possible) was supposed to correct that, and the intellgentsia among RCs thought V2 was going to do that, but it really ended up destroying that movement and continuing the problem Day describes perfectly. The guitar Mass is just the old Irish-American pattern in 1970s-ish garb, which they like even better because they don't have to fuss with the rituals of the old Mass. Add Modernism to that stew and now you get mainstream RC.

A better alternative history: if at a more opportune time (when there was less corrosion in the larger culture and the mainline Protestants were more orthodox), say, around 1900, a Pope had issued the same decrees on religious liberty and ecumenism and the existing services were at least partly translated, much like what 1950s American Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians were doing and what Western Rite Orthodox do today: the Anglo-Catholics' English Missal for example. That includes Low Masses (not ideal but the reason they dominated is the people wanted them) with good, classic Protestant hymns (talk about the right kind of ecumenism and inculturation).

Of course none of that solves the IMO one irreconcilable difference between Rome and the Orthodox (the scope of the Pope: Is the Pope a divinely instituted office channelling the church's infallibility and with universal jurisdiction or a man-made rank of the infallible church's episcopate for the good order of the church? Central command or a loose communion of bishops with a shared faith?) but no V2 would have left Rome with much more in common with the Orthodox.

Pope Benedict's doing a lot of good.

Cranmer was a theological nutcase but as a 16th-century Christian he shared a Godward worldview with the Catholic Church and he had a talent for prose. Anglo-Catholics starting about 100 years ago often translated the Roman service books in his style; their work is Rome's for the asking (Western Rite Orthodox use it). Day explained why the English-speaking RCs didn't adopt it.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 09:08:54 AM by The young fogey » Logged

AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2009, 02:23:52 PM »

Quote
Of course none of that solves the IMO one irreconcilable difference between Rome and the Orthodox (the scope of the Pope: Is the Pope a divinely instituted office channelling the church's infallibility and with universal jurisdiction or a man-made rank of the infallible church's episcopate for the good order of the church? Central command or a loose communion of bishops with a shared faith?) but no V2 would have left Rome with much more in common with the Orthodox.

Pope Benedict's doing a lot of good.

In fact my friend (a traditionalist RC embracing lefebvrian positions, except for the antisemitic attitudes of that movement) and I can understand very well and agree on many points. Afterall, sedevacantists, while still believing in Papal infallibility, are conscious that a Pope can be heretic, and thus not a true pope (as they say of all post-V2 popes). OTOH we both love each other's liturgies (the Vetus Ordo was really amazing), which proves that a reunion would've been easier when we shared at least liturgy in common.
Pope Benedict, who on other aspects clearly isn't my favorite pope, is still working in the right direction to reverse the abuses of Vatican 2, and I really appreciate this.

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,646


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2009, 03:22:01 PM »

That brings up a good point, Alex: more than one traditionalist RC has explained to me that it's the conservatives described above who are the ultramontanists (for example when Pope John Paul II gave in on altar girls they went along with it); trads are more like the East in that immemorial custom in the practice of religion is more important to them than to the conservatives. They believe all RC defined doctrines (and papal infallibility covers a lot less ground than most non-RCs think) but as a friend said to me, 'we are papal minimalists'. It's not the Pope's personal cult.

Trads are often accused of an idealised nostalgia (for the 1950s for example, a period I do like); the sin of conservatives on the other hand seems to be that, although they're sound RCs on paper, they're really only conserving what the Pope's opinions happen to be this week, unless it's about the war in Iraq, in which case they 180 and it's adiós, Pope; hello, Republicans. That and pro-life activism (I want to save the babies too but this just isn't working) is, in my opinion, for them a substitute for the religious culture they've lost: the rallies and marches are one of the few badges of RC identity. Don't worry, mods; I'm not trying to start a discussion of American politics; just saying what many conservative Novus Ordo RCs are like.

I've heard anti-Semitic talk among trad laity but never heard it literally preached from a trad pulpit.

BTW the old liturgical movement, the one that V2 was supposed to approve but in effect squashed, liked Orthodox practice.
Logged

AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2009, 03:42:40 PM »

Yeah, that's right. It seems that RCs are too concerned with charity missions and pro-life activism then with religious education for the faithful and a correct divine worship. This saddens me much.
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
NMHS
Site Supporter
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: UOC
Posts: 184


« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2009, 10:57:32 PM »

Yeah, that's right. It seems that RCs are too concerned with charity missions and pro-life activism then with religious education for the faithful and a correct divine worship. This saddens me much.


I will have to agree with the part about the RCC and it religious education and worship. 
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,860



« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2009, 11:06:55 PM »

It seems that RCs are too concerned with charity missions and pro-life activism then with religious education for the faithful and a correct divine worship.

While I don't think that Orthodoxy in America has jumped on the "social gospel" bandwagon just yet, as far as catechizing goes I have yet to hear an Orthodox priest encourage a single person to read the Bible on a regular basis, or for anyone to bring one with them to the liturgy.  Our parish offers a "Bible Study", but really no one goes.
Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2009, 07:50:34 AM »

It seems that RCs are too concerned with charity missions and pro-life activism then with religious education for the faithful and a correct divine worship.

While I don't think that Orthodoxy in America has jumped on the "social gospel" bandwagon just yet, as far as catechizing goes I have yet to hear an Orthodox priest encourage a single person to read the Bible on a regular basis, or for anyone to bring one with them to the liturgy.  Our parish offers a "Bible Study", but really no one goes.
Well, by itself reading the Bible is good. The problem, which the Church Fathers also understood, is what Scripture we can read alone, and what we can't. Personally, I'd suggest reading only the NT, which eliminates all the pendant Old Testament Mosaic Laws. Some passages in the OT (especially those concerned with the Holiness Code) can easily be misunderstood without a guide, enhancing a legalism on matters of ethics which is damaging for our Christian life.
The Gospel, on the contrary, invites us to experience charity in our own lives, which is a part of our way to holiness. Having a priest inviting (often imposing) us to be charitable through parish missions seems to give charity a sort of "karma" meaning. "Do the good otherwise you'll pay the consequences". That's not the Gospel logic. True charity, springing directly from our hearts, should be a spontaneous fruit of our faith.
I'm glad that Orthodoxy hasn't become a charity mission society yet. And a beautiful Divine Liturgy can inspire more charitable feelings then any priest forcing us to help others.

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,646


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2009, 08:43:05 AM »

The Orthodox in America are a much smaller and poorer church so they have no big charitable projects (schools, hospitals) to put them on people's radar like the RCs (unlike in Russia for example). That and you can argue that the errors of the social gospel are foreign to Orthodoxy anyway.

Alex, I hear you although one must avoid the heresy of Marcionism (Old Testament God bad, New Testament God good), but what about the psalms? The church east and west has never said that the office/hours are only for priests, monks and nuns and historically hasn't wimped out of including the problematic imprecatory psalms (with things like smashing the heads of your enemies' children on rocks). IIRC the modern RC Liturgy of the Hours does omit them; it's an exception which considering what we're talking about (V2 and a rupture of continuity) isn't surprising.

BTW the ordinary faithful praying the office including in church was a goal of the old liturgical movement. Until the early 1900s Sunday-night Vespers (including Psalm 109/110:6: He shall judge among the heathen; he shall fill the places with the dead bodies: and smite in sunder the heads over divers countries) was normal in RC churches and even required in some places, much like the Saturday Vespers or Vigil in Orthodox churches, but modern entertainment like the radio caused that to lapse starting around the 1920s. A very old (mediæval) adaptation/simplification of the office that used to be somewhat popular among the laity is the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Logged

AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2009, 09:59:31 AM »

I never said that reading the OT is wrong, as it is as inspired as the NT. I'm just stating that it is more dangerous to read the OT without a good knowledge of the NT and the Church Fathers- or at least without the aid of the spiritual father. While the Gospel contains more notions on the "love gospel" (and not "social gospel"... I think words here are important), they are easier to be understood (generally a few footnotes in the Bible can help us to have a sufficient understanding), the OT is less plane, full of rhetoric and ancient imagery; also, many of the prescriptions of the Pentateuch are figures of the NT, so an unprepared soul will read those liturgical and purity prescriptions as if God seemed to be evil or vindicative; without the NT, the OT is void of meaning in our lives, and doesn't remember us that God is love, and whatever he does for us, it's for our good.
I know that this opinion was also shared by the Fathers who, while granting the OT an important role as inspired Scripture, were perfectly aware of these risks. As a result, the OT is generally not quoted in the Divine Liturgy, which is the most preeminent rite of Orthodoxy. The same was generally applied to the Apocalypse, which is in fact excluded from readings because its understanding is too difficult to an unprepared faithful.
On the Psalms, you are perfectly right, also because their first of all spiritual hymns. I would apply your definition to all the writings with a similar nature, the so-called Wisdom Literature, as they offer direct hints for Christians on how to conduct our lives in piety, and offer examples of religious life taken from OT figures which on the contrary, when they appear in the Historical Literature, are more difficult to understand in a Christian perspective. The ideal would be: take an OT figure, read of it in the NT, then in the Church Fathers, and then eventually in the Wisdom Literature: at this point, clarify your doubts with your spiritual father and finally read the original passages where the characters appear, so that you can absorb everything this character can give you from a spiritual and theological perspective. This is my method, and up to now it works well.

