Reincarnation?

[Jetavan]

“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

There's more than one judgement after death: there is the particular judgement right after death, and the final judgement at the end of time. This fact doesn't prove reincarnation, of course.

[xariskai]

Personally, I think it's demons...trying to break the faith of those around by convincing them of reincarnation.

There is no such thing.

That is definitely one theory- it just seems "wrong" that children would be involved. Not that demons can't attack anyone at any age, but I would like to think that God wouldn't permit that against a 2 year old.

But how might we know such would not be "permitted?"

Lk 9:38f. "A man in the crowd called out, 'Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child. A spirit seizes him and he suddenly screams; it throws him into convulsions so that he foams at the mouth. It scarcely ever leaves him and is destroying him.'"

Not to make light of something as horrible as demonic oppression or possession, but sometimes if one's eyes are open he/she is very often led to wonder why things that can seem much worse than the darkest of all possible imaginings do indeed seem to be "permitted."

[Jetavan]

If the body is a part of what makes us who we are, then there can be no reincarnation.  If all humanity is is intangible, then there can be. 

There are forms of reincarnation in which the soul and body remain one.

[primuspilus]

If the body is a part of what makes us who we are, then there can be no reincarnation.  If all humanity is is intangible, then there can be. 

There are forms of reincarnation in which the soul and body remain one.

As was stated, I'm sure, by a Mississippi trailer park chick who swears she is Livia Augusta reincarnated 

PP

[witega]

“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

There's more than one judgement after death: there is the particular judgement right after death, and the final judgement at the end of time. This fact doesn't prove reincarnation, of course.

The quantifier in that verse is not attached to judgment. There could be one, two, or 563 judgements and it wouldn't change the significance of the what comes first: "It is appointed unto men once to die."

[JamesRottnek]

If the body is a part of what makes us who we are, then there can be no reincarnation.  If all humanity is is intangible, then there can be. 

There are forms of reincarnation in which the soul and body remain one.

This, I have not heard before.

[Jetavan]

“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

There's more than one judgement after death: there is the particular judgement right after death, and the final judgement at the end of time. This fact doesn't prove reincarnation, of course.

The quantifier in that verse is not attached to judgment. There could be one, two, or 563 judgements and it wouldn't change the significance of the what comes first: "It is appointed unto men once to die."

And yet, Paul says, "I die daily" (1st Corinthians 15:31).

[Jetavan]

If the body is a part of what makes us who we are, then there can be no reincarnation.  If all humanity is is intangible, then there can be. 

There are forms of reincarnation in which the soul and body remain one.

This, I have not heard before.

I don't argue that the Church should *teach* reincarnation, but that is a different issue from whether reincarnation is inherently incompatible with various Christian doctrines. Maybe some forms of reincarnation are not incompatible with the whole of doctrine, but that would not mean reincarnation should be taught.

[Manalive]

If the body is a part of what makes us who we are, then there can be no reincarnation.  If all humanity is is intangible, then there can be.  

There are forms of reincarnation in which the soul and body remain one.

This, I have not heard before.

I don't argue that the Church should *teach* reincarnation, but that is a different issue from whether reincarnation is inherently incompatible with various Christian doctrines. Maybe some forms of reincarnation are not incompatible with the whole of doctrine, but that would not mean reincarnation should be taught.

For what purpose and who's benefit would introducing reincarnation into Orthodoxy make any sense? The Fathers don't teach reincarnation and among all the gnostic sects that it was taught, they were condemned. It's innovational and doesn't belong in the faith handed down. It is already incompatible.

[Jetavan]

If the body is a part of what makes us who we are, then there can be no reincarnation.  If all humanity is is intangible, then there can be.  

There are forms of reincarnation in which the soul and body remain one.

This, I have not heard before.

I don't argue that the Church should *teach* reincarnation, but that is a different issue from whether reincarnation is inherently incompatible with various Christian doctrines. Maybe some forms of reincarnation are not incompatible with the whole of doctrine, but that would not mean reincarnation should be taught.