Hope I've been clear now.

In Christ,  Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2009, 11:03:37 AM »

I attended Latin Mass the seekend with my sister followed by exposition and benediction. Let me tell you, this traditional Catholic was in heaven.  My sister went with me as well and was very pleased with the mass. She did make a funny comment about the people at the mass though: "Its like Vatican II never happend for these people."  Cheesy
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,646


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2009, 11:08:44 AM »

"It's like Vatican II never happened for these people."  Cheesy


I live in a Novus-free world.
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2009, 11:10:19 AM »

"It's like Vatican II never happened for these people."  Cheesy


I live in a Novus-free world.
I'm moving in that direction. My sister and I will probably attened the TLM alot more often. However, have you ever seen the NO celebrated properly?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,646


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2009, 11:31:43 AM »

Twice, both since Benedict became Pope and both at a local conservative parish (with a nice 19th-century building) that started an early-Sunday Tridentine Mass right after his motu came out lifting all the restrictions on it. Their Sunday High Mass (and on Christmas Day when I go) is eastward Novus (the priest faces the altar like an Orthodox priest) with kneeling at the rail for Communion.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 11:32:28 AM by The young fogey » Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2009, 11:59:35 AM »

Twice, both since Benedict became Pope and both at a local conservative parish (with a nice 19th-century building) that started an early-Sunday Tridentine Mass right after his motu came out lifting all the restrictions on it. Their Sunday High Mass (and on Christmas Day when I go) is eastward Novus (the priest faces the altar like an Orthodox priest) with kneeling at the rail for Communion.
At my parish we have a married priest (has kids too) who is a former anglican priest. He celebrates the mass this way as well. Great guy. Question: Do you have a problem with the NO when it is celebrated properly?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,646


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2009, 12:19:51 PM »

I'm not surprised that a priest formed by Anglo-Catholicism or even middle-of-the-road Anglicanism would celebrate it nicely (as I wrote above, many Anglicans have better liturgical sense than many mainstream RCs). I'd say the NO is unfortunate (unnatural, stripped-down and dull) but in Latin or really translated (as the translation, not a paraphrase which is used now, ordered by Pope Benedict will do*) with all the abuses removed and with much of the old ceremonial restored (which was always possible) there's no real problem with it.

In 1965 most people thought the slight changes in the instructions for the existing missal (partly vernacular with simplified ceremonial but still the Tridentine Mass and in many places eastward) were the extent of the changes. Pope Benedict's Catholic revival seems to be a move in that direction.

*A sticking point with trads is the bald lie of rendering qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur as 'it will be shed for you and for all'. I think Pope Benedict is fixing that. No more problem!
Logged

AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2009, 12:45:56 PM »

Having been raised a Roman Catholic, I must say I never saw Novus Ordo applied correctly, except for two cases or three in all my life. and in any case, a great damage has been made by the really bad Italian version. CEI (=Conferenza Episcopale Italiana) is one of those Conferences which have approved of the phrasing "which is shed for you AND FOR ALL" in the Canon of the Mass, and which blatantly translated many parts. It must be said I have nothing contrary to the version "sparso per noi e per tutti" from a theological perspective (since Christ offered himself for all humans, none excluded) but only from an historical perspective (that's not what Jesus said!). There would have been better translations for the Latin form "per multis" (such as "per le moltitudini"=for the multitudes) which would have stayed near to the Latin original and vague in its meaning, like in the Greek and possibly in the Aramaic words adopted by Jesus.
The only change I appreciated was the inclusion of the Canon of st. Hippolitus from the Traditio Apostolica, in an expanded form, but the position of the epiclesis doesn't work very well. Also, many wonderful devotions typical of the Latin church have went lost (including the Confiteor of the priest anticipated to the Confiteor of the faithful). My RC traditionalist friend made me love this lost rite of the Catholic Church more or less like the Byzantine Rite (afterall, the Tridentine Mass, Filioque apart, is almost unchanged since the times of pope Gregory!)

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2009, 12:50:58 PM »

I'm not surprised that a priest formed by Anglo-Catholicism or even middle-of-the-road Anglicanism would celebrate it nicely (as I wrote above, many Anglicans have better liturgical sense than many mainstream RCs). I'd say the NO is unfortunate (unnatural, stripped-down and dull) but in Latin or really translated (as the translation, not a paraphrase which is used now, ordered by Pope Benedict will do*) with all the abuses removed and with much of the old ceremonial restored (which was always possible) there's no real problem with it.

In 1965 most people thought the slight changes in the instructions for the existing missal (partly vernacular with simplified ceremonial but still the Tridentine Mass and in many places eastward) were the extent of the changes. Pope Benedict's Catholic revival seems to be a move in that direction.

*A sticking point with trads is the bald lie of rendering qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur as 'it will be shed for you and for all'. I think Pope Benedict is fixing that. No more problem!
All good points. I actually would prefer the Trindentine mass over the NO but with venacular. And I agree that what has happened with the mass over the past 40-50 years is quite tragic. I certainly pray that Pope Benedict will restore the mass to its former glory.
On a side note, a friend of mine invited me to an Episcopalian mass last night. The interesting thing about it was that it was almost indistinguishable from a Catholic mass that one might find at some of the more liberal parishes in town.
However, I know that high church Anglicans do a much better job with the mass than their Episcopalian counterparts.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 12:51:39 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2009, 12:33:01 AM »

Twice, both since Benedict became Pope and both at a local conservative parish (with a nice 19th-century building) that started an early-Sunday Tridentine Mass right after his motu came out lifting all the restrictions on it. Their Sunday High Mass (and on Christmas Day when I go) is eastward Novus (the priest faces the altar like an Orthodox priest) with kneeling at the rail for Communion.

Next time you are in New York, check out the great Fr. George Rutler's parish, the Church of Our Saviour. It's on Park Ave near Grand Central Terminal. He does both forms of the rite with the panache of the Anglican convert he is.

http://www.oursaviournyc.org/

I was there this weekend (and remain in NY till tomorrow). St. Patrick's Cathedral also celebrates the (new) Mass with much solemnity. My last visit, I was amazed at how much taste and reverence (and Latin) have found their way into the Cathedral liturgies.
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2009, 12:42:11 AM »

While I don't think that Orthodoxy in America has jumped on the "social gospel" bandwagon just yet, as far as catechizing goes I have yet to hear an Orthodox priest encourage a single person to read the Bible on a regular basis, or for anyone to bring one with them to the liturgy.  Our parish offers a "Bible Study", but really no one goes.

I've heard plenty of Orthodox priests encourage the faithful to read the Bible daily. As far as bringing it to Liturgy, this seems highly unnecassarey. Furthermore, there is more scripture said in any given Liturgy then any Protestant service.

While it is true that many Orthodox don't sit down and read the Bible daily, I can assure you they are educated in scripture. Why? Because all of our services are drawn from scripture!
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2009, 12:51:46 AM »

All good points. I actually would prefer the Trindentine mass over the NO but with venacular.

After talking with a couple of 86-year-old great aunts of mine, I wish this had been done. All they wanted was to be able to understand the Mass better---more English. They loved EVERYTHING else about the Mass and didn't want other changes. I have a little card insert approved by one of the US Bishops in 1965 with English texts for the simplified Tridentine rite, and I was struck by how solid and traditional the translations were. Anglicans and Lutherans would have recognized the texts easily. Now THAT would have been good ecumenism.
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2009, 01:21:37 AM »

All good points. I actually would prefer the Trindentine mass over the NO but with venacular.

After talking with a couple of 86-year-old great aunts of mine, I wish this had been done. All they wanted was to be able to understand the Mass better---more English. They loved EVERYTHING else about the Mass and didn't want other changes. I have a little card insert approved by one of the US Bishops in 1965 with English texts for the simplified Tridentine rite, and I was struck by how solid and traditional the translations were. Anglicans and Lutherans would have recognized the texts easily. Now THAT would have been good ecumenism.

This is what never made sense to me. Why re-invent the wheel? Just translate an already beautiful Mass into the vernacular. They lost SO much with the NO.
RE: St. Patrick's Cathedral (in your prior post.) I pray for reunification just so I would be able to participate in Mass at that Cathedral. Every time I go into that Cathedral I just stand in awe of its beauty!

(Being a Jersey girl, I go into the City several times a year.)

The Basilica of Saine Anne de Beaupre Shrine in Quebec is another beautiful Cathedral I would love to worship in.



Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,948



« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2009, 01:24:48 AM »

As the Tridentine Rite is being restored, I am going to assume that the music for the rite is Gregorian plainsong.

As someone who is educated in Latin and in Greek, it is very hard for me to endorse the venacular for the Liturgy especially if you plan on using Gregorian plainsong.  Gregorian plainsong is something I have studied extensively and even though most people and parishes execute it wrongly (though it may sound good), this one point remains: the music does not fit with the metrics of the English language.  It's the same with Byzantine chant and English: the two simply don't go together.  Now, I realize that to do the entire service in Greek or, if western rite, in Latin would result in me having to do them by myself since people are no longer generally educated in the classical languages.  

This leaves three options:
1)  Use Gregorian plainsong with English text (unacceptable to me)
2)  Use Gregorian plainsong and even polyphony with Latin text for the whole mass (most preferable)
3)  Develop a new system (4 part choral settings) with English text throughout (wasting a lot of good musical heritage there)

In EO churches of the Eastern Rite, more and more churches are using 4 part Russian style settings for the Liturgy which, of course, solves that issue.  I don't favor it. I prefer Byzantine myself.  But as one of only a handful of people who has any experience with Greek, ancient and modern, I have to use English langauge settings of Byzantine chant and it just doesn't work that well.

This is not just an issue of style or preference.  You cannot simply divorce the music from the language.  It has to be addressed and hopefully it will be addressed in both the RC and the EO in a way that not only preserves teh musical heritage of old and reduces modern innovations but preserves the prayerful atmosphere it helps to create.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2009, 01:34:40 AM »

I agree that chant is best in Latin, but in ordinary parish settings, I think English chant can be done reasonably well (see the Parish Book of Chant). Of course, Vatican II called for Latin to be RETAINED, so we are not talking about totally vernacular Masses here.
Logged
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,646


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2009, 08:15:31 AM »

lubeltri, I've seen online photos of Fr Rutler's church and met him twice.

Here and there over the past 40 years there have been wonderful holdouts. For example in London 20 years ago and today is the Brompton Oratory (which I've been to twice but not for a whole service) - essentially a community of priests who are like Fr Rutler - and St Paul, MN has St Agnes Church which under the late Mgr Richard Schuler kept the old German custom backed by the old liturgical movement of good choral music in church (Day contrasts the German and Polish approach to the Irish) and much of the old ceremonial.

Re: your 86-year-old great-aunts, the translation on the card insert and the right kind of ecumenism, and Handmaiden on not reinventing the wheel and on beautiful churches (I've been to the shrine of St Anne), exactly.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 08:16:55 AM by The young fogey » Logged

lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2009, 10:25:39 AM »

I have been to the Brompton Oratory. The best example of the "hermeneutic of continuity" I know.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2009, 10:28:47 AM »

All good points. I actually would prefer the Trindentine mass over the NO but with venacular.

After talking with a couple of 86-year-old great aunts of mine, I wish this had been done. All they wanted was to be able to understand the Mass better---more English. They loved EVERYTHING else about the Mass and didn't want other changes. I have a little card insert approved by one of the US Bishops in 1965 with English texts for the simplified Tridentine rite, and I was struck by how solid and traditional the translations were. Anglicans and Lutherans would have recognized the texts easily. Now THAT would have been good ecumenism.
And that would have helped us avoid a great deal of the upheaval experienced by the faithful after the Council.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2009, 10:31:00 AM »



This is what never made sense to me. Why re-invent the wheel? Just translate an already beautiful Mass into the vernacular. They lost SO much with the NO.
Well, I actually don't think the NO is entirely bad. It just has to be translated and celebrated properly. A good revised translation of the mass will be put into use next year, (thanks be to God) and Churches around the world are moving towards restoring a more traditional practice of the Liturgy.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2009, 10:33:25 AM »

I agree that chant is best in Latin, but in ordinary parish settings, I think English chant can be done reasonably well (see the Parish Book of Chant). Of course, Vatican II called for Latin to be RETAINED, so we are not talking about totally vernacular Masses here.
Exactly. I think what we are looking for here is a NO mass celebrated properly in the venacular with many of the parts of the mass that are well known, done in English. This could include the confiteor, the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, and perhaps the words of the consecration.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2009, 10:36:08 AM »




The Basilica of Saine Anne de Beaupre Shrine in Quebec is another beautiful Cathedral I would love to worship in.





These pictures almost bring me to tears when I am reminded how much of our sacred architecture has been lost. I love being a Latin Catholic and the pictures are examples of what should be my inheritence. I keep praying that the New Liturgical Movement is successful in restoring the Liturgy, Art, Architecture, and Sacred music of the Western Church.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2009, 11:03:32 AM »

These pictures almost bring me to tears when I am reminded how much of our sacred architecture has been lost. I love being a Latin Catholic and the pictures are examples of what should be my inheritence. I keep praying that the New Liturgical Movement is successful in restoring the Liturgy, Art, Architecture, and Sacred music of the Western Church.

To be fair, I think a lot of the "ugly architecture" that exists in the US has nothing to do with Vatican II, but the ADD attention span of Americans.

American churches in general (regardless of affiliation) have suffered from a case of the "uglies" in the past 60 years or so.

In Europe, Cathedrals used to take upwards of 50 years to build. (There is a Cathedral in Spain that has taken over 150 years and STILL is not finished!) If you told an American parish today that they had to wait 50 years for their building, the Parish Council would toss you out on the Street!

I think another reason for "ugly" churches was that as churches were built post-WWII, people simply did not have the money to build huge edifices with detailed carvings and beautiful artwork. They had just survived the Great Depression and the second World War. There was no money for beauty! The idea was for the building to be functional; not beautiful.

With the exception of the Protestant mega-churches that look more like a warehouse than a house of worship, I think we are starting to see a change in church architecture with a focus on aesthetics.

Over the past twenty years, more Americans have had the disposable income to go to Europe and see the great Cathedrals over there. It's sort of an eye opener like "Ohhh, THIS is what a church is supposed to look like!"

I have noticed in Orthodoxy, newer buildings have a stronger resemblence to the ones in Europe than they do over here.

Just my two cents...




Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2009, 11:10:43 AM »

These pictures almost bring me to tears when I am reminded how much of our sacred architecture has been lost. I love being a Latin Catholic and the pictures are examples of what should be my inheritence. I keep praying that the New Liturgical Movement is successful in restoring the Liturgy, Art, Architecture, and Sacred music of the Western Church.

To be fair, I think a lot of the "ugly architecture" that exists in the US has nothing to do with Vatican II, but the ADD attention span of Americans.

American churches in general (regardless of affiliation) have suffered from a case of the "uglies" in the past 60 years or so.

In Europe, Cathedrals used to take upwards of 50 years to build. (There is a Cathedral in Spain that has taken over 150 years and STILL is not finished!) If you told an American parish today that they had to wait 50 years for their building, the Parish Council would toss you out on the Street!

I think another reason for "ugly" churches was that as churches were built post-WWII, people simply did not have the money to build huge edifices with detailed carvings and beautiful artwork. They had just survived the Great Depression and the second World War. There was no money for beauty! The idea was for the building to be functional; not beautiful.

With the exception of the Protestant mega-churches that look more like a warehouse than a house of worship, I think we are starting to see a change in church architecture with a focus on aesthetics.

Over the past twenty years, more Americans have had the disposable income to go to Europe and see the great Cathedrals over there. It's sort of an eye opener like "Ohhh, THIS is what a church is supposed to look like!"

I have noticed in Orthodoxy, newer buildings have a stronger resemblence to the ones in Europe than they do over here.

Just my two cents...





All very true but I don't think that one necessarily needs to spend incredible amounts of money to build the local parish church. I'm not expecting Gothic Cathedrals for every parish. However, the should be designed according to proper Catholic theology. The poorest parish in my diocese manged to build a beautiful Church that was not ridiculous in cost but still resembles a Catholic Church.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 11:11:34 AM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2009, 03:02:02 PM »

These pictures almost bring me to tears when I am reminded how much of our sacred architecture has been lost. I love being a Latin Catholic and the pictures are examples of what should be my inheritence. I keep praying that the New Liturgical Movement is successful in restoring the Liturgy, Art, Architecture, and Sacred music of the Western Church.