For what purpose and who's benefit would introducing reincarnation into Orthodoxy make any sense?

Even if it did make sense, that would be no reason introduce it into Orthodoxy. I agree that it should not be introduced into Orthodoxy.

The Fathers don't teach reincarnation

They certainly don't, but then again, they did not spend a lot of time talking about it and addressing the many different versions of how the mechanics of reincarnation might take place.

and among all the gnostic sects that it was taught, they were condemned.

And it was understandably condemned in that gnostic context, since gnostics also tended to teach that matter is evil. If the only reincarnational system you are exposed to, is one that links reincarnation with "mal-materialism" ("matter is evil" idea), then it would be logical to condemn reincarnation. However, gnostic reincarnation is not the only version of reincarnation.

It's innovational and doesn't belong in the faith handed down. It is already incompatible.

One could say similar things about the theory of evolution: it's an innovation, and it's not part of the faith that is necessary for salvation. And all that would be true. But those issues are different from the issue of whether among all theories of evolution (of which there are many), there is not one that is compatible with Christian doctrine. I would suggest that there is a theory of evolution (e.g., one that sees God as the Guiding Principle of the evolutionary process) that is compatible with Christian doctrine -- and while recognizing that such a theory of evolution is *still* an "innovation" and "not part of the faith" that is necessary for salvation.

[minasoliman]

Perhaps it would be better if you enumerate the different types of reincarnation and explain each one of them, because people here are simply thinking of one type of reincarnation when it is mentioned.

[Jetavan]

Perhaps it would be better if you enumerate the different types of reincarnation and explain each one of them, because people here are simply thinking of one type of reincarnation when it is mentioned.

The type of reincarnation I specifically have in mind involves the idea that the contents of the mind (ideas, thoughts, feelings, etc.) are simply forms of 'matter' -- very fine, very subtle, but still 'matter', and thus operating somewhat like atoms operate. In terms of death, this would mean that a particular person's contents of mind -- like the person's bodily atoms -- are co-opted by other persons after that particular person dies. The 'soul' of that particular person would go on (hades, purgatory, e.g.), but his bodily atoms and mental contents -- since they are 'matter' -- would remain in the earthly realm, and be absorbed by the body and mind of living persons. Some of these living persons could then be said to be "reincarnations" (or "re-embodiments") of previously living persons' atoms and mental content, leading to possible "past-life" memories and so forth.

[witega]

Perhaps it would be better if you enumerate the different types of reincarnation and explain each one of them, because people here are simply thinking of one type of reincarnation when it is mentioned.

The type of reincarnation I specifically have in mind involves the idea that the contents of the mind (ideas, thoughts, feelings, etc.) are simply forms of 'matter' -- very fine, very subtle, but still 'matter', and thus operating somewhat like atoms operate. In terms of death, this would mean that a particular person's contents of mind -- like the person's bodily atoms -- are co-opted by other persons after that particular person dies. The 'soul' of that particular person would go on (hades, purgatory, e.g.), but his bodily atoms and mental contents -- since they are 'matter' -- would remain in the earthly realm, and be absorbed by the body and mind of living persons. Some of these living persons could then be said to be "reincarnations" (or "re-embodiments") of previously living persons' atoms and mental content, leading to possible "past-life" memories and so forth.

I don't buy it (except in the very unsubtle form that the chemicals and neurons of the brain where memories are encoded, break down like the rest of the body and get returned 'to the earth'), but I'd have to agree that such a belief, either as a belief or if it were ever demonstrated scientifically, would not be a contradiction of the Church's traditional rejection of reincarnation or the verse about being appointed 'once to die'.

[That person]

The concept of reincarnation is incompatible with Orthodox Christianity because our bodies are not passive receptacles of spirits or souls. They are rather an integral portion of our very being. To have a "soul" united to multiple bodies seems heretical.

A very good point. Even if I did believe in reincarnation, I think I'd put about as much stock in this book as I do in "Heaven Is for Real" now.