To be fair, I think a lot of the "ugly architecture" that exists in the US has nothing to do with Vatican II, but the ADD attention span of Americans.

American churches in general (regardless of affiliation) have suffered from a case of the "uglies" in the past 60 years or so.

In Europe, Cathedrals used to take upwards of 50 years to build. (There is a Cathedral in Spain that has taken over 150 years and STILL is not finished!) If you told an American parish today that they had to wait 50 years for their building, the Parish Council would toss you out on the Street!

I think another reason for "ugly" churches was that as churches were built post-WWII, people simply did not have the money to build huge edifices with detailed carvings and beautiful artwork. They had just survived the Great Depression and the second World War. There was no money for beauty! The idea was for the building to be functional; not beautiful.

With the exception of the Protestant mega-churches that look more like a warehouse than a house of worship, I think we are starting to see a change in church architecture with a focus on aesthetics.

Over the past twenty years, more Americans have had the disposable income to go to Europe and see the great Cathedrals over there. It's sort of an eye opener like "Ohhh, THIS is what a church is supposed to look like!"

I have noticed in Orthodoxy, newer buildings have a stronger resemblence to the ones in Europe than they do over here.

Just my two cents...





All very true but I don't think that one necessarily needs to spend incredible amounts of money to build the local parish church. I'm not expecting Gothic Cathedrals for every parish. However, the should be designed according to proper Catholic theology. The poorest parish in my diocese manged to build a beautiful Church that was not ridiculous in cost but still resembles a Catholic Church.

Your right Papist. I saw many horrible modern RC parishes in my city, but I know that it wasn't done for money. The same materials and techniques might have been used with no further cost to preserve the original form of Latin churches, the prototype of romanic basilicas, for example. A latin-crossed church isn't so difficult to build, yet there are architects who exchange the project of churches for that of theatres and destroy all symbologies. A case such as this is a newly built church in the Loreto Quarter, a part of my city of Bergamo, in Italy, where the cross-structure (a Greek cross, to be precise) is "absorbed" into an outer circular structure (like Rome's Pantheon, I mean) and has a terrible round window in the center of the dome with a "Big Brother"-like eye in it. This is NOT Christian architecture... this is a paganization of Christianity! The beauty of the Romanic and Gothic church now disappears when tens and tens of horrendous buildings we wouldn't dare to call "churches". The problem is that architects are given too much freedom in their designs and, of course, that they lack a profound theological instruction they'd need to built churches. Modern interpretations of V2 have of course facilitated the process, though.

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2009, 03:30:50 PM »

These pictures almost bring me to tears when I am reminded how much of our sacred architecture has been lost. I love being a Latin Catholic and the pictures are examples of what should be my inheritence. I keep praying that the New Liturgical Movement is successful in restoring the Liturgy, Art, Architecture, and Sacred music of the Western Church.

To be fair, I think a lot of the "ugly architecture" that exists in the US has nothing to do with Vatican II, but the ADD attention span of Americans.

American churches in general (regardless of affiliation) have suffered from a case of the "uglies" in the past 60 years or so.

In Europe, Cathedrals used to take upwards of 50 years to build. (There is a Cathedral in Spain that has taken over 150 years and STILL is not finished!) If you told an American parish today that they had to wait 50 years for their building, the Parish Council would toss you out on the Street!

I think another reason for "ugly" churches was that as churches were built post-WWII, people simply did not have the money to build huge edifices with detailed carvings and beautiful artwork. They had just survived the Great Depression and the second World War. There was no money for beauty! The idea was for the building to be functional; not beautiful.

With the exception of the Protestant mega-churches that look more like a warehouse than a house of worship, I think we are starting to see a change in church architecture with a focus on aesthetics.

Over the past twenty years, more Americans have had the disposable income to go to Europe and see the great Cathedrals over there. It's sort of an eye opener like "Ohhh, THIS is what a church is supposed to look like!"

I have noticed in Orthodoxy, newer buildings have a stronger resemblence to the ones in Europe than they do over here.

Just my two cents...





All very true but I don't think that one necessarily needs to spend incredible amounts of money to build the local parish church. I'm not expecting Gothic Cathedrals for every parish. However, the should be designed according to proper Catholic theology. The poorest parish in my diocese manged to build a beautiful Church that was not ridiculous in cost but still resembles a Catholic Church.

Your right Papist. I saw many horrible modern RC parishes in my city, but I know that it wasn't done for money. The same materials and techniques might have been used with no further cost to preserve the original form of Latin churches, the prototype of romanic basilicas, for example. A latin-crossed church isn't so difficult to build, yet there are architects who exchange the project of churches for that of theatres and destroy all symbologies. A case such as this is a newly built church in the Loreto Quarter, a part of my city of Bergamo, in Italy, where the cross-structure (a Greek cross, to be precise) is "absorbed" into an outer circular structure (like Rome's Pantheon, I mean) and has a terrible round window in the center of the dome with a "Big Brother"-like eye in it. This is NOT Christian architecture... this is a paganization of Christianity! The beauty of the Romanic and Gothic church now disappears when tens and tens of horrendous buildings we wouldn't dare to call "churches". The problem is that architects are given too much freedom in their designs and, of course, that they lack a profound theological instruction they'd need to built churches. Modern interpretations of V2 have of course facilitated the process, though.

In Christ,   Alex
Just as an iconographer should be a person of great prayer, penance, and devotion to our Lord, so too should be the architects who design God's temples.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2009, 03:49:14 PM »

Quote
Just as an iconographer should be a person of great prayer, penance, and devotion to our Lord, so too should be the architects who design God's temples.
Precisely. Otherwise, if a temple (aka church) weren't as sacred as an icon, why did God instruct Solomon directly on the building of the Temple of Jerusalem?

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2009, 06:13:03 PM »

I agree that things started going downhill after World War II. Most of the 1950s churches aren't very nice---though certainly preferable to what came not long after.

As for tradition and beauty being more expensive, consider the Cathedral of Los Angeles.



Nearly $200 million for this big box.

Check out the $3 million, 25-ton bronze doors:



Or the $1 million tabernacle:



Or the $1 million cathedra:



Or the $5 million altar:



-----

I highly recommend two really good books to read if you want to learn about the heretical theology behind this kind of church architecture:



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1933184442/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1928832369&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0CREZ2N5FP60JPH2BC1Q



http://www.amazon.com/No-Place-God-Transcendence-Architecture/dp/1586171534/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c




Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2009, 06:24:31 PM »

There's a growing tend to build more traditional these days. For example, the $23 million chapel of St. Thomas Aquinas College in California, dedicated in 2009:





Sure, the "experts" will say that the architecture is "stodgy" and "derivative," but do you think the chapel's happy worshippers will care one whit?
Logged
wynd
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 501


Transfiguration


« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2009, 06:42:11 PM »

Sure, the "experts" will say that the architecture is "stodgy" and "derivative," but do you think the chapel's happy worshippers will care one whit?

If the alternative is new and vibrant, then color me stodgy.
Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,948



« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2009, 06:42:57 PM »

I like the architecture in the St. Thomas Aquinas Church but there's too much white.  Get a good  iconographer and he'll fix the problem!  Smiley
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2009, 06:52:41 PM »

I like the architecture in the St. Thomas Aquinas Church but there's too much white.  Get a good  iconographer and he'll fix the problem!  Smiley

That's probably what they had the money for at the time. I'm sure iconography will be added in due time. Smiley

Fr. Rutler, pastor of the Church of Our Saviour in New York, had one of his parishioners (a Chinese muralist he baptized into the Catholic faith) paint this huge 24-foot Christ Pantokrator in the apse several years ago. The church itself was built in the late 1950s.



Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2009, 07:10:21 PM »

I like the architecture in the St. Thomas Aquinas Church but there's too much white.  Get a good  iconographer and he'll fix the problem!  Smiley

That's probably what they had the money for at the time. I'm sure iconography will be added in due time. Smiley

Fr. Rutler, pastor of the Church of Our Saviour in New York, had one of his parishioners (a Chinese muralist he baptized into the Catholic faith) paint this huge 24-foot Christ Pantokrator in the apse several years ago. The church itself was built in the late 1950s.





Hmmmmm... Looks like they are trying to Byzantinize a Latin Church.  Wink
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2009, 07:11:03 PM »

I like the architecture in the St. Thomas Aquinas Church but there's too much white.  Get a good  iconographer and he'll fix the problem!  Smiley
I like the white. I'm hoping for more white statues as time goes on in this Church.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2009, 07:54:13 PM »


Hmmmmm... Looks like they are trying to Byzantinize a Latin Church.  Wink

Romanesque and Byzantine can go well together, I think. Western Romanesque painting is much closer to Byzantine, anyway. Consider this c.a. 1100 Spanish apse, which you can see at the Cloisters Museum in New York:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%27The_Virgin_and_Child_in_Majesty_and_the_Adoration_of_the_Maji%27,_Romanesque_fresco_by_the_Master_of_Pedret_from_the_apse_of_the_Church_of_Saint_Joan_at_Tredos,_Lleida,_Spain,_c._1100.jpg


I think the Church of Our Saviour (finished in 1959) is more successful an example of Byzantine-Romanesque than the upper church of the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, which was completed in the same year.

I think the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis and Westminster Cathedral in London are even more successful examples of Byzantine-Romanesque.
Logged
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,227



« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2009, 08:05:50 PM »

Just as an iconographer should be a person of great prayer, penance, and devotion to our Lord, so too should be the architects who design God's temples.

Wonderfully said! I attended Ave Maria University for 2 semesters and the church there looked like a rocket ship. Apparently it was supposed to be resemble a Bishop's Mitre. Clever idea, but I think sticking with the tradition of beautiful western architecture would have sufficed.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2009, 11:19:08 PM »

Grace and Peace,

My fear as one moving toward Orthodoxy isn't a Vatican II or a top-down change but erosion from Parishioners slowly wooed by an anti-sacral Secular Culture.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2009, 10:34:05 AM »

Dear lubeltri,
I love of the churches you proposed in your images. I have nothing contrary to that "white abundance".
And now for Papist,
that Pantocrator has a Byzantine symbology AND a Latin approach, since there are shades of colour both on the Christ himself and in the background. It must be said that the Latin Church made a large use of Byzantine iconography during the first centuries - or better, we should say that the same basic elements of ancient iconography were present in every part of the world despite the few differences due to artistic sensibility. There's a large use of iconography in many Italian RC churches of the First Millennium and even after. St Paul outside-the-walls in Rome and st. Mark in Venice are beautiful examples of this.

Of both churches I can say they fully respond to the vocation of Christian art: praising the Lord with TRUE art and immersing the faithful in a "divine" setting. On the contrary, that horrendous 200-million-dollars abomination called "Cathedral" is nothing but a Protestant temple and can barely be called a church, despite the presence of an altar.

In Christ,    Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2009, 11:12:04 AM »

I agree, Alexander.

When this destructive fit of Iconoclasm plaguing the West passes away, that "cathedral" (which they call the Taj Mahony, after Cardinal Roger Mahony, the monstrous bishop behind the monstrosity) will be sold off and something proper will eventually be built.
Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2009, 11:44:46 AM »

Quote
Just as an iconographer should be a person of great prayer, penance, and devotion to our Lord, so too should be the architects who design God's temples.
Precisely. Otherwise, if a temple (aka church) weren't as sacred as an icon, why did God instruct Solomon directly on the building of the Temple of Jerusalem?

In Christ,   Alex

What do you think of hiring a Jewish(or other non-Christian) Architect to design a Christian Church? I know of some who have done this, and I often wondered about that...Would Jews hire a Christian to design their synagogues?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 12:12:11 PM by Rosehip » Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2009, 12:36:06 PM »

Sincerely, the best architect and artist for a religious faith is the one that shares 100% of that faith. Jews just couldn't understand Christian art, and they would make a synagogue of any church they want to build. Synagogues are completely empty of any sacred picture, so we'll have only void walls. It is a problem of their religion that they just can't portray characters from the Bible... and how could they portay Jesus himself, whom they consider an impostor, with a symbology which acknowledges him as God himself? The same for Muslims, who use to decorate their mosques with floreal motifs but are forbidden to represent living creatures (I mean animals, humans, angels and of course God himself).
The same is valid for the contrary: we are so used to Christian art (and I'm referring only to non-iconoclastic Christians of course) that an artist building a synagogue would fail to understand the absence of pictures in it. The temple is a place *taken apart* (from the Greek "temno" which means to cut off, to separate) for the divinity, and as lubeltri, Papist and I already have said, temple building is like iconography... it is a sacred art.
I think the only ones who would benefit an artistic work from a Jewish architect might be a iconoclastic Protestant church, but still I don't see how that could work. Which doesn't mean that Jewish architects aren't good artists, but just that they make wonderful synagogues, but they couldn't make a good church (this is my opinion of course). The fact that a temple is as sacred as an icon appears clearly by the fact that the church must be consecrated by a bishop, like an icon, to the matter with grace, otherwise it's just a building, exactly like icons are beautiful but useless pictures until their blessed. The work of the artist - be he iconographer or architect - should be to prepare not a piece of art, but a religious place or object... and the Church has the task to overlook the genuinity and validity of that temple or picture to become holy... which is something the Pentateuch clearly tries to transmit with all those concerns with purity, perfection and holiness.

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2009, 02:40:02 PM »

Just as an iconographer should be a person of great prayer, penance, and devotion to our Lord, so too should be the architects who design God's temples.

Wonderfully said! I attended Ave Maria University for 2 semesters and the church there looked like a rocket ship. Apparently it was supposed to be resemble a Bishop's Mitre. Clever idea, but I think sticking with the tradition of beautiful western architecture would have sufficed.

In Christ,
Andrew
I have hear rumors that traditional liturgy is discouraged on that campus in favor of more "charismatic" style worship. Would you agree with this statement?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 02:40:19 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2009, 02:43:12 PM »

Dear lubeltri,
I love of the churches you proposed in your images. I have nothing contrary to that "white abundance".
And now for Papist,
that Pantocrator has a Byzantine symbology AND a Latin approach, since there are shades of colour both on the Christ himself and in the background. It must be said that the Latin Church made a large use of Byzantine iconography during the first centuries - or better, we should say that the same basic elements of ancient iconography were present in every part of the world despite the few differences due to artistic sensibility. There's a large use of iconography in many Italian RC churches of the First Millennium and even after. St Paul outside-the-walls in Rome and st. Mark in Venice are beautiful examples of this.

Of both churches I can say they fully respond to the vocation of Christian art: praising the Lord with TRUE art and immersing the faithful in a "divine" setting. On the contrary, that horrendous 200-million-dollars abomination called "Cathedral" is nothing but a Protestant temple and can barely be called a church, despite the presence of an altar.

In Christ,    Alex
I was actually Joking about the "Byzantinization".  Cheesy. I really do think that the use of Icons in a Church is a great things, just so long as Latins don't lose our tradition of using statues.

I agree with you about that modernist Cathedral being an abomination. It almost makes me sick to look at it. I think it should be torn to the ground personally. In fact, I don't think its an appropriate church for any Christian of any denomination who professes the faith of the Creed and that would include Protestants.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 02:46:00 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2009, 02:43:37 PM »

I agree, Alexander.

When this destructive fit of Iconoclasm plaguing the West passes away, that "cathedral" (which they call the Taj Mahony, after Cardinal Roger Mahony, the monstrous bishop behind the monstrosity) will be sold off and something proper will eventually be built.
Let us pray for that.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,227



« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2009, 03:41:26 PM »


I have hear rumors that traditional liturgy is discouraged on that campus in favor of more "charismatic" style worship. Would you agree with this statement?

The Latin Mass is pretty well attended, but there is a lot of Protestantization that crept in to the other Masses, namely female altar servers. The evening Masses during the week include the infamous "praise and worship music" and the evening Mass on Sunday does, too. I told one of my friends there (who happened to be into the "charismatic" stuff) that if I wanted to worship like a Protestant, I would become one again. He said that "we can learn a lot from the Protestants!" Shocked There is a rather strong "traditional movement" and apparently a strong, bitter rivalry between them and the modernists. I never really noticed it publicly.

But sadly, all things "charismatic" are preferred over the richness of the traditional western patrimony. The VP of the college and his wife go to charismatic conferences all the time (they're in their late 60s!) and I had a class taught by a self-proclaimed "charismatic" Benedictine Nun. It was....interesting to say the least.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2009, 04:39:53 PM »

In the choice between "charismatic" schools, I would choose the Franciscan University of Steubenville over Ave Maria---especially since the fine Jesuit Fr. Fessio got fired from the latter.

I know quite a number of young men from Steubenville who are now Dominicans. They tell me they were quite comfortable carving out their own traditional niche there. It also helped that a fine Dominican was a favorite professor there until he was elected Prior of the Dominican House of Studies in Washington, DC.

I remember having lunch with this friar a couple of years ago (while he was still at Steubenville). I recall asking him (he is a liturgical scholar) what he thought of the forthcoming new (much more accurate and beautiful) English translations of the Mass.