[Varangos]

For us as Christians our hope is in the resurection, not reincarnation, when our bodies will be restored in perfection and united with our souls once and forever.

I understand why one would hope for reincarnation, even in a "christian" context, since it would let us "try" agian at living a good life.  But every day, every moment, is a chance to start anew and serve God.

Aside from being completely heretical, no matter what any psuedo-scientist or anyone may say, it is erroneous and incompatible with the Gospel.


 

[Alveus Lacuna]

Some posit that St. John the Baptist was the reincarnation of the Holy Prophet Elias/Elijah.

And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Other references to this is the other Gospels as well.

Of course Elias was "taken up" and never died, so this makes for more head-scratching.

[LizaSymonenko]

...hasn't died, YET.

[JamesRottnek]

Some also posit that aliens built the pyramids.

[Alveus Lacuna]

...hasn't died, YET.

Touché! So maybe there is soul travel and time travel involved! We will get to the bottom of this.

[Jetavan]

Tom Hanks wants to be one of the Wright brothers in his next life. Halle Berry and Ben Whishaw would like to come back in feline form. Susan Sarandon wants to remain a woman, and she'd like a great set of singing pipes.

The stars of "Cloud Atlas" – along with British author David Mitchell, who wrote the novel that inspired the genre-bending epic about souls returning and intertwining over the centuries – shared their beliefs and disbeliefs about reincarnation as the film heads to U.S. theaters Friday.

Hanks himself doesn't buy into reincarnation, while Berry, Whishaw, Mitchell, Sarandon and co-stars Hugo Weaving and Jim Sturgess either believe or at least think it's possible that souls come back for an encore.
....
Hanks (interviewed alongside Berry): One of the Wright brothers. I'd love to be the first guy to see the earth from the sky. I think that'd be great. Either one, Orville or Wilbur. Who was the funniest? I want to be the funny Wright brother.

Berry: I'm going to choose an animal (Hanks rolls his eyes). Probably a lion. King of the jungle. Some animal roaming the earth.

Hanks: Let's say I'm going to buy the reincarnation thing. I'm taking animals out of it.

Berry: Why?

Hanks: You have never seen a happy old lion, and I would like to be somebody who can be happy when they're old. Old lions, you know what they do? They've got busted teeth, and they've got ulcers somewhere. They can't catch anything. They get thrown out of the pride.

Berry: How do you know that?

Hanks: Because I've seen old lions! I've been to the zoo!

[tweety234]

One thing we have to wonder is, in the context of Christianity, why would there be reincarnation? I can't seem to come up with a decent reason why the God of orthodox Christianity would have created the reality of reincarnation. And if there is no reason why He would have done it, you really have to question whether He actually did or not.

why if I question it? will I find an answer?

Also a possible reason why he would do it, is because he is merciful and he wants to give us as many opportunities as possibly can be given to seek him.

[tweety234]

There is no Christian Theory of Reincarnation.  You have this one life, so you better do your best with it.

As for demons not possessing children...as if they were too polite to do so....why is then that prior to baptism (even infant baptism) the individual goes through an exorcism?  Just in case....

So, this whole reincarnation/rebirth, people reliving previous lives, people being able to talk to your dead relatives who are floating around you, etc....this is all work of demons...to confuse you....

It seems they are making headway, as some devout Orthodox are believing in reincarnation.

Christ lived as a man on this earth...He never mentioned reincarnation....His soul did not come back in another body....He came to His disciples with the same body and soul...and He ascended to Heaven as such.

That should say it all.

were missing information about jesus life from 12 -30 I believe it was. Who is to say we are not missing any more. And as for jesus resurrection. He was God. He didn't want another body. Now. I am not saying I believe in reincarnation. But I am open to the possibility. And I don't see it as a bad thing if it turns out to be true. But then, no dead came back personally to tell us anything, regarding what happens after death.

 You have been asked not to propagate non-Orthodox teachings in some sections of the forum. 14 days of moderation - Michał Kalina.

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