His response: "Thank God. Finally!"

That's exactly what faithful Catholics the world over are saying about the ongoing Benedictine Restoration.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2009, 06:11:36 PM »


That's exactly what faithful Catholics the world over are saying about the ongoing Benedictine Restoration.
I can't wait until every priest faces the right way in every parish during the canon of the mass.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2009, 07:33:54 AM »

I know you were joking on "Byzantinization", dear brother Papist. I was just putting as an evidence how the *traditional* forms of Christian art in the "catholic churches" have a wonderful common base and they can still be different. I sincerely appreciate both the Byzantine and Latin religious arts when they make use of the proper symbologies, a thing that is now very difficult to achieve in newly-built churches of the Latin Church due to V2.
I join in your prayers for a restoration of the ad Orientem Mass. Anyway, am I wrong if I say that the same tendency of a High and Low Church in Anglicanism is creeping into the Roman Catholic Church, despite the intensive work of Pope Benedict XVI? I say this because we can find both a tendency to modernism (charismatic orders, "low" masses in the vernacular with Gospel choruses, priests celebrating like pastors "versus populum" etc) on one side, and an attempt to restore a traditionalist Catholic piety (strict religious rules, "high" masses in Latin with Gregorian Chant, priests celebrating "ad Orientem" etc) on the other. Would you apply, as I do, these tendencies to the progressive incorporation of a flourishing relativism into the Roman Catholic Church, as it happened in the Anglican Communion due to Protestant contaminations in the past centuries?

In Christ,  Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
monkvasyl
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: UOC 0f USA
Posts: 653



« Reply #67 on: October 15, 2009, 08:56:12 AM »

When I was a novice in the Franciscans, I remember my Novice Master telling me that the Liturgy originally produced at Vatican II was rejected due to it being totally radical.  The Liturgy that came out was a compromise between the conservatives and the liberals.
Logged

The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2009, 10:50:46 AM »

When I was a novice in the Franciscans, I remember my Novice Master telling me that the Liturgy originally produced at Vatican II was rejected due to it being totally radical.  The Liturgy that came out was a compromise between the conservatives and the liberals.
...and thus it is too liberal for the conservatives, and too conservative for the liberals LOL
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,646


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #69 on: October 15, 2009, 11:57:11 AM »

There are definitely what Anglicans call churchmanships (not only different ceremonial but rival theologies, some of them un-Catholic) in the RC Church. The Tridentine people are roughly equivalent to Anglo-Catholics like the Orthodox are. (One big difference: in Anglican culture Anglo-Catholics are often gay and practise that undercover. So you see lots of bachelors in their churches and not a lot of married people or kids.) Low Church historically meant Evangelical, which in the Church of England meant Calvinist: Presbyterian theology with the Book of Common Prayer liturgy and the minister in surplice and black scarf. The closest equivalent to that among RCs might be conservative Novus Ordo especially the now-waning charismatic movement: theologically conservative but not very liturgical. Modernists are Broad Churchmen, the difference again being Anglicans often have better liturgical sense (they don't hate nice things in church like liberal RCs do) although as has been mentioned 'your mileage may vary' locally (Episcopalians can be old hippie flakes).

I'd read that a draft of the new Mass was done at the Vatican shortly after the council and the clergy reviewing it didn't like it at all.

It seems to me, though, that the compromise Mass was the 1965 modifications to the 1962 Missal. Which wasn't that bad.

The Novus Ordo was in practice an unconditional victory for the liberals even though many of the old practices weren't in fact banned.

(Two compromises I know of: the writers of the NO wanted to get rid of the mediæval Orate, fratres and Ecce agnus Dei verses and responses but they were kept: they're among the few congregational responses in the NO that are uniquely [Roman] Catholic.)

Of course Orthodoxy has churchmanships as well: shades of difference from ROCOR to the OCA to the Antiochians for example, or from natural, un-self-consciously traditional ethnics to scrupulously rule-following converts to rather assimilated ethnics, all of them well to the right of the Novus Ordo and the Episcopalians, thank God.
Logged

AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #70 on: October 15, 2009, 02:34:06 PM »

I'd read that a draft of the new Mass was done at the Vatican shortly after the council and the clergy reviewing it didn't like it at all.

It seems to me, though, that the compromise Mass was the 1965 modifications to the 1962 Missal. Which wasn't that bad.

The Novus Ordo was in practice an unconditional victory for the liberals even though many of the old practices weren't in fact banned.

Sincerely, I think the true problem is with the 1969-1970 version of the Novus Ordo, that approved by Paul VI, which introduced the worst effects, such as the versus populum Mass, which were absent in the previous Missals (including that of 1962 by Pope John XXIII). Also, the few modifications in the 1962 Missal are just limited to the addition of st. Joseph in the Confiteor (which the 1970 version has reduced to a few lines), to the elimination of the anti-semitic word "perfidis" referenced to the Jewish people on Good Friday (which was an obvious change after the events of WW2) and the suppression of the "Last Gospel", that is the practice of singing the Hymn to the Logos of st. John evangelist after the Ite, missa est. These changes didn't affect the nature and the solemnity of the rites. On the contrary, the new orientation of the priest, the use of a symplistic language, the introduction of THREE different canons for the Mass, the translation into the vernacular, the use of low mass made ordinary, etc... have made the entire rite a Protestantized ceremony. To add some other elements for discussion, all the editions of the Ordo Missae up to 1969 included a double version of the Confiteor which is a true public confession and a beautiful rite in its original. The double version presented a form used by the priest PRIOR to the celebration of the Holy Mysteries, so that the priest ask forgiveness before the Confiteor of the faithful. This rite made the role of the priest apparent while the use of pronouncing the Confiteor both priest and assembly altogether reduced its value and massified priest and laypeople, putting them on the same level - a consequence of the "universal priesthood" concept.
Also consider the changes in the Confiteor as it appeared in the two editions of the Missal:
Quote
    I confess to Almighty God, to blessed Mary ever Virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the Saints, and to you brethren, that I have sinned exceedingly, in thought, word and deed: through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech blessed Mary ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the Saints, and you brethren, to pray to the Lord our God for me.[2]
Quote
     I confess to almighty God,
    and to you, my brothers and sisters,
    that I have sinned through my own fault,
    in my thoughts and in my words,
    in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do;
    and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
    all the angels and saints,
    and to you, my brothers and sisters,
    to pray for me to the Lord our God. 

You can clearly see the differences BEFORE and AFTER Protestantization of the Mass in 1970...

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
John Larocque
Catholic
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox
Posts: 530


« Reply #71 on: October 15, 2009, 02:52:22 PM »

A handy checklist, courtesy of Michael Davies, comparing the Novus Ordo to Cranmer. Those not familiar with the history of the Latin rite might find this list worth a good read:
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/ordo.htm

The confiteor is optional and not every Mass I have been at recites it. In Canada, we use the Apostle's creed, not the Nicene/Constantiniople. When I went directly from Anglican to Catholic in 1984, it was one of the first things I noticed. (Our family did not formally convert to Anglicanism - but we attended an Anglican parish for about half a dozen years including Anglican first communion). Of course, the Apostle's creed is easier to remember, but it's one of the main differences between American and Canadian Masses.

Of note to "Western Rite" historians, when the Russians got ahold of the of the Cranmer text, they inserted back some of what had been removed. I've never been able to find a complete list of the "St. Tikhon rite" changes, but it was kind of Cranmer in reverse.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 02:57:51 PM by John Larocque » Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2009, 04:14:35 PM »

It seems that RCs are too concerned with charity missions and pro-life activism then with religious education for the faithful and a correct divine worship.

While I don't think that Orthodoxy in America has jumped on the "social gospel" bandwagon just yet, as far as catechizing goes I have yet to hear an Orthodox priest encourage a single person to read the Bible on a regular basis, or for anyone to bring one with them to the liturgy.  Our parish offers a "Bible Study", but really no one goes.

I repeatedly tell my people to read their bible.
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2009, 04:27:52 PM »

Unfortunately, I have heard some more "academic" Orthodox, and even some not-so-academic, with a move to "simplify" things on the basis of askesis.  To get back to more "simple" liturgical vestments and such (sound familiar?).  Many of them want to simplify the church more--less icons (would not go well in my church--our walls are filled with them--I would say 150 icons and it is not a large church), "simple" structure to the temple (low ceilings, less room).   Why does there need to be a tension between the aesthetic and ascetic?     

There are definitely what Anglicans call churchmanships (not only different ceremonial but rival theologies, some of them un-Catholic) in the RC Church. The Tridentine people are roughly equivalent to Anglo-Catholics like the Orthodox are. (One big difference: in Anglican culture Anglo-Catholics are often gay and practise that undercover. So you see lots of bachelors in their churches and not a lot of married people or kids.) Low Church historically meant Evangelical, which in the Church of England meant Calvinist: Presbyterian theology with the Book of Common Prayer liturgy and the minister in surplice and black scarf. The closest equivalent to that among RCs might be conservative Novus Ordo especially the now-waning charismatic movement: theologically conservative but not very liturgical. Modernists are Broad Churchmen, the difference again being Anglicans often have better liturgical sense (they don't hate nice things in church like liberal RCs do) although as has been mentioned 'your mileage may vary' locally (Episcopalians can be old hippie flakes).

I'd read that a draft of the new Mass was done at the Vatican shortly after the council and the clergy reviewing it didn't like it at all.

It seems to me, though, that the compromise Mass was the 1965 modifications to the 1962 Missal. Which wasn't that bad.

The Novus Ordo was in practice an unconditional victory for the liberals even though many of the old practices weren't in fact banned.

(Two compromises I know of: the writers of the NO wanted to get rid of the mediæval Orate, fratres and Ecce agnus Dei verses and responses but they were kept: they're among the few congregational responses in the NO that are uniquely [Roman] Catholic.)

Of course Orthodoxy has churchmanships as well: shades of difference from ROCOR to the OCA to the Antiochians for example, or from natural, un-self-consciously traditional ethnics to scrupulously rule-following converts to rather assimilated ethnics, all of them well to the right of the Novus Ordo and the Episcopalians, thank God.
Logged
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,646


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2009, 05:46:10 PM »

I forgot about that brand of Orthodox churchman, Father, the New Skete-ish sort-of liberals. (The kind who go to ecumenical conferences and tell the old liberal RCs how marvellous Vatican II was for being so Eastern.) Probably because there aren't that many of them and they definitely aren't in power. Still something to beware. Somewhere in the US is a Greek parish church that's 'Jetsons' ultra-modern with hardly any iconostasis yet even there the altar is far more traditional than a lot of Western places.
Logged

ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2009, 12:00:17 AM »

I forgot about that brand of Orthodox churchman, Father, the New Skete-ish sort-of liberals. (The kind who go to ecumenical conferences and tell the old liberal RCs how marvellous Vatican II was for being so Eastern.) Probably because there aren't that many of them and they definitely aren't in power. Still something to beware. Somewhere in the US is a Greek parish church that's 'Jetsons' ultra-modern with hardly any iconostasis yet even there the altar is far more traditional than a lot of Western places.

Is it only a manner of time? Perhaps. This is what fear the most in leaving the Roman Church is waking up years from now to find it wasn't simply the failure of the Western Churches but the length of exposure to that corrosive anti-sacral secular western mindset.  Cry
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2009, 03:12:24 PM »

Just thought I would let you all know that I'm attending Latin Mass regularly, and WOW!!! What a difference. I just can't wait to see how His Holiness' reforms affect the Liturgy over the next few years.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,948



« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2009, 01:22:52 AM »

Sincerely, the best architect and artist for a religious faith is the one that shares 100% of that faith. Jews just couldn't understand Christian art, and they would make a synagogue of any church they want to build. Synagogues are completely empty of any sacred picture, so we'll have only void walls. It is a problem of their religion that they just can't portray characters from the Bible... and how could they portay Jesus himself, whom they consider an impostor, with a symbology which acknowledges him as God himself? The same for Muslims, who use to decorate their mosques with floreal motifs but are forbidden to represent living creatures (I mean animals, humans, angels and of course God himself).
The same is valid for the contrary: we are so used to Christian art (and I'm referring only to non-iconoclastic Christians of course) that an artist building a synagogue would fail to understand the absence of pictures in it. The temple is a place *taken apart* (from the Greek "temno" which means to cut off, to separate) for the divinity, and as lubeltri, Papist and I already have said, temple building is like iconography... it is a sacred art.
I think the only ones who would benefit an artistic work from a Jewish architect might be a iconoclastic Protestant church, but still I don't see how that could work. Which doesn't mean that Jewish architects aren't good artists, but just that they make wonderful synagogues, but they couldn't make a good church (this is my opinion of course). The fact that a temple is as sacred as an icon appears clearly by the fact that the church must be consecrated by a bishop, like an icon, to the matter with grace, otherwise it's just a building, exactly like icons are beautiful but useless pictures until their blessed. The work of the artist - be he iconographer or architect - should be to prepare not a piece of art, but a religious place or object... and the Church has the task to overlook the genuinity and validity of that temple or picture to become holy... which is something the Pentateuch clearly tries to transmit with all those concerns with purity, perfection and holiness.

In Christ,   Alex

I think you are being extremely unfair.  A couple of examples.  FIrst, the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem built by the Umayyad Caliphs based in Damascus modeled the mosque perfectly along Byzantine church aesthetic designs.  Granted, it was not built as a Christian place of worship (It was  built to give the Byzantine Emperor the finger in a way), but they had the ethos.  Here is a more modern and local example.  A jew built a synagogue modeled after Hagia Sophia in Constantinople with the minarets placed there by the Turjks.  This synagogue was bought by the Greek Orthodox faithful and still serves as their temple to this day.  Yes, the icons were added later, but though the faith of the architect may come into question, it shouldn't necessarily be a "break the deal" situation.



Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,181


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2009, 12:20:19 PM »

Some posters have already commented to the effect that a somewhat reformed Novus Ordo is the desirable thing to work towards, and I agree.  I do agree that there was some throwing of the baby out with the bath water with the Vatican II reforms.  There are traditional elements that should be brought back.  For example: the priest facing the altar most of the time, more use of incense, chanting instead of reciting ("high-massy" qualities, if you will), and traditional chant.  A new English language translation is slated to be introduced into much of the English-speaking world next year.  I think this will be a great improvement on the paraphrase that is used today.  Otherwise, the prayers used in the new mass are not untraditional.  In fact, they may well be in essence far more traditional than those employed in the so-called Tridentine rite.  (I am not saying that I really like or see no problems with good Western liturgy, but I am of the opinion that the Orthodox have to meet Westerners halfway on this.  But this is a subject for another thread, perhaps one dealing with the Western rite in Orthodoxy.)

My criticisms of the Tridentine mass early in this thread have basically been ignored by a good many posting here.  So be it.  The fact remains that in spite of the way this mass can be served with great beauty, it is profoundly clerically elitist.  Tell me why it is such a great thing that the entire canon of the mass is whispered quietly by the priest and a deacon or acolyte, along with many other important parts of the liturgy.  The only way that laity have any clue about what is going on is by watching some of  the movements of the clergy or by listening to bells ringing.  No wonder that in the past it was so common to have laypeople attend mass and simply ignore the proceedings and do their own private devotions like the rosary, since they were also ignored!  (I should add that providing a translation is not the same thing as providing the possibility to participate in one's own tongue.)

Those who say that Latin chant should not be sung in the vernacular are either missing the entire point of liturgy (the common work of the people of God...hello?) or are simply elitists who don't care about whether or not the great unwashed masses can actually go to church and pray with understanding.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 12:36:18 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,181


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2009, 01:09:17 PM »

I forgot about that brand of Orthodox churchman, Father, the New Skete-ish sort-of liberals. (The kind who go to ecumenical conferences and tell the old liberal RCs how marvellous Vatican II was for being so Eastern.) Probably because there aren't that many of them and they definitely aren't in power. Still something to beware. Somewhere in the US is a Greek parish church that's 'Jetsons' ultra-modern with hardly any iconostasis yet even there the altar is far more traditional than a lot of Western places.

To say that everything was bad about Vatican II, and nothing good at all, is to not to have seriously considered all of the evidence.  Yes, many abuses have happened in the Catholic Church because of a direct result of the council.  Yes, the very idea of an aggiornamento is in some ways heretical and anti-traditional.  But some things that were positive or perhaps neutral also came about as a result of Vatican II.  Latin ecclesiology has stepped closer to the Eastern view of the Church; probably as much as it can, given the current power structure.  Granted, the "anything goes" kind of nonsense that has come about as a result of the council has been  very damaging to the Catholic Church and for its relations with Orthodoxy.  But tell me: can you honestly say that the pre-1960's Catholic ethos was better with its almost fascist view of clerical authority?  Where people did what the priest told them to do "or else", with no explanation furnished?  Thousands of disaffected Catholics will tell you that this is not preferrable.  Things seem to me to be so very polarised in the Catholic Church in many ways: one is either "conservative" or "liberal" or a "traditionalist", and ne'er shall any of these camps meet.  ISTM that the Latin Church needs to find a gracious orthodoxy which is traditional and humane at the same time.  It needs to come to understand the concept of economia while rejecting the very idea that one has to accomodate worldly ideals and principles.  Indeed, I believe that this is something that all Christians need to strive for.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 03:29:15 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,948



« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2009, 01:34:19 PM »

Bob,

Are you equally outraged by all of the silent prayers in the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great?

There are parts of the mass that are reserved for clerics and not for the laity.  Common work does not mean that we are all doing exactly the same thing at exactly the same thing.  The insinuation that the clergy is somehow concealing things from the people is ridiculous.

I guess I'm an elitist as I do favor Greek (or Arabic) for Byzantine chant.  That chanting style is metrically geared towards those languages and not towards English.  Same thing with Gregorian plainsong.  It's best suited to Latin and not to English.  Besides, I don't think it's very difficult to pick up a little Latin for the ordinaries of the Mass.  I knew it by heart when I was 15 and I had never taken Latin before nor was I even Roman Catholic.  Similarly, I don't think it would be an issue if people knew some characteristic phrases of Greek and Latin beyond just "Lord, have mercy."  This is an aesthetics issue.  It can be corrected with the use of polyphony and other 4 part singing instead where English can be freely used. 
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,063



« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2009, 02:27:23 PM »

Bob,

Are you equally outraged by all of the silent prayers in the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great?


While not directed towards me, I shall answer!  I am disturbed by the increasing number of prayers that are read aloud in the two aforementioned Divine Liturgies.  Not only does it chop up the flow or the prescribed liturgy it also takes away from the service as being a work of the people.  While we're praying To thee oh lord, the priest is praying silently for us, together we are praying as one.  He sings the concluding prayer as to sum up the two prayers that were going on.  What's next? Sing an antiphon and stop and have the priest recite the prayer of the antiphon aloud before the Little Litany?
My LEAST favourite is the Deacon's proclamation of Amens at the Epiclesis by the people.  The Epiclesis is to be said silently while the people sing "We Praise Thee, Tebe Pojem."

And actually I was thinking about the current Roman Missal yesterday for some reason.  There aren't any silent prayers except a few sentences during the communion rite...  if I remember correctly the minister picks up the chalice, recites a quiet prayer then does the same with the paten.  That's it! Oh except I think if the minister blesses the deacon to read the Gospel. 
The silent prayers being said while the faithful are praying their appointed prayers equates into a work of the people... after all isn't that what Liturgy is about Wink?
Logged

lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2009, 02:43:08 PM »

I completely agree. A lot of this is "active" participation run amok.
Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,948



« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2009, 04:06:58 PM »

[I am disturbed by the increasing number of prayers that are read aloud in the two aforementioned Divine Liturgies.  Not only does it chop up the flow or the prescribed liturgy it also takes away from the service as being a work of the people.  While we're praying To thee oh lord, the priest is praying silently for us, together we are praying as one.  He sings the concluding prayer as to sum up the two prayers that were going on.  What's next? Sing an antiphon and stop and have the priest recite the prayer of the antiphon aloud before the Little Litany?
My LEAST favourite is the Deacon's proclamation of Amens at the Epiclesis by the people.  The Epiclesis is to be said silently while the people sing "We Praise Thee, Tebe Pojem."

EXACTLY!  I knew you and I could agree on something username!  You're back on my Christmas Card list.  It's this democratization, if not straight up Protestantization of the Liturgy, that makes me want to walk out while people are doing the Deacon's part! 
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,063



« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2009, 04:44:25 PM »

I completely agree. A lot of this is "active" participation run amok.

Wow! We actually agree on something!  I got Orthodoc and Deacon Lance to agree on another thread.
And me and scamandrius are in agreement on this! I'm feeling all nobel peace prize like Smiley
Logged

Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,181


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2009, 07:04:31 PM »

Are you equally outraged by all of the silent prayers in the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great?

Somehow, I knew that this would come up.  There is no comparison at all to the Tridentine canon of the mass and the anaphora of the two Byzantine liturgies when it comes to what is read silently by the priest.  In the worst cases in Byzantine practice, large parts of the anaphora are chanted and sung audibly, with the priest's prayers (unfortunately) recited inaudibly.  In the Tridentine rite the entire anaphora is recited silently, with no participation of the people, without exception!  If you want to suggest that this is what should be done in Eastern churches, then we can end the discussion now. 

Quote
There are parts of the mass that are reserved for clerics and not for the laity.

Are you suggesting that the entire anaphora is the property of the clergy only?  Beyond the prayer of the Cherubic Hymn and a few others that are clearly prayers specifically for the priest or deacon, which prayers in the Byzantine liturgy would you say are "only for clergy"? 

Quote
  Common work does not mean that we are all doing exactly the same thing at exactly the same thing. 

Who said that we should all be doing exactly the same thing?  What is not in doubt is that we should all be concentrating on the same thing, and that is the offering of the gifts.  If someone is standing there saying the rosary to themselves while the anaphora is in progress, then this is wrong.  Period. 

Quote
The insinuation that the clergy is somehow concealing things from the people is ridiculous.

It is painfully obvious that this has indeed been the case in the Western Church and arguably so in the Eastern Church at various places and times, to anyone who has the smallest knowledge of Church history.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 07:08:07 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,063



« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2009, 07:20:56 PM »

Pravoslavbob is right and I did want to address that difference.
In the Liturgies of Sts Basil and John the faithful are singing prayers WHILE the priest is reciting his silently.
In the 1962 and prior Roman Catholic Missals (aka tridentine masses) the faithful didn't participate at all, except by being there.  Sure if it is a sung low mass or high mass the choir sings but it doesn't mesh with what the priest is doing.  Like when they sing the Gloria the priest has ALREADY recited the gloria!!  But when the priest in a St. John liturgy is reciting say, prayer of the first antiphon.. indeed the faithful are singing the first antiphon.
Logged

Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,181


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2009, 08:20:38 PM »

I am disturbed by the increasing number of prayers that are read aloud in the two aforementioned Divine Liturgies. 

That's too bad, because historically, this was what was insisted on.  The emperor decreed that all prayers of the liturgy should be chanted aubibly, but over time this was forgotten or deliberately ignored and these prayers eventually became "private" prayers of the priest.

Quote
Not only does it chop up the flow or the prescribed liturgy it also takes away from the service as being a work of the people.  While we're praying To thee oh lord, the priest is praying silently for us, together we are praying as one.  He sings the concluding prayer as to sum up the two prayers that were going on.

This is a nice idea, but it is not the opinion held by liturgical scholars.  If we truly adhere to the lex orandi, lex credendi school of thought surrounding the nature of liturgy, why would we insist that some prayers are just for a few members of the Church?  If the liturgy is truly the greatest teaching tool that the Church has to show what She is all about, why are we depriving the laity of the "meat and potatoes" of this teaching?

Quote
What's next? Sing an antiphon and stop and have the priest recite the prayer of the antiphon aloud before the Little Litany?

I have seen something like this done, and it seems to me to work quite well.  The deacon intones "let us pray to the Lord!", the people/choir respond with "Lord, have mercy" and the priest chants the entire prayer.  I have heard it said that the little litanies at the beginning of the liturgy are degenerate (and added to cover up the fact that illiterate priests could not read the prayers of the antiphons), and I would tend to agree.  What possible purpose do they serve except for filling up space?  I am not dead against them, or anything.  I think it is fine to have them there, but at least end with the prayer of the antiphon said aloud, since this is the important thing.  

Quote
My LEAST favourite is the Deacon's proclamation of Amens at the Epiclesis by the people.  The Epiclesis is to be said silently while the people sing "We Praise Thee, Tebe Pojem."

I don't mean to be presumptuous, but maybe you believe that this is the case because this is what you have always seen done from the time that you were a boy, or for other reasons that you have not disclosed.  And they may well teach at some seminaries that this is how it "should" be done, but I maintain the ancient view that this is an abuse and an innovation.


« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 09:38:24 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,181


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2009, 08:35:23 PM »

In the Liturgies of Sts Basil and John the faithful are singing prayers WHILE the priest is reciting his silently.
In the 1962 and prior Roman Catholic Missals (aka tridentine masses) the faithful didn't participate at all, except by being there.  Sure if it is a sung low mass or high mass the choir sings but it doesn't mesh with what the priest is doing.  Like when they sing the Gloria the priest has ALREADY recited the gloria!! 

Yes, you make a very important point, Username!, in expanding on the nature of the Tridentine rite.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 09:37:53 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Tags: Catholic Church councils Western liturgy Tridentine rite ecclesiology Vatican II anaphora canon of the mass 
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.287 seconds with 117 queries